AoD Review: Tokyo Godfathers

[Chris Beveridge]

Review (http://www.animeondvd.com/reviews2/disc_reviews/2871.php)

[neaux]

while I didnt get this on dvd.. its now available for rental off of Time Warner Cable's icontrol movies.

I plan on watching this this weekend!! XD

[michaelwb]

I really enjoyed to this movie.

I think a lot of folks stumbled in how to describe it because it kind of merges different elements from separate genres without really merging the genres. It's really more of a old American Classic Christmas style (I actually prefer the phrase magical realism) movie combined with John Ford's Three Godfathers (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040064/). (Yet another Japanese film influenced by John Ford!) But unlike a lot of old American Christmas movies it has a lot more realism and grittiness to it.

I really like how they blended those three streams together into one interesting film. If you haven't seen it, buy it or at least rent it folks!

Bah! This one has been on my shelf for a while now because I'm trying to talk my GF (not a fan of anime) into watching it with me, but she hasn't been to receptive of the idea yet. I think now I'll just have to watch it without her. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[bakafoo]

So does this mean, you don't have any review pile(s) anymore? /images/graemlins/wink.gif Congrats!!!

[indigo0086]

how do they translate "Okama" in the dvd. I am going to buy it next paycheck because I love it.

[populuxe]

You say you watched it in it's original language of Japanese, but isn't that the only language that's available? Without an English dub, I'm not buying it.

[Rogueman_8]

Wow! Chris finally reviewed this. Think I've watched this 3X since getting it in April. Good stuff. I'd place Kon's movies w/ MA #1, PB #2 and this last personally. Still good and enjoyable though. I loved the interview how the cameraman focused more on Miyuki's seiyuu (Aya Okamoto) than Kon imself. She's very FFIINNE btw /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif.

[AbeChinchilla]

Rented this at Hollywood Video a few weeks ago and REALLY enjoyed it. A great film indeed. I just HAD to get my friends to watch it, and they did. They enjoyed it, just like I knew they would. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Nice review too. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[michaelwb]

[ QUOTE ]
martialstax said:
You say you watched it in it's original language of Japanese, but isn't that the only language that's available? Without an English dub, I'm not buying it.

[/ QUOTE ]

No dub, it was a subtitled release only. Still it's worth it. Rent it at least.

[Chris Beveridge]

[ QUOTE ]
martialstax said:
You say you watched it in it's original language of Japanese, but isn't that the only language that's available? Without an English dub, I'm not buying it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, if a title came out and it was only in English but it was one of the best things around, what would you say to the sub-only fan?

[populuxe]

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
[ QUOTE ]
martialstax said:
You say you watched it in it's original language of Japanese, but isn't that the only language that's available? Without an English dub, I'm not buying it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now, if a title came out and it was only in English but it was one of the best things around, what would you say to the sub-only fan?

[/ QUOTE ]

That they're free to buy it or not buy as they see fit. Just as I don't buy Japanese-only releases, I don't buy English-only releases, either.

[christianlf]

[ QUOTE ]
indigo0086 said:
how do they translate "Okama" in the dvd. I am going to buy it next paycheck because I love it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe as "fag" or possibly a "faggot" or two thrown in there (I honestly can't remember if they used the full one, but it's possible).

[christianlf]

I am a huge fan of Kon's work. I love this movie. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

I do think it's a shame some people won't buy it (and Millennium Actress for that matter) because of no dub, as they're missing out on great films, but from my standpoint, they're foreign movies. The companies have no obligation to make a dub for every foreign film they put out, and the consumer has no obligation to buy it, so I guess dub-only fans will speak with their dollar...I still think it's a crying shame, though.

As I hear lots of people saying that most anime fans watch it dubbed (though I often wonder how this is ascertained, and whether or not they factor the sizeable portion of people that don't buy it but watch it, at all...I don't know, I've never been polled, and hopefully, they're not sneaking mind-reading devices into those crazy encodes. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif), I wonder what the sales are like for these films and how they compare to dubbed movies released by Bandai, Geneon, ADV and the like.

And before anyone misconstrues this, I'm not anti-dub or anything. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

EDIT: Fixed incomplete thought.

[Mr. Nail Bat]

[ QUOTE ]
ChristianLF said:
I do think it's a shame some people won't buy it (and Millennium Actress for that matter) because of no dub, as they're missing out on great films, but from my standpoint, they're foreign movies. The companies have no obligation to make a dub for every foreign film they put out, and the consumer has no obligation to buy it, so I guess dub-only fans will speak with their dollar...I still think it's a crying shame, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Obligation" is a strange word to use. Nobody has an obligation to do anything, but in the anime industry, it is a generally accepted practice to release anime in bilingual format: Japanese (with English subtitles) and English. DreamWorks (for whatever reason) decided not to follow this particular accepted practice. And therefore, I have no inclination to watch it.

I'm sure it is a very good movie--however, my entertainment resources (time and money) are limited, and I would prefer not to expend those resources on anime outside of my preferred format.

[ QUOTE ]

As I hear lots of people saying that most anime fans watch it dubbed (though I often wonder how this is ascertained, and whether or not they factor the sizeable portion of people that don't buy it but watch it, at all...I don't know, I've never been polled, and hopefully, they're not sneaking mind-reading devices into those crazy encodes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good ol' market research, I suppose.

Well, as far as anime companies go, I would imagine that the "sizeable portion of people that don't buy it but watch it" would be wholly irrelevant. They're interested in paying customers. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[christianlf]

[ QUOTE ]
Big Big Duck said:
[ QUOTE ]
ChristianLF said:
I do think it's a shame some people won't buy it (and Millennium Actress for that matter) because of no dub, as they're missing out on great films, but from my standpoint, they're foreign movies. The companies have no obligation to make a dub for every foreign film they put out, and the consumer has no obligation to buy it, so I guess dub-only fans will speak with their dollar...I still think it's a crying shame, though.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Obligation" is a strange word to use. Nobody has an obligation to do anything, but in the anime industry, it is a generally accepted practice to release anime in bilingual format: Japanese (with English subtitles) and English. DreamWorks (for whatever reason) decided not to follow this particular accepted practice. And therefore, I have no inclination to watch it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still think it's a shame. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Great movie, it is, but like I noted, each consumer is always able to exercise their will by not purchasing. A true letter campaign probably wouldn't hurt, either, if you can convince these companies they're missing out on enough money to make it viable. And if the "market research" (which I'm really curious to see, both the results and how it was conducted, as well as comparison sales figures) is correct, then they're missing out on a lot of revenue.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm sure it is a very good movie--however, my entertainment resources (time and money) are limited, and I would prefer not to expend those resources on anime outside of my preferred format.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, I don't consider Kon's work to be merely good, but up there with the best. Of course YMMV, but to me, it's missing out on the cream of the crop. But again, I'm not trying to start an argument, just basically I was rambling on my curiosity on the subject.

[ QUOTE ]

Well, as far as anime companies go, I would imagine that the "sizeable portion of people that don't buy it but watch it" would be wholly irrelevant. They're interested in paying customers. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Fair enough. I don't think people like that are really relevant, except the statement I usually hear (that most R1 viewers watch their anime dubbed) is different from, "Most R1 viewers that legally purchase anime watch it dubbed." I know the inference in the first statement is there, but I'm a nitpicker when it comes to these types of things. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[quenelf]

The sales figures for these compared to other anime DVDs that have a dub (like say Spirited Away, Cowboy Bebop, Ah My Goddess...) would indeed be interesting. Shame we'll never get to see them.

Personally I never watch foreign films in anything other than the original language if I can possibly help it, and that certainly includes anime. (For anime, being in Japanese is an additional incentive since I halfway know the language, but I mean, that applies to French films and whatever else too.) That's just the way I happen to feel about it.

Getting off the dub issue (and I find it kind of amusing that, assuming votes based on posts, it seems likely that the only two people to vote 'negative' on this so far are the two who haven't seen it), this is indeed a fantastic film. It might not be earth-shattering like Kon's previous two films and it's definitely a Christmas film (well, Christmas/New Year), but it's such a good one. Really funny, touching, and clever; lots of great lines and great characters, as well as quality animation.

I would urge everyone who doesn't object to the lack of a dub to buy this film - or rent it, if you must, but it's definitely worth watching more than once. And when I visit my parents next Christmas I'll certainly be bringing this film to show them (they're not anime fans; I know they'll like it anyway). This is one of the rare anime films that should appeal to a much wider audience.

--quen

[Chris Beveridge]

[ QUOTE ]
Big Big Duck said:
"Obligation" is a strange word to use. Nobody has an obligation to do anything, but in the anime industry, it is a generally accepted practice to release anime in bilingual format: Japanese (with English subtitles) and English. DreamWorks (for whatever reason) decided not to follow this particular accepted practice. And therefore, I have no inclination to watch it.

[/ QUOTE ]

There's the difference. CTS and Dreamworks (and 4Kids and Nelvana, etc) are not releasing these for the anime industry nor are they really a part of the US anime industry. Sony Japan is most definitely a separate entity so I wouldn't confuse it with CTS' policies in the US. Generally one does not dictate to the other.

CTS and Dreamworks are in the "film" business, which is generally speaking not dubbing films. They rarely do it with live action pieces and I'm not sure if they do it with other animated pieces. I didn't see Triplets of Belleville so I have no idea what language is spoken in it. If it's French, is it subtitled only? Probably.

