Censored - CMX: Tenjho Tenge - Fight 10

[Kiril]

This thread is a continuation of a long running discussion about the CMX release of Tenjho Tenge, which has been edited for content, mostly by the addition of bras and panties over the actual nudity.

This is the tenth thread on this subject. Note that some of the earlier forum threads on this topic have auto-expired.

I'd like to ask that people keep this thread focused on important updates and less on general chatter. After nine previous threads on this topic, I think it is fair to say that everyone has had a chance to express their general outrage or lack thereof on what CMX has done. However, no one wants people to simply forget what has happened to this book. Therefore, we will still have a thread on this topic, but I'm asking that people try to limit their postings to important updates and things that have not already been said in the previous nine threads.

We encourage everyone who is concerned about this to visit FIGHT: DC CMX - The Campaign for Uncensored Tenjho Tenge (http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/index2.html).

FIGHT: DC CMX is hosting all the information that has been unearthed in a clean and easy format and is acting as a central place for updates and information on the attempts to get the series released unedited. Conversation from the previous threads continues here. Please remember to keep civil in discussions here, thanks.

Want to contact CMX?

CMX Manga
DC Comics / Wildstorm Productions
888 Prospect Ave., Suite 240
La Jolla, CA 92037

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
Kiril said:
This thread is a continuation of a long running discussion about the CMX release of Tenjho Tenge, which has been edited for content, mostly by the addition of bras and panties over the actual nudity.

[/ QUOTE ]

The theme for the edits in the first book was mostly added bras to cover up nudity. The theme for the second is steam clouds and rearranged skirts, as will become apparent once things are sent up.

[Inkthinker]

The listed release date for vol. 3 is August 17 of this year. While they don't have a complete mockup on the CMX site yet, the image in place now is a zoomed in version of the original tank cover.

Since I haven't actually seen a copy of vol. 2, but I read the edit list, I surmise that they left in the attempted seduction of Aya by Chiaki?

At some point someone might consider keeping track of the story elements that are left in which bely the content's suitability for the young teen maket. You know, for irony's sake.

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
Inkthinker said:
Since I haven't actually seen a copy of vol. 2, but I read the edit list, I surmise that they left in the attempted seduction of Aya by Chiaki?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes. <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>There are steam clouds everywhere, and any place where 'touching' is occurring, all you see is the mouth or hand, but not the thing being touched.</span>

[Akasan]

Say, I just got my order last week of vol. 2 and I wanted to check something.

Is everybody seen or getting copies of vol. 2 with a giant sticker slapped on the cover promoting the DVD by Geneon.

I'm just wondering if I was shipped promo copies or something.

If it's intentional then... wow.

[Noodle]

[ QUOTE ]
Aka-san said:
Say, I just got my order last week of vol. 2 and I wanted to check something.

Is everybody seen or getting copies of vol. 2 with a giant sticker slapped on the cover promoting the DVD by Geneon.

I'm just wondering if I was shipped promo copies or something.

If it's intentional then... wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sticker is on all of the copies of the books I've seen at retail stores, so I'm guessing CMX slapped 'em on there in some sort of desperate marketing push.

[MrDisco]

hey akadot

copies shipped here in canada also had that obnoxious sticker :| just another way for cmx to walk all over this title.

[Rhodes]

Well the edited censored manga goes well with the anime version of the show. In fact if your only experience is with the anime then CMX's TenTen is perfect for ya.

[Skywise]

[ QUOTE ]
Noodle said:
The sticker is on all of the copies of the books I've seen at retail stores, so I'm guessing CMX slapped 'em on there in some sort of desperate marketing push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt they just "slapped" it on there, as that would be free advertising to Geneon. Usually money trades hands, or at least a mutual advertising deal to promote a property. CMX on its own would gain very little from promoting the anime.

[Noodle]

[ QUOTE ]
Skywise said:
[ QUOTE ]
Noodle said:
The sticker is on all of the copies of the books I've seen at retail stores, so I'm guessing CMX slapped 'em on there in some sort of desperate marketing push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt they just "slapped" it on there, as that would be free advertising to Geneon. Usually money trades hands, or at least a mutual advertising deal to promote a property. CMX on its own would gain very little from promoting the anime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Er...yes, I know that. And likely everyone else does too. I was being aloof for the fact that the advertising bucks for the anime-tie in sticker were probably CMX's next-best source of income on this title, given the (purported) number of lost sales of the books. Hence, "desperate marketing push."

[Skywise]

Oh heh. I was thinking you meant that slapping the stickers on would somehow increase the sales - guess that wasn't what you were referring to /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif.

What's this about "low sales" though? In one post I see someone mentioning how their comic store sold out, while in others I see people saying it's not selling well. Do we actually have any numbers or real indications how tenten vol 2 (vol 1 sales aren't exactly valid, since people didn't know when it first came out) is doing? The official release date isn't until June 1st so some places like Amazon are still not shipping it.

[Kiril]

[ QUOTE ]
Skywise said:

What's this about "low sales" though? In one post I see someone mentioning how their comic store sold out, while in others I see people saying it's not selling well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most people believe (or possibly just hope) it is not selling well, but some people note heavy activity in their local areas. It doesn't really matter though, as what we do know is that Volume 3 was solicited with a note to retailers that it was edited for content, so the sales are probably sufficient for CMX to continue, at least at this time.

[ QUOTE ]

Do we actually have any numbers or real indications how tenten vol 2 (vol 1 sales aren't exactly valid, since people didn't know when it first came out) is doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I believe this has been pretty well discussed in the previous threads.

[Skywise]

[ QUOTE ]
Kiril said:
[ QUOTE ]

Do we actually have any numbers or real indications how tenten vol 2 (vol 1 sales aren't exactly valid, since people didn't know when it first came out) is doing?

[/ QUOTE ]

No. I believe this has been pretty well discussed in the previous threads.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've been following since post 1, so I'm to date on the discussion so far. The question really is if people have any new information that confirms sales one way or the other. It's a bit frustrating to read people commenting on it doing badly/well, and when it comes right down to it no one has any real information either way.

It kind of reminds me of the (false) rumor that got started in the Acen thread in the conventions forum about dlw being laid off, just because he couldn't make it to the con. Gods know how many people read that and thought it was real.

[akoftroy]

Well, from what I've seen, the bookscan numbers for book one were "decent." Not great but not a huge bomb. It probably sold enough for CMX to make some profit on it.

[akcoll99]

[ QUOTE ]
akoftroy said:
Well, from what I've seen, the bookscan numbers for book one were "decent." Not great but not a huge bomb. It probably sold enough for CMX to make some profit on it.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I've heard too. I think what we're all really curious to see is what the figures will be for volume 2 now that the news about the editing is out. I pre-ordered a copy of volume 1 through my comic store before finding out about the hackjob. Since it was Diamond, my comic store was unable to return it, therefore it got chalked up as a sale even though my comic shop was nice enough to allow me to beg out of buying it... /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[Kodachi]

[ QUOTE ]
Skywise said:
[ QUOTE ]
Noodle said:
The sticker is on all of the copies of the books I've seen at retail stores, so I'm guessing CMX slapped 'em on there in some sort of desperate marketing push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt they just "slapped" it on there, as that would be free advertising to Geneon. Usually money trades hands, or at least a mutual advertising deal to promote a property. CMX on its own would gain very little from promoting the anime.

[/ QUOTE ]


"Mutual advertising deal"... Well, it'll be interesting to see if CMX gets cross promotional advertising via sticker on Geneon's TenTen DVDs.

[RaeS]

[ QUOTE ]
Kodachi said:
[ QUOTE ]
Skywise said:
[ QUOTE ]
Noodle said:
The sticker is on all of the copies of the books I've seen at retail stores, so I'm guessing CMX slapped 'em on there in some sort of desperate marketing push.

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt they just "slapped" it on there, as that would be free advertising to Geneon. Usually money trades hands, or at least a mutual advertising deal to promote a property. CMX on its own would gain very little from promoting the anime.

[/ QUOTE ]


"Mutual advertising deal"... Well, it'll be interesting to see if CMX gets cross promotional advertising via sticker on Geneon's TenTen DVDs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually I believe the Volume 1 box version comes with a sample pamphlet of the manga.

[Skywise]

[ QUOTE ]
kogalsin said:
Actually I believe the Volume 1 box version comes with a sample pamphlet of the manga.

[/ QUOTE ]

Is this the same one they've been handing out at different places? One of the local comic store had a bunch of them at the checkout counter. I was unable to convince the clerk to get rid of them unfortunately, and my friend who works there wasn't in &gt;_&gt;. I was very tempted to go find an internet cafe to print out some of those anti-censorship flyers to put in them..

[thedigitalsin]

The new layout will be launched Wednesday, along with the edits for Volume 2.

[thedigitalsin]

Site updated. New layout, and volume 2 images uploaded.

http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/index2.html

[MrDisco]

wow. after seeing the edits made i'm still shocked.

[Texhnolyze]

Man, this is a complete &amp; utter butchering.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
Site updated. New layout, and volume 2 images uploaded.

http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/index2.html

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice layout. Good work on the edits too. Thanks again for all your effort /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Since Kiril wants to keep the noise on this thread down, one bit of additional info:

[ QUOTE ]
Fight: DC CMX said:
2. Page 11, Panel 4: Dialogue change: "Small Dick Beam" changed to "Death Ray Laser Beam"

[/ QUOTE ]

More literally, I think the original Japanese means "Short, small, phimosis beam". Phimosis is a condition of the penis - I won't go into the details. People can look up a dictionary /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ferrarimanf355]

[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
Site updated. New layout, and volume 2 images uploaded.

http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/index2.html

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, man.
Well... they got more creative with the edits. That's all I can really say now before I smack my head in dumbfounded amazement. You'd think that they would get the memo now... but it looks like they really don't care what anybody thinks. Of course I could have figured that out when DC CMX's silence became deafening.

Aw well. Nice try. Come back when you have it the way Oh! Great intended. Back to Naruto for me, I suppose...

[Cplhicks]

Just curious, but has anyone organized a large group to confront them at San Diego Comiccon, or publicly protest them or something? I think if the group was large enough they'd have to say SOMETHING. Unfortunately, I cannot go to Comiccon as I'll be working in Japan at the time, but it seems like it might be a good idea, and at the very least would draw the larger public's attention to CMX's hack job. Pointing out that an obviously adult oriented title is being marketed at kids might not hurt either. Just thinking, since the silence is so frustrating, and at this point I just want to see CMX fail big time, at least with this title.

A

[Dagger]

Honestly... this release is such a trainwreck. It's just dumbfounding. /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif

As much as the edits have been discussed and hashed over, seeing visual proof of what has been changed still has more impact on me than anything else.

[ferrarimanf355]

Cplhicks- I live in Florida, so alas, I can't make the trip. I'm certain someone 's thinking something out, though...

[Chiyosuke]

[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
Man, this is a complete &amp; utter butchering.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, but we already knew that /images/graemlins/tongue.gif.

[AmericanBeauty]

Wow. I was never interested in this title from the start but that's just sad. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[jlazar]

I was reading Land of the Blindfolded yesterday (the only CMX title I've gotten), and noticed that their credits list about 10-12 Vice Presidents of one thing or another.

I found it odd that they'd have so many VPs instead of creative people listed.

And then I thought... maybe this is CMX's problem: Too many VPs mucking up things.

Just a thought...

[Dicrel Seijin]

Hey all.

I keep telling myself I won't come back to this thread, that I should just go get the tanks and not look back but here I am again (part of the reason is most of the Japanese bookstores I once knew no longer exist. /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif There are two left that I haven't gotten up the nerve to check yet. /images/graemlins/relief.gif

Anyway, can someone compare the dialog between Chiaki and Aya in the original and in CMX? I'm wondering if there was any significant alterations. Can you actually tell from the dialogue of the CMX version that a seduction is taking place?

God, I would like to hear the rationale for: "No we won't let you see a girl-on-girl seduction, you only get to hear it." Nothing that was shown was more explicit than anything the imagination of the two-legged hormones that we call teenaged boys could come up with.

Ah, well. Back to my search.

[akcoll99]

Just a random comment, but I was flipping through an old DC comic from about 20 years ago, and in it were several ads featuring DC's big slogan at the time- "Comics Aren't Just For Kids Anymore!" I just shook me head at that. True, DC has done lots of good at advancing 'mature' American comics, but 20 years later, DC still seems to be taking steps backwards when it comes to how they think manga should be handled and marketed. Maybe I should Photoshop one of their ads so it says "Manga Aren't Just For Kids Anymore!"... /images/graemlins/devil.gif

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Jim Lazar said:
I was reading Land of the Blindfolded yesterday (the only CMX title I've gotten), and noticed that their credits list about 10-12 Vice Presidents of one thing or another.

I found it odd that they'd have so many VPs instead of creative people listed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking of the credits as well. IIRC the credits for CMX's volume 1 of TenTen mentions a number of executives, but gives no credit for whoever did the touching up.

You'd think on a manga like this, which has required more editing than normal, the touch up artist would receive a substantial acknowledgment...

Or was the omission for his/her own protection? /images/graemlins/devil.gif

[ryanwh]

[ QUOTE ]
Jim Lazar said:
I was reading Land of the Blindfolded yesterday (the only CMX title I've gotten), and noticed that their credits list about 10-12 Vice Presidents of one thing or another.

I found it odd that they'd have so many VPs instead of creative people listed.

And then I thought... maybe this is CMX's problem: Too many VPs mucking up things.

Just a thought...

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not unusual. DC does that with all of the stuff they release. Though I am not sure of each individuals actual involvement with the books, if any.

[ryanwh]

This weekend Wizard World Philly is taking place in, well, Philly. It's at the Pennsylvania Convention Center. Here is the website for those you think that they can go: http://www.wizarduniverse.com/conventions/philadelphia.cfm

Wildstorm, which is in charge of CMX, is having a panel with Vertigo as follows(from Newsarama.com (http://198.64.130.9/)):

Saturday

5:00pm EST - Wild, Weird &amp; Wonderful: Vertigo/Wildstorm

My guess is that there will be a lot of "no comments". But maybe there is some brave soul in the Philly area that can get some answers.

It looks like it it would be fun regardless of your motives. They'll have a preview of Batman Begins (I know DC, but I've loved the Batman character for most of my life, so I'm excited) and Clare Kramer "Glory" from Buffy. /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif /images/graemlins/shy10000.gif /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif Oh, I'm sure there will be a bunch of other comic writers, artists and whatnot to also enjoy. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[wanfu2k1]

Hopefullly someone from here will attend and give us a report. but yeah i expect "no comment" will be the phrase of the day there /images/graemlins/sad.gif

[ferrarimanf355]

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
Just a random comment, but I was flipping through an old DC comic from about 20 years ago, and in it were several ads featuring DC's big slogan at the time- "Comics Aren't Just For Kids Anymore!" I just shook me head at that. True, DC has done lots of good at advancing 'mature' American comics, but 20 years later, DC still seems to be taking steps backwards when it comes to how they think manga should be handled and marketed. Maybe I should Photoshop one of their ads so it says "Manga Aren't Just For Kids Anymore!"... /images/graemlins/devil.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd love to see you do it. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[Vicserr]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fight: DC CMX said:
2. Page 11, Panel 4: Dialogue change: "Small Dick Beam" changed to "Death Ray Laser Beam"

[/ QUOTE ]

More literally, I think the original Japanese means "Short, small, phimosis beam". Phimosis is a condition of the penis - I won't go into the details. People can look up a dictionary /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

and if you are to lazy to do the searching, here's Wikipedia's entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis)

[fantasydewdrop]

[ QUOTE ]
Vicserr said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fight: DC CMX said:
2. Page 11, Panel 4: Dialogue change: "Small Dick Beam" changed to "Death Ray Laser Beam"

[/ QUOTE ]

More literally, I think the original Japanese means "Short, small, phimosis beam". Phimosis is a condition of the penis - I won't go into the details. People can look up a dictionary /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

and if you are to lazy to do the searching, here's Wikipedia's entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis)

[/ QUOTE ]
o_O Foreskin can retract? *rhetorical comment, no need for details*

Personally, I think that the less litteral version rolls off the toung better. The latter would start to sound like a magical girl attack cry. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ryanwh]

[ QUOTE ]
ferrarimanf355 said:
[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
Just a random comment, but I was flipping through an old DC comic from about 20 years ago, and in it were several ads featuring DC's big slogan at the time- "Comics Aren't Just For Kids Anymore!" I just shook me head at that. True, DC has done lots of good at advancing 'mature' American comics, but 20 years later, DC still seems to be taking steps backwards when it comes to how they think manga should be handled and marketed. Maybe I should Photoshop one of their ads so it says "Manga Aren't Just For Kids Anymore!"... /images/graemlins/devil.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I'd love to see you do it. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In fact, put it on a t-shirt, I'll buy it. I'll wear it when I go to WizardWorld Chicago in August... /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[Redcoffin]

[ QUOTE ]
Jim Lazar said:
I was reading Land of the Blindfolded yesterday (the only CMX title I've gotten), and noticed that their credits list about 10-12 Vice Presidents of one thing or another.

I found it odd that they'd have so many VPs instead of creative people listed.

And then I thought... maybe this is CMX's problem: Too many VPs mucking up things.

Just a thought...

[/ QUOTE ]


At many companies, it's quite common for people who do all kinds of "staff" work to be called Vice President of something or other. It depends on who they report to, how much they are paid and other factors. At a bank I once worked at, some of the web developers were VPs, and it caused much discussion and amusement. I told my manager I wanted my title to be "Master of Malleable Hammers" but she failed to see the humor in it...

I wouldn't read too much into that just by itself.

[Jake_Forbes]

Here's (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=e46616d5c502c5b7e9a1af4c243484e2&amp; threadid=35232) the panel report from Newsarama. No mention of CMX anywhere. Yorick finly goes after his ladyfriend, that's exciting!

[Kevinroc]

[ QUOTE ]
Jake_Forbes said:
Here's (http://www.newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=e46616d5c502c5b7e9a1af4c243484e2&amp; threadid=35232) the panel report from Newsarama. No mention of CMX anywhere. Yorick finly goes after his ladyfriend, that's exciting!

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love to comment on the news that Fallen Angel is confirmed as being moved to another publisher and the exciting developments in Y The Last Man &amp; Ex Machina.

Maybe the people in attendence didn't know CMX is supposed to be published through Wildstorm? Maybe they would only ask at a panel totally devoted to CMX?

[JeffDM]

[ QUOTE ]
Hiyo_2366 said:
At many companies, it's quite common for people who do all kinds of "staff" work to be called Vice President of something or other. It depends on who they report to, how much they are paid and other factors. At a bank I once worked at, some of the web developers were VPs, and it caused much discussion and amusement.
...

I wouldn't read too much into that just by itself.

[/ QUOTE ]

In short, you think it might be simple rank inflation at a small company?

[JeffDM]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fight: DC CMX said:
2. Page 11, Panel 4: Dialogue change: "Small Dick Beam" changed to "Death Ray Laser Beam"

[/ QUOTE ]

More literally, I think the original Japanese means "Short, small, phimosis beam". Phimosis is a condition of the penis - I won't go into the details. People can look up a dictionary /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

For one, it doesn't look like short and small describe the phimosis, it looks like short, small and phimosis are all describing the curse being placed on the unit, so that can be an easily explainable in that sense.

Is phimosis really common enough or well-known in Japan to make a good joke? I would take the less literal version, mainly because if it has to be explained, it isn't funny. An explaination could be a note in the back.

[darkhunter]

For DC to grab a mature title and market it towards kids by covering some of the obvious mature situation is like the tobacco companies trying to market cigs to kids by covering it with some cool ads.

[akoftroy]

[ QUOTE ]
JeffDM said:
Is phimosis really common enough or well-known in Japan to make a good joke?

[/ QUOTE ]

For some reason, yes. I've only heard of this word in manga where it comes up quite a lot. There's ads at the back of seinen manga for clinics to "fix" the problem. And ads at the back of josei manga for creams to make your nipples pinker!

[Skywise]

Friend of mine just got Vol.1 of the DVD with box, and seems it comes with the flyer promoting the manga. They had a sticker that said "bonus mini-comic included (while stocks last)". So looks like the sticker really is part of a cross promotion deal that CMX and Geneon have entered into.

[Inkthinker]

[ QUOTE ]
JeffDM said:
Is phimosis really common enough or well-known in Japan to make a good joke? I would take the less literal version, mainly because if it has to be explained, it isn't funny. An explaination could be a note in the back.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe it's more common in countries where circumcision is less common.

[hobie]

So just to add to the irony, Monster Collection #2 is shrinkwrapped and has a warning sticker. I don't know what they've done with the inside though. There is also a CMX samper book that came with Diamond shipments this week.

[Argent]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
So just to add to the irony, Monster Collection #2 is shrinkwrapped and has a warning sticker. I don't know what they've done with the inside though. There is also a CMX samper book that came with Diamond shipments this week.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought it was funny too. I can't really say how good the translation is but so far as I can tell there are really only two edits. The omake was left out(typical CMX) and the back cover image was altered so that Nastasha didn't like she was coming out of a CCG card.

[Ruroni]

Shrinkwrap and labels? and TenTen cant get any of that love. Guess they dont wanna spend the money to re-edit and reprint. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Inkthinker]

[ QUOTE ]
Argent said:The omake was left out(typical CMX) and the back cover image was altered so that Nastasha didn't like she was coming out of a CCG card.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is another reason I don't care for CMX manga. What's up with them cutting out the omake and extra sketches that are included with the original books? People LIKE extras, that's why so many graphic novels carry them!! Another reason that CMX appears to just release a shoddy, poorly concieved product.

[KK1]

[ QUOTE ]
Vicserr said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fight: DC CMX said:
2. Page 11, Panel 4: Dialogue change: "Small Dick Beam" changed to "Death Ray Laser Beam"

[/ QUOTE ]

More literally, I think the original Japanese means "Short, small, phimosis beam". Phimosis is a condition of the penis - I won't go into the details. People can look up a dictionary /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

and if you are to lazy to do the searching, here's Wikipedia's entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis)

[/ QUOTE ]

Ohhh so that's Masataka's problem, you know this finally makes a later scene make sense. In vol 8 Aya stays over Masataka's home and he wakes up next to her and without realizing it grabs her breast (he didn't know she was next to him), shocked he gets up real fast and she reaches to grab him and accidentally grabs his dick and there's a look of intense pain on his face and later while walking she apologizes and asks him it it really hurt that much and I could never figure out why it would hurt, if anything I would have thought Masataka enjoyed it. /images/graemlins/noseblee.gif But if he has that condition it all makes sense. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Raccoonboy]

Hello everyone. The Top 100 Graphic Novels Actual--May 2005 (http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/7061.html) is up again on ICv2 News. It's sad that Tenjoh Tenge Vol 2 made the top 100 again.... at #73. I hope Vol 3 will disappear from the chart completely.

[thedigitalsin]

That's a bit deceptive, because it just lists how many volumes were purchased by specialty stores. Most of them, I would gather, do not know about the edits, and are just buying it to have the thing in stock. That list isn't indicative of actual consumers buying the censored TenTen.

On that note, it is nice to see the thing drop some 30 places compared to Volume 1 and also nice to see Berserk in the top ten yet again, proving there's a huge, viable, still untapped and often overlooked market out there with the 18+ crowd.

[ferrarimanf355]

[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
That's a bit deceptive, because it just lists how many volumes were purchased by specialty stores. Most of them, I would gather, do not know about the edits, and are just buying it to have the thing in stock. That list isn't indicative of actual consumers buying the censored TenTen.

On that note, it is nice to see the thing drop some 30 places compared to Volume 1 and also nice to see Berserk in the top ten yet again, proving there's a huge, viable, still untapped and often overlooked market out there with the 18+ crowd.

[/ QUOTE ]
So, if Vol. 2 drops some 30 spots compared to Vol. 1, I do think that Vol. 3 has no chance of showing up in the top 100. You guys might be doing something right here...

[Ruroni]

Meh.. Doubt we get a proper reprint. Im further encouraged to buy the tanks.

[Chiyosuke]

[ QUOTE ]
Ruroni said:
Meh.. Doubt we get a proper reprint. Im further encouraged to buy the tanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

I feel the same and that's exactly what I did. Should be waiting for me after work tommorrow /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif...


... I can't read Japanese /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[KevinTRod]

[ QUOTE ]
Ruroni said:
Meh.. Doubt we get a proper reprint. Im further encouraged to buy the tanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah you never know. Once the manga isn't very profitable, then maybe, just maybe, we'll get the uncut release we've been demanding.

[Inkthinker]

I can direct you towards english scripts if you send me a PM.

I'm attending the Tampa Anime MetroCon this weekend as a guest animator. Aside from a panel on censorship that I'll be hosting on Sunday, I'd like to spread some flyers. The Fight website has a blank in that area, though... do we still have a link of some sort to the 8.5x11? I'll pin it up on the bulletin board and put a stack of 'em in the Artist's Alley and the freebie table.

[thedigitalsin]

http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/tenimages/eightbyten.pdf
http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/tenimages/fourbyfive.pdf

Also, I'm 95% confirmed for San Diego Comic Con (press badge and all). I will definitely confront the DC guys. More details next time I update the site (most likely six months after SDCC).

[Ruroni]

6 months? lol

[MalrocK]

[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/tenimages/eightbyten.pdf
http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/tenimages/fourbyfive.pdf

Also, I'm 95% confirmed for San Diego Comic Con (press badge and all). I will definitely confront the DC guys. More details next time I update the site (most likely six months after SDCC).

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice! /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[thedigitalsin]

As I noted in the recent update (which was minutes ago as of this post), I will be attending the San Diego Comic Con. After I pick up that hardcover copy of the Street Fighter: Eternal Challenge artbook, a few figures, mingle with the fans and oogle the fine ladies, I will take my shiny presss badge and head over to the DC booth, where I will absolutely grill them on the TenTen matter (and perhaps praise them on All-Star Batman and Robin).

If any of you, or someone you know, plans on attending this convention and wants to meet up with me when I head over there, you're more than welcome to. I encourage it - I want TenTen fans and/or those against censorship to hear what DC has to say to us regarding the issue. If I were a betting man though, I wouldn't expect to hear anything out of them. But I'm sure the experience will be...interesting, to say the least.

Please though, don't bring water bottles or batteries or anything else of that nature (unless you're cosplaying as the Waterboy or Black Vulcan or something) - simply bring your presence and your inquiring minds. I do not wish to be confrontational (at least in a violent way - a forked tongue will be more than enough), and I definitely do not want to get kicked out of SDCC my first year.

When I figure out a meeting place and an appropriate time that'll work for you folks, I will post it both here and on the site.

[Kiril]

[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
When I figure out a meeting place and an appropriate time that'll work for you folks, I will post it both here and on the site.

[/ QUOTE ]

While a brief mention in this thread is fine, if people need to followup on this and discuss SDCC, they should go to the Conventions and Site Gatherings forum. There's already a San Diego Comic Com thread (http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1024672&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=1) there.

[Village Idiot]

Well I just got back from the local comic book store, and me and the owner were talking about CMX and Tenjou Tenge in general. According to his sources, one of the big reasons why CMX is refusing to both comment and issue a non-edited re-print of TT is because they had already edited and printed multiple volumes of the series in advance, well before the first volume was officially released.

Also, he told me that CMX isn't doing very well at all, and is apparently losing money.

He also wondered why CMX didn't learn from Del Rey and just shrink wrapped the stupid thing in the first place /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Dicrel Seijin]

Yes, okay Village Idiot, but what are the store owner's sources?

We really don't want to start speculating again without some solid evidence. Does he actually know someone in DC?

I'll say it again, you'd think that there'd be a leak at this point, but no. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[kawaii_chibiko]

[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
As I noted in the recent update (which was minutes ago as of this post), I will be attending the San Diego Comic Con. After I pick up that hardcover copy of the Street Fighter: Eternal Challenge artbook, a few figures, mingle with the fans and oogle the fine ladies, I will take my shiny presss badge and head over to the DC booth, where I will absolutely grill them on the TenTen matter (and perhaps praise them on All-Star Batman and Robin).

If any of you, or someone you know, plans on attending this convention and wants to meet up with me when I head over there, you're more than welcome to. I encourage it - I want TenTen fans and/or those against censorship to hear what DC has to say to us regarding the issue. If I were a betting man though, I wouldn't expect to hear anything out of them. But I'm sure the experience will be...interesting, to say the least.

Please though, don't bring water bottles or batteries or anything else of that nature (unless you're cosplaying as the Waterboy or Black Vulcan or something) - simply bring your presence and your inquiring minds. I do not wish to be confrontational (at least in a violent way - a forked tongue will be more than enough), and I definitely do not want to get kicked out of SDCC my first year.

When I figure out a meeting place and an appropriate time that'll work for you folks, I will post it both here and on the site.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would like to thank you for your efforts on the front. Your site, and it's edit's list/gallery, have been a great help with the education of the local (israeli) anime/manga fan base. The two main stores carrying manga (well, we only have two for the whole country XD) were convinced enough, by my local efforts using your site as referance, to not order any more copies of vol.1-2 and any future edited releases.

I'll be waiting for a full report on Con "event".

[akcoll99]

[ QUOTE ]
Kousaka Makoto said:
Yes, okay Village Idiot, but what are the store owner's sources?

We really don't want to start speculating again without some solid evidence. Does he actually know someone in DC?

I'll say it again, you'd think that there'd be a leak at this point, but no. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not to throw anymore fuel onto the speculation fire, but in speaking recently with the owner of my comic store, who is good friends with several former and current DC employees and who is more familiar than I with the inner workings with DC, he believes the decision to edit Ten Ten might have come from someone in the corporate offices above Paul Levitz. That would mean somebody in the Time/Warner marketing area. This is given some credence by recent statements from Time Warner about taking a more active role in DC properties (i.e. sticking their hands in places they don't belong...). No evidence to back any of this up, but it may be a reason as to why DC can't/won't say anything about the issue...

[Chiyosuke]

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Kousaka Makoto said:
Yes, okay Village Idiot, but what are the store owner's sources?

We really don't want to start speculating again without some solid evidence. Does he actually know someone in DC?

I'll say it again, you'd think that there'd be a leak at this point, but no. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not to throw anymore fuel onto the speculation fire, but in speaking recently with the owner of my comic store, who is good friends with several former and current DC employees and who is more familiar than I with the inner workings with DC, he believes the decision to edit Ten Ten might have come from someone in the corporate offices above Paul Levitz. That would mean somebody in the Time/Warner marketing area. This is given some credence by recent statements from Time Warner about taking a more active role in DC properties (i.e. sticking their hands in places they don't belong...). No evidence to back any of this up, but it may be a reason as to why DC can't/won't say anything about the issue...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it was speculative, but that's exactly what I was thinking /images/graemlins/depresse.gif.

[Kevinroc]

[ QUOTE ]
Chiyosuke said:
[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Kousaka Makoto said:
Yes, okay Village Idiot, but what are the store owner's sources?

We really don't want to start speculating again without some solid evidence. Does he actually know someone in DC?

I'll say it again, you'd think that there'd be a leak at this point, but no. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not to throw anymore fuel onto the speculation fire, but in speaking recently with the owner of my comic store, who is good friends with several former and current DC employees and who is more familiar than I with the inner workings with DC, he believes the decision to edit Ten Ten might have come from someone in the corporate offices above Paul Levitz. That would mean somebody in the Time/Warner marketing area. This is given some credence by recent statements from Time Warner about taking a more active role in DC properties (i.e. sticking their hands in places they don't belong...). No evidence to back any of this up, but it may be a reason as to why DC can't/won't say anything about the issue...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it was speculative, but that's exactly what I was thinking /images/graemlins/depresse.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how it relates to Ten Ten but it does relate to DC's super hero line with Time Warner trying to build film franchises to compete with all the major bucks that the movies based off of Marvel's heroes have earned (Spider-Man especially).

But even then, that's a little strange as titles like the Vertigo line and Wildstorm lines do not seem to be getting censored. DC publishes a series called Lucifer for crying out loud (yes, it is about the christian Devil).

Of course, the distinct possibility exists that executives learned about the sales figures on titles like Kenshin and Fruits Basket and assumed the manga market is for a younger audience and decided to edit Ten Ten in an attempt to appeal to younger fans.

I don't think they knew or cared about the intended audience of a title.

That's the only logical explanation I can come up with for this particular theory.

[akcoll99]

[ QUOTE ]
Kevinroc said:
[ QUOTE ]
Chiyosuke said:
[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Kousaka Makoto said:
Yes, okay Village Idiot, but what are the store owner's sources?

We really don't want to start speculating again without some solid evidence. Does he actually know someone in DC?

I'll say it again, you'd think that there'd be a leak at this point, but no. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, not to throw anymore fuel onto the speculation fire, but in speaking recently with the owner of my comic store, who is good friends with several former and current DC employees and who is more familiar than I with the inner workings with DC, he believes the decision to edit Ten Ten might have come from someone in the corporate offices above Paul Levitz. That would mean somebody in the Time/Warner marketing area. This is given some credence by recent statements from Time Warner about taking a more active role in DC properties (i.e. sticking their hands in places they don't belong...). No evidence to back any of this up, but it may be a reason as to why DC can't/won't say anything about the issue...

[/ QUOTE ]

I know it was speculative, but that's exactly what I was thinking /images/graemlins/depresse.gif.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure how it relates to Ten Ten but it does relate to DC's super hero line with Time Warner trying to build film franchises to compete with all the major bucks that the movies based off of Marvel's heroes have earned (Spider-Man especially).

But even then, that's a little strange as titles like the Vertigo line and Wildstorm lines do not seem to be getting censored. DC publishes a series called Lucifer for crying out loud (yes, it is about the christian Devil).

Of course, the distinct possibility exists that executives learned about the sales figures on titles like Kenshin and Fruits Basket and assumed the manga market is for a younger audience and decided to edit Ten Ten in an attempt to appeal to younger fans.

I don't think they knew or cared about the intended audience of a title.

That's the only logical explanation I can come up with for this particular theory.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with that in the sense that the word "manga" has been accompanied by the sound of cash registers ringing in the ears of some publishers and executives. The Vertigo books, prior to the Constantine movie, have always been seen of something of a niche corner of DC's publishing house. If one comes close to cracking the Top 100 sales charts, then it's doing well by Vertigo standards. But with manga, especially something with a healthy mix of sex &amp; violence like Ten Ten, I wouldn't put it past some executive to get greedy or over eager without knowing what they were getting into (or caring...)

The "Vertigo" books are the great mystery in alot of this because it causes people to wonder why the inconsistancy in DC policies. Alot of it may have to do with how the Vertigo books are overseen by Karen Berger, who has been around forever at DC and, from what I understand, has a large amount of pull around the DC offices when it comes to creative freedom in the Vertigo books. That's why Hellblazer didn't suddenly start featuring a John Constantine who looked like Keanu Reeves... /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

But again, this is ALL speculation and sadly, speculating looks to be all we can do at this point... /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[Noodle]

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Kevinroc said:

I'm not sure how it relates to Ten Ten but it does relate to DC's super hero line with Time Warner trying to build film franchises to compete with all the major bucks that the movies based off of Marvel's heroes have earned (Spider-Man especially).

But even then, that's a little strange as titles like the Vertigo line and Wildstorm lines do not seem to be getting censored. DC publishes a series called Lucifer for crying out loud (yes, it is about the christian Devil).

Of course, the distinct possibility exists that executives learned about the sales figures on titles like Kenshin and Fruits Basket and assumed the manga market is for a younger audience and decided to edit Ten Ten in an attempt to appeal to younger fans.

I don't think they knew or cared about the intended audience of a title.

That's the only logical explanation I can come up with for this particular theory.

[/ QUOTE ]


I agree with that in the sense that the word "manga" has been accompanied by the sound of cash registers ringing in the ears of some publishers and executives. The Vertigo books, prior to the Constantine movie, have always been seen of something of a niche corner of DC's publishing house. If one comes close to cracking the Top 100 sales charts, then it's doing well by Vertigo standards. But with manga, especially something with a healthy mix of sex &amp; violence like Ten Ten, I wouldn't put it past some executive to get greedy or over eager without knowing what they were getting into (or caring...)

The "Vertigo" books are the great mystery in alot of this because it causes people to wonder why the inconsistancy in DC policies. Alot of it may have to do with how the Vertigo books are overseen by Karen Berger, who has been around forever at DC and, from what I understand, has a large amount of pull around the DC offices when it comes to creative freedom in the Vertigo books. That's why Hellblazer didn't suddenly start featuring a John Constantine who looked like Keanu Reeves... /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

But again, this is ALL speculation and sadly, speculating looks to be all we can do at this point... /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Do we really need to keep reminding you guys that Vertigo is not on-topic here? I know CMX's policies inspire a wide-ranging discussion and there's comparisons to be made, however, they've been made before and we've asked that you all stop making them here in the manga forum.

Consider this a last warning - and it might be best to try to stop repeating the same things over and over, if you all can help it...

[ferrarimanf355]

It's been a while since I last posted here. Seems that there isn't much to note, aside from digitalsin going to the San Deigo Comic Con to confront and grill the DC panel over this. Needless to say, it should be very interesting to hear the results. digitalsin, what do you expect? Some hard answers, or just getting the word out?

[Kiril]

[ QUOTE ]
ferrarimanf355 said:
It's been a while since I last posted here. Seems that there isn't much to note, aside from digitalsin going to the San Deigo Comic Con to confront and grill the DC panel over this. Needless to say, it should be very interesting to hear the results. digitalsin, what do you expect? Some hard answers, or just getting the word out?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll reiterate what I said at the beginning of this thread: I'd like to ask that people keep this thread focused on important updates and less on general chatter. You should contact digitialsin if you want to have a private conversation with him, or go to the Conventions and Site Gatherings forum if you want to plan things for San Diego Comic Con with those going. If anything happens at SDCC I'm sure it will get posted here, but until then, please don't post just to say "Seems that there isn't much to note".

[Chris Thai]

If the one pulling the strings is all the way up in Time/Warner, then why are we directing our letters to the VP of Sales and Marketing of CMX. Shouldn't we be writing to the CEO of Time/Warner?

[Kiril]

[ QUOTE ]
ShrinkNerv4Eva said:
If the one pulling the strings is all the way up in Time/Warner, then why are we directing our letters to the VP of Sales and Marketing of CMX. Shouldn't we be writing to the CEO of Time/Warner?

[/ QUOTE ]

No one knows exactly where the decision came from. You've been reading speculation in this thread on where it could be -- that's not facts. CMX has remained silent on this entire matter.

[shannonleighd]

I found the artwork for volume 3 today. Here's the CMX version:

Tenjho Tenge V.03 (http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1401205623.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

And the orginal art:

Tenjho Tenge V.03 Orginal (http://images-jp.amazon.com/images/P/4088758080.09.LZZZZZZZ.jpg)

What's strange is the artwork I found for the CMX version doesn't match the original or the place holder they had up. It's possible that it's not the final version though.

[Rogueman_8]

well this one uses the inside coloured art from vol.3. Both still suck cuz their edited w/ the fanservice areas covered like before.

[Inkthinker]

So... nothing's changing. *sigh*

When's the release date for this mockery?

[thedigitalsin]

There's a website that needs updating.

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
There's a website that needs updating.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll see about CMX scans when it comes out as usual. /images/graemlins/relief.gif

[Argent]

I just picked up my copy. A quick flip-through showed several edits. Including some in the color areas!

Expect the list to be up sometime tonight at ListerX.com.

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
Argent said:
I just picked up my copy. A quick flip-through showed several edits. Including some in the color areas!

Expect the list to be up sometime tonight at ListerX.com.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I see the color edit. Nice job matching the contrast level of the rest of the picture. That super black spot doesn't stand out at all /images/graemlins/relief.gif

Ok, I'll borrow the CMX book and will flip through/check ListerX/Scan stuff later tonight after I get home.

[Argent]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
[ QUOTE ]
Argent said:
I just picked up my copy. A quick flip-through showed several edits. Including some in the color areas!

Expect the list to be up sometime tonight at ListerX.com.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I see the color edit. Nice job matching the contrast level of the rest of the picture. That super black spot doesn't stand out at all /images/graemlins/relief.gif

Ok, I'll borrow the CMX book and will flip through/check ListerX/Scan stuff later tonight after I get home.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got the list up:

http://www.listerx.com/article.asp?ID=61

I count 31 visual edits. As before if I missed anything please let me know.

[Inkthinker]

31... sheesh. So, does that bring the grand total to over 100?

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Argent said:
I've got the list up:

http://www.listerx.com/article.asp?ID=61

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for your efforts.

[ QUOTE ]
I count 31 visual edits. As before if I missed anything please let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll try to compare the two versions myself when I get the chance. Unfortunately, volume 2 has yet to hit the shores where I live, let alone any talk of volume 3...

[ QUOTE ]
Inkthinker said:
31... sheesh. So, does that bring the grand total to over 100?

[/ QUOTE ]

Look on the bright side. At this time, it looks like the number of edits has been falling with each volume. By my calculation the manga release will be free of edits by volume 16 (if the series gets that far) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
Argent said:
I've got the list up:

http://www.listerx.com/article.asp?ID=61

I count 31 visual edits. As before if I missed anything please let me know.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, just scanned and sent stuff to DigitalSin. A few things to note.

I couldn't scan the 'poster' properly because the awesome binding job in the copy I borrowed ended up gluing both edges of the poster into the middle of the book.

You can't tell in my scan, but the edit to Maya's dress on page 5 stands out on the color page. The black of the edited part is darker than the slightly washed out blacks on the rest of the page.

On page 12 where Maya is talking to Isuzu, the dialog was changed and refers to Isuzu as being 'partially nude' to reflect the art change.

On page 94-95 the added top is more of a bikini as opposed to the handkercheif, and it has a black skull pattern instead of the white one it should be. Even if it wasn't the same pattern, it could have been the same color.

On page 192, a bra has been added. On page 193 they neglected to add a line for the shoulder strap and there is no line across her back for the back view on 194.

[Argent]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
On page 12 where Maya is talking to Isuzu, the dialog was changed and refers to Isuzu as being 'partially nude' to reflect the art change.

[/ QUOTE ]

I noticed that too, but didn't really think it was worth listing.

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
On page 94-95 the added top is more of a bikini as opposed to the handkercheif, and it has a black skull pattern instead of the white one it should be. Even if it wasn't the same pattern, it could have been the same color.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure they didn't care about matching it to the story. Just so long as they cover the "naughty bits".

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
On page 192, a bra has been added. On page 193 they neglected to add a line for the shoulder strap and there is no line across her back for the back view on 194.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since they weren't edits I didn't think I should list them. There were a few more of these non-edits that I was surprised to see left in:

Page 10/ Panel 3 - Maya's panties (They're so against them why leave these?)
Page 12/Panel 5 - Maya's panties
Page 16/ Panel 1 - No attempt to put a bra on Maya (It is just her back but it just seems like one they would do)
Page 200 - More evil butt cleavage and panties (I'm surprised they didn't scrap the afterward alltogether)

[hobie]

Fair enough. I just wanted to at least comment on them here as it just helps prove how inconsistent they are being with the edits. Even if I had no clue that the title was being edited, I might notice the things that aren't right from frame to frame. Its kind of like looking for movie mistakes. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[Argent]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
Fair enough. I just wanted to at least comment on them here as it just helps prove how inconsistent they are being with the edits. Even if I had no clue that the title was being edited, I might notice the things that aren't right from frame to frame. Its kind of like looking for movie mistakes. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yep, yep. I agree completely.

[akcoll99]

Thanks for taking the time to put the list up. Not that anything is coming as surprise at this point, but it still infuriates me everytime I see what DC did to the book. Just a stupid, stupid decision on their part. If any of you ever check out American comic book forums, they could normally care less about manga, but even THEY make fun of DC for this one... /images/graemlins/anger100.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Noodle said:
[ QUOTE ]
Aka-san said:
Say, I just got my order last week of vol. 2 and I wanted to check something.

Is everybody seen or getting copies of vol. 2 with a giant sticker slapped on the cover promoting the DVD by Geneon.

I'm just wondering if I was shipped promo copies or something.

If it's intentional then... wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sticker is on all of the copies of the books I've seen at retail stores, so I'm guessing CMX slapped 'em on there in some sort of desperate marketing push.

[/ QUOTE ]
So i guess their books are not selling well. I hope so!
I would have purchased this series, but it was an auto pass once I knew it was edited. I am glad del ray changed their decision with Negima because I am enjoying a lot.

[akcoll99]

[ QUOTE ]
Golthin said:
[ QUOTE ]
Noodle said:
[ QUOTE ]
Aka-san said:
Say, I just got my order last week of vol. 2 and I wanted to check something.

Is everybody seen or getting copies of vol. 2 with a giant sticker slapped on the cover promoting the DVD by Geneon.

I'm just wondering if I was shipped promo copies or something.

If it's intentional then... wow.

[/ QUOTE ]

The sticker is on all of the copies of the books I've seen at retail stores, so I'm guessing CMX slapped 'em on there in some sort of desperate marketing push.

[/ QUOTE ]
So i guess their books are not selling well. I hope so!
I would have purchased this series, but it was an auto pass once I knew it was edited. I am glad del ray changed their decision with Negima because I am enjoying a lot.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to say just how well or how bad Ten Ten is doing, but we know it's not the runaway best seller they were probably hoping for. At one of the summer con's, I heard it mentioned that CMX's best selling series were Land Of The Blindfolded and one other one (forget the name off the top of my head...). From my experience, I've noticed that most of the bookstore's and comic book store's I've been too don't even carry the title and if they do it's only one or maybe two copies, as opposed to the multiple copies of each volume for series like Kenshin, Fruba, Negima, etc. I'm voting for "Dud" status on Ten Ten as well, but we'll probably never know for sure... /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[bakedleech]

Land of the Blindfolded is CMX's best selling title in bookstores as opposed to direct market/comic stores. As for the sticker, it's large and annoying but it comes off quite easily (so easily I peeled them all off mine before shelving them), which is more than I can say for some Tokyopop books where the tie-ins are printed right on the cover. Ex: Kampai!, newer DNAngel volumes. /images/graemlins/sad.gif

[Natsume_Maya]

My local store finally stocked volume 2! Wow, that's a big sticker about the DVD release.

From a quick comparison of the artwork, I found another 7 artwork edits in volume 2. I don't know whether to be pleased with my efforts /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif or upset /images/graemlins/sad.gif

When I get the time (perhaps the weekend), I'll scan the panels and email thedigitalsin.

A few instances of bad placement of sound effects too - not to censor, but just bad placement of sound effects which obsure artwork like people's faces.

Haven't had time to go through the translation for any changes. From a quick glance though, I don't like a couple of the martial arts move translations. Also I noticed a few typos, eg reference to Maya instead of Aya... /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[Natsume_Maya]

Okay, I've scanned in the relevant pages and have contacted thedigitalsin. Hopefully he can put up comparison images in due course.

The additional image edits I found:
Page 25, panel 4 lines of Chiaki's butt deleted.
Page 25, panel 5 splash of water added to cover Aya's naked body.
Page 97, panel 2 dress redrawn to cover Maya's nipple.
Page 154, panel 4 pubic area of Emi's panties deleted (I'm no good at scanning, so it might be hard to see the edit clearly).
Page 166, panel 2 pubic area of Emi's panties deleted and line for panties added.
Page 177, panel 3 dress redrawn to cover Maya's panties.
Page 178, panel 1 dress redrawn to cover Maya's panties.

As with volume 1, I think the translation is fine on the whole. Perhaps not as literal as I'd prefer, but that's just a subjective issue. Dialogue was sometimes made a bit more obvious (ie slightly dumbed down) but on one occasion, I felt the dialogue was made less obvious. The only things I'd really point out:

- Nitpick: inconsistent conversion from metric measurements to Imperial measurements. Eg at page 18, the original Japanese reference to kilometres was changed to miles, but at page 86, the CMX version retains the reference to centimetres instead of inches. Also inconsistent translation of the word "ryu" as in a style of martial arts. On occasion the word is translated as "style" or "school", on others it is left untranslated as "ryu".

- One possible instance of toning down dialogue: at page 24, the scene where Chiaki makes her move on Aya.
The original Japanese lines (based on Fugu's translation):
Chiaki: Can you tell...?
Chiaki: It's beating really fast... my chest...
In the Japanese edition, you can see that Chiaki's pressing her body firmly again Aya's. CMX's version has the art toned down.
CMX dialogue for that scene:
Chiaki: See?
Chiaki: I make your heart go pitter-pat... don't I?

- One translation I didn't like so much was at page 35, where Maya says to Aya (CMX translation) "...if he weren't your 'bridegroom-to-be,' I would've fallen for him myself."
Personally I think "would've" is too strong/certain a term in that case. IMHO "may have" or "might have" was more appropriate. To me, this is a bit more than a nitpick, because it's dealing with the relationship between Maya and Nagi (even if Maya then says she was joking).

- I was a bit disappointed that Isuzu's nickname "French bread head" at page 90 in the Japanese edition was changed to "Rapunzel" at page 94 of the CMX edition /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

- On one or two occasions, I didn't like the translation of Aya's speech. The impression I get of her is someone who's pretty polite/straightforward with her speech. Yet the CMX translation has her being a bit too brash once or twice. Eg, at page 101:
Japanese edition: ...if you come near me, you're going to get hurt!!
CMX edition: ...but if you come near me, you're gonna need an ambulance!!
I don't mind that kind of change for other characters, but it seems out of character for Aya.

- IIRC in volume 1, it was suggested CMX had toned down dialogue by replacing "kill" with "smash". The translation in this volume seems more varied. ie on occasion, "kill" or "die" is translated literally, on other occasions a synonym is used. While you could argue this is inconsistent censorship, I like to give the benefit of the doubt. To me, this is just a case of CMX trying to put a bit of variation into the dialogue.

- At page 107, the CMX edition oddly has Masataka referring to Maya as "Maya-sensei". In the Japanese edition, he used "buchou" (club leader). I don't recall him ever referring to her as "sensei". Even though she may be buchou, and head of Natsume Goushin Ryu, I don't think she's of the level to be considered "sensei". ie I can't see Masataka calling her "Maya-sensei".

- Odd that at page 126 and surrounding pages, the CMX refers to the "Magabarai" clan. I wonder this wasn't translated into something like "exorcist family/clan".

- Questionable martial arts move translations:

1. At page 17, the CMX edition refers to a Chinese martial art "Passing behind fist". I think this a reference to the style (Bai Yuan) Tong Bei Quan, a style which uses (relatively) long-range strikes (arched back, use of the arms). The kanji used mean "to pass through", "(a person's) back", and "fist". Personally I'd think it'd be fine to leave the martial art in the Chinese name, or translate it as something like "passing from the back fist", ie the energy is presumably being channelled from the person's back and through the arms to deliver the strike.

2. At page 133, the CMX edition translates Tagami's attack as "Divine Dream Tagami-Style Zhongyang, Number One: 'Ripper' ". I'd translate it as "Divine Dream Tagami Ryu Inner Tradition Yang within Yin, Number One: 'Ripper' ". "Inner Tradition" presumably suggests it's a secret move of the school. (I think it's "Yang within Yin" but I could be wrong - it could be "Yin within Yang" /images/graemlins/tongue.gif ).

3. At page 156, the CMX edition translates Maya's attack as "Natsume Ryu Advanced Exercise 8th Degree, Tai-shan Destructive Strike". I'd translate it as "Natsume Ryu Indestructible Eight Forms, Mount Tai Demolishing Roar". Mount Tai (Tai-shan) is a mountain in China. The original Japanese is Natsume Ryu Kongou Hasshiki Taizan Hou Gou. "Kongou Hasshiki" (Indestructible Eight Forms) is a reference to the eight basic techniques of the Chinese martial art "Ba Ji Quan" (Fist of Eight Extremes), known in Japan as "Hakkyoku-ken". In Japan, those eight basic techniques are the Kongou Hasshiki.

4. Similarly, at pages 174-5, the CMX edition translates Maya's attack as "Natsume School Advanced Exercise 8th Degree, Linking Heavenly Iron Attack". I'd translate it as "Natsume Ryu Indestructible Eight Forms, Continuous Superlative Iron Flower Attack". Again, the Kongou Hasshiki. "Continuous" (or "linking" as CMX puts it) because this attack is presumably a succession of strikes (or in video game lingo - a combo /images/graemlins/tongue.gif ).

[honorableone11]

Alert: To all fans of the series Tenjho Tenge. there is currently a petition on iPetition.com to save Tenjho Tenge. Please go to this url: Release Tenjho Tenge Uncut! (http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/Tenjoh_Tenge/)
and help me save this great work.

[Argent]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
Page 97, panel 2 dress redrawn to cover Maya's nipple.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe I didn't see this one.(It's panel 1 though not 2)

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
Page 178, panel 1 dress redrawn to cover Maya's panties.


[/ QUOTE ]

It looks more like it was redrawn to cover her butt and they also removed the pubic area of the panties that was showing.

So many more edits, and such tiny ones at that. Makes me sick all over again.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Argent said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
Page 97, panel 2 dress redrawn to cover Maya's nipple.


[/ QUOTE ]

I can't believe I didn't see this one.(It's panel 1 though not 2)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the correction.

I found one more edit:
Page 22, panel 1 towel added to cover Chiaki's butt.

That makes 44 in total for volume 2.

[ QUOTE ]
So many more edits, and such tiny ones at that. Makes me sick all over again.

[/ QUOTE ]

As has been mentioned regarding volume 3, the inconsistency is weird too. They cover up the smallest images, yet in the fight between Maya and Emi in volume 2, a number of scenes with larger, obvious panty shots were left untouched.

[BonifaceVIII]

[ QUOTE ]
The Honorable One said:
Alert: To all fans of the series Tenjho Tenge. there is currently a petition on iPetition.com to save Tenjho Tenge. Please go to this url: Release Tenjho Tenge Uncut! (http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/Tenjoh_Tenge/)
and help me save this great work.

[/ QUOTE ]
Online petitions are a waste of webspace.

Go here, and actually do something constructive. (http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/index2.html)

[Chris Thai]

[ QUOTE ]
BonifaceVIII said:
[ QUOTE ]
The Honorable One said:
Alert: To all fans of the series Tenjho Tenge. there is currently a petition on iPetition.com to save Tenjho Tenge. Please go to this url: Release Tenjho Tenge Uncut! (http://www.ipetitions.com/campaigns/Tenjoh_Tenge/)
and help me save this great work.

[/ QUOTE ]
Online petitions are a waste of webspace.

Go here, and actually do something constructive. (http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/index2.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, especially since CMX doesn't seem to care.

[MrDisco]

i have to agree. i agree with the sentiment, but online petitions are worthless. the only thing that will grab their attention is lack of sales.

[Chris Thai]

Agreed again, although this thought came to mind: should the fan-translated version be distributed? It is a bit unethical, but it's the best way to cut sales.

[michaelwb]

[ QUOTE ]
ShrinkNerv4Eva said:
Agreed again, although this thought came to mind: should the fan-translated version be distributed? It is a bit unethical, but it's the best way to cut sales.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a reminder- script clubs are fine for mention here, but nothing beyond that (i.e., no scanlations.)

[populuxe]

So is this it? Has the fight been fought, and we lost? It appears that the highly censored Tenjho Tenge is selling well and CMX has no intention of changing their ways.

Personally, all this recent censorship seems to have killed my love of manga. I'm reading almost nothing these days. It's just no fun anymore. It seems I can't pick up a single new volume of manga and be assured it won't be censored. What a depressing time it is to be a manga fan.

[witega]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
So is this it? Has the fight been fought, and we lost? It appears that the highly censored Tenjho Tenge is selling well and CMX has no intention of changing their ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

While it seems clear (and has for some time) that manga fans have 'lost' so far as getting an acceptable release of Tenten, I'm not clear why Jim Lee's comments have resulted in an uncritical acceptance that Tenten is selling 'well'--since that can't be backed up from any of the sales charts. Tenten is (unfortunately from my pov) not a complete flop but it is nowhere near the top of the charts.

Remember, Lee was answering first and foremost as a corporate spokesman. And unless DC was/is ready to admit the Tenten policy was a failure, then given the criticism and publicity they have received over it, then of course they are going to claim it is doing well.

As for the going bimonthly because of 'popular demand', I have great doubts about that being the whole story. We have seen only a few instances of companies speeding up production. Viz did it with Kenshin--consistently one of the top 3 sellers in the market. They haven't done it with a single other series despite having a number of top-sellers which implies two things--in the current saturated market, retailers aren't pushing publishers to churn out even top 10 series faster and Viz isn't seeing enough benefit from the Kenshin speed up to make them expand the strategy.

Tokyopop meanwhile sped up several of their top sellers over the summer. All their reports have been that, again, the strategy really didn't do much for them. And like Kenshin, all the series they tried it with sell *significantly* better than Tenten.

So why is DC speeding up Tenten? I don't know, there could be a lot of reasons--for example, it is *not* doing well (or at least as well as expected) and they just want to get it out and off their production schedule--but to do so in a way that won't offend the Japanese licensor who has lots of other titles that any manga company would want a shot at. I'm not arguing that's the reasoning, just pointing out that alternatives are just as possible as Lee's PR propaganda.

[Lovely]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:

Personally, all this recent censorship seems to have killed my love of manga. I'm reading almost nothing these days. It's just no fun anymore. It seems I can't pick up a single new volume of manga and be assured it won't be censored. What a depressing time it is to be a manga fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, the same thing has happened to me. I used to buy so many series that it was a little crazy. And I was always happy to try out new titles. But with all the craziness concerning editing and the like, I've become overly cautious when buying manga. I still collect a select few titles, but my willingness to try "something new" has really waned.
That... and I've been buying a lot of video games lately /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif . So, my collecting urges sort of even out /images/graemlins/happy.gif .

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
What a depressing time it is to be a manga fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange, I would've thought not long ago people would've said it was a great time to be a manga fan, with a lot of volumes being released each month.

I think it's a bit ironic that hardcore fans try to encourage the growth of anime/manga, and then when that industry does grow, it can then ignore the hardcore.

[ QUOTE ]
witega said:
Tenten is (unfortunately from my pov) not a complete flop but it is nowhere near the top of the charts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought that, while TenTen might not be near the top of the charts relative to other publisher's works, it was near the top relative to CMX's other works.

[ QUOTE ]
So why is DC speeding up Tenten? I don't know, there could be a lot of reasons--for example, it is *not* doing well (or at least as well as expected) and they just want to get it out and off their production schedule

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a more plausible reason, given that TenTen may be one of the more popular of CMX's releases, is that the title has been a public relations disaster for the company. The longer it takes to release the series, the longer they will have censorship of this series around their neck. The sooner they can finish the series, the sooner they can get this issue behind them - that may be what they're thinking.

[MrDisco]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
So is this it? Has the fight been fought, and we lost? It appears that the highly censored Tenjho Tenge is selling well and CMX has no intention of changing their ways.

Personally, all this recent censorship seems to have killed my love of manga. I'm reading almost nothing these days. It's just no fun anymore. It seems I can't pick up a single new volume of manga and be assured it won't be censored. What a depressing time it is to be a manga fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think we just have to accept that TenTen will not see the light of day in N.A. (the title currently posing as TenTen is an imposter). Jim's response to the question wasn't even worth reporting. /images/graemlins/sad.gif

anime and manga companies who participate in these bonehead moves has killed my enjoyment for the hobby. i buy far less now compared to a year ago.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
So is this it? Has the fight been fought, and we lost? It appears that the highly censored Tenjho Tenge is selling well and CMX has no intention of changing their ways.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessarily a loss. Perhaps CMX will never decide to released an uncensored Tenjou Tenge, but I would be surprised if they tried this again with another manga.

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, all this recent censorship seems to have killed my love of manga. I'm reading almost nothing these days.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you know another language, you can always go for the Korean, Chinese, French, German, Spanish, Italian etc editions. Hopefully they're not edited.

[thedigitalsin]

I've fallen way behind on updating the site - real life getting in the way and all. When I get a chance though, it will be updated, and I will do my best to light a fire under people's asses.

[JeffDM]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
What a depressing time it is to be a manga fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange, I would've thought not long ago people would've said it was a great time to be a manga fan, with a lot of volumes being released each month.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends what you mean "not long ago". I think that would have been a year ago or so, before a couple companies had scaled back (ADV &amp; CPