Discussion Group: Crest/Banner of Stars I/II (Everything) [Archive]

Yoda47

11-01-2004, 12:14 PM

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fractured78 said:
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1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

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I saw one episode on Tech TV and went out the next day and bought all four discs.

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2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?

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Now there's a good debate topic. On the one hand, I can see why one would want to die fighting rather that just submit to being conquored. On the other hand, if you know that they're going to win anyway, and you know that they'll basicly not bother with anything on the surface, it'd be a faster way to end the conflict with no casulties.

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3. Is such a thing as a monarchy worse or better than a democracy? Why? (This may get into political discussion, which I pmed Chris Beveridge about, but he hasn't gotten back to me. If this is discussed please do not mention any events of the past 100 years.)

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I would say that this is a political question, but in general, a monarchy is as good or as evil as it's leader.

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4. What do you think about the Abh attitude toward life and responsibility? Is it more evolved? Arrogant?

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I would call it more alien. It's certanly diffrent than what most humans think on these matters.

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5. What do you think about Lafiel?

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She's great. She's nice, and interesting too. Part of it is her attatudes twoard other people, espcially from Jinto's point of view. Her culture is alien to him, and I think that part of his (and the viewers) facination with her is to learn about the Abh culture, how they think, and how they express it. Also, Lafiel is even more intersting, being a member of the royal family. She tends to deal with people diffrently, seeing as everyone she has ever met has know who she is, so she tends to either treat people very formal, or as befiting the military command structure (depending on who it is...) so it's interesting to see her interact with Jinto... at first she really doesn't know how to interact with him.

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6. Is genetic engineering good or bad in the case of the Abh versus normal people?

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Another good question. /images/graemlins/wink.gif The firt Ahb didn't have much of a choice, and I imagine that traditon and harsh space conditions set up the current systems, but the same questions that are valid today on that topic still apply.

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8. Who your favorite characters are.

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Lafiel and Jinto, they are the most likeable, and their relationship is the best part of the show.

Then there's Admirl Spoor. I don't know if she's nuts or brillent. /images/graemlins/wink.gif I'm not sure if I'd like to be friends with her, or stay as far away as possible.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif

wanfu2k1

11-01-2004, 01:25 PM

Ahh nice going Fractured it always helps a discussions when you list a couple of things we can talk about.

I think the biggest debate early on is did Jinto's father do the right thing. The humanitarian would obviously do what Jinto's father did, as it minimized the lives lost, but nationalists I could see wanting to fight to the bitter end against the invaders who want to change our way of life kinda like our US forefathers against the british. The worse part about it is that the populace thinks that Jinto's father sold their planet out. Personally I think Jinto's father did the right thing. If they fought they were going to get crushed. And while they are now under Abh rule, not much really has changed planetside. Remeber the Abh could really care less about what goes on planetside all they care about is space and governance of trade between planets. Plus now that they are part of the Abh empire, they can trade with other Abh planets and also more Abh trade ships would probably frequent the planet thereby increasing commerce and their planet economy.

I'm going to try and stay away from politics, but historically I believe that a good ruler has proven to be the best way to run a country. Too many compromises are involved in democracys. But I have to stress the good ruler part.

Lafiel is an interesting character as are all the Abh. While I don't like the caste sytem they have. I do like how their emperor/empress is chosen, where all of Lafiel's relatives are given command of ships and the one who proves they are the best commander eventually becomes the next ruler. Kinda like survival of the fittest with spaceships /images/graemlins/happy.gif

The best part of the show is the interaction and growth of the relationship between Lafiel and Jinto which is good as a good portion of this series is about that /images/graemlins/happy.gif

perigee

11-01-2004, 02:01 PM

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fractured78 said:
1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

[/ QUOTE ]It seemed much more about character and setting than the typical space opera/mecha war series. I knew it would be more involving than the average anime.
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2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?

[/ QUOTE ]He had little choice and he realized it. By agreeing to a quick surrender he avoided needless deaths. On the other hand, I'm not quite sure how he was able to act on his own. Didn't they have any kind of legislature on Martine? It seemed strange for an elected official to be deciding the fate of the world on his own.
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3. Is such a thing as a monarchy worse or better than a democracy? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]If you're referring to the Abh Empire, elections are probably impractical across such a vast region in space. Although they ruled absolutely, I didn't get the feeling the empire was despotic or malevolent. They just didn't want other races to interfere with their domain of space.
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4. What do you think about the Abh attitude toward life and responsibility? Is it more evolved? Arrogant?

[/ QUOTE ]The Abh seemed to equate their responsibilities with life itself. They had a highly structured society, and yes they did display a certain arrogance toward outsiders - though they never treated them unfairly. [like contemporary Japanese society? /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif]
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5. What do you think about Lafiel?

[/ QUOTE ]She reflected her royal upbringing in both her sense devotion and her naivete. I expect she will gain a lot of maturity during her tour of duty.
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6. Is genetic engineering good or bad in the case of the Abh versus normal people?

[/ QUOTE ]It made them what they were and gave them an advantage for survival in space, so in that sense it was good. If it was imposed on them to create a slave race, that was of course bad.

Crest and Banner are series that leave you wanting to know more the background and setting. I had the feeling we were only given a "day in the life" view of the Abh through the eyes of the various characters and their small vignettes. It would be nice to know more about the overall history of the race and empire. I guess you have to read the Star novels to gain such insight.

fractured78

11-01-2004, 04:18 PM

Glad you like the series! I still have to go back and rewatch it, something I plan on doing as soon as I have time. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

I liked both Jinto and Lafiel. However, my favorite character is Rear Admiral Spoor. I think she's been introduced by now, but if not, it's no spoiler to say that she's my favorite. She has dominance issues, which is fun to see. If she were a man she'd be an arrogant, selfish, controlling yet intelligent/charismatic leader. As a woman she's just, well, slick. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

I often wonder about the guy (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=4611) who wrote the original novel. The whole series is filled with very powerful female figures, which, in my opinion, is rare in Japanese society. Also the Abh are highly self-possessed, often not looking at things from others points of view, something pretty atypical for Japanese. Then again, the Abh are a somewhat romanticized version of a monarchy, which Japan seems to do in a lot of their anime. (Much like westerners do with King Arthur.) It's an interesting eclectic mix.

Sorry I can't answer your questions. I simply have no idea. Don't think anyone does. /images/graemlins/sad.gif

fractured78

11-01-2004, 05:19 PM

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perigee said:
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fractured78 said:
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3. Is such a thing as a monarchy worse or better than a democracy? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]If you're referring to the Abh Empire, elections are probably impractical across such a vast region in space. Although they ruled absolutely, I didn't get the feeling the empire was despotic or malevolent. They just didn't want other races to interfere with their domain of space.

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Yeah I was referring to the Abh Empire, wrote the #3 a little wrong. I agree with you about the difficulty of having elections on such a vast region of space. Also, it would be impossible for a leader understand the problems of a planet halfway across the galaxy. It seems to me, however, the Abh are doing just that with their Empire, whereas the United Mankind, being a loosely knit alliance of planets, would be a better solution.

However, that being said, in the universe of CotS the United Mankind seems pretty chaotic. Chaos that could lead to many small wars like in medieval times. The Abh see this chaos, and being logical, have done what they could to keep it from happening.

Which leads to one of the central questions I had with CotS. That being-Even if your rulers are good, is it right for them to take away your choices? Is freedom worth chaos and death?

Take, for example, what Jinto's father does. He surrenders the planet and becomes an Abh even though most of his people disagree with him. Ultimately he saved millions of lives, yet, in his act, he also takes away their choice.

The Abh do something similar. They take over planets to keep humanity from plunging into chaos and death.

I almost liken it to a parent who won't let his or her kids do something bad even though the kids all grown up. If the kids are going to commit a crime, or will do something that will allow many crimes to happen, is it right? Even if it is right the first time what about the next time? Back to the big picture, wouldn't that path lead to despotism?

I'm not sure if there is a good answer. I don't think the creators of CotS tries to answer either way. Instead it's a fascinating premise for the story to flow through.

perigee

11-01-2004, 06:55 PM

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fractured78 said:
Also, it would be impossible for a leader understand the problems of a planet halfway across the galaxy. It seems to me, however, the Abh are doing just that with their Empire, whereas the United Mankind, being a loosely knit alliance of planets, would be a better solution.

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Whatever form of government is imposed, the problems of distance and communication remain the same. For the sake of efficiency it might be better to have a permanent leadership with the authority to make decisions affecting all interests. Trying to get the governments of a hundred independent planets to agree on anything would be harder than getting a consensus from the current United Nations. Local affairs are best left under local control. Interplanetary relations like trade, war and colonization are best put under the jurisdiction of a single authority.

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However, that being said, in the universe of CotS the United Mankind seems pretty chaotic. Chaos that could lead to many small wars like in medieval times. The Abh see this chaos, and being logical, have done what they could to keep it from happening.

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I think the Abh wouldn't have even bothered with Martine except for the fact that the natives had developed space travel and there was a potential conflict of interests. It's the theme from the 50's movie The Day the Earth Stood Still.

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Which leads to one of the central questions I had with CotS. That being-Even if your rulers are good, is it right for them to take away your choices? Is freedom worth chaos and death?

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One could argue that one surrenders individual freedom to any form of government. The initiative to start a war shouldn't be left to mob rule. It's too easy for special interests to influence voters and bring disaster on the whole population. [We may find that out for ourselves. /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif]

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Take, for example, what Jinto's father does. He surrenders the planet and becomes an Abh even though most of his people disagree with him. Ultimately he saved millions of lives, yet, in his act, he also takes away their choice.

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Realistically, he had no choice. Remember how insignificant the planetary defenses were next to the Abh armada? This wasn't colonials and redcoats facing off. It was more like the US fleet landing on Granada. If the general population thought they were capable of a fight it was only because they were badly informed and advised by those advocating war. The leadership could have better explained its reasoning or gotten agreement from other bodies, but surrender was a foregone conclusion.

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The Abh do something similar. They take over planets to keep humanity from plunging into chaos and death.

[/ QUOTE ]Their motives aren't necessarily altruistic. Remember they were subjugated by the other races at one time. They may simply not want to face such foes inside their own borders (space).

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I almost liken it to a parent who won't let his or her kids do something bad even though the kids all grown up. If the kids are going to commit a crime, or will do something that will allow many crimes to happen, is it right? Even if it is right the first time what about the next time? Back to the big picture, wouldn't that path lead to despotism?

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The Abh are absolute rulers, make no mistake about it. They would annihilate entire planets if they saw it as being necessary for their own survival. Like the Roman Empire, they absorb conquered people into their own culture to remove them as a threat, not to "save" them.

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I'm not sure if there is a good answer. I don't think the creators of CotS tries to answer either way. Instead it's a fascinating premise for the story to flow through.

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We can each take away a different interpretation after watching the series. That's what makes this one more interesting than standard action fare.

lorddream

11-01-2004, 08:30 PM

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fractured78 said:

1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

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I was a bit perplexed about what was going on in the first couple of episodes. Episode 1 presented a lot of the background information for the series and seemed like it would be the standard space opera type show. Subsequent episodes had a markedly different feel, and the show itself was more of a character drama than a big space opera.

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fractured78 said:
2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?

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Yes, absolutely. He had three choices. <ul type="square">
Surrender immediately to an overwhelming force that had little interest in changing day-to-day life on the planet (the one he picked.)
Fight, then be forced to admit defeat after many are killed and much of the planet is destroyed.
Fight to the bitter end, and allow everyone to be killed.
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A tough choice, since the best decision was not a popular one, but the right choice.

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fractured78 said:
4. What do you think about the Abh attitude toward life and responsibility? Is it more evolved? Arrogant?

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I'm not quite sure what to think about this question. The Abh attitude is definitely different.

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fractured78 said:
5. What do you think about Lafiel?

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At this point in the series, I don't really think I had quite decided what to think of her. While I think she is basically a good person, there were times that her arrogance annoyed me. I also found myself feeling a bit sad that she never really had a shot at a "normal" life. (This reaction was most pronounced after seeing Jinto's reaction once he found out exactly who she was.)

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fractured78 said:
8. Who your favorite characters are.

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Lafiel and Jinto are my favorites from Crest of the Stars. Both are mostly sympathetic, yet they have enough flaws that they feel real.

BonifaceVIII

11-01-2004, 08:44 PM

The Abh are a spiritual society. Not 'spiritual' so much as religious per se, but more along the lines of attaching a certain significance to the way they live their lives. By holding dominion over space itself, the Abh consider themselves above those who are limited to existence on the ground of one world. They couldn't care less about those who actually live on the planets of Abh-controlled systems; they only care when those people enter space.

It's a grand idea: keep all those terran ills on the ground by not allowing them to leave the ground in the first place. By controlling the transmission of people, they control the transmission of problems. Whether Abh society is free of all those terran problems is another question altoghether.

fractured78

11-01-2004, 09:15 PM

Nice counterpoint. I pretty much agree with you. (Though you dance a little too close to the politics line.) For the sake of discussion however I'll play devil's advocate.

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One could argue that one surrenders individual freedom to any form of government. The initiative to start a war shouldn't be left to mob rule.

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True, but some forms of government leave the people far more free than others. As for your comment on mob rule, that's debatable since, one could argue that a democracy is "mob rule." In that sense wars should not be entered into unless the populace, in general, agrees with it.

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Realistically, he had no choice. Remember how insignificant the planetary defenses were next to the Abh armada? This wasn't colonials and redcoats facing off. It was more like the US fleet landing on Granada. If the general population thought they were capable of a fight it was only because they were badly informed and advised by those advocating war. The leadership could have better explained its reasoning or gotten agreement from other bodies, but surrender was a foregone conclusion.

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True, but I think it's interesting that Jinto's father accepts becoming an Abh right off the bat. I wonder if his motives were altruistic or not.

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The Abh are absolute rulers, make no mistake about it. They would annihilate entire planets if they saw it as being necessary for their own survival. Like the Roman Empire, they absorb conquered people into their own culture to remove them as a threat, not to "save" them.

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Agreed, but we like the Abh anyway. Makes me wonder at what I find acceptable or not. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

fractured78

11-01-2004, 09:17 PM

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MorpheusDreamweaver said:
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fractured78 said:

1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

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I was a bit perplexed about what was going on in the first couple of episodes. Episode 1 presented a lot of the background information for the series and seemed like it would be the standard space opera type show. Subsequent episodes had a markedly different feel, and the show itself was more of a character drama than a big space opera.

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I kept wondering why the hell my subtitles weren't working when the Abh were talking. Doh!

Orca

11-02-2004, 09:14 AM

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fractured78 said:1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

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Scanning the rental place for new anime to watch, see a title called Crest of the Stars with 4 volumes. Drag it out on a whim, look at the front cover, think "Elves in space! What the hell, this should be worth a giggle." Go home and start to watch.

Episode 1: "Hm, this looks potentially interesting. A bit slow, but lots of characterization and background. Pretty interesting use of flashbacks too."
Episode 2: "Wow, that really nicely captured the sense of wonder and exploration with something so simple as a shuttle launch - as well as the differences in culture. Neat."
Episode 3: "MUST SEE MORE."
Episode 5: "MUST BUY SERIES RIGHT NOW." - and I'm cheap!

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fractured78 said:2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?

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Given the ruthlessness of the Abh, yes. And yes, he did give up their freedom to venture into Plane Space independantly...but the alternative would have been certain annhilation at worst, or an empty gesture with the engaging weapons platforms being blown out of the sky after ineffectually attempting to attack - like that first armed satelite. It was a tough call, but it had to be made.

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fractured78 said:3. Is such a thing as a monarchy worse or better than a democracy? Why? (This may get into political discussion, which I pmed Chris Beveridge about, but he hasn't gotten back to me. If this is discussed please do not mention any events of the past 100 years.)

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A monarchy can be better than a democracy - so long as you have a good monarch with good assistants and advisors because it's simpler to make the long term difficult decisions where elected officials looking for re-election tend to look at short term benefits even if they involve long term pain rather than the other way around. The problem is that you'll usually only get one or two of them in a particular line before it goes down the tubes - and if they're doing something wrong, good luck correcting it short of armed insurrection or assassination. Democracy tends to result in mediocre governence without dropping as low while simultaniously allowing for things to be changed more easily - at least, in our experience thus far. In the long term it's generally superior. And actually, the Abh system has some interesting aspects to it that may help offset some of the problems with a monarchy - the entire competition for the throne, if properly executed, would select the best of the royal families for coronation. Of course the problem is by what means do you judge someone to be the best...and this is nicely glossed over. Of course, largely so is the economic system.

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fractured78 said:4. What do you think about the Abh attitude toward life and responsibility? Is it more evolved? Arrogant?

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I wouldn't call it more evolved. More arrogant certainly. It has its own ups and downs. I'm not sure how far that's been developed as of just Crest ep 7, I'll have to rewatch - but they certainly favor personal responsibility with harsh measures meted out to those who deliberately block others from theirs - or break their laws.

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fractured78 said:5. What do you think about Lafiel?

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A young woman with a chip on her shoulder the size of Gibralter, desperate to prove herself no matter the cost. Hard-nosed, with few real friends due to her royal upbringing, royal blood (she can't hide those ears), and uncompromising manner. Difficult to get close to both due to attitude and cultural problems (again, royal blood). And yet a brittle exterior - unwilling to accept weakness or personal failure - which makes actual failures difficult for her to cope with.

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fractured78 said:6. Is genetic engineering good or bad in the case of the Abh versus normal people?

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In the case of the Abh as a manufactured race, bred for obedience to explore, it was bad - but they turned it into something good (though not without its own cost). After all, who wouldn't want their children to be beautiful, tougher, and longer lived without the possibility of genetic defects? I happen to be one of those folks that believes that *properly executed* genetic engineering could be wonderfully useful to improve the human race.

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fractured78 said:7. Any specific plot questions or views on specific episodes.

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Episodes 2 & 3 I found to bring about a wonderful sense of exploring the universe - they took something the Abh wouldn't even think about - a quick hop in a shuttle or a transition into Plane Space - and turned it into something exciting through excellent characterization, effective camera work, good voice acting, and a skillful use of the score.

Episode 5 includes one of the best space combats around - with a surprising and moving ending. The tactics used are consistant for the universe - and showed some of the stuff that comes up in later series. As much as Crest is a talky series, this episode showed they know how to do intense episodes too.

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fractured78 said:8. Who your favorite characters are.

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Jinto and Lafiel obviously, and Lexshue - who is one of the most interesting captains around. I find Spoor amusing at times, but generally more annoying than endearing. And Trife is just a boor.

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fractured78 said:That's a start. Please feel free to talk about anything else. Also, if you have an idea/opinion please say why, because, being a discussion group, it's impossible to talk about stuff unless you say why you think this or that. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

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Just generally speaking about the series:

The use of the high quality (albeit somewhat repetetive) score was quite effective - and something I find can make or break my enjoyment of an otherwise mediocre series. Repetitiveness was cured with Banner, which added more songs to the mix - and further so with Banner 2. Couple the effectively used orchestral score with skillfully executed direction, reasonable to high quality art, generally good voice acting, a deep, comparatively internally consistant universe, excellent writing and enjoyable characters, and the result is truly a benchmark with which to measure any serious sci fi show.

Further in that vein - internal consistancy of the universe - how much is this important to you? I find it highly important to my enjoyment of the series. Sort of "Feel free to set the ground rules, but then play by them." That's one of the bits that threw me about Arjuna. It was set in today's world, but the science was so completely and utterly off I found it jarring to downright annoying. Star Trek is the poster child for universe *IN*consistancy. Star Wars' warships were neat and industrial looking - but the tactics displayed would have better fit WW2. B5 (what I've seen of it) has crappy directing, poor use of music, and similarly crappy tactics. Etc. Really, I haven't seen a good space opera that can compare.

Orca

11-02-2004, 09:17 AM

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Realistically, he had no choice. Remember how insignificant the planetary defenses were next to the Abh armada? This wasn't colonials and redcoats facing off. It was more like the US fleet landing on Granada. If the general population thought they were capable of a fight it was only because they were badly informed and advised by those advocating war. The leadership could have better explained its reasoning or gotten agreement from other bodies, but surrender was a foregone conclusion.

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fractured78 said:
True, but I think it's interesting that Jinto's father accepts becoming an Abh right off the bat. I wonder if his motives were altruistic or not.

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Possibly - but probably not, given that he exchanged the world's freedom to reach into space using FTL means for personal rule of the world as part of a hereditary nobility. Surrendering was the right choice - whether or not this latter part was...well...let's just say it looks quite a bit like a power grab to me.

Orca

11-02-2004, 09:19 AM

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fractured78 said:
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MorpheusDreamweaver said:
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fractured78 said:

1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

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I was a bit perplexed about what was going on in the first couple of episodes. Episode 1 presented a lot of the background information for the series and seemed like it would be the standard space opera type show. Subsequent episodes had a markedly different feel, and the show itself was more of a character drama than a big space opera.

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I kept wondering why the hell my subtitles weren't working when the Abh were talking. Doh!

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Same! I wish they'd put something in the subs like "[Spoken in Baronh, the Abh language]" for even a few seconds so I'd know what's up. At least in the following seasons I knew what was going on. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Orca

11-02-2004, 09:31 AM

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fractured78 said:Yeah I was referring to the Abh Empire, wrote the #3 a little wrong. I agree with you about the difficulty of having elections on such a vast region of space. Also, it would be impossible for a leader understand the problems of a planet halfway across the galaxy. It seems to me, however, the Abh are doing just that with their Empire, whereas the United Mankind, being a loosely knit alliance of planets, would be a better solution.

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Simple transmission lag would make large scale micromanagement impossible. At best what the Abh have (or seem to have) is a system of system rulers (Abh) and planetary rulers (locals) and work it from there, with interstellar trade. If anything, the system is a lot like a 1700's vintage Earth with long haul transportation and communications measured in days, weeks, and possibly months.

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However, that being said, in the universe of CotS the United Mankind seems pretty chaotic. Chaos that could lead to many small wars like in medieval times. The Abh see this chaos, and being logical, have done what they could to keep it from happening.

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I don't know. I don't get the impression that the UM is substantively more chaotic than the Abh - just different. Given impressions given later in the series, it appears like they may be more regimented if anything - though that might be due to the circumstances. We really don't see much of how the UM live on a day to day basis.

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Which leads to one of the central questions I had with CotS. That being-Even if your rulers are good, is it right for them to take away your choices? Is freedom worth chaos and death?

Take, for example, what Jinto's father does. He surrenders the planet and becomes an Abh even though most of his people disagree with him. Ultimately he saved millions of lives, yet, in his act, he also takes away their choice.

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Not entirely. They're always free to have their uprising at any time in the future...with the attendant bloodshed that would occur.

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The Abh do something similar. They take over planets to keep humanity from plunging into chaos and death.

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That's what THEY say anyway. /images/graemlins/happy.gif Things aren't quite that black and white/good and bad, as someone else in the thread pointed out.

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I'm not sure if there is a good answer. I don't think the creators of CotS tries to answer either way. Instead it's a fascinating premise for the story to flow through.

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There isn't a good answers. Like all serious problems in life, there are only shades of grey and difficult decisions that can't please everybody, or more typically please nobody.

wanfu2k1

11-02-2004, 12:16 PM

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Orca said:
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Realistically, he had no choice. Remember how insignificant the planetary defenses were next to the Abh armada? This wasn't colonials and redcoats facing off. It was more like the US fleet landing on Granada. If the general population thought they were capable of a fight it was only because they were badly informed and advised by those advocating war. The leadership could have better explained its reasoning or gotten agreement from other bodies, but surrender was a foregone conclusion.

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fractured78 said:
True, but I think it's interesting that Jinto's father accepts becoming an Abh right off the bat. I wonder if his motives were altruistic or not.

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Possibly - but probably not, given that he exchanged the world's freedom to reach into space using FTL means for personal rule of the world as part of a hereditary nobility. Surrendering was the right choice - whether or not this latter part was...well...let's just say it looks quite a bit like a power grab to me.

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I hate to drag latter episodes into this, but later episodes show how the Abh usually pick their rulers for the planet. So Jinto's dad became defacto ruler weither he liked it or not (and we don't know if he really wanted to be a ruler). From the little bits we see of Jinto's father I think he's basically a good man and really wanted what's best for the planet.

Course this resentment of the populace plays an important role later in the series.

perigee

11-02-2004, 12:18 PM

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fractured78 said:
As for your comment on mob rule, that's debatable since, one could argue that a democracy is "mob rule." In that sense wars should not be entered into unless the populace, in general, agrees with it.

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I wouldn't argue with your first statement. I believe the majority of governments in power today are representative democracies. That at least puts a buffer between the leaders and the hoi polloi. When it comes to decisions like declaring war, there often isn't time for the ballot box. The people have to entrust their leaders with enough authority to act in their best interest.

After watching the first episode of Crest I felt a slight disconnect with respect to the attack on Martine. There must have been some negotiations between the Empire and the planet prior to the conflict. The attack wasn't totally unexpected. The defenders knew the identity of the invaders. At the very least, they would have received an ultimatum and had time to consider it. Perhaps this was mentioned in passing, but I don't recall. I should go back and rewatch the show.
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True, but I think it's interesting that Jinto's father accepts becoming an Abh right off the bat. I wonder if his motives were altruistic or not.

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Then there was the unexplained behavior of President Rock Lin. He seemed to have an elaborate surrender plan in hand almost as soon as the Abh arrived. It almost looks like he worked it out in advance and had made secret contacts with the Empire. That suggests that he knew Martine's forces were hopelessly outnumbered and there was no time to prepare a defense. He surmised that a peaceful surrender was politically impossible. He may have reasoned that the best way to help his people was to accept a deal with the Abh that would allow him to maintain control during the transition period. He also realized there could be reprisals against his family, so securing a title was made part of the deal to help ensure their survival.
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Agreed, but we like the Abh anyway. Makes me wonder at what I find acceptable or not. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

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They seem like an honorable race for the most part. They respect their enemies and they don't run from a fight. After the first battle episode I had the impression they were nearly unbeatable. Later on I saw them as being more vulnerable and that increased my sympathy for them.

wanfu2k1

11-02-2004, 12:30 PM

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BonifaceVIII said:
The Abh are a spiritual society. Not 'spiritual' so much as religious per se, but more along the lines of attaching a certain significance to the way they live their lives. By holding dominion over space itself, the Abh consider themselves above those who are limited to existence on the ground of one world. They couldn't care less about those who actually live on the planets of Abh-controlled systems; they only care when those people enter space.

It's a grand idea: keep all those terran ills on the ground by not allowing them to leave the ground in the first place. By controlling the transmission of people, they control the transmission of problems. Whether Abh society is free of all those terran problems is another question altoghether.

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Wow Boniface intelligent discussion from you /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I agree mostly with the first part your post but there are a couple of things I'd like to add. While the Abh could care less about the day to day activities and rules of their controlled planets. They do care about production and trade since that's what the Abh do trade and tax ships using the "their" space, I'm sure many Abh keep tabs on production output of their planet/s.

I don't think they Abh really care if the "terrans" leave the ground and space travel what they care about is that if they do space travel they are doing it under Abh control. We see in the first episode that alot of "terrans" are in a spaceport going to school so obviously they don't really care if they space travel or not.

Orca

11-02-2004, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:While the Abh could care less about the day to day activities and rules of their controlled planets. They do care about production and trade since that's what the Abh do trade and tax ships using the "their" space, I'm sure many Abh keep tabs on production output of their planet/s.

I don't think they Abh really care if the "terrans" leave the ground and space travel what they care about is that if they do space travel they are doing it under Abh control. We see in the first episode that alot of "terrans" are in a spaceport going to school so obviously they don't really care if they space travel or not.

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This is addressed later on in the series. The Abh (specifically, the Abh monarch) controls all Plane Space-capable ships (presumably through an appropriate beurocratic system). This means individual planets can tootle around in their own systems, but any intersystem travel is only done on the express OK of the Abh.

Orca

11-02-2004, 01:28 PM

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wanfu2k1 said:From the little bits we see of Jinto's father I think he's basically a good man and really wanted what's best for the planet.

Course this resentment of the populace plays an important role later in the series.

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It's hard to say. We know that Jinto had a reasonably close relationship with his father's secretary and whatever relation Rina has with him (I can't recall offhand what this is - housekeeper? Wife of Teal Clint? Family friend? Something else?). I got the impression - though this could easily be wrong given the minimal information given - that up until he was taken away for training Teal and Rina were doing a fair share of his parenting.

Redcoffin

11-02-2004, 01:40 PM

Hey, great discussion about a show I love. Coming in rather late but that won't stop me from giving my 2 cents. Interesting but not surprising that despite all the prohibitions, the political theory in COTS has had a prominent place in the disucssion so far. That's good because I think issues of government are very important to COTS/BOTS, and that's one of the things that make these shows different.

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fractured78 said:
1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?
2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?
3. Is such a thing as a monarchy worse or better than a democracy? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing that I haven't seen so far in our discussion is that the Abh empire, and the general world situation in COTS, is most likely based on Chinese history rather than on anything from the western world. The Humankind Empire Abh bears many similarities to an idealized traditional Chinese state, with a benevolent, relatively detached imperial family (cluster of families) at the center, and the state administration carried out by a many-leveled bureaurocracy of administrators, generals and officials, all with relative degrees of autonomy.

Interesting side note: Can anyone confirm when Mr. Morioka wrote the Sekai novels? If these came out during the 1990s -- in other words, during a time of economic malaise and relative insecurity in Japan -- could the apparant yearning for a benevolent, well-ordered universe in the story be related to that?

In any case, consider that the Sekai story is firmly grounded in the Abh point of view. All through the Sekai story the Abh (i.e. imperial bureaucratic) perspective is presented as normative. The assertions of the United Mankind are presented as stage-melodrama rants, especially in these first episodes (the situation becomes more complicated in BOTS II which I won't go into here). Consider how differently George Lucas handled the same idea: He reflexively grounded the Star Wars story in the rebel-alliance point of view, around the Roman (Western) concept of a once virtuous republic breaking down into tyranny.

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7. Any specific plot questions or views on specific episodes.

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I think COTS violates a very common Sci-Fi cliche, which I call 'the apocalyptic impulse.' What I mean by that is the concept of a story that revolves around somebody saving the Earth, or the Universe, or some such thing. This cliche'd view seems to be that a story is automatically more important or interesting if "something really big" is in danger. Please nobody take this the wrong way, but that is generally a young person's way of thinking, and to my mind, it mostly results in 'comic book' stories that are not important and vital, but trivial. Even the best comic book writers tend to stay away from the endless repetitions of saving the earth that we have all seen a thousand times.

COTS is having none of that. The grand, overarching narrative -- if there even is one -- is presented as just another stage in an eternal and ongoing process that has continued before, and will go on long after all the current characters have faded away. This is a story -- or group of linked stories -- about people making tough decisions, and for that reason it is interesting and moving.

I hope passionately that the novels will someday be translated.

fractured78

11-02-2004, 02:55 PM

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Orca said:
Further in that vein - internal consistancy of the universe - how much is this important to you? I find it highly important to my enjoyment of the series. Sort of "Feel free to set the ground rules, but then play by them." That's one of the bits that threw me about Arjuna. It was set in today's world, but the science was so completely and utterly off I found it jarring to downright annoying. Star Trek is the poster child for universe *IN*consistancy. Star Wars' warships were neat and industrial looking - but the tactics displayed would have better fit WW2. B5 (what I've seen of it) has crappy directing, poor use of music, and similarly crappy tactics. Etc. Really, I haven't seen a good space opera that can compare.

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I totally agree with that, though I don't think some really aim at being realistic. IE-Star Wars (which is fairly internally consistent too.) I've pretty much given up watching live action sci fi because it pales in comparison to books.

KomoriKiri

11-03-2004, 08:03 PM

Let's see...

1) I was happy to finally see a serious sci-fi anime set in space ^_^ Other than Legend of the Galactic Heroes, there doesn't seem to be a whole lot of that.

2) Depends what version of "right" you're talking about. What he did was probably the best thing he could have done for the overall good of the planet.

3) Neither is inherently better, I think. Which may sound odd coming from me, since I'm a Libertarian, but I'm just as skeptical of pure democracy as I am of Monarchy.
The Abh system is interesting, though. If I had to describe it, I'd call it a "Monarchial Republic". The top layer is a monarchy (that is based on merit as well as birth, which is a good addition), but under that it's pretty much anything goes. The Abh really don't care much about on-planet affairs, so there are probably planets that elect their representatives to the Abh. The Abh kind of act as a "fair trade zone", where the rules are the same for everyone, and allow trade to happen between the various subStates.

Now that I think about, I bet a poli-sci major could write a dissertation about this system. There's a lot of interesting touches to it.

4) The Abh attitude is fun. I'm talking about their general attitude, rather than anything specific. More or less evolved? Well, it's set in the future, so almost by definition. Better? Depends on what you're after. Arrogant? Possibly, but if you can back it up, it might not be arrogance.

5) Lafiel is an interesting study. Personally, I have no first-hand experience with someone who's grown up in that kind of scrutiny, but it does seem believable. Best early Lafiel scene is when she announces her name to Jinto. Very good character establisment moment.

6) Why does genetic engineering have to be good or bad? Good or bad for what? Given their spatial senses and longevity, it's hard to see how it can be labeled bad from, say, a quality of life perspective.

8) My favorite character isn't in the first seven episodes. He's in the next block, and again in Banner II. I don't know his name, but he's Admiral Trife's (? working from memory here) right-hand Abh, the guy with the long black hair. Most of the Abh are good, though. I like their general attitude.

Wraith
"In the fight between you and the world, back the world."
-- Franz Kafka

wanfu2k1

11-03-2004, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wraith said:
3) Neither is inherently better, I think. Which may sound odd coming from me, since I'm a Libertarian, but I'm just as skeptical of pure democracy as I am of Monarchy.
The Abh system is interesting, though. If I had to describe it, I'd call it a "Monarchial Republic". The top layer is a monarchy (that is based on merit as well as birth, which is a good addition), but under that it's pretty much anything goes. The Abh really don't care much about on-planet affairs, so there are probably planets that elect their representatives to the Abh. The Abh kind of act as a "fair trade zone", where the rules are the same for everyone, and allow trade to happen between the various subStates.

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Actually from what I've seen, while they don't care about what goes on planet side they do care who is their representative to the abh. It seems they like to appoint rulers to the planet(like jintos dad) and make them royalty which is why jinto is a prince in the beginning of CoTS. I think they firmly believe in the feudal system at least in planet ownership. I think every Abh controlled planet has a baron, duke or something controlling it.

Beagle-san

11-16-2004, 06:17 PM

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fractured78 said:

1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

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I was blown away. This is easily one of the best sci-fi series I've seen in a long time, and, no, I'm not limiting this to anime.

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2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?

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Which right thing: Surrender or to become an Abh noble? Or perhaps both choices?

First, he had no choice but to surrender. They were totally outgunned and outclassed by the Abh.

However, there are indications that there was dissent about that decision.

As to him making himself the planet's ruler, and becoming an Abh noble, there's really not enough information to decide.

Teal certainly felt betrayed...but Teal then became the planet's leader when Martine and the Hyde system are taken over by the United Mankind.

Too many questions to which we don't know the answer, including, but by no means limited to:

Did Jinto's Father feel that there wasn't time to hold planet-wide elections?

Did he feel that by becoming a member of the Abh nobility that he'd be better able to protect the interests of Martine and the Hyde system?

Or did he see a chance for additional power and grab it?

Even so, was he possibly thinking of protecting his family, setting them up permanently as Abh, and therefore members of the ruling class?

Teal. He was both outraged at the surrender, and about Jinto's father becoming an Abh noble, the ruler for life of Martine and the Hyde system. Was his anger that of a patriot, or was jealousy at work?

Teal took over Martine and the Hyde system and executed Jinto's father. Again, was he acting as a patriot (in his own mind, of course), or did he see his chance for power and take it?

Since we don't know the answers, we can't know if Jinto's father was correct or in error. One thing we do know is that his son is on the winning side (so it appears at this moment), and yet he himself was executed due to that decision.

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3. As it pertains to the United Mankind and the Abh is such a thing as a monarchy worse or better than a democracy? Why? (This may get into political discussion, which I pmed Chris Beveridge about, but he hasn't gotten back to me. If this is discussed please do not mention any events of the past 100 years.) I got a reply. As long as the discussion stays on the anime it's fine. If I interpret his message correctly it's also okay to talk a little about politics but absolutely no discussion of any current events. As an example: I was thinking about talking about the Roman Empire with their struggle between the being an Empire or a Republic. Either that or the Spartans which the Abh seem to mirror quite a bit.)

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Well, we really don't know about the checks and balances within the Abh system.

We do know that to be eligible, it seems that an Abh needs to:

1) Be a member of the Abriel family;

2) Have served in the Abh military;

3) And be approved, in some way which I don't think has been described in the anime, as to whether that person becomes the Emperor or Emperess.

That still remains very vaque.

I think it was Winston Churchill who said that democracy was the worst form of government, except for all the rest.

It's a sentiment with which I completely agree.

However, it's worth remembering that this is a series of novels, manga and anime which is from Japan. Japan has a much more positive view of monarchies than do many in the West.

It is still only 59 years ago that Emperor Hirohito surrendered his nation and who, only at that point in history, declared that he was not a living god.

The Japanese remain a degree of reverence towards the Emperor and the Imperiial family.

An absolute ruler, whether a monarch or a dictator, is capable of being the most effective type of ruler. He or she is capable of instantly cutting through red tape and getting projects performed.

The negative side is that no other system is a subject to causing the abuse of power. Absolute power corrupts absolutely is not mere puffery by the powerless, but is a hard-learned lesson by humanity, a lesson which some places still have yet to learn.

But the Abh are the Abh. It seems that they are philosophically not inclined towards abuses of power, with noblesse oblige a requirement of leadership.

However, keep in mind that it is easy to have a storybook monarchy be good an noble in all things; it is a far different matter when such matters are attempted in the real world.

Furthermore, "Crest" contains an example of an Abh noble who does abuse his power. No one, it seems, is incapable of meglomania.

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4. What do you think about the Abh attitude toward life and responsibility? Is it more evolved? Arrogant?

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It's certainly monopolistic. With the Emperess owning all ships, this, presumably shuts out other star nations from Abh space.

The Abh seem to view the pragmatic as their religion.

I think it important to remember that the Abh were genetically created to essentially be slave labor in space. Hence their lack of religion: I presume, with the inherent danger of error, that one justification is that they weren't "real" humans. And, of course, only "real" humans have souls, and therefore should be concerned about religion.

However, I think it, again, important to recognize that the Abh's views are fictitious. One can't translate those to the real world.

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5. What do you think about Lafiel?

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Heh. I love Lafiel. Ayako Kawasumi is one of the most gifted voice actresses I've ever heard. It's hard to believe that this gal is the same voice for Mahoro in "Mahoromatic" and Aoi in "Ai Yori Aoshi". IIRC, NewType USA had a photo spread of Ms. Kawasumi in the October, 2004, issue, with her dressed in a kimono owing to her role as Fuu in "Samurai Champloo".

Lafiel is a complex and a delghtful character. This is one very determined young lady who wants to be judged on her own merits, not for her place in the imperial family.

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6. Is genetic engineering good or bad in the case of the Abh versus normal people?

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Genetic engineering is a huge can of worms awaiting mankind in the not very distant future.

However, the Abh were genetically created to function as slave labor in space. Accordingly, it is logical that they have no problems with the concept.

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7. Any specific plot questions or views on specific episodes.

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"The Battle of Gosroth" is one of the best examples of space combat I've ever seen, possibly the best that I've ever seen.

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8. Who your favorite characters are.

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Spoor. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Admiral Spoor is just a fantastic character, one who you've not met if you've only seen the dub version of this character.

Lafiel, of course, for the reasons listed above (and for a whole lot more reasons, but I've covered enough ground on that topic).

Captain Lexshue. Again, if you've only seen the dubbed version, you miss out on a great character who ranks as one of fiction's great commanding officers.

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That's a start. Please feel free to talk about anything else. Also, if you have an idea/opinion please say why, because, being a discussion group, it's impossible to talk about stuff unless you say why you think this or that. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

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Above all things I have to point out that if you've only seen the dub version, you've missed the full experience of this show. Spoor, without that playful, bored, purr in her voice is just not Spoor. Likewise, Capt. Lexshue. In Japanese, you have a captain who'd kick Janeway's tush.

And then there's Lafiel. Ayako Kawasumi is an unbelievably talented seiyuu. Dub actresses who take over her roles invite comparisons to high school actresses who take over a role done by Meryl Streep; the gap in talent is that significant.

Jinto likewise comes across badly in the dub, IMO.

This is not sub snobbery against dubbing, but rather a fair evaluation of the talent comparisons between the sub and dub casts. I make no pretense of my preference for subs, but the difference for this particular anime is dramatic.

(As comparison, Ms. Kawasumi does her usual outstanding job in "Ai Yori Aoshi", and I like the sub version, of course. However, dub fans will still get most of the full experience and story in that anime. CotS is a far different matter, the difference betweeen the quality of work and the characterizations of the seiyuus versus the dub cast is too significant not to point out.)

fractured78

11-19-2004, 02:20 PM

Finally got around to rewatching the whole series. Hmm, the last episodes don't have too many questions raised in them because they are mostly action scenes. I'll make a few stabs and comments anyhow.

Upon rewatching the first half I really did notice that Crest made lots of comments about class conflict. Specifically-having formally distinct classes (Abh and not-Abh) created all sorts of descrimination and stereotyping. By being an Abh nobleman but visibly not-Abh, Jinto even more looked down upon by not-Abhs.

As for the more recent episodes:

1. Baron Febdash, was he just misguided or an example of what happens when someone has absolute power? (Nonserious comment-would the resident pervs on AoD not act the same given his power? They'll probably never look at this thread, though...)

2. Did Lafiel look better with blue or black hair?

3. Have you ever had difficulty relying on others like Lafiel does to Jinto?

4. If you were to classify yourself as a character in Crest of Stars who would you be most like?

5. Education - Is this where the real power is? (In reference to the teaching of the United Mankind about the Abh) Hmm, I so want to go into current era politics on this one, but I sooooooo must stay away!

6. What series do you want to discuss next?
I will be posting a poll on this, but I'd like some ideas. Right now I have:
<ul type="square"> Banner of the Stars I/II Saikano Serial Experiments Lain Devil Lady Kino's Journey Neon Genesis Evangelion RahXephon [/list]

Njr Scrawl

11-19-2004, 05:04 PM

1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

I was unsure if I could get used to the character designs. Then Lexshue. By the end of vol.1 I was shaken & hooked at the same time.

2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?

Yes. He rightly interpreted the Abh ultimatum, and was of the opinion that to fight was to lose.

3. As it pertains to the United Mankind and the Abh is such a thing as a monarchy worse or better than a democracy? Why? (

Benevolent autocracies can benefit nations. Even strongarm ones can if not too severe. The Abh are like a force of nature, civilisations can bend under their conquest, take advantage of it, or resist and risk losing all.

4. What do you think about the Abh attitude toward life and responsibility? Is it more evolved? Arrogant?

Arrogant certainly, but not malicious as the Zentradi in Macross are.
They are focused on their expansion & survival for its own sake. Their enviroment is space, and they have forced their own evolution to make them extremely capable at a much faster rate, rather than taking chances and leaving the naturally most adept to devolop over millennia.

5. What do you think about Lafiel?

Disliked her at first, but as more of her background, responsibilities & character were revealed, I came to admire & respect her. I don't find her cute though - too edgy.

6. Is genetic engineering good or bad in the case of the Abh versus normal people?

From the Abh POV, good. For "Normal" people, bad.

7. Any specific plot questions or views on specific episodes.

Last episode vol.1 was a shock ending. The make or break for me. But I wanted to know the consequences of what happened & how it would affect Lafiel - so I kept buying.

8. Who your favorite characters are.

Lexshue. (Wonderful seiyuu/voice, who also does Lebia Maverick in Silent Mobius). Not enough of her in Crest. ("Birth" is one of my favourite episodes (extra on Banner II vol.3)

9. Favourite story arc is the fugitive & escape one.

perigee

11-19-2004, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
fractured78 said:
1. Baron Febdash, was he just misguided or an example of what happens when someone has absolute power?

[/ QUOTE ]He seemed misguided, corrupt and none too bright. Anyone who'd usurp his father's title, have him imprisoned, hold a member of the royal family against her will and somehow think he'd get away with it!?! It's obvious he was delusional. What's not clear is how he avoided being assassinated.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Did Lafiel look better with blue or black hair?

[/ QUOTE ]Blue seemed more natural on her, but she did appear less imperial [more vulnerable?] when she wore black. I guess I liked her more with blue.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Have you ever had difficulty relying on others like Lafiel does to Jinto?

[/ QUOTE ]I got the impression that she gained confidence in him rather quickly. Once their friendship solidified, any doubts she expressed seemed more in the nature of banter.

[ QUOTE ]
4. If you were to classify yourself as a character in Crest of Stars who would you be most like?

[/ QUOTE ]I found myself identifying with Kufadis, Admiral Spoor's exec. It's because I've also had to deal with bosses who occasionally act like fools. /images/graemlins/relief1.gif

[ QUOTE ]
5. Education - Is this where the real power is? (In reference to the teaching of the United Mankind about the Abh)

[/ QUOTE ]I'm not quite clear on what you're saying. I got the impression that offworld education was available to anyone who qualified by position or ability. A human who entered Star Forces would certainly find out everything he needed to know about the Abh in a hurry.

[ QUOTE ]
6. What series do you want to discuss next?
I will be posting a poll on this, but I'd like some ideas.

[/ QUOTE ]I suppose it makes sense to follow this discussion with one about the Banner series. I'd really like to explore the themes of Saikano sometime, given the fact that people seem to either love it or hate it.

Orca

11-20-2004, 10:48 PM

Something I'm wondering if the Japanese speakers can clear up is the ship designations in Crest/Banner.

Assault Ships/Attack Ships seem most closely akin to gunboats and torpedoboats, while Patrol Ships seem to be like a more complex version of the Cruiser designation given their comparative size, role, and capabilities. Somewhat like Nadesico's "High Mobility Battleship" - which sounds to me a lot like a "Strike Battleship" (meant to take ground, not hold it - not that such a beast has existed in the past, but based on the mission...). Getting a bit away from Crest (sorry!) and into Banner, the largest of the ships seem to give translators fits - I've seen Main-line Ships, Front-line Ships, Ships-of-the-line, Bombardment Ships...and to me it sounds like the term they were searching for was "Battleships". Given the role they played, I'd say "Guided missile battleships". /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Which also has me wondering about the mines - they seem a lot more like missiles or torpedoes to me than even mk60 CAPTOR mines (which are the closest current mines that would seem to match their performance - and those are just torpedoes with a mine enclosure).

Ok, with that all out of the way...were the translators just being a bit too literal? Or does the fault lie with the screenwriters/author?

BonifaceVIII

11-21-2004, 10:05 AM

I agree completely. Why can't they just be called corvettes, cruisers and battleships?

Mines could just as easily be called torpedoes...

11-21-2004, 11:20 AM

I have seen:
Crest of the Stars
Banner of the Stars I
Banner of the Stars II

to me, the best series is still the Crest of the Stars. At least here the lead male character (can't remember his name, Jinai?) has some guts, takes charges of things. In other 2 series, he becomes a complete wuss.

Nylock

11-21-2004, 02:20 PM

how does he become a wuss? In CotS he is a member of the nobility being safe-guarded by a member of the Star Forces, irregardless of Lafiel's position as Abh royalty. In BotS and BotS II, Jinto is Lafiel's supply officer, her subordinate. It's a bit much calling someone a wuss when he's in the military and follows the orders of his superior officer. He also is prepared to speak up to Lafiel about certain issues, which none of the others will do, because Jinto doesn't let the Abriel bit interfere with the fact that he and Lafiel are friends. That's more courage than any other Abh shows (except Spoor, but she's special).

And in BotS II, his actions were pretty heroic - he did everything to save those placed in his charge, didn't complain about how things worked out, and put his life in jeopardy to help others.

11-21-2004, 04:47 PM

Jinto's efforts in the Banner of Stars II are fruitless at best. He cost the star forces one battle group. I'm not even sure if Spoor is still alive after that battle.

That prison planet becomes complete deserted, everyone on it dead. Was it even necessary to evacuate those people at all? And was it even necessary to sacrifice that battle group? It was poor planning and poor strategy to say the least. I just don't see the whole point of it all. A couple of orbital bombardments would have taken care of the rebel forces. Those prisoners can then wait until the Star forces return.

Nylock

11-21-2004, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
furrycute said:
Jinto's efforts in the Banner of Stars II are fruitless at best. He cost the star forces one battle group. I'm not even sure if Spoor is still alive after that battle.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fruitless? The Abh Empire made a promise and it was up to Star Forces to see that the promise was kept. All through this thread people have been discussing how honourable the Abh were - it would have been pretty dishonourable to break their word. And Jinto wasn't responsible for Spoor's battle group. Lafiel was the ambassador and made the request. Spoor, although she didn't like it, had to uphold the ambassador's word.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

That prison planet becomes complete deserted, everyone on it dead. Was it even necessary to evacuate those people at all? And was it even necessary to sacrifice that battle group? It was poor planning and poor strategy to say the least. I just don't see the whole point of it all. A couple of orbital bombardments would have taken care of the rebel forces. Those prisoners can then wait until the Star forces return.

[/ QUOTE ]


If everyone is dead, who is the woman with the circlet?
Was it necessary? It was a war - no one had any way of knowing what exactly was going to happen, so they did what seemed best at the time, in order to fulfil their obligations. You can argue in hindsight that they were wrong. If Spoor's group hadn't intervened then the transports would have been destroyed or captured, or the remaining female prisoners would have been left behind to a bunch of potential rapists.


As for orbital bombardments - where from? The only ships they had were transports and the Basroil, which is a small attack ship designed for space combat as part of a squadron, not for attacking planets.

11-21-2004, 05:45 PM

The Star forces took over the prison planet. Evacuation of the planet population was not part of the original take over agreement. It was a request that was later on added and then granted.

I don't see the point of sacrificing an entire battle group just so the prisoners could have left a few weeks early. Lafiel could very well have requested one of Spoor's battle ships (or any other battle ship in the vicinity) for an orbital bombardment to decimate the rebel forces.

Also, Jinto's even considering the request of evacuation showed extremely poor judgement, especially when it was not certain how long the Star forces could hold on to that star system. It was Jinto and Lafiel running the show. Lafiel granted Jinto's request for evacuation, not understanding the nightmarish logistics that would be involved. Lafiel granted Jinto's request simply because she likes Jinto. That was poor judgment.

Orca

11-21-2004, 07:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Nylock said:As for orbital bombardments - where from? The only ships they had were transports and the Basroil, which is a small attack ship designed for space combat as part of a squadron, not for attacking planets.

[/ QUOTE ]

As an addendum I should note that the Basroil's anti-proton cannon is extremely short ranged even at its tightest dispersion. The only ships suitable for planetary bombardment would probably be the cruisers of Spoor's squadron - if they had any solid shot (though the fusion warheads would probably be able to do some decent damage even if they don't go off just - a multi-ton rock coming in a a few thousand kps largely makes explosives redundant after all - assuming their track can be properly guided in for use as hyper-velocity kinetic energy weapons).

And it's not like they had that much time...24 hours with which to bombard the rebels into pacifism while simultaniously observing the UM fleet (since that is their primary duty), somehow managing to hold off the UM fleet while the transports finish loading, not killing friendlies on the ground, and of course it's doubtful they were configured for a planetary bombardment anyway...Given the number of ships they had and the number facing them, there weren't any good options. The biggest problem was simply that there weren't enough transports (and associated assault transports) to take the refugees out before the UM fleet arrived, which would neatly mitigate the need to actively face said UM fleet.

Plus of course my feel for the Abh is they tend to go for massive overwhelming retribution rather than pinpoint accurate strikes (eg dropping a planetcracker down the grav well and calling it a day).

wanfu2k1

11-22-2004, 01:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
Something I'm wondering if the Japanese speakers can clear up is the ship designations in Crest/Banner.

Assault Ships/Attack Ships seem most closely akin to gunboats and torpedoboats, while Patrol Ships seem to be like a more complex version of the Cruiser designation given their comparative size, role, and capabilities. Somewhat like Nadesico's "High Mobility Battleship" - which sounds to me a lot like a "Strike Battleship" (meant to take ground, not hold it - not that such a beast has existed in the past, but based on the mission...). Getting a bit away from Crest (sorry!) and into Banner, the largest of the ships seem to give translators fits - I've seen Main-line Ships, Front-line Ships, Ships-of-the-line, Bombardment Ships...and to me it sounds like the term they were searching for was "Battleships". Given the role they played, I'd say "Guided missile battleships". /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Which also has me wondering about the mines - they seem a lot more like missiles or torpedoes to me than even mk60 CAPTOR mines (which are the closest current mines that would seem to match their performance - and those are just torpedoes with a mine enclosure).

Ok, with that all out of the way...were the translators just being a bit too literal? Or does the fault lie with the screenwriters/author?

[/ QUOTE ]
It seems to be a combination of translators/adaptors not really having much naval experience, plus the fact you'd probably have a pack of ravaging fanboys complaining they didn't keep the proper translations that lead to the ship names. Course it could be that the author wanted to use totally new designations for the ships. I don't want to add to the sidetracking of this thread but in BotS, the new UM mines behave and act alot like self propelled mines and less like torpedos.

11-22-2004, 01:45 PM

It seems like whichever side has the most mines wins the battle. Then what is the point of having all those battleships?

This new reality is evident in today's naval thinking. Those big old battleships with those huge guns have long become obsolete. Destroyers are going by the way of obsolescence soon. The emphasis is increasingly on missile destroyers and smaller stealth missile destroyers.

I'm not even sure how useful those aircraft carriers will be in a decade or two.

Warfare has progressed to such a point where literally you push a bunch of buttons and launch missles, and voola, you have fought your battle.

Of course the mop up duty afterwards is always left to the troopers.

I kind of miss that Star trek mode of space battles, where the Enterprise engages the enemy ship to ship with phasers and torpedoes. Having all those self tracking mines is just cheating. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

11-22-2004, 01:52 PM

Of course that has to do with the development of the mode of future weapons, energy based or projectile/explosive based.

For the foreseable future, military grade energy based weapons will require a sizable ship to carry the generator to power, and the crew to maintain, that energy weapon. But energy weapon is not self tracking, and has limited range.

Projectile weapons, though they also need a ship to carry them, can potentially be smaller, and have far longer range, and can be made to self track. And with nuclear or antimatter war heads, can have impressive yields.

It's a pity we wont see much of those glorious old days of ship to ship fighting anymore.

Beagle-san

11-23-2004, 02:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
furrycute said:
 Jinto's efforts in the Banner of Stars II are fruitless at best. He cost the star forces one battle group. I'm not even sure if Spoor is still alive after that battle.

That prison planet becomes complete deserted, everyone on it dead. Was it even necessary to evacuate those people at all? And was it even necessary to sacrifice that battle group? It was poor planning and poor strategy to say the least. I just don't see the whole point of it all. A couple of orbital bombardments would have taken care of the rebel forces. Those prisoners can then wait until the Star forces return.



[/ QUOTE ]

Several things need to be addressed here:

First, Duty. Lafiel and Jinto are given a duty by their Abh superiors, and that duty is to integrate a particular planet into the Abh Empire. They have been given a mission, and they are dutybound to fulfill it.

It cannot be stated strongly enough how important duty is in Japanese culture. As WWII demonstrated, the Japanese were culturally conditioned, prepared, willing, and (often) eager to give their lives to fulfill that duty...and to end their lives if they failed in their duty.

While moderation has occurred, duty still causes 30-year old single women to obey 10:30 p.m. curfews set by their parents, to require couples to break-up because of parental disaproval, and marriages to almost always require parental permission.

It is important to remember the "fable" told at the start of one of the episodes, comparing how the United Mankind and the Abh would help someone.

Second, While the difficulties in dealing with the planet were unforeseen by Jinto and Lafiel, they took the appropriate steps needed, and then were caught with an impossible situation when the battle changed.

They've evacuated a lot of the staff's families; to abandon the remaining staff, even assuming they were able to survive the assault by the prisoners, would've meant that you'd have people seperated on opposite sides of a border during a war, with no way of knowing when, or if, they'd see each other again. And then there are the women, who've specifically demanded protection, with their only sure protection being an evacuation.

Third, Lafiel is not merely agreeing with Jinto because she likes him.

Loyalty up, Loyalty down. Lafiel delegated to Jinto the responsibility of dealing with matters on the planet. She respects him and his judgment, and has a very good reason to do so.

So, she handed this mess off to Jinto (for the very good reason of his being a lander, and therefore bringing that viewpoint and understanding to the negotiating table).

In short, she gave her subordinate this assignment, and, after weighing matters, agreed with his decisions. This is why she supports him: Duty to her subordinate for carrrying out the assignment to the best of his ability, when she is the one bearing the ultimate responsibility. When she agrees to his proposed handling of matters, it becomes her responsibility as much as his.

Fourth, An Abh's word is her bond. This relates back to a few other points I've noted, such as duty, and the fable about Abh assistance. But Lafiel promised to resolve this matter when she accepted Jinto's proposal.

To put it simply, these people asked for protection from the Abh, which was granted. If the Abh broke that promise, even for something as simple as tactics and strategy, the Abh would have broken their bond; this is not the Abh in the fable told by Samson's people.

Even more: These people placed themselves under the protection of a member of the Abh Imperial family. Thus, the betrayal would have been even greater in the end, and would have badly damaged the reputation of the Imperial family.

All of these things Spoor was aware of, but she was reminded of it when Lafiel reminded her of the honor which was at stake.

Spoor's recognition of these facts is what causes her to take her ships into action. She recognizes that the honor of the Empire and of the Imperial family is at stake. Lafiel is responsible, not Spoor, but Lafiel is dutybound to do everything within her power to keep her word, to offer her protection, to the staff and female prisoners, so she is bound by honor to make the request of Spoor.

The request having been made, Spoor is dutybound to accept, to uphold the honor of the Empire.

Likewise, Jinto. He too is dutybound in this matter, to do everything within his power to keep his word, and he pays a high price for so doing.

Fifth, The Big Picture. From comments made later, it seems that while Spoor's force was shattered, the sacrifice her force made really hurt the United Mankind force, resulting in easier going for other parts of the Abh campaign.

So, when one looks at the big picture, it seems that Spoor's loss was not in vain, that Lafiel making the request was not merely a costly adherence to honor, with the same true for Jinto.

Duty, it seems, was more than its own reward in this instance.

Beagle-san

11-23-2004, 02:15 AM

"Damn the torpedoes! Full speed ahead!"

Admiral Farragut's famous quote happened at the Battle of Mobile Bay diring the Civil War, and the "Torpedoes" in question were what we'd today call "mines".

It's times like this that one should stop and considered why things are called what they're called.

In English-speaking nations, everyone knows that when a general says that his enemy has an armored division with 250 tanks, said general isn't taking about fish tanks.

They're called "tanks" because they were so dubbed as a code word to hide from the enemy their existence during WWI.

The name stuck.

Likewise, today's mines were once called torpedoes. So, it's entirely possible that the mines used in the Sekai trilogy are descendants of what were more recognizably mines in the past in that universe.

perigee

11-23-2004, 10:24 AM

Well said, Beagle-san.

There's another interesting aspect of Abh culture that Chris refers to in his Banner II review.
[ QUOTE ]
I particularly liked the introduction of â€œAbh Hellâ€? and the references made in the second episode from historical and literary regions that describe aspects of it. Watching Lafiel speak briefly of it before one of her command staff fills Dokufu in on it completely is beautiful, especially the continually growing fear on Dokufuâ€™s face.

[/ QUOTE ]
At first I thought this might be some sort of "bogeyman" myth used to instill fear in would-be rebels, but it's obviously something very real and terrifying. On the one hand, it makes sense that the Abh should employ every means possible to discourage insurrection. On the other hand, it points to a darker side of Abh civilization.

A legal system that favors one race over another, if only in the justice meted out, can be seen as imbalanced. Are Abh lives more important than human lives? This same question of unequal punishment has recently come under scrutiny in the real world. Courts are trying to decide the constitutionality of laws that specify different sentences for the conviction of murdering public servants vs. ordinary citizens.

Another difficulty with the notion of â€œAbh Hellâ€? is that it casts this supposedly enlightened race in the role of medieval torturers and barbarians. While execution is generally accepted as commensurate punishment for murder, torture is not. It's evidence of a society that lacks mercy and reasonable standards for the treatment of prisoners. Such acts of cruelty rob those responsible of their own humanity and claims of legitimacy.

I think a better legend to perpetuate might be that no one has ever killed an Abh and gotten away with it. If people were convinced that it was impossible to escape the consequences of such an act, that alone would be a deterrent. What purpose is served by perpetuating an image of blood lust and senseless retribution?

Njr Scrawl

11-23-2004, 10:44 AM

Thanks for those 2 posts Beagle-san *prints as inserts for DVD volumes* I'll be re-watching the whole saga with your comments in mind /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Would you say the Gosforth was more "Horatio" than "Custer"?

WRT "mines". Historically, the definition is different depending on naval, military or airborne use.

Naval are thought of as anchored explosive charges in the water triggered by proximity of a vessel. Also magnetic "Limpit" mines are attatched by divers to the hulls of enemy ships. (I think mines are stuck to colony exteriors by Zeons in Gundam)

Airborne, are bombs with timed fuses, that were meant to detonate later than the time of impact, again either by contact of from a timer.

Military use buried or concealed "landmines", either anti-personnel or anti-vehicle. Also Claymore type charges with trip/trigger wires.

That's all I know /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif What did/do the Japanese call torpedoes in the past/present?

Orca

11-23-2004, 11:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:Naval are thought of as anchored explosive charges in the water triggered by proximity of a vessel. Also magnetic "Limpit" mines are attatched by divers to the hulls of enemy ships. (I think mines are stuck to colony exteriors by Zeons in Gundam)

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the "typical" naval mine. There are also deployable ones that have a small propeller meant to give the minelayer some stand-off ability. As well as the previously mentioned CAPTOR-style "torpedo in a can" designs. That's the sort of thing I think of when I see "mine" in a naval context (which is the closest context to a space one, natch).

[ QUOTE ]
Airborne, are bombs with timed fuses, that were meant to detonate later than the time of impact, again either by contact of from a timer.

Military use buried or concealed "landmines", either anti-personnel or anti-vehicle. Also Claymore type charges with trip/trigger wires.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not just airborne, not just buried. FASCAM for example is a group of anti-personel and anti-vehicle land mines deployed by artillery, airborne, armored vehicle, and crew-served launchers. Useful for channeling enemies. See http://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/fascam.htm if you want the gory details. And they're all landmines - just the remote deployed ones (say deployed by arty) won't be that well concealed compared to a minefield with all the mines buried/concealed/etc.

[ QUOTE ]
That's all I know /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif What did/do the Japanese call torpedoes in the past/present?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd be curious to know this as well...as well as another translation of what the voice actors are saying - you know, as a check on the known deeply flawed Crest one. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Orca

11-23-2004, 11:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Beagle-san said:Several things need to be addressed here:

First, Duty. Lafiel and Jinto are given a duty by their Abh superiors, and that duty is to integrate a particular planet into the Abh Empire. They have been given a mission, and they are dutybound to fulfill it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nicely put. Banner 2 at its core IMO is about the collision of duty and personal feelings - and how our main characters deal with that (which they all manage to do in a way that is believable, mature, and startlingly atypical for TV/movies). As well as the development of said personal feelings as for some it doesn't seem they were fully aware/ready to acknowledge them...

As a side note, it's interesting to see that by the end, Jinto truly has embraced being Abh - there's none of the indecision present in Banner.

Njr Scrawl

11-24-2004, 01:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As a side note, it's interesting to see that by the end, Jinto truly has embraced being Abh - there's none of the indecision present in Banner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. A good discussion. Is it only because of his love for Lafiel that he embraces the Abh way & philosophy etc. so deeply?

In the event of surviving her, would he continue being as Abh, or (say) become more like Sansom - a soldier-sailor serving in a particular army? In other words is he assimilated to their culture or just deeply personally influenced by his princess? /images/graemlins/happy.gif

11-24-2004, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
As a side note, it's interesting to see that by the end, Jinto truly has embraced being Abh - there's none of the indecision present in Banner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with both points. There is nothing glorious about being an abh. There is nothing glorious about being an ab. Being an abh is being a drone in a mindless colony bent on galactic domination, with the royal family the colony's mastermind. A drone's duty is to carry out its queen's orders with blind faith. And to die for the queen's order is its ultimate honor.

Jinto does not embrace being an abh. He embraces his love with Lafiel. Lafiel, an individual abh who is unique precisely because she is a member of the royalty, her privileges make her unique, that's why Jinto embraces her.

As to indecision, Jinto will always be indecisive. It is his nature. That is precisely why Lafiel is attracted to him. Because Jinto is Lafiel's inferior, and because Jinto is not an abh. Lafiel's ego will never allow herself to be inferior of anyone, in any relationship. And it is precisely because Jinto is not an abh, but at the same he is Lafiel's inferior, that makes him attractive to Lafiel.

The abh empire, in the Star of the crest series' creator's mind is a mirro image of the Japanese empire. Both fortresses of solitude, with no continental landmass (planets) to call their own. Both are human, yet out of place with the rest of the humanity (few Japanese will ever admit that they are the equals of their fellow Asians). Japan's dream of imperial domination was crushed by the U.S. during WWII. But the Japanese can always dream of imperial glory in their mangas and anime, projecting their dream of galactic domination to even the stars.

Before anyone brings up the point of integration of other human societies into the abh empire. Let me point out that the Japanese imperial army did the same thing back during WWII. A large number of its recruits came from the rest of Asia. Philipinos, Koreans, and even Chinese. As to integration into Abh society. Yes, foreigners can become Japanese citizens. But they will always be second class Japanese citizens. That Baron from the Crest of the stars even resorted to changing his own DNA to make himself more abh-like, still he failed. That just goes to show you how ego-centric the abh, or the Japanese, really are.

11-24-2004, 09:05 PM

You rarely ever see any Asian features in Japanese anime characters. All characters in anime have prominent, enhanced, western facial and body features.

The Japanese never see themselves as Asians. The Caucasian race has been the dominant race in the past several hundred years. The Japanese want to emulate the dominant race's schools of thought, and aspire to emulate the physique of the dominant race. What they cannot emulate in the flesh, they strive to emulate in their culture, in their fantasies (anime).

The Japanese always have this superiority-inferiority complex. What they admire they emulate, once successful emulation is achieved, they despise the people they emulated after, because they can never forget the fact that the people they once emulated after were once the superior the Japanese.

The Japanese did this to China, to Korea. The West will follow in similar footsteps.

I wonder once their emulation for the West is over, what they will emulate after.

11-24-2004, 09:09 PM

Do not assume that the Japanese culture is about honor, about tradition. There is just as much honor, or the lack of honor, in Japanese culture, as there is in Western culture, or in any other culture for that matter.

No one culture is more honorable than another, simply because one culture is better able to project an image of honor.

If anything, I value the vitality of younger cultures, far more than I value the decay of old cultures.

keyed

11-24-2004, 10:51 PM

/images/graemlins/stunned0.gif Wow. Was this covered in the dub, because I get a totally different interpretation from the subs and from reading the books.

[ QUOTE ]
furrycute said:
I disagree with both points. There is nothing glorious about being an abh. There is nothing glorious about being an ab. Being an abh is being a drone in a mindless colony bent on galactic domination, with the royal family the colony's mastermind. A drone's duty is to carry out its queen's orders with blind faith. And to die for the queen's order is its ultimate honor.

[/ QUOTE ]
You're correct about there being nothing glorious about being an Abh, they're simply another race of human beings. From Crest of the Stars and Banner of the Stars I & II, you see differences in how people view the Abh. Some envy them, hate them, fear them, worship them, and some are indifferent, but most of these views are because the truth is that normal humans are ignorant about Abh and Abh society. Jinto attended a school to learn about Abhs and he was taught by citizens who had worked in the Empire, but even those citizen's understanding was superficial.
But where do you get the rest of that interpretation? Mindless colony, drone, blind faith... none of these describe an Abh, except through the view of United Mankind propaganda. You'd throw Lafiel or Spoor into those categories? The Abhs shown in the anime have all had unique personalities. The only common trait they have is that they all share a strong sense of duty and are, on the whole, more rational than normal people.

[ QUOTE ]
furrycute said:Jinto does not embrace being an abh. He embraces his love with Lafiel. Lafiel, an individual abh who is unique precisely because she is a member of the royalty, her privileges make her unique, that's why Jinto embraces her.

As to indecision, Jinto will always be indecisive. It is his nature. That is precisely why Lafiel is attracted to him. Because Jinto is Lafiel's inferior, and because Jinto is not an abh. Lafiel's ego will never allow herself to be inferior of anyone, in any relationship. And it is precisely because Jinto is not an abh, but at the same he is Lafiel's inferior, that makes him attractive to Lafiel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Being royalty, Lafiel is at the top of the Abh hierarchy, so by definition most people treat her as their superior. It's established at the beginning of Crest of the Stars, that Lafiel is attracted to Jinto because he treats her as a normal person and as an equal. When Jinto finds out her status and tries to act as her inferior, she clearly shows her displeasure.
As for Jinto, I wouldn't describe him as indecisive. It's just that being a grounder and suddenly becoming an Abh & a noble, he is unfamiliar with space, Abh society, and his place & role in it. When he and Lafiel are stuck on the planet, he takes charge of the situation because Lafiel is ignorant about grounder life. In BotS I & II, he's not shown as indecisive because he's decided what his role should be, an advisor and companion to Lafiel.

[ QUOTE ]
furrycute said:The abh empire, in the Star of the crest series' creator's mind is a mirro image of the Japanese empire. Both fortresses of solitude, with no continental landmass (planets) to call their own. Both are human, yet out of place with the rest of the humanity (few Japanese will ever admit that they are the equals of their fellow Asians). Japan's dream of imperial domination was crushed by the U.S. during WWII. But the Japanese can always dream of imperial glory in their mangas and anime, projecting their dream of galactic domination to even the stars.

[/ QUOTE ]
Feeling superior to the rest of the world isn't exactly unique. I'm sure the French consider themselves superior to everyone. Same goes for the Russians. China's probably the same.
As for projecting dreams of galactic domination through manga and anime, every country does that. After all, it's marketed domestically.

[ QUOTE ]
furrycute said:Before anyone brings up the point of integration of other human societies into the abh empire. Let me point out that the Japanese imperial army did the same thing back during WWII. A large number of its recruits came from the rest of Asia. Philipinos, Koreans, and even Chinese. As to integration into Abh society. Yes, foreigners can become Japanese citizens. But they will always be second class Japanese citizens. That Baron from the Crest of the stars even resorted to changing his own DNA to make himself more abh-like, still he failed. That just goes to show you how ego-centric the abh, or the Japanese, really are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't understand why you bring up intergration of human societies into the abh empire, because there is none. They're left to do as they please in all matters except those relating to space. Commerce would be the only interaction between them.
As for the Baron, your interpretation is incorrect. The former Baron's mother was a genetic grounder and became a noble because of her accomplishments in the Star Forces. At the time she became a noble, she had already had a son, who is a genetic grounder (the former Baron). Both she and her son are considered Abhs (socially), just not genetic Abhs. It's the Former Baron's children that become genetic Abh through genetic engineering before birth. Also, for the Baron's egocentricity, that's caused by an inferiority complex that he has, which is abnormal for an Abh. He suffers from an inferiority complex from a low social status as a noble, because he's a first generation Abh with no family history, his family is relatively poor for a noble, and the system that he rules has little status because it has no habitable planets. It should be noted that his sister doesn't suffer from this and that his father suspects that he raised him wrong because he didn't infuse enough pride into him.

Kellory

11-24-2004, 11:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
furrycute said:
[ QUOTE ]
As a side note, it's interesting to see that by the end, Jinto truly has embraced being Abh - there's none of the indecision present in Banner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with both points. There is nothing glorious about being an abh. There is nothing glorious about being an ab. Being an abh is being a drone in a mindless colony bent on galactic domination, with the royal family the colony's mastermind. A drone's duty is to carry out its queen's orders with blind faith. And to die for the queen's order is its ultimate honor.

Jinto does not embrace being an abh. He embraces his love with Lafiel. Lafiel, an individual abh who is unique precisely because she is a member of the royalty, her privileges make her unique, that's why Jinto embraces her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lets watch we do not stray into political discussions here lest the thread be locked.

That being said, Jinto hardly considers the Abh to be glorious. Certainly they can be considered arogant, but no more so than any other culture. Certainly the United Mankind is just as guilty of believing that their way is the right way.

Jinto does embrace being an Abh because of his love of Lafiel. In the case of Lafiel, love of the Abh and its culture and love of her are inseperable due to her nature as a princess. That doesnt, however, mean that Jinto is blind to the issues Abh have (and even the Abh are aware of them, they just dont consider their flaws to be something to be dwelled on) or that he has embraced Abh culture without reservation. But if he is to remain with Lafiel, then he has to be an Abh. Its pretty much that simple. He is a noble of the empire and it is the only game in town.

[ QUOTE ]
As to indecision, Jinto will always be indecisive. It is his nature. That is precisely why Lafiel is attracted to him. Because Jinto is Lafiel's inferior, and because Jinto is not an abh. Lafiel's ego will never allow herself to be inferior of anyone, in any relationship. And it is precisely because Jinto is not an abh, but at the same he is Lafiel's inferior, that makes him attractive to Lafiel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now here we really disagree. I dont see Jinto as being indecisive. I see him as looking like he's indecisive. There is a difference. Jinto plays the fool, but thats because he cannot afford to stand out very much. Lafiel is attracted to him because she recognizes his strength underneath his facade. If he really were a wuss Lafiel would run right over him and not even look twice. Its because he is capable of standing up to her that she respects him. When you peel away his layers, Jinto is probably one of the most capable people in the Crest series. There is little doubt that regardless of where Lafiel ends up, Jinto will probably end up as the Prime Minister down the line.

[ QUOTE ]
The abh empire, in the Star of the crest series' creator's mind is a mirro image of the Japanese empire. Both fortresses of solitude, with no continental landmass (planets) to call their own. Both are human, yet out of place with the rest of the humanity (few Japanese will ever admit that they are the equals of their fellow Asians). Japan's dream of imperial domination was crushed by the U.S. during WWII. But the Japanese can always dream of imperial glory in their mangas and anime, projecting their dream of galactic domination to even the stars.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think we are moving into the realms of the poltical here. But I will say that of course there is some projection of the Japanese psyche into Crest. All authors do it to some degree. However, its not inheirent to the Japanese. Also, you cant draw too many comparisons to the Abh from the Japanese. Dont forget that the Abh are not isolationalist. They move freely throughout the universe and from what we see, at least prior to the war, they moved a large amount of other nations freight.

The Abh desire order. And they attempt to impose that on their lands. In some cases that involves invading a previously independant polity, but thats hardly unique to the Abh. The other nations, by implication, did the same thing. While we can argue whether or not the Abh idea of order is good or bad, you cant draw many real world references to it.

I think you are either drawing too many unsupported conclusions based upon your own idea of the parallels between the creators culture and that of his creation, or else you are simply attempting to create an argument. I think we should keep the discussion about Crest and Banner as much as possible.

Orca

11-25-2004, 12:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
[ QUOTE ]
As a side note, it's interesting to see that by the end, Jinto truly has embraced being Abh - there's none of the indecision present in Banner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah. A good discussion. Is it only because of his love for Lafiel that he embraces the Abh way & philosophy etc. so deeply?

In the event of surviving her, would he continue being as Abh, or (say) become more like Sansom - a soldier-sailor serving in a particular army? In other words is he assimilated to their culture or just deeply personally influenced by his princess? /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure it can be easily separated - though I suspect the former rather than the latter - though in part for the same reasons. He no longer thinks of himself as exclusively a Lander (I get the impression he doesn't really consider himself a Lander at all by the end, but this is pure conjecture on my part) in large part because of Lafiel (and because of his growing responsibilities as Count Hyde). If she were to die, I don't see him turning around and letting go of all that - he might be whipped, but he does have his convictions which he doesn't change or let go of easily...

Compare Jinto to Samson for example. Samson is sometimes still surprised by general Abh behavior after all his time in the Star Forces (see Ekuryua's little comment about not being his friend /images/graemlins/happy.gif) - while by the end Jinto can explain why the Abh might scourge a planet simply to pacify it...though I can't remember if he was properly horrified or not (I seem to remember not, heh. Anybody care to clarify?).

Kellory

11-25-2004, 03:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
If she were to die, I don't see him turning around and letting go of all that - he might be whipped, but he does have his convictions which he doesn't change or let go of easily...

[/ QUOTE ]

That everyone seems to think Jinto is a wuss makes me sad. I've always considered Jinto to be one of the strongest characters in the Crest universe. Its just that his strength is subtle.

You touched on it when you pointed out his convictions dont change easily. Of all the Crest characters he is the most secure in himself. While Jinto may at times question what he is, or what he is becoming, he never questions who he is. He knows who he is and what his ultimate responsibilities are.

He is, however, afraid of making a fool of himself and revealing his lack of knowledge. So instead of acting arogant and like he knows everything like some Abh *cough*lafiel*cough, he chooses instead of feign ignorance. This is obvious when he commits his one real social gaffe by not recognizing Lafiel. He is quite embarassed by it all. Although it turns out well in the end.

We see how Jinto is even able to manipulate Lafiel when they dock at the Febdash station. Lafiel spends a good 5 minutes dithering and second guessing herself as to the Baron's intentions. She doesnt trust the Baron given the run around they faced, but at the same time she has to trust that he is an Abh. Jinto, by pretending not to know about duty and responsibility, gets Lafiel back on track by making her vocalize and realize that the Baron will not abandon his responsibilities. While they might not be safe and the Baron may be up to something, it is not something that will involve the Baron stealing their ship or something else that would impact the Star Forces.

At the other end of the spectrum Lafiel is sure in what she is, a member of the royalty, but she is still in conflict as to who she is. She is still coming to terms with the concept that as an Abriel she must put the empire before herself. She knows this on an intellectual level, but it really doesnt sink in until she see's the remains of the battle at the end of Banner II. In this respect Lafiel is actually a weaker character than Jinto. But at the same time they play well off each other. Lafiel helps Jinto find his way to what he is, and Jinto helps Lafiel come to grips with her responsibilities.

[ QUOTE ]
Compare Jinto to Samson for example. Samson is sometimes still surprised by general Abh behavior after all his time in the Star Forces (see Ekuryua's little comment about not being his friend /images/graemlins/happy.gif) - while by the end Jinto can explain why the Abh might scourge a planet simply to pacify it...though I can't remember if he was properly horrified or not (I seem to remember not, heh. Anybody care to clarify?).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the real difference is that Samson is only an Abh for the higher pay scale. He is a "mustang". An officer that came up from the ranks and as such doesnt really care much for the traditions or rules of his new rank. He never really tries to understand the Abh except in how they relate to his immediate job or existance. So their bluntness, for example, catches him off guard sometimes.

Jinto, on the other hand, has been raised to be an Abh even if he doesnt really understand all the intricacies yet. For Samson being Abh is just like a different set of clothes to wear. For Jinto its a way of life.

And while I agree Jinto has grown in his understanding of the Abh and how they think, I'm sure he would still be horrified at the idea of destroying a planet's atmosphere. But he recognizes both that Lafiel simply gave it as a cost effective solution, but also because it was an effective negotiation tactic. When he pretty much publically rejects Lafiels suggestion it gives him an in with the planetary government as a negotiator who is willing to compromise.

The implication is rather clear. You'd rather be dealing with me the former lander than that crazed blue hair'd bitch upstairs who might just blow you all away because she cant be bothered to deal with you so wouldnt you rather be sensible and cooperate? It helps him gain the cooperation of the government and various leaders. You'll note as long as things were going well in the negotiations, Jinto was pretty open and decisive about what the Abh could and couldnt do. But when things werent going the way he thought they should, he usually fell back upon the line of, "I'm only the deputy ambassador". This usually got results in that line of thought was discarded and the leaders came up with something else rather than have to deal with Lafiel.

Ultimately the Abh are the last word in pragmatism and practicality. Even if some of them, like Lafiel, sometimes lack common sense. For example it was eminently practical for Lafiel to check to see if they had space suits to escape from the Bardon Febdash. Somewhat lacking in common sense though since even Forest Gump would realize that prisoners are generally not issued items that would aid in escape. As calmly as he took her suggestion to blast the planets atmosphere away as a theoretical possibility, I'm sure if Lafiel actually suggested it in the heat of battle, Jinto would probably end up banging his head against the nearest wall a few times before sighing and pointing out to Lafiel that one probably would not want to kill a planetary population simply to get at a few rebels.

Ultimately I think that is what explains the Jinto/Lafiel pairing the best. If Lafiel is the gung ho, full speed ahead, consequences be damned personality, then Jinto is her reality check and common sense meter. She pushes him to become more than he is, and he functions as her speed brake. Its very symbiotic as opposed to the parasitic relationship many seem to think it is.

Kellory

11-25-2004, 04:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
fractured78 said:
Upon rewatching the first half I really did notice that Crest made lots of comments about class conflict. Specifically-having formally distinct classes (Abh and not-Abh) created all sorts of descrimination and stereotyping. By being an Abh nobleman but visibly not-Abh, Jinto even more looked down upon by not-Abhs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think thats not entirely true. The non-Abhs dont really seem to care. Certainly Doran didnt, nor did the rest of his friends there. Intimidated perhaps, but they didnt reject him really. Indeed many non-Abh seemed to aspire to be Abh. Like many on Sufugnaf and in the Febdash barony. It seems only a few Abh and the United Mankind seemed to really have a problem. Most of it is more in Jinto's mind than anywhere else.

Nor does it seem that there is that much class warfare as far as the Abh are concerned. There is some resentment, but its more of cultural warfare between the Abh way and that of the UM and other nations. There are classes within the Abh, but most seem fairly content as they can always move up either through service to a noble or through the Star Forces should they choose to.

[ QUOTE ]
As for the more recent episodes:

1. Baron Febdash, was he just misguided or an example of what happens when someone has absolute power? (Nonserious comment-would the resident pervs on AoD not act the same given his power? They'll probably never look at this thread, though...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Are we talking about his maids or his decision to imprison Lafiel and Jinto? Honestly if I had the ability I dont think I'd mind surrounding myself with a bunch of fairly subservient serving women. I'm sure it would get tedious after awhile though.

If we're talking about how Febdashed acted towards Lafiel then I would say he was simply acting as he saw fit. Not necessarily even misguided. As a noble in his realm he has pretty much dictatorial powers. Even Lafiel is unable to find fault with how he does things, although she obviously doesnt like it or him. While she does what she can to circumvent him, she never attempts to seize control of the barony nor try to subvert the Baron's authority. That comes entirely from the free will of his vassals who choose their sides based upon their own preconceptions.

Something important is that Lafiel allowed Febdash to act as he saw fit the entire time, even up to choosing his form of death. It was his right and responsibility to act as he saw fit to preserve his barony and his vassals. It was probably arguable that seceeding temporarily from the empire to preserve the barony and people would be justified given the strategic positions, lack of forces in the barony, and lack of any real value to the system.

I think its important to note that as misguided and wrong we might feel his actions were as a person, as a noble of the empire he always acted honorably in relation to his duty to protect his barony and vassals. Even Lafiel was unable to argue that he wasnt. Even at the height of that little rebellion, he took the time to make sure his other vassals were aware of the atmosphere loss and would take steps to fix it. He could have undoubtly hidden out in his ship, and I'm sure he had access to emergency space suits and survival gear. But not everyone on the station would, or would be able to react in time. So before heading off, he made sure that everyone would be cared for. It seems like a little point, but it underscores that he took his responsibilities as seriously as Lafiel even though they were fundmentally in conflict with each other.

I dont think it was a case of absolute power corrupting so much as his isolation and power made him very insular in his thinking and prevented him from seeing the larger picture. His power meant that he became more concerned with his honor than his duty. His honor was in keeping his domain safe, but his duty was to the empire and in that he did fail.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Did Lafiel look better with blue or black hair?

[/ QUOTE ]
Blue. Most defintely blue. There is no better color for hair in the anime universe. If there is anything that cements my love for the Crest universe its the abundance of blue haired girls.

[ QUOTE ]
3. Have you ever had difficulty relying on others like Lafiel does to Jinto?

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Professionally no. I delegate to others according to the ability and my needs. Some people recieve more trust and responsibilities than others based upon their abilities and temperment. Personally...I'm a control freak and find it hard to rely on others in my personal life.

[ QUOTE ]
4. If you were to classify yourself as a character in Crest of Stars who would you be most like?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably Admiral Trife's Chief of Staff. I forget what the major's name is offhand and I'm at work. But mainly I'm a troubleshooter and I enjoy finding solutions to problems and I love strategy. But unlike Spoor's Chief of Staff I'm capable of recognizing events beyond my own experience.

[ QUOTE ]
5. Education - Is this where the real power is? (In reference to the teaching of the United Mankind about the Abh) Hmm, I so want to go into current era politics on this one, but I sooooooo must stay away!

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd argue both yes and no. Yes, education is where the real power is because it is one's early education that generally creates who and what we are. However, it is not education in and of itself that shapes us. The real power lies in our philosophy, and while that is learned it is possible to learn a new one.

The real difference between the Abh and the UM lies not in their education, but in their philosophy. The Abh are very open and free. They believe in freedom of choice and conscience. Even the Baron Febdash is free to pursue whatever path he chooses, even to his own destruction, so long as it doesnt conflict with their higher duty to the empire. The UM, on the other hand, is very rigid in its philosophy and as such leads itself to problems more often than not.

It is the rigidity of UM philosophy that leads to the Battle of Sufugnaf. And while we learn later that ships there had a purpose in drawing off the Abh Star Forces there from the Capital which was the true UM target the actual battle was pointless for the UM and they should have simply retreated after achieving their objective of drawing off the Star Forces. But their rigid command structure, which is simply a symptom of their rigid philosophy, made that impossible.

I believe what we learn is less important generally, than how we learn to apply that knowledge. Its the difference between intelligence and wisdom.

[ QUOTE ]
6. What series do you want to discuss next?
I will be posting a poll on this, but I'd like some ideas. Right now I have:
<ul type="square"> Banner of the Stars I/II Saikano Serial Experiments Lain Devil Lady Kino's Journey Neon Genesis Evangelion RahXephon [/list]

[/ QUOTE ]

Lain. I so need to go through that and try to make more sense of it. Without being drunk so I can remember what I thought originally.

Orca

11-25-2004, 08:02 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:
That everyone seems to think Jinto is a wuss makes me sad. I've always considered Jinto to be one of the strongest characters in the Crest universe. Its just that his strength is subtle.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's not a wuss. He IS very dedicated to Lafiel and tends to acquiesce to her - hence "whipped". This isn't a bad thing! /images/graemlins/happy.gif It simply means he's very attached to her. You see the same thing happen when many guys get a girlfriend or wife.

[ QUOTE ]
You touched on it when you pointed out his convictions dont change easily. Of all the Crest characters he is the most secure in himself. While Jinto may at times question what he is, or what he is becoming, he never questions who he is. He knows who he is and what his ultimate responsibilities are.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the most part, yes. Lafiel for example has a massive chip on her shoulder as she tries to prove she's competent independant of her family name (whether it's to everyone or to herself is something that is unclear to me).

[ QUOTE ]
He is, however, afraid of making a fool of himself and revealing his lack of knowledge. So instead of acting arogant and like he knows everything like some Abh *cough*lafiel*cough, he chooses instead of feign ignorance. This is obvious when he commits his one real social gaffe by not recognizing Lafiel. He is quite embarassed by it all. Although it turns out well in the end.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree that he's feigning ignorance - it's just not his nature to be arrogant. He wasn't brought up that way - and he wasn't brought up as a priveleged member of a royal family, one who it's expected will become empress (well emperor in this case). He's perfectly willing to step up and take control when he thinks he has the best judgement for the job - look at Crest when they land, or how he effectively takes over most of the duties of the Viceroy on Lobnass. And see his uncertainty about how he should act when first stepping foot on the Gosroth. Certainly he had to know he'd look pretty silly when asking about how a noble should act on the bridge of a major warship.

[ QUOTE ]
We see how Jinto is even able to manipulate Lafiel when they dock at the Febdash station. Lafiel spends a good 5 minutes dithering and second guessing herself as to the Baron's intentions. She doesnt trust the Baron given the run around they faced, but at the same time she has to trust that he is an Abh. Jinto, by pretending not to know about duty and responsibility, gets Lafiel back on track by making her vocalize and realize that the Baron will not abandon his responsibilities. While they might not be safe and the Baron may be up to something, it is not something that will involve the Baron stealing their ship or something else that would impact the Star Forces.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure that was just feigned ignorance (though it isn't clear one way or another as far as I can tell) - remember all he's had is book learning up to this point. There's a big difference between book learning and actually knowing the people and culture on a personal basis - and individuals are generally more important than cultures.

[ QUOTE ]
Lafiel helps Jinto find his way to what he is, and Jinto helps Lafiel come to grips with her responsibilities.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he is and what his culture expects of him - and how to fulfill it.

[ QUOTE ]
For Samson being Abh is just like a different set of clothes to wear. For Jinto it's a way of life.

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Hm! Nice insight there. And yeah, definitely well supported by his retirement plans, his desire to see and enjoyment of going down to a surface world, the fact that he doesn't consider himself Abh at all...

[ QUOTE ]
Ultimately I think that is what explains the Jinto/Lafiel pairing the best. If Lafiel is the gung ho, full speed ahead, consequences be damned personality, then Jinto is her reality check and common sense meter. She pushes him to become more than he is, and he functions as her speed brake. Its very symbiotic as opposed to the parasitic relationship many seem to think it is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. Jinto acts to soften the hard and uncompromising edges of Lafiel - imagine an empress with something to prove to the universe! - while Lafiel helps him slot into the Abh power structure as is expected of him - and also is the only friend he's known since he left the planet he was studying on. Ku Durin and his schoolmates have most likely either scattered to the winds or set down roots on their planet...and sat out the war. His home planet was taken as the opening shot of said war. I'm kind of coming at this obliquely, but I think that Lafiel tends to serve as an anchor (in the stabilizing sense) for him in the Abh universe.

Finally, I think I finally figured out why I say Jinto's fully accepted being Abh...by the end, his understanding of, and response to certain aspects of Abh thought remind me a LOT of the old Baron Febdash - who is also a Lander->Abh...

Njr Scrawl

11-25-2004, 11:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
The real difference between the Abh and the UM lies not in their education, but in their philosophy. The Abh are very open and free. They believe in freedom of choice and conscience. Even the Baron Febdash is free to pursue whatever path he chooses, even to his own destruction, so long as it doesnt conflict with their higher duty to the empire. The UM, on the other hand, is very rigid in its philosophy and as such leads itself to problems more often than not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I prefer the Abh, although would resent & fear them if on a planet under their control.
Being part of a warrior empire, or lackey of same, is to be a target for that empire's enemies.

But UM in Crest is too like the Zeon of MSG (for an animÃ© reference). Their racist propoganda is too familiar in tone to real life racist propoganda from Earth's nations' own past and present. All advanced nations have practiced it in their imperial days, and its still too prevalent today.

fractured78

11-25-2004, 01:34 PM

/images/graemlins/happy.gif

So many good comments in the recent posts! I haven't posted any replies because everyone has been having such a good discussion already! I'm sure there's a lot of people on the thread like that...reading but not writing, just want to say to keep up the debate because we enjoy it. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Kellory

11-25-2004, 06:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
He's not a wuss. He IS very dedicated to Lafiel and tends to acquiesce to her - hence "whipped". This isn't a bad thing! /images/graemlins/happy.gif It simply means he's very attached to her. You see the same thing happen when many guys get a girlfriend or wife.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps I just dont define whipped the same way. When I think someone is whipped, to me it implies that guy has little to no freewill when it comes to his partner. If she offers a contradictory statement he will always follow, and will generally aquiese to her demands. Jinto, on the other hand, while he is devoted to her does have a mind of his own. He follows Lafiel's lead generally only when he seems to think she has knowledge he doesnt. He will argue with her, tease her, and differ with her.

Heck, Lafiel wouldnt even bother to assign him as the deputy territorial ambassador if he were whipped. She might as well just do it herself. Just because he is devoted to her and supports her doesnt really make him whipped.

[ QUOTE ]
For the most part, yes. Lafiel for example has a massive chip on her shoulder as she tries to prove she's competent independant of her family name (whether it's to everyone or to herself is something that is unclear to me).

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I think she's trying to prove shes competent OF her family name. This is a Japanese show after all, and living up to one's name is probably one of the most important thing. Her entire existance, at least up to the end of Banner II revolved around living up to the Abriel name. And while I agree Lafiel has a chip on her shoulder, I think its less to do with arrogance, than recognition of what she is. She even tells Jinto that literally no one calls her by her first name. She has been isolated for her entire life and she would have to measure everyone based upon they're either being syncophants or else people who simply want to distance themselves from her for fear of being seen as syncophants. She has yet to gain the experience and maturity necessary to appear detatched instead of arrogant.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't agree that he's feigning ignorance - it's just not his nature to be arrogant. He wasn't brought up that way - and he wasn't brought up as a priveleged member of a royal family, one who it's expected will become empress (well emperor in this case). He's perfectly willing to step up and take control when he thinks he has the best judgement for the job - look at Crest when they land, or how he effectively takes over most of the duties of the Viceroy on Lobnass. And see his uncertainty about how he should act when first stepping foot on the Gosroth. Certainly he had to know he'd look pretty silly when asking about how a noble should act on the bridge of a major warship.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not saying his feigned ignorance is a deliberate thing, but probably more an unconscience understanding of how little practical knowledge he has. He has quite a vast store of education, but he doesnt know how to act. So he tries to appear like he doesnt know the answer and takes his cues from those around him. You'll note that whenever someone asks him a direct question, he always knows the answer.

[ QUOTE ]
Absolutely. Jinto acts to soften the hard and uncompromising edges of Lafiel - imagine an empress with something to prove to the universe! - while Lafiel helps him slot into the Abh power structure as is expected of him - and also is the only friend he's known since he left the planet he was studying on. Ku Durin and his schoolmates have most likely either scattered to the winds or set down roots on their planet...and sat out the war. His home planet was taken as the opening shot of said war. I'm kind of coming at this obliquely, but I think that Lafiel tends to serve as an anchor (in the stabilizing sense) for him in the Abh universe.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think all their emperors and empresses are like that really. It would be hard to imagine them otherwise. In fact, they're probably even worse than Lafiel. Lafiel has a lot more empathy than most of the Abh royalty that we've seen. Lafiel does care in a fashion about those around her, even if she doesnt really know them. Its hard to believe the other Admiral Abriels do other than as counters.

In actuality I think Jinto is actually the anchor in this relationship. Lafiel is actually the one thats been far more isolated than Jinto. I agree Lafiel is a stabalizing presence for him, but I do think Jinto would do well regardless. Lafiel, on the other hand, would probably not. Without Jinto, her empathy would probably cause her to become even more distant and arrogant than she was as she attempts to wall herself off from the universe.

I really dont believe even her father would have questioned his right and responsibility to send Spoor into battle, even a losing battle. The Abriels we've seen would have accepted it as a cost of business in order to accomplish their own mission. Lafiel constantly worries about those around her and her position means she cant really show it. Without Jinto to lean on and anchor her, she would probably end up becoming a control freak and martinet.

[ QUOTE ]
Finally, I think I finally figured out why I say Jinto's fully accepted being Abh...by the end, his understanding of, and response to certain aspects of Abh thought remind me a LOT of the old Baron Febdash - who is also a Lander->Abh...

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. I agree. Although I do think he's not quite as accepting of Abh ways as the former baron. Jinto understands the Abh now, but I dont think he really agrees with a lot of it. He is simply keeping his own opinions because he believes its his responsibility of a noble to uphold the Abh way. I see Jinto in the years to come as one of the Abh Prime Ministers and working to change some of ways of the Abh.

Orca

11-25-2004, 11:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:Actually I think she's trying to prove she's competent OF her family name.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an interesting distinction to make - and one that is wholly appropriate given the background it was written from. My western bias must be showing...

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I really think all their emperors and empresses are like that really. It would be hard to imagine them otherwise. In fact, they're probably even worse than Lafiel. Lafiel has a lot more empathy than most of the Abh royalty that we've seen. Lafiel does care in a fashion about those around her, even if she doesnt really know them. Its hard to believe the other Admiral Abriels do other than as counters.

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It's hard to reconcile that with the behavior of both the Empress and Lafiel's father (though the other royalty would tend to support your argument). The Empress's demeanor struck me as more similar to Lexshue's than anybody else - calm, cool, collected, and willing to do whatever it takes to keep her [ship/empire] in the best position possible given the circumstances.

[ QUOTE ]
In actuality I think Jinto is actually the anchor in this relationship.

[/ QUOTE ]

We aren't disagreeing. /images/graemlins/happy.gif My point is that Lafiel has served in large part to provide an anchor for assimilating Jinto into the Abh culture.

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I see Jinto in the years to come as one of the Abh Prime Ministers and working to change some of ways of the Abh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or at the least serving to moderate their excesses, like he did on Lobnass.

Kellory

11-26-2004, 01:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
It's hard to reconcile that with the behavior of both the Empress and Lafiel's father (though the other royalty would tend to support your argument). The Empress's demeanor struck me as more similar to Lexshue's than anybody else - calm, cool, collected, and willing to do whatever it takes to keep her [ship/empire] in the best position possible given the circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. The Empress is certainly willing to do whatever it takes. And I mean whatever it takes to ensure the safety of the realm. She knows full well that they are heading to war regardless of what happens at the end of Crest. So she simply declares war. There is little point in giving your enemy even more time to prepare.

But she certainly would not hesitate to sacrafice anyone for the safety of the realm. She would sacrafice Lafiel, her father, anyone if it were necessary and she wouldnt feel guilt about it, nor shed tears. Well, the last is obvious. Even her father, I think, would do whatever it takes. If doing his duty meant sacraficing Lexshue I do think he would do it. I'm unsure at this point that Lafiel could do the same thing to Jinto again.

The price of command is something she is only now begining to come to terms with. And the highest price is the knowledge that she will have to send people off to die from safety. The real question is whether or not she is capable of really doing that. She is even questioning that in herself.

From the sound of the other Abriels I'm fairly sure none of them ever really questioned themselves in that way.

Orca

11-26-2004, 09:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:But [the Empress] certainly would not hesitate to sacrafice anyone for the safety of the realm. She would sacrafice Lafiel, her father, anyone if it were necessary and she wouldnt feel guilt about it, nor shed tears. Well, the last is obvious.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to know exactly what she'd feel - but remember that part of it is the cool, collected, and *in control* demeanor is expected of her. We don't know what she's feeling inside, and don't have enough time with her to really see (while we do have enough time to see the cracks in Lafiel's facade). She isn't an inhuman robot...and something to remember is that all the people in the military have sworn an oath (or given their word in the case of the Abh probably) to be used as the Abh Empire needs them. If she *doesn't* make the maximum use of them to the best of her abilities, that's breaking that bond. Hm, poorly worded, but I think you get the idea. And it's likely she would feel guilty about it...but she'd do whatever was necessary without crying about it - publically/obviously anyway.

[ QUOTE ]
Even her father, I think, would do whatever it takes. If doing his duty meant sacraficing Lexshue I do think he would do it. I'm unsure at this point that Lafiel could do the same thing to Jinto again.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure either, given her comments. She did once, but it really affected her - enough for her to take a leave from command to join Jinto...and probably-not-incidentally *not* be his commander.

[ QUOTE ]
The price of command is something she is only now begining to come to terms with. And the highest price is the knowledge that she will have to send people off to die from safety.

[/ QUOTE ]

Which is something I have seen virtually never depicted on-screen that I found it absolutely wonderful to see. It also made for some tremendously nerve-wracking to see if she'd do the stupid/typical thing and order a long shot rescue that would probably end up causing more harm than good, or if she'd leave him to his own devices...a victim of a lack of time and resources. Up until The Decision I was literally muttering under my breath "don't try to rescue him don't try to rescue him don't try to rescue him." :p

[ QUOTE ]
The real question is whether or not she is capable of really doing that. She is even questioning that in herself.

[/ QUOTE ]

She has once - and her behavior afterward indicated she could probably do it again...so long as she doesn't personally know and love some of the people she's ordering to do this. She was worried more about Jinto than all the thousands of dead, and while she felt guilty about it...well, Jinto's wellfare was what was important.

Something I'd like to see cleared up is her precise words though. The Bandai translation put it to something of the effect of "Father, I don't know if I can do this" as I recall - which is pretty strong words. An alternate translation I've seen was "Father, I'm being weak." Given the slight smile she seemed to have, that made it take on more a sense of irony than of giving up. I do wonder which of the two is more accurate...

[ QUOTE ]
From the sound of the other Abriels I'm fairly sure none of them ever really questioned themselves in that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's their public facade. Remember Lafiel has seen her father (his name is escaping me at the moment) crying without shedding tears (and presumably he did so when he heard about the death of Lexshue).

Natsume_Maya

11-29-2004, 01:03 AM

Going back to the original set of questions...

[ QUOTE ]
fractured78 said:
2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, he didn't. I leave aside the issue of whether he should have fought, because that's been discussed quite a bit.

Rock Lin appears to have sold out his planet for his own personal advancement. I know this issue has been touched on in this thread, and that it's not made expressly clear whether Rock asked to be ennobled or whether he was ennobled anyway, but to me, the impression created by the anime is that he had done a deal with the Abh to secure his position: eg even Teal, his right hand man, calls it a bad deal; Teal appears angry at Rock, not afraid for him; then there's the angry mob at the press conference. He sneaks off to the Imperial Capital before any public announcement is made. Nor does the anime try to disabuse us of the impression thus created.

Even if Rock didn't sell out his planet, and even if the Abh appointed him administrator of their own motion, the series deals with themes of honour, duty, status and responsibility. As leader of the planet, Rock had a duty, if he was going to become Abh appointed administrator, to make it clear that he had done no deal (ie that he was genuinely acting the interests of the people). Justice must not only be done, it must be seen to be done. And if the people didn't believe him, then he had a duty to step down or decline the appointment. It's clear he had lost the trust of the people because he was ultimately deposed.

That's why I think he did the wrong thing.

11-29-2004, 03:28 AM

Hi everyone. Sorry to jump into the thread so late, but a CotS/BotS discussion is too interesting to pass on. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

On Rock Lin's decisions, this is how things transpired in the original Japanese novel...

Background
Martine is a lost colony. Their colonists took off from Earth during the height of colonization using Uanon-particle powered spaceships. (That is, before the discovery of FTL travel via Planar Space). During that age, tens of colony ships would depart at once, each heading in a random direction with a simple mission to "find some suitable planet and settle there."

The colonists spent many generations wandering space in their colony ship, the Leif Ericsson, before settling on planet Martine in the Hyde System (named after the first captain of the Leif Ericsson). During this time, technology had advanced and surpassed them. FTL travel was discovered, and many interstellar countries/empires had been borne and some had even died out. The colonists on Martine had no idea what's going on in the rest of the Milky Way galaxy (the scope of CotS/BotS, humanity and Abh haven't made the jump to the next galaxy yet). The lack of FTL communication in CotS/BotS story universe means the Martine people have no way to contact Earth to let them know they've found a colony or find out where other colonies are.

(Besides, by Jinto's time Earth has been destroyed for hundreds if not thousands of years, due to the Sun going supernova prematurely -- the final act of arrogance and stupidity in the Solar System, according to the opening narration in the Birth short story. But I digress.)

The Events
1) 172 years after the colonists landed on Martine, an Abh explorer vessel opened a new Saudec (Sort/Zord, I forgot how Bandai spelled it. It's the gate that allows travel into Planar Universe). A Saudec is essentially a Uanon particle in its second, or active state. This particular Uanon particle happened to be the power source for the Leif Ericsson, now kept at a close, geosynchoral oribt above the colony as a historical relic to remind them of their origins.

This explains the mysterious explosion you see in the opening of ep. 1. That's the Leif Ericsson exploding in a million pieces as the Uanon particle that powered its engine becomes a gate into Planar Space.

2) The Abh explorer vessel orbited Martine three times, before disappearing into the Saudec again. It refused all attempts at communications (there were no shootings from either side in the novel), but showed considerable interest to the planet and seemed to engage in intelligence gathering activities during the three orbits.

3) Rock Lin kept the details of the incident from everyone, in order to avoid a panic. Only he, and the duty personel at (whatever their equivalent of mission control/NORAD) knew what happened. Not even Teal knew the truth about the incident.

4) 24 days later, the Abh fleet showed up and issued their ultimatum, as shown in the anime.

5) What's not shown in the anime, is that the Crown Prince gave Martine 3 days to respond to the ultimatum. During this time, the people of Martine were welcomed and encouraged to talk to anyone from his fleet to verify the truth about the Abh Empire and life as being part of it. Rock Lin's government spent that time learning as much as they could, and decided the Crown Prince wasn't lying. It became clear that resistance was futile, and that considerable freedom remained as part of the Empire.

6) Rock Lin decided surrender is their only logical option. However, he realized that the Abh would appoint a proxy governor (ala Lafiel/Jinto in BotS II) to run the system, and may eventually award it to some Abh family. He also knew that said Abh would view Martine as just a cash cow, and would not respect the sanctity of the indigeneous life that evolved there.

Side note: Martine is very special in that the planet has evolved high-level (mammals) indigeneous lifeforms. When the colony was founded, the colonists understood their very presence is a disruption to the local ecological system, and so confined their colony to just 1 city and tried their best to minimize their impact on the planet's ecology. Rock Lin was sure the Abhs would have no qualms exploiting the planet's resources and indigeneous lifeforms as a trade revenue.

7) Rock Lin asked the Crown Prince to bend the rules and appoint a Martine local as the governor/ruler instead. Normally, stewardship of a star system is awarded only to those that has contributed greatly to the Abh Empire. On a whim however, the Crown Prince agreed and named Rock Lin the ruler of the Hyde System. (He thought it'll be neat to personally create a new noble house. He's quite proud of that fact later.)

8) Since the Crown Prince essentially made a deal with Rock Lin, by Abh mentality he must get something in return -- fair trade and all, even if only symbolic. The Prince asked for, and received, the key codes to deactivate Martine's planetary defense system, even though it really was totally ineffective against their vessels. This however, created the impression among Martines that the Abhs were actually worried about those system defense, and sealed Rock Lin's fate in their minda, including Teal.

9) Rock Lin was quickly whisked away to the capital, to complete his formal elevation to Count. This brings us to the point in the anime where Teal comes to pick up Jinto. Not knowing the whole story, Teal was of course, very angry at the Lin's.

Interesting Tidbits
Teal is Rock Lin's private secretary, from the days when Rock Lin was just an Assembly Man. Teal and Lina (his wife) spent more time raising Jinto than Rock Lin himself (being planetary president is time consuming). Throughout CotS/BotS, whenever Jinto thinks about who his parents, he's thinking about Teal and Lina.

fractured78

11-29-2004, 03:57 AM

It's never too late to join in the discussion.

Wow, thanks for the information! That's a whole lot of stuff that the anime just skips over. I guess, in the end, Rock did the only thing he could...but ends up getting crucified for it. (Or whatever way he's killed when the United Mankind take over.) I'm curious...in the novels does Jinto even feel sad when his father dies? It's glossed over so much in the anime that I can barely recall it even happening.

fractured78

11-29-2004, 03:59 AM

In light of Ahjenta's information I would have to disagree. He made the best choice possible out of many crappy choices. His only mistake is that he needed better PR people. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

11-29-2004, 04:10 AM

Bandai mangled the translation of various Abh ship-classes and their military formations. Here is what they're really called and explained in the novels...

Assault Ships (Gairh)
These are small, fast, and maneuverable vessels armed with an anti-proton cannon and point-defense laser guns. They are organized in flights of six. Weak in defense, they are often used in large numbers. Lafiel's ship, the Basroil, is an assault ship.

Btw, Hecto-Commander Atosuryua's assault ship is called a Lead Assault Ship (Almgairh) . It is specifically designed for the commander of each flight. It has an enlarged bridge for 2 extra officers (an Executive Officer and a Chief-of-Staff), and expanded capacity for communication and information processing. Its combat capabilities are the same as a typical assault ship of the same class.

Escorts (Laitec)
Armed with many rapid firing point-defense laser guns, an escort aggressively seeks out and engages incoming mines, initiating space-time fusion with them in Planar Space. They are small ships, though not very fast or maneuverable. They too, operate in flights of six.

Scout Cruisers (Resic)
Bandai really screwed up when they called this a Patrol Ship. A patrol ship generally implies a short-ranged, coastal defense vessel. Whereas author Morioka's original term combines the military term for "Cruiser" and "Reconnaissance." In describing this class of vessel, he deliberately draws a comparison with an armored cavalry regiment -- fast in mobility, heavy in firepower, and light in logistic baggage, able to operate without support inside enemy territories. Nobody will send a US Coast Guard Cutter (a patrol ship) to join a carrier battlegroup, but an armored cavalry regiment is the spearhead of any US mechanized forces.

A Scout Cruiser is armed with forward and rearward-firing electromagnetic cannons. They also have a weaker (than the assault ships) version of anti-proton cannons mounted on turrets, as well as point-defense laser guns. An Abh Scout Cruiser also comes with 10 mines, which as Spaurh pointed out in CotS, are never used in defense (that is, shooting down incoming mines) but rather for offense (taking out enemy assault ships).

The Gothelauth, which was destroyed in CotS, was a scout cruiser. So is the entire First Fleet, commanded by Spaurh. Also, all battlegroup and fleet flagships are Scout Cruisers, some of which are specifically designed for such duties.

A scout cruiser usually operates individually, or as a half-flight of three ships. Occasionally they operate in a flight of six, but this is uncommon.

Battleships (Alaicec)
In naval terms, a battleship is a specific class of ships, armed with just one type of main guns mounted on turrets (usually positioned along its spinal axis), and just one type of secondary guns for dealing with destroyers and torpedo boats. Up till the introduction of the HMS Dreadnought class battleship, ship-of-the line (or early battleships if you may) has a variety of main and secondary guns dealing with all kinds of perceived threats. The Dreadnought eliminated all those complexities and gave us the modern definition of a battleship. For example, the USS Iowa is armed with 16-inch guns as its main armament and 5-inch guns for small vessel/anti-air defense.

In BotS, battleships are those that shoot lots and lots of mines. A typical one carries about 100, a large one carries 200. They have very poor point-defense capability and if a scout cruiser ever manage to survive the hordes of mines and get a space-time fusion with them, they are toast. However, as long as the mines last, and up till the moment of space-time fusion, battleships are pretty much invincible in Planar Space battles, as they are the only ships that have a substantial long-range attack capability. (The 10 mines from a scout cruiser have little hope of surviving the point-defense of an enemy scout cruiser.)

Some called them ship-of-the-line, but that's old naval speak, as it refers to any ships that belong to the main battleline. (In WW II this included heavy cruisers, and in BotS this would definitely include the Scout Cruisers) Thus I choose to call them battleships.

Attack Ships
Mentioned at the end of BotS I and introduced in BotS III, this is a new class of ships developed by the Abhs. Larger than an assault ship but smaller than a scout cruiser, an attack ship is armed with electromagnetic cannons as its primary weapon but lacking any mines whatsoever. It has just finished operational trials and is accepted into Star Forces (Laburec) service during BotS III.

Attack ships operate in flights of six, but often splits into half-flights of three in combat. They can also operate as singles at times. These ships have yet to prove their worth in actual combat, however.

Lafiel receives an attack ship by the end of BotS III, in Atosuryua's 1st Attack Ship Battlegroup no less.

Assault Transports (Lussomiac)
Probably the only Abh ships capable of atmospheric entry and planet-side landing. These are used for the truly rare occasions when the Star Forces need to send Marines down to a planet. They are also used to land supplies on planets that lack an orbital elevator/dock facility, as shown in BotS II.

Communication Ships (Longiac)
About the size of a small freighter, these ships carry VIPs in addition to serving as communication vessels. And as such, it has much better accommodations and far more comfortable than what you see in Lafiel and Jinto's communication shuttle (Pairriac) in CotS.

Others
Include transports, re-supply and underway replenishment vessels, repair ships, and many other logistics vessels vital to a fleet's operational capability.

Abh Fleet Organization
The formations, from largest to the smallest:

- Fleet (example, Spaurh's First Fleet)
- Battlegroup (roughly 300 ships)
- Squadron
- Flight

So, in BotS I, Lafiel's Basroil belongs to:

1st Assault Flight, 1058th Assault Squadron, Assault Battlegroup Latuush, Aptic Defense Fleet.

Natsume_Maya

11-29-2004, 04:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
Hi everyone. Sorry to jump into the thread so late, but a CotS/BotS discussion is too interesting to pass on. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahjenta, welcome back /images/graemlins/happy.gif

BTW, if you intend to hang around for a while, I've got an OT question about R.O.D - The TV -... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Spoilers for the final episode of R.O.D - The TV -:
Do the novels shed any light on the significance of one of the final scenes where the dog/wolf appears before Joker. What does it mean?!

[ QUOTE ]
On Rock Lin's decisions, this is how things transpired in the original Japanese novel...

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the info. Very interesting.

[ QUOTE ]
fractured78 said:
In light of Ahjenta's information I would have to disagree. He made the best choice possible out of many crappy choices. His only mistake is that he needed better PR people. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I won't completely concede the point just yet /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

It depends on what Rock believed the Abh would've done if he stepped down. If he believed that they would've appointed a replacement administrator from offworld (which may have been possible since Ahjenta wrote the practice was to appoint someone who has done great service to the Empire), then I can understand his staying in office even if it pissed off the people.

But if the Abh would've simply appointed another local (in keeping with Rock's request to the Crown Prince that a local be appointed) then I think Rock should have stepped down: he was politically crippled by the stigma that he was an Abh collaborator (or had sold out his people), and presumably another local would've been a more harmonious and effective choice. In other words, Rock should've requested that the Crown Prince appoint a local other than himself (since it should've been obvious that it would appear that he had sold out) /images/graemlins/happy.gif

11-29-2004, 04:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
fractured78 said:
I guess, in the end, Rock did the only thing he could...but ends up getting crucified for it. (Or whatever way he's killed when the United Mankind take over.) I'm curious...in the novels does Jinto even feel sad when his father dies? It's glossed over so much in the anime that I can barely recall it even happening.

[/ QUOTE ]

Both Rock Lin and Jinto did what they see as the best for Martine, but the locals only saw two traitors. If you think Rock Lin's got a bum deal, Jinto got a even worse one in BotS III when he negotiated Martine's surrender to rejoin the Abh Empire.

As for Rock Lin's death... no Jinto doesn't really feel much sadness over it. They're never that close in the first place. To Jinto, Teal and Lina are his parents. Little Jinto was absolutely crushed by their rejection as seen in CotS -- that was his father suddenly turning cold and throwing him out to the streets, and he doesn't even know why.

I don't think Jinto ever saw Rock Lin again after he started schooling at that Citizen Preparatory School. The two communicated via video-mail, but that's about it. When Jinto arrived at the capital at the end of CotS, and found out that the Hyde System was now deep behind enemy lines, he immediately knew Rock Lin was a dead man. He took the news quite calmly and was shocked at how quickly he accepted that fact.

In BotS III, you found out from Teal just what happened to Rock Lin after the United Mankind took over. He was arrested, and Teal was appointed/elected president. Under Teal, the Hyde System pledged allegiance to the UM and joined it. UM ordered Rock Lin's execution, but Teal tried to repeal it, stating that Martine law does not allow for capital punishment. The UM overruled Teal's objection, for UM law has a mandatory death sentence for any humans collaborating with the Abhs. (Remember, in BotS II, the UM prison planet director was proud to point out they were not so barbaric as to have capital punishment for crimes. Apparently collaborating with Abhs was an exception.)

Anyways, the UM executed Rock Lin over Teal's objection, because in the UM, their laws override local planetary laws. They also placed a garrison of ground troops on the planet. (Who needs ground troops when fighting against Abhs? They DON'T want to step on the planet. Makes you wonder what the garrison is there for...) And that's how Hyde System became a part of United Mankind, until events in BotS III.

11-29-2004, 05:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
Ahjenta, welcome back /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you. I'm surprised everyone remembers me still. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It depends on what Rock believed the Abh would've done if he stepped down. If he believed that they would've appointed a replacement administrator from offworld (which may have been possible since Ahjenta wrote the practice was to appoint someone who has done great service to the Empire), then I can understand his staying in office even if it pissed off the people.

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems to be what Rock Lin thinks the Abh will do. In the novel, the scene between Jinto and his buddy Qu Dorin at the spaceport was much longer. After Jinto explained how much he doesn't want to be an Abh noble, Qu Dorin asked him why he's pursuing that path. Jinto then explained what his father said in their video-mail, that the Abhs would named a non-Martine governor if the Lin's ever stepped down, and everything special they cherished about Martine would be lost. Jinto agreed with his father, and that's why he's going down that path, even if his heart was not in it.

Of course, everything changed after he became close to Lafiel. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

evilarrex

11-29-2004, 05:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
Thank you. I'm surprised everyone remembers me still. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Some of us have good memories.... /images/graemlins/wink.gif /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

Orca

11-29-2004, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
(lots of detailed information about the Abh space forces structure that was previously unclear)

[/ QUOTE ]

Very, very nice. Thank you for that highly informative summary.

So a few things I wonder if you could clear up...

a) what the heck does "deisele" mean? Since Bandai seemed to have forgotten to translate that - even in the dub.
b) In Banner II towards the end (as she leaves the Lobnass system, and Jinto, behind), is Lafiel thinking she can't handle the pressure of command as the Bandai translation suggests? Or is she kind of scolding herself for being weak, or what?
c) Is there any data on plane-space sensor distances, maximum velocities for various ships, ranges, sensor ranges, etc.?
d) Any information on relative maximum accelerations of the various ships?

Thanks. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

wanfu2k1

11-29-2004, 01:15 PM

Sweet... good to see you back discussing CotS/BotS Ahjenta /images/graemlins/happy.gif

wanfu2k1

11-29-2004, 01:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
I won't completely concede the point just yet /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

It depends on what Rock believed the Abh would've done if he stepped down. If he believed that they would've appointed a replacement administrator from offworld (which may have been possible since Ahjenta wrote the practice was to appoint someone who has done great service to the Empire), then I can understand his staying in office even if it pissed off the people.

But if the Abh would've simply appointed another local (in keeping with Rock's request to the Crown Prince that a local be appointed) then I think Rock should have stepped down: he was politically crippled by the stigma that he was an Abh collaborator (or had sold out his people), and presumably another local would've been a more harmonious and effective choice. In other words, Rock should've requested that the Crown Prince appoint a local other than himself (since it should've been obvious that it would appear that he had sold out) /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Wee let's jump on Natsume until he conceeds /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Based on Ahjenta's accounts it looks like the crown prince was negotiating with Rock Lin, so when the deal was struck obviously the prince would appoint the person he's making the deal with the leader. I seems the abh doesn't really have elections or votes. Basically abh leaders are selected based on their contribution to the empire, like how the next emperor/empress is to be selected from the abriels. So I doubt the crown prince would go for an election to select a new ruler, he just picked the person he thought contributed the most to the deal which of course is Rock Lin.

11-29-2004, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
So a few things I wonder if you could clear up...

a) what the heck does "deisele" mean? Since Bandai seemed to have forgotten to translate that - even in the dub.

[/ QUOTE ]

Daiserre is the romanization of the Abh's pronounication of the word ”²•d (batsubyou). It is the naval term "weigh anchor" and originated in the days of wooden sailing ships. The Abhs kept the word for their space vessels as a homage to tradition.

Speaking of tradition, I went to Baltimore once and went onboard the USS Constellation, a wooden sailing ship being preserved there. Walking among the officer's quarters, I came upon a plaque describing the position "Captain's Secretary." It is essentially Jinto's job description on the Basroil. Apparently the position of Secretary does exist in sailing ships, and author Morioka must have done his own research before deciding how Abh runs their ships.

[ QUOTE ]

b) In Banner II towards the end (as she leaves the Lobnass system, and Jinto, behind), is Lafiel thinking she can't handle the pressure of command as the Bandai translation suggests? Or is she kind of scolding herself for being weak, or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Both in the novel and the anime, Lafiel has a heavy heart due to the great loss of lives the Star Forces suffered. While she wanted to be utterly convinced that the deaths of many thousands were not in vain, she couldn't eliminate that sliver of doubt in her heart. That got Lafiel to thinking about her grandmother the Empress, who, Lafiel realized now, must have faced that very same doubt every day of this war. Lafiel then wondered if she can live with that were she in her grandmother's position.

While Lafiel was not especially trying to become Empress, as an Abriel she was taught that was expected of her. She purused that goal as a matter of course without really thinking about it. And now, for the first time, she wondered if she's not cut out to be an officer in the Star Forces. That reminded her of what her father once said, that he's not cut out to be a soldier. Lafiel wondered if that's because he felt he couldn't bear the burden of blood shed on his account. She wanted to talk to him about it, and suddenly realized she hasn't met him ever since she took command of the Basroil. The scene ended with Lafiel mocking herself that she's become weak. Her reverie was then broken with an annoucement on the bridge about the enemy fleet being just transports.

That short discussion ended with the Captain saying something like "let's get out of this accursed space" which to Lafiel, sounded like he's reproaching her. She then thought, of course she should be reproached. For instead of the thousands of lives that were certain to be lost, she's more concerned about one whose fate was still unknown...

Altogether, the whole scene is a wonderful peek into Lafiel's psyche. The train of thoughts shows how she's grappling with the reality of command and making tough decisions with dire consequences for many. I didn't get the vibes she's doubting her ability to command, Rather, I think this scene proves she's a good commander, with the ability for reflection after making tough choices.

[ QUOTE ]

c) Is there any data on plane-space sensor distances, maximum velocities for various ships, ranges, sensor ranges, etc.?

[/ QUOTE ]

No hard data per se. In terms of plane-space sensor distance, the physics behind says in theory the detection distance is unlimited. In practice this means you can detect the existence of other space-time bubbles from great distances away, but there is a practical limit due to background noise.

As for maximum velocity, again there is no hard data. There is one golden rule however. In planar space a space-time bubble containing less mass moves faster than one with a larger mass. This is an absolute physical law and cannot be bent or broken. So a small assault ship will always catch up to a larger Scout Cruiser assuming both have enough fuel for the race. (Hence the Gothelauth could not outrun the assault ships in CotS; also why they sent assault ships to chase down those United Mankind Scout Crusiers in BotS I.)

In terms of tactic this law presents an interesting dilemma. If you keep your ships together, you get more firepower and protection for each space-time bubble. However you are slower and may never catch up to the enemy. There is also a physical limit to how much mass a space-time bubble can contain before it collapses, and forcing such a collapse is a legitimate tactic, as demonstrated in BotS III. I asked Morioka for hard numbers in Otakon, but he wouldn't tell me, save that he keeps it on hand when he writes.

Now, ship for ship, the Abh vessels are lighter than their counterparts among United Mankind and their allies. So in planar space engagements, the Abhs always enjoy a certain initiative and speed advantage between combats of the same class of vessels.

[ QUOTE ]

d) Any information on relative maximum accelerations of the various ships?

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, none has been provided so far. Morioka never provided hard specs for his ships, and the anime/game staff didn't cook up their own numbers either. I do know that after a space-time fusion between two bubbles, the ships from each bubble have a relative velocity of zero in respect to the ships from the other bubble.

In other words, ships are at their most vulnerable at the moment right after space-time fusion occured. That is why they always put their engine to maximum accleration before fusion, so as to minimize the amount of time they're sitting ducks. That is also why multiple ships will merge with an enemy from different directions at the same time, so the defender can't just sit tight and aim everything down one direction.

Orca

11-29-2004, 08:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:The Gothelauth, which was destroyed in CotS, was a scout cruiser. So is the entire First Fleet, commanded by Spaurh. Also, all battlegroup and fleet flagships are Scout Cruisers, some of which are specifically designed for such duties.

[/ QUOTE ]

The impression I got from the anime is that the fleet flagships (exempting the command Kau class and its ilk) are unique/custom designed ships and that they're big boys - at least battlecruiser, if not battleship sized - though obviously with a heavy electromagnetic cannon and anti-proton cannon armament. Dusanyu's flagship in Banner for example I counted at *least* 36 dorsal torpedo hatches, plus presumably an equal number ventral...if true, that would give it a throw weight approaching that of a battleship. Nasty beast in a fight, heh.

The Kaus also seem to have ommitted the rear electromagnetic cannons (or is that the tapering projection to the rear? Hmm...cept we saw shuttles coming out of the hatches on there in Banner) as well as packing in a decent 20 missiles/mines.

On a slightly different note, from your use of the term mine, I assume that's the best English term for them; their depiction in the anime seemed to be more akin to command guided missiles with some loitering capability with the exception of the new UM ones. Do the novels contradict this? Or was the anime simply using them in a way that would be more exciting for the screen?

...I need a decent English translation of the novels to get released. :/

aimlesswanderer

11-29-2004, 08:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
...I need a decent English translations of the novels to get released. :/

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, that'd give us alot more to chew on. We can only hope a very very nice company does that for us, preferably soon! And if they do the COTS/BOTS novels, the Juuni Kokki novels and the Legend of Galactic Heroes novels would naturally follow on.... we can only hope.

11-29-2004, 11:54 PM

Since there was discussion about the political system in the Abh Empire, I figure it may be interesting to highlight the caste system within the Empire.

Planetary Subjects
These are human landers who live and die on planetside. While they are part of the Empire, they have nothing to do with it, and it with them.

Planetary Subjects are governed by their local planetary laws. They choose a Representive of the Subjects as the person who deals with the Empire. How they choose this person, for how long he/she holds the post, and what they call this person, the Empire does not care. In some planets, the Representatives call themselves Emperor/Empress and claims equality with the Abh Emperor/Empress. In other planets, the Representatives are considered prophets of the gods and speak with the heavens. All these are okay with the Abhs, so long as in all official documents and transactions, the Representives consent to being referred to as Representitive of the Subjects.

Subjects are confined to living on their planets. They are not allowed to travel in space unless they are migrating from one planet to another. This requires approval from both the origin and destination system government -- the proxy governor or the ruling noble house. In practice, migration agreement between system governments is negotiated very much like trade agreements. Some systems, particularly those with surplus population, actively pursue migration agreements with newly colonized or terraformed planets. Others don't want anyone to leave and refuse such proposals.

The Empire cannot interfere with the lives of planetary subjects and cannot tax them. Other than the prohibition on space-travels, the Empire leaves the subjects alone, and vice versa. There are approximately 900 billion (900,000,000,000) plantery subjects within the Empire.

Imperial Citizens
These are human landers who work for the Empire. Since they contribute to the Empire, citizens are allowed to travel freely in space. They are protected by Imperial Laws instead of local planetary laws. The Empire do not tax them, nor can a local planetary government.

While many citizens become so by enlisting in the Star Forces (Laburec), this is not the only way. As an example, the human retainers that run an Abh noble household are citizens as well. (That's one reason why Lafiel took offense at how Baron Febudash treated his retainers. She's raised to give citizens more respects than he exhibited.) The waitress who works at that space restaurant where Lafiel and Jinto attended dinner with Atosuryua is also a citizen, since she is serving the needs of the Empire.

Some people, like Samson, become citizens for the opportunity to work and travel in space. Others do so in order to escape their own planetary law. In a side story, you find out why Greida (one of three Febudash maids that sided with Lafiel. She's the one who took charge during the air-loss crisis and kept pounding the panel with her fist) ended up working for the Baron. Greida was born on a backwater planet that treated women poorly. She was considered an oddball and a trouble case because as a woman she happened to have a mind of her own. When she refused to entrust her son to a mechanical crib/automatic nanny and insisted on raising him herself, her husband took her to court and divorced her. (She dared to learn the Abh language on her own and even taught it to her son! How could she!) He also took custody of the child from her.

That was the last straw. Greida decided she had had enough of her home planet. She went to the local recruitment center and applied for the Star Forces. After an aptitude test, they told her she didn't have the bare education to qualify for the Star Forces, but there is this Febudash noble household who is hiring retainers, and she met their requirements. On the spot, she made up her mind, changed her name from Hanna Derise to Greida, and joined the Febudash household.

Citizens with outstanding contribution to the Empire are elevated to the status of Abh and become naturalized Abh. The surest way for this to happen is to enlist in the Star Forces and work your way up the ranks. (Enlisted Men 3rd Class -> 2nd Class -> 1st Class -> Chief Petty Officer -> apply to officer candidate school, get accepted and graduate from it -> Wing Flyer and Abh-hood) That's the path that Samson took even though he was not interested in becoming an Abh.

There are about one billion (1,000,000,000) imperial citizens.

Abhs
The Imperial Law has a clear and simple definition: members of the Imperail family, the nobility, and the samurai caste. They include both naturalized Abhs (Jinto, Samson) and biological Abhs (Lafiel).

Samurai Caste
The majority of Abhs belong to this category. As members of the samurai caste, they are not taxed by the Empire. Service to the Star Forces is both a right and privilege to them. While citizens can only join the Star Forces as enlisted men and spend years working up the ranks to Chief Petty Officer before they are even allowed to apply to officer candidate school, an Abh of the samurai caste has the right to apply to such schools automatically. (Whether they get accepted, and whether they graduate, that's a different matter altogether and is entirely dependent on personal abilities alone.)

Through service in the Star Foces, many Abhs of the samurai caste earn a peerage title. For example, Kufadis was a Peer of the 2nd Order in CotS. Those who provided exceptional service to the Empire may be elevated to the rank of nobility.

There are roughly 25 million (25,000,000) Abhs in the samurai caste.

The Nobility
There are two types of nobles. Court nobles who hold titles but no star systems, and landed nobles who have both. Court noble titles are not heredictary and are often meted out as a cosolation price to those who are not inheriting the family fortune. (If Atosuryua didn't become Baroness through the death of her brother, she would be a court noble and her descendents would be vanilla samurai caste Abh.) They are also given out as awards to samurai caste Abhs who have provided meritious service to the Empire.

Court nobles are not taxed by the Empire, and they draw a nice stipend from the Imperial treasury. They number about two hundred thousand (200,000).

Landed nobles are in many ways, both blessed and cursed. They are blessed because they are the elite among the Abhs, those who own a Star System and the potential of wealth and power that comes with it. They are cursed because as the elite, they alone must shoulder the burden of the Empire.

First off, service in the Star Forces is not a right but a duty to landed nobles. They are not allowed to inherit the family title unless they served a minimum of ten years in the Star Forces, and that's on top of the three years of officer candidate school beforehand. The only exceptions are when there is a succession crisis, like in Jinto's case. Then the landed noble is allowed to inherit the title immediately, but they still have to serve out the ten years.

Second, and this is the most important part, landed nobles are taxed by the Empire. In fact, they are the only one that pay taxes to the Empire. This is because the Empire and the Star Forces exist to protect and guarantee their monopoly in trading and mining rights over their star system. All interplanetary/interstellar trade, as well as the mining rights are properties of the landed noble. They control every aspect of it, and can groom, shape, or kill it as they see fit. That alone is worth a hefty amount of income. On top of that, the landed noble also gets exclusive rights to manufacture anti-matter fuels in the star system. Given the importance and prevalence of interstellar travel, the profits from fuel supply is tremendous.

In fact, a steady fuel supply and conveninent refueling location is so important to the well-being of the Empire, that landed nobles are required by law to establish a certain threshold of anti-matter fuel manufacture plants. The law requires them to operate and maintain such plants, and refuel any visiting Star Forces vessels without costs. This is part of the taxations levied on landed nobles, and ensures the Star Forces enjoy logistical support in every corner of the Empire.

Despite the harsh taxes, the proceeds from a monopoly in interstellar trade and mining is so huge that any competent landed noble is filthy rich by default. The best illustration of this is Jinto. Since his star system has been seized by the enemy, he is exempt from taxes, and draws a stipend from the Imperial treasury just like a court noble. This comes to about three times the salary an officer of his rank would earn. This means Jinto is a rich man among his fellow officers, but compared to even the poorest landed noble he is but a pauper. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

So long as a landed noble family pays their taxes and serve their duties to the Empire, it does not interfere in their internal matters. In fact, Imperial Law prohibits such interference. (Lafiel got into trouble for instigating a revolt within the Febudash Barony, but she was able to explain it away as per matter of course, and her only option, in fulfilling her mission as a member of the Star Forces.)

There are 1,600 landed noble families, for a total of about 20,000 people.

The Imperial Family
The Abriels. What more need I say. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

If the life of a landed noble seems burdened with responsibility, compared to that of an Abriel they are feather-weights. To start off, an Abriel doesn't get a career choice. As a matter of course they are required to compete for the throne -- governance is their family trade. From the very beginning an Abriel is groomed to be a contender of the Jade Throne. They are expected to apply to officer candidate school as soon as they are ready, and spend a significant portion of their early life serving the Star Forces. They also don't get to choose which branch to serve in. They must select the Pilot/Command branch.

In order to fully evaluate the command and leadership abilities of an Abriel, the Star Forces give them certain benefits. Once an Abriel completes officer candidate school (3 years long), serve out the half-year term as midshipman (Lafiel in CotS), and managed to survive a Council of Former Emperors (they took this out in the anime, Lafiel was ruthlessly questioned at the end of CotS over all her previous actions. It may not be a court martial per se, but she definitely had to answer for what she did), the Abriel is given the rank of Wing Flyer.

For the next few years, promotion is automatic. After one year of service as Wing Flyer, Abriels are promoted to Rearguard Flyer. Another year and half, and they are promoted to Vanguard Flyer and automatically enrolled in the prestigious Star Forces War College. (Normally Star Forces regulations stipulates that an applicant to the Star Forces War College must have a minimum of four and a half years of service, this rule is relaxed for an Abriel.) After six months of schooling, the Abriel is promoted to the rank of Deca-commander and given the command of either an assault ship or escort. (This is why Lafiel was so certain she'll captain an assault ship in three year's time at the end of CotS. It's an automatic process.)

Now that an Abriel is in a position of command whether he or she is ready for it, they must prove their worth from this point on. The Council of Former Emperors keep a harsh scrunity on them, and often holds them to a much higher standard. Abriels who fail in their duties are given no leniency, and their punishments are much more severe than other Abhs.

Eventually, one of the Abhs will earn the promotion to Imperial Admiral, the highest rank in the Star Forces and one reserved only for an Abriel. At this point said Abriel becomes the Crown Prince(ss) and the former Crown Prince(ss) ascend the Jade Throne as the next Emperor/Empress. The previous Emperor/Empress steps down and joins the Council of Former Emperors, continuing his/her duty to the Empire by becoming part of the evaluation team on future Abriels. Every Abriels within twenty years of age of the new Crown Prince(ss) must retire from the Star Forces and join the Reserve. Thus the slate is wiped clean for a new generation of Abriels and the cycle starts again.

Natsume_Maya

11-30-2004, 04:21 AM

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wanfu2k1 said:
Wee let's jump on Natsume until he conceeds /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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/images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

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Based on Ahjenta's accounts it looks like the crown prince was negotiating with Rock Lin, so when the deal was struck obviously the prince would appoint the person he's making the deal with the leader.

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I don't think those particular arguments are conclusive, but I won't try to argue further because I think what Ahjenta later wrote pretty much blows my argument out of the water (unfortunately /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) -
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Ahjenta said:
Jinto then explained what his father said in their video-mail, that the Abhs would named a non-Martine governor if the Lin's ever stepped down, and everything special they cherished about Martine would be lost.

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I thought this bit of info was interesting as well -
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Ahjenta said:
Under Teal, the Hyde System pledged allegiance to the UM and joined it. UM ordered Rock Lin's execution, but Teal tried to repeal it, stating that Martine law does not allow for capital punishment. The UM overruled Teal's objection, for UM law has a mandatory death sentence for any humans collaborating with the Abhs.

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Interesting because it shows that, whether the UM or the Abh were in power, the people of Martine were the losers. Under the Abh, Rock Lin was forced to accept a situation which he was (presumably) hated by the people he was trying to protect, and which ultimately lead to his demise. Under the UM, Teal's hands were tied in how to punish Rock. Ultimately, however, IMO the series depicts the Abh in a good light and its enemies (UM etc) as the bad guys.

11-30-2004, 10:05 AM

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Natsume Maya said:
Ultimately, however, IMO the series depicts the Abh in a good light and its enemies (UM etc) as the bad guys.

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Morioka said it himself that the Seikai novels are written from the Abh perspective. He said he may write a short story from the UM's point of view some day, but for now he'll just keep writing about the Abhs.

11-30-2004, 12:49 PM

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Orca said:
The impression I got from the anime is that the fleet flagships (exempting the command Kau class and its ilk) are unique/custom designed ships and that they're big boys - at least battlecruiser, if not battleship sized - though obviously with a heavy electromagnetic cannon and anti-proton cannon armament. Dusanyu's flagship in Banner for example I counted at *least* 36 dorsal torpedo hatches, plus presumably an equal number ventral...if true, that would give it a throw weight approaching that of a battleship. Nasty beast in a fight, heh.

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Hmmm, based on the info in the DVD booklet and the strategy guide for the PC game, the exact customization differs from flagship to flagship and relfects both a practical need and the personal preference of the admirals.

Take Dusanyu's flagship, the Sankau, as an example. It has a much expanded bridge to accomodate all the staff officers that comes with the Imperial Admiral and his HQ. It also has to make space for that oversized planar space display (iac fadr) so the admiral and his staff can plan strategic fleet movements. Dusanyu also added a zero-G garden (sodmronh) -- the one he likes to float and think in -- to the ship himself, which is the only indulgence/abuse of power he allowed himself as the highest ranking officer in the Imperial Star Forces.

All these expansions take up space, and the Sankau has to give up its mine complement. In return, they added a large number of laser-cannon turrets to it, for extra self-defense. Those are what the hatches covered.

On the other hand, you have Spaurh's flagship, the Rashikau. It has three movable anti-proton cannons mounted on the bow, plus other additional armaments and a larger power plant. All told, the Rashikau is more heavily armed than the standard Kau-class scout crusier. This reflects Spaurh's preferene of leading from the front of a battle.

[ QUOTE ]

The Kaus also seem to have ommitted the rear electromagnetic cannons (or is that the tapering projection to the rear? Hmm...cept we saw shuttles coming out of the hatches on there in Banner) as well as packing in a decent 20 missiles/mines.

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The standard Kau-class has 8 electromagnetic cannons, 6 fixed forward, 2 fixed rearwards.

Well, since you've shown interests in the armaments, let me comb through the DVD booklets and the PC game strategy guide and see what they have to say. (Morioka doesn't write laundry list numbers in his novels, which is a good thing, but also means there are no hard numbers to go by in such matters.)

Garum-class assault ship
anti-proton cannon x 1 (fixed forward)
laser cannon x 4 (movable)

This is the "other" assault ship you see in BotS I. Their most memorable scene is the one you keep seeing -- it gets sliced in half by a beam and explodes. That's the Garum-class in the anime.

Roil-class assault ship
anti-proton cannon x 1 (fixed forward)
laser cannon x 2 (movable)

crew: 5 officers and 15 enlisted men

The Basroil, enough said. /images/graemlins/happy.gif The Roil-class has less self-defense capability, but is faster and more manueverable than the Garum-class. Given how flimsy all assault ships are, this is probably a more survivable design.

The Futune
electromagnetic cannon x 6 (4 fixed forward, 2 fixed rearward)
anti-proton cannon x ?
laser cannon x ?
mine x 12

According to the DVD booklet, the Futune is one generation older than the Gothelauth. This is Spaurh's flagship back in CotS. It's part of her First Fleet in BotS I. You can actually hear Spaurh mention Futune by name as she issued command just before battle.

The Kelldijue
electromagnetic cannon x 12 (4 fixed forward, 8 fixed rearward)
anti-proton cannon x ?
laser cannon x ?
mine x 20

Trife's flagship in CotS. Let me just say up front that Morioka never described this ship any more than its being a flagship. And because of that, it has a two-step bridge design where the upper bridge house the fleet HQ.

Given the ridiculous number and layout of the electromagnetic cannons, I'd say the anime staff was smoking something stale when they came up with the specs.

Lauth-class scout crusier
electromagnetic cannon x 6 (4 fixed forward, 2 fixed rearward)
anti-proton cannon x 1 (movable)
laser cannon x 40 (movable)
mine x 10

length: 12.82 Wesdash (1 Wesdash = 100m)
crew: 220 officers and enlisted men

The novel says the Gothelauth (and other scout crusiers) has mutliple anti-proton cannons mounted on turrets. In the anime and game, all the turrets are laser cannons.

From what I've seen so far, Gothelauth was the only ship in this class. Its premature demise during the shakedown crusie seemed to spell the end to the design. Certainly I've never seen another Lauth-class in the anime, and the novels don't mention other ships from this class either.

Kau-class scout cruiser
electromagnetic cannon x 8 (6 fixed forward, 2 fixed rearward)
anti-proton cannon x 1 (movable)
laser cannon x 50 (movable)
mine x 20

This is currently the latest type of scout cruiser deployed by the Star Forces. It has more firepower and protection than the Lauth-class, but slightly slower and less manueverable.

Bilsch-class scout crusier
electromagnetic cannon x 6 (4 fixed forward, 2 fixed rearward)
anti-proton cannon x 2 (movable)
triple laser cannon x 10 (co-axial rotating turret)
mine x 12

Trife's flagship in BotS II. I don't think it's a newer design than the Kau-class despite it showing up later in the anime. After all, Trife was essentially acting as fleet reserve so I don't think he has the latest ships.

Hejue-class escort
laser cannon x 16 (movable)

The ships that charged in and relieved Lafiel and other assault ships from dueling with mines during the Battle of Aptic Gate.

Kutil-class transport
laser cannon x 4 (movable)

The big, bulky ships that got slaughtered when things were going really bad for Bibothec's Aptic Defense Fleet.

Zolf-class battleship
laser cannon x 12 (movable)
mine x 200

United Mankind assault ship
anti-proton cannon x 1 (fixed forward)
laser cannon x 7 (6 fixed forward, 1 movable)
anti-matter missile x 4

A lot of firepower on paper, but surprisingly ineffective in battle. The larger armament means this is slower and less manueverable than an Abh assault ship. For ships of this class, speed is life.

United Mankind escort
laser cannon x 9 (6 fixed foward, 3 movable)

I don't think they ever showed up in the anime. Morioka didn't spend any passages on them either, so whatever the PC game designers say goes, I guess.

United Mankind scout crusier
electromagnetic cannon x 6 (4 fixed forward, 2 fixed rearward)
laser cannon x 24 (co-axial mounted)
mine x ?

This is the scout cruiser Lafiel and company chased after during their first battle. It's 1.5 times the size of an Abh scout crusier so it's slower and less manueverable.

In the anime and the PC game, there's a newer class of scout crusier that made its first appearance during the Battle of Aptic Gate. However, the specs in the anime completely contradicts those in the game, and since Morioka never said the United Mankind brought in a new class of scout crusier, I'm not going to list the specs here.

United Mankind battleship
laser cannon x 8 (co-axial mounted)
mine x ?

These were slaughtered en mass during rout in the Battle of Aptic Gate.

United Mankind transport
laser cannon x 4 (co-axial mounted)

The "unarmed" transports that are, for all intent and purposes, harmless. These are what Lafiel and company passed by on their way out of Lobness in BotS II.

[ QUOTE ]

On a slightly different note, from your use of the term mine, I assume that's the best English term for them; their depiction in the anime seemed to be more akin to command guided missiles with some loitering capability with the exception of the new UM ones. Do the novels contradict this? Or was the anime simply using them in a way that would be more exciting for the screen?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, they are actually called ‹@“®Žž‹ó”š—‹ (satyth gor hoca) in the novels. Literally, they mean Mobile Space-Time Explosive Mines (Kidou Jikuu Bakurai). Usually, they are shortened to just ‹@—‹ (Kirai) or Mobile Mines in conversations and narrations.

The Japanese word for torpeedo is ‹›—‹ (gyorai). The word for landmine is ’n—‹ (jirai), and the word for naval mine is ?…—‹ (suirai). So I guess you could call them Mobile Space-Time Explosive Torpeedo if you want to. I chose to call them mines because of the word "mobile." Both torpeedoes and missiles are, by defination, mobile. Adding the word "mobile" to them sounds a little silly. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

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...I need a decent English translation of the novels to get released. :/

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Make your view known to the US companies. While they are aware there is growing demand for novel translations, they aren't exactly sure if it's worth the bother. On top of that, the last time someone tried it (the Gundam novels) it was a bomb so people are having cold feet.

Besides, Japan just won the 2007 bid for the World Science Fiction Convention. It's a big thing for the Sci-Fi community there (heck, the producer of LoGH is on the bidding committee), and they have vested interests in seeing Japanese Sci-Fi literature being exposed to the English speaking world. I think between now and 2007 is a good time to press for novel translations.

wanfu2k1

11-30-2004, 01:01 PM

Interesting post on the political system of the Abh Ahjenta. I have a few questions though. You list the caste system of the Abh being only the samurai, nobility and imperial family. The samurai caste looks to be the military only. So what caste do the Abhs that fail star forces or don't want to be in star forces fall in? There seems to be alot of traders in the CotS world are they part of the samurai caste?

So does every habitable planet have to have a land noble? I'm assuming that the land noble can declare himself ruler of the planet. So if the grounder planet's population does not want interstellar trade the land noble can't do anything about it right?

Orca

11-30-2004, 02:01 PM

The crew size for the Lauth-class seems, well, ridiculously understaffed for a ship almost 1.3 kilometers in length. I guess the Abh make extensive use of redundancy, automation, remotes, and independant repair robots...or the anime writers were smoking something pretty strong. The casualties reported near the end of the Battle of Gosroth were pretty small for a ship that size, but would make sense given the crew size. Assuming those are decent numbers and not ones that the anime staff pulled out of their (censored), that would also explain why the Abh casualty count at the end of the Aptic Gate battle was so low. Yes, low - 211,055 dead on 8,779 vessels leaves us with an average of slightly over 24 people killed per ship. Granted, the vast majority were escort and assault ships, minus those that escape in escape pods and the like, but still...

The reason I'm asking all these questions is something I've been working on based only on the anime because that's all I have available: http://basroil.falldowngoboom.org/. Unfortunately the Crest brick I bought didn't have any of the inserts...in any case, the translation staff I don't really trust, given the "It splits in two?!" bit. /images/graemlins/happy.gif It's rather unfinished, but the Roil-class page should give an idea of what I'm attempting...

Orca

11-30-2004, 02:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Interesting post on the political system of the Abh Ahjenta. I have a few questions though. You list the caste system of the Abh being only the samurai, nobility and imperial family. The samurai caste looks to be the military only. So what caste do the Abhs that fail star forces or don't want to be in star forces fall in? There seems to be alot of traders in the CotS world are they part of the samurai caste?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would assume so. Aren't all interstellar vessels either military or owned by and leased from the Emperor/Empress or something along those lines?

[ QUOTE ]
So does every habitable planet have to have a land noble? I'm assuming that the land noble can declare himself ruler of the planet. So if the grounder planet's population does not want interstellar trade the land noble can't do anything about it right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not just habitable planets - a Sord reasonably close to certain resources would be useful as a fuel depot if nothing else. Even a gas giant can be scooped for reactants, or if necessary you could bring some comets in from the Oort cloud. All you need is a sun to start pumping out antimatter - you have that, right? Otherwise you wouldn't have any of those stellar bodies. Couple that with a metallic astroid or two and you have a mining/repair/production depot that could be strategically important - and trade-wise could be important as well (closer to your market, less travel time, lower costs!). Unless a Sord is off in the middle of interstellar space, it seems there'd be some kind of human/Abh presence there.

...or so I would assume. Seems like a logical extrapolation, but I could be wrong due to lack of hard information. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

11-30-2004, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
You list the caste system of the Abh being only the samurai, nobility and imperial family. The samurai caste looks to be the military only. So what caste do the Abhs that fail star forces or don't want to be in star forces fall in? There seems to be alot of traders in the CotS world are they part of the samurai caste?

[/ QUOTE ]

All Abhs, biological or naturalized, that are not part of the imperial family (?c‘°/kouzoku) or the nobility (‹M‘°/kizoku) belong to the samurai caste (Žm‘°/shizoku). Actually the word can also mean "descendents of samurai" and is used after the Meiji Restoration to indicate a kind of social elite -- old samurai families who had to give up their traditional power back to the central government were honored this way, but the honor was also bestowed on a new group of upper middle class who contributed to the modernization of the country. (And yes, the old guards hated the new-riches.) But I am seriously digressing here.

In case of the Abhs, the reason they chose the word samurai caste is doublefold. One, the people of the Mother City who created them were a bunch of fundamental conservative Japanese, who founded that space colony centuries ago because they couldn't stand how their country was losing its culture and identity due to "foreign pollutions." The Abhs were meant to find a new colony world for the Mother City and ensure the old culture would survive. Well, the Abhs took on that mission after they destroyed the Mother City so they paid a lot of homage to traditions in their culture and language.

Two, every Abh of the samurai caste has the right and privilege to apply to officer candidate school. By definition they are a warrior caste because it is their right to fight. Remeber, in a caste system like ancient Greek and the Roman Republic, the right to fight was a privilege only granted to citizens who held properties. After all, war directly affects the destiny of one's country, so who else could you entrust this sacred task to, other than those honorable people who had a direct stake in the outcome?

Now, the Abhs certainly don't think only the elite can fight in wars. Otherwise, they wouldn't let citizens to enlist in their navies. But they certainly do think those who lead in combats are somewhat of an elite. That's why they use word samurai caste. These Abhs are either born with the right to lead, or have earned it through service to the Empire.

[ QUOTE ]

So does every habitable planet have to have a land noble?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, a habitable planet either has a proxy governor, like Lafiel and Jinto in BotS II, in which case it belongs to the Emperor/Empress. Or, it has a ruling noble house, in which case it belongs to that particular family.

This is how the landed nobles (?”Œò/shokou) are ranked.

Baron
Landed nobles who own a star system with no possibility of developing a habitable planet. The Febudash Barony is one such example, with just two gas giants in the system. Unlike other landed nobles, barons are stuck in this rank and has no chance of climbing up the court ranking. They are, in the grand scheme of things, quite unimportant.

Vicount
Landed nobles who own a star system whose planets are uninhabited, but can be made habitable through terraforming. In awarding a viscounty, the Empire is hoping that the noble house will invest in the system, terraform and colonize the planet, bringing more trade opportunity to the Empire and thus enriching it. You can say the Empire gives these nobles a "hope for the future." Lafiel is a Viscountess.

After a Viscount has terraformed the planet and the first colonists have moved in, he is automatically promoted to Count.

Count
Landed nobles who own a star system with at least one inhabited planet, and the total population within the star system does not exceed 100 million (100,000,000).

This is where a noble family's fortune really takes off. Their monopoly in trade and the economy that comes with it translate directly to income for any competent noble. Jinto is a Count.

Marquis
Landed nobles who own a star system whose population exceeds 100 million (100,000,000). The Abh noble who owns Sufugnoff is a Marquis.

Duke
Still waiting for Morioka to give us a definition.

Grand Duke
There are only 28 of them. These titles were awarded to the 28 non-Abriel root families at the founding of the Empire. A root family is one who is directly descended from the 29 original Abhs sent out by the Mother City in their explorer ship.

(30 bio-engineered "ship parts" were made. Each one specialized in a particular field of operation. 1 was lost early on during trainig. The line of "ship parts" that specialized in command and control, and given the duty of ship's captain eventually became the Abriel. The "ship part" that specialized in engineering, who was considered second-in-command became Spaurh. And yes, the two were always in disagreement.

The Empire was founded when the Bibothec figured out how to achieve FTL travel via planar space. At that moment, the Abriels claimed that, since they have always been in command and control and was the de facto captain of the ship from the very beginning, they should continue in that role as Emperor. As Captain of all Abhs, they claim ownership of every planar-space capable ships. The Abriels quickly pointed out to the rest of the Abhs that the whole universe is up for grabs at this point, and the Abh stands to gain more by playing along instead of fighting each other over who should be in charge. The ever pragmatic Abhs recognized this point, and let the Abriels had had their way, though some did so grudgingly. In return, the first Abriel Emperor awarded the title of Grand Duke to the 28 other crew families, who up till this point were still functioning, in various respects, in the duty perscribed to them by the Mother City in their "explorer ship," even though the ship had stopped moving for a while and had been hugely expanded and more resembled a space city.

This of course, leads to the famous motto of the Sparuh: "We are dissatisfied with a Grand Duchy, but something as boorish as being the Emperor is more fitting for the Abriels. Our name is Spaurh!")

Most of the grand duchies are incredibly wealthy. The Bibothec one isn't very much so thanks to their magnificient insanity. Our favorite Admiral Spaurh is the Grand Duchess of Ledpanyu. Her domain is one of the wealthiest if not the welthiest in the Empire, with three heavily populated planets.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm assuming that the land noble can declare himself ruler of the planet. So if the grounder planet's population does not want interstellar trade the land noble can't do anything about it right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember, the Empire cannot interfere with the life of planetary subjects. A landed noble, while being considered the ruler of the star system, has limited influence on what's going on plaentside.

As for interstellar trade, the exact control differs between exports and imports. For exports, it really depends on the noble's consent. If the ruler of Martine wants to export its indigeneous animals to the rest of the galaxy, or strip mine the planet for its resources, there isn't much the locals can do about it. That's why Rock Lin did what he did. On the other hand, if Admiral Spaurh decides she'll cease exporting goods from her grand duchy, again there's little the locals can do save sending their Representative of the Subjects to plead with Spaurh.

Now, for imports it's more like a consensus. The landed nobles can sign import agreements all they want but if the locals aren't buying, no profits are made. In this case the locals have much more control on what to buy and what not to. Of course, the noble has some measure of control too, he can always say I'm not importing tea anymore, you better start to like coffee. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Falcon_73

11-30-2004, 09:10 PM

Wow, I take a little time off and look at all this! Thank you for all your insight, Ahjenta. I've been able to read a decent chunk of what you have written, but will need extra time to digest the rest. That and I haven't seen Banner I or II yet.

I have just a few questions for the moment.

Unless I'm totally dense:

Sparuh = Spoor
Gothelauth = Gosroth

Most of the other names appear to be the same. I wonder why the sub-titles (presumably) changed them?

Does the "headgear" (sorry I don't know the proper name for it) signify rank or any other status? I have seen about 6 different types I think so far.

Hopefully, I'll have time to watch the next set soon. I don't really want it to end though, and that's with 2/3 left. Maybe this will make more sense after a while.

I hope someone in a position of influence can encourage those with the ability to translate the books sometime in the next few years. I presume, the current novels are far beyond the neophyte æ—¥æœ¬èªž student such as myself.

Though, I'm sorry to say that I haven't been around long enough to remember you, thanks for coming back Ahjenta /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Falcon_73

11-30-2004, 09:42 PM

Let's see what I can come up with re the questions now...

[ QUOTE ]
fractured78 said:
1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it was only about 6 weeks ago now that I first saw CotS. I read a few things before watching it about how it was so much different than the "norm." It took me a few episodes to get into it. It didn't sweep me off my feet or anything until, well, you know when (ep. 5). After that, I didn't have any more trouble looking forward to the next installment.

[ QUOTE ]

2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes on surrendering, No on staying in power (so to speak). Surrendering was the only real option, but as when a captain of a ship surrenders the sword, stepping down is the right thing to do.

[ QUOTE ]

3. As it pertains to the United Mankind and the Abh is such a thing as a monarchy worse or better than a democracy? Why?

[/ QUOTE ]
I haven't seen much of the United Mankind's system of government to comment. In general terms, I can see how a Monarchy could be better. At least in the case of the Abh, they aren't awarded the throne by birth-right alone. They have to prove themselves first.

[ QUOTE ]

4. What do you think about the Abh attitude toward life and responsibility? Is it more evolved? Arrogant?

[/ QUOTE ]
This turned me off a bit on the Abh initially as they seemed to value their genes more than necessary. Granted, they didn't choose to be this way at first (gene manipulated), but they have continued it.

[ QUOTE ]

5. What do you think about Lafiel?

[/ QUOTE ]
It perhaps took me the longest to warm up to Lafiel. By the end of CotS, I think I had finally accepted her. She's not my favorite character of the show (at least not yet), but she's finding a place in my heart.

[ QUOTE ]

6. Is genetic engineering good or bad in the case of the Abh versus normal people?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, it has given them some advantages, but genes alone aren't everything. However, to quote Gattaca "There is no gene for the human spirit."

[ QUOTE ]

8. Who your favorite characters are.

[/ QUOTE ]
Captain Lexshue - The character that probably saved the show for me. Though her time on the screen was somewhat limited, it was most memorable. I much admire her determination, skill and ability to bring out the best in others.

Rear Admiral Spoor - Another character whose time on the screen in CotS was too brief, but an instant sensation. The only other character I can compare her too is Milia of Macross (before she turned "good"). Spoor may not have the raven hair, but I'm sure I can see sparks flying from her fingertips. /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

Beagle-san

12-01-2004, 01:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
furrycute said:
[ QUOTE ]
As a side note, it's interesting to see that by the end, Jinto truly has embraced being Abh - there's none of the indecision present in Banner.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with both points. There is nothing glorious about being an abh. There is nothing glorious about being an ab. Being an abh is being a drone in a mindless colony bent on galactic domination, with the royal family the colony's mastermind. A drone's duty is to carry out its queen's orders with blind faith. And to die for the queen's order is its ultimate honor.

Jinto does not embrace being an abh. He embraces his love with Lafiel. Lafiel, an individual abh who is unique precisely because she is a member of the royalty, her privileges make her unique, that's why Jinto embraces her.

As to indecision, Jinto will always be indecisive. It is his nature. That is precisely why Lafiel is attracted to him. Because Jinto is Lafiel's inferior, and because Jinto is not an abh. Lafiel's ego will never allow herself to be inferior of anyone, in any relationship. And it is precisely because Jinto is not an abh, but at the same he is Lafiel's inferior, that makes him attractive to Lafiel.

The abh empire, in the Star of the crest series' creator's mind is a mirro image of the Japanese empire. Both fortresses of solitude, with no continental landmass (planets) to call their own. Both are human, yet out of place with the rest of the humanity (few Japanese will ever admit that they are the equals of their fellow Asians). Japan's dream of imperial domination was crushed by the U.S. during WWII. But the Japanese can always dream of imperial glory in their mangas and anime, projecting their dream of galactic domination to even the stars.

Before anyone brings up the point of integration of other human societies into the abh empire. Let me point out that the Japanese imperial army did the same thing back during WWII. A large number of its recruits came from the rest of Asia. Philipinos, Koreans, and even Chinese. As to integration into Abh society. Yes, foreigners can become Japanese citizens. But they will always be second class Japanese citizens. That Baron from the Crest of the stars even resorted to changing his own DNA to make himself more abh-like, still he failed. That just goes to show you how ego-centric the abh, or the Japanese, really are.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to disagree. It is hard for any author to fully seperate him or herself from the culture in which he/she was raised, but the Abh seem to have little in common with Imperial Japan of the 1930s and 1940s.

If you're looking for a nation in the Sekai trilogy which most resembles Imperial Japan, there's an easy choice: The United Mankind. This nation is racist, seems to have a strict military control structure, have secret police, and is aggressive.

The Abh are unconcerned with how a planet is governed, generally letting the people of that planet decide things for themselves (although there are some exceptions, given what this thread has noted about Martine).

The United Mankind, however, seems to exercise a great deal of local control, especially when contrasted against the Abh.

All indications are that once a lander is declared to be Abh, either via service, or instant nobility, then that person is seen by all Abh as Abh. Imperial Japanese never accorded that privilege to fellow "members" of the Eastern Co-Prosperity Sphere.

The Baron's insecurities appear to be just that, individual psychological flaws based upon paranoid feelings of inferiority, fears which seem to have no basis in fact.

If you're looking for a baseline Japanese person, then you need look no further than Jinto.

Bear in mind that this is an author who is Japanese, whose audience is Japanese...and he went to extra lengths to ensure that the Abh seem alien to a Japanese audience.

Beagle-san

12-01-2004, 02:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
Thanks for those 2 posts Beagle-san *prints as inserts for DVD volumes* I'll be re-watching the whole saga with your comments in mind /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Would you say the Gosforth was more "Horatio" than "Custer"?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the kind words, and my apologies for the delay in responding.

Hmmm. Well Horatio at the gate survived, IIRC, while Custer didn't. Custer, however, was a buffoon who dies because he pushed on ahead of schedule; instead of being one part of a pincer movement attacking the Sioux and Cheyenne gathered at the Little Big Horn. He did so because he was a glory hound, shunning a half dozen gatling guns in favor of having additional Crow Scouts; he didn't want the gatling guns to weigh down, and slow down his unit. When he got their first, he then compounded his stupidity by splitting his force into 3 sections, with him leading more than 200 men to their deaths. The "Last Stand" didn't destroy the 7th Cavalry; it refers to that portion of the 7th Cav which Custer personally commanded in the battle, a section which was top-heavy with rank. Other 7th Cavalry members were killed in the battle, notably members under the command of Major Reno. IIRC, Captain Benteen's command wandered about aimlessly, unengaged, until it ended up combining with Reno's survivors, with this combined unit hodling out unitl the Sioux and Cheyenne decamped, and the other column of US troops arrived.

Heh, sorry for the digression, which was not directed at any one person, but should be thought of as one of those meandering FYI portions of a post.

So, Lexshue should never be compared to Custer. Horation is a better fit.

Perhaps (or possibly not) an even better comparison might be that Gosroth was in much the same boat as the Spartans at Thermopolyae. (sic?)

It's hard to come up with an apt analogy. Capt. Lexshue didn't want this battle; it was forced upon her. Further, and I like this, she went into battle on board a vessle which was not prepared for full war-time conditions.

As anyone who watched the battle should realize, if Gosroth had not expended some of her mines in practice, Lexshue would have easily defeated the force which attacked her 

Lexshue ahd several duties:

1) Defend the Abh's right of navigation.

2) Alert Abh command of the danger.

3) Protect her noble charges.

The result is, as I've said before, one of the best space combat sequences ever filmed.

Still racking my brain trying to come up with an analogy from either fiction or history. One is the charge of the US destroyers at the Battle of Leyte Gulf.

Leyte Gulf is one of the more complex naval battles in history. Multiple Japanese naval units were attempting to break through to the Landing Fleet which supplied and maintained the invasion. All of these forces were defeated, or believed to have been defeated, when a group of Japanese aircraft carriers appeared to the north.

By that stage of the war, the aircraft carrier had become the supreme weapon of naval warfare, and Admiral Halsey, who was charged with screening the northern area, took off with his force, including all of the American Iowa class battleships, the most modern American battleships, after what he perceived to be the biggest threat he faced.

Problem was:

1) One of the Japanese forces, the one centered around the super-battleship Yamato had doubled back; and

2) Halsey failed to notify CINCPAC that he was leaving a certain strait undefended - the very strait through which the Yamato and Co. would soon pass through unmolested.

The result was that the world's largest battleship and the other powerful units of this Japanese fleet, came upon the lightly guarded invasion fleet, a fleet which was solely defended by destroyers and escort carriers (and the escort carriers weren't carrying armor pierceing bombs; these aircraft were tasked with ground support missions).

So, what happened was that the US destroyers launched a sudden charge at the Japanese. Totally outgunned, and taking horrrible losses, they managed to sow enough confusion among the Japanese command that the Japanese withdrew without causing much damage to the invasion fleet.

Even this analogy falls short, as there are plenty of differences in circumstances. The destroyers bought time for the invasion fleet, doing so with little hope of survival, and many of the destroyers were sunk. Gosroth however, was a more powerful ship individually than any of her opponents.

Meh. Can't think of any other good analogies. Horatio at the gate might actually be the best analogy after all.

Kellory

12-01-2004, 03:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Beagle-san said:
Still racking my brain trying to come up with an analogy from either fiction or history. One is the charge of the US destroyers at the Battle of Leyte Gulf.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its funny, but I was thinking of Taffy Three when I saw this thread last week. There are a lot of points of congruety, but more in terms of the entire campaign than specifically the battle with the Gosroth.

The entire Sufugnoff campaign by the UM was a feint designed to draw off the Abh so that they could attack the capital. In the same way the 2 other fleets the Japanese sent to Leyte Gulf had the sole purpose of drawing Halsey away so they could attack the beach head defended by Taffy Three. Indeed Admiral Kurita, in retreating before Taffy Three's attacks, commited what is arguably one of the greatest tactical blunders of naval warfare. His tactical reasoning was sound in the abstract if you accept that Japan was not losing, but strategically it proved to be the final nail for Japan. Ironically Halsey commited the exact opposite mistake in the same battle when he went to engage the Japanese fleet. He made a sound strategic decision by attacking the enemy fleet, but it was a poor tactical decision when you consider his orders were to protect the beaches.

Nevertheless, Leyte Gulf has the sole problem that Taffy Three's resolute defense was rewarded and they won that battle. Whereas the Gosroth still lost.

I do think the Charge of the Light Brigade and the Battle of the Alamo are better analogies. The Light Brigade had no business going into the teeth of a fortified position with interlocking machine gun fields of fire with horse calvary in World War I. But their orders got mixed up and instead of charging the side of the position, they ended up going directly in. But if it was a mistake, history still records and respects the courage it took in what was probably the last true calvary charge with mounted horse troops.

The Alamo is better though. Here we have defenders attempting to defend against a superior force. They had some good leaders and fighters. In any event, they were well led, but in a basically untenable situation. Santa Anna had enough men to completely surround the mission and it was never designed as a real fortification. Their goal was to hold long enough for American reinforcements to arrive. And to that end they delayed and held Santa Anna as long as they could before, in the end, they were overwhelmed.

Kellory

12-01-2004, 03:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
Yes, low - 211,055 dead on 8,779 vessels leaves us with an average of slightly over 24 people killed per ship. Granted, the vast majority were escort and assault ships, minus those that escape in escape pods and the like, but still...

[/ QUOTE ]

While I've gotten used to anime and RPG games being very casual in terms of realism, I admit I have a higher standards when it comes to books. The numbers given in at least the anime as frankly insane. I doubt if you count all the military naval vessels in the world you'll come up with even 4,000 much less 8,000. And yes in space you would assume that there would be more ships due to a greater volume being defended. But history has shown that as technology progresses, you actually end up lowering the number of ships/planes/troops needed to defend a given area. Especially as their costs rise, the material cost of just producing those number of vessels would be staggering. Even to the Abh.

I just chaulk it up to the same phenomenon that we see when we watch Macross and see a single mecha firing off more than its own body weight in missiles in a single fight.

The real question here is just how much attention to detail Morioka has put into the Crest universe. And by attention to detail, I mean how much research has gone into continuity and extrapolation of current science. From what I've seen in the Crest documentaries, it sounds like he put a fair bit of attention in, but was more concerned about telling a story than actually making a world that made absolute sense.

Contrast that to David Webber's Honor Harrington series which, while not exactly grounded in modern science, has a remarkable amount of detail and is consistant to it. To the point you can argue things that happen and have grounds to do so. When talking about finer points of Crest I often wonder if the answer just isnt, "because I thought it looked good".

12-01-2004, 04:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
The crew size for the Lauth-class seems, well, ridiculously understaffed for a ship almost 1.3 kilometers in length. I guess the Abh make extensive use of redundancy, automation, remotes, and independant repair robots...or the anime writers were smoking something pretty strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Morioka spoke of this at Otakon. When the anime staff presented him with Gothelauth's initial design, it was too small and compact, especially those electromagnetic cannons. He told the staff the ship needed to be huge, and should be designed around accomodating the electromagnetic cannons (kinda like the A-10 Warthog was designed around its 30mm chain-cannon). The anime staff said why can't the cannons be miniaturized, and Morioka replied it is huge by necessity, because it uses electromagnetism to propel its warhead to 0.01c (c = speed of light in vacuum) and you can't do that over short distanes.

I don't remember exactly how the rest of the conversation went, but essentially Morioka convinced the anime staff that the Abhs have the technology to run a large ship with a small crew. So your concern was brought up during production and was addressed.

[ QUOTE ]

Assuming those are decent numbers and not ones that the anime staff pulled out of their (censored), that would also explain why the Abh casualty count at the end of the Aptic Gate battle was so low. Yes, low - 211,055 dead on 8,779 vessels leaves us with an average of slightly over 24 people killed per ship. Granted, the vast majority were escort and assault ships, minus those that escape in escape pods and the like, but still...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Morioka never explictly stated how many ships were lost and how many people died in the Battle of Aptic Gate. The number you see was cooked up by the anime staff, and it's entirly bogus. Here is why.

First, let us visit the Battle of Sufugnoff, the one and only battle Morioka gave us a laundry list of numbers.

On the Abh side, we have:

4 Assault Battlegroups (assault ships)
1 Strike Battlegroup (battleships)
1 Recon Battlegroup (scout cruisers)
1 Resupply Battlegroup (replenishment vessels and transports)

plus a handful of independent squadrons for a total of about 2100 ships.

On the United Mankind side, it's stated they have 3 battlegroups for approximately 900 vessels.

7 battlegroups for 2100 ships, and 3 battlegroups for 900 ships. From this we can stipulate that an average battlegroup is about 300 ships.

Now, the Star Forces won the battle with a crushing victory. Of the 2100 ships in Trife's fleet, the losses were:

destroyed
24 escorts
17 assult ships
1 scout cruiser

heavily damaged (mission-killed)
51 escorts
47 assault ships
5 scout cruisers

damaged (field repairable)
95 escorts
117 assault ships
19 scout cruisers
7 battleships

Out of 2100 ships, 383 were damaged or destroyed, for a casualty rate of 18.2%. However, Morioka specifically mentioned that Trife only struck out 145 ships from his fleet roster, which was the total number of ships destroyed and heavily damaged (mission-killed). So the actual casualty rate is really 6.9%.

On the United Mankind side, of the 900 ships they had, only 27 remained operational by the end of the battle. So the casualty rate was 97%. Since all 27 vessels surrendered, the actual casualty rate was 100%.

6.9% vs 100%, that's why it's called a crushing victory.

Now, let's look at the Battle of Aptic Gate. For Operation Mirage Flame, the Star Forces assembled 150 battlegroups. This is supported by another 70 battlegroups in the rear to hold captured territories. On the United Mankind side, they were estimated to have about 170 battlegroups, plus or minus 15.

The garrisons were not involved in the battle, so the final balance of forces is 150 vs 185, for a worst case scenario. However, the United Mankind enjoys a numerical superiority in scout cruisers. (Star Forces recon battlegroups, comprised entirely of scout crusiers, is considered to have the combat power equivalent to 5 assault battlegroups.)

Now, based on the numbers provided in the Battle of Sufugnoff, we stipulated that on average, a battlegroup has about 300 ships. So Aptic Gate pits 45,000 Star Forces vessels against 55,500 Three Nations Alliance vessels.

When Neres and Nefee showed up to take command of the Aptic Defense Fleet, Neres commented that they were given 12 battlegroups, or 3,600 vessels. Just before the Alliance Fleet began to disengage in order to face Dusanyu's forces coming up on its rear, Neres said they suffered over 45% losses. Let's say overall, the Aptic Defense Fleet took 50% losses before their part of the fighting was over. That's 1,800 ships.

Now, the anime stated total Star Forces losses for the battle was 8779 ships. That means Dosanyu's main force lost 6979 ships, almost four times the losses of Aptic Defense Fleet. This makes no sense at all. The Aptic Fleet was outnumbered 15 to 1, was pummpled by mines for an extended period of time, and was nearly overran by the enemy. All this equates to 1,800 ships lost.

Dusanyu on the other hand, has the advantage of coming up on the rear of the enemy. The Alliance Fleet had to disengage, turn around, and hastily reform and realign themselves to fight a new enemy from a different direction. On top of that, they had spent the bulk of their mines trying to suppress Aptic's defenders, and were now at a disadvantage in long-range warfare. True, they still enjoy a substantial numerical advantage, since Dosanyu's forces were engaging piece meal, with his Third and Spaurh's First Fleet making contact first, and the Second and Fourth Fleet coming in much later in the battle. Still, the advantage was far less than the 15:1 they enjoyed when they tried to overwhelm Aptic Defense Fleet. If 15:1 odds got you 1,800 kills, how come a less favorable odds ended up with four times the kill score? Dosanyu is not an incompetent commander, in fact he is pretty good at it, so how come he lost more ships than the "magnificent insanity" Bibothec twins?

The anime also said the Star Forces lost 211,055 personel. This number included both officers (biological and naturalized Abhs) and enlisted men (human landers). The Basroil has 5 officers and 15 enlisted men, or 25% of the crew are Abhs. Let's take this ratio to be the average across Star Forces, and apply it to the casualty figure.

211,055 x 0.25 = 52764 (rounded)

In CotS book I, Morioka stated the population of Abhs (biological and naturalized) is about 25 million. In other words, a loss 52764 Abhs equates to

52764 / 25,000,000 * 100% = 0.2%

If a single engagement kills off 0.2% of your population, you ought to rethink your course of actions, because you can't sustain a war like this. To give you a comparison, the total US combat death in World War II was 291,557. In 1945, the total US population was 139,928,165.

291,557 / 139,928,165 * 100% = 0.2%

In other words, in a single battle, the Abhs lost the same proportion of their population that the US lost for its entire involvement in World War II (1941-45). You can't sustain a war if you lose your population at this rate. Hence I said the numbers cooked up by the anime staff is entirely bogus.

[ QUOTE ]

The reason I'm asking all these questions is something I've been working on based only on the anime because that's all I have available: http://basroil.falldowngoboom.org/. Unfortunately the Crest brick I bought didn't have any of the inserts...in any case, the translation staff I don't really trust, given the "It splits in two?!" bit. /images/graemlins/happy.gif It's rather unfinished, but the Roil-class page should give an idea of what I'm attempting...

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting stuff you have on that page. You're doing this for an RPG right? You got some pretty good data there given that all you have to go by are the DVDs. You may want to pick my brains for more info since some of your "extrapolations" are a little off. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Oh yeah, I remembered your asking about maximum acceleration and such. Checking with the novels, the limiting factor on acceleration in Abh vessels is the human crew. While the Abhs were genetically engineered to endure prolonged high acceleration without any kind of protective suits or inertia damping, the humans are not.

Typically, Abh vessels do not accelerate faster than 4 Daimon (pronounced like "deh-mon"). The word means "standard gravity" in Abh and 1 Daimon = 0.5g. Since some humans experience discomfrot at 3 Daimon acceleration, for long journeys the rate of acceleration is reduced to 2 Daimon, the typical gravity on a surface world.

In CotS, after Jinto got onboard the Gothelauth, Lexshue ordered her ship to accelerate at 6 Daimon. That's definitely just a short burst of speed because the Gothelauth was fairly close to the gate and it was granted a limited window to enter it.

The Star Forces calls any acceleration of 8 Daimon or above a "high acceleration." This is typically done in emergency only because it severely hampers the ability of the human crew to function. The only exception is Ekuryua. She's a speed-freak so she always goes for maximum acceleration, much to the horrors of others...

12-01-2004, 04:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:
The real question here is just how much attention to detail Morioka has put into the Crest universe. And by attention to detail, I mean how much research has gone into continuity and extrapolation of current science. From what I've seen in the Crest documentaries, it sounds like he put a fair bit of attention in, but was more concerned about telling a story than actually making a world that made absolute sense.

Contrast that to David Webber's Honor Harrington series which, while not exactly grounded in modern science, has a remarkable amount of detail and is consistant to it. To the point you can argue things that happen and have grounds to do so. When talking about finer points of Crest I often wonder if the answer just isnt, "because I thought it looked good".

[/ QUOTE ]

Morioka definitely put a lot of thoughts in his story universe. One reason why I like CotS/BotS so much is how internally consistant it is. If you can accept the premise that the story universe is based on, then everything else makes perfect sense to you.

The problem is when it gets animated, the staff doesn't necessary cosult everything with Morioka. They do things that look "cool" instead of "makes sense." While Morioka had a lot of control over the producton of his series, and the staff tried to be as faithful to his books as possible, there are some changes that really doesn't jive with what the novels said.

As for the number of ships involved in a battle, you have to remember Japan is the country that produced LoGH, the "classic" space opera where thousands of ships were destroyed in a simple skirmish. Compared to the casualty rate in LoGH, what Morioka said in his books, when he do state them (he doesn't like giving out laundary list numbers), is very light and realistic.

Taking a poke at Honor Harrington... I don't really understand how the main character can lose every ship/fleet she commanded and yet contiually receive promotions. That's realism?

Orca

12-01-2004, 05:04 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:But history has shown that as technology progresses, you actually end up lowering the number of ships/planes/troops needed to defend a given area. Especially as their costs rise, the material cost of just producing those number of vessels would be staggering. Even to the Abh.

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when we're talking about 1 to 4 kilometer long ships (latter number is a rough guesstimate, and almost certainly off). Just building and maintaining one of those behemoths would probably take a noticable chunk of an average system's GDP. The numbers (of ships, not crew) aspect does make some sense though, if you assume that a) a single ship can only project power to the limit of its guns/torpedoes b) the delta-v of any of the ships is likely to be limited to under-torchship levels (they'd need to be mostly fuel otherwise or have antimatter be extremely cheap to produce) c) It takes weeks or months to travel significant distances in Planar Space d) they've got a BIG empire to patrol.

Still, even given all that, the numbers are way too high. /images/graemlins/happy.gif Sorta like the 20K ships initially detected heading for Lobnass. Which later sure didn't LOOK like 20K when they actually fought. Unless they meant that was the weight of them or something? Blah. I've got to admit that the casualty reports at the end are properly...sobering when you see that the *winning* side just took nearly a quarter of a million dead and an unknown number wounded or missing. Which was probably the objective (the price of victory and all that - something frequently ignored).

[ QUOTE ]
I just chaulk it up to the same phenomenon that we see when we watch Macross and see a single mecha firing off more than its own body weight in missiles in a single fight.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite. At least the ships in Crest/Banner have a reason to close to point blank range for engagements - Star Trek and Star Wars are quite silly in that respect (among others) by contrast. That's one thing that made me enjoy the series so much. The space battle sequences were with few exceptions beautifully choreographed and executed. Attempting to watch B5, Star Trek, etc. is just painful after watching Crest.

[ QUOTE ]
Contrast that to David Webber's Honor Harrington series which, while not exactly grounded in modern science, has a remarkable amount of detail and is consistant to it. To the point you can argue things that happen and have grounds to do so. When talking about finer points of Crest I often wonder if the answer just isnt, "because I thought it looked good".

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of it certainly is; for example, the "antimatter in the exhaust" bit was a nice example of a plot device. Pity, that. Just using the exhaust should have been marvelously effective given they're using antimatter/matter for the drives - *without* the need for such things as dumping antimatter into the exhaust (which seems like it should immediately react with said exhaust, natch). Remember the Kzinti lesson! /images/graemlins/happy.gif "A reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive." And you can't get any more efficient than direct matter/antimatter annhilation.

The anti-proton cannon is probably another example of that (you'd want neutral particles if you want a range that isn't so short it's silly, not charged particles). And of course the shields deflecting lasers - but that's a rather common sci fi trope that helps make things more dramatic. I'll give 'em a pass on that. Kind of hard to build up the sort of tension the Battle of Gosroth managed if it's one hit == one kill.

In spite of those niggling details, he has managed to put together a reasonably consistant universe. Lexshue's tactics maximized the advantages of her larger and more capable ship given the limitations of Plane Space combat. The tactics displayed on both sides of the Battle for the Aptic Gate were reasonable, given what we were shown (though in both cases predicated on some incorrect assumptions - which is normal in wartime and in combat). The Abh background is interesting and reasonable, the characters enjoyable and endearing, and while many of the royalty are, well, crazy, they manage to do it in a way that's not stupid.

The characters also aren't superhuman...contrast that to David Weber's later Honor Harrington books where she's all but deified. Though I understand with the latest he's moving away from that ('bout time!).

Orca

12-01-2004, 05:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:Interesting stuff you have on that page. You're doing this for an RPG right? You got some pretty good data there given that all you have to go by are the DVDs. You may want to pick my brains for more info since some of your "extrapolations" are a little off. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd love to do that. Just what you've posted thus far has been enormously helpful - though I do have some questions (generally around some specific stuff that looks (?) like it's contradicted in the anime) - I'll get to those later since it's almost 2:30am here...

Well, here's a few off the top of my head:
1) The Kau class has 6 spinal railguns mounted forward - the animation seems to only show 4 (2 per side, and they split vertically to fire). Another animation screwup? Bandai screwup? Or perhaps just something that wasn't animated?
2) The Garum-class assault ship only has one anti-proton cannon. The animation seems to show it's two small ones? Though when firing it's one coherent blast. *scratches head*. Maybe just something the animation staff thought would look cool.

Not for an RPG actually, more to get some decent hard data and reasonable extrapolations out there in the English-speaking world - what websites I've found that have information are either extremely limited in scope as far as the ships and naval structure are concerned, and/or have flat out wrong information that's obviously and directly contradicted by the animation.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh yeah, I remembered your asking about maximum acceleration and such. Checking with the novels, the limiting factor on acceleration in Abh vessels is the human crew. While the Abhs were genetically engineered to endure prolonged high acceleration without any kind of protective suits or inertia damping, the humans are not. [1g cruising accel, 3g's full power, 4g's flank]

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, so what internal gravity/acceleration control they do have is mainly to keep everybody's feet on the ground and prevent the long-term physiological problems that occur from being in a zero-g environment? Or can only be used to *generate* acceleration and not cancel out its effects? That would make life interesting if the decks are perpendicular to the engine direction as they seem to be. hehe.

Guess I'll have to scale my accel projections back a bit. The 50kps number is an earlier one when I was just pulling numbers out of my...err...hat. As of before you posted this I was figuring something along the lines of 2.5gs max for the battleships and similar sized ships, 4 for the cruisers [figuring 3gs was full power and assuming a 25% speed reserve for flank], and 6 for the assault ships, providing them a large amount of normal-space overtake on their larger opponents.

*scribbles notes*

I'm curious as to what you think of my evaluations of the comparative warship design philosophies of the UM and Abh...where it's off and (hopefully?) where it isn't. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Kellory

12-01-2004, 05:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
If you can accept the premise that the story universe is based on, then everything else makes perfect sense to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have no problem accepting that. The question was posed since it makes things like discussing tactics and what was running through someone's mind feasible if we know the author took that into account instead of just saying, "because we needed it to end in a certain way."

[ QUOTE ]
As for the number of ships involved in a battle, you have to remember Japan is the country that produced LoGH, the "classic" space opera where thousands of ships were destroyed in a simple skirmish. Compared to the casualty rate in LoGH, what Morioka said in his books, when he do state them.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I agree the casualty figures are actually light in terms of the numbers that engaged. Its the actual total number I have problems with. Even accepting the differences in scale, just how many captial ships would a modern navy be capable of losing? While the percentages are light, the absolute numbers are staggering. Simply in terms of industrial capacity.

Of course, I also agree that it wouldnt be as much fun without large numbers. But still, there's something in me that wants a bit more realism in terms of numbers. But then, realism does get in the way sometimes. Star Wars is a much better action film than any of the Star Treks just because they didnt let realism play as large a part against the story.

[ QUOTE ]
Taking a poke at Honor Harrington... I don't really understand how the main character can lose every ship/fleet she commanded and yet contiually receive promotions. That's realism?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its unrealistic in what we know of today's navy. Its much more realistic in terms of the Honorverse. Not to mention I could see an instance where the British Royal Navy would reward loyalty and courage with a new ship as opposed to the US Navy which would probably reward loyalty and courage with an immediate desk job and promotion to flag rank. Not that the US model is bad since it preserves experience, which is something many older militaries lacked or never bothered with.

And actually, Honor only lost 2 ships. The original Fearless and Wayfarer. Prince Adrian was actually McKeon's shop. Remember that when you command a ship. Its always better to lose someone else's ship than your own. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

12-01-2004, 05:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
Unless a Sord is off in the middle of interstellar space, it seems there'd be some kind of human/Abh presence there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is an interesting thing to know about Saudec: it can be moved.

A Saudec can be in one of two states -- open or closed. A closed saudec (saudec loeza) is also known as a Uanon particle in its first state. This is what used to power interstellar starships before people discovered the existence of Planar Space and how to use it for FTL travels.

If you apply sufficient energy to a closed saudec, it will reach a higher state of activity. At this point it becomes an open saudec, and a gateway into the Planar Space. This is also called a Uanon particle in its second state.

An open saudec requires a constant supply of energy to maintain this state. If that energy is gone, the saudec slowly bleeds off the potential energy it has and returns to the closed state again. The half-life of this cycle is 12 years.

So if you let an open saudec bleeds out its potential energy, after 12 years it'll become a closed saudec. You can them capture it, move it to a new location, then supply energy to it again. The saudec becomes an open one, and viola, you've just moved a gateway into Planar Space to a new location.

As for its military significance, let's just say the Four Nations Alliance, led by the United Mankind, tried this trick in Operation Hercules, in order to launch a surprise attack on Lacmhacarh (pronounced as Lak-fa-kalle), the captial of the Empire. It might have worked too, if not for a chance enoucnter with a certain scout crusier...

12-01-2004, 07:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Falcon_73 said:
I have just a few questions for the moment.

Unless I'm totally dense:

Sparuh = Spoor
Gothelauth = Gosroth

Most of the other names appear to be the same. I wonder why the sub-titles (presumably) changed them?

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the fun facts about CotS/BotS is that author Morioka actually created an entirely new language for the Abhs. When you read the novels, you're reading two languages at the same time -- Japanese and Baronh.

In various publications, most notably the CotS Reader's Companion, Morioka released notes on the proper grammars of Baronh, the language of the Abhs. He also provided a glossary of terms, and wrote each word in Japanese, Ath (the Baronh alphabets), and english alphabets.

With the 16 page "grammar lesson" on Baronh, plus the glossary of terms, it becomes possible to spell out a lot of the names and terms from CotS/BotS as it was meant to be spelled by the Abhs. Many fans of the series try to adhere to the Abh spellings as close as possible, to preserve the unique "flavor" that makes reading CotS/BotS so much fun.

Well, we can't expect Bandai to go nuts over this stuff. It's not worth their time to learn the Baronh language just to spell a term here and a name there. They're just going to romanize their own spellings based on the recording script. I don't blame them either. However, it does create a "spelling gap" between what you see in the subs and what you'll read from some of the fans.

I tried to strike a balance between the two. I didn't use Ath spelling for character names (people probably won't know who I'm talking about if I spell Lafiel "Lamhirh" or Jinto "Ghintec"). At the same time, I thought people may be interested to know how certain terms are spelled in the Abh's language, so I tried to include them from time to time. These terms are usually in parenthesis or bolded.

[ QUOTE ]

Does the "headgear" (sorry I don't know the proper name for it) signify rank or any other status? I have seen about 6 different types I think so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

The tiara Abhs wear is as much a part of being an Abh as their blue hair. It's called an almfac in their language. Within the Star Forces (Laburec), what type of almfac you wear has to do with what rank you hold.

For Wing Flyers (equivalent to Ensign) to Deca-Commanders (equivalent to Lieutenant Commander), you wear the generic silver almfac.

Vice Hecto-Commanders (equivalent to Commander) and Hecto-Commanders (equivalent to Captain) wear the almfac clabrar, the single-winged tiara.

Kilo-Commanders (equivalent to Commodore) and above wear the almfac matbrar, the double-winged tiara. Starting with this rank, the officer is called an Imperial Commissioned Officer (fsoetdoriac) and is granted a number of priviledges. Think of them as flag officers (aka, admirals with stars) in today's navy.

One of the privileges is the right to install a private "commander's seat" on their ship. Rear Admiral Spaurh in CotS took advantage of this indulgence. Her commander's seat of doom was completely hand-crafted, has a heavy marble base, and cost three-year's worth of salary for an officer of her rank. (Not that Spaurh draws any salary in the first place. Landed nobles who serve in the Star Forces don't get paid. Like I said in my other post, military service is a duty, not a right or privilege, to landed nobles.) The seat is a constant source of consternation to Kufadis, Spaurh's chief-of-staff. He thought it was excessive, bad for morale, and above all things, makes him feel inferior. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Going back to the double-winged almfac matbrar. You may remember in CotS, when Lexshue dressed down Lafiel in ep. 4, she started with "If you are going to say such pompous words, wait till you're wearing a double-winged tiara!" Lexshue's rank was Hecto-Commander, so she wears the single-winged almfac clabrar. For Lafiel to wear the almfac matbrar, she has to be at least a Kilo-Commander, one rank above what Lexshue held.

In other words, Lexshue was saying, "If you're going to say such pompous words to me, wait till you out-rank me first!"

The anime also shows a gold almfac. This is not mentioned in the novels, but based on who's wearing them, it's kinda obvious they're reserved for each of the eight head-of-family within the Abriel clan. (The Abriels have 8 family branches.)

[ QUOTE ]

I hope someone in a position of influence can encourage those with the ability to translate the books sometime in the next few years. I presume, the current novels are far beyond the neophyte æ—¥æœ¬èªž student such as myself.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on how much patience and preserverance you have. If you are willing to spend time looking up dictionary and learning grammar on your own, you can read the Seikai novels. You won't catch all the subtleties in the dialogues (there are lots), and the Sci-Fi terms may give you a hard time, but you should be able to figure out the general plot.

But I do agree that the Seikai novels are more difficult than your typical novels. If you want to start with something simpler, I'd suggest the R.O.D novels. They are relatively easy and fun to read.

wanfu2k1

12-01-2004, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
And of course the shields deflecting lasers - but that's a rather common sci fi trope that helps make things more dramatic. I'll give 'em a pass on that. Kind of hard to build up the sort of tension the Battle of Gosroth managed if it's one hit == one kill.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually you should be able to create a gravity shield that could deflect lasers. Gravity bends lights, a pheonomon called gravitational lensing, it happens around black holes and to also large clusters of glaxies. In fact that's the most distant object Hubble is able to view if from gravity lensing from galaxy clusters. So in theory if you were advanced enough you should be able to create something that can bend and refract light away from an object. Course if they made that, laser weapons would be totally usless.

wanfu2k1

12-01-2004, 01:07 PM

Here's another question then, if you can move closed saudec can you transport that saudec through an open saudec. And if that's possible is it possible to open that saudec in planar space. Considering the distances of space it seems unrealistic to be able to move closed saudecs using sub light travel.

Nylock

12-01-2004, 01:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Actually you should be able to create a gravity shield that could deflect lasers. Gravity bends lights, a pheonomon called gravitational lensing, it happens around black holes and to also large clusters of glaxies. In fact that's the most distant object Hubble is able to view if from gravity lensing from galaxy clusters. So in theory if you were advanced enough you should be able to create something that can bend and refract light away from an object. Course if they made that, laser weapons would be totally usless.

[/ QUOTE ]

so would every other type of weapon, including particle beams and missiles, with the possible exception of an anti-gravity weapon.

12-01-2004, 01:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Here's another question then, if you can move closed saudec can you transport that saudec through an open saudec. And if that's possible is it possible to open that saudec in planar space.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the novel doesn't say yes or no, so I don't have an absolute answer. But I don't see why not.

However, the problem is, where do you find another saudec nearby? The chances of 2 saudec being next to each other is rather low. So no matter which way you slice it, you're looking at substantial amount of time traveling at sub-light speed in normal space.

That's why the preparation work for Operation Heraclues took decades to complete.

[ QUOTE ]

Considering the distances of space it seems unrealistic to be able to move closed saudecs using sub light travel.

[/ QUOTE ]

Remember, before people discovered the Planar Space, everybody was using closed saudecs (aka Uanon Particle) as the power source for their interstellar spacecrafts. So at one point everybody was moving closed saudecs around using sub-light travel without realizing what they're doing. In fact, that's how the people of Martine traveled from Earth to their colony.

12-01-2004, 03:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:
I have no problem accepting that. The question was posed since it makes things like discussing tactics and what was running through someone's mind feasible if we know the author took that into account instead of just saying, "because we needed it to end in a certain way."

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I see. Well, from what Morioka said at Otakon, he did take things into account. During his panel, he was telling us how for BotS II, he drew up battlelines on paper, figuring out how the prisoners would attack given their resources, and how the security contingent would defend with what they had. He sketched out each phase of the battle and used that as a reference later. Even though he never really described the actual ebb and flow of the ground battle, he "fought it out" entirely so he could keep a big picture in mind as he wrote.

[ QUOTE ]

And I agree the casualty figures are actually light in terms of the numbers that engaged. Its the actual total number I have problems with. Even accepting the differences in scale, just how many captial ships would a modern navy be capable of losing? While the percentages are light, the absolute numbers are staggering. Simply in terms of industrial capacity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, in my other article, I've pretty much said the number you saw in BotS I is totally bogus. So I won't defend it.

As for the numbers Morioka quoted for Sufugnoff, I thought they were okay given the scope of the universe. When you own half the galaxy with over 1500 heavily populated star systems and 20,000+ semi-inhabited systems, you can afford to lose ships on the scale of hundreds. If you look at the numbers at Sufugnoff, irreversible losses for Star Foces was just 42 ships destroyed. Trife had to struck out another 103 ships from his roster because these were so heavily damaged they needed to be repaired at a dock/naval yard. But we can presume these ships would be fixed up and put back into service after some time. 42 ships is a drop in the bucket for a Empire that spans half the galaxy.

To give you a comparison, during the Battle of Okinawa in WWII, the US Navy was losing one ship a day. Total losses for the battle was 36 sunk and 368 damaged. If a country that spanned half of a continent absorbed this losses (well, Adm. Nimitz was screaming about the casualty rate, but he took it), what's 42 to a galatic empire?

Now, far more serious was the losses suffered during the defense of the capital. The Star Forces had 140 battlegroups, while the Four Nations Alliance had 120. Both sides lost significant portions of their fleet. And because of it, the war effectively stopped for three years. It took that long for both sides to rebuild their fleet strength before they could afford to fight another major engagement. So yes, a high casualty rate do have an impact in the story universe.

In fact, the Three Nations Alliance (in particular the United Mankind) got whopped so bad in BotS I, they were on the run in BotS II. Admiral Spaurh's losses was a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. But on the strategic scale, the Abhs have won the initiative and they are pressing it.

[ QUOTE ]

Of course, I also agree that it wouldnt be as much fun without large numbers. But still, there's something in me that wants a bit more realism in terms of numbers. But then, realism does get in the way sometimes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Speaking of realism, at Otakon Morioka explained why he invented the science of space-time bubble in planar space. He said given today's computer technology, we can expect by the time a society becomes star-faring, they have targeting computers that can track a target at extreme distances. Then space combat would be just a blip on the radar screen firing at another blip on the radar screen. While this may be realistic, it isn't terribly exciting to read about. So he invented the space-time bubble physics to force engagements at a much closer and personal range. He was a little chagrined that he had to do this, but said sometimes you have to give up a little realism to tell an interesting story.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
Taking a poke at Honor Harrington... I don't really understand how the main character can lose every ship/fleet she commanded and yet contiually receive promotions. That's realism?

[/ QUOTE ]

Its unrealistic in what we know of today's navy. Its much more realistic in terms of the Honorverse.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait, and you have problems because the casualty figures are unrealisitc in what we know of today's industrial capacity, even though it's much more realistic in terms of the Seikai universe? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Njr Scrawl

12-01-2004, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Captain Lexshue - The character that probably saved the show for me. Though her time on the screen was somewhat limited, it was most memorable. I much admire her determination, skill and ability to bring out the best in others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Lexshue is for me too. Not just her personality, speech & manner, but the fondness & loyalty to her & her command I sensed from her crew on the Gosforth. The dread that came over me as their final minutes & fate were shown sticks to this day. 
And the two lovers. When I see implied or displayed human-type emotion that people have for each other in animÃ© - I want more of that series.

After episode 4, I decided to buy the rest of Crest, if only to see how its events would catch up to and affect Lafiel. By & in BII, Lafiel is maturing to show she has inherited certain characteristics of both her parents, with her very own on top.

Banner I was the more nailbiting, & I realised that I really cared about all Lafiel's crew, & that they had become almost as fond of her, as Lexshue's Gosforth crew had for their Captain.

Compared to the above, Spoor seems shallow & 2 dimensional. Not quite comic relief, as she is an important player in the events affecting Lafiel & Jinto, but as a person, I felt no attatchment to her.

Njr Scrawl

12-01-2004, 04:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I do think the Charge of the Light Brigade and the Battle of the Alamo are better analogies. The Light Brigade had no business going into the teeth of a fortified position with interlocking machine gun fields of fire with horse calvary in World War I. But their orders got mixed up and instead of charging the side of the position, they ended up going directly in. But if it was a mistake, history still records and respects the courage it took in what was probably the last true calvary charge with mounted horse troops.

The Alamo is better though. Here we have defenders attempting to defend against a superior force. They had some good leaders and fighters. In any event, they were well led, but in a basically untenable situation. Santa Anna had enough men to completely surround the mission and it was never designed as a real fortification. Their goal was to hold long enough for American reinforcements to arrive. And to that end they delayed and held Santa Anna as long as they could before, in the end, they were overwhelmed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree the Alamo, if only for its heroism & propoganda signifigance maybe is the better analogy (I was more moved by the Gosforth episodes than Alamo movie!). Leyte Gulf - interesting, must read up on that /images/graemlins/happy.gif

The Charge of the Light Brigade was in 1854 in the Crimean War. No machine guns, but plenty of cannon blasted them. Like Custer then, it was headstrong commanders (Cardigan & Raglan) who thought national superiority would win over superior numbers of enemy.

Do Abhs have/believe in an afterlife?

wanfu2k1

12-01-2004, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:

Remember, before people discovered the Planar Space, everybody was using closed saudecs (aka Uanon Particle) as the power source for their interstellar spacecrafts. So at one point everybody was moving closed saudecs around using sub-light travel without realizing what they're doing. In fact, that's how the people of Martine traveled from Earth to their colony.

[/ QUOTE ]

And how many generations was it before the people of martine arrived from earth? If you look at our own local star systems. The closest star is about 4 light years away. So even going at the speed of light which is around 186,0000 miles a sec it would take 4 years. It would take eons to move Saudecs from 1 star system to another in sub light mode. Course I don't know what kind of speeds the UM or Abhs are able to attain with their technology.

Orca

12-01-2004, 05:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:It would take eons to move Saudecs from 1 star system to another in sub light mode. Course I don't know what kind of speeds the UM or Abhs are able to attain with their technology.

[/ QUOTE ]

Antimatter drives, so given enough investment (say, the output of a system's worth of antimatter for a few months|years), reasonable relativistic speeds are quite possible. Plus a Saudec in its closed state is an energy source. So figure they could get to some fairly high velocities - enough so to make moving a Saudec to another system reasonable given a time span of decades. And if they use expendible antimatter boosters, they can give themselves a nice big push at the beginning.

Kellory

12-02-2004, 02:14 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
As for the numbers Morioka quoted for Sufugnoff, I thought they were okay given the scope of the universe. When you own half the galaxy with over 1500 heavily populated star systems and 20,000+ semi-inhabited systems, you can afford to lose ships on the scale of hundreds. If you look at the numbers at Sufugnoff, irreversible losses for Star Foces was just 42 ships destroyed. Trife had to struck out another 103 ships from his roster because these were so heavily damaged they needed to be repaired at a dock/naval yard. But we can presume these ships would be fixed up and put back into service after some time. 42 ships is a drop in the bucket for a Empire that spans half the galaxy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont see how we can compare lossing during World War II against losses suffered in the future. Or at least say that high losses are acceptable in the future because it was in the past.

During WW II losing 42 ships in the course of a campaign was acceptable. During WW I it would have been considered a great victory. During the days of the Spanish Main, losing 42 ships defeating a large enemy would have been almost impossible. Today, if the Navy lost 42 ships during the course of a campaign everyone from the CNO down through the various CINCs and whoever commanded the fleet would be court martialed for incompetence. Since that would be equivilent to losing close to 5% of our total forces including supply and logistics ships.

My point has been that history has shown that as our technology improves the number of ships and men needed to fight decisive battles have dropped dramatically. Star Trek is a lot more realistic in the sense that you almost never see large masses of ships. You see perhaps a half dozen at most and only 1 or 2 large starships engaged in a battle. Starfleet may have hundreds or thousands of ships, but they are so spread out that they rarely come into contact with each other.

Now 42 ships certainly is an acceptable loss rate for the number of ships the Abh commited. My issue is that realistically a space faring nation would probably have a hard time commiting that many ships. Each starship represents a hard value in terms of Financial cost, yard cost, and training cost. And ships have only gotten costlier as time has moved on. And lets not forget, the Ahb tax base is something like .0001% of its total population. And while tax revenues may be enourmous from efficencies of scale, I just have a hard time believing that it is that large. After all, we know Bill Gates is wealthy beyond belief. And I'm sure the gap is at least as large between me and Bill Gates as it is for a Grand Duke and an average Abh citizen. But, could Bill Gates afford to build a new Aircraft Carrier or even Aegis class cruiser on his own? Scaled up I have a hard time believing that even the Abh can afford the kind of loss rates we see in CoTS and BoTS.

I love the series regardless. I just dont think its that realistic in terms of ship losses and even construction rates and hull numbers.

[ QUOTE ]
Wait, and you have problems because the casualty figures are unrealisitc in what we know of today's industrial capacity, even though it's much more realistic in terms of the Seikai universe? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You took my quote out of context. I wasnt refering to casualty rates in that. Merely that in the Honor Harrington universe its perfectly logical to reward a brave ship captain who was right when she took the initiative and saved the crown's bacon. In many ways the Honorverse parallels the Crest universe in terms of honor and its rewards. If Lafiel lost the Basroil defending the capital, I'm sure she'd receive a newer and better ship as a reward. In the modern US Navy she would probably receive a medal and be promoted to admiral and taken out of ship command.

And as I said, Honor only lost 2 ships. The first was lost stopping an invasion of what was essentially home territory. The second was an expendable asset thrown out there as a symbolic gesture and expected to be lost anyway, and was in fact lost saving the life of the nations most prominent private citizen. I dont really think its that unrealistic to expect her to be promoted and given additional commands given that track record.

Certainly Lafiel lost the Basroil under less heroic a situation than Honor lost Fearless.

12-02-2004, 01:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
Still, even given all that, the numbers are way too high. /images/graemlins/happy.gif Sorta like the 20K ships initially detected heading for Lobnass. Which later sure didn't LOOK like 20K when they actually fought.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what the subtitles said in BotS II? Because in the novel, all they ever said was 40 battlegroups. Now 40 x 300 = 12,000 which is still a significant amount of ships.

[ QUOTE ]

Part of it certainly is; for example, the "antimatter in the exhaust" bit was a nice example of a plot device. Pity, that. Just using the exhaust should have been marvelously effective given they're using antimatter/matter for the drives - *without* the need for such things as dumping antimatter into the exhaust (which seems like it should immediately react with said exhaust, natch). Remember the Kzinti lesson! /images/graemlins/happy.gif "A reaction drive's efficiency as a weapon is in direct proportion to its efficiency as a drive." And you can't get any more efficient than direct matter/antimatter annhilation.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the Seikai universe, ships propel themselves using water as the propellant. (That's why in BotS I, when the Aptic Defense Fleet was low on propellant, the Bibothec twins looked to the planet for solutions.) What Lafiel did was she dumped anti-matter into the water while it's being pushed out of her thruster nozzle. Like you said, there's matter/anti-matter reaction, which generated a large amount of radiation. The Baron, not knowing what's going on, charged through her exhaust and the radiation killed him. That's what happened in the novel.

Orca

12-02-2004, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:That's what the subtitles said in BotS II? Because in the novel, all they ever said was 40 battlegroups. Now 40 x 300 = 12,000 which is still a significant amount of ships.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Confirming the number of space-time bubbles. Initial estimates show that there's over 20,000...Forty squadrons." (heh, 240 ships or 20,000, they can't seem to make up their minds).

And hm, 40 battlegroups...in the novel, was Spoor stuck with her 33 ships? 'cuz if so, it's a miracle she escaped at all. I figured the 20K/40 battlegroup/squadron figure was just another screwy translation like so many of the others. Water for coolant. HAH.

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:In the Seikai universe, ships propel themselves using water as the propellant. (That's why in BotS I, when the Aptic Defense Fleet was low on propellant, the Bibothec twins looked to the planet for solutions.) What Lafiel did was she dumped anti-matter into the water while it's being pushed out of her thruster nozzle. Like you said, there's matter/anti-matter reaction, which generated a large amount of radiation. The Baron, not knowing what's going on, charged through her exhaust and the radiation killed him. That's what happened in the novel.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sort of assumed they were mixing antimatter with the water in a controlled manner to generate the motive force to begin with. Anything else would produce rather lower delta-v or lower thrust. I was also assuming they weren't using antimatter catalyzed fusion for power/thrust due to the use of plain water (not hydrogen) as propellent and the apparent proliferation of antimatter generation plants in populated systems. You also don't want to melt your reaction chamber walls - the power densities of an antimatter drive are ridiculously high. I assumed a gas or plasma core antimatter thruster - otherwise they wouldn't be able to get the sort of performance they get out of their ships, namely, sustained multiple g's of thrust and a ship that isn't 90% fuel (or so I assume!). The ships are also rather small for a beam core antimatter thruster - which by current guesstimates wouldn't be likely to produce enough thrust anyway (though its delta-v would be...impressive, to put it mildly).

...yes, I've been doing a little too much research while working out reasonable delta-v/thrust combinations for the ships. <.<

The upshot of all that is that the reaction chamber is likely to be oozing nice friendly radioactive particles and the exhaust at point blank range would be quite useful for peeling armor if fired at maximum power/efficiency. Keep in mind that in order to get any sort of meaningful thrust while maintaining a decent delta-v, your reaction chamber temperature is going to be very, very high.

In summary, killing him with the exhaust was almost certainly possible - and it didn't require dumping additional antimatter into it. Simply getting in his face and going to maximum efficiency/power should have done the trick. Just one of the cracks in the series, which is fine. It isn't something I even noticed until the third or so time through the series. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

12-02-2004, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
The Charge of the Light Brigade was in 1854 in the Crimean War. No machine guns, but plenty of cannon blasted them. Like Custer then, it was headstrong commanders (Cardigan & Raglan) who thought national superiority would win over superior numbers of enemy.

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Actually, the real culpit belongs to a certain Captain Nolan. An impatient young man, he was charged with delivering the attack order (against a different battery and from a position of advantage). Because of elevation differences (600 ft), the commander of the Light Brigade could not see the battery he's supposed to attack. The only one he saw was the death-trap. So he questioned the order and asked for clarification.

Captain Nolan had always been contemptful of the commander of the Light Brigade. So in front of all the men, he pointed to the death-trap and angrily shouted, "There, my Lord! There is your enemy! There are you guns!" Then he rode away.

What else could the commander do but order the suicide charge after that?

More info (http://www.victorianweb.org/history/crimea/chargelb.html)

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Do Abhs have/believe in an afterlife?

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No. Abhs are atheists, and for good reason too. Early on in their history, the Abhs revered the Mother City, their creators. After they declared independence, the Abhs lived in a constant state of fear, certain that the Mother City would send an expedition to punish them. To counter that, the Abhs militarized themselves and dedicated to building a large military.

Time went by, and no punitive expedition came. To the Abhs, this only meant the Mother City was preparing a massive response that'll surely wipe out their existence. They had so much reverence to their creators, that they could not conceive the possibility that perhaps the Mother City had declined, and simply could not afford to build another interstellar starship.

In the end, the irrational fear grew so huge, that the Abhs decided they must act first before the Mother City did. So they returned home and launched a surprise attack on the city, destroying it completely and spacing everyone living there.

It was only after the battle, when the Abhs looked at the wreckage floating in space, that the reality of what they did sank in. The Mother City never had the strength nor the incline to pursue them, but they couldn't see that. Their reverence to their creators had turned into fear, and fear made them irrational. From that point on, the Abhs resolved that they will never, ever, worship another race or being, because they've seen what blind faith could do.

The Abhs also felt incredibly guilty over what they had done. The Mother City created them to find a colony in order to preserve their culture. And now that culture was destroyed by its very tool of preservation. On that day, the Abhs pledged themselves to a new mission -- to preserve the Mother City's culture. Through the Abhs, the Mother City would live on. And so it had, to Jinto and Lafiel's days.

Last but not least, the Mother City gave the Abhs blue hair, to distinguish them as a manufactured slave race. The Abhs decided to keep the blue hair to remind themselves of their origin, and the Original Sin they had committed. Over time the blue hair became a badge of honor, and the Abhs are very proud of it now.

Now, while the Abhs are atheists and don't believe in the afterlife, they do have a sacred ground though. In the end of CotS, you saw Lafiel and her father talking in a garden with white columns. On each column were engraved the names of those who had died in service to the Empire. These names were arranged according to the chronology of their deaths, and without regard to race and social/military ranks.

Words in relif adorns the top of each column. It says,

Frybarec a dal frone'de
The Empire does not forget thee

This is where Lafiel saw her father "crying without tears" as he traced over Lexshue's name.

12-02-2004, 04:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
1) The Kau class has 6 spinal railguns mounted forward - the animation seems to only show 4 (2 per side, and they split vertically to fire). Another animation screwup? Bandai screwup? Or perhaps just something that wasn't animated?

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I think this may have been a mistake on the PC game strategy guide. Looking at the Kau-class closely, it seems more likely while it does have 8 electromagnetic cannons, the arrangement should be 4 fixed forward and 4 fixed rearward.

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2) The Garum-class assault ship only has one anti-proton cannon. The animation seems to show it's two small ones? Though when firing it's one coherent blast. *scratches head*. Maybe just something the animation staff thought would look cool.

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The Garum-class got morphed into a "small combat vessel" in the DVD booklet. It has similar speed to the assault ships, some laser cannons (that's the two small ones you saw), no anti-proton cannon, and 2 mines.

Definitely a case of smoking stale weeds. It doesn't even match what you see on screen. I'm glad they fixed that in the PC game, so I went with what's listed there.

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Interesting, so what internal gravity/acceleration control they do have is mainly to keep everybody's feet on the ground and prevent the long-term physiological problems that occur from being in a zero-g environment?

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The novels said the Abhs can tolerate extended periods of high-g accleration. They can function (though with discomfort) at g-levels that normal humans would have passed out long before reaching that point.

The impression I get is the Abhs keep their ships at 1 Daimon (0.5g) for the sake of the human crew, and because it's convenient (you don't have to secure everything). The Abhs themselves are genetically modified to thrive on zero-g environment. In fact, all new born Abhs are kept in a sodmronh (nursery) that has no gravity. There they learn how to use their almfac (tiara) and spatial sensor. They also become accustomed to zero gravity and develop the part of brain that'll allow them to fly spaceships as a relfexive action.

There's a beautiful scene at the end of BotS I novel that shows how good the Abhs are in a zero-g environment. When Lafiel and Jinto were going up to the new Basroil, they used those hand-rails to get to to the airlock. For Lafiel, she just used the rails to give herself an initial boost, then let go and flew on inertia the rest of the way. Touching her boots to the hand-rail's steel cable from time to time, she slows herself and landed with the grace of a gymnast. Jinto on the other hand, hanged on to the hand-rail for dear life the whole way. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

I was rather disapointed that the anime changed the scene, and had both of them using the hand-rail all the way.

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As of before you posted this I was figuring something along the lines of 2.5gs max for the battleships and similar sized ships, 4 for the cruisers [figuring 3gs was full power and assuming a 25% speed reserve for flank], and 6 for the assault ships, providing them a large amount of normal-space overtake on their larger opponents.

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You're assuming the Abhs designed their ships to fight in normal space. They don't. In the Seikai universe, everybody designed their ships to fight in planar space. The Battle of Aptic Gate, where a large portion of the battle was fought in normal space, was an anomaly.

Remember in CotS, when Lafiel were trying to outrun the mines? She couldn't in planar space, because her communication shuttle has more mass, and thus was slower in planar space. But once in normal space, it has more thrust than the mines and she easily out-paced them. So be careful when deciding how much thurst each ship type has based on their relative size alone.

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I'm curious as to what you think of my evaluations of the comparative warship design philosophies of the UM and Abh...where it's off and (hopefully?) where it isn't. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

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Off the top of my head...

1) Calicke (actual spelling: caricec) is not a class. It's just the Abh word for "boat." Actually, "launch" is a better word, though you can say "shuttle" too but I prefer "launch." It captures the meaning better because like the caricec, a launch is a short-ranged vessel used to transfer people between ships, or between the ship and the shore.

2) The electromagnetic cannon (irgymh) fires nucler fusion warheads (spytec). These are acclerated to 0.01c. They have control thrusters which are used to put them in a random evasive pattern on the way to the target. Their high speed and random evasive pattern makes them extremely difficult to be targeted and shot down by point-defense. (Even Ekuryua, who is regarded by all as a good gunner and swatted every mines coming at her, could only down 1 out of 4 spytec in BotS I.) The spytec has a self-guidance system which keeps them on target.

3) The size of space-time bubble a ship generates does not change whether it's in normal space or not. The only time the size of a bubble changes is when multiple ships merge their bubbles together to form a larger one. The size of a bubble has to do with the output of the bubble generator of course, and larger ships can put out a larger bubble. This gives them more time to engage the mines and thus making them more survivable against mine attacks. Among the Star Forces, the rule-of-thumb states that in planar space, two mines is enough to gurantee a kill on an assault ship in its single bubble.

4) The Roil-class doesn't carry any "ordanance" per se. Its weapon (and defensive) systems draw power from its anti-matter reactor. As long as the engine is putting out power, the ship can fight.

5) The laser cannons are, for all intents and purposes, point-defense only. Think of them as the 40mm on a WWII war ship. Good for shooting down planes. Not good for anything else.

6) Your design notes on the Roil-class is... out of the hat, shall we say. /images/graemlins/wink.gif The Star Forces employ assault ships because they are cheap. A scout cruiser battlegroup has the equivalent firepower of 5 assault ship battlegroups. There are those within the Star Forces who believe they should switch to a scout cruiser only force. Cost concerns make that impractical of course, but like the "Light Weight Fighter Mafia" the debate never ends.

If anything, the lesson from Sufugnoff and the defense of the capital is that scout cruisers are god. At least that's the lesson the Three Nations Alliance walked off with, hence by BotS I, their fleet has a much higher number of scout cruisers than the Abh one.

The Attack Ships that's introduced in BotS III seems to be a compromise between the "cheap" vs "firepower" camp. We'll have to wait till BotS IV (coming out in a week or two) to find out how good they fare in actual combat.

7) On mines, the "multiple-warhead" version the United Mankind is useful only in normal space combat. If you split up in planar space, then each warhead needs its own bubble generator. That'll make for a HUGE mine (huge = heavy = slow in planar space) and it's not practical. Also, do not confuse the anti-matter missiles carried by UM assault ships with the mines carried by the scout cruiser and battleships. Those anti-matter missiles don't get a bubble generator and cannot be used in planar space. Mobile Space-Time Explosive Mines, by their very definition, must possess a bubble generator. That's another reason why I stick with the word "mine" in order to distinguish them from those missiles.

8) For evasive manuevers, Abhs trust themselves and the "touch" of their piloting skills. The Four/Three Nation Alliance leave it up to their computer, which has self-learning capabilities. In the long run both approaches turn out to be more or less equally capable.

Anything else you want to know?

12-02-2004, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
It would take eons to move Saudecs from 1 star system to another in sub light mode. Course I don't know what kind of speeds the UM or Abhs are able to attain with their technology.

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A lot of the closed saudec were found in the Oort Cloud area of a star system, that seems to be the region where they have a high probability of appearing.

I'm not saying the entire journey had to be done sub light. Since Morioka never said you cannot bring a closed saudec through an open one, I must assume that it's doable. What I'm saying is, even if you find a closed saudec that suits your needs, it may not be close by to an open one, which means you have to do some legging in sub light to get to the open saudec just to bring the closed one home.

Where the saudec opens to in normal space is independent of where it opens to in planar space. Two saudecs that are next to each other in planar space may be thousands of light years apart in normal space.

keyed

12-02-2004, 05:37 PM

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Ahjenta said:
We'll have to wait till BotS IV (coming out in a week or two) to find out how good they fare in actual combat.

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/images/graemlins/stunned0.gif
A new book.. so he's finally come back after his hiatus. When do you think they'll start production on the anime for it?

12-02-2004, 05:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
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Captain Lexshue - The character that probably saved the show for me. Though her time on the screen was somewhat limited, it was most memorable. I much admire her determination, skill and ability to bring out the best in others.

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Lexshue is for me too. Not just her personality, speech & manner, but the fondness & loyalty to her & her command I sensed from her crew on the Gosforth. The dread that came over me as their final minutes & fate were shown sticks to this day. 

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Hmmm, it's hard for me to say which character I like most in CotS/BotS. I like Jinto/Lafiel, Lexshue, Spoor, Ekuryua, and Atosuryua all for different reasons. I really can't say I like one of them more than the other, as they appeal to me for different reasons and on different levels.

That said, I do like Lexshue a lot. She is the best career officer to ever grace an anime title. She is able to command respect without throwing her rank around. Her calm demeanor bespeaks a confidence, determination, and professionalism that is very reassuring. She also shows genuine care to those under her charge. She establishes a good rapport with her subordinates and remains approachable to them, without compromising her authority. I think most people would agree with me if I say Lexshue is the kind of officer you would want to serve under.

I was devastated by ep. 5. I was so sure it's going to end differently. I kept waiting for the heroic victory or some kind of nick in the time miracle. When it ended the way it did, I was in a depressive funk for several days. Then it suddenly occured to me that when the Abhs were first introduced, they were depicted as the invaders. They seemed to be cold, uncaring and almost villianious. And yet by ep. 5 my feelings towards them had completely changed, and I was actually rooting for them and concerned about their well-being. I thought, wow, if the author could pull this off, he's definitely worth checking out. So Lexshue plays a role in convincing me to get the novels. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]

And the two lovers. When I see implied or displayed human-type emotion that people have for each other in animÃ© - I want more of that series.

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Definitely so for me too. I like the banter that goes on between Jinto and Lafiel, but I also like the maturing relationship between them. Their relationship really clicked for me in the communication shuttle over Sufugnoff. When Jinto chastised Lafiel for being reckless, and she accepted his reproach, I was hooked. Not only does it show Jinto has a spine and Lafiel is capable of admitting her errors, it also reveals the give-and-take relations between the two. A relationship that's built on equality is one that appeals to me most.

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Compared to the above, Spoor seems shallow & 2 dimensional. Not quite comic relief, as she is an important player in the events affecting Lafiel & Jinto, but as a person, I felt no attatchment to her.

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Spaurh is just too much fun for me. I like her for her eccentricity, and the way she tortures Kufadis. Her biting comments, understatments and sarcasms are wonderful and on the mark too.

For Ekuryua I like those out of the blue comments she makes from time to time, that always seem to take everyone by surprise. Besides, you have to see that speed-demon side of hers to realize how good she is at victimizing people. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Atosuryua doesn't shine that much in BotS I, but she gets a lot more exposure in BotS III. As a first generation Abh, she has just enough human landers left in her to give her a charm of her own. Besides, finding out about that punching bag (with a name, no less!) in her room is just... priceless. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

12-02-2004, 06:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
keyed said:
/images/graemlins/stunned0.gif
A new book.. so he's finally come back after his hiatus. When do you think they'll start production on the anime for it?

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He didn't go on a hiatus, he spent the last three years writing a modern day fantasy trilogy. The traitor. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

I can't tell if/when production of the anime will begin. It all depends on what happens in BotS IV. Book III hasn't been animated yet because nothing happened there. It's all about positioning pieces for the next phase of the war. (I can summarize Book III in two sentences: "Jinto convinces Martine to surrender. The Empire deploys a new type of ship.")

Now, the little blurb that they released for Book IV implies Lafiel and Jinto, now in a brand new Attack Ship, will head towards a new battlefield. So I presume there should be enough of story and action to fill a new season, especially when combined with book III. Still, I need to read book IV to be sure. But I'll definitely keep an eye out on Bandai/Wowow from now on. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Orca

12-02-2004, 06:19 PM

Mainly was looking for feedback on the Space Forces notes, which were made before you started clarifying things. The rest is largely miscellanious brain farting or notes that I wanted to record in case I decided to use it (such as the extensive lists of where to find various ships in the anime).

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:2) The electromagnetic cannon (irgymh) fires nuclear fusion warheads (spytec). These are acclerated to 0.01c. They have control thrusters which are used to put them in a random evasive pattern on the way to the target. Their high speed and random evasive pattern makes them extremely difficult to be targeted and shot down by point-defense. (Even Ekuryua, who is regarded by all as a good gunner and swatted every mines coming at her, could only down 1 out of 4 spytec in BotS I.) The spytec has a self-guidance system which keeps them on target.

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What sort of engagement ranges are there in normal space? In a space-time bubble it looks like anything you can bear on with your railguns is dead because there's no time for evasion or defense - the ranges are just too short. .01c is almost 3000kps after all...hm. The fact that Ekuryua even had the time to knock down one seems to indicate the spacetime bubble at that time (which had what, 7 assault ships plus the cruiser?) was fairly large - at least a hundred kilometers in diameter, assuming she has insanely fast reflexes and the turret's already pointed in the right direction. *scratches head*. Hmmmm...

[ QUOTE ]
3) The size of space-time bubble a ship generates does not change whether it's in normal space or not. The only time the size of a bubble changes is when multiple ships merge their bubbles together to form a larger one. The size of a bubble has to do with the output of the bubble generator of course, and larger ships can put out a larger bubble. This gives them more time to engage the mines and thus making them more survivable against mine attacks. Among the Star Forces, the rule-of-thumb states that in planar space, two mines is enough to gurantee a kill on an assault ship in its single bubble.

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Eesh. I pulled the 60km out of my hat to attempt to explain how they even were able to defend against the mines (I didn't know about the velocity zeroing upon merging at the time and figured they needed *some* time to respond if they had a guided weapon tearing in on them at 50kps or some such). So the bubbles depicted in normal space in the anime are probably on the small side for cinematic reasons - if the bubble's really only 3 times the max length of the ship, simply killing one incoming mine would end up a crapshot due to the limitations on turret slew rates even ignoring the reaction time of the defender or defender's systems.

[ QUOTE ]
4) The Roil-class doesn't carry any "ordanance" per se. Its weapon (and defensive) systems draw power from its anti-matter reactor. As long as the engine is putting out power, the ship can fight.

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Another translation/anime error when Atosuryua says that they're running low on fuel and ammo? Fuel is believable since they were slamming about at (presumably) maximum thrust while dueling.

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5) The laser cannons are, for all intents and purposes, point-defense only. Think of them as the 40mm on a WWII war ship. Good for shooting down planes. Not good for anything else.

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Contradicted in the anime. Guess I'll have to make a note of that since they differ.

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6) Your design notes on the Roil-class is... out of the hat, shall we say. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

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Precisely correct. It was manufactured out of whole cloth to explain why none were seen in Crest. Obviously to be deleted now and replaced with better history. /images/graemlins/happy.gif Got any further information on ship histories and what-not? Not just the Roil, but any and all that have been detailed...

[ QUOTE ]
7) On mines, the "multiple-warhead" version the United Mankind is useful only in normal space combat. If you split up in planar space, then each warhead needs its own bubble generator. That'll make for a HUGE mine (huge = heavy = slow in planar space) and it's not practical.

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My understanding based on the anime is that only the carrier vehicle equipped with the bubble generator (though I guess I didn't make that clear). Kind of like an ICBM - the MIRVs aren't each equipped with an orbital booster. I guess I didn't make that clear enough - and in any case it needs to be revised for other reasons.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, do not confuse the anti-matter missiles carried by UM assault ships with the mines carried by the scout cruiser and battleships.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, those are anti-matter? I figured they were fusion or some such since they were external ordinance and the Abh loaded their torps with antimatter only at the last minute (unless that's yet another anime difference).

[ QUOTE ]
Those anti-matter missiles don't get a bubble generator and cannot be used in planar space. Mobile Space-Time Explosive Mines, by their very definition, must possess a bubble generator. That's another reason why I stick with the word "mine" in order to distinguish them from those missiles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I may use "torpedo" vs "missile". A mine that's more mobile than a missile offends my sensibilities. /images/graemlins/happy.gif And I do understand the distinction between them - for one thing, they're employed differently. For another, the Gosroth would have had a fun time knocking down 40 torpedoes at once if those assault ships were equipped with them instead...

[ QUOTE ]
8) For evasive manuevers, Abhs trust themselves and the "touch" of their piloting skills. The Four/Three Nation Alliance leave it up to their computer, which has self-learning capabilities. In the long run both approaches turn out to be more or less equally capable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting detail. And here I thought Ekuryua was just handling target queueing for a computer to engage.

[ QUOTE ]
Anything else you want to know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, everything...

12-02-2004, 10:35 PM

I don't like to get into this kind of arguments: two persons arguing about a series, armed with no facts except what they think how things should function in a fictional future. It too quickly degenerates into "my invisible friend can beat up your invisible friend" kind of arguments. So I'll try to keep the discussion within what we know about CotS/BotS, and back it up with hard facts if possible. If this can't be done, I'll just call it quits.

[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:
My point has been that history has shown that as our technology improves the number of ships and men needed to fight decisive battles have dropped dramatically.

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If you check the news, the US just announced it'll increase its force level in Iraq to 150,000 men. That's Napoleonic scale numbers considering the size of the theater. It would seem that despite all the advances in technology, if you want to hold territory and keep the peace, you still need a pair of boots standing on every street corner. A high force to space ratio is still necessary.

Besides, just because there's a downward trend right now doesn't mean there can't be an upward trend in the future. For various reasons, armies in the Middle Ages were a lot smaller than those in Classical times like the Greeks and Romans. Does that mean it didn't get bigger again? Of coures not. By the Renaissance armies were growing steadily larger again. It was only after WWII that we started to see the downward trend again.

[ QUOTE ]

Star Trek is a lot more realistic in the sense that you almost never see large masses of ships. You see perhaps a half dozen at most and only 1 or 2 large starships engaged in a battle. Starfleet may have hundreds or thousands of ships, but they are so spread out that they rarely come into contact with each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're forgetting the reason why Abhs fight. They're not fighting to control the planets, they are fighting to keep a monopoly on space. They want to make sure that nobody else but Abhs (and those they give permission to) get to travel in normal/planar space. And that requires a large number of ships.

No matter how powerful a ship is, it can only be at one place at any given time. This aspect becomes most prominent during planar space battles, when the majority of combats can't event occur until opposing sides have merged their space-time bubbles.

Say we do this the Star Trek way. You want to keep me on my planet and deny me the use of space. You send 1 ship. I send 20 blockade runners charging into the saudec. What are your options? Fire your mines? Okay, I give each blockade runner an escort or two. These are small, dedicated mine-killers. Easy to build and not expensive at all. Now you're not sure if you can stop my runners with mines alone. What other options do you have? Engage me in gunnery combat. But you can only do that to one ship at a time, and I have 20. The majority of my ships are going to escape unhampered. If you want to do a good job denying me the use of space, you may need say, 10 ships yourself.

Now I am faced with a tough situation. You have 10 ships, and I can't just run past you anymore without crippling losses. My only recourse is to chase your fleet away. But I can't just call in one ship, you'll gang up on me and kick my ass. No, to give myself a decent fighting chance I need 20 ships, so I bring in 20 to face your 10.

Now we get into the problem of escalation. As long as one side is willing to escalate the number of combatants, the other side must follow or face defeat and annihilation. This is what Clausewitz meant when he advocated Total War. And the Abhs practice Total War, since in their society, joining the military is considered one third of your life experience before you can truly think of yourself as an adult. So if the Abhs are willing to put together a large fleet to contest for local space domination, the Allaince must match them or concede.

[ QUOTE ]

My issue is that realistically a space faring nation would probably have a hard time commiting that many ships. Each starship represents a hard value in terms of Financial cost, yard cost, and training cost. And ships have only gotten costlier as time has moved on. And lets not forget, the Ahb tax base is something like .0001% of its total population. And while tax revenues may be enourmous from efficencies of scale, I just have a hard time believing that it is that large.

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The Abhs have about 1,600 landed noble family who had to pay taxes. However, the Empire has over 1,500 heavily populated systems, plus over 20,000 semi-inhabited (think Febudash Barony) system. In other words, there are 19,900 star systems whose entire revenue belongs to the Empire. I think there is enough money and resources there to build the fleet.

And finally, we really don't know how much each ship cost in comparison to the GDP of a star system. Since Morioka never said they're prohibitedly expensive (unlike in Gundam, where Tomino said in the novels that a single Zaku costs more than a warship.), I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say the economy of his universe can sustain the fleets deployed.

[ QUOTE ]

Merely that in the Honor Harrington universe its perfectly logical to reward a brave ship captain who was right when she took the initiative and saved the crown's bacon. In the modern US Navy she would probably receive a medal and be promoted to admiral and taken out of ship command.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I said, I find it interesting that you're willing to accept Harrington universe as it is, but you are inclined to use modern day standards to judge Seikai universe. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Certainly Lafiel lost the Basroil under less heroic a situation than Honor lost Fearless.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, you just hit on my one and only complain about Seikai so far (well, aside from that fact it took 3 years for book IV to come out). And that is Lafiel really has nothing to show for after 3 books. At least in the anime you see her blown up a couple enemy assault ships. She doesn't even do that in the novel. All she can say right now, is she lost her ship in one battle, and caused the destruction of a fleet in another. Not exactly the kind of resume I want to see on her. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

12-02-2004, 11:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
"Confirming the number of space-time bubbles. Initial estimates show that there's over 20,000...Forty squadrons." (heh, 240 ships or 20,000, they can't seem to make up their minds).

[/ QUOTE ]

I just re-played my R2. That's the little scene at the end of ep. 3 right? In that case yes, the Japanese dialogue did say 20K ships first, then revised down to 40 battelgroups shortly afterwards.

[ QUOTE ]

And hm, 40 battlegroups...in the novel, was Spoor stuck with her 33 ships? 'cuz if so, it's a miracle she escaped at all. I figured the 20K/40 battlegroup/squadron figure was just another screwy translation like so many of the others. Water for coolant. HAH.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep. Spaurh is stuck with just 33 ships. And you think why she really didn't want to get into the fight. It's like Pickett's Charge at Gettysburg. Everybody knew it's a desperate thing to attempt, but they did it anyway out of honor and duty.

And the reason why Spaurh survived at all was that not every ship in those 40 battlegroups were combatants. A lot of them were transports. Spaurh's fleet put up a valiant fight and bloodied the escort force before going down. Which is why when Trife showed up, the enemy just surrendered.

Argh, don't remind me about the propellant mistranslated into coolant gaffe. I showed BotS I to a friend of mine this summer, and I had to pause so often to correct the subs, that my friend finally told me to turn it off and just do a on-the-fly translation of the dialogue.

[ QUOTE ]

I sort of assumed they were mixing antimatter with the water in a controlled manner to generate the motive force to begin with.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, that's what they did. In the reaction chamer, water meets anti-matter in the reaction chamer. Matter cancels anti-matter, creating a large amount of energy. This is imparted to the water that is not used up in the reaction, pushing it out the nozzle and generating thrust.

And yes, your knowledge of various kind of anti-matter power generation system is impressive. Had a little free time on hand I see...

[ QUOTE ]

In summary, killing him with the exhaust was almost certainly possible - and it didn't require dumping additional antimatter into it. Simply getting in his face and going to maximum efficiency/power should have done the trick. Just one of the cracks in the series, which is fine. It isn't something I even noticed until the third or so time through the series. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't even bother checking to see if you need to add additional anti-matter to pull off the trick. I just read the explanation in the novel, it didn't contradict any science I know, and I moved on. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

wanfu2k1

12-03-2004, 12:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:

Where the saudec opens to in normal space is independent of where it opens to in planar space. Two saudecs that are next to each other in planar space may be thousands of light years apart in normal space.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm..so how do they know where each saudec opens to then? Do they go through each saudec and log where it ends up in normal space. Now if you can open a closed saudec in planar space then your just hoping to randomly jump somewhere in normal space. Unless there's some sort of method where they know where in planar space is the normal space equivalent.

12-03-2004, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
Mainly was looking for feedback on the Space Forces notes, which were made before you started clarifying things.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I really can't comment on any of the arbitray numbers you created. Morioka hasn't provided a spec sheet on his ships so the only hard data I have come from actual dialogue and narratives and those don't cover a ship from bow to stern.

And yes, the Lauth-class was the latest scout cruiser desgin at the start of Crest. It was mentioned during the epilogue of Crest that the Kau-class replaced it.

You are right in stating that Abh ships are more manueverable than UM ships and optimized for planar space combat. They also tend to be faster in planar space because UM ships are larger and heavier. (Less mass = faster in planar space physics)

Your whole thing about UM ships relying on a larger complement of laser for extended range engagement is "out of this world" given what I know of CotS/BotS. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

What sort of engagement ranges are there in normal space?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hard to say. Normal space battle is so rare, the only time it happened was at Aptic Gate. Well, there's another one at BotS III, but that was an exercise during a training mission involving the brand new Attack Ships (armed with electromagnetic cannons). It was done so some kind of experience can be learned on how to use this new class of ships.

During that training exercise, it was stated that while in theory the electromagnetic cannon has an unlimited range in normal space, there is a practical range which is defined as the distance where the enemy cannot evade your shots easily. Just exactly how long that distance is, I don't know. Now during the exercise, Atosuryua encountered an enemy ship drifting away. She's isn't sure whether it's destroyed and now playing the role of wreckage, or just playing dead. Then she decided that, at a distance of 7.11 light second, that ship might as well be over in the next galaxy as far as the current battle is concerned.

At the same time, Sobach's ship is just 0.05 light seconds away from the enemy. The narrative says starting at that range, the battle becomes most hectic and sure enough, Sobach is fighting for her life not long afterwards.

Oh yeah, just like a space-time bubble merge, ships just entering or exiting a saudec also has a relative velocity of zero. On top of that, because of the spiraling vortex of a saudec, a ship traversing through a saudec will come out in a completely random position on the other side. In other words, a group of ship entering a saudec in a line formation will come out completely disorganized, with no way to predict where each ship will appear ahead of time.

All this means the defender of a saudec enjoys a tremendous advanatage waiting for the other side to come through. The attackers will come out with no formation, disoriented, and have zero relative velocity to boot.

[ QUOTE ]

The fact that Ekuryua even had the time to knock down one seems to indicate the spacetime bubble at that time (which had what, 7 assault ships plus the cruiser?) was fairly large - at least a hundred kilometers in diameter, assuming she has insanely fast reflexes and the turret's already pointed in the right direction. *scratches head*. Hmmmm...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the anime stretched that scene out to a ludicrous level. If you want to go by the novel, the whole thing happened almost in a flash. The UM scout cruiser swings around towards Basroil. Atosuryua immediately orders Lafiel to disengage. Lafiel tells Sobach to space-time separate, and expedite, while simultaneously firing a parting shot with the anti-proton cannon towards the electromagnetic cannons. The cruiser opens fire with a salvo of 4, 1 of which was destroyed by Lafiel's parting shot. Ekuryua tries to intercept with the lasers but misses. Lafiel has just enough time to think, we're done for, before Sobach successfully completes the space-time separation as the salvo is about to slam into the Basroil.

If anything, it's the smallness of the bubble that saved the Basroil. If it's as huge as you say, there's no way the Basroil could have split off in time.

[ QUOTE ]

Another translation/anime error when Atosuryua says that they're running low on fuel and ammo? Fuel is believable since they were slamming about at (presumably) maximum thrust while dueling.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're referring to the scene where Lafiel was protesting her ship can still fight, then yes Bandai was lying again. In the novel and in the anime, all Atosuryua said was they are withdrawing temporarily, in order to effect emergency repairs on battle damages.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

5) The laser cannons are, for all intents and purposes, point-defense only. Think of them as the 40mm on a WWII war ship. Good for shooting down planes. Not good for anything else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Contradicted in the anime. Guess I'll have to make a note of that since they differ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the UM scout cruiser did score a hit and did some damage to the Basroil. But the novel also points out immediately that, despite the Basroil being a small vessel, the laser still resulted in very little damage.

[ QUOTE ]

Got any further information on ship histories and what-not? Not just the Roil, but any and all that have been detailed...

[/ QUOTE ]

How about the positions and responsibility of the bridge crew members?

On an Abh ship, it's the Senior Gunner who flies the ship in normal space and during combat inside a bubble. The reason being that, since the most powerful weapons (electromagnetic cannon, anti-proton cannon) are fixed mounts, you have to aim the ship in order to aim it. So you might as well have the person who's going to fire the weapons flies the ship as well.

The Senior Navigator is the one in charge of planar space navigation and flight. Typically, the Senior Navigator is also the First Officer. If the First Officer is off-shift, then the Second Officer takes over the function of planar space navigation.

The Engineer operates the space-time bubble generator. He's the one who press the button to turn it on or off. The Engineer is also in charge of maintaing the ship, keeping the engine running, and effect any kind of repairs on the ship.

The Secretary is in charge of the health of the crew members. Aside from all kinds of logistic and administrative work, the secretary also acts as a bridge between the officers and the enlisted. He/She speaks for the enlisted men to the rest of the bridge officers. The Secretary is also charged with maintaining air-tightness of the ship during docking and cast-off. He/She has to make sure all the hatches and air-locks are secured, and there're no air-leaks. During combat, the Secretary seals off compromised sectors, re-pressurizes area to maintain breathable atmosphere, keeps a tap on the status of all the crew members, and sees to it that the wounded receives treatment. Should it become necessary to abandon ship, it's the Secretary's job to make sure everyone is evacuated.

It is often said that during combat, until the ship receives its first hit, the Secretary is the only officer onboard that has nothing to do.

The Basroil has 5 officers and 15 enlisted men. Here is a breakdown of their positions.

Captain + Senior Gunner: Lafiel
You'll note that Lafiel flies the ship in normal space and in combat, even though she's the captain. The reason is that she's also the Senior Gunner and in charge of firing the anti-proton cannon. In CotS, Lexshue has a much bigger bridge crew, so the position of Senior Gunner is separate from Captain, allowing Lexshue to concentrate on command duties.

First Officer + Senior Navigator: Sobach
As per tradition, the First Officer is also the Senior Navigator. Sobach flies the ship in planar space, charts its course, as well as handles space-time fusion/separations.

Second Officer + Senior Communication Officer: Ekuryua
As an officer of the pilot/command branch, Ekuryua is third-in-command of the ship, and takes over Sobach's job when the latter is off-duty. Ekuryua handles all communications in and out of the Basroil. She is also tasked with the laser cannons during combat. It's a reflection of the smallness of an assault ship crew that Ekuryua has to handle so many different responsibilities.

Engineer: Samson
The majority of the enlisted men belongs to Samson's Engineering section.

Secretary: Jinto
Typically, a secretary has the least to do when the pilot/command branch officers are at their busiest. The reverse is also true. During port calls, the pilot/command branch officers can kick back and relax, but the secretary has to handle all the logistic details and is at his/her businest.

Chief Petty Officer: Pavelia
The ranking non-comissioned officer on board. He is in charge of the enlisted men onboard the Basroil.

Engineering Section: 12 enlisted men
This includes Pavelia.

Others: 3 enlisted men
They are the Administrator (Jinto's assistant/secretary), Ship's Medic, and Ship's Cook. These 3 belong to Jinto's Administration/Logistics Section.

The command baton (greuc) carried by captains and battlegroup/fleet commanders has a practical function in addition to being a status symbol. On the tiara (almfac) every biological Abh wears, there are two dangling connectors (cisaigec). When inserted into the appropriate slots (located on the head-rest on the seats), the Abhs are linked with the sensors on the ship and can share data with other Abhs who have done so. (Though not all seats have the same access level. Those reserved for "guests" don't get access to the ship sensors.)

Once the wielder of the greuc is "jacked-in," the greuc becomes something like a laser pointer during a presentation. The wielder can use the greuc to point at something, and that information is immediately passed to every Abh who has linked with the ship. If other ships have established a data-link with the wielder's ship (requires them to share the same space-time bubble), then every Abh on the other ships who are "jacked-in" will receive that information as well.

In other words, if a commander of a flight (6 ships) points the greuc at a hostile blip on the planar space display and says, "All guns commence fire," then every gunner in the flight will know immediately who to shoot at. When Lexshue was swinging her greuc around during CotS, she wasn't doing it for dramatic purposes, she's actually issuing commands and designating targets for her crew.

Some other tidbits of information... "Lauth" means "winged dragon" and "Roil" (actual spelling is "rogrh") means "digger wasp."

Sobach is male in the novel. The anime screwed up and Morioka didn't catch that until it's too late. He keeps joking that someday he'll reconcile the differences by writing a short piece dealing with Sobach deciding to get a sex-change opearation.

[ QUOTE ]

Ah, those are anti-matter? I figured they were fusion or some such since they were external ordinance and the Abh loaded their torps with antimatter only at the last minute (unless that's yet another anime difference).

[/ QUOTE ]

It's stated specifically in the novel that those are anti-matter missiles.

[ QUOTE ]

I think I may use "torpedo" vs "missile". A mine that's more mobile than a missile offends my sensibilities. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You're just like a friend of mine, another person with a strong background in military hardware. He raised the same objection everytime I used the word "mine" in translation, we had the same arguments, and we also settled on the word "torpeedo" in the end. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Anything else you want to know?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, everything...

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with an answer like this is, where the hell should I begin? Should I start with what's everyone's favorite drink? Or should I start with everyone's interesting quirk? Should I talk about Ekuryua and Atosuryua's most traumatic moment? There are just... too many things I can talk about. /images/graemlins/devil.gif

12-03-2004, 01:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Hmm..so how do they know where each saudec opens to then? Do they go through each saudec and log where it ends up in normal space. Now if you can open a closed saudec in planar space then your just hoping to randomly jump somewhere in normal space. Unless there's some sort of method where they know where in planar space is the normal space equivalent.

[/ QUOTE ]

You got it right, it's just trial-and-error. If you open a saudec from planar space and open it, you have no idea where you are until you step through it and take a look at the surroundings. The reverse is also true.

And yes, there are horror stories about explorer vessels opening a new saudec, step through it, only to see an expanding wreckage from one of those old Uanon-powered colony ship. It's quite rare actually, but history has recorded several such tragedies.

In a short story Morioka wrote, the Abh captain of the explorer vessel who discovered Martine was too traumatized by the wreckage of the Leif Ericsson (he thought he just killed a bunch of people), that he refused all communications from Martine. He simply went ahead, logged all necessary data from the planet, turned around and left.

That's why the first contact between Martine and Abh got off to such a bad start. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Njr Scrawl

12-03-2004, 01:18 PM

Ahjenta, have you read the Crest & Banner manga? Is there any additional information there which is in the books, but not animÃ©, or completely exclusive to the manga?

Also how is Tokopop's translation, if you have read the Japanese versions? /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

12-03-2004, 02:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
Ahjenta, have you read the Crest & Banner manga? Is there any additional information there which is in the books, but not animÃ©, or completely exclusive to the manga?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've only read the Banner II manga. I didn't like the cutesy design of the Crest manga so I didn't pick them up. Not to mention, they didn't have enough pages to do the story justice.

The Banner II manga is shoujo-style, which takes a little to get used to after seeing the anime designs. It's pretty good actually and follow the novel closely. I don't remember seeing any new information in it though.

[ QUOTE ]

Also how is Tokopop's translation, if you have read the Japanese versions? /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I only read manga in Japanese. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif The price difference between import and domestic manga is negligible, I'm always "up to date" with a series, plus I'm guaranteed non-flipped artwork and quality paper. But the most important reason being, unlike DVDs where I watch with my friends, I don't loan out my books so there's no reason to pick up an English version just for the sake of "sharing." /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

Shsway

12-04-2004, 01:03 PM

Kay. I'm gonna pariticipate now, before the thread gets locked. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

1. What did you think when you first saw Crest of Stars?

I first saw it airing on TechTV last summer, I believe. I was struck first and foremost by its colors. There are so many blues in this show, some bold, some appropriately faded, which made it an interesting, calming show to take in for me, visually. I also thought that the character designs and look of the ships had a 70's feel to them.

The opening theme music made my heart pound, like anothing in anime had before.

As the story progressed, I was surprised at how quickly I had become attacked to the two leads, and I found the story elements, the universe and the language constructed for this show to be very absorbing. It had a very different feel from everything else I've seen or read in science fiction, with a very perspective and delivery.

2. Did Jinto's father do the right thing?

I guess so, or there wouldn't have been a story to tell. *Laughs*

I don't see any other way for that conflict not to have ended tragically.

3. As it pertains to the United Mankind and the Abh is such a thing as a monarchy worse or better than a democracy? Why?

The way things play out in the show, it really doesn't speak to me as being better or worse. It's simply an influence on the overall occurrence of many events throughout the timeline and history of these peoples.

4. What do you think about the Abh attitude toward life and responsibility? Is it more evolved? Arrogant?

I think it's a mix of both. I find that for the most part, the Abh have an honorable if superior point of view, in the comparisons they make between themselves and human beings. Still, it is not so arrogant that it erases the way that human beings are depicted in Crest and Banner. I find them to be quite petty and unyielding in their fear of the "invaders". I find it natural and well-written, considering the attitudes that persist today towards foreigners of any sort, in many countries.

Even so, the Abh, at their core, are very human indeed in their personal loyalties, frustrations, yearnings and relationships between themselves, their ancestors and their homes.

5. What do you think about Lafiel?

She's beautiful and in need of cuddles.

Personality-wise, she sometimes comes across as cold, but she's another one of those types that feels she has to restrain her emotions. Not just because it is her duty, in many situations, but because that's just the way she is. She's had to live with quite a bit of responsibility all of her life, given her position, but does not treat her subordinates like things and genuinely wants to be thought of as Lafiel, captain of her ship. Not the heir to the throne. I find her to be competent, understanding, and warm. Jinto brings that last bit out of her, quite often. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

6. Is genetic engineering good or bad in the case of the Abh versus normal people?

It seems to work for them. *Shrugs* While I'm not entirely sure that I approve of certain children having a birth secret, Lafiel's argument for it is convincing enough, and perhaps even exciting and special, to a certain degree.

8. Who [are]your favorite characters?

From the first series:

Lafiel
Jinto
Spoor
The merchandise salesman at that theme park, where all hell breaks loose, at the end of the series. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Later, I really looked forward to the scenes with Samson, the Bebaus twins and Lafiel's father.

Shsway

12-04-2004, 01:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
fractured78 said:
As for the more recent episodes:

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Baron Febdash, was he just misguided or an example of what happens when someone has absolute power?

He was a freakish moron with delusions of grandeur, and a high level of self-hatred. There, that was easy.

2. Did Lafiel look better with blue or black hair?

Definitely blue. Yum.

3. Have you ever had difficulty relying on others like Lafiel does to Jinto?

Uh, all the time. Story of my life.

4. If you were to classify yourself as a character in Crest of Stars who would you be most like?

A combination of Jinto and Lafiel. As mentioned above, I have a tough time trusting my life, my feelings to other people. I tend to fend for myself and try to get by quite a few things without emotional support, because I've been hurt and used enough times that I don't like repeating the process.

On the other hand, I wear my heart on my sleeve and am fairly social, open to communication with other folks, like Jinto. He's not that awkward a male lead, a gentleman, and kindhearted towards pretty much everyone.

5. Education - Is this where the real power is?

Oh yes...but it isn't readily available, the next best thing is communication - diplomacy. It's amazing what sort of common ground you can reach with other folks, if you have an open mind and at least make the attempt to listen to people, to understand their thoughts and feelings.

Njr Scrawl

12-05-2004, 10:17 AM

I sincerely hope this thread is not locked. They usually are unstuck when a new discussion comes.

The amount of reference information here & discussion should be archived!

12-05-2004, 12:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
I sincerely hope this thread is not locked. They usually are unstuck when a new discussion comes.

The amount of reference information here & discussion should be archived!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, it would be a shame if this thread gets locked. I'm having too much fun talking about the series. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

fractured78

12-05-2004, 08:36 PM

That's up to the mods to do. Last time they just unstickied it after a few weeks. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Yes, I'm working on the Lain post at the moment.

Natsume_Maya

12-06-2004, 07:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
In spite of those niggling details, he has managed to put together a reasonably consistant universe. Lexshue's tactics maximized the advantages of her larger and more capable ship given the limitations of Plane Space combat. The tactics displayed on both sides of the Battle for the Aptic Gate were reasonable, given what we were shown (though in both cases predicated on some incorrect assumptions - which is normal in wartime and in combat).

[/ QUOTE ]

The discussion about whether the depiction of space combat is realistic, numbers etc, pretty much goes over my head... However, from my recollection, the tactics used in the Battle of the Gosroth were rather two dimensional in the anime, ie the UM ships seemed to surround the Gosroth in a relatively 2D plane, no ships seeming to attack from above or below. Can't recall whether the Battle for the Aptic Gate was similar in this respect.

That was my only real gripe about the space combat. Then again, it was the characters that interested me in the series, not the spaceships /images/graemlins/happy.gif

wanfu2k1

12-06-2004, 12:07 PM

Well some of the battles were occuring in planar space so as far as we know it might be 2d in planar space.

Natsume_Maya

12-06-2004, 07:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Well some of the battles were occuring in planar space so as far as we know it might be 2d in planar space.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I thought of that. But if the ships can exist in planar space in the third dimension, then that suggests that planar space has a third dimension as well. Also, in the anime, the attacking ships would appear at a slightly different altitude IIRC (been a while since I watched that scene), but for some reason none seemed to appear from above or below. Or does the space-time bubble somehow allow 3D things (such as ships) to exist in a 2D planar space...?

wanfu2k1

12-06-2004, 07:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Well some of the battles were occuring in planar space so as far as we know it might be 2d in planar space.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I thought of that. But if the ships can exist in planar space in the third dimension, then that suggests that planar space has a third dimension as well. Also, in the anime, the attacking ships would appear at a slightly different altitude IIRC (been a while since I watched that scene), but for some reason none seemed to appear from above or below. Or does the space-time bubble somehow allow 3D things (such as ships) to exist in a 2D planar space...?

[/ QUOTE ]
Well I'm pulling shit outta my ass again, but in the anime the ship to ship battles only occur after the ships merge their planar space bubbles. So planar space for all we know could be 2D and when the bubbles merge together you return to 3D. Where's the CoTS Lore master when we need him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

fractured78

12-06-2004, 10:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Well I'm pulling shit outta my ass again

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Wear rubber gloves
2. Uhh, ewwwwwwwwww

perigee

12-06-2004, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:Then again, it was the characters that interested me in the series, not the spaceships /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]Amen to that. It's the ideas and issues the series explores that make it unique, not the hardware. I've had a hard time following the discussion since the geekspeak started. But everyone's entitled to talk about whatever interests them the most, so carry on.

12-07-2004, 12:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
However, from my recollection, the tactics used in the Battle of the Gosroth were rather two dimensional in the anime, ie the UM ships seemed to surround the Gosroth in a relatively 2D plane, no ships seeming to attack from above or below. Can't recall whether the Battle for the Aptic Gate was similar in this respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Planar Space (å¹³é?¢å®‡å®™/Heimen Uchuu/Fadh) literally means "flat surface universe". It is made up of two dimesion of space and one dimension of time. This means that objects from Normal Space cannot exist in Planar Space in their natural state. That's why ships need to generate a Space-Time Bubble (æ™‚ç©ºæ³¡/Jikuu Hou/Flasath) to protect themeselves while in Planar Space. Without this bubble, they would immediately be reduced to Space-Time Particles (æ™‚ç©ºç²’å*?/Jikuu Ryuushi/Spuflasath).

Btw, a Space-Time Particle has four times the mass of an electron and is the lowest level at which matter can exist in Planar Space.

Within each Space-Time Bubble, Normal Space (three dimension of space plus one dimension of time) is preserved. What this means to combat in Planar Space is that opposing ships approach each other on a two-dimensional surface. Once they merged their bubbles, combat takes place in three-dimensions space.

The reason why most combat looks two-dimension in the anime has to do with the way weapons are mounted on warships. Since the most powerful weapon -- electromagnetic cannons on scout cruisers, anti-proton cannon on assault ships -- are fixed forward/rearward weapons, you need to aim the bow/stern of your ship at the enemy in order to use them. The same is true for the enemy ship as well. Since both ships are manuevering to point their bow/stern at each other, when you observe their fight from a point some distance away, it's going to look like it's fought on a two-dimensional plane.

The anime actually tries to project some sense of three-dimension into combat. If you look at how Gothelauth maneuvered, Lexshue was swinging her ship both vertically and horizontally as she engage differnt targets. Also, when the Basroil and other assault ships engaged that United Mankind scout cruiser, they were surrounding it in a spherical formation. Certainly the cruiser's laser cannon were shooting in an elevated angle when they scored a hit on the Basroil. There's also the scene where the Abh assault ships executed a fly-by and blew up the bridge of a UM scout cruiser. They took a somewhat three-dimension vector to pull that off.

12-07-2004, 12:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Where's the CoTS Lore master when we need him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Scanning in my cel collection (http://world.std.com/~chadwick/Images/Cels/) for the Uber Cel thread in genearl anime group. Then took the rest of the day off watching my freshly arrived GitS, GitS II: Innocence, and Appleseed. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

You know, after all is said and done, I am an anime fan too. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

12-07-2004, 02:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
perigee said:
I've had a hard time following the discussion since the geekspeak started. But everyone's entitled to talk about whatever interests them the most, so carry on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the geekspeak dominated because nobody else asked any other kinds of questions. I'm more than happy to talk about the characters, the philosophies, or the politics of the story universe. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Here, since you wanted something different, I'll talk about the favorite drink of the Basroil crew, plus a few interesting secrets on some of the characters.

Lafiel
Tirec nomr, warmed and with a slice of ropec floating in it. In other words, warm peach juice with a slice of lemon floating in it. Like Jinto said, she does have rather unique tastebuds. According to Morioka, he made that up just because it sounded different, but his fans tried it out at home and it turned out to be excellent. Morioka finally got a taste of the concotion himself during his first official gathering with his fans.

Jinto
Surguc, preferably chilled. Iced coffee. /images/graemlins/happy.gif Jinto's favorite sport, Minchu, is some kind of mutated baseball game.

Sobach
Ssoic ala from the County of Yonii, with lots of sugar. Green tea, grown from the County of Yonii, and with lots of sugar. Sobach spent many years as the captain of her own merchant ship, before joining the Star Forces after war broke out. Rumors said she ran a most profitable business and was filthy rich. Her taste in drinks seemed to substantiate these rumors -- Sobach was the only person to specify a particular origin for her tea.

Like I said in another post, Sobach was male in the novels. The anime staff screwed up and Morioka didn't catch that until it's too late. The change puts a completely different feel to the scene where Sobach was drinking with Samson. In Morioka's mind and in the novels, it read like two old guys (Sobach is over 50) sharing a drink at the bar. In the anime, there's a different, almost amorous, air to that scene.

Ekuryua
Ssoic asa, chilled and with apple fragrance added to it. Black tea, iced and with apple fragrance.

The saying "beware of the quiet ones" is all too true on Ekuryua. She has a tendency to say some of the most out-of-the-blue lines in the whole series. ("I hate cats." "Why do you play with Diaho then?" "Because it's your cat." "What?" "If I said that, are you happy?") Most of those head-turning comments were directed at Jinto, who decided to chalk them all as "Ekuryua's way of telling a joke" and refused to think anything more of them. In BotS II, Lafiel got a taste of it herself though, when, after declaring that they were to abandon Jinto and think of him no more, Ekuryua challenged her decision with "Can you do that, Your Highness?" It was the first time Ekuryua ever called Lafiel as anything other than Captain, and her usage and timing of it was her way of showing displeasure at Lafiel's decision.

Ekuryua is not very good at dealing with ghosts. In a side story, little Ekuryua was lured to a "haunted" derelict ship. The other kids pulled a prank on her, and managed to get a whimper/small scream out of her before she passed out.

However, the biggest surprise about Ekuryua was revealed in BotS III. She is a speed-freak, addicted to high-g accelerations. If you let her pilot a ship, she will put it to maximum acceleration the moment she takes control of it, regardless of the passengers onboard. Sobach (who captained her own ship in BotS III) and her crew were Ekuryua's first victims, and Jinto followed suit not long after. Ekuryua also likes to hum some weird song in a semi off-beat note while she's high on speed, which Jinto finds both entrancing and frightening at the same time. When she had to slow down eventually, Ekuryua muttered some really filthy curse under her breath, and Jinto had to do a mental double-check to be sure he really heard what she said.

There was a round of promotions in BotS III, with Sobach being given the position of Chief-of-Staff in Atosuryua's battlegroup, Lafiel was given Sobach's ship (Sobach now outranks her), and Jinto also got a promotion in rank too. Under Sobach's adamant insistence, Ekuryua was given a 2-rank promotion and skipped the position of Senior Gunner (remember, Senior Gunner flies the ship in normal space) and becomes First Officer + Senior Navigator. Ekuryua is rather upset about this -- after all she knows she has good gunnery skills...

Unfortunately for Jinto, Ekuryua now outranks him in both rank and position, and she's not shy about abusing her rank privilege to get what she wants from him...

Samson
Draft beer. Samson retired from the Star Forces in BotS III and became Jinto's Master Retainer. He's now running Jinto's estate in Hyde System. Pavelia (who also retired) and Serenai's company are now working for Jinto as well.

It would seem that Samson has been written out of the plot and will no longer play any significant role.

Atosuryua
In BotS III, Atosuryua revealed that she owns a leather punching bag in her room. Whenever she's ticked off, she would beat the crap out of the punching bag. What's more, the punching bag has a name, and she changes that based on whoever earned her ire.

As a first-generation Abh, Atosuryua experienced a lot of Lander culture in addition to Abh ones. The first Baroness of Febdash, her grandmother, would told bedside stories to Atosuryua to put her to sleep. Those fairy tale stories led little Atosuryua to think that it's natural to have both a father and a mother, and it's a great tragedy to have only one parent. She actually mistook her own father as the husband to her grandmother. When Atosuryua found out she's "just" her father's daughter, she was crushed and cried for days.

Young Atosuryua eventually met her father's lover. She wanted to call her "mother" but the woman denied that request immediately, pointing out that Atosuryua is her father's daughter and nobody else's. But then the woman added that whatever Atosuryua calls her in her heart, she has no control over. And so Atosuryua's wish to have "two" parents was granted, in the Abh's fashion.

EDIT: Typo

gpn

12-07-2004, 10:36 AM

Thanks for all that great info, Ahjenta!

I'm one of those who loves Crest/Banner for the great cast of characters, so all this info is much appreciated. I especially enjoyed your section on Ekuryua as she is one of my favorite characters.

Have you heard of any plans for a Banner III anime?

Falcon_73

12-07-2004, 10:58 AM

I am currently in the process of watching BotS I. I get the feeling that the depth of this series will keep me interested for quite some time. I'm sure I will be watching all these more than once as it's difficult to pick up even half of what's going on the first time around.

Hopefully, this thread will be archived somewhere when the time comes. As a backup, I think I'd better print/save some of this information...

Thanks again

Natsume_Maya

12-07-2004, 12:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
Within each Space-Time Bubble, Normal Space (three dimension of space plus one dimension of time) is preserved. What this means to combat in Planar Space is that opposing ships approach each other on a two-dimensional surface. Once they merged their bubbles, combat takes place in three-dimensions space.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for confirming all of that. I understand Moriaka came up with the space-time bubble idea to make space combat more interesting, but something about the 2D nature of planar space still bugs me - I find it hard to conceptualise how the planar space dimension relates to the normal 3D space. Then again, I was never particularly good at 3D mathematics /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

Thanks for the additional info about the characters too - it helps flesh them out a bit more /images/graemlins/happy.gif

BTW, I'm currently slowly going through the R2 Crest of the Stars Special Edition DVD, which condenses the 13 episode series into 90 minutes - way too much is cut out IMO. For example, episode 1 of the series takes up about 3 minutes in the Special Edition. Since it's too rushed as a movie version, the only real reason for getting the DVD is to see the over 100 new cuts. However, at the point which I'm at (end of episode 4), the new cuts have pretty much been re-takes of scenes in the original series, eg:
- the scene where Lafiel is walking in the space station to meet up with Jinto for the first time has been redone to basically show people staring at her in surprise and fear (this scene is only a few seconds);
- pretty much the whole part of Jinto boarding the Gosroth and then the ship setting off has been redone (eg different camera angles, a bit of new CG etc) while dialogue seems pretty much the same (I haven't checked carefully).

wanfu2k1

12-07-2004, 12:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Where's the CoTS Lore master when we need him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Scanning in my cel collection (http://world.std.com/~chadwick/Images/Cels/) for the Uber Cel thread in genearl anime group. Then took the rest of the day off watching my freshly arrived GitS, GitS II: Innocence, and Appleseed. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

You know, after all is said and done, I am an anime fan too. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Damn didn't know Innocence was released already. Anyway good thing the stuff I was pulling outta my ass was actually accurate /images/graemlins/happy.gif

wanfu2k1

12-07-2004, 01:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:

Thanks for confirming all of that. I understand Moriaka came up with the space-time bubble idea to make space combat more interesting, but something about the 2D nature of planar space still bugs me - I find it hard to conceptualise how the planar space dimension relates to the normal 3D space. Then again, I was never particularly good at 3D mathematics /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure fi this is what you're asking but planar space is sorta like the sea and your a ship. You can travel freely in 2 dimensions in this case north/south east/west, but you can't dive or fly above the water. You can kinda call when the spaceships merger their space/time bubbles crashes. Once both object occupy the same space at the same time then they merge together, or in my sea example both ships crash into each other and sink /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

wanfu2k1

12-07-2004, 01:22 PM

Ahh so the picture that Jinto has with his friends when he was at school in the beginning of CotS, they were playing Minchu. So were the rules explained in the books?

Natsume_Maya

12-07-2004, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
Thanks for confirming all of that. I understand Moriaka came up with the space-time bubble idea to make space combat more interesting, but something about the 2D nature of planar space still bugs me - I find it hard to conceptualise how the planar space dimension relates to the normal 3D space. Then again, I was never particularly good at 3D mathematics /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure fi this is what you're asking but planar space is sorta like the sea and your a ship. You can travel freely in 2 dimensions in this case north/south east/west, but you can't dive or fly above the water. You can kinda call when the spaceships merger their space/time bubbles crashes. Once both object occupy the same space at the same time then they merge together, or in my sea example both ships crash into each other and sink /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, well, put it this way: the Gosroth was heading for Sufugnoff when it met the UM ships. All the ships were in planar space and fought it out in their time-space bubbles. But let's say there's another star system many light years above Sufugnoff and that there some ship enters planar space. If planar space is 2D, where is that ship relative to the Gosroth and UM ships many light years below? Is there an infinite number of layers of planar space? If so, how do ships seeking combat ensure they enter the same level as their opponents so that they can meet up? Is my conception of planar space completely wrong (entirely possible)...?

Orca

12-07-2004, 01:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:Hmm, well, put it this way: the Gosroth was heading for Sufugnoff when it met the UM ships. All the ships were in planar space and fought it out in their time-space bubbles. But let's say there's another star system many light years above Sufugnoff and that there some ship enters planar space. If planar space is 2D, where is that ship relative to the Gosroth and UM ships many light years below? Is there an infinite number of layers of planar space? If so, how do ships seeking combat ensure they enter the same level as their opponents so that they can meet up? Is my conception of planar space completely wrong (entirely possible)...?

[/ QUOTE ]

My understanding is that yours is off. Here's my interpretation (hopefully correct, but I'm sure Ahjenta can clear things up if I'm not!): Planar space is a separate dimension where there are only two dimensions + time (it's a flat plane, there is no height). Planar space is independant of real space, so planets only a short hop apart in Plane Space might be thousands of lightyears apart in real-space. Or vice versa.

If you've ever played Star Control 2 AKA the Ur-Quan Masters, think of Plane-Space as similar to the hyperspace depicted there - a completely separate map that has openings into regular space which are shortcuts to various points in realspace.

A space-time bubble is generated by the ships traveling through Plane-space, see above for what happens if you lose your bubble.

Now we get to the point I'm guessing and not exactly sure on: when two space-time bubbles merge, they appear at a random point along the edge of the bubble similar to what happens when passing through a Saudec? Or perhaps only the height dimension relative to each other is random? For certain their relative velocities are dropped to zero upon merging, though they can begin manuevering independantly using their reaction drives ("main engines").

12-07-2004, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
gpn said:
Thanks for all that great info, Ahjenta!

I'm one of those who loves Crest/Banner for the great cast of characters, so all this info is much appreciated. I especially enjoyed your section on Ekuryua as she is one of my favorite characters.

Have you heard of any plans for a Banner III anime?

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome. Ekuryua is one of my favorite characters too. I like her out-of-the-blue comments. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

As for the Banner III anime, there's no plan for it yet as far as I know. However, Banner IV novel is coming out in a week or two. Assuming it has enough material to sustain a TV season (Banner III doesn't), I don't see why they wouldn't animate it eventually.

One good indicator is if they ever do a "digest" version of Banner II. So far, they've always released a "digest" version of the previous season before starting a new one. I'll keep an eye on the official Seikai fansite. If I ever see a re-run schedule or news of a "digest" version, then I'll know something is up. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

12-07-2004, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Falcon_73 said:
I am currently in the process of watching BotS I. I get the feeling that the depth of this series will keep me interested for quite some time. I'm sure I will be watching all these more than once as it's difficult to pick up even half of what's going on the first time around.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, for BotS I, pay attention to the episode Jinto and Lafiel had dinner with Atosuryua. In an off-hand comment, Jinto said something that really struck a chord in Lafiel. She'll have a reply at the end of the series, to which Jinto couldn't come up with a proper response till the end of BotS II.

Enough teasers. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

12-07-2004, 02:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Ahh so the picture that Jinto has with his friends when he was at school in the beginning of CotS, they were playing Minchu. So were the rules explained in the books?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately no. The novels only made enough allusions about the game that you can figure out it's some kind of mutated baseball. One thing you do know is Jinto has a good throwing arm and aim out of playing Minchu. He put that to good use at the end of CotS III, lobbing grenades accurately over long distance while running at the same time.

12-07-2004, 03:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
I find it hard to conceptualise how the planar space dimension relates to the normal 3D space. Then again, I was never particularly good at 3D mathematics /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Like others have said, planar space is essentially a flat surface (has length and width, no height). Your position in planar space is independent of your position in normal space. Two star systems whose saudec are close together in the planar space may in fact be on opposite ends of the galaxy in normal space. Think of planar space as a different dimension or plane of existence, and the saudec as gateways that allow you to enter/leave it.

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, I'm currently slowly going through the R2 Crest of the Stars Special Edition DVD, which condenses the 13 episode series into 90 minutes - way too much is cut out IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I'm none too fond of the "digest" version of Crest. The 13-episodes already cut out a lot of materials -- it crammed 3 books into a single season, as oppposed to Banner I/II which are one book per season.

Now, the Crest digest stuffed 3 novels into 90 minutes, and that's just ridiculous. There is no way you can tell a semi-coherent story with the time alloted.

It is bad enough that large chunks of book II and almost all the scenes after Jinto and Lafiel's arrival at the capital in book III were cut to make Crest. For the digest, even some of the most famous "Crest moments" were sacrificed due to time constraints. I'd advise against picking this up unless you're trying to collect all the R2 DVDs.

[ QUOTE ]

the only real reason for getting the DVD is to see the over 100 new cuts. However, at the point which I'm at (end of episode 4), the new cuts have pretty much been re-takes of scenes in the original series,

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, most of the new cuts are just re-takes of scenes with new angles and CGs, essentially minor cosmetic changes. The only new material was an extension to the scene where Jinto and Lafiel met Spaurh after she picked them up.

After Spaurh thoroughly teases Lafiel about her black hair, she asked Jinto for instructions on removing the dye. Jinto hasn't thought about that, and so had to endure a bit of Spaurh theatrics (plus an increasingly uncomfortable stare from Lafiel). /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

In the novel, after they washed off the dye with some home-made chemicals, she asked him if there's any difference to her hair color. Jinto said no, to which Lafiel said it's become faded (remember, she really likes her hair complexion, not too dark, not too light, it's just right), and stressed that, while she's not accusing him or anything, she was disappointed at his poor memory. When Jinto retorted that it's because the difference is negligible, well... Lafiel won't talk to him for quite some time afterwards. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Now, if you really want to see new footages and new scenes, pick up the digest for Banner II. It's 120 min long, which gives it plenty of room to accomodate just one book. It also follows the chronology of the novel exactly. (The TV version re-arranged several scenes, and inserted an original episode). It redid a few scenes entirely to better capture the grandeur of a large fleet in action.

Also, it got rid of Spaurh talking to the Crown Prince in her bathrobe. That's just completely unprofessional (Spaurh may seem like she's fooling around all the time, but she is a competent and professional soldier). The new scene is much more faithful to what happened in the novel, with the addition that you see a nekkid Spaurh putting on her uniform before taking the call.

Nekkid Spaurh rocks. (I'm still looking for that cel). /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

12-07-2004, 03:36 PM

12-07-2004, 03:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
My understanding is that yours is off. Here's my interpretation (hopefully correct, but I'm sure Ahjenta can clear things up if I'm not!): Planar space is a separate dimension where there are only two dimensions + time (it's a flat plane, there is no height). Planar space is independant of real space, so planets only a short hop apart in Plane Space might be thousands of lightyears apart in real-space. Or vice versa.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're correct, sir. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Now we get to the point I'm guessing and not exactly sure on: when two space-time bubbles merge, they appear at a random point along the edge of the bubble similar to what happens when passing through a Saudec? Or perhaps only the height dimension relative to each other is random? For certain their relative velocities are dropped to zero upon merging, though they can begin manuevering independantly using their reaction drives ("main engines").

[/ QUOTE ]

Morioka never explained this aspect, but based on the descriptions he wrote for bubble merges, you preserve your relative position, but the height can be random. In other words, if you merge with a bubble from the front, you're going to see the bow of the other ship. Whether you're going to be above or below him, that's random.

wanfu2k1

12-07-2004, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
In the novel, after they washed off the dye with some home-made chemicals, she asked him if there's any difference to her hair color. Jinto said no, to which Lafiel said it's become faded (remember, she really likes her hair complexion, not too dark, not too light, it's just right), and stressed that, while she's not accusing him or anything, she was disappointed at his poor memory. When Jinto retorted that it's because the difference is negligible, well... Lafiel won't talk to him for quite some time afterwards. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Haha damn Lafiel sounds alot like a gf I once had /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif But Jinto gave a standard male response that is sure to get the woman to give you the silent treatment of a good while /images/graemlins/tongue.gif When a woman hints that something has changed you better give the right response /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Also, it got rid of Spaurh talking to the Crown Prince in her bathrobe. That's just completely unprofessional (Spaurh may seem like she's fooling around all the time, but she is a competent and professional soldier). The new scene is much more faithful to what happened in the novel, with the addition that you see a nekkid Spaurh putting on her uniform before taking the call.

Nekkid Spaurh rocks. (I'm still looking for that cel). /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
OH man why doesn't bandai release this condensed version I'd definately buy it /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

And you won't get a nekked Spaurh cel if I find it first /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Njr Scrawl

12-07-2004, 06:44 PM

I'd like to read a translation of (all novels but) that scene about Lafiel's hair, both in Crest condensed, and the book.

Having bought the R2 Banner condensed DVD...I'd like a fansub for subtitle translation too. Better yet Bandai licensing it /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Banner II condensed would probably be OK if it ever comes, so long as nonoe of the personal footage is cut.

Natsume_Maya

12-07-2004, 09:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Orca said:
If you've ever played Star Control 2 AKA the Ur-Quan Masters,

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope. When I grew up I stopped doing stuff like playing computer games and started watching Japanese cartoons instead /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
One thing you do know is Jinto has a good throwing arm and aim out of playing Minchu.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but he missed that young thief at the beginning of CotS /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Think of planar space as a different dimension or plane of existence, and the saudec as gateways that allow you to enter/leave it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, okay, it's the fact that planar space is entered via the sords that I missed. Thanks to everyone for their explanations.

[ QUOTE ]

Now, the Crest digest stuffed 3 novels into 90 minutes, and that's just ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though my understanding is that the Maria-sama ga Miteru anime probably fits one novel into each 22 minute episode /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
IIRC, most of the new cuts are just re-takes of scenes with new angles and CGs, essentially minor cosmetic changes. The only new material was an extension to the scene where Jinto and Lafiel met Spaurh after she picked them up.

[/ QUOTE ]

The back of the DVD suggests there's a new scene with the Empress as well.

[ QUOTE ]
In the novel, after they washed off the dye with some home-made chemicals, she asked him if there's any difference to her hair color. Jinto said no, to which Lafiel said it's become faded (remember, she really likes her hair complexion, not too dark, not too light, it's just right), and stressed that, while she's not accusing him or anything, she was disappointed at his poor memory. When Jinto retorted that it's because the difference is negligible, well... Lafiel won't talk to him for quite some time afterwards. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That gets me thinking: why do you think Jinto is attracted to Lafiel? Is it simply the circumstances of their meeting (her being the first Abh he'd met, roughly being the same age, etc)? Jinto seems like a pretty level headed guy to me, not someone to be impressed by a title (though it's understandable he'd be embarrassed at not recognising an Abriel). But to me Jinto seems to worship Lafiel a bit. I'm not sure what attractive qualities she's got - she seems a bit arrogant to me.

[ QUOTE ]
Now, if you really want to see new footages and new scenes, pick up the digest for Banner II. It's 120 min long, which gives it plenty of room to accomodate just one book. It also follows the chronology of the novel exactly. (The TV version re-arranged several scenes, and inserted an original episode). It redid a few scenes entirely to better capture the grandeur of a large fleet in action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds good. Got the DVD on order, waiting to ship at the end of the week /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it got rid of Spaurh talking to the Crown Prince in her bathrobe. That's just completely unprofessional (Spaurh may seem like she's fooling around all the time, but she is a competent and professional soldier). The new scene is much more faithful to what happened in the novel, with the addition that you see a nekkid Spaurh putting on her uniform before taking the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though you could argue even that new scene would be strange protocol. The Crown Prince of the Abh Empire is calling her. Personally I would think the appropriate protocol should be:
- upon the Prince learning that she's not immediately available to take his call, he should "hang up";
- once Spaurh has gotten dressed, she should "ring" him back.
Seems strange to me that an Abh would make the Crown Prince wait for her to get dressed - they should wait for him, not vice versa. But then again, she is a Spaurh - she may find it amusing to make an Abriel wait /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

BTW, Ahjenta, I asked this question on the forum earlier this year, but you weren't around. I drew a pic and wrote in Ath "FraudÃ©c Spaurh" - is that correct? I think I'm right that the title comes before name in that situation. But I understand Baronh uses declensions - in that case is the word "Spaurh" modified...? Am I making any sense...? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
And you won't get a nekked Spaurh cel if I find it first /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I get the feeling what few cels there are of that scene have already been snapped up.

wanfu2k1

12-08-2004, 12:19 PM

You never know some hard luck cel collector might put it up on YJ auctions. vigilance is key to a good cel collector /images/graemlins/happy.gif

12-09-2004, 06:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
One thing you do know is Jinto has a good throwing arm and aim out of playing Minchu.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but he missed that young thief at the beginning of CotS /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Didn't happen in the novel. The whole robbery scene does not exist. Ku Dorin leaves, and right after that Lafiel shows up. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

Now, the Crest digest stuffed 3 novels into 90 minutes, and that's just ridiculous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though my understanding is that the Maria-sama ga Miteru anime probably fits one novel into each 22 minute episode /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt those Mari-mite fans who have actually read the novels are happy about this fact. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

The back of the DVD suggests there's a new scene with the Empress as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, that's the scene you see in ep. 1 of Banner I, where Ramaj told Jinto about the loss of Hyde System.

[ QUOTE ]

That gets me thinking: why do you think Jinto is attracted to Lafiel? Is it simply the circumstances of their meeting (her being the first Abh he'd met, roughly being the same age, etc)? Jinto seems like a pretty level headed guy to me, not someone to be impressed by a title (though it's understandable he'd be embarrassed at not recognising an Abriel). But to me Jinto seems to worship Lafiel a bit. I'm not sure what attractive qualities she's got - she seems a bit arrogant to me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Jinto's attraction to Lafiel is rooted on many levels. At the most basic one, there is simple physical attraction -- Lafiel is considered pretty even by Abh standards; to Jinto she is of legendary beauty. He can't help but be a little smitten by her looks.

Lafiel's personality is also a factor. She carries herself with an air of confidence and convicton, and pursues her goals with single-minded focus. Against the typically laid-back and sometimes indecisive Jinto, Lafiel has a certain amount of influence by sheer force of personality, like the way she won his consent to let her tag along at the end of Banner II.

As you suggested, the circumstances of their meeting has something to do with it as well. Like many Landers, Jinto heard a myriad of tales and rumors about Abhs, both good and bad. Despite spending seven years in a citizen prepartory school, he had no idea what to expect from the Abhs. Meeting Lafiel (and Lexshue) dispelled most of those rumors and put the Abhs on the "good" side of the scale in his mind. Remember, Jinto himself wasn't sure if he wanted to be an Abh and felt put upon by his father to be the next Count of Hyde. So he was really glad to see the Abhs are a decent people through his contacts with Lafiel. On top of that, the two are of comparable age and Lafiel immediately closed their gaps by granting Jinto the priviledge of addressing each other by their first name, as well as being open about herself (telling him her birth-secret and such), which allowed Jinto to feel much more comfortable and closer with her than he would normally be for someone he'd just met.

Jinto also sees a similiarity in the circumstances of their lives. They're both isolated from "common people" by their social status, making them friendless and often the subject of stares and gawks. Neither really has a choice in how they can live their lives -- Lafiel even less than Jinto. They are both ordained to spend years in military service and then shoulder the responsiblity of governance. All things considered, even though Jinto and Lafiel are of different race and upbringing, as well as in temperaments, they share a lot of common grounds, and Jinto recognizes that.

One significant aspect which is sometimes overlooked is how Lafiel acts as an anchor and force of stability in Jinto's life. It had turned upside down the moment Hyde System was conquered by the Abhs. Before he could even understood what happened, he was disowned by his parents (Teal and Lina), shipped away to an alien world (remember his remarks about understanding the feelings of animals being shipped to a zoo), and was told to prepare for a radically different life, one not of his choosing.

In the process, Jinto had lost his family, his friends, his home and country, and even his identity. He was completely detached from everything, and it wasn't until he met Lafiel that he began to remake those ties, now with the Abhs. She is the first real friend he has since Martine; she is also his guide to the world of Abhs and their way of life. Her single-minded focus and drive in following her prescribed life is reassuring to the uncertainty of his. While Jinto knows where he stands on critical issues and will stay his ground, he does need a little nudge on the little things, and Lafiel provides him with that impetus. Ultimately, Jinto is simply glad that, if he's destined to give his freedom to the Empire, he gets to cast his lot with Lafiel. (He even says it out loud in the epilogue of CotS/end of ep. 1 in BotS I.)

Last but not least, there's the whole post-Gothelauth sequence of events to consider. The two were forced to rely on each other for survival, and to trust the other person's judgement completely. Friendship and more tends to grow when two persons put their lives in each others's hands. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Also, it got rid of Spaurh talking to the Crown Prince in her bathrobe. The new scene is much more faithful to what happened in the novel, with the addition that you see a nekkid Spaurh putting on her uniform before taking the call.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though you could argue even that new scene would be strange protocol. The Crown Prince of the Abh Empire is calling her. Personally I would think the appropriate protocol should be:
- upon the Prince learning that she's not immediately available to take his call, he should "hang up";
- once Spaurh has gotten dressed, she should "ring" him back.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whether he waits for Spaurh to call back or waits for Spaurh to appear on screen, he's still waiting. That was an urgent and critical call -- it involves relocating Spaurh's fleet in time for the coming battle. The Crown Prince isn't going anywhere until he gets Spaurh to do what he wants. So he might as well leave the channel open instead of going through the motion of establishing communication again.

Besides, as an Abriel, he does enjoy making a Spaurh jumps to his tune. In the novel, he was chuckling inside upon seeing that Spaurh had undone her braid in her down-time and was obviously displeased about being seen in such state. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, Ahjenta, I asked this question on the forum earlier this year, but you weren't around. I drew a pic and wrote in Ath "FraudÃ©c Spaurh" - is that correct?

[/ QUOTE ]

The other way round -- it should be Spaurh FraudÃ©c instead. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
And you won't get a nekked Spaurh cel if I find it first /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I get the feeling what few cels there are of that scene have already been snapped up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I saw one in someone's private collection. I don't have the link anymore, but IIRC, said person paid on the order of a thousand dollar or so for that cel.

12-09-2004, 06:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
You never know some hard luck cel collector might put it up on YJ auctions. vigilance is key to a good cel collector /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you see the latest offerings on YJ? Those are too expensive for me, but wow they are nice.

12-09-2004, 07:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Haha damn Lafiel sounds alot like a gf I once had /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif But Jinto gave a standard male response that is sure to get the woman to give you the silent treatment of a good while /images/graemlins/tongue.gif When a woman hints that something has changed you better give the right response /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Jinto has gotten much better at figuring out Lafiel. By the time Banner I rolls around, he's able to handle a delicate situation and nudge her in the right direction without earning her ire.

What's interesting is how much tolerance Lafiel has for Jinto. In Banner III, when Jinto thought the Empire was going to orbital bombard Martine, he lashed out at Lafiel. To my surprise she puts up with his unfair accusations, let him vent his frustrations, and then talked sense back into him.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Nekkid Spaurh rocks. (I'm still looking for that cel). /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
And you won't get a nekked Spaurh cel if I find it first /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well now, I guess it boils down to who checks YJ (and other sites) more often now, doesn't it? /images/graemlins/devil.gif

wanfu2k1

12-09-2004, 07:38 PM

Heh actually to tell you the truth I haven't check YJ in a couple of months. Christmas time i usually a bad time for my finances so I don't need more pressures /images/graemlins/wink.gif Well I know at least a couple of people crazy enough to spend $1k on a cel /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Well you get the feeling Lafiel has the same feelings for Jinto as Jinto has for her. How else could you explain some of the things Lafiel does in Bots II

12-09-2004, 10:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
I'd like to read a translation of (all novels but) that scene about Lafiel's hair, both in Crest condensed, and the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Natsume Maya can do the anime version of it -- that's your homework assignment for the week. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

As for the novel...

Disclaimer: I'm not a professional translator. So please pardon any mistakes I made.

Spaurh had just thoroughly teased Lafiel about her clothings and hair color, at Jinto's expense no less.

"Ho-hohohohoho," Spaurh brushed back her white throat laughing, and looked at Jinto's eyes sincerely for the first time. "However, it's true that I've taken a liking to you, my lord (Ã¯arlucec). When you become an administrative officer (lodaÃ¯rh sazoÃ¯r), please come immediately and fight by my side."

"Instead of talking about the future, grand duchess (nimh)," for some reason Lafiel interjected in a hurry. "Won't you accomodate me with a set of uniforms (sairhinec)? I'd like to remove my hair color as well."

"The uniform (sairhinec) will be provided immediately. However, how do we remove the color of your highness's hair? Would a bath be sufficient for your needs?"

"A bath didn't wash it away."

"Then, what should we do?"

"Well, I don't know," Lafiel looked at Jinto. So did Spaurh.

Jinto found himself at a loss, "Speaking of which, it was explained in the instructions... But it was discarded you see..."

The two Abh women continued to stare at him.

"Er," Jinto suggested, "Since that dye is commonly used in Clasbueil, if we ask someone down there..."

"Just now, a frightening thought reared its head from somewhere." Spaurh shuddered, "The officers (lodaÃ¯rh) from our glorius Futune (FtunÃ©c), forcing a landing on a surface world (nahainec) that is still under enemy control. Then, elminating enemy resistance, their uniform (sairhinec) showered in blood, they captured a cowering planetry subject (soss), and asked him thus, 'Hey you, do you know anything about removing hair dyes?' Oh, no. The dignity of Futune (FtunÃ©c) would plummet to the ground."

"I guess so," Jinto slumped his shoulder. Even though he had completely forgotten about it after being rescued, enemy forces were still active on the surface of Calsbueil.

"Allow me to suggest this. Your highness, grant us one strand of your royal hair. I'll send it to the pharmaceutical branch (creuriac) for analysis. They will create a proper solvent based on that. Is that satisfactory?"

Lafiel agreed. The mood then turn solemn as she handed over the ship's log from Gothelauth. There's a moment of silence as every officer saluted it immediately. Then a Kufadis whose handsome feature was somehow marred by deep weariness presented himself to accept the log. The scene ended with Spaurh commenting on Lafiel shooting Jinto's shoulder for dying her hair black, just like the anime.

A couple scenes later, Jinto and Lafiel were sent off on their way to the capital. Jinto found Lafiel waiting for him in the transfer shuttle...

"Hi, you've returned to your old self," Jinto greeted Lafiel cheerfully. Even though the black hair and "one-piece" look was always meant to be a disguise, looking at her the blue-black hair and uniform (sairhinec) somehow seemed more fitting.

"You really think so?"

"Well, of course..." Sensing a dangerous edge in Lafiel's eyes and her tone of voice, Jinto became hesistant.

"Look carefully," Lafiel took her hair in her hands, "The color has faded." Now that she mentioned it, the hair color had become lighter indeed, approaching that of basic blue.

"This is a beautiful color too," Jinto cajoled. He was about to give a good reason for it, when he realized it was not necessary. They were in a situation where they had no choice but to dye her hair. Besides, there was no reason why they had rushed to remove the hair dye. If they had taken their time in the analysis, they probably would have created a solvent that would not cause any side effects.

"There is no reason to blame you," Lafiel said, "I'm just disappointed in your memory, that's all."

"But the difference isn't that great to begin with!"

Even if Lafiel was not angry beforehand, those words had sealed it. The Princess (lartnÃ©c) suddenly turned away, and until breakfast the next morning, would not acknowledge Jinto again.

12-09-2004, 10:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Well you get the feeling Lafiel has the same feelings for Jinto as Jinto has for her. How else could you explain some of the things Lafiel does in Bots II

[/ QUOTE ]

Well I don't doubt Lafiel's feelings about Jinto. I was just surprised she's willing to put up with him tearing at her when she doesn't deserve it. She doesn't take any BS from anybody after all.

12-10-2004, 07:00 AM

See thread (http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=775582).

Falcon_73

12-10-2004, 10:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
Well, for BotS I, pay attention to the episode Jinto and Lafiel had dinner with Atosuryua. In an off-hand comment, Jinto said something that really struck a chord in Lafiel. She'll have a reply at the end of the series, to which Jinto couldn't come up with a proper response till the end of BotS II.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was looking for it, but I guess I still missed it. I think I remember her reaction at some point, but I can't remember what Jinto said. I guess I'd better play that scene again...

I'm 7 episodes in now and am trying to figure out where the Scout Cruisers have gone. I can surmise that they aren't used with Assault Ships, but I think I would have seen some by now as a number of battle groups have been shown. Perhaps the newer designs have changed to the point that I don't recognize them now, but it has only been a few years. I'm looking for the 4 pronged ships for lack of a better technical description. I saw earlier in this thread that the Gosroth was the last of its kind, but the Futune and some others looked similar. Perhaps there were some in the first episode of BotS, but a lot was happening there.

There's probably a website somewhere that shows the different types of ships. Speaking of which, there's so much information in this thread that I think it would make a nice website or page at least.

wanfu2k1

12-10-2004, 01:16 PM

Thanks for the translation Ajenta. Heh poor Jinto if he just read the instructions he wouldn't have been in the dog house /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Once again when a woman asks you if anythings different, you better take a good long look and find out exactly what's different /images/graemlins/wink.gif

12-10-2004, 05:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Falcon_73 said:
I was looking for it, but I guess I still missed it. I think I remember her reaction at some point, but I can't remember what Jinto said. I guess I'd better play that scene again...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, don't worry if you can't find it. You'll know what Jinto said by the end, because Lafiel is going to refer to it.

[ QUOTE ]

I'm 7 episodes in now and am trying to figure out where the Scout Cruisers have gone. Perhaps the newer designs have changed to the point that I don't recognize them now, but it has only been a few years. I'm looking for the 4 pronged ships for lack of a better technical description.

[/ QUOTE ]

The new Kau-class scout cruiser abandoned the 4-prong design in favor of an internal "hatch-like" design where the cannons are encompassed by the hull. No, this is not mentioned in the novels, the change is all the anime staff's doing.

You should be looking for ships that look like this (http://usi.main.jp/Data/Musium/Garagekit/Raashukau_2.jpg).

[ QUOTE ]

There's probably a website somewhere that shows the different types of ships.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, this is what they used for the PC game (http://www.gainax.co.jp/soft/seikai/essay01_11.html). There are some discrepencies with the anime though so take that with a grain of salt.

From top to bottom:

1) Lauth-class scout crusier
2) Kau-class scout crusier
3) Garum-class assault ship
4) Roil-class assault ship
5) Hejue-class escort
6) Zolf-class battleship, mine-firing mode (different from anime)
7) Kutil-class transport (different from anime)
8) Kov-class attack ship (introduced in BotS III novel)

Bonus: Someone built a Gothelauth out of LEGO (http://www.mars.dti.ne.jp/~leyphath/seikai/gothelautr.html).

12-10-2004, 05:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Thanks for the translation Ajenta. Heh poor Jinto if he just read the instructions he wouldn't have been in the dog house /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Once again when a woman asks you if anythings different, you better take a good long look and find out exactly what's different /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hehehehe, that's Jinto's life story for ya -- victim of circumstances. /images/graemlins/devil.gif

Natsume_Maya

12-11-2004, 01:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
On top of that, the two are of comparable age and Lafiel immediately closed their gaps by granting Jinto the priviledge of addressing each other by their first name, as well as being open about herself (telling him her birth-secret and such), which allowed Jinto to feel much more comfortable and closer with her than he would normally be for someone he'd just met.

[/ QUOTE ]

It would've been interesting if the audience were introduced to some of Lafiel's friends, to contrast her behaviour when it comes to Jinto.

[ QUOTE ]
Besides, as an Abriel, he does enjoy making a Spaurh jumps to his tune. In the novel, he was chuckling inside upon seeing that Spaurh had undone her braid in her down-time and was obviously displeased about being seen in such state. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

:D

[ QUOTE ]

The other way round -- it should be Spaurh FraudÃ©c instead. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Argh, thanks. I'll change that when I get the time.

[ QUOTE ]
Did you see the latest offerings on YJ? Those are too expensive for me, but wow they are nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a look at those. Is that about the going rate for a good Seikai cel? Way out of my budget in any event.

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
I'd like to read a translation of (all novels but) that scene about Lafiel's hair, both in Crest condensed, and the book.

[/ QUOTE ]

Natsume Maya can do the anime version of it -- that's your homework assignment for the week. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What the?! /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

I wouldn't be able to compare the anime version but for the assistance of Ahjenta's translation. Thankfully, the dialogue in the anime appears to follow the novel very closely. There's no point in my attempting a complete translation of the anime version, because I think the differences are more likely to arise due to choice of English words that Ahjenta and myself might make (eg how to render the polite speech of the characters) rather than any significant differences in the Japanese.

Basically, the added scene in the anime as is follows:

Lafiel: Typical Spoor.
[R1 Bandai translation.]

Then follows the passage of dialogue translated by Ahjenta from the novels, with the only real differences I noticed being that:
- instead of starting "Instead of talking about the future, grand duchess..." Lafiel starts with "More to point, Grand Duchess..." (well, she says "soreyori" but I thought "more to point" would fit the context better);
- the last sentence by Spoor in the passage "Is that satisfactory?" is also left out.

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
"Instead of talking about the future, grand duchess (nimh)," for some reason Lafiel interjected in a hurry. "Won't you accomodate me with a set of uniforms (sairhinec)? I'd like to remove my hair color as well."

"The uniform (sairhinec) will be provided immediately. However, how do we remove the color of your highness's hair? Would a bath be sufficient for your needs?"

"A bath didn't wash it away."

"Then, what should we do?"

"Well, I don't know," Lafiel looked at Jinto. So did Spaurh.

Jinto found himself at a loss, "Speaking of which, it was explained in the instructions... But it was discarded you see..."

The two Abh women continued to stare at him.

"Er," Jinto suggested, "Since that dye is commonly used in Clasbueil, if we ask someone down there..."

"Just now, a frightening thought reared its head from somewhere." Spaurh shuddered, "The officers (lodaÃ¯rh) from our glorius Futune (FtunÃ©c), forcing a landing on a surface world (nahainec) that is still under enemy control. Then, elminating enemy resistance, their uniform (sairhinec) showered in blood, they captured a cowering planetry subject (soss), and asked him thus, 'Hey you, do you know anything about removing hair dyes?' Oh, no. The dignity of Futune (FtunÃ©c) would plummet to the ground."

"I guess so," Jinto slumped his shoulder. Even though he had completely forgotten about it after being rescued, enemy forces were still active on the surface of Calsbueil.

"Allow me to suggest this. Your highness, grant us one strand of your royal hair. I'll send it to the pharmaceutical branch (creuriac) for analysis. They will create a proper solvent based on that. Is that satisfactory?"

[/ QUOTE ]

Edit: In the anime, instead of the last lines by Spoor, she says something along the lines of "Allow me to suggest this. Let us borrow one strand of Your Highness' hair; it will be analysed and a solution/medicine/solvent prepared."

Then Spoor says: "After that, the Hereditary Count needs treatment."
This line was changed from the line that Bandai translated as "Anyway, we must first treat the Count's injury." (Here as well, the differences are more to do with my choice of words and the Bandai translator's choice of words. In terms of Japanese, the main differences are that the original version was "Anyway, first..." and the digest version was changed to "After that...").

From then on, we return to the original dialogue with the line "I'll have someone take you to the medical room."

12-11-2004, 05:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
It would've been interesting if the audience were introduced to some of Lafiel's friends, to contrast her behaviour when it comes to Jinto.

[/ QUOTE ]

I honestly don't know if Lafiel has any real friends besides Jinto. In the six books + one short story I've read, the only people she ever mentioned/thought about are her family (including Lexshue), Jinto, and the Head Lady-in-waiting assigned to her (she's almost like a nanny to Lafiel). Well, Lafiel also mentioned the Head Gardener from her family estate once. But that was part of a story she used to illustrate a point to Jinto.

Anyways, if I am to venture a guess, I'd say Lafiel among "friends" would act more or less the way she is among the Basroil crew. In particular the scenes between her and Sobach/Samson in Banner II. She won't put on any airs or anything, but there's an invisible yet definite gap between her and the others.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Did you see the latest offerings on YJ? Those are too expensive for me, but wow they are nice.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had a look at those. Is that about the going rate for a good Seikai cel? Way out of my budget in any event.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, those cels are priced that high because they are from rare characters (Lafiel's family don't get much screen time, and Lexshue is extremely popular among Seikai fans), or from famous scenes (Lafiel in tears is the hightlight of 6 novels so far). I tried bidding for them in the end (I couldn't resist) but got clobbered. I'm still not sure if I should be relieved or disappointed.

Typical Seikai cels goes a lot cheaper however. Right now there is a decent shot of Jinto in civilian clothes from Crest, with background, and it's under Y4,000 with no bidders.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
Natsume Maya can do the anime version of it -- that's your homework assignment for the week. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What the?! /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Gotta get you started on improving your Japanese somehow. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]

- the last sentence by Spoor in the passage "Is that satisfactory?" is also left out.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the novel, Spaurh added ã?“ã‚Œã?§ã?¯ï¼Ÿ(korede wa?) after she made her proposal. Normally I'd translate it as "How about it?" or "What do you think?" but since Spaurh has been using polite (sometimes too polite... I suspect she's mocking) speech when talking to Lafiel, I used "Is that satisfactory?" in this case to convey a similar nuance in English.

Falcon_73

12-11-2004, 06:38 PM

Thank you for the links, Ahjenta! I can recognize a fair number of the Kau class cruisers now. It looks like the empire has produced a boat load of those in just 3 years. It's hard to imagine so many being produced and that older ships would be off the front line so soon. Then I remembered what we (the U.S.) built in a few years back in the day...

There's quite a lot of information there that I can practice my Japanese on as well. However, it's become evident that I haven't been studying as hard as I should be of late. I won't be reading novels any time soon that's for sure. I think I better get more serious about reading the manga (different series) I have for starters.

I don't want to burden you with translations (and this isn't really the place for it), but there's a line about Spoor in the game character descriptions that's just over my head:

[ QUOTE ]

ä¸¹å¿µã?«çµ?ã?„ä¸Šã?’ã?Ÿè’¼ç‚Žè‰²ã?®é«ªã€?<ã‚¹ãƒ?ã ƒ¼ãƒ«ã?®èµ¤çž³>ã?¨å‘¼ã?°ã‚Œã‚‹åˆ‡ã‚Œé•·ã?®èµ¤ã?„çž ³ã?¨æµ?ã‚Œã‚‹ã‚ˆã?†ã?ªè’¼ç‚Žè‰²ã?®çœ‰æ¯›ã‚’æŒ?ã?¤ã €‚

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is my feeble attempt to translate:

With her pale blue hair arranged with diligence, Spoor is able to call on (her subordinates) and hold them (captive) with her piercing red eyes and flowing blue eyebrows.

The web translations on something like this are laughable and did little to assist me. I see ã?¨ used a lot after quotes, but I haven't seen < > used often and don't know what it signifies vs. ã€Œã€€ã€?

I can't thank you enough for all this, Ahjenta.

12-11-2004, 10:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Falcon_73 said:
It looks like the empire has produced a boat load of those in just 3 years. It's hard to imagine so many being produced and that older ships would be off the front line so soon. Then I remembered what we (the U.S.) built in a few years back in the day...

[/ QUOTE ]

Operation Mirage Flame was the Empire's attempt to seize the initiative of the war in a single stroke. The goal was to draw out and destroy significant portions of the Three Nations Alliance fleet while cutting off a large swarth of territory from United Mankind and reduce the pocket later. This the Empire accomplished.

To that end, the Empire committed their latest and best ships, fresh out of the production line. That's why you see so many Kau-class in the fleets. In Banner II, you'll see Trife's reserve fleet is still using the older Bilsch-class scout crusier.

The novels show you how the Empire mobilizes for the war -- cranking out new ships from all the yards, recalling all reserve officers, massively increasing enlistment from the surface worlds, and finally promoting officers who has prior experience with merchant vessels. It took 3-4 years for the Empire to shift into total war footing.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't want to burden you with translations (and this isn't really the place for it), but there's a line about Spoor in the game character descriptions that's just over my head:
[ QUOTE ]

ä¸¹å¿µã?«çµ?ã?„ä¸Šã?’ã?Ÿè’¼ç‚Žè‰²ã?®é«ªã€?<ã‚¹ãƒ?ã ƒ¼ãƒ«ã?®èµ¤çž³>ã?¨å‘¼ã?°ã‚Œã‚‹åˆ‡ã‚Œé•·ã?®èµ¤ã?„çž ³ã?¨æµ?ã‚Œã‚‹ã‚ˆã?†ã?ªè’¼ç‚Žè‰²ã?®çœ‰æ¯›ã‚’æŒ?ã?¤ã €‚

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

"Her carefully braided hair is the color of blue flame. She has long-slitted red eyes known as 'The Red Eyes of Spaurh' and flowing, blue flamed colored eyebrows."

(I changed the sentence structure slightly so it reads better in English.)

The "Red Eyes of Spaurh" (Ciloemh PÃ¯ana Spaurr) is the family trait (å®¶å¾´/Ã¼aritec) of the Sparuh clan. This is the physical attribute shared by all members of an Abh clan. For Spaurhs, their pupils are always deep red like that of a dying red giant star. This is one of the most famous Ã¼aritec in the Empire.

Another famous Ã¼aritec is of course, "Abriel's Ears" (ã‚¢ãƒ–ãƒªã‚¢ãƒ«ã?®è€³/NuÃ¯c AblÃ¯arsec). Other examples include "Well-developed Canine" (ç™ºé?”ã?—ã?ŸçŠ¬æ*¯), or the curly hair of a "Bibothec's Crown" (ãƒ“ãƒœãƒ¼ã‚¹ã?®å†*).

[ QUOTE ]

I see ã?¨ used a lot after quotes, but I haven't seen < > used often and don't know what it signifies vs. ã€Œã€€ã€?

[/ QUOTE ]

ã€Œ ã€?is used like " " to indicate words that are spoken by a person.
< > is used like " " to indicate special name/term, or as italics.

Example:

1) Assualt Ship Basoril çª?æ’ƒè‰¦ï¼œãƒ?ã‚¹ãƒ*ãƒ¼ãƒ«ï¼ž
2) The United Mankind ï¼œäººé¡žçµ±å?ˆä½“ï¼ž
3) Gate/Saudec ï¼œé–€ï¼ž

[ QUOTE ]

I can't thank you enough for all this, Ahjenta.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're welcome. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Natsume_Maya

12-12-2004, 12:53 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
I honestly don't know if Lafiel has any real friends besides Jinto. In the six books + one short story I've read, the only people she ever mentioned/thought about are her family (including Lexshue), Jinto, and the Head Lady-in-waiting assigned to her (she's almost like a nanny to Lafiel).

[/ QUOTE ]

In the anime, IIRC Lafiel mentions that her friends still address her properly, but she didn't elaborate /images/graemlins/sad.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Well, those cels are priced that high because they are from rare characters (Lafiel's family don't get much screen time, and Lexshue is extremely popular among Seikai fans)

[/ QUOTE ]

I noticed the set of 4 cels (Lafiel and family, including closeup of Lexshue in Birth) didn't attract a bid.

[ QUOTE ]

In the novel, Spaurh added ã?“ã‚Œã?§ã?¯ï¼Ÿ(korede wa?) after she made her proposal. Normally I'd translate it as "How about it?" or "What do you think?" but since Spaurh has been using polite (sometimes too polite... I suspect she's mocking) speech when talking to Lafiel, I used "Is that satisfactory?" in this case to convey a similar nuance in English.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the anime, she just finishes the sentence about analysis of the hair "...sase masho" ã?•ã?›ã?¾ã?—ã‚‡. But now that I check that bit, I notice that I need to correct my previous post about the anime version.

12-12-2004, 01:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
In the anime, IIRC Lafiel mentions that her friends still address her properly, but she didn't elaborate /images/graemlins/sad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

She said that in the novels too, and that's the only time she even mentioned she has "friends." She hasn't said anything about those "friends" in the next 5 books. Which is why I suspect they aren't really her "friends" but more like classmates/associates.

[ QUOTE ]

I noticed the set of 4 cels (Lafiel and family, including closeup of Lexshue in Birth) didn't attract a bid.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought about bidding on that set, but decided I really don't care enough about Lafiel's father and brother to waste Y40,000 on them. The Lafiel cel is rather weak, and there are better shots of Lexshue from Birth.

wanfu2k1

12-14-2004, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:

I honestly don't know if Lafiel has any real friends besides Jinto. In the six books + one short story I've read, the only people she ever mentioned/thought about are her family (including Lexshue), Jinto, and the Head Lady-in-waiting assigned to her (she's almost like a nanny to Lafiel). Well, Lafiel also mentioned the Head Gardener from her family estate once. But that was part of a story she used to illustrate a point to Jinto.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's the same feeling I got from the anime. Lafiel really doesn't have any friends. Jinto is the only person who actually calls her by her first name.
[ QUOTE ]

Well, those cels are priced that high because they are from rare characters (Lafiel's family don't get much screen time, and Lexshue is extremely popular among Seikai fans), or from famous scenes (Lafiel in tears is the hightlight of 6 novels so far). I tried bidding for them in the end (I couldn't resist) but got clobbered. I'm still not sure if I should be relieved or disappointed.

Typical Seikai cels goes a lot cheaper however. Right now there is a decent shot of Jinto in civilian clothes from Crest, with background, and it's under Y4,000 with no bidders.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's because all the CoTS fanboys demand space elf goodness /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Heh if it wasn't around Christmas I might have thought about getting some cels /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

12-15-2004, 04:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
That's the same feeling I got from the anime. Lafiel really doesn't have any friends. Jinto is the only person who actually calls her by her first name.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think both her birth status and her personality are working against Lafiel here. Protocals dictate that everybody treats a member of the Imperial family from a respectful distance. Meanwhile Lafile herself is raised to live up to the demands and expectations of an Imperial, so she would never breach that distance on her own. It really takes a colossal fumble like Jinto's to open an opportunity for her.

[ QUOTE ]

That's because all the CoTS fanboys demand space elf goodness /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Heh if it wasn't around Christmas I might have thought about getting some cels /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, I'm perfectly happy with a Lexshue, Spaurh, Atosuryua, or Ekuryua cel. I like them as much as I like Lafiel. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

wanfu2k1

12-16-2004, 01:22 PM

Actually I wouldn't mind having any of the CoTS girls either /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

michaelwb

12-16-2004, 01:35 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Actually I wouldn't mind having any of the CoTS girls either /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So I'm guessing the line for the CoTS girls is forming here. /images/graemlins/devil.gif

wanfu2k1

12-16-2004, 07:08 PM

Just as long as we're ahead of Ajenta, becuase there won't be any left after him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

michaelwb

12-17-2004, 08:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Just as long as we're ahead of Ajenta, becuase there won't be any left after him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. I've already arranged a trail of rare and valuable CoTS collectors items to lead him away....

Njr Scrawl

12-17-2004, 08:43 AM

I'll take Sansom's (engineering?) drinking mate. A bit butch but she's the most fun.

12-17-2004, 12:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Just as long as we're ahead of Ajenta, becuase there won't be any left after him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmph. That's it. No more answering Seiaki questions for you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

12-17-2004, 12:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
michaelwb said:
Yup. I've already arranged a trail of rare and valuable CoTS collectors items to lead him away....

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean a bunch of Sekai female character cels? That's about the only thing I'm missing at this point. /images/graemlins/devil.gif

12-17-2004, 12:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
I'll take Sansom's (engineering?) drinking mate. A bit butch but she's the most fun.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sobach is all yours. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

wanfu2k1

12-20-2004, 07:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Just as long as we're ahead of Ajenta, becuase there won't be any left after him /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmph. That's it. No more answering Seiaki questions for you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
/images/graemlins/tongue.gif I'd just ask michaelwb to post my questions /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Hey how about turning this back to a discussion instead of who's getting which CoTS girl /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

12-21-2004, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Hey how about turning this back to a discussion instead of who's getting which CoTS girl /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then, ask me a question or think of something to talk about. What do you want to know about the Seikai universe? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Njr Scrawl

12-21-2004, 02:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
Hey how about turning this back to a discussion instead of who's getting which CoTS girl /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well then, ask me a question or think of something to talk about. What do you want to know about the Seikai universe? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Its laws of physics are fascinating. Did Morioka create a specific reality, or are the laws of physics & dimensions used as devices more than enviroment (both books & animÃ©)?

The Abh seem to hold a similar position as a dominant type of being, as the Zentradi do in Macross, there any similarity ends though.

Do you think the Seikai universe, as concieved by Morioka, is influenced more by US sci-fi or earlier Japanese sci-fi - particuarly animÃ© sci fi such as the "Leijiverse", and Legend of Galactic Heroes universe?

Falcon_73

12-21-2004, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
Do you think the Seikai universe, as concieved by Morioka, is influenced more by US sci-fi or earlier Japanese sci-fi - particuarly animÃ© sci fi such as the "Leijiverse", and Legend of Galactic Heroes universe?

[/ QUOTE ]

I see some Babylon 5 influences in Seikai, other than just the relationship between Jinto and Lafiel (as you had pointed out before, Njr Scrawl. It appears there are some Vorlon like ships running around, even if they aren't organic. B5 did have a lot of Japanese (descent anyway) guest characters as I recall, so there must be a relation. /images/graemlins/wink.gif Of course, I don't mind that as B5 was one of my favorite shows and it got me away from Star Trek, but I digress.

I finished BotS I and while it's probably not as good as CotS, I ended up liking it more. I'll need to watch it again soon, but there were some pretty awesome battle scenes. Of course, it's always good to see Spoor getting the job done too. She's probably not the first person one would become friends with, but is definitely the last person one would want to fight. Where would the Empire be w/o her? /images/graemlins/happy.gif "Ooh, I can almost hear the sound of metal scraping against metal..."

I did see the old Scout Cruisers once, though not while in a battle. Spoor referenced the Futune, but I didn't see it on the screen. However, the battleships always make for a great viewing experience. Those scenes where the screen kind of greys out with several battleships launching mines were awe-inspiring.

At the character level, the interaction between the brothers was a bit dry at first, but it got a bit better as time wore on. However, I much enjoyed the scenes with Admiral Abriel and his chief of staff. The Admiral sure knew how to push people's buttons while getting under their skins just enough. Seeing his chief of staff let off some steam at the end probably made him smile on the inside.

ã‚‚ã?£ã?¨ï¼?ã€€ã‚‚ã?£ã?¨ï¼?

Njr Scrawl

12-22-2004, 07:35 AM

In Crest, I was sweating bricks for Jinto, but with Banner I my concern shifted to Lafiel, and by extension the Basroil.

First, I was watching Lafiel & hoping she would not crack, go beserk, freeze or kamikaze. I was like a crew member...watching & waiting & hoping. Part of the anxiety was because after seeing how a character such as Lexshue & crew in the Gosforth could be created & then sacrificed, I did not know then how expendable the Basroil & crew was to the whole story....

Banner II, and like everyone else, Jinto's predicament became the nailbiter.

BTW, I liked Birth, & although that was linked to Crest, would like "pocket" Seikai universe stories centering on supporting or completely new characters.

12-22-2004, 02:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
Its laws of physics are fascinating. Did Morioka create a specific reality, or are the laws of physics & dimensions used as devices more than enviroment (both books & animÃ©)?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. I'm not sure I entirely understand this question, but I'll give it a shot. I'd say the laws of physics and dimensions in Crest/Banner is the foundation that the story universe is built upon, and this applies to both the novels and the anime. Planar space travel via saudec, and the limitations on combat it places is so vital that, if you take it away the whole story collapses. The same can be said about the Abh's attitude and mentality -- it's the driving force behind why the story is unfolding the way it is.

Which brings up one reason why I like Seikai so much. I dislike Sci-Fi where the science is used as a deus-ex-machina (and often one-shot) plot device, as in the case of Star Trek. It just drives me nuts when an author invents some mumble-jumble just to get the characters into/out of a jam. I consider that bad-writing as anybody can come up with a story based on bullshit. (Oh no, our engine is going to blow up and kill us all because this region of space has a higher than normal concentration of Retardo Particles, and it's causing an out-of-control spike in our Balonium Engine! Ahhh, but don't worry, we just need to re-wire our comm-gear so it generates an Inverse Tachyon Pulse Phase Shield to protect us. Oooh you're such a genius Mr. Engineer/Scientist/Hero-of-the-Moment!)

In all the Seikai I've read (novels and short stories), I have yet to see Morioka use the science/physics of his story universe as the sole plot device. Instead, he uses them as the encompassing environment within which events unfolds. The science/physics are in the background, as opposed to the foreground, of his story.

[ QUOTE ]

The Abh seem to hold a similar position as a dominant type of being, as the Zentradi do in Macross, there any similarity ends though.

[/ QUOTE ]

An interesting comparison, as I've never equated the two races. I'd say however, that Zentradi dominancce stems from their numerical superiority, and they have a cultural weakness. The Abhs are the exact opposite. They have a cultural superiority (I'm probably treading on dangerous water now) which gives them strength -- I say this in terms of their willingness to commit everything to combat for complete victory or utter destruction, their natural affinity for space operations, and their governmental system which allows a very small population to rule half a galaxy. On the other hand, the Abhs are hugely outnumbered by the humans and without human support, the Empire will simply implode on itself.

To me, the Abhs resemble the Romans more than anything else. Both people have a similar attitude towards war -- it's an all or nothing deal to them. Just as the Carthaginians (who practiced the Helenistic way of limited war for limited aims) consistently misjudged the Romans, the humans in Seikai were always wrong when they evaluated the Abhs. In addition, both the Abhs and the Roman empires are multi-racial conglomerates, and citizenship is open to all races/ethnicities, while their enemies are single-raced entities where the conquered stays conquered. This allows the Abhs and Romans, who have small populations, to create and govern a large empire with stability.

[ QUOTE ]

Do you think the Seikai universe, as concieved by Morioka, is influenced more by US sci-fi or earlier Japanese sci-fi - particuarly animÃ© sci fi such as the "Leijiverse", and Legend of Galactic Heroes universe?

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't call Legend of Galatic Heroes "anime sci-fi" just as I wouldn't call Crest/Banner with that title. /images/graemlins/happy.gif Both series are rooted in printed form and it's the popularity of the novels that spawned the anime.

My knowledge of sci-fi literatures is somewhat limited, so I can't really say if Morioka is influenced by any US/Japanese authors. As for "Leijiverse" vs "LoGH"... there are people who call Crest/Banner "LoGH light" and I think the comparisons are somewhat apparent.

To me, "Leijiverse" is always about the individual and his journey. ("Leijiverse" is male dominant so I'll use "his" here.) If you look at Yamato, Harlock, or Galaxy Express 999 it's always one man, one ship, or one boy who makes the difference. There is a modern romanticism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism) in "Leijiverse" which sets the protagonist on a journey. And it's the journey that's important, where the growth and understanding takes place. What happens at the end, if there is a destination in the first place, is the result of the accumulated experience during the journey.

I don't get that from Crest/Banner. True, you can argue that there is a journey in Crest. But it doesn't seem the kind of journey of enlightenment that you see in "Leijiverse." If anything, Crest is more like one of those "adventure of displaced nobility" that you see so often in Japanese fictions (think "damsel in distress" as the Western equivalent) with Jinto and Lafiel alternating their roles as the one in distress.

As for Banner, I don't see any journey there, and the role of the individual is quite minimal. The battles in Banner are waged by the masses and it's the sum of all their actions that affects the outcome. Although the actions of Basroil are intense and personal, especially for the crew on board, in the grand scheme of things it's insignificant and did not change the outcome of the battle, as the Abhs won it despite the loss of the ship. (Heck, the Basroil was destroyed before the Crown Prince's main force began its engagment.) In Banner II, even though it was Lafiel's decision that dictated when and where the battle would be fought, once again she and the Basroil had no role in it, nor could she (or Spaurh for that matter) change the foregone conclusion of the battle, as dictated by the numbers of opposing masses. In fact, even the loss of Spaurh's fleet did not alter the strategic situation, where the United Mankind was on the run in that sector of space. This kind of war of the masses is more akin to LoGH than "Leijiverse."

In the end though, I'd like to think of Crest/Banner as its own entity, as opposed to a derivitive of some other works. There're enough unique qualities there -- the invention of Baronh language for example -- that sets it apart from other sci-fi greats of the past. To me, a large part of Crest/Banner's appeal lies with what Morioka does differently (and well), it's what makes it such a refreshing title to enjoy.

12-22-2004, 04:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Falcon_73 said:
I see some Babylon 5 influences in Seikai, other than just the relationship between Jinto and Lafiel (as you had pointed out before, Njr Scrawl. It appears there are some Vorlon like ships running around, even if they aren't organic.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, that's an interesting comparison, one which hadn't occured to me. What kind of B5 influences do you see? The ships don't count because it's the anime staff who designed them. Morioka almost never tells you what his ships look like...

[ QUOTE ]

I finished BotS I and while it's probably not as good as CotS, I ended up liking it more.

[/ QUOTE ]

The cast has expanded a lot in BotS. In CotS it's a playoff between Jinto and Lafiel. In BotS you get to see other pairings and a complex interaction among the Basroil crew. (Jinto + Lafiel + Ekuryua + Diaho is quite a quadruple relationship. /images/graemlins/happy.gif)

By the way, what do think of what Lafiel said to Jinto during the epilogue, when the two were escaping the Basroil?

[ QUOTE ]

it's always good to see Spoor getting the job done too. She's probably not the first person one would become friends with, but is definitely the last person one would want to fight. Where would the Empire be w/o her? /images/graemlins/happy.gif "Ooh, I can almost hear the sound of metal scraping against metal..."

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, technically she isn't wrong saying that. At that point in the battle she would be patched to the ship's sensor, via her cisaigec (the dangling thing from her tiara). So whatever the ship felt, Spaurh would feel it too (remember Lafiel was momentarily stunned when the Basroil took that crippling hit? Same reason). It is not that much of a stretch for her to say she could almost hear the sound of metal scraping against metal, as her senses were heightened at that point.

Speaking of Spaurh's ability as a commander... she's very much like George Patton (US Army, WWII). They are both excellent battlefield commanders who are famous for assembling/maneuvering heavy units for an all-out punch through the enemy. Both carries the same price for their superiors -- they are dead set on doing things their way. At Aptic Gate, Spaurh was supposed to counter the enemy scout crusiers, but she's determined to have her trample warfare. So she just dashed right through them and moved on to "juicer" targets like battleships and assault ships at the center of the enemy fleet. While it was effective and she did disrupt enemy formations and command capability, it wasn't what the Crown Prince had planned and he still had to deal with those enemy scout cruisers.

Despite her maverick attitude and an appearance of not taking things seriously (at least to Kufadis), Spaurh really is very good at her job. Just before battle commenced, she surprised Kufadis when she issued accurate and appropriate commands to every battlegroup in her fleet without once looking at the tactical plot -- her mental grasp of the big picture was flawless. I don't know who is a better commander-in-chief, the Crown Prince or Spaurh, but she is definitely one of the best fleet commanders we've seen so far.

[ QUOTE ]

Spoor referenced the Futune, but I didn't see it on the screen.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, Futune is the name of her battlgroup back in Crest. It's part of her First Fleet in Banner I. They were using the Bilsch-class scout cruisers back then, but I don't know if they've upgraded since. The red ship you're thinking of is the Helbilsch which was Spaurh's flagship in Crest. I don't think it'll be red once Spaurh transferred her flag to the Rashikau. It seems to be a personal color kind of thing.

[ QUOTE ]

However, the battleships always make for a great viewing experience. Those scenes where the screen kind of greys out with several battleships launching mines were awe-inspiring.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, those scenes really drive home the scale of fleet battles in Seikai. In the digest version, a lot of the CG shots were redone so as to give a better grandiose feel to the fleets. Just before battle began, when Jinto and Lafiel were talking about the three stages of an Abh's life, the new CG shots showed a beautiful panoramic look of the Aptic fleet around Basroil. It has that "...and the sky is full of stars" feel to it and really took my breath away.

[ QUOTE ]

At the character level, the interaction between the brothers was a bit dry at first, but it got a bit better as time wore on. However, I much enjoyed the scenes with Admiral Abriel and his chief of staff. The Admiral sure knew how to push people's buttons while getting under their skins just enough. Seeing his chief of staff let off some steam at the end probably made him smile on the inside.

[/ QUOTE ]

The antics of the twins become a lot funnier, if you realize one of them was claiming he has nothing to do with the Magnificent Insanity that plagues the Bibothec clan, when the tweedle-dee/tweedle-dum like jabbering between the two (it's like a person talking to himself) is a very sign of that insanity to others.

As for the Crown Prince... well his particular line (the Balke family) was sometimes called "Spaurh among Abriels" by other Abriels. Compared to the straight-edged unbending personality typical of Abriels (just look at "Abriel among Abriels" Lafiel), they are quite bent and enjoy messing with people.

As a side note, Lafiel's father is considered a bit of an oddity among Abriels, in that he's a very settled, calm person, not given to anger easily. Abriels are legendary for their anger, and have an exagerrated reputation for having a short fuse. Somehow Doubuse managed to buck that trait and yet produced a poster-child of Abriel as his daughter. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

12-22-2004, 05:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
First, I was watching Lafiel & hoping she would not crack, go beserk, freeze or kamikaze.

[/ QUOTE ]

So little faith for the Princess, eh? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

It's a little harder for me to think that of Lafiel, because in the novel you get to know her feelings better, and her responsibility to her crew was always on top of her mind. Time and again she looks at the flight controls (guhaicec) and her left hand and thought how twenty lives rested on her fingertips. Seeing her cope with that responsibility as well as her fear was part of the enjoyment in Banner I.

[ QUOTE ]

I did not know then how expendable the Basroil & crew was to the whole story....

Banner II, and like everyone else, Jinto's predicament became the nailbiter.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't think Lafiel/Jinto would be in danger in Banner I... too many passages devoted to the two to think they'll die in that book. The rest of the Basroil crew I couldn't tell. The Banner II anime was far more suspensful than the novel, so once again I wasn't terribly worried about Jinto. I was, however, unsure if Jinto would be written out of the story in Banner III though.

At this point I probably won't worry about Jinto again until later in the timeline, when he's getting older or if Lafiel has gotten a kid from him. I know there's a good possibility he'll die before the end of the series, especially if what Morioka said at Otakon is true -- that Banner is the story of Lafiel's life. But right now it seems the two are in their prime and you can do so much with the pairing before writing Jinto out.

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, I liked Birth, & although that was linked to Crest, would like "pocket" Seikai universe stories centering on supporting or completely new characters.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like Birth a lot myself, because it has Lexshue in it. Any story with Lexshue is going to be a good read by my standard. /images/graemlins/happy.gif There are a lot of good "pocket" stories out there, my favorites are:

- Genesis
The story of the 29 original Abhs, from their birth to their decision to rebel against the Mother City, and the origin of the enmity between Abriel and Spaurh. A somewhat dark and serious story.

- Child's Play
Little Ekuryua is the victim of a prank in a derelict.

- Ball Skills (or skills with ball games)
Shortly before she begins officer candidate school, young Atosuryua spends some time with her gene-donar. It is the first meeting between mother and child... except they aren't mother and child.

- Blessing
A great party is thrown in honor of Lafiel being accepted into officer candidate school at an incredible age of 13. All the fan-favorite characters are there: Lexshue, Spaurh, the Crown Prince, and of course Doubuse and Lafiel's younger brother.

There are other interesting short stories too, like Spaurh's "eventful" 16th birthday, or the reason why Admiral Trife dislikes the Intelligence Bureau, but I like those listed above best.

Natsume_Maya

12-24-2004, 04:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Falcon_73 said:
I finished BotS I and while it's probably not as good as CotS, I ended up liking it more. I'll need to watch it again soon, but there were some pretty awesome battle scenes. Of course, it's always good to see Spoor getting the job done too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Regretfully, I'd have to say that I found CotS better than BotS I which in turn was better than BotS II (I didn't find Jinto's predicament engaging at all). I would've liked to have seen more development of the relationships between the crew members of the Basroil. Space battles don't interest me much (though I thought the battle of the Gosroth was well done), but more Spoor is always good /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
(Oh no, our engine is going to blow up and kill us all because this region of space has a higher than normal concentration of Retardo Particles, and it's causing an out-of-control spike in our Balonium Engine! Ahhh, but don't worry, we just need to re-wire our comm-gear so it generates an Inverse Tachyon Pulse Phase Shield to protect us. Oooh you're such a genius Mr. Engineer/Scientist/Hero-of-the-Moment!)

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL! Which Star Trek episode are you quoting there? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
So whatever the ship felt, Spaurh would feel it too (remember Lafiel was momentarily stunned when the Basroil took that crippling hit? Same reason).

[/ QUOTE ]

That doesn't sound practical to me. So at the moment at which a ship takes a serious hit, its commanding officer will also be out of action...?

[ QUOTE ]
The red ship you're thinking of is the Helbilsch which was Spaurh's flagship in Crest. I don't think it'll be red once Spaurh transferred her flag to the Rashikau. It seems to be a personal color kind of thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those celebrated Crimson Eyes of the Spoor, huh? /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It's a little harder for me to think that of Lafiel, because in the novel you get to know her feelings better, and her responsibility to her crew was always on top of her mind. Time and again she looks at the flight controls (guhaicec) and her left hand and thought how twenty lives rested on her fingertips. Seeing her cope with that responsibility as well as her fear was part of the enjoyment in Banner I.

[/ QUOTE ]

This raises an interesting point (to me, anyway). What perspective does Morioka employ with his novels? What you've written suggests that his storytelling is at least omniscient from the point of view of Lafiel. Are the novels third person omniscient? Or mainly told from the point of view of Lafiel? 'Cos the anime version is told from Jinto's point of view, with his narration and thoughts. The anime doesn't give us an insight into what Lafiel or any characters other than Jinto are thinking.

And is Morioka's writing very storyline driven or does he delve a lot into the character's thoughts, feelings and motivations? I tend to find plot driven novels uninteresting...

[ QUOTE ]
I know there's a good possibility he'll die before the end of the series, especially if what Morioka said at Otakon is true -- that Banner is the story of Lafiel's life.

[/ QUOTE ]

That'd be a shame, since I find Jinto more interesting than Lafiel. Though perhaps this is a function of the anime being told from his point of view - as stated above, we're not given much insight into Lafiel's thoughts in the anime.

Falcon_73

12-29-2004, 08:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
By the way, what do think of what Lafiel said to Jinto during the epilogue, when the two were escaping the Basroil?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope I know what you are referring to about now. It is about who will remember us when we pass on right? I think we all want to be remembered, so that it gives our life some meaning. Jinto seems to have the same attitude that I do, but it is a bit unfair to others and perhaps a little selfish in a way. Nobody will remember me, or I'm a nobody sort of thing. Or are you refering to Jinto's fascination with vacuums? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Despite her maverick attitude and an appearance of not taking things seriously (at least to Kufadis), Spaurh really is very good at her job. Just before battle commenced, she surprised Kufadis when she issued accurate and appropriate commands to every battlegroup in her fleet without once looking at the tactical plot -- her mental grasp of the big picture was flawless. I don't know who is a better commander-in-chief, the Crown Prince or Spaurh, but she is definitely one of the best fleet commanders we've seen so far.

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked that scene and how she was able to drop the "show" if you want to call it that and finally show Kufadis that she really does have a method under her madness, even if it drives the Crown Prince nuts. It's funny that after she's through with that, she sighs and says something like "I'm not sure I'm up to this..."

[ QUOTE ]

Well, Futune is the name of her battlgroup back in Crest. It's part of her First Fleet in Banner I. They were using the Bilsch-class scout cruisers back then, but I don't know if they've upgraded since. The red ship you're thinking of is the Helbilsch which was Spaurh's flagship in Crest. I don't think it'll be red once Spaurh transferred her flag to the Rashikau. It seems to be a personal color kind of thing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for clearing this up. I thought "Futune" was a ship as you surmised. I suspect you are right and that the red would be transferred to another ship. Still, it would have been nice to see the old ship...

[ QUOTE ]

Yeah, those scenes really drive home the scale of fleet battles in Seikai. In the digest version, a lot of the CG shots were redone so as to give a better grandiose feel to the fleets. Just before battle began, when Jinto and Lafiel were talking about the three stages of an Abh's life, the new CG shots showed a beautiful panoramic look of the Aptic fleet around Basroil. It has that "...and the sky is full of stars" feel to it and really took my breath away.

[/ QUOTE ]

CotS didn't have any CG did it? I noticed the CG here on the first episode and thereafter, but with the number of ships involved, it's probably necessary. I have no complaints about the job done with the CG as shown, but perhaps I'll get a chance to see the digest version some day.

[ QUOTE ]

The antics of the twins become a lot funnier, if you realize one of them was claiming he has nothing to do with the Magnificent Insanity that plagues the Bibothec clan, when the tweedle-dee/tweedle-dum like jabbering between the two (it's like a person talking to himself) is a very sign of that insanity to others.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kind of like Gollum when it looks like he's talking to himself in that one scene? Yeah, I can see it now /images/graemlins/happy.gif

I'm looking forward to watching this series again. I don't know if I should watch BotS II first though. Actually, I'd like to start over from the beginning again if I hadn't loaned CotS out! CotS was a hit with my anime buddy. He was quite gleeful when I told him there's more than just that. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

It has been a fun thread, perhaps we can get another one going at some point. This one is probably getting a bit long winded, but work has been unkind of late or I would have responded sooner.

12-30-2004, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
Regretfully, I'd have to say that I found CotS better than BotS I which in turn was better than BotS II (I didn't find Jinto's predicament engaging at all).

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you like CotS because it's all about Jinto and Lafiel, with little space combat, you may like the upcoming Banner III. It's 3/4 Jinto and Lafiel, and 1/4 Sobach and Atosuryua. There's little to no action, and it's all talk.

[ QUOTE ]

That doesn't sound practical to me. So at the moment at which a ship takes a serious hit, its commanding officer will also be out of action...?

[/ QUOTE ]

I am not sure. Certainly Lexshue (who was plugged in) had no problem commanding the Gothelauth up till the very end. Baron Febudash had it worst -- his spatial sensor was burned out and he was blinded. But then again Lafiel gave him a lethal dosage of radiation, enough to kill him in moments. So the damage probably came from the actual radiation filling his cockpit.

Other than that, the only example I have for a "stunning blow" was Lafiel in Banner I. In that case, she felt a flash of searing heat in her spatial sensor, before the surge-protection on her tiara kicked in and temporary cut off her connection. The pain was short-lived, but when the surge-protection wore off, Lafiel could feel nothing outside the Basroil. All the sensors on the ship's hull were destroyed by that blast.

My guess is, if the feedback is strong enough to cause pain, as in Lafiel's case, the ship is done for anyways.

[ QUOTE ]

This raises an interesting point (to me, anyway). What perspective does Morioka employ with his novels? What you've written suggests that his storytelling is at least omniscient from the point of view of Lafiel. Are the novels third person omniscient? Or mainly told from the point of view of Lafiel? 'Cos the anime version is told from Jinto's point of view, with his narration and thoughts. The anime doesn't give us an insight into what Lafiel or any characters other than Jinto are thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

Morioka uses a little bit of third person omniscient, just to setup a scene or explain the big picture. Then he zooms in to one (or two) characters and plays out the scene through their eyes. Typically, each paragraph is limited to the perspective of just one character, but sometimes you get inside the minds of two characters within the same scene or chapter. (This happens with Jinto and Lafiel usually.)

For example, any scenes with Spaurh is always seen through Kufadis' perspective. (Well, the one scene with the Crown Prince was seen through the Prince's eyes, but then the scene started from his perspective in the first place.) Most of the time Lafiel is seen through Jinto's eyes but you do get inside her from time to time. This happens usually when Jinto is off-screen and Lafiel is left to herself. When the two are together, you get Jinto's perspective.

[ QUOTE ]

And is Morioka's writing very storyline driven or does he delve a lot into the character's thoughts, feelings and motivations? I tend to find plot driven novels uninteresting...

[/ QUOTE ]

He delves into the characters all the time. That's how he tells the story. As an example, in CotS book II, after Jinto and Lafiel crash-landed on the planet, Jinto took off to buy clothings. The perspective then changes to Lafiel's, as she reflected on the current situation, and how she's lost the initiative to Jinto. You find out how she felt about the whole ordeal, including wishing she has Holia's (the cat) gene just to cope with surface gravity (Abh lives in 0.5g environment). The scene ended with Lafiel falling asleep. Just before she slipped into slumber, she thought about Jinto and smiled. Somehow, he had strangely become much more alive ever since they made planetfall, even though the situation was far more dangerous than it was in Febudash Barony. Lafiel then remembered the panic she felt when she woke up earlier in the day and Jinto wasn't around. It wasn't fear about failing her mission (of getting Jinto to Lakfakalle safely), it was her uncertainty about what she should do if Jinto did abandon her. (That's why she's so pissy when Jinto came back... he gave her a panic-attack /images/graemlins/happy.gif) Lafiel then admitted she has become dependent on Jinto, despite her wishes. Just as well, she thought, because he was the only person she could trust within 100 light years...

Most of those "inside the head" stuff didn't make it to the anime, unfortunately. While you can infer some of it through body language and dialogue, it's not as clear and poignant as in the novels.

[ QUOTE ]

That'd be a shame, since I find Jinto more interesting than Lafiel. Though perhaps this is a function of the anime being told from his point of view - as stated above, we're not given much insight into Lafiel's thoughts in the anime.

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Hmmm... I like them both just as much. Jinto is easy to identify with, since the story is told from his point of view so often. Lafiel has her moments too however, especially when she plays off Jinto, or when she's left to herself and the scene is told from her perspective. Then you get to see how much Jinto has influenced her over the years, in addition to the princess she is.

12-30-2004, 08:00 PM

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Falcon_73 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
By the way, what do think of what Lafiel said to Jinto during the epilogue, when the two were escaping the Basroil?

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope I know what you are referring to about now. It is about who will remember us when we pass on right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, more precisely, I'm referring what Lafiel said to Jinto, "Earlier, you said nobody will feel sad about your death should you die, didn't you?" "Umm, yeah." "I will be sad if you die. Is that not enough?"

[ QUOTE ]

I liked that scene and how she was able to drop the "show" if you want to call it that and finally show Kufadis that she really does have a method under her madness, even if it drives the Crown Prince nuts. It's funny that after she's through with that, she sighs and says something like "I'm not sure I'm up to this..."

[/ QUOTE ]

In Crest, during Futune's charge and the ensuing trample warfare, Spaurh was complaining how boring and tedious it was even as she was beating the crap out of the enemy. Meanwhile, Kufadis, who's in real battle for the first time and has yet to adjust to the way scout cruisers fight (he was transferred from a strike battlegroup not long ago), was scared to hell and trembling in his seat. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[ QUOTE ]

CotS didn't have any CG did it? I noticed the CG here on the first episode and thereafter, but with the number of ships involved, it's probably necessary. I have no complaints about the job done with the CG as shown, but perhaps I'll get a chance to see the digest version some day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm, if CotS used any CGs, it was blended in well. The most likely CG shots would be the fleet scenes, so I'd look there first. I actually like the CGs they use for tactical plots in Banner I/II. That really shows what's going on during the battle and helps make sense of the fleet action, which was quite hectic at times.

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I'm looking forward to watching this series again. I don't know if I should watch BotS II first though.

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If you haven't watched BotS II, you should. It has a good story, and a killer cliff-hanger (to most people) on the 1st episode. It also has [b]the most famous scene in all of Crest/Banner so far. Plus, you get to understand what me and others are talking about on this forum. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Natsume_Maya

12-31-2004, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
Well, if you like CotS because it's all about Jinto and Lafiel, with little space combat, you may like the upcoming Banner III. It's 3/4 Jinto and Lafiel, and 1/4 Sobach and Atosuryua. There's little to no action, and it's all talk.

[/ QUOTE ]

Look forward to it. It'd be good to see more of Atosuryua. It's not that I don't like action per se; it's just that IMO to date the interactions in the Seikai series have been presented in a more interesting fashion to me than the action (I don't know whether that's due to the animators or Morioka). As Andrew Cunningham mentioned in the novel thread, sometimes it's the parts of the Seikai series which don't advance the storyline which are the most interesting /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Morioka uses a little bit of third person omniscient, just to setup a scene or explain the big picture. Then he zooms in to one (or two) characters and plays out the scene through their eyes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks again for all the info /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
For example, any scenes with Spaurh is always seen through Kufadis' perspective.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would be nice to get inside Spoor's head /images/graemlins/happy.gif

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You find out how she felt about the whole ordeal, including wishing she has Holia's (the cat) gene just to cope with surface gravity (Abh lives in 0.5g environment).

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one possible area for nitpicking that I've thought of previously. If the Abh spend all their time in space, and that was Lafiel's first time on a ground world, she didn't seem particularly affected by the experience (I'm assuming it was a roughly 1g world). In Crest of the Stars, she was dodging bullets, shooting soldiers etc as if everything was normal to her.

[ QUOTE ]
I actually like the CGs they use for tactical plots in Banner I/II. That really shows what's going on during the battle and helps make sense of the fleet action, which was quite hectic at times.

[/ QUOTE ]

I found the little map in the insert booklet to the R2 Banner of the Stars digest DVD interesting too - the one which shows which empires control which parts of planar space. Gives a bit more context to what the Abh where trying to do with Operation Phantom Flame.

01-01-2005, 12:17 AM

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Natsume Maya said:
Look forward to it. It'd be good to see more of Atosuryua. It's not that I don't like action per se; it's just that IMO to date the interactions in the Seikai series have been presented in a more interesting fashion to me than the action (I don't know whether that's due to the animators or Morioka). As Andrew Cunningham mentioned in the novel thread, sometimes it's the parts of the Seikai series which don't advance the storyline which are the most interesting /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Banner III made Atosuryua fans out of many people. She was a little stiff and formal in Banner I, with the exception of that dinner. In Banner III you see Atosuryua interacts with her subordinates, and she becomes a far more interesting character. Not to mention, her owning a punching bag and giving it names is just... too cute.

I can see why you prefer the bantering and character interaction in Seikai over the battles. It is after all, one of the major selling points. Speaking for myself, the battles are pretty decent. The anime, with its sight and sound, makes the battles more dynamic and exciting than the novels, though part of it could be the language barrier however. Still, much of the passages during battle sequences are dedicated to character interactions, thoughts/feelings, and quirkiness. Morioka spent relatively little words on actual action descriptions.

[ QUOTE ]
Would be nice to get inside Spoor's head /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

She remains a mystery. /images/graemlins/happy.gif Even Ekuryua gets a long section dedicated to her in Banner II, which was translated to her monologue in the anime. The only time something was written from Spaurh's perspective was the short story that dealt with her 16th birthday. And that story shows you more of her habits than her inner thoughts.

Not to mention, Spaurh doesn't appear in Banner III or IV. I have no idea how she's doing after her First Fleet was destroyed.

[ QUOTE ]

That's one possible area for nitpicking that I've thought of previously. If the Abh spend all their time in space, and that was Lafiel's first time on a ground world, she didn't seem particularly affected by the experience (I'm assuming it was a roughly 1g world). In Crest of the Stars, she was dodging bullets, shooting soldiers etc as if everything was normal to her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Only to suddenly collapse to the ground, and had to lean on Jinto's shoulder from that point onward. Lafiel was putting up a brave face and suffered the double gravity in silence. If you remember, Jinto had a hard time waking Lafiel up when they were walking in the wilderness. Even then, the fatigue was taking its toll on her. Typical of Lafiel, she was too proud to admit the gravity's effect, and she ran, jumped, shot, and fought with everything she got even though it took extra efforts, until she burned up every last bit of energy in her and collapsed.

In the novel, after Lafiel collapsed, Jinto took her to the kitchen of a nearby cafe. The two spent some time resting there, and Jinto procured (read: stole) some water and concentrated grape syrup (the kind you use to make carbonated drinks). Lafiel chugged down her drink in a single gulp, and immediately proclaimed she's rejuvenated, only to have Jinto pointed out otherwise. The two were saved however, when the horse showed up shortly afterwards.

[ QUOTE ]

I found the little map in the insert booklet to the R2 Banner of the Stars digest DVD interesting too - the one which shows which empires control which parts of planar space. Gives a bit more context to what the Abh where trying to do with Operation Phantom Flame.

[/ QUOTE ]

That map was in the Banner I novel too.

wanfu2k1

01-03-2005, 01:03 PM

It was really too bad that they crammed all those books into the first CoTS. It would have been nice to see more of the scenes you described /images/graemlins/sad.gif

Natsume_Maya

01-03-2005, 11:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ahjenta said:
Banner III made Atosuryua fans out of many people. She was a little stiff and formal in Banner I, with the exception of that dinner. In Banner III you see Atosuryua interacts with her subordinates, and she becomes a far more interesting character.

[/ QUOTE ]

Atosuryua being the sister of Klowal and the dinner in BotS I fleshed out her character and made her more interesting to me than the Basroil crew members.

What is Atosuryua's personal name? Same with Ekuryua, Sobash (sp?) and Samson. I assume they're all family names.

[ QUOTE ]
wanfu2k1 said:
It was really too bad that they crammed all those books into the first CoTS. It would have been nice to see more of the scenes you described /images/graemlins/sad.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In particular, it would've been interesting to see Lafiel before the Council of Former Emperors.

BTW, I've read that the "Delktoe language" spoken by the boys at the Delktoe space station was Cantonese Chinese. Can anyone here who speaks Chinese confirm whether or not that scene in episode 2 of CotS sounds like Japanese voice actors attempting to speak Cantonese? It didn't sound like Chinese to me at all /images/graemlins/happy.gif

01-04-2005, 02:29 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
Atosuryua being the sister of Klowal and the dinner in BotS I fleshed out her character and made her more interesting to me than the Basroil crew members.

[/ QUOTE ]

In BotS I, you look at Atosuryua from the outside, through Jinto/Lafiel's eyes. In BotS III, you get inside her head and really get to know her. She becomes even more likeable when you read her side story and see her younger self.

[ QUOTE ]

What is Atosuryua's personal name? Same with Ekuryua, Sobash (sp?) and Samson. I assume they're all family names.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, Morioka refers to most of his characters by their family names. The notable exceptions are the Abriels (too many of them so he has to go with first names), Jinto, and people with non-Abh names.

An Abh name is constructed as followed:

Family name founded by-Family founder Title (if applicable) Given name

The "founded by" part changes according to that family's social stations. There are six of them:

- nÃ©Ã¯c is reserved for the eight houses of the Imperial Family
- bauth is for the side branches of those eight houses (they are no longer Abriels, and cannot compete for the throne)
- aronn is for a noble family that exists before the founding of the Empire
- ssynec is for a noble family created after the founding of the Empire
- Ã¼Ã©mh is for a warrior class family that exists before the founding of the Empire
- borgh is for a warrior class family created after the founding of the Empire

The actual term for this is sapainec (å§“ç§°å?·). I can't think of an English equivalent because this concept does not exist in the English language.

Atosuryua's name would be: Atosryac ssynec-Atosr Lymh Feubdash LoÃ¯c (Lymn Feubdash = Baroness of Feubdash). Many Seikai fans speculate that the "-ryac (-ryua)" suffix so common in Abh family names is the equivalent of "-son" (Bron-son, Dicken-son, Pher-son) in English names, which means "descendets of."

Other examples of names:

- Sobach: Sobach Ã¼Ã©mh-Dor Ã?uth
- Ekuryua: Aicryac Ã¼Ã©mh-Tlyzr Naurh
- Samson: Samsonn borgh-Tiruser Tirusec
- Jinto (Crest): Linn ssynec-Rocr Ã?arlucec Dreuc HaÃ¯der Ghintec (Ã?arlucec Dreuc HaÃ¯der = Son of Count HaÃ¯der)
- Jinto (Banner): Linn ssynec-Rocr Dreuc HaÃ¯der Ghintec (Dreuc HaÃ¯der = Count of HaÃ¯der)
- Lafiel: AblÃ¯arsec nÃ©Ã¯c-Dubleuscr BÅ“rh Parhynr Lamhirh (BÅ“rh Parhynr = Viscountess of Parhynr)

You can find the names for other Abh characters here (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Shrine/4777/Seikai/characters.html).

[ QUOTE ]

BTW, I've read that the "Delktoe language" spoken by the boys at the Delktoe space station was Cantonese Chinese. Can anyone here who speaks Chinese confirm whether or not that scene in episode 2 of CotS sounds like Japanese voice actors attempting to speak Cantonese? It didn't sound like Chinese to me at all /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'm a native Cantonese speaker. I've gone back to that scene in Crest countless times, after reading on a number of sources that Delktoe is a Cantonese-cultured colony. I suppose if you try hard enough, you can imagine them speaking Cantonese -- I certainly failed to pick up any recognizable words, but I can imagine they sound like some Cantonese words I'd use in those situations. The Delktoe culture is kinda (read: I'm being generous when I say kinda) similar to Cantonse culture... maybe if you go back in time far enough before it gets westernized. Morioka did get one thing right though: Delktoe people put their last name first, just like Cantonese/Chinese do.

Jinto's Martine is supposed to be an English/British-cultured colony, btw. He drinks coffee and his favorite food is corn beef sandwich.