To expect CTS and Dreamworks to cater to the anime market when they're not intending that audience to be their primary one is like us expecting MTV to air Heat Guy J in Japanese because hey, I'm the anime market. Heck, expecting them to air it in order would be the first thing you'd expect. But they didn't even get that. Cause it's not being aimed at the serial-anime-market.

[Fencedude]

While you make a good point, they still should have dubbed it.

And if its not aimed at the Anime Market, why is it in the Anime section of Best Buy, and not whatever section they put other foreign films in?

[JeffDM]

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
While you make a good point, they still should have dubbed it.

And if its not aimed at the Anime Market, why is it in the Anime section of Best Buy, and not whatever section they put other foreign films in?

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen a special section for foreign films at BB. I know Crouching Tiger is in the Action section, but that's multilingual.

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
While you make a good point, they still should have dubbed it.

And if its not aimed at the Anime Market, why is it in the Anime section of Best Buy, and not whatever section they put other foreign films in?

[/ QUOTE ]
Because it is anime. But Dreamworks doesn't cater it's product to the anime market like ADV/Bandai/etc. They handle the product the same as their foriegn films, and none of those included dubs. I think that is what Chris was getting at.

[Chris Beveridge]

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
While you make a good point, they still should have dubbed it.

And if its not aimed at the Anime Market, why is it in the Anime section of Best Buy, and not whatever section they put other foreign films in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is ultraman live action in the anime section? Heck, if I go into my best buy there's a good chance some Playboy discs got moved into there somehow. Retailers do things however they want.

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
While you make a good point, they still should have dubbed it.

And if its not aimed at the Anime Market, why is it in the Anime section of Best Buy, and not whatever section they put other foreign films in?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is ultraman live action in the anime section? Heck, if I go into my best buy there's a good chance some Playboy discs got moved into there somehow. Retailers do things however they want.

[/ QUOTE ]
Onmyoji is in the anime section, because it's Japanese. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

Edit: I've also seen Versus, Princess Blade, Oshii Trilogy, and Godzilla in the anime section at BB.

[Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
ChristianLF said:

I don't think people like that are really relevant, except the statement I usually hear (that most R1 viewers watch their anime dubbed) is different from, "Most R1 viewers that legally purchase anime watch it dubbed." I know the inference in the first statement is there, but I'm a nitpicker when it comes to these types of things. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I too would love to get a source on this. As far as I know, the "fact" that more people watch anime dubbed stems from VHS sales, because the dub tapes outsold the sub tapes. Of course, that would have nothing to do with the fact that the dub tapes were often CHEAPER, would it? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Now that DVDs have both, you can no longer gauge by sales of a particular title, and comparing radically different titles (Spirited Away and Tokyo Godfathers, for instance) introduces too many other factors (marketing, demographics, appeal of the anime itself, etc.) so you really can't draw conclusions from that either. Really, about all that would come close to working is some massive poll... but it couldn't just be an internet poll, because that would be skewed too. So any statements like "more people watch anime dubbed" I take with a huge grain of salt, because they're obviously based on individual people's personal experiences rather than worthwhile statistics.

I agree with you that it's too bad that people are passing on this movie because it's sub-only. While I can understand the argument that the usual trend with R1 anime releases is to provide a dub as well, what's kind of silly is that these same people probably wouldn't think twice about buying a sub-only live action foreign film.

[Legion]

I like subtitled anime and enjoyed Millenium Actress, so I'll be getting this as soon as I can. (And Memories too, for that matter.)

As for the lack of a dub, the target audience thing makes sense. But I think CTS and Dreamworks are shooting themselves in the foot by not gearing these movies toward the anime market. Satoshi Kon made a good first impression over here with Perfect Blue, a film which was able to reach both dub and sub crowds. Thus, using his name as a tagline to his other movies is bound to bring in more sales. But when the folks who enjoyed Perfect Blue in English see Millenium Actress and Tokyo Gofathers are sub-only, they'll probably end up passing on them. Thus, many potential sales are lost.

It's not like dubbing these movies would put any financial strain on either company, especially if they used a studio like Animaze.. This is Columbia-Tristar and Dreamworks we're talking about here. I'm sure some big wig high up the corporate latter could find the money for a decent dubbing budget in his couch. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif It's an extremely acceptable investment that I'm positive would have payed off for them.

To those who are voting with their dollar due to the lack of a dub, I understand. However, you should try finding an appropriate address (e-mail, or better, snail mail) to let them know you would have bought these releases had they been bilingual. Remember, Dreamworks and CTS aren't expecting the DVD sales to be sensational, but if they get an idea of how much more they could make by adding a dub track, then future releases might benefit. Who knows...

[ QUOTE ]
Legion said:
It's not like dubbing these movies would put any financial strain on either company, especially if they used a studio like Animaze.. This is Columbia-Tristar and Dreamworks we're talking about here. I'm sure some big wig high up the corporate latter could find the money for a decent dubbing budget in his couch. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif It's an extremely acceptable investment that I'm positive would have payed off for them.

[/ QUOTE ]

1) Either Dreamworks doesn't care about the anime market and so could care less about a dub, or

2) They did their research and decided that having a dub would not make up the costs for creating one

They might lose sales, but I'm sure they did a whole cost/benefit analysis themselves and determined not to do one. Or they just believe in releasing it their own way because they aren't in the anime product market. Maybe a combo of both.

[Legion]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude said:
Of course, that would have nothing to do with the fact that the dub tapes were often CHEAPER, would it? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I know you're being sarcastic, but yes, it had a lot to do with it. The traditional statistic I heard was that 90% bought dubbed, the rest subbed. However, Media Blasters and Right Stuf usually charged the same amount for both sub and dub VHS tapes. In those cases, 2/3 of the sales went to the dub version while 1/3 went to sub. If you were to try to figure out where the numbers stood nowadays, that would be a good place to start. I have no doubt the statistics still favour the dub, though. However, the margin isn't nearly as wide as you've probably heard over the years.

[touchdown]

one of my all time favorite animes

what really blew my mind is - the behavior - the way all three protagonists are speaking and acting. each of them represent a group of human beings normally nobody comes or want to come in close contact.

the transvestite
the runnaway kid
the alcoholic

and to top it all homeless

each group has their own kinda language - way of behaving etc. what i really appreciate is that satoshi kon has not only the eyes to be aware of that but also the ability to put it into motion in an animee.

what happens to each of those three chars is up to the reality. you can´t hide inside whatever happened to you in the past. it will break through sooner or later. thats what makes this anime also so special for me.

all three protagonists show dignity, humor, love, understanding, tolerance and care for eachother.

great anime

I voted positive not so much for the R1 release (I got the R2) but for the movie itself. This movie served as yet another affirmation as to why Satoshi Kon is my favorite anime director. Just the artwork and other technical aspects alone are a joy to watch, but add in an engaging story with interesting characters and this easily became one of my favorites for this year (so far).

[callman]

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
I didn't see Triplets of Belleville so I have no idea what language is spoken in it. If it's French, is it subtitled only? Probably.


[/ QUOTE ]
It doesn't have any real dialogue. There are some french lines here and there (song, tv announcer, etc), but nothing relevant. They are showing the movie here without any subtitles.

[Sensuifu]

I enjoyed it when I first saw it in theaters. The film was a bit different from Kon's previous works, but it still maintained characters with depth and a 'realistic' setting with a unique twist in storytelling. Highly recommended, even as a great primer to those not really interested in anime in general, but wanting to watch something that's down-to-earth and overall enjoyable.

[mighty_vespa]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude said:
I agree with you that it's too bad that people are passing on this movie because it's sub-only. While I can understand the argument that the usual trend with R1 anime releases is to provide a dub as well, what's kind of silly is that these same people probably wouldn't think twice about buying a sub-only live action foreign film.

[/ QUOTE ]

Double "word" score.

Sure. People are free to vote with their wallets; AFAIK, a basic, inalienable right. But that won't stop me from clicking my tongue and shaking my head, whenever another potential "Chiyoko Fan" bites the dust. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

Like many others, I was fortunate to see both Millennium Actress and Tokyo Godfathers, at BAAF, two years, in a row. Before then, Satoshi Kon was just another director (and character designer) I thought was cool enough to keep an eye on. Now, he's been vaulted to the near top, as one of my favorite directors; with Millennium Actress as my 2nd all-time favorite animated film. I can't get enough of this guy! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[Jigen_Daisuke]

Voted positive for a film by one of my favorite directors.

[Queen_Pandora]

Beautiful movie, I liked it a lot.

[Ryuuroden]

I can say that I really really enjoyed this film as well ^_^

[Ryuuroden]

[ QUOTE ]
mighty_vespa said:
[ QUOTE ]
Dude said:
I agree with you that it's too bad that people are passing on this movie because it's sub-only. While I can understand the argument that the usual trend with R1 anime releases is to provide a dub as well, what's kind of silly is that these same people probably wouldn't think twice about buying a sub-only live action foreign film.

[/ QUOTE ]

Double "word" score.

Sure. People are free to vote with their wallets; AFAIK, a basic, inalienable right. But that won't stop me from clicking my tongue and shaking my head, whenever another potential "Chiyoko Fan" bites the dust. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

Like many others, I was fortunate to see both Millennium Actress and Tokyo Godfathers, at BAAF, two years, in a row. Before then, Satoshi Kon was just another director (and character designer) I thought was cool enough to keep an eye on. Now, he's been vaulted to the near top, as one of my favorite directors; with Millennium Actress as my 2nd all-time favorite animated film. I can't get enough of this guy! /images/graemlins/cool.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, he is one of my favorites as well. Paranoid Agent is a tv series he is doing that has not let me down either. I have yet to see him make an anime I do not like

[Mary]

Chris said in his review is - A lot of what the show is based around is the pure-luck and coincidence factor. - I dont think that is exactly true - I think it is more like the comment someone made about the story being like John Ford crossed with a Christmas Miracle type movie - but I would also add in Grand Canyon. If you look at most places where the bums get help there is an angel or religious symbol hidden in the picture, some subtle some obvious. So that what seems to be coincidence becomes God's will. It reminded me of Grand Canyon's theme that there are angels around and though you might not recognize them and that there are angels in all of us. The most obvious symbols are on the taxi and the bar - but they pop up else where too

Mary

[populuxe]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude said:
While I can understand the argument that the usual trend with R1 anime releases is to provide a dub as well, what's kind of silly is that these same people probably wouldn't think twice about buying a sub-only live action foreign film.

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't be so quick with that assumption. I see a large difference between dubbed live action films and dubbed animation. When you're watching a film, you're seeing a real person on the screen. They're not just acting with their voice, but with their expressions and body movements. Dubbing it into another language means removing one aspect of an actor's performance with something else, something the original actor had nothing to do with.

But animation is different. The way the character moves, the expressions, everything except the voice, is already laid out. The only thing left for the actor to do is give the character a voice. Nothing that one actor does is being masked by another actor. Releasing a dual-language DVD means giving the viewer a choice to enjoy it in the language they prefer.

My animation budget is limited. I have no backlog, because I can't afford to buy enough to build one up. So if my budget is limited, I'm going to make sure I spend it on DVDs that allow me to watch the show the way I want. Without an English dub, I'm not going to enjoy it as much. So no sale.

[ QUOTE ]
ChristianLF said:
I am a huge fan of Kon's work. I love this movie. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

I do think it's a shame some people won't buy it (and Millennium Actress for that matter) because of no dub, as they're missing out on great films, but from my standpoint, they're foreign movies.

[/ QUOTE ]

I posted something along these same lines when the Millennium Actress dvd was announced without a dub and the "I refuse to buy it" crys began. These are major foreign pictures being released by major Hollywood studios in their original languages. It's not a just a piece of anime per se, but a nice piece of cinema which just happens to be anime. They are getting the same treatment that other foreign movies are getting, it's expanding the realm and scope of anime, which is something we all hope for.

I saw both Tokyo Godfathers and Millennium Actress on the big screen, each time in a packed theatre and it was great to see and hear the audience responses. To me this is part of sharing the movie/anime experience. I'm certainly not going to refuse to watch great movies (be they live action or anime) like these or GitS 2: Innocence in the theatre just because they are in their original language without a dub.

What really makes me sad is that people will lose out on seeing great movies in the theatre or on dvd just because they don't have a dub. I gave it a positive vote.

[ QUOTE ]
martialstax said:
Don't be so quick with that assumption. I see a large difference between dubbed live action films and dubbed animation. When you're watching a film, you're seeing a real person on the screen. They're not just acting with their voice, but with their expressions and body movements. Dubbing it into another language means removing one aspect of an actor's performance with something else, something the original actor had nothing to do with. Please note: bold emphasis is mine.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh...I hate to break it to you, but the same exact thing happens when anime gets dubbed into English. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I don't understand this stretch of logic where watching a dubbed live action film is wrong, but you can watch anime dubbed just because it's anime. This is similar to the line of thinking that all anime is nothing but kid's cartoons and it cannot be a serious art form or tell a serious story.

[ QUOTE ]

But animation is different. The way the character moves, the expressions, everything except the voice, is already laid out. The only thing left for the actor to do is give the character a voice. Nothing that one actor does is being masked by another actor. Please note: bold emphasis is mine.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry, but this is an absolute crock. To say that just changing the voice changes nothing else is just plain wrong.

The original seiyuu is working hand in hand with the original creative team and other seiyuu. She (or he) is interacting with and getting direction from the writers, directors, producers. music director, etc and adjusting her performance accordingly to get their true intentions across. She is part of the team and making suggestions for her character and giving feedback. The creative process is taking place with the original ideas.

[ QUOTE ]
My animation budget is limited. I have no backlog, because I can't afford to buy enough to build one up. So if my budget is limited, I'm going to make sure I spend it on DVDs that allow me to watch the show the way I want. Without an English dub, I'm not going to enjoy it as much. So no sale.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, there is always a rental. As a mainstream, foreign film release from a major Hollywood studio, it can easily be found in video rental stores. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[AmericanBeauty]

I was considering this as a purchase, but unfortunately the lack of an English translation alienates me from it.

Maybe I'll change my mind soon.

[ QUOTE ]
Air Of Benevolence said:
I was considering this as a purchase, but unfortunately the lack of an English translation alienates me from it.

Maybe I'll change my mind soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an English translation on this DVD. In fact, there's an English translation on the R2 Japanese DVD.

This DVD just doesn't have an English language audio track. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[AmericanBeauty]

[ QUOTE ]
Algernon said:
[ QUOTE ]
Air Of Benevolence said:
I was considering this as a purchase, but unfortunately the lack of an English translation alienates me from it.

Maybe I'll change my mind soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is an English translation on this DVD. In fact, there's an English translation on the R2 Japanese DVD.

This DVD just doesn't have an English language audio track. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I meant. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[bctaris]

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
To expect CTS and Dreamworks to cater to the anime market when they're not intending that audience to be their primary one is like us expecting MTV to air Heat Guy J in Japanese because hey, I'm the anime market. Heck, expecting them to air it in order would be the first thing you'd expect. But they didn't even get that. Cause it's not being aimed at the serial-anime-market.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here’s an assumption, and a pretty safe one at that: nine out of ten of the people even likely to have heard of Tokyo Godfathers, Millennium Actress or especially Memories are anime fans. Even being generous, it's also safe to assume at least half of those people watch dubs partly or full-time. That’s half the likely sales for these titles that are lost by these studio’s foolish decisions. They can’t offer titles into the anime market without dubs. Stax is right, with as much out on the market right now, it’s easy for at least half that market to ignore titles lacking dubs.

But that's the rub, isn't it? These studios think they are primarily aiming for the “film� market. They’re wrong. First off, “foreign film� purists are probably not going to mind an additional language track, second, and most importantly, it’s just this pretentious, elitist division of “high� titles that dubs should not feel worthy of being included with, from “lowly� mainstream titles where dubs are safe that is the underlying problem. The classic and ever annoying “film� and “just movies� labels.

This is a personal pet peeve but as good a time to air it as any: film is the physical medium that the movie is shown on. It’s a movie, call it a movie. Calling it "cinema" is even worse.

Calling Tokyo Godfathers a foreign film as opposed to your average anime movie denotes a smug possessiveness and division that helps nothing, and based on the people likely to buy it, CTS using that label as an excuse not to add a dub is not one at all. It is foolish, near arrogant, and in some ways insulting. Are they "expanding the realm and scope of anime" as nekobus says? Maybe. But probably not considering the releases of all of these movies have been to the art-house market which is already aware of anime through Miyazaki, Ghost in the Shell and Akira, among others. Not exactly expansive. The Oscar’s animated movie category has done far more.

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
I didn't see Triplets of Belleville so I have no idea what language is spoken in it. If it's French, is it subtitled only? Probably.

[/ QUOTE ]

As callman said there isn't really any dialogue outside of three or so lines. But those that are...are dubbed into English and Spanish. But there is no French track (its original language) on the R1 dvd, although background incidental lines are still in French on either track, but no subtitles. And who released it? Columbia Tri-Star.

They dubbed the Cowboy Bebop movie because it was an established dubbed franchise, and then Metropolis (a movie labeled "film" by many) but not Memories. So do they know who they're aiming for or not?

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nekobus said:
I'm sorry, but this is an absolute crock. To say that just changing the voice changes nothing else is just plain wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

martialstax simply gave his reasons for how he justifies animation versus live-action dubs, and one that I agree with and practice. You made a similar justification as to why one should rethink that. Fair enough and point taken. But that above line serves only to embroil the discussion into an argument by inflaming the passions of other posters. There's no reason to send this thread into deep-SVD more than it already is.

Now, of these non-dubbed titles, I bought Memories but not the others, which brings me to my last point, and back on topic to this review's content: I think Satoshi Kon movies are overrated. I can't help having the impression with these movies that while they are considered "great" animation they would make mediocre if not "B" -level live-action movies. And what does that say about animation?

There is nothing greatly benefited by the freedom of animation in either movie, unlike Kon's sci-fi concept of Magnetic Rose from Memories, which I like very much. Triplets of Belleville is an apt comparison: the visual style and experimentation in that is making great use of the medium, but Kon is simply animating uninspired life-like characters in life-like circumstances. It's still very artistic and impressive, but uninspiring. Animation should be a stylistic choice, not a substitution.

Jin-Roh can be given the same criticism, but it takes advantage of a few opportunities, though not as many as it should have. Grave of the Fireflies, on the other hand, could also be criticized, but I agree with Roger Ebert's appraisal of it in that the use of animation was a purely stylistic choice in that the horrific elements (fire, blood, starvation) would have been distracting in live action for their special effects instead of their impact on the story; being animated everything melds together for a greater emotional impact than otherwise: the carnage, the blood, the natural beauty of the scenery and the pain.

I see these complaints all the time about CG, but not so much for drawn animation movies that serve no greater benefit to the medium.

-bctaris

[ QUOTE ]
bctaris said:
Here’s an assumption, and a pretty safe one at that: nine out of ten of the people even likely to have heard of Tokyo Godfathers, Millennium Actress or especially Memories are anime fans. Even being generous, it's also safe to assume at least half of those people watch dubs partly or full-time.

[/ QUOTE ]
All sheer and complete assumptions on your part. Where I live, Tokyo Godfathers and Millennium Actress received regular theatrical releases along with media attention and advertising just like live action movies receive.

[ QUOTE ]

This is a personal pet peeve but as good a time to air it as any: film is the physical medium that the movie is shown on. It’s a movie, call it a movie. Calling it "cinema" is even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, I always assumed the "physical medium that the movie is shown on" was called a "screen". /images/graemlins/wink.gif

In addition, consulting the big fat American Hertitage Dictionary on my desk yields the following information:
<ul type="square"> film - A motion picture. Motion pictures collectively regarded as an art; the cinema.
cinema - A motion picture. The cinema - motion pictures collectively. The motion picture industry. The art of making motion pictures.
movie- A motion picture. A theatre that shows motion pictures.

and last, but not least:


"The large flat-white or silver surface upon which a picture is projected for viewing" = screen. /images/graemlins/wink.gif[/list]

[Fencedude]

[ QUOTE ]
nekobus said:
[ QUOTE ]
bctaris said:
Here’s an assumption, and a pretty safe one at that: nine out of ten of the people even likely to have heard of Tokyo Godfathers, Millennium Actress or especially Memories are anime fans. Even being generous, it's also safe to assume at least half of those people watch dubs partly or full-time.

[/ QUOTE ]
All sheer and complete assumptions on your part. Where I live, Tokyo Godfathers and Millennium Actress received regular theatrical releases along with media attention and advertising just like live action movies receive.

[/ QUOTE ]

And they sure as hell didn't where I live.

[bctaris]

[ QUOTE ]
nekobus said:
[ QUOTE ]
bctaris said:
Here’s an assumption, and a pretty safe one at that: nine out of ten of the people even likely to have heard of Tokyo Godfathers, Millennium Actress or especially Memories are anime fans. Even being generous, it's also safe to assume at least half of those people watch dubs partly or full-time.

[/ QUOTE ]
All sheer and complete assumptions on your part. Where I live, Tokyo Godfathers and Millennium Actress received regular theatrical releases along with media attention and advertising just like live action movies receive.

[/ QUOTE ]

I did say they were assumptions. But thanks for reminding me.

Of course they received media attention and advertising like other movies, but compared to mainstream or even the usual indie/foreign movies? Very little. Triplets of Belleville, again, received ten, twenty times the press around here (Denver, CO) than either of those two.

But that still doesn't disprove that nine out of ten people likely to know about the movies are anime fans. Let alone assumption number two. Heck, I’ll be fair. How about eight in ten? Still no justification.

And where do you live, anyway? If it's New York or LA then I of course should not be surprised, if you’re the type in those areas to stay on top of the scene, but anywhere else...

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

This is a personal pet peeve but as good a time to air it as any: film is the physical medium that the movie is shown on. It’s a movie, call it a movie. Calling it "cinema" is even worse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, I always assumed the "physical medium that the movie is shown on" was called a "screen". /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You know what I meant. Okay, "the physical medium the movie is imprinted on" or whatever the proper term is. Moving on...

[ QUOTE ]
In addition, consulting the big fat American Hertitage Dictionary on my desk yields the following information:
[LIST] film - A motion picture. Motion pictures collectively regarded as an art; the cinema.
cinema - A motion picture. The cinema - motion pictures collectively. The motion picture industry. The art of making motion pictures.
movie- A motion picture. A theatre that shows motion pictures.


[/ QUOTE ]

I know they are valid--though somewhat amalgamated--definitions. And they are definitions I do not like for the reasons I already listed.

-bctaris

[Dude]

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bctaris said:
Now, of these non-dubbed titles, I bought Memories but not the others, which brings me to my last point, and back on topic to this review's content: I think Satoshi Kon movies are overrated. I can't help having the impression with these movies that while they are considered "great" animation they would make mediocre if not "B" -level live-action movies. And what does that say about animation?

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, it says nothing about animation, because I think Millennium Actress and Tokyo Godfathers would both be excellent movies if they were done in live action. But I must disagree that it would be an easy task. Tokyo Godfathers I could see, though certain climactic scenes would require a lot of money thrown at the special effects department to make the scenes believable enough that people wouldn't be rolling their eyes and laughing at the movie. Millennium Actress, on the other hand, would be nearly impossible to do in live action for any remotely reasonable amount of money. First, they would have to find actresses of at least three different ages who could believably pass for the same exact person. Then they'd have to do the same for several of the supporting characters. Then there are all the elaborate sets for all the movies and locations depicted in the story... including the surface of the moon.

Still think there was no good reason to animate Millennium Actress instead of film it live-action? Though how you answer this question really is beside the point, because in the end, it's Satoshi Kon's choice to tell his stories with anime. Saying he should've gone the live action route and as a result his movies are subpar is like criticizing the Mona Lisa because it's not a sculpture. You can criticize, but why not do so within the framework of the medium? Seems silly to me to say that "x" can be animated while "y" cannot. Any subject is suitable for presentation within a medium. It's the end result that counts, and should be criticized within the confines of the medium in which it's presented.

[touchdown]

Belleville

actually this anime doesn´t need no words at all - there are only a handfull of sentences even in englisch spoken. that anime tells it s story by the medium anime - pictures itself. outstanding anime!

[bctaris]

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Dude said:
Still think there was no good reason to animate Millennium Actress instead of film it live-action? Though how you answer this question really is beside the point, because in the end, it's Satoshi Kon's choice to tell his stories with anime. Saying he should've gone the live action route and as a result his movies are subpar is like criticizing the Mona Lisa because it's not a sculpture. You can criticize, but why not do so within the framework of the medium? Seems silly to me to say that "x" can be animated while "y" cannot. Any subject is suitable for presentation within a medium. It's the end result that counts, and should be criticized within the confines of the medium in which it's presented.

[/ QUOTE ]

Point taken. But my comparing it to other animated movies was criticism within the confines of the medium. Not very in depth, but I got my basic point across.

I don't know, I was planning on watching them again, I might change my mind. I think a lot of preconceptions on his work come from Perfect Blue which I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, was initially planned to be live action, and which I thought would not have made so great a live action movie at that. But then I didn't think the animated version was that great itself, anyway. I watched Magnetic Rose after these latest two movies, and that impressed me a bit more, so I might have a new perspective.

My basic opinion still stands, however. I respect the creators in whatever medium they use, but I still like to see the animated medium used more to its native effects than mirroring live action. That doesn't mean they shouldn't go for a hyper-realistic style, of course, just as long as they are creative enough with their directorial and visual freedom as the medium allows.

-bctaris

[mighty_vespa]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude said:
Millennium Actress, on the other hand, would be nearly impossible to do in live action for any remotely reasonable amount of money. First, they would have to find actresses of at least three different ages who could believably pass for the same exact person. Then they'd have to do the same for several of the supporting characters. Then there are all the elaborate sets for all the movies and locations depicted in the story... including the surface of the moon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Word.

A film of Millennium Actress' magnitude would probably need a budget of, um, no less than a $100 million, perhaps? Hmm, maybe that's a bit much. Okay. $70 million? $56? Well, the right director and producer could probably pull it off for far less. Hell, maybe with the right FX team (re: ILM) the sets could be recreated in CG. That may lend itself better to the vast number of elaborate transitions and cuts Kon used in his film. There's probably a million and one scenarios one could go over, but I'm no Hollywood producer.

You bring up a good point, in one of the most oft-debated discussions made over Kon's films...live-action versus animation: which is more suitable? I think it's safe to say that anyone who has seen one of Satoshi Kon's films have given thought to what that film would looked like, had it been treated as a live-action film. I mean, the subject matter and character animation alone, in Kon's films, can't help but make one wonder about it. It's only natural. ::shrugs::


[ QUOTE ]

Still think there was no good reason to animate Millennium Actress instead of film it live-action? Though how you answer this question really is beside the point, because in the end, it's Satoshi Kon's choice to tell his stories with anime. Saying he should've gone the live action route and as a result his movies are subpar is like criticizing the Mona Lisa because it's not a sculpture. You can criticize, but why not do so within the framework of the medium? Seems silly to me to say that "x" can be animated while "y" cannot. Any subject is suitable for presentation within a medium. It's the end result that counts, and should be criticized within the confines of the medium in which it's presented.

[/ QUOTE ]

::whistles::

Nicely put; really could've have said it better myself. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

I keep forgetting to check it out, but a live-action version of Perfect Blue was released in 2002. It was directed by Toshiki Sato and starred Ayaka Maeda (in her first role) as Ai.

[Dude]

[ QUOTE ]
Algernon said:
I keep forgetting to check it out, but a live-action version of Perfect Blue was released in 2002. It was directed by Toshiki Sato and starred Ayaka Maeda (in her first role) as Ai.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ironically, I've heard the live action Perfect Blue sucked. It looked nice and atmospheric from the trailer, though, and I would like to see it at some point.

[neaux]

I convinced my wife to watch this with me this weekend. We ordered it off of digital cable.

What a great movie. But very small subtitles. Very hard to read. /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif