AoD Advance Review: Koi Kaze Vol. #1 [Archive]

Ultima

01-25-2005, 02:34 PM

A nice review Chris, I enjoyed reading it /images/graemlins/happy.gif In my opinion, this series is either a hit or miss with viewers. If you have an open mind, you probably would at least find the series decent. Those that are utterly disgusted or appealed by the anime's themes, they probably would either hate it if they watched it or wouldn't have watched it to begin with. As for me, Koi Kaze probably is one of the best anime of 2004. I agree with your sentiments about hentai. As a H anime watcher myself, Koi Kaze was like a breath of fresh air. It is too bad there aren't enough H anime like Shoya -Virgin Night-. Koi Kaze presents the theme of incest (actually spawning from the lack of "Westermarck effect" between the two siblings) in a mature, realistic manner. Oh, and about the train stations and backgrounds, some were actually real places in Japan. I can't find the website atm that did comparison shots /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif but I guess I'll post it if I find it. Though, it would be nice if you stated whether it's actually full screen or widescreen. Since Geneon USA decided to release Koi Kaze as 3 DVDs, I guess it wouldn't hurt getting it region 1. I already got it R2, and it was a fine release.

For pics and comments on the R2 DVD release: http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreade...amp;o=&vc=1 (http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=802857&page=25&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1)
For comparison pics between the series and places in Japan: http://koikaze.angeltale.net/

If anyone wants to check out my full review of the series (spoiler free): http://www.anime-planet.com/reviews/entry.php?id=32

I posted pics of the R2 release at one of the JPEG orgies at the R2 forum and at the geneon dec pdf (if I remember correctly). There weren't a whole lot of specials present on the R2 DVDs either; however, the goodies included in the R2 release made up for that /images/graemlins/happy.gif

PsychoRabbitt

01-25-2005, 02:57 PM

I'm waiting for my copy to ship, just out of morbid curiosity.

MrDisco

01-25-2005, 05:15 PM

take away the incest aspect and there's not much left to this story. not really worth buying as i can't see much replay value in it.

chloes_fork

01-25-2005, 05:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MrDisco said:
take away the incest aspect and there's not much left to this story.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that kind of like saying, take away the weapon aspect from Saikano and there's not much left? A love story needs to have some kind of hook or source of conflict, otherwise it's just two people mooning at each other endlessly. The emotional conflict is the story. And in this case, the incest angle provides that conflict.

So while I haven't seen Koi Kaze yet, I can't really see how this makes much sense as a criticism.

aleczman

01-25-2005, 06:05 PM

I remember enjoying the first few eps. of the show but, decided to wait for the R1 release. I've been on the fence about ordering it (the recent trend in crappy boxes from Geneon -- Burn Up Scramble and Star Ocean EX -- has now made me weary of pre-ordering boxes from them) but, I guess I can always cancel it once the reports come in. Now to worry about this aspect ratio thingie ...

And no, there's nothing wrong with wanting to boink your little sister ... kidding!! /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

No seriously, I'm joking, okay? Obligatory PSA: Please don't boink your little sister.

Chepin

01-25-2005, 06:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
B-Rad Lascelle said:
For me, this show was just fascinating as a character study. Yeah, it's got controversial subject matter... but it's not the first anime to tackle the subject (even in a serious fashion) and it winds up being surprisingly tasteful, candid and exploratory in all of the emotional ground it covers.

[/ QUOTE ]

You took the words out of my mouth. Though I don't approve of incest, I've always described this show as a great character study. I've lurked on other forums though where the show was seen as great love story, and why love should always be allowed, even if it's incestual. /images/graemlins/stunned1.gif
The only thing about this show that creeps me out and made me laugh at the same time is that Nanoka kinda looks like she's 10 years old some of the time, and her brother looks like he's 3 or 4 times bigger than her, especially when they'e standing next to each other. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

MrDisco

01-25-2005, 06:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
chloes_fork said:
Isn't that kind of like saying, take away the weapon aspect from Saikano and there's not much left?

[/ QUOTE ]

to expand on my opinion i feel that there isn't much substance to this show once you remove the shock value. i wont spoil the series but i simply felt it could have done more with the characters. for something as socially unaceptable as incest i felt it needed to do more - at times i felt i was watching any other generic love story.

Hayate Kurogane

01-25-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
lordwu said:
It has 13 episodes so I don't know if the 3 discs release is true. Were there any other Geneon releases of 13 episodes on 3 discs?

[/ QUOTE ]

The Daichis: Earth's Defense Family. 3 discs. 5/4/4 episode spread. And at $25 each, even. Either they got it on the cheap, or it's part of their "impulse buy" release format experiment.

Chris Beveridge

01-25-2005, 07:40 PM

I've corrected a portion of my review and updated a technical aspect; The release is definitely an anamorphic widescreen release. There was some confusion between one Japanese site that listed it as 16:9, one as LB Vista and the fact that none of the press materials nor the actual packaging of the US release indicates it's anamorphic widescreen, something Geneon has been extremely good in ensuring is listed in multiple places on their releases.

I believe the producer was even a bit embarrassed to realize they forgot to put that on the packaging /images/graemlins/wink.gif

So no worries, this is the same great looking transfer as the R2.

weasl

01-25-2005, 07:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MrDisco said:
[ QUOTE ]
chloes_fork said:
Isn't that kind of like saying, take away the weapon aspect from Saikano and there's not much left?

[/ QUOTE ]

to expand on my opinion i feel that there isn't much substance to this show once you remove the shock value. i wont spoil the series but i simply felt it could have done more with the characters. for something as socially unaceptable as incest i felt it needed to do more - at times i felt i was watching any other generic love story.

[/ QUOTE ]

*shrug* Incest in no way shocks me or offends me, but I still found a great deal of enjoyment out of this series. On a side note, i don't think incest is quiet as offensive and taboo in Japan as it is in the states. IMHO the creator was going for a serious look at love between a brother and sister, not just a shock value piece that you seem to want to brush it off as.

Dagger

01-25-2005, 08:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
I've corrected a portion of my review and updated a technical aspect; The release is definitely an anamorphic widescreen release. There was some confusion between one Japanese site that listed it as 16:9, one as LB Vista and the fact that none of the press materials nor the actual packaging of the US release indicates it's anamorphic widescreen, something Geneon has been extremely good in ensuring is listed in multiple places on their releases.

I believe the producer was even a bit embarrassed to realize they forgot to put that on the packaging /images/graemlins/wink.gif

So no worries, this is the same great looking transfer as the R2.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whew! Thanks for the correction; that's a huge relief. Wouldn't have been a deal-breaker... but though I do love the show and all, I also <3 anamorphic widescreen. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

Ultima

01-25-2005, 08:27 PM

Thanks for clarifying Chris /images/graemlins/happy.gif

pianocello

01-25-2005, 08:30 PM

I'm okay with Nanoka but I hate Koishiro as a male lead. Kaname Chidori is a real hoot to watch though.

Did they redo the animation on ep. 2 by chance? I recall the TV broadcast of that had some crappy animation.

AmericanBeauty

01-25-2005, 08:47 PM

Wow. This show got an 'F' by the majority. What's up with that?

TuxedoFred

01-25-2005, 08:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cherry Blossom said:
Wow. This show got an 'F' by the majority. What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, if you can't guess after reading this thread, then check out the show.

Mr. Nail Bat

01-25-2005, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cherry Blossom said:
Wow. This show got an 'F' by the majority. What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Plurality, not majority.

Sorry... pet peeve.

Shsway

01-25-2005, 09:20 PM

I'm extremely torn over this review. It's an excellent one, as usual, and I was actually waiting to see what Chris would have to say about this show before even thinking about the possibility of checking it out for the character study element that B-rad Lascelle so helpfully referred to.

I'm pretty squeamish about this subject in general, having a sibling, but I recognize that a well-written story is a well-written story. I guess I'm going to sit this one out, and wait for reviews/comments across the board for volumes 1 and 2 before I make a decision about it.

Man, just the age difference between the two leads is awfully creepy. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

Nork22

01-25-2005, 09:23 PM

Well, if anything hentai has taught me, love is ever strange. Not that I'm implying that Koi Kaze is anything hentai, but the taboos are right there.

I was eager to see it as Chris did, so I guess I can't wait. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Texhnolyze

01-25-2005, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cherry Blossom said:
Wow. This show got an 'F' by the majority. What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]

Incest.

BonifaceVIII

01-25-2005, 10:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cherry Blossom said:
Wow. This show got an 'F' by the majority. What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude. Sister.

chloes_fork

01-25-2005, 10:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BonifaceVIII said:
[ QUOTE ]
Cherry Blossom said:
Wow. This show got an 'F' by the majority. What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Dude. Sister.

[/ QUOTE ]

Squeamish crowd. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Mark

01-25-2005, 10:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
mustang said:
The only thing about this show that creeps me out and made me laugh at the same time is that Nanoka kinda looks like she's 10 years old some of the time, and her brother looks like he's 3 or 4 times bigger than her, especially when they'e standing next to each other. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Chris' review is the first I heard of Koi Kaze (other than just hearing the name), but that's exactly what I thought when I saw the box art. It looks like he could eat her.

Suwako Moriya

01-25-2005, 10:59 PM

I have to give it a C+ and neutral. The first few episodes were interesting, but not enough to hold my interest and eventually I dropped it. Again like others it is not because of the incest issue, but because it started to become well boring.

perigee

01-25-2005, 11:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cherry Blossom said:
Wow. This show got an 'F' by the majority. What's up with that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm.. Rape, murder, global war - no problem, it's just fantasy. It's only a story, can't you get over that?

Consensual relations between siblings - how repulsive, even if it is just fantasy. People shouldn't be watching anime about such horribly deviant behavior.

I'm in no way condoning incest and have no real interest in the subject. I just find it curious that some people can be so forgiving of violence but so upset about an illicit love relationship - and one not forbidden by every society at that. Anyway, doesn't it always turn out that one party is adopted or something?

Leon_Belmont

01-26-2005, 12:16 AM

Maybe because "incest" is so rare it's a cry for attention. Controversial enough to garner curiosity sales. A media ploy that requires little extra effort in storytelling.

Not saying a good show using incest can't be done, but people are perfectly entitled to their opinions.

Thanatos

01-26-2005, 12:24 AM

I think the outrage in this case is not because it's incest, it's LOLI incest. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

I'm trying to imagine the co-producing board meeting at Geneon when the Japanese were describing the show.

J: "It is a touching story about the romantic love between an older brother and his young sister."

A: "That'll be a hit in the states! SOLD!!!"

/images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Shale

01-26-2005, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thanatos said:
I think the outrage in this case is not because it's incest, it's LOLI incest. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

I'm trying to imagine the co-producing board meeting at Geneon when the Japanese were describing the show.

J: "It is a touching story about the romantic love between an older brother and his young sister."

A: "That'll be a hit in the states! SOLD!!!"

/images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That may well have been the case, although I'd imagine they'd be slurring their words more after that much liquor.

Leon_Belmont

01-26-2005, 12:36 AM

Perhaps a similar tactic will be used to get it on Adult Swim. That would be a rather fascinating scenario.

stfram

01-26-2005, 12:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Shale said:
That may well have been the case, although I'd imagine they'd be slurring their words more after that much liquor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoken in a drunken voice: "And we want the UNCUT DVD footage! If we're goin' this far, we may as well go all the damn way!"

Melazomah

01-26-2005, 01:15 AM

[ QUOTE ]
perigee said:
Anyway, doesn't it always turn out that one party is adopted or something?

[/ QUOTE ]
By all accounts, Koi Kaze is not one of those cases.

Still, your points are valid in this very double-standard imposed on the acceptability of media content. It's okay to indulge in bloody murders and the destruction of the entire universe; yet it is not okay to watch blood-related siblings falling in love. Both are ills forbidden by many societies. Just as watching a person getting dismembered or skinned alive should make one cringe, so should the depiction of incest. If both are cringe-inducing experiences to an individual, these experiences are not that much different. They are not real--just as the fictional stories in games, movies and books--they are meant to be experienced not so one can act it out in reality, but to take a glimpse at what that forbidden--by forbidden I mean all societal ills--action can be like, and hopefully learn a lesson or two by observing the consequences to the actions. Koi Kaze, especially in the way of demonstrating the consequences to an action, far surpasses viloence-filled shows like Samurai Champloo.

Why would one be afraid of incest, and an imagined case, in the first place? If you have siblings, you should watch it, and find out that you don't have the remotest of inclinations toward incest. Or are you afraid to find out, and is staying away from Koi Kaze for you fear what you may find?

Shale

01-26-2005, 01:28 AM

A rebutal:

Social conventions against violence are situational and a matter of degree; assault is not OK, while self-defense is, and lethal force is condoned when there is no other option. Escapist violence is usually going to be within the limits of that convention; the situation portrayed must simply be extreme enough to allow for the extreme response, which it generally is. The characters who are indiscriminantly violent - torturing, attacking the innocent, raping, etc. - are rarely the protagonists, and if they are the series is often viewed in the same light as Koi Kaze (Violence Jack, anyone?). Gruesome or unnecessary violence does make us cringe, and we don't root for the characters who start it.

By contrast, the taboo against incest is absolute. It is ingrained into us to detest the act. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would actually pay money to empathize with someone who performs it. The only mitigation is to have the two not be related by blood - temptation doesn't make the act justifiable on any level. You can't make a hero, even a tragic one, out of someone whose main characteristic is reprehensible. You'll note that one of the most popular shows here, and one of my personal favorites, does involve incest in a fairly major way, but it's presented as fundamentally perverse and we're never expected to see the relationship from their point of view and sympathize. That's the difference.

Thanatos

01-26-2005, 01:31 AM

I have a sibling... no way.

Though I'd like to point out that anime and manga depecitions of incest are correct, in a sense. Incest between biologically-related siblings almost always requires a seperation at a young age for significant period of time (or sexual deviants, but let's ignore that for now /images/graemlins/happy.gif). Anthropologists theorize that families functioning, a mere association effect, drastically reduces the chances of incest because staying with one's relatives increases one's feelings of disgust at the prospect of intercourse with them.

Melazomah

01-26-2005, 02:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Shale said:
A rebutal:

Social conventions against violence are situational and a matter of degree; assault is not OK, while self-defense is, and lethal force is condoned when there is no other option. Escapist violence is usually going to be within the limits of that convention; the situation portrayed must simply be extreme enough to allow for the extreme response, which it generally is. The characters who are indiscriminantly violent - torturing, attacking the innocent, raping, etc. - are rarely the protagonists, and if they are the series is often viewed in the same light as Koi Kaze (Violence Jack, anyone?). Gruesome or unnecessary violence does make us cringe, and we don't root for the characters who start it.

By contrast, the taboo against incest is absolute. It is ingrained into us to detest the act. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would actually pay money to empathize with someone who performs it. The only mitigation is to have the two not be related by blood - temptation doesn't make the act justifiable on any level. You can't make a hero, even a tragic one, out of someone whose main characteristic is reprehensible. You'll note that one of the most popular shows here, and one of my personal favorites, does involve incest in a fairly major way, but it's presented as fundamentally perverse and we're never expected to see the relationship from their point of view and sympathize. That's the difference.

[/ QUOTE ]
I do not want to see a hero of any kind in Koi Kaze, nor do I want to empathize with the characters who deliberately choose a path which they know is wrong. Just as I am not likely--I say this because I've never see it--cheer for the character "Violent Jack," I don't want to cheer for the characters of Koi Kaze. What I want out of this experience is just to be the observer. If I happen to see something sympathatic or even empathatic in some parts of this doomed relationship, so be it. It is, after all, not reality. I alone can make it real; but I for one, don't.

Gatts

01-26-2005, 03:41 AM

In all of the arguments about violence vs. sex, people tend to forget one major thing. Having sex with a sibling would be relatively easy compared to destroying the universe. Ease of access has to have some factor in the whole equation. That's why suicide films are more taboo than "lets blow up the world" films. Suicide is much easier to do and much more accessible.

aniki21

01-26-2005, 04:24 AM

Re: accessibility, you're thinking it's kind of like those "videogames make kids violent" arguments? Kind of a "they see it, they might copy it" thing? I don't know how applicable that kind of logic is to an incestual relationship like in KoiKaze. There does seem to be an ingrained disgust in most people when it comes to incest, and I don't think it's the kind of barrier that's going to be crossed by watching a Japanese cartoon TV show.

If I've misinterpreted what you meant, I apologise. /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif

Gatts

01-26-2005, 04:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
aniki21 said:
Re: accessibility, you're thinking it's kind of like those "videogames make kids violent" arguments?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, general opinion will look at how accessible an act is and place a much harsher restriction on something that can easily be done in real life than something that is not easily done/impossible. Have you (or others) noticed how certain violent acts are being cut out of the old Looney Toons/Tom and Jerry cartoons recently while other things are not? Acts like Tom shooting himself in the head are cut out while other ones where Tom gets shot full of holes and then takes a drink of water stay around.

tablesalt

01-26-2005, 06:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Gatts said:
In all of the arguments about violence vs. sex, people tend to forget one major thing. Having sex with a sibling would be relatively easy compared to destroying the universe. Ease of access has to have some factor in the whole equation. That's why suicide films are more taboo than "lets blow up the world" films. Suicide is much easier to do and much more accessible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Blow up the world films are more common because they make more money. There's no Taboo towards suicide films, it's just that movies about whiney people alone in an apartment aren't exciting.

The arguement that reasonable people will , against their nature, do what they see is dubious, and the unreasonable people who might should not dictate the direction of art.

The incest taboo is universal across all cultures (with slight variations as to what constitutes 'family'), so it's likely an evolved behaviour, or instinct. It's not that people are afraid it will be copied, it's just that they have an ingrained distaste for it.

MrDisco

01-26-2005, 07:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
weasl said:
On a side note, i don't think incest is quiet as offensive and taboo in Japan as it is in the states. IMHO the creator was going for a serious look at love between a brother and sister, not just a shock value piece that you seem to want to brush it off as.

[/ QUOTE ]

no i disagree there. the one character who did find out about their secret was clearly repulsed by his actions so if we're going to use anime as a reflection on japanese culture (a sticky proposition to be sure) then there are similar values held when it comes to direct family relationships.

Further this show isn't about the pure brother-sister bond that most people have. The characters clearly wanted to take it beyond that. from that standpoint i think more could have been done with the story. you could have replaced the incest aspect with some other plot device and the story would have flowed just the same. as an example imagine if the older brother had aids and meets this girl (they're not related). she finds out he has aids and despite this they still want to see each other (etc). follow the rest of the show and everything still fits. (now before anyone jumps all over me this is just an example. yes people could have an intimate relationship but my point is just to illustrate the generic nature of the show).

in the end though it's just my thoughts. it is a nice looking show from a technical standpoint.
EDIT: also i did vote this show as 'B' because i do agree it was entertaining.

Collectonian

01-26-2005, 08:46 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Shale said:
By contrast, the taboo against incest is absolute. It is ingrained into us to detest the act. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would actually pay money to empathize with someone who performs it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll disagree with that. The taboo against incest is NOT absolute (few things are), nor is it ingrained in us to detest the act, at least not genetically. Society is what decides incest is taboo, and in American society it usually is. However, not every society is the same and not all of them consider all forms of incest taboo, even between a brother and sister. Wikipedia's entry on incest discusses some of those societies, so I won't copy paste the whole thing here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incest . Usually you'll also find out about the varying levels incest taboo in a cultural anthropology or intro to anthropology course (like I did).

Now, going with strictly American society, even still its not absolute that all of us will detest the act. I don't and I would empathize with such a couple. Relating it back to Koi Kaze, I empathized with the couple and cheered for them.

I don't think its reprehensible, at all, and really don't see why society thinks they have the right to control such things. I could understand laws against incest between parents and under age children (child molestation & position of authority thing), or between any family member and an under age relative. When they are consenting adults, though, butt out.</mild rant on society>

Ultima

01-26-2005, 09:10 AM

Seems people have gotten an idea that the two main characters just "do it" without any reason. Of course incest is bad; however, that is not the point of Koi Kaze. The point of Koi Kaze is to present a story of two long seperated siblings (from divorce) fighting the growing love between each other once they have been brought together many years later. A quote from one of my reviews:

Koi Kaze, literally translated as Love Wind, is a story about an older brother named Koushirou (28) and his younger sister Nanoka (15), that fall in love with each other. This phenomenon is actually real and is due to "genetic sexual attraction, where close relatives who were brought up not knowing about one another may find each other highly attractive when they later meet as adults. This is due to lack of "Westermarck effect" where two people live in close domestic proximity during the first few years in the life of either one, both are desensitized to later close sexual attraction and bonding" (ANN). Because of the adult themes in Koi Kaze, it probably it best for mature audiences to view, since younger audiences probably wouldn`t get what was going on. And if you are mature enough to understand the themes, but are totally appalled by the very idea of incest, just remember that this is fantasy and none of this is real.

Additionally, it seems people fail to recognize that both Koushirou and Nanoka had interest or a relationship between other people before they met. And even when they met, it wasn't "OMG I love you, let's have sex!" No, it was much more gradual and nothing really happens between them until much later in the series. In the meantime, both characters struggle with their growing feelings for each other. You get to see how each thinks, how Koushirou, an older man having feelings for his younger sister. And Nanoka, becoming a woman having feelings for her brother. Of both characters, I felt the most sympathy towards Koushirou because Nanoka in the end became so pushy (which was rather surprising). In any case, like someone else stated earlier, Koi Kaze is a character study (hence a drama) and if you can't deal with a problem that is real, well you just shouldn't watch it and post obnoxious remarks simply because you can't accept the incest theme in the series.

Genetic sexual attraction is real. It appears in divorces or in children that are given up for adoption only later on try to discover their past and find their family. It is a well documented phenomenon and can be researched easily even on the Internet. Those that describe the series as "brother has sex with sister, ZOMG!" in my opinion totally missed the point of the series and really should try to see the bigger picture. The series does not "condone" incest but rather presents a fictional story that "could" happen. If you're not mature enough to handle handle a story that is not real, I can't imagine how someone would handle a similar problem in real life.

Chris Beveridge

01-26-2005, 09:20 AM

Thank you for adding your comments. For the most part, this particular thread has been really great to read over the past day with a lot of intresting comments and insights. It's going far better than I ever really expected it to and after the chaos of the past couple of days around here, is exactly what we need more of.

BonifaceVIII

01-26-2005, 09:59 AM

A very simple rebuttal:

Everybody's a hypocrite. I can watch some of the most outrageously offensive stuff in anime and laugh my way to the bank, but I can't even comprehend why anyone would want to watch a serious anime about an incestual relationship.

Hell, I can even watch shows where daughters are raped by their fathers and revel in it, but I don't get the appeal of Koi Kaze. Maybe it's the age difference, maybe it's some sort of deep-seeded societal repulsion, maybe I just don't like romance shows and this is just another straw on the camel's back.

It doesn't make sense, and it doesn't have to. I don't like it.

Shale

01-26-2005, 10:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Collectonian said:
[ QUOTE ]
Shale said:
By contrast, the taboo against incest is absolute. It is ingrained into us to detest the act. You'd be hard-pressed to find anyone who would actually pay money to empathize with someone who performs it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll disagree with that. The taboo against incest is NOT absolute (few things are), nor is it ingrained in us to detest the act, at least not genetically. Society is what decides incest is taboo, and in American society it usually is. However, not every society is the same and not all of them consider all forms of incest taboo, even between a brother and sister.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I thought that was implied. Taboo is implicitly a societal construct, though it usually exists for sound practical reasons, the one on violence as much as the one on incest. My point is that violence is much more societally acceptable than incest, because there is a range of circumstances where it's considered justified.

Ultima

01-26-2005, 11:29 AM

In my opinion, that's your prerogative - if you don't like it you don't have to watch it, just don't make comments about something that you haven't experienced or watched, trying to imply that that's the way it really is. I've watched numerous H anime even more offensive (if I asked someone to say which was more offensive) than Koi Kaze (i.e. Ail Maniax, Pigeon Blood, Bondage Game - Shinsou no Doreitachi, Bondage Game - Shinsou no Reijoutachi, El, M.E.M. - Lost Virginity, Daraku, Ai wa Kagi no Kazu Dake). All those anime are clearly more offensive than Koi Kaze in my opinion. There are even other anime that use the theme as incest as a gimmick (Angel Sanctuary or Onegai Twins) but usually engage it in a comedical manner. If I remember correctly, even Chris mentioned that something along those lines in his review.

To quote "vivafruit" a reviewer from AniDB:
"The key difference, I think, is the character development. In Angel Sanctuary, the individuals involved didnâ€™t really feel like real people, but puppets being used to take the storyline to whatever pretentious direction the writers wanted to go in next. With Onegai Twins, the immense fanservice and the idiotic dialogue (we might be related, but we might not!) dehumanized the girls enough to make the overtones palatable."

So I guess the difference is that the theme of incest in Koi Kaze is treated in a realistic, intelligible manner - perhaps that's unappealing for some anime fans.

perigee

01-26-2005, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
tablesalt said:
The incest taboo is universal across all cultures (with slight variations as to what constitutes 'family'), so it's likely an evolved behaviour, or instinct. It's not that people are afraid it will be copied, it's just that they have an ingrained distaste for it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that's true. Brother-sister marriages aren't universally condemned. They are certainly present in Egyptian dynasties, for example, and in those societies the king and queen were considered gods. The taboo against close pairings is probably a learned behavior rather than instinct. Genetic defects resulting from inbreeding usually take multiple generations to express themselves. Social hierarchy within a clan is affected by incest immediately.

Marriage between first cousins - only one step removed - is even more accepted in Western society. It was quite common in 19th century America. In fact, it's still legal in half the states (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/cousins.htm) in the US. Disapproval for close marriages seems to be a case of moral relativism.

I don't understand the argument about acceptability of violence being a matter of situational ethics. There are times when violence is necessary, but is it ever preferable to love? Those who transgress sexual boundaries can either be ostracized or rehabilitated. Once someone is dead, it's pretty final. If asked which I would rather see portrayed in anime, I'd take love over graphic depictions of violence.

TuxedoFred

01-26-2005, 12:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Ultima said:
To quote "vivafruit" a reviewer from AniDB:
"The key difference, I think, is the character development. In Angel Sanctuary, the individuals involved didnâ€™t really feel like real people, but puppets being used to take the storyline to whatever pretentious direction the writers wanted to go in next. With Onegai Twins, the immense fanservice and the idiotic dialogue (we might be related, but we might not!) dehumanized the girls enough to make the overtones palatable."

So I guess the difference is that the theme of incest in Koi Kaze is treated in a realistic, intelligible manner - perhaps that's unappealing for some anime fans.

[/ QUOTE ]

WARNING ONEGAI TWINS SPOILERS

That's an interesting point. Onegai Twins deals with more or less the same issue, but it wraps it all up in fanservicey wholesomeness. However, they never cross the line and actually fuck. Once one of them finds out the truth, she backs off. In Koi Kaze, the characters know the truth to start off with. Sure, they may have been tempted to do what they did because they didn't spend their childhood together, but they still had a choice. Contemporary thought tends to associate temptation (due to biological predisposition or otherwise) with inevitability, forgetting that people have to choose to give in to temptation. Where does accountability lie?

I think that's what's turning people off of this show. We don't want to watch people go down this road. It's like watching a train wreck. Some watch out of morbid curiosity. Some watch to try to understand why it happened. Others just turn away.

edited to be less specific in regards to Onegai Twins

weasl

01-26-2005, 12:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
MrDisco said:
[ QUOTE ]
weasl said:
On a side note, i don't think incest is quiet as offensive and taboo in Japan as it is in the states. IMHO the creator was going for a serious look at love between a brother and sister, not just a shock value piece that you seem to want to brush it off as.

[/ QUOTE ]

no i disagree there. the one character who did find out about their secret was clearly repulsed by his actions so if we're going to use anime as a reflection on japanese culture (a sticky proposition to be sure) then there are similar values held when it comes to direct family relationships.

Further this show isn't about the pure brother-sister bond that most people have. The characters clearly wanted to take it beyond that. from that standpoint i think more could have been done with the story. you could have replaced the incest aspect with some other plot device and the story would have flowed just the same. as an example imagine if the older brother had aids and meets this girl (they're not related). she finds out he has aids and despite this they still want to see each other (etc). follow the rest of the show and everything still fits. (now before anyone jumps all over me this is just an example. yes people could have an intimate relationship but my point is just to illustrate the generic nature of the show).

in the end though it's just my thoughts. it is a nice looking show from a technical standpoint.
EDIT: also i did vote this show as 'B' because i do agree it was entertaining.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well the whole show is supposed to be fairly serious and realistic, thus it would be a generic love story about an unorthodox form of love.

treatment

01-26-2005, 12:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
perigee said:
[ QUOTE ]
tablesalt said:
The incest taboo is universal across all cultures (with slight variations as to what constitutes 'family'), so it's likely an evolved behaviour, or instinct. It's not that people are afraid it will be copied, it's just that they have an ingrained distaste for it.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't believe that's true. Brother-sister marriages aren't universally condemned. They are certainly present in Egyptian dynasties, for example, and in those societies the king and queen were considered gods. The taboo against close pairings is probably a learned behavior rather than instinct. Genetic defects resulting from inbreeding usually take multiple generations to express themselves. Social hierarchy within a clan is affected by incest immediately.

Marriage between first cousins - only one step removed - is even more accepted in Western society. It was quite common in 19th century America. In fact, it's still legal in half the states (http://www.ncsl.org/programs/cyf/cousins.htm) in the US. Disapproval for close marriages seems to be a case of moral relativism.

I don't understand the argument about acceptability of violence being a matter of situational ethics. There are times when violence is necessary, but is it ever preferable to love? Those who transgress sexual boundaries can either be ostracized or rehabilitated. Once someone is dead, it's pretty final. If asked which I would rather see portrayed in anime, I'd take love over graphic depictions of violence.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's the other way around.

The taboo against incest is instinctive and genetic, not learned. Check other mammals (or even non-mammals) for similar species behaviour.

The practice of the ancient egyptian ruling-class regarding incest was pure political, therefore that behaviour/practice is learned and intentional.

At any rate, I don't like Koi Kaze and it's theme-presentation. No matter how much they coat it with artsy-fartsy stuff, it still boils down that this series is an extreme loli-theme. Dunno why they didn't just labeled it as hentai in the first place, anyway.

smcguckin

01-26-2005, 04:04 PM

Mustang -

Your Tsukuyomi avatar /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif, is there a bigger version of it?

If so, is it someplace one can download it?

If so, but there isn't someplace one can download it, and you wouldn't mind e-mailing it, let me know here and I'll PM you with my e-mail address.

treatment

01-26-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Lazarus said:
Mustang -

Your Tsukuyomi avatar /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif, is there a bigger version of it?

If so, is it someplace one can download it?

If so, but there isn't someplace one can download it, and you wouldn't mind e-mailing it, let me know here and I'll PM you with my e-mail address.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have one.

here:

http://img116.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img116&image=tsukuyomimodeopcatch7cu.jp g

01-26-2005, 07:34 PM

Incest has been studied and puzzled over in films, literature, myth, for thousands of years.

350 years ago in England, John Ford produced the play TIS PITY SHE'S A WHORE, whch deals with incest.

Almost 2500 years ago, Oedipus was written.

These are just two examples, but the subject comes up periodically, because incest happens periodically...

I think the only thing odd here is that it's animated. We're not used to complex, painful stories of incest being cel shaded.

-Liam (ADR Director and Script writer for the show)

Chepin

01-26-2005, 09:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Lazarus said:
Mustang -

Your Tsukuyomi avatar /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif, is there a bigger version of it?

If so, is it someplace one can download it?

If so, but there isn't someplace one can download it, and you wouldn't mind e-mailing it, let me know here and I'll PM you with my e-mail address.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here ya'll go: Tsukuyomi pix site. (http://lolip.hp.infoseek.co.jp/list/review/tsukuyomi/tsukuyomi.html)

Edible

01-26-2005, 09:23 PM

As one of the, uh... lucky individuals who fansubbed this, I must say... A+!

...

<_<?

Chiyosuke

01-26-2005, 09:36 PM

Um, I'm nuetral on the show. It's mainly because I'm open to pretty much all genres in anime. I still find it weird that Geneon actually marketed it, let alone, produced it.

smcguckin

01-26-2005, 10:00 PM

Thanks. That's a heck of a site. /images/graemlins/noseblee.gif

smcguckin

01-26-2005, 10:01 PM

Thanks!

prismic

01-26-2005, 11:27 PM

All the discussion and Chris' review has actually made me interested in trying out the series. At first I was put off by the theme, but I think I am going to give the first volume a try and see if the show handles the issue in a way that won't make my skin crawl.

Rhodes

01-27-2005, 12:18 PM

taboo on incest in genetic? umm so if I had 1 female and 1 male and they are related and the female is in heat... your saying the male dog wont want to do it?

taboo on incest is learned, you have had breeders doing line breeding of animals for centuries... i am sure some of the animals that breed were closely related.

if you have some science behind the claim that the taboo of incest is genetic and instinctual then post a link and I'll read it.

wanfu2k1

01-27-2005, 12:41 PM

Plus alot of the royal lines in europe were heavily interbred back in the day so it's been a relatively recent pheonomenom (in human history) that places a taboo in incest.

treatment

01-27-2005, 12:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Rhodes said:
taboo on incest in genetic? umm so if I had 1 female and 1 male and they are related and the female is in heat... your saying the male dog wont want to do it?

taboo on incest is learned, you have had breeders doing line breeding of animals for centuries... i am sure some of the animals that breed were closely related.

if you have some science behind the claim that the taboo of incest is genetic and instinctual then post a link and I'll read it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everything is learned, if you really wanna get anal about it, i.e. fear of snakes, yada yada yada.

Repulsion and rejection of incest is genetic, i.e. biological. genetic defects do occur when results of incest happens. These are all documented scientifically. Not just in humans, but in other animals as well. Animals don't have codified stuff like taboos. Animals (like our species and the other mammals) just know instinctively that it's a bad thing and reject and drive out their siblings when the another instinct (procreation) switches on.

Taboos were invented later in various cultures to properly codify unacceptable behaviour and practices like incest, sheep-buggering, and the like.

If you want to learn more about the reasons behind taboos and how science actually justify taboos like incest, just go hit some biology and sociology books and stuff. If that's not possible, you can always watch History-channel, National Geographic, Discovery-channel and PBS-channel shows like Nova and stuff.

Rhodes

01-27-2005, 01:22 PM

well yes i know the genetic reasons behind it... errors in the dna code etc. but with the mapping of the human genom and i think in the future we will be able to nip genetic defects in the bud... the science behind the taboo of incest sort of dies out and its only then a moral question.

but even with the risk of genetic problems, we humans have been line breeding animals regardless.

BonifaceVIII

01-27-2005, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Rhodes said:
but even with the risk of genetic problems, we humans have been line breeding animals regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's why several "pure-bred" strains of dogs are prone to insanely high risk of rare conditions like narcolepsy.

Dogs with shallow gene pools often suffer from dramatically increased risks of osteoporosis, deafness or inner ear problems leading to loss of balance, immune deficiencies, various ocular ailments inclusive of malfunctioning tear ducts, opaqueness of the eyes and deterioration of the retina, urinary problems, the list goes on.

Sure it does happen, that doesn't mean it's a good idea.

perigee

01-27-2005, 01:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
Repulsion and rejection of incest is genetic, i.e. biological. genetic defects do occur when results of incest happens. These are all documented scientifically. Not just in humans, but in other animals as well. Animals don't have codified stuff like taboos. Animals (like our species and the other mammals) just know instinctively that it's a bad thing and reject and drive out their siblings when the another instinct (procreation) switches on.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very few behaviors are instinctive for higher order mammals. Dogs that are isolated from other canines don't know how to mate, e.g. Among humans almost all behavior is learned.

[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
If you want to learn more about the reasons behind taboos and how science actually justify taboos like incest, just go hit some biology and sociology books and stuff. If that's not possible, you can always watch History-channel, National Geographic, Discovery-channel and PBS-channel shows like Nova and stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's an excerpt from a sociology text (http://www.ablongman.com/html/henslintour/henslinchapter/ahead3.html) that specifically addresses the incest taboo.[ QUOTE ]
Feelings against incest run so deeply that we might think the incest taboo is due to human instinct. As you may have noticed, however, nowhere in this book do I speak of any human behavior whatsoever as due to instinct. The sociological view is that our behaviors and attitudes are due to our socialization in human groups. The incest taboo is no exception to this basic sociological principle.

[/ QUOTE ]

01-27-2005, 02:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
Incest has been studied and puzzled over in films, literature, myth, for thousands of years.

350 years ago in England, John Ford produced the play TIS PITY SHE'S A WHORE, which deals with incest.

Almost 2500 years ago, Oedipus was written.

These are just two examples, but the subject comes up periodically, because incest happens periodically...

I think the only thing odd here is that it's animated. We're not used to complex, painful stories of incest being cel shaded.

-Liam (ADR Director and Script writer for the show)

[/ QUOTE ]

and just to continue on what I've already written-

this argument as to whether our uncomfortability with incest is genetic or social, it ultimately is a separate argument from this show being good or not.

Obviously, incest in todays society has very painful, complex ramifications.

As do murder, rape, child molestation, genocide, nuclear proliferation, racism, hate crimes, prostitution, torture, the slave trade...

But that doesn't stop us from telling stories that deal with these issues. How else are we to understand ourselves, understand humanity, if we're not willing to examine every facet of mankind?

treatment

01-27-2005, 02:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]
perigee said:
[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
Repulsion and rejection of incest is genetic, i.e. biological. genetic defects do occur when results of incest happens. These are all documented scientifically. Not just in humans, but in other animals as well. Animals don't have codified stuff like taboos. Animals (like our species and the other mammals) just know instinctively that it's a bad thing and reject and drive out their siblings when the another instinct (procreation) switches on.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very few behaviors are instinctive for higher order mammals. Dogs that are isolated from other canines don't know how to mate, e.g. Among humans almost all behavior is learned.

[/ QUOTE ]

Fallacy. Dogs and other canines (fox, wolf, etc) are natural social animals. Dog-isolation is un-natural and, as pets, human-directed deliberate altered-behaviour.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
If you want to learn more about the reasons behind taboos and how science actually justify taboos like incest, just go hit some biology and sociology books and stuff. If that's not possible, you can always watch History-channel, National Geographic, Discovery-channel and PBS-channel shows like Nova and stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
Here's an excerpt from a sociology text (http://www.ablongman.com/html/henslintour/henslinchapter/ahead3.html) that specifically addresses the incest taboo.[ QUOTE ]
Feelings against incest run so deeply that we might think the incest taboo is due to human instinct. As you may have noticed, however, nowhere in this book do I speak of any human behavior whatsoever as due to instinct. The sociological view is that our behaviors and attitudes are due to our socialization in human groups. The incest taboo is no exception to this basic sociological principle.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

Iirc, most sociologists like that author does not really account nor attempt to explain or even just plain not mention the scientific fact of the inbreeding-results of incest, which affects both physical and social behaviours in various societies (both advanced or non-advanced).

EWD

01-27-2005, 02:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Rhodes said:
well yes i know the genetic reasons behind it... errors in the dna code etc. but with the mapping of the human genom and i think in the future we will be able to nip genetic defects in the bud... the science behind the taboo of incest sort of dies out and its only then a moral question.

but even with the risk of genetic problems, we humans have been line breeding animals regardless.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just an issue of genetic defects. There are a number of genes where it is better to have two slightly different copies of the gene than two that are the same. The child of a brother and sister is far more likely to have two copies that are the same. So, even if the brother and sister had "perfect" genes, any child they had would, on average, be less healthy than the child of two unrelated people with "perfect" genes.

Also, you vastly underestimate the complexities and cost that will be involved "to nip genetic defects in the bud" - and there are also very thorny moral issues here too.

There are still many things we have to learn, but science generally supports the idea that it is a bad idea for a brother and sister to have kids. Also, there is some alarm in the scientific community over just how inbred some domestic lines of animals are, but people haven't figured out what to do yet.

Chiyosuke

01-27-2005, 02:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
Obviously, incest in todays society has very painful, complex ramifications.

As does murder, rape, child molestation, genocide, nuclear proliferation, racism, hate crimes, prostitution, torture, the slave trade...

But that doesn't stop us from telling stories that deal with these issues. How else are we to understand ourselves, understand humanity, if we're not willing to examine every facet of mankind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nicely said.

Your mentions of other societal problems actually helped get the point across well. While I think the subject in general is taboo, a story,animated at that, couldn't hurt.

TuxedoFred

01-27-2005, 05:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Chiyosuke said:
[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
Obviously, incest in todays society has very painful, complex ramifications.

As does murder, rape, child molestation, genocide, nuclear proliferation, racism, hate crimes, prostitution, torture, the slave trade...

But that doesn't stop us from telling stories that deal with these issues. How else are we to understand ourselves, understand humanity, if we're not willing to examine every facet of mankind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nicely said.

Your mentions of other societal problems actually helped get the point across well. While I think the subject in general is taboo, a story,animated at that, couldn't hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be so. But what are we to think about a show whose ostensibly sympathetic characters willingly engage in child molestation, rape, or torture? Is it unreasonable to expect a similar response from the general public?

And the questions don't stop there: how certain are we that the subject matter won't be handled in an indulgent and exploitative manner? And if it does, does that make the show "wrong"? If we know the message of the show is contrary to our personal beliefs, should we still watch it? Can it still be entertaining, or are we now watching it only to learn about other people's socio-sexual agenda?

My point is, at the very least, our scrutiny should not be treated as unwelcome with subject matter of this gravity.

Chiyosuke

01-27-2005, 06:10 PM

Actually the point that Liam got me with was the fact that people still create stories about said subjects. I can't really go any further without sounding unintelligible. Sorry /images/graemlins/relief1.gif.

01-27-2005, 08:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TuxedoFred said:
[ QUOTE ]
Chiyosuke said:
[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
Obviously, incest in todays society has very painful, complex ramifications.

As does murder, rape, child molestation, genocide, nuclear proliferation, racism, hate crimes, prostitution, torture, the slave trade...

But that doesn't stop us from telling stories that deal with these issues. How else are we to understand ourselves, understand humanity, if we're not willing to examine every facet of mankind?

[/ QUOTE ]

Very nicely said.

Your mentions of other societal problems actually helped get the point across well. While I think the subject in general is taboo, a story,animated at that, couldn't hurt.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be so. But what are we to think about a show whose ostensibly sympathetic characters willingly engage in child molestation, rape, or torture? Is it unreasonable to expect a similar response from the general public?

And the questions don't stop there: how certain are we that the subject matter won't be handled in an indulgent and exploitative manner? And if it does, does that make the show "wrong"? If we know the message of the show is contrary to our personal beliefs, should we still watch it? Can it still be entertaining, or are we now watching it only to learn about other people's socio-sexual agenda?

My point is, at the very least, our scrutiny should not be treated as unwelcome with subject matter of this gravity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, first off, I NEVER said this discussion wasn't unwelcome. I'm really fascinated by this entire thread. And, actually, there is no such this as bad publicity, so I'm pleased that this discussion is lasting as long as it is.

I AM curious to know how many people on this thread have actually SEEN the show. I obviously have, I'm directing the dub... But I'm wondering how many people are passing judgment without knowing the story or characters.
For those of you who haven't, it as a FAR cry from an endorsement of incest. I don't think I'll be spoiling the story if I say that the main character is filled with self loathing for his feelings. Hardly a thumbs up for incest.

If some people are squeamish about the subject matter, the obvious and simple choice is not to watch it. If you dont like what a TV show is about, you change the channel. If you don't like what Howard Stern does on his show, you can turn the dial. And if you don't like an anime show, you can put on another one.

BUT- I hope you won't rush to judgement on ANYTHING with out having seen it. A story can have a dark subject matter, and still be a story worth hearing.

I don't endorse murdering your higher ups for career advancement, but I love Macbeth.

I don't feel the urge to molest children, but I was very moved by Kevin Bacon in the recent film, The Woodsman. Also love the book Lolita, which is a masterpiece of literature.

These are stories ABOUT murder and molestation. Not endorsements OF murder and molestation.

Anyway, to wrap it up, let me just say- PLEASE, keep talking, keep kicking the idea ball around. I'm not trying to end debate- I'm just trying to contribute.

Chris Beveridge

01-27-2005, 08:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TuxedoFred said:
That may be so. But what are we to think about a show whose ostensibly sympathetic characters willingly engage in child molestation, rape, or torture? Is it unreasonable to expect a similar response from the general public?

[/ QUOTE ]

The general public is a fickle thing; look at some of the things it does accept and then doesn't accept. I'm still stunned by the "uproar" over the appearance of a nipple during last years Super Bowl.

What it'll come down with the individual though is their general preference for stories; do they want it all sugar coated, fairly generic but enjoyable entertainment but stuff that's generally considered palp or do they want something that's challenging? I had forgotten about the Woodsman until Liam mentioned it but that's a great example. During the Ebert & Roeper review of it, they were saying how difficult a subject it is and it says a lot about the people who made it - that they had the courage to tackle a tough and hard to tell tale but could do it convincingly without pandering or really passing judgement. The film *is* fascinating since it deals with something people have a hard time dealing with, which is forgiveness. A man commits a crime and does the time and that should absolve him of it to some extent but this shows the reality of what happens.

And therein lies the rub - a lot of people (anime fans and joe everybody) don't want reality in their shows. So there'll always be a split in how people react to stuff like this. But I think it says a lot that anime can and will tell stories like this and like Grave of the Fireflies. It doesn't matter the medium but the medium can add new shades to the telling of the tale. To deny these new shades is to do a disservice to the world.

Ok, now I'm rambling. Pardon me /images/graemlins/happy.gif

BonifaceVIII

01-27-2005, 09:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
And therein lies the rub - a lot of people (anime fans and joe everybody) don't want reality in their shows. So there'll always be a split in how people react to stuff like this. But I think it says a lot that anime can and will tell stories like this and like Grave of the Fireflies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting that you bring up Grave of the Fireflies. The reason why I hated GotF so much was because the protagonist could not generate an ounce of sympathy from me. The subject matter was tackled well enough and I appreciated the frank handling of death and atrocity, but the fact that the protagonist was so despicable in his actions in a film (my opinion, of course) structured to make him into a tragic character is why I consider it a complete failure.

Relating this back to Koi Kaze, I guess this means that I can't respect something that attempts to make an obviously wrong decision into a tragic one. There is a difference.

01-27-2005, 10:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BonifaceVIII said:
[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
And therein lies the rub - a lot of people (anime fans and joe everybody) don't want reality in their shows. So there'll always be a split in how people react to stuff like this. But I think it says a lot that anime can and will tell stories like this and like Grave of the Fireflies.

[/ QUOTE ]
Interesting that you bring up Grave of the Fireflies. The reason why I hated GotF so much was because the protagonist could not generate an ounce of sympathy from me. The subject matter was tackled well enough and I appreciated the frank handling of death and atrocity, but the fact that the protagonist was so despicable in his actions in a film (my opinion, of course) structured to make him into a tragic character is why I consider it a complete failure.

Relating this back to Koi Kaze, I guess this means that I can't respect something that attempts to make an obviously wrong decision into a tragic one. There is a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

I still understand why you wouldn't follow the characters of Koi Kaze like you would any story, movie, or play.

MACBETH
Macbeth is driven to kill by "vaulting ambition."

STREETCAR NAMED DESIRE
Stanley Kowalski beats his wife and rapes her sister.

OLD TESTAMENT
Abraham is stopped just as he is about to murder his son.

OEDIPUS REX
Oedipus kills his father, sleeps with his mother.

LOLITA
Humbert Humbert kidnaps and sexually abouses a girl for years.

GODFATHER
Don Corleone is the head of a crime family, responsible for tons of deaths.

SHINDLER's LIST
The Nazi officer play by Ralp Feinnes kills Jews witha rifle from the roof of his house, helps to run "the final solution.."

SILENCE OF THE LAMB
Lots o murder.

TITUS ANDRONICUS
Feeds his worst enemy her own children baked in a pie.

BIRTH
Character played by Nicole Kidman develops romantic feelings and bathes naked with 10 year old she thinks is her reincarnated husband.

MONSTER
Serial Killer played by Charlize Theron murders men on the highway.

I could sit here all night thinking of them.

These are all VERY BAD THINGS. But they're stories that have been told about the less than perfect side of life to try to illuminate the human condition.

So why should 13 episodes of anime be treated by different standards?

And lastly, have you watched this show yet? I'm curious.

BonifaceVIII

01-27-2005, 10:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
And lastly, have you watched this show yet? I'm curious.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I haven't. I probably won't, either.

And I love every story you listed there save Birth (which I haven't seen but would like to) and Monster (which I thought was meandering and aimless; so she killed some guys, who cares?). I especially love Titus Andronicus, which is my favourite Shakespeare play.

I have nothing against the existence of Koi Kaze. In fact, as you said there's definitely a lot of arguments for its existence. Hell, I've got an uncle that married his first cousin. It's just that they have a mentally disabled son now.

01-27-2005, 11:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BonifaceVIII said:
[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
And lastly, have you watched this show yet? I'm curious.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, I haven't. I probably won't, either.

And I love every story you listed there save Birth (which I haven't seen but would like to) and Monster (which I thought was meandering and aimless; so she killed some guys, who cares?). I especially love Titus Andronicus, which is my favourite Shakespeare play.

I have nothing against the existence of Koi Kaze. In fact, as you said there's definitely a lot of arguments for its existence. Hell, I've got an uncle that married his first cousin. It's just that they have a mentally disabled son now.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all good. Different strokes for different folks.

Roujin0308

01-27-2005, 11:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien asked:
I AM curious to know how many people on this thread have actually SEEN the show.

[/ QUOTE ]

<raises hand>
I have; bought the R2 version of the series as each volume was released. However, as this is a dialogue intensive show and my comprehension of Japanese is rudimentary at best, I feel unqualified to discuss its merits, the handling of the incest theme, etc.

TuxedoFred

01-27-2005, 11:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
Well, first off, I NEVER said this discussion wasn't unwelcome. I'm really fascinated by this entire thread. And, actually, there is no such this as bad publicity, so I'm pleased that this discussion is lasting as long as it is.

I AM curious to know how many people on this thread have actually SEEN the show. I obviously have, I'm directing the dub... But I'm wondering how many people are passing judgment without knowing the story or characters.
For those of you who haven't, it as a FAR cry from an endorsement of incest. I don't think I'll be spoiling the story if I say that the main character is filled with self loathing for his feelings. Hardly a thumbs up for incest.

If some people are squeamish about the subject matter, the obvious and simple choice is not to watch it. If you dont like what a TV show is about, you change the channel. If you don't like what Howard Stern does on his show, you can turn the dial. And if you don't like an anime show, you can put on another one.

BUT- I hope you won't rush to judgement on ANYTHING with out having seen it. A story can have a dark subject matter, and still be a story worth hearing.

I don't endorse murdering your higher ups for career advancement, but I love Macbeth.

I don't feel the urge to molest children, but I was very moved by Kevin Bacon in the recent film, The Woodsman. Also love the book Lolita, which is a masterpiece of literature.

These are stories ABOUT murder and molestation. Not endorsements OF murder and molestation.

Anyway, to wrap it up, let me just say- PLEASE, keep talking, keep kicking the idea ball around. I'm not trying to end debate- I'm just trying to contribute.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't seen the show (aside from the first 4 episodes or so), but I was speaking in more general terms. I was not trying to indict the show, I was asking what criteria should we (as the audience) use to determine if a "challenging" show like this is something we want to watch.

I'll admit that your show has gotten of to a bad start as there is a lot of buzz out there already that focuses on the act and not the consequences. Mind you, I wasn't really expecting them to end saying "Hooray for incest!", nor was I expecting someone to wave a magic wand and have them not really be related. You say that the show depicts the self-loathing of the main character due to his actions. But I wonder if that is enough for some people. I understand what you are saying about the difference between depicting certain themes and endorsing them. And unlike some others, I'm not sure that to fail to condemn is to endorse.

I guess, ultimately, you could say "this show isn't for everybody". (Score another point for Captain Obvious)

BTW, this is quite possibly the most "challenging" show I may watch for a while. So I hope you've got some boob-and-panty-fests in the pipes to cut me a break.

And I hope you didn't take that last comment the wrong way, I wasn't accusing you of trying to stifle discussion; that was geared more to the moral relativists and absolutists out there, to the proxy war fought between DNA and sociology, and to anyone else who might think there is a clear or simple answer.

The Pirate Queen

01-28-2005, 06:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
I AM curious to know how many people on this thread have actually SEEN the show.

[/ QUOTE ]

I haven't, but this thread has certainly convinced me to.

Gatts

01-28-2005, 06:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
I AM curious to know how many people on this thread have actually SEEN the show.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seen the show and read part of the manga. It got a bit boring though (the manga that is, the show is short enough that I didn't really have time to get bored).

wanfu2k1

01-28-2005, 11:28 AM

So your passing judgment on something you haven't seen yourself? Well I'm not gonna judge this show until i've seen the episodes and decide for myself if it's a steaming pile of dung or something that's worth keeping.

eau

02-02-2005, 03:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
prismic said:
All the discussion and Chris' review has actually made me interested in trying out the series. At first I was put off by the theme, but I think I am going to give the first volume a try and see if the show handles the issue in a way that won't make my skin crawl.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah. I was put off by the incest theme but then if the show handles the issue ethnically then I may consider it again. Both ANN and AnimeNfo shows pretty high rating for the show.

I understand the theme is touchy, but the show actually takes the two characters into incest, you know, sex related scenes /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif. If so, it is definitely dropping from my list.

Hayate Kurogane

02-02-2005, 03:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
eau said:
Yeah. I was put off by the incest theme but then if the show handles the issue ethnically then I may consider it again. Both ANN and AnimeNfo shows pretty high rating for the show.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that really the word you want? /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

Texhnolyze

02-02-2005, 03:18 PM

The reason I just can't watch this show is because I find the idea of incest disgusting, and personally I would be rooting against the couple the entire time. So that wouldn't make it very fun for me.

It really does have some beautiful artwork though.

Hayate Kurogane

02-02-2005, 03:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
The reason I just can't watch this show is because I find the idea of incest disgusting, and personally I would be rooting against the couple the entire time. So that wouldn't make it very fun for me.

It really does have some beautiful artwork though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I've missed something obvious, but do they actually end up together? Do they ever have sex? If they don't in the series, do things happen that would logically lead to sex in the future? If the answer to those questions is no, then perhaps people need a new word to use.

Dagger

02-02-2005, 03:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sakura Shinguji said:
[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
The reason I just can't watch this show is because I find the idea of incest disgusting, and personally I would be rooting against the couple the entire time. So that wouldn't make it very fun for me.

It really does have some beautiful artwork though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I've missed something obvious, but do they actually end up together? Do they ever have sex? If they don't in the series, do things happen that would logically lead to sex in the future? If the answer to those questions is no, then perhaps people need a new word to use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoilers for the last few episodes:

Yes, they do have sex. The ending is ambiguous... they contemplate a double suicide, but end up deciding to defy society. While they are clearly happy, the viewer is not exactly invited to celebrate with them, and there are scenes of ordinary people eyeing them with confusion or disgust (because of the obvious age difference).

The final episode is filled with heavy foreshadowing of impending doom, but there's no grand tragic ending. So they do end up together, and in a sexual relationship, to boot.

eau

02-02-2005, 03:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sakura Shinguji said:
[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
The reason I just can't watch this show is because I find the idea of incest disgusting, and personally I would be rooting against the couple the entire time. So that wouldn't make it very fun for me.

It really does have some beautiful artwork though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I've missed something obvious, but do they actually end up together? Do they ever have sex? If they don't in the series, do things happen that would logically lead to sex in the future? If the answer to those questions is no, then perhaps people need a new word to use.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm looking for an answer to those questions too. I guess I'm trying to see how the show turns out at the end, and if it implies incest is acceptable, if there is any inappropriate, intimate physical contact (you know) /images/graemlins/shy10000.gif

Ultimately these answers will dictate whether this show is a buy or not.

eau

02-02-2005, 03:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dagger IX1 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Sakura Shinguji said:
[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
The reason I just can't watch this show is because I find the idea of incest disgusting, and personally I would be rooting against the couple the entire time. So that wouldn't make it very fun for me.

It really does have some beautiful artwork though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I've missed something obvious, but do they actually end up together? Do they ever have sex? If they don't in the series, do things happen that would logically lead to sex in the future? If the answer to those questions is no, then perhaps people need a new word to use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoilers for the last few episodes:

Yes, they do have sex. The ending is ambiguous... they contemplate a double suicide, but end up deciding to defy society. While they are clearly happy, the viewer is not exactly invited to celebrate with them, and there are scenes of ordinary people eyeing them with confusion or disgust (because of the obvious age difference).

The final episode is filled with heavy foreshadowing of impending doom, but there's no grand tragic ending. So they do end up together, and in a sexual relationship, to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]
Are the sex scenes explicitly graphic/detailed or just implicit with evasive camera angles? I don't think I want to watch a show that has explicit scenes, that will surely make me upset.

So the show doesn't really promote or glorify incest since there are scenes of oridinary people eyeing them with disgust and condemnation. That at least is more positive

B-Rad Lascelle

02-02-2005, 04:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
eau said:
Are the sex scenes explicitly graphic/detailed or just implicit with evasive camera angles? I don't think I want to watch a show that has explicit scenes, that will surely make me upset.

So the show doesn't really promote or glorify incest since there are scenes of oridinary people eyeing them with disgust and condemnation. That at least is more positive

[/ QUOTE ]
There are no sex scenes of any kind. I'd compare it to Karekano in that respect except even there, you had some aspect of artistically implied activity between Yukino and Arima. In Koikaze, you're getting the Brady Bunch treatment. Enough implication to know they had sex but nothing steamy of any kind. However, there's no room left for viewer interpretation. It's made quite clear as to what the nature of their relationship is.

Hayate Kurogane

02-02-2005, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dagger IX1 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Sakura Shinguji said:
[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
The reason I just can't watch this show is because I find the idea of incest disgusting, and personally I would be rooting against the couple the entire time. So that wouldn't make it very fun for me.

It really does have some beautiful artwork though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I've missed something obvious, but do they actually end up together? Do they ever have sex? If they don't in the series, do things happen that would logically lead to sex in the future? If the answer to those questions is no, then perhaps people need a new word to use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoilers for the last few episodes:

Yes, they do have sex. The ending is ambiguous... they contemplate a double suicide, but end up deciding to defy society. While they are clearly happy, the viewer is not exactly invited to celebrate with them, and there are scenes of ordinary people eyeing them with confusion or disgust (because of the obvious age difference).

The final episode is filled with heavy foreshadowing of impending doom, but there's no grand tragic ending. So they do end up together, and in a sexual relationship, to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, okay. Thanks for clearing that up. Having not seen the show myself, I didn't want to take the chance that people were having a discussion here without knowing all the facts first. (But of course we know that never happens.) Anyway, it's good to have the information out there. I'm buying the show, and have no problems with the theme in question, for what that's worth.

Rhodes

02-02-2005, 04:24 PM

I havent seen this show yet but am waiting to see it.

from what you describe it is sort of close to decision Miki and Yuu came to in Marmalade Boy before they found out the truth from their parents.

from what i gather there is no animated sex scenes, this isnt a hentai title, just a drama about a subject matter that some ppl would prefer isnt talked about.

wanfu2k1

02-02-2005, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Sakura Shinguji said:
[ QUOTE ]
eau said:
Yeah. I was put off by the incest theme but then if the show handles the issue ethnically then I may consider it again. Both ANN and AnimeNfo shows pretty high rating for the show.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is that really the word you want? /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Well the characters are supppose to be japanese /images/graemlins/wink.gif

pianocello

02-03-2005, 03:56 AM

I'm amazed as to how many people are actually giving this show an F without having seen the show at all!!! Me thinks they are no different from people who say all anime are porn without sampling the variety that anime has to offer.

Natsume_Maya

02-03-2005, 05:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Gatts said:
[ QUOTE ]
LiamObrien said:
I AM curious to know how many people on this thread have actually SEEN the show.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seen the show and read part of the manga. It got a bit boring though (the manga that is, the show is short enough that I didn't really have time to get bored).

[/ QUOTE ]

The manga would be better if there was more Chidori in it /images/graemlins/happy.gif Unfortunately, as the story progresses, there's more and more focus on just Koushiro and Nanoka. I've got the fifth and final volume of the manga, but haven't had the time to look at it yet.

[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
The reason I just can't watch this show is because I find the idea of incest disgusting, and personally I would be rooting against the couple the entire time. So that wouldn't make it very fun for me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny that you should use the word "rooting". In Australia that has a rather different colloquial meaning /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
It really does have some beautiful artwork though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I was attracted to the manga by the artwork by Yoshida Motoi (which is copied in the anime). Unfortunately his stories seem to touch upon these kinds of issues. His other manga Mizu to Gin focuses on a number of characters, one of whom is a uni student who has a relationship with a highschool girl. Except she looks like a primary school girl (even his friends think that she's a primary school girl at the beginning). Yoshida's stories tend to just focus on relationships.

vanfanel

02-03-2005, 03:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BonifaceVIII said:
Interesting that you bring up Grave of the Fireflies. The reason why I hated GotF so much was because the protagonist could not generate an ounce of sympathy from me.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, on the GotF DVD, director Takahata mentions his disappointment upon the films release, that everyone seemed to just feel sorry for Seita, and nobody criticized his behavior. He said that he wanted to take a modern kid (which he apparently views as self-centered, arrogant, etc), and put him in this terrible situation from the past to see how he did. But the modern kids just related.

[ QUOTE ]
Relating this back to Koi Kaze, I guess this means that I can't respect something that attempts to make an obviously wrong decision into a tragic one. There is a difference.

[/ QUOTE ]

And I think herein is a big reason this show is problematic, and it's not the fault of Koi Kaze per se. The problem is a fandom that often mixes mainstream entertainment with elements of pornographic/deviant material and celebrates/fetishizes everything. I keep hearing about these video games that have clean and X-rated versions, and these get made into TV shows for regular broadcast in Japan. And then extra nudity is added back into the tamer TV shows to sell DVDs, and fans gladly fork over ridiculous amounts of money just to remove a little bit of steam (or add a little bit of steam, as it were).

Imply a gay relationship, and people preorder without a second thought. Why? Because THEY MIGHT BE GAY WHICH MEANS THEY MUST BE GAY!! OMGLOL!!!!1111!

And that's not even scratching the surface. Hentai fans are very vocal here, so even if you don't watch the stuff, it's hard not to get a vague sense of what's going on in that world. And it's all hidden behind Japanese words like "hentai", "yaoi", "lolicon" and "shouta", presumably to avoid dealing with English terms such as "deviant", "gay porn", and "pedophilia".

It's quite remarkable--I'm not aware of any other kind of fandom where such seamy materials coexist so closely with things like Cardcaptor Sakura--which was itself created by people who have made some creepy works in their own past, and who toy with such elements even in children's shows.

When I saw the cover art, and heard about the theme, it was very, very easy to think, "more of the same, but now they're trying to push this crap further mainstream, and implying that I must prove my openmindedness by watching it."

I haven't seen the show, so I don't know firsthand if it's a great work of art or if it's video-game fetish-fodder. After reading the thread, I'd guess it's somewhere in the middle, maybe tilted a bit toward the Masterpiece Theater (or Arthouse theater) side of things.

It's not something I care to see either way, really, and when I read about the age (or height) difference, I'm still suspicious that a "LOLI!!!@@!!1111" element may be in play here. But I'm at least thankful for this thread for at least modifying my initial impression of the show somewhat.

chloes_fork

02-03-2005, 04:03 PM

^ A though-provoking post -- and I say this as someone who watches my share of hentai, and in general embraces the exploitative side of anime along with the more artistic likes of Lain and Noir. Nicely done.

Natsume_Maya

02-04-2005, 12:03 AM

[ QUOTE ]
vanfanel said:
FWIW, on the GotF DVD, director Takahata mentions his disappointment upon the films release, that everyone seemed to just feel sorry for Seita, and nobody criticized his behavior. He said that he wanted to take a modern kid (which he apparently views as self-centered, arrogant, etc), and put him in this terrible situation from the past to see how he did. But the modern kids just related.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, thanks for the info. I'm one of those people who wasn't really affected by Grave of the Fireflies, because I couldn't really symphathise with Seita. It's interesting to read the Takahata didn't intend him to be a completely sympathetic character.

[ QUOTE ]
The problem is a fandom that often mixes mainstream entertainment with elements of pornographic/deviant material and celebrates/fetishizes everything. I keep hearing about these video games that have clean and X-rated versions, and these get made into TV shows for regular broadcast in Japan. And then extra nudity is added back into the tamer TV shows to sell DVDs, and fans gladly fork over ridiculous amounts of money just to remove a little bit of steam (or add a little bit of steam, as it were).

[/ QUOTE ]

That's one of the things which sorta worries me about anime at the moment. While anime is gaining a more popular/wider base in the West, in Japan more and more anime seems to be based on bishoujo/adult/ero-games etc, ie stories more directed towards a narrower fan/maniac base. There have been a lot of anime based on love simulation games in recent years (mainly male oriented games, but more recently also female oriented games).

As others on this thread have stated, I'm a bit surprised that Geneon USA would co-produce a show with a theme of incest. In a world of nippleless Super Bowls, I'd have thought executives would be worried what would happen if certain organisations got wind of cartoons with incestuous themes.

[ QUOTE ]
Imply a gay relationship, and people preorder without a second thought. Why? Because THEY MIGHT BE GAY WHICH MEANS THEY MUST BE GAY!! OMGLOL!!!!1111!

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/happy.gif MariMite /images/graemlins/happy.gif
But Sei isn't gay, she's just Buddhist /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
And that's not even scratching the surface. Hentai fans are very vocal here, so even if you don't watch the stuff, it's hard not to get a vague sense of what's going on in that world. And it's all hidden behind Japanese words like "hentai", "yaoi", "lolicon" and "shouta", presumably to avoid dealing with English terms such as "deviant", "gay porn", and "pedophilia".

[/ QUOTE ]

Interestingly, I don't think the Japanese themselves use the word "hentai" to describe such games, anime, manga. To them, using such a word would be offensive because it's implying that the person playing/watching/reading the material is deviant or abnormal. Only fans in the West would describe such works as "hentai".

vanfanel

02-05-2005, 10:45 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Only fans in the West would describe such works as "hentai".

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe that's correct, as well. In the shops here, the curtained-off areas usually just have a sign that says "Adoruto" = "Adult", and I've never heard of any product being marketed as "hentai" in Japan. I wonder how the whole thing got started in the West in the first place...

Gatts

02-05-2005, 05:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
Interestingly, I don't think the Japanese themselves use the word "hentai" to describe such games, anime, manga.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ero-game. bishoujo pasogame, bishoujo anime are what you see most often. However some places don't even make a distinction. There are a few places that specifically state "hentai" as well. It just depends on where you go. I like how Mangaoh calls their hentai manga section æˆ?å¹´ (seinen) comics however the link to the page says Hcomic. Their yaoi section is called è€½ç¾Žç³» (tanbikei).

MalrocK

03-13-2005, 07:59 AM

halfway through volume 1 and I love it /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

TheGreenMan

03-13-2005, 09:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Malrock said:
halfway through volume 1 and I love it /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The art box has such beautiful artwork /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

Dagger

03-13-2005, 12:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TheGreenMan said:
[ QUOTE ]
Malrock said:
halfway through volume 1 and I love it /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The art box has such beautiful artwork /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, doesn't it? I could ogle that thing for weeks. It's as beautiful as the Someday's Dreamers box, IMO, and that's saying a lot.

Anyway, I'm enjoying the dub version of the show. Koshiro's seiyuu has a really unique quality to his voice that would've been pretty much impossible to duplicate or imitate, but so far Patrick Seitz has handled the character well. And Nanoka sounds perfect.

03-13-2005, 12:58 PM

I finished watching this the other night. I was literally on the edge of my seat waiting to see what would happen next. This is a very thought provoking show, and I can't wait to see the subsequent volumes. Geez volume 2 isn't out until the end of May. /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

BTW the artbox is absolutely stunning, and I love the side of the box with Nanoka and the cherry blossoms. She is just too cute for words. The stickers are also a definite plus. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

indigo0086

03-13-2005, 06:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dagger IX1 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Sakura Shinguji said:
[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
The reason I just can't watch this show is because I find the idea of incest disgusting, and personally I would be rooting against the couple the entire time. So that wouldn't make it very fun for me.

It really does have some beautiful artwork though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe I've missed something obvious, but do they actually end up together? Do they ever have sex? If they don't in the series, do things happen that would logically lead to sex in the future? If the answer to those questions is no, then perhaps people need a new word to use.

[/ QUOTE ]

Spoilers for the last few episodes:

Yes, they do have sex. The ending is ambiguous... they contemplate a double suicide, but end up deciding to defy society. While they are clearly happy, the viewer is not exactly invited to celebrate with them, and there are scenes of ordinary people eyeing them with confusion or disgust (because of the obvious age difference).

The final episode is filled with heavy foreshadowing of impending doom, but there's no grand tragic ending. So they do end up together, and in a sexual relationship, to boot.

[/ QUOTE ]

good way to look at it, I had a similar take on the series except by the end I didn't know what I should feel about the couple. I mean the most you could wish for Koshiro like Chidori said is good health, and that he at least be happy, but not particularly happy together wiht his sister. As for the scene which I think you are talking about, in the park on the last episode, I thought it was rather ambiguous. I know they were obviously of different age, but I think it was just that the onlookers were confused to see an older man in the park having a mud fight with a much younger person. I don't think it was abvious that they had any kind of unusual relationship at first sight, maybe the mud fighting gave it away but I don't think they were disgusted by such a relationship just yet.

Hayate Kurogane

03-13-2005, 07:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Malrock said:
halfway through volume 1 and I love it /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

At this time, I'm halfway through the disc as well, and am enjoying the show immensely. What struck me right away was the interesting style of the animation; not the character designs, but the overall feel. It's sort of like the entire show is done in the way that nostalgia-ish flashback scenes are done in other shows, although that's not quite exactly it. Anyway, it lends a lot to the atmosphere of the show, and I think it works splendidly.

I'm watching in Japanese this time, which is generally my default, but I'm definitely looking forward to going back and checking out the dub. As noted by another poster, Koshiro's seiyuu has a pretty distinct sort of voice, so it'll be interesting to see how his English counterpart voices the character. Equally interesting should be Nanoka's VA, but in this case it's largely because the performance given by Nanoka's seiyuu just isn't working for me. To be generous, I could call it somewhat reserved youthful innocence, but to be honest, I'd just say it's flat and uninspired. Hopefully in English Nanoka will seem like she's emoting.

03-14-2005, 01:22 AM

And I'm through disc 1. After reading through this thread earlier I thought that maybe I'd made a mistake and would be creeped out â€” and before that I'd thought it was a mistake because there's no way such a subject could be handled with maturity and sensitivity. So the A-/Positive was a bit of a surprise for me. I won't say that the blind F-graders should rethink their position, as they've already pretty much closed themselves off, but I can say that anybody whose mind is open should be able to find something of value with this series. The storytelling and scenario are superb. (And it's not nearly as weird as, say, the girls' costumes in Daphne.)

Side note regarding the packaging (because I don't believe I saw this in any of the earlier responses): The artbox does mention that the show is anamorphic. They didn't get it entirely wrong! Yay for Pioneer! (It doesn't even say Pioneer on the box or the keepcase, and there I go.)

Innotech

03-14-2005, 12:22 PM

the themes and premise of this show seem COMPLETELY taboo/wrong but Im not that closed minded to give it an F. I havent seen it but I might eventually pick up the boxset on sale and see the show for the romance and not the...incest.
IMM Strawberry Eggs is pretty taboo in some cases too, so it wouldnt be the first time I saw something like this.

sheepy

03-14-2005, 12:31 PM

I'm a very tolerant person, so, it's no surprise that none of the themes brought up in this series bothered me. I like how they handle the subject matter in a very mature way and make it seem very realistic. There were many great scenes in this series. I will be picking up the rest of the series without a doubt! ^_^

B+

Scaramanga

03-14-2005, 02:31 PM

Wow, it's a real shame I came so late to this thread. I enjoyed Koi Kaze very much for the simple fact that it was a GOOD story. A+

Saying that, and having read a lot of the comments on this thread, I'd just like to pose a question: what exactly is societally wrong with incest between a brother and sister??

indigo0086

03-14-2005, 04:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
Wow, it's a real shame I came so late to this thread. I enjoyed Koi Kaze very much for the simple fact that it was a GOOD story. A+

Saying that, and having read a lot of the comments on this thread, I'd just like to pose a question: what exactly is societally wrong with incest between a brother and sister??

[/ QUOTE ]

when one is 12 years older than the other, then I could answer your question.

Scaramanga

03-14-2005, 04:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
indigo0086 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
Wow, it's a real shame I came so late to this thread. I enjoyed Koi Kaze very much for the simple fact that it was a GOOD story. A+

Saying that, and having read a lot of the comments on this thread, I'd just like to pose a question: what exactly is societally wrong with incest between a brother and sister??

[/ QUOTE ]

when one is 12 years older than the other, then I could answer your question.

[/ QUOTE ]
That's NOT what I asked, let's deal with one issue at a time here. Now care to try again?

Teiresias

03-14-2005, 04:30 PM

How 'bout hemophelia, cleft pallets and club feet?

Scaramanga

03-14-2005, 05:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
How 'bout hemophelia, cleft pallets and club feet?

[/ QUOTE ]
What does that have to do with incest??

(Yes, I have a point, I'm just being circuitous getting to it.) /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Rhodes

03-14-2005, 05:10 PM

Thats genetic reasons thou for not having kids if your closely related not social reasons not to have sex. One can have sex and not have kids... happens all the time.

I just think its cause for most people, we dont see the family members one grows up with as sex partners. I mean I have fond memories of my siblings but heck I also recall when they ratted me out, stole my stuff, lost my stuff and a whole list of crap they did to me or I to em /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Of course I have heard stories about how cousins who never met before fall in love at a family gathering. /shrug why I and I think most people have heard of the term "kissing cousins".

Who you fall in love is a matter of the heart, you cant control it. Doesnt matter if that person is a related to ya or the same gender or different religious/ethnic background. There have been a ton of social taboos about dating or marrying outside of ones "race" or religious group. We may accept inter-racial marriages now, but I still know people who dont think it isnt right and I know there are countries out there with communities that if one married outside of ones religious group, that would be grounds for death or extreme punishment.

I dont really care about incest either way as long as it's consentual between the parties involved. But then thats true for all sexual activities imo.

Scaramanga

03-14-2005, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Rhodes said:
Thats genetic reasons thou for not having kids if your closely related not social reasons not to have sex. One can have sex and not have kids... happens all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Damn, beat me to the punch. Yes, that was exactly my point. People are NOT animals, and as such we have a slew of options that don't result in childbirth. I'd also like to point out that children from an incestuous relationship do not result in defects 100% of the time.

So why exactly do we (well some of us) recoil in loathing when incest is discussed?

Magic_Knight

03-14-2005, 05:39 PM

This (http://samvak.tripod.com/incest.html) page talks about incest and the taboo associated with it.

The funniest line in there is "Having sex with a first-degree blood relative is like having sex with oneself."

Chris Beveridge

03-14-2005, 05:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Magic Knight said:
This (http://samvak.tripod.com/incest.html) page talks about incest and the taboo associated with it.

The funniest line in there is "Having sex with a first-degree blood relative is like having sex with oneself."

[/ QUOTE ]

The only "person" that can have a problem with that is Lazarus Long, and that's from him have sex with his twin sisters that were cloned from him.

Ah, if only people would read the Time Enough For Love and To Sail Beyond the Sunset novels and realize that *sex isn't bad* we'd have a hell of a lot less Mrs. Grundy's around mucking things up.

MalrocK

03-14-2005, 06:25 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
Rhodes said:
Thats genetic reasons thou for not having kids if your closely related not social reasons not to have sex. One can have sex and not have kids... happens all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]
Damn, beat me to the punch. Yes, that was exactly my point. People are NOT animals, and as such we have a slew of options that don't result in childbirth. I'd also like to point out that children from an incestuous relationship do not result in defects 100% of the time.

So why exactly do we (well some of us) recoil in loathing when incest is discussed?

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/relief1.gif I wish I had a hot younger sister /images/graemlins/relief1.gif

Fluffy

03-14-2005, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
==
Ah, if only people would read the Time Enough For Love and To Sail Beyond the Sunset novels and realize that *sex isn't bad* we'd have a hell of a lot less Mrs. Grundy's around mucking things up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Amen to that! Preach on Brother Chris! Less demonization, more fornication!

I wonder how many "guys" here would be bitching about this show if the two siblings were both sisters. Eh? I doubt half of the people here would have a problem with that anime clichÃ©. When women are the commodity, itâ€™s â€œa-okayâ€?, but when it becomes the slightest bit "forbidden", itâ€™s atrocious.

A kiddy pool of double standards.

GHardin

03-14-2005, 06:44 PM

Just got this today, but have yet to really see it....after reading some comments, I think I will try to give it a go tonight. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

MalrocK

03-14-2005, 06:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
GHardin said:
Just got this today, but have yet to really see it....after reading some comments, I think I will try to give it a go tonight. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It was awesome! Not nearly as creepy or wrong as a lot of folks are making it out to be /images/graemlins/happy.gif. Plus the sister is hella cute!

christianlf

03-14-2005, 06:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flood said:
I wonder how many "guys" here would be bitching about this show if the two siblings were both sisters. Eh? I doubt half of the people here would have a problem with that anime clichÃ©. When women are the commodity, itâ€™s â€œa-okayâ€?, but when it becomes the slightest bit "forbidden", itâ€™s atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would complain! I can't get into it when there's no penis to relate to...

MalrocK

03-14-2005, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
ChristianLF said:
[ QUOTE ]
Flood said:
I wonder how many "guys" here would be bitching about this show if the two siblings were both sisters. Eh? I doubt half of the people here would have a problem with that anime clichÃ©. When women are the commodity, itâ€™s â€œa-okayâ€?, but when it becomes the slightest bit "forbidden", itâ€™s atrocious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would complain! I can't get into it when there's no penis to relate to...

[/ QUOTE ]

bah! Penises are overrated, a stick could do the same job

Scaramanga

03-14-2005, 08:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flood said:
I wonder how many "guys" here would be bitching about this show if the two siblings were both sisters. Eh?

[/ QUOTE ]
Zing!
(Although, why is "guys" in quotes?? Are some of us not "manly" enough?? /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif)

Personally I'd rather see Koi Kaze-esque incest any day of the week over some sister/sister(/sister/sister/sister/ad nauseam) yuri action.

MalrocK

03-14-2005, 08:58 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
Flood said:
I wonder how many "guys" here would be bitching about this show if the two siblings were both sisters. Eh?

[/ QUOTE ]
Zing!
(Although, why is "guys" in quotes?? Are some of us not "manly" enough?? /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif)

Personally I'd rather see Koi Kaze-esque incest any day of the week over some sister/sister(/sister/sister/sister/ad nauseam) yuri action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes "Some" of us are not "manly" enough and when I say "Some" I mean you Scaramanga /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Teiresias

03-14-2005, 09:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Rhodes said:
Thats genetic reasons thou for not having kids if your closely related not social reasons not to have sex. One can have sex and not have kids... happens all the time.

I just think its cause for most people, we dont see the family members one grows up with as sex partners. I mean I have fond memories of my siblings but heck I also recall when they ratted me out, stole my stuff, lost my stuff and a whole list of crap they did to me or I to em /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Of course I have heard stories about how cousins who never met before fall in love at a family gathering. /shrug why I and I think most people have heard of the term "kissing cousins".

Who you fall in love is a matter of the heart, you cant control it. Doesnt matter if that person is a related to ya or the same gender or different religious/ethnic background. There have been a ton of social taboos about dating or marrying outside of ones "race" or religious group. We may accept inter-racial marriages now, but I still know people who dont think it isnt right and I know there are countries out there with communities that if one married outside of ones religious group, that would be grounds for death or extreme punishment.

I dont really care about incest either way as long as it's consentual between the parties involved. But then thats true for all sexual activities imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excuse me for the flip response...Clearly this conversation was meant to take a more serious turn.

1. I don't care who sleeps together--presidents/interns, brothers/sisters, priests/alter boys, otaku/sailor moon dolls, etc. I have no moral qualms one way or the other. Personally, I'm really looking forward to watching Koi Kaze.

2. Healthcare problems are social problems.

3. While a portion of the population may have birth control options, a substantial portion either cannot afford, or has no access to such methods. We may not have such access in this country very much longer. If you think I'm wrong, try watching the court cases that have been regularly chipping away at your so-called "reproductive rights."

4. The idea that "love conquers all," and everything else is secondary seems rather quaint & naive to this fogey. More power to you however...I hope this proves to be the case in your life.

There, I feel better now that I got that off of my chest! /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

Teiresias

03-14-2005, 09:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
People are NOT animals

[/ QUOTE ]

If people are "NOT animals," what are they?

I can assure you that there are plenty of "animals" round here***no Malrock, I'm not talking about you this time***

I think I answered the morality issue in my prior post.

Suwako Moriya

03-14-2005, 09:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Flood said:
I wonder how many "guys" here would be bitching about this show if the two siblings were both sisters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. To be honest the idea of the incest angle never really bothered me that much. Plus anime has covered several taboo subjects and etc. So it's not like this is a big deal. Not to mention the incest angle isn't anything new to me. I just fall under the ideal that the show put me to sleep. Still I do have to give the show props for how it treats the whole incest thing. Based on what I saw it seemed to take it seriously rather than treat it as a simple fanservice element. So it was a change of pace.

Scaramanga

03-14-2005, 10:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
People are NOT animals

[/ QUOTE ]
If people are "NOT animals," what are they?

[/ QUOTE ]
Animals who can REASON. Who are intelligent/willful enough to override the rutting/mating instinct in lower species. We are not driven by instinct for the most part.

jojo_home

03-14-2005, 11:36 PM

I wouldn't like that either, but at least they can't get pregnant with mentally disabled babies in your example.

jojo_home

03-14-2005, 11:39 PM

incest aside, the show struck me as being more like a daytime soap than anything else. That is neither a criticism or a recommendation. Just an observation.

Fluffy

03-15-2005, 12:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Leaping Larry Jojo said:
=
I wouldn't like that either, but at least they can't get pregnant with mentally disabled babies in your example.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's...a...cartoon. So, robots can destroy Tokyo over & over without recrimination, eh? How is one any different? Itâ€™s just someoneâ€™s imagination.

BonifaceVIII

03-15-2005, 12:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Rhodes said:
I dont really care about incest either way as long as it's consentual between the parties involved. But then thats true for all sexual activities imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, someone could open up the radical feminist Pandora's Box of "informed consent"...

Teiresias

03-15-2005, 07:10 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
People are NOT animals

[/ QUOTE ]
If people are "NOT animals," what are they?

[/ QUOTE ]
Animals who can REASON. Who are intelligent/willful enough to override the rutting/mating instinct in lower species. We are not driven by instinct for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]

For someone whose taking a modern tack on the whole incest thing, you use some incredibly 19th century syntax (e.g., "People are not animals," "animals who can REASON," "the rutting/mating instinct," "lower species").

By the way, I'm no neuro-physicist, but I believe the thinking is that a substantial majority of our neural activity is "instinctual" rather than "reasoned."

Remembering that we were being "circuitous," have we gotten near your point? If so it has eluded me. What does "REASON" have to do with "incest?" Isn't "incest" just more "rutting/mating?"

Teiresias

03-15-2005, 07:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:

Ah, if only people would read the Time Enough For Love and To Sail Beyond the Sunset novels and realize that *sex isn't bad* we'd have a hell of a lot less Mrs. Grundy's around mucking things up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to get all moral majority on you, but do you really equate the "last taboo" with a little straight-forward fornication? You have been watching too much hentai! /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

Teiresias

03-15-2005, 07:23 AM

[ QUOTE ]
BonifaceVIII said:

Of course, someone could open up the radical feminist Pandora's Box of "informed consent"...

[/ QUOTE ]

Your namesake would be lighting these people up in the town square /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/devil.gif

Chris Beveridge

03-15-2005, 07:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:

Ah, if only people would read the Time Enough For Love and To Sail Beyond the Sunset novels and realize that *sex isn't bad* we'd have a hell of a lot less Mrs. Grundy's around mucking things up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to get all moral majority on you, but do you really equate the "last taboo" with a little straight-forward fornication? You have been watching too much hentai! /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all just sex, we're not talking procreation here. But honestly, I'm a far left leaning Massachussetts liberal my friend. I've grown up in an atmosphere where talking about this kind of stuff started really early and I was reading sex themed novels such as the Lazarus and Stranger in a Strange Land books when I was ten or eleven. I just have very skewed views on these things than the mainstream.

Teiresias

03-15-2005, 08:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:

Ah, if only people would read the Time Enough For Love and To Sail Beyond the Sunset novels and realize that *sex isn't bad* we'd have a hell of a lot less Mrs. Grundy's around mucking things up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to get all moral majority on you, but do you really equate the "last taboo" with a little straight-forward fornication? You have been watching too much hentai! /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It's all just sex, we're not talking procreation here. But honestly, I'm a far left leaning Massachussetts liberal my friend. I've grown up in an atmosphere where talking about this kind of stuff started really early and I was reading sex themed novels such as the Lazarus and Stranger in a Strange Land books when I was ten or eleven. I just have very skewed views on these things than the mainstream.

[/ QUOTE ]

I provide my bona fides so as not to be confused with "the mainstream:"

--UC Berkeley: Sporting a "proud to be a liberal" cap
--Xaviera Hollander's "Happy Hooker" at 13 (my Mom wrote the note that got me into the adult lit section of the West Covina library). I have such fond memories of Xaviera's antics!
--"Emmanuelle" at 14 (aahh, French erotic lit: Ever read "Story of the Eye" by Georges Bataille? Definitely one that pushes the envelope!)

I just like to play devil's advocate /images/graemlins/devil.gif

Scaramanga

03-15-2005, 09:00 AM

EDIT: I apologize, I didn't mean for this to become somthing that would be better suited to OT. My problem is, I find it disappointing that people would dismiss such a quality show just because it has some themes that are regarded by the majority as being "bad".

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
People are NOT animals

[/ QUOTE ]
If people are "NOT animals," what are they?

[/ QUOTE ]
Animals who can REASON. Who are intelligent/willful enough to override the rutting/mating instinct in lower species. We are not driven by instinct for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]
For someone whose taking a modern tack on the whole incest thing, you use some incredibly 19th century syntax (e.g., "People are not animals," "animals who can REASON," "the rutting/mating instinct," "lower species").

[/ QUOTE ]
First, I don't think I'm taking a modern tack, per se, just a reasonably informed one. Also, I'm not sure what my syntax has to do with my ideology.

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
By the way, I'm no neuro-physicist, but I believe the thinking is that a substantial majority of our neural activity is "instinctual" rather than "reasoned."

[/ QUOTE ]
And by the way, I'm no neuro-physicist either, but I believe that humans can override ANY instinctual re/action.

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
Remembering that we were being "circuitous," have we gotten near your point? If so it has eluded me. What does "REASON" have to do with "incest?" Isn't "incest" just more "rutting/mating?"

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I did take a rather bad route to make my point. My point is this, unlike animals who may (or may not) interbreed based on natural instincts/drives, we as a higher species can in fact CHOOSE not only who to have sex with, but HOW. Certainly I'll agree that IN the 19th century when birth control and medical science wasn't nearly as advanced as it is today, a societal loathing of incest was probably warranted (although not, as has been pointed out, amongst many aristocratic families.) However, in this day and age, I find it ridiculous to adhere to such outdated concepts. And as of yet, no one has said WHY sleeping with a sister or brother would be bad.

[ QUOTE ]
BonifaceVIII said:
[ QUOTE ]
Rhodes said:
I dont really care about incest either way as long as it's consentual between the parties involved. But then thats true for all sexual activities imo.

[/ QUOTE ]
Of course, someone could open up the radical feminist Pandora's Box of "informed consent"...

[/ QUOTE ]
And once again proving why radical fems are just plain crazy. I know the argument is that they will never know how they will feel AFTER an act (at least that's how I've heard them attack surrogacy.) Essentially (as I understand it) they want to nullify any contract (including sexual relations) because a woman may feel different about it later. The problem is, if women cannot be be held responsible for their own actions, then why don't they go back to attitudes of decades past where women were chattel. Like I said redfems are crazy.

BonifaceVIII

03-15-2005, 09:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
And as of yet, no one has said WHY sleeping with a sister or brother would be bad.

[/ QUOTE ]
Let's channel Andrea "all women are lesbians and all penetration is an act of violence against women" Dworkin for a second, just because it's fun.

Incest can be construed as an act of exploitation when the brother/sister and age difference power dynamics are taken into account. Much like father/daughter incest, the man (rapist /images/graemlins/tongue.gif) takes advantage of a familial trust relationship to fulfill his own sexual ends. Any desire borne out of that exploitation in the victim is due to confusion and coercion.

Radical feminists are crazy, but they can talk their way out of any situation.

*slaps an ALL MEN RAPE bumper sticker on his computer*

Teiresias

03-15-2005, 10:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
I find it disappointing that people would dismiss such a quality show just because it has some themes that are regarded by the majority as being "bad".

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't know if you're including me in this group, I'm not dismissing Koi Kaze . All the controversy makes me want to start it tonight! /images/graemlins/devil.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
People are NOT animals

[/ QUOTE ]
If people are "NOT animals," what are they?

[/ QUOTE ]
Animals who can REASON. Who are intelligent/willful enough to override the rutting/mating instinct in lower species. We are not driven by instinct for the most part.

[/ QUOTE ]
For someone whose taking a modern tack on the whole incest thing, you use some incredibly 19th century syntax (e.g., "People are not animals," "animals who can REASON," "the rutting/mating instinct," "lower species").

[/ QUOTE ]
First, I don't think I'm taking a modern tack, per se, just a reasonably informed one. Also, I'm not sure what my syntax has to do with my ideology.

[/ QUOTE ]

--Modern in the sense of not finding the whole notion disgusting (a fairly common mindset to this day--as we have seen here)
--Not to warp off into post-modernism, but the phraseology you have used in at least a few of your posts regarding incest has reminded me of a 19th century western discourse of science/progress/reason etc. These types of phrases are, for some people, ideologically loaded.

At the same time, the originators of this discourse would have found the notion of incest to be sick at best. That is why I found this component of your argument to be ironic, if not contradictory.

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
By the way, I'm no neuro-physicist, but I believe the thinking is that a substantial majority of our neural activity is "instinctual" rather than "reasoned."

[/ QUOTE ]
And by the way, I'm no neuro-physicist either, but I believe that humans can override ANY instinctual re/action.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like an erection? Breathing? Your heart beat? "ANY"?

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
Remembering that we were being "circuitous," have we gotten near your point? If so it has eluded me. What does "REASON" have to do with "incest?" Isn't "incest" just more "rutting/mating?"

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah I did take a rather bad route to make my point. My point is this, unlike animals who may (or may not) interbreed based on natural instincts/drives, we as a higher species can in fact CHOOSE not only who to have sex with, but HOW. Certainly I'll agree that IN the 19th century when birth control and medical science wasn't nearly as advanced as it is today, a societal loathing of incest was probably warranted (although not, as has been pointed out, amongst many aristocratic families.) However, in this day and age, I find it ridiculous to adhere to such outdated concepts. And as of yet, no one has said WHY sleeping with a sister or brother would be bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok--let me take a crack at your last point. Since we've /images/graemlins/horse.gif on the reproductive part, let's take a look at the socio-psychological: Brother has hot and heavy relationship with cute, younger sister. Brother meets someone his own age and with similar interests, sister remains in love with brother; brother falls in love, and dumps his sister. How does this impact the cohesion of the nuclear family? What are this family's Thanksgivings like?

I'm being facetious, but it sounds like an all-around bad idea to me.

indigo0086

03-15-2005, 11:29 AM

I'm not liberal or conservative or anything, my views tend to be either deviant or progressive, whichever you like to call it. I mean I felt alright that they found something, but towards the end chidori said something that made me think. When she was leaving Koshiro's apartment when nanoka was prepring dinner, Chidori says that they'll make their parents unhappy. that really made me kind of lean the other way as to what to think. But by the last episode I didn't have an opinion one way or the other, I just liked the whole story.

Teiresias

03-15-2005, 12:13 PM

I'm not ignoring your post, but as I haven't seen the series, I'm hesitant to read your "spoiler."

wanfu2k1

03-15-2005, 12:15 PM

Oh man good thing this thread was brought up. It just reminded me that I needed to order this /images/graemlins/happy.gif

AmericanBeauty

03-15-2005, 08:31 PM

AmericanBeauty

03-15-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Malrock said:
bah! Penises are overrated, a stick could do the same job

[/ QUOTE ]
A stick can shoot baby juice??

*smack*

MalrocK

03-15-2005, 08:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Cherry Blossom said:
[ QUOTE ]
Malrock said:
bah! Penises are overrated, a stick could do the same job

[/ QUOTE ]
A stick can shoot baby juice??

*smack*

[/ QUOTE ]

lol, I've never heard it called "baby juice" before /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif. I like that /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Scaramanga

03-15-2005, 09:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Malrock said:
[ QUOTE ]
Cherry Blossom said:
[ QUOTE ]
Malrock said:
bah! Penises are overrated, a stick could do the same job

[/ QUOTE ]
A stick can shoot baby juice??

*smack*

[/ QUOTE ]
lol, I've never heard it called "baby juice" before /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif. I like that /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Not half as funny as hearing Amanda Winn Lee call it "baby batter". /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Vicserr

03-16-2005, 06:34 AM

Just finished watching this, I've found it interesting, althought a little slow for my taste, visually, this show is very pleasing to the eye and basically the story is taking it's time(there's no reason to rush things, this is not hentai) and being a controvertial theme, they should take their time... let's see were the next volume takes us as we haven't entered "dangerous" territory as of yet

my grades(B/positive)

SpaceButler

03-16-2005, 10:09 AM

So far i like it. Good stuff. B+

SpaceButler

03-16-2005, 10:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
I'd just like to pose a question: what exactly is societally wrong with incest between a brother and sister??

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont really know how you can ask that. I mean, i like this show so far, but its because its fake. But to try to put out the idea that theres nothing wrong with incest is kinda strange.

I can only imagine that people who would sleep with a member of their own family would have to have some very bad emotional problems. Not to mention any emotional/pyschological problems that would spawn from such an encounter.

Your supposed to love your family like a family, not like a girlfriend or boyfriend.

And no im NOT a conservitive, i dont go to church and im not a big moralist, and i even like this show were talking about(well at least the firstdisc). I also think this has nothing to do with those. anyone who lusts after or has a strong desire to have a sexual relationship with a member of their own home, their own family, has some very serious issues.

As a matter of fact, i cant belive this is a subject that needs to be debated...

Scaramanga

03-16-2005, 02:50 PM

[ QUOTE ]
SpaceButler said:
[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
I'd just like to pose a question: what exactly is societally wrong with incest between a brother and sister??

[/ QUOTE ]
I dont really know how you can ask that. I mean, i like this show so far, but its because its fake. But to try to put out the idea that theres nothing wrong with incest is kinda strange.

[/ QUOTE ]
I never said there wasn't anything wrong with or promoted incest. I was just questioning why people felt that it's wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
SpaceButler said:
I can only imagine that people who would sleep with a member of their own family would have to have some very bad emotional problems. Not to mention any emotional/pyschological problems that would spawn from such an encounter.

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Any more or less so than the emotional problems that result from having a relationship with anyone who ISN'T your family? If both parties are accepting and mentally/emotionally mature enough to handle themselves, why should it matter whether they are brother and sister or not?

[ QUOTE ]
SpaceButler said:
Your supposed to love your family like a family, not like a girlfriend or boyfriend.

[/ QUOTE ]
Says who? Like I said earlier, that's one of the beauties of the human mind. We have the ability to re-evaluate and reject societal norms.

[ QUOTE ]
SpaceButler said:
Anyone who lusts after or has a strong desire to have a sexual relationship with a member of their own home, their own family, has some very serious issues.

[/ QUOTE ]
All you've done is said that they have some issues. You haven't made a good argument over WHY it's even an issue to begin with.

I understand that YOU think it's wrong, but you haven't said WHY you think it's wrong. And because society "told you so" isn't a very good answer, as far as I'm concerned.

As for why this is even debatable, well it's one of the things I like about this show. It isn't a cookie-cutter premise slapped over a romance story. By the end of the series (if you make it that far) I guarantee you'll be thinking hard about it.

Donovan

03-17-2005, 12:25 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
I was just questioning why people felt that it's wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't know how I feel about it personally...I don't have siblings and can't really imagine the relationship to be honest. If it helps answer your question I can repeat the argument I've heard (beyond the genetic one). What I've heard said is that family should be a safe place where you will always be loved. Basically the same arguments as not dating in the workplace I think, only moreso since you only have one family. In other words, family is hard enough without adding romance and romance is hard enough without adding family...it would be devastating if a bad romance caused you to lose both at the same time.

EDIT: Incidentally, there is apparently a natural tendency for genetic sexual attraction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_sexual_attraction) that can lead adult siblings seperated at birth to be attracted to one another. It is naturally surpressed when you grow up together by something called the Westermarck effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westermarck_effect).

PsychoRabbitt

03-20-2005, 09:03 PM

This just came in yesterday (gorgeous box art, Geneon has proven their dominence in the box field yet again) and I started watching it tonight.

I gotta say, I don't really see what the big deal is. I mean, it's being portrayed around here like the Koishiro and Nanaka are about half a second away from knockin' boots at any given moment. The only time I'm really picking up sexual tension is when it's played up for comedy in the next episode previews.

I mean yes, he gets a bit flustered seeing her underwear hanging out to dry, but what guy doesn't have the same reaction to seeing women's undies belonging to his sister/mother/daughter?

PsychoRabbitt

03-20-2005, 09:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
Wow, it's a real shame I came so late to this thread. I enjoyed Koi Kaze very much for the simple fact that it was a GOOD story. A+

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That's what I was thinking as I read the commentary. Though some people were way off base (and I'm not saying who), most of it was extremely thought provoking - something we almost never see around here. I only wish Chris had waited until it was around the time of the release to review this so I could have watched it and given an informed opinion in the midst of all that.

PsychoRabbitt

03-20-2005, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Chris Beveridge said:

Ah, if only people would read the Time Enough For Love and To Sail Beyond the Sunset novels and realize that *sex isn't bad* we'd have a hell of a lot less Mrs. Grundy's around mucking things up.

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There are so many things I could say in agreement that would only take this discussion away from one of societal morality and into political and religious morality. /images/graemlins/relief1.gif

B-Rad Lascelle

03-20-2005, 11:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PsychoRabbitt said:
I mean yes, he gets a bit flustered seeing her underwear hanging out to dry, but what guy doesn't have the same reaction to seeing women's undies belonging to his sister/mother/daughter?

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you miss the part where Koshiro sniffed Nanoka's underwear, got caught and promptly went upstairs to jerk off? That's not exactly normal behavior. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

PsychoRabbitt

03-21-2005, 12:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
B-Rad Lascelle said:
[ QUOTE ]
PsychoRabbitt said:
I mean yes, he gets a bit flustered seeing her underwear hanging out to dry, but what guy doesn't have the same reaction to seeing women's undies belonging to his sister/mother/daughter?

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you miss the part where Koshiro sniffed Nanoka's underwear, got caught and promptly went upstairs to jerk off? That's not exactly normal behavior. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That happens in the fourth episode. As I stated, at the time of that post I was only as far as episode three.

And yeah... that's when the show started getting freaky... /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif

Edit: Reread my post... apparently I DIDN'T state that I was only through the third episode. Well, I was at the time. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Donovan

03-21-2005, 12:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
B-Rad Lascelle said:
Did you miss the part where Koshiro sniffed Nanoka's underwear, got caught and promptly went upstairs to jerk off? That's not exactly normal behavior. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]I must be reading too many H manga, because I guessed what was under the spoiler tag without having seen the show. /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif

Scaramanga

03-21-2005, 01:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
B-Rad Lascelle said:
[ QUOTE ]
PsychoRabbitt said:
I mean yes, he gets a bit flustered seeing her underwear hanging out to dry, but what guy doesn't have the same reaction to seeing women's undies belonging to his sister/mother/daughter?

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you miss the part where Koshiro sniffed Nanoka's underwear, got caught and promptly went upstairs to jerk off? That's not exactly normal behavior. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Not normal?? I seem to recall Matthew Modine sniffing Linda Fiorentino's underwear in Vision Quest (and that was a fairly mainstream title from the mid-80s.) Admittedly she wasn't his sister, but I don't find the sniffing and subsequent wanking to be all that abnormal. Certainly not something I find surprising at all from Koushiro's emotionally/physically stunted character.

porkchopexpress

03-21-2005, 04:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
B-Rad Lascelle said:
[ QUOTE ]
PsychoRabbitt said:
I mean yes, he gets a bit flustered seeing her underwear hanging out to dry, but what guy doesn't have the same reaction to seeing women's undies belonging to his sister/mother/daughter?

[/ QUOTE ]
Did you miss the part where Koshiro sniffed Nanoka's underwear, got caught and promptly went upstairs to jerk off? That's not exactly normal behavior. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Not normal?? I seem to recall Matthew Modine sniffing Linda Fiorentino's underwear in Vision Quest (and that was a fairly mainstream title from the mid-80s.) Admittedly she wasn't his sister, but I don't find the sniffing and subsequent wanking to be all that abnormal. Certainly not something I find surprising at all from Koushiro's emotionally/physically stunted character.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just seems like Koshiro's way of dealing with feelings he doesn't want nor understand. Sounds like good drama to me.

Tokachan

03-21-2005, 04:37 PM

A-/Positive. I'm very surprised at how maturely the relationship between Koshiro and Nanoka is being handled. The concept of the story (and the underwear sniffing thing) is still a little disturbing, but in all honestly, I'm looking forward to watching more of this show and seeing how everything is going to turn out in the long run.

B-Rad Lascelle

03-21-2005, 05:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tokanabe said:
A-/Positive. I'm very surprised at how maturely the relationship between Koshiro and Nanoka is being handled. The concept of the story (and the underwear sniffing thing) is still a little disturbing, but in all honestly, I'm looking forward to watching more of this show and seeing how everything is going to turn out in the long run.

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That's the one common thread you'll be impressed by for the duration of the show. It's handled maturely from beginning to end and the interactions between all of the characters are all the more engrossing as a result. It's a fascinating character study through and through.