te-form iku, te-form kuru

I'm embarassed to admit that when faced with multiple onslaughts of these within the same passage my memory is blurring.

Can someone please give me a quick reference on the differences between:

te-verb form iku
te-verb form itte
te-verb form itta

te-verb form kuru
te-verb form kite
te-verb form kita

Thanks.

[wrex]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanatos said:
I'm embarassed to admit that when faced with multiple onslaughts of these within the same passage my memory is blurring.

Can someone please give me a quick reference on the differences between:

te-verb form iku
te-verb form itte
te-verb form itta

te-verb form kuru
te-verb form kite
te-verb form kita

Thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you mean by the "te-verb" forms of the verbs you listed. The first verb, "iku" means "to go," and is the infinitive or dictionary form. "Itte" is the "-te" form and is used when the verb is used in a combination with other verbs (such as "itte kimasu~" (I'm going~)). It could also be used as a command form for the word "to speak" ("iu"); "itte!" (say it!). "Itta" is the "-ta" or past tense form; "omise ni itta" (I went to the store).

Similarly, "kuru" is the irregular verb meaning "to come." The "-te" form is "kite" ("kite kudasai" (please come); or command form ("koko ni kite!" (come here!)). And "kita" is the past tense form; "okakyusan ga kita" (the customers have come).

These are all informal forms.

I hope that clears things up.

[quenelf]

I think the original poster means e.g. (I picked the verbs �� and 買� to use at the beginning):

motte iku = take with and go (carrying something with you)

motte itte = please take and go (short for motte itte kudasai)

motte itta = took (something) with me and went

For this last one, are you sure that's really what you are asking about, i.e. it's really iku you're thinking of and not iru or something?


Anyway, onto the second half

katte kuru = buy then come back (= English 'go and buy')

katte kite = please go and buy (short for katte kite kudasai)

katte kita = (I) went and bought something.


That might be what was meant. Example sentences would probably help clarify it, though /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Also, standard disclaimer - my Japanese is crappy, I answer questions here just for my personal practice/interest and my answers are often wrong. Normally somebody who's more skilled will post to correct any serious errors I make.

--quen

[wrex]

[ QUOTE ]
quen said:
I think the original poster means e.g. (I picked the verbs �� and 買� to use at the beginning):

motte iku = take with and go (carrying something with you)

motte itte = please take and go (short for motte itte kudasai)

motte itta = took (something) with me and went

For this last one, are you sure that's really what you are asking about, i.e. it's really iku you're thinking of and not iru or something?


Anyway, onto the second half

katte kuru = buy then come back (= English 'go and buy')

katte kite = please go and buy (short for katte kite kudasai)

katte kita = (I) went and bought something.


That might be what was meant. Example sentences would probably help clarify it, though /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Also, standard disclaimer - my Japanese is crappy, I answer questions here just for my personal practice/interest and my answers are often wrong. Normally somebody who's more skilled will post to correct any serious errors I make.

--quen

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, that makes sense now. My brain wasn't working so well because I had just come back from a long day at work.

[Eishagishi]

æŒ?ã?£ã?¦è¡Œã??
ã‚‚ã?£ã?¦ã?„ã??
Motte iku: To take (something along)
����る
ã‚‚ã?£ã?¦ã??ã‚‹
Motte kuru: To bring (something along)

勉強ã?—ã?¦ã?„ã?? <-- hiragana for 'iku' since it no longer indicates movement in this usage
ã?¹ã‚“ã??ょã?†ã?—ã?¦ã?„ã??
Benkyou shite iku: To study (from now into the future, away from the present)

勉強ã?—ã?¦ã??ã‚‹ <-- hiragana for 'kuru' since it no longer indicates movement in this usage
ã?¹ã‚“ã??ょã?†ã?—ã?¦ã??ã‚‹
Benkyou shite kuru: To study (from the past to now, towards the present)

見����
�����
Mite itta: (S/He) watched (objective, 3rd person, narrator's view; often used in novels)

[tablesalt]

[ QUOTE ]
Eishagishi said:
勉強ã?—ã?¦ã?„ã?? <-- hiragana for 'iku' since it no longer indicates movement in this usage
ã?¹ã‚“ã??ょã?†ã?—ã?¦ã?„ã??
Benkyou shite iku: To study (from now into the future, away from the present)

勉強ã?—ã?¦ã??ã‚‹ <-- hiragana for 'kuru' since it no longer indicates movement in this usage
ã?¹ã‚“ã??ょã?†ã?—ã?¦ã??ã‚‹
Benkyou shite kuru: To study (from the past to now, towards the present)


[/ QUOTE ]

We did this in our Japanese class last year, and I just could not understand it. The the blank then go, blank then come meanings are easy, but the continuing action part confused me. Thanks for giving clear examples of it.

[JohnThacker]

[ QUOTE ]
Eishagishi said:
æŒ?ã?£ã?¦è¡Œã??
ã‚‚ã?£ã?¦ã?„ã??
Motte iku: To take (something along)
����る
ã‚‚ã?£ã?¦ã??ã‚‹
Motte kuru: To bring (something along)

勉強ã?—ã?¦ã?„ã?? <-- hiragana for 'iku' since it no longer indicates movement in this usage
ã?¹ã‚“ã??ょã?†ã?—ã?¦ã?„ã??
Benkyou shite iku: To study (from now into the future, away from the present)

勉強ã?—ã?¦ã??ã‚‹ <-- hiragana for 'kuru' since it no longer indicates movement in this usage
ã?¹ã‚“ã??ょã?†ã?—ã?¦ã??ã‚‹
Benkyou shite kuru: To study (from the past to now, towards the present)


[/ QUOTE ]

Very nice explanation of it. I'd add that plenty of people use the hiragana for "iku" and "kuru" even when they do indicate movement. In general though, as you say, hiragana are almost always used when verbs are used in a "helping verb" sense, with some sort of derived meaning. The same applies to "oku" for doing something ahead of time/in preparation for later, for example.

-te kuru often can be translated into something like "is starting to X," while -te kita is "has started to X." Both are frequent used for continuing actions that happen a little bit at a time or continuously. Like "ame ga futte kita" for "It has started raining."

[beatmania]

[ QUOTE ]
tablesalt said:

We did this in our Japanese class last year, and I just could not understand it. The the blank then go, blank then come meanings are easy, but the continuing action part confused me. Thanks for giving clear examples of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

As with all things, you just have to pratice it in context a million times and people can throw any combination of these compound verbs at you, no problem.

[Eishagishi]

[ QUOTE ]
JohnThacker said:
Very nice explanation of it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks! And thanks for the additional fine points. I just paraphrased the explanations and examples straight out of our chosen textbook (Nakama 2). Tutoring and having to explain some of this stuff over and over, I'm getting to be like the old man in Monty Python and the Holy Grail... "I'm getting better." /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Thanks for the help.

Two other forms I'm seeing a lot but I don't really know what they mean:

Iki (è¡Œã??) + verb

Example: è¡Œã??漬ã?‹ã‚‹ (iki tsukaru) tsukaru = to soak

Verb stem (masu form without the masu) + kiru (切る)

分�り切る (wakari kiru)

[JohnThacker]

[ QUOTE ]
Thanatos said:
Thanks for the help.

Two other forms I'm seeing a lot but I don't really know what they mean:

Iki (è¡Œã??) + verb

Example: è¡Œã??漬ã?‹ã‚‹ (iki tsukaru) tsukaru = to soak


[/ QUOTE ]

So, the first, most common usage of this is "going," which can be literal:
è¡Œã??æ?¥ - going and coming
è¡Œã??ç?€ã?? - (go and) arrive at, end up
è¡Œã??交ã?† - go back and forth, come and go

Or more figurative:
è¡Œã??é?•ã?† - go amiss, go astray, misunderstand (each other)
è¡Œã??é?Žã?Žã‚‹ - go too far, go to extremes
è¡Œã??è©°ã?¾ã‚‹ - reach an impass, deadlock, come to the end of your rope
è¡Œã??当ã?Ÿã‚‹ - to hit, run into, come against (going out and then hitting)

Sometimes it makes more sense to think of the "iki" as being affected by the latter part:
è¡Œã??始ã‚?ã‚‹ - to get going, to start off
è¡Œã??æ*¢ã?¾ã‚Š - a dead end

One derived meaning is the idea of a setting out on a journey, which becomes stretched into the idea of setting out or moving towards an objective. So:

è¡Œã??渡る - to diffuse, to spread out all over (the process of going out and crossing over to somewhere else)
è¡Œã??届ã?? - to be meticulous, careful, attentive, tactful, considerate, thorough (going out and doing things so that you can reach or arrive at a goal, realize or obtain an objective)

I suspect that your example either means a literally going somewhere and soaking (perhaps oneself in an onsen, which also sometimes is written with a different kanji- è¡Œã??浸ã?‹ã‚‹), or starting to move so that you'll end up soaking/submerged, i.e., beginning to soak oneself/lower oneself into the bath.

[ QUOTE ]

Verb stem (masu form without the masu) + kiru (切る)

分�り切る (wakari kiru)

[/ QUOTE ]

My J-E dictionary gives it as 終�り��やる, or "do until the end." A derived meaning coming from the basic meaning of to cut. (Think Atropos or the idea of cutting when harvesting if that helps.)

èª*ã?¿åˆ‡ã‚‹ - finish reading, read until the end
使�切る - use up (use until gone)
疲れã??ã‚‹ - be (completely) exhausted, be tired out
言�切る - insist, assert, affirm

For 分ã?‹ã‚Šåˆ‡ã‚‹ itself, my J-J dictionary defines it as é?“ç?†ã€?事情ã?ªã?©ã?Œå??分ã?«æ˜Žã‚‰ã?‹ã?«ã?ªã‚ ‹ã€‚ã?™ã?£ã?‹ã‚Šæ‰¿çŸ¥ã?™ã‚‹ã€‚ In other words to get to the point where one clearly and sufficiently understands a situation, the truth, etc., or to be fully convinced of something. To understand something to the uttermost, to understand completely or fully.

[quenelf]

Thanks for posting that John - even though unlike Thanatos I didn't really have a reason to need this right now, I found it really informative. Just like most of your posts. You should start charging for those words of wisdom, or something. It's pearls before swine out here. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Just to provide some trivia interest value to anyone else who reads this, and because the idea came into my head randomly, here are three Japanese expressions wwwjdic gives for 'pearls before swine', along with what appears to be their literal meaning:

豚ã?«çœŸç?* - literally does mean 'pearls to pigs', guess they got it from English. I'm always amazed by how many English idioms are used very similarly in Japanese.

猫��判 - (historic type of) gold coin to cats

�����れ - a treasure that its owner doesn't use

--quen, swine second-class

Thank you VERY MUCH! /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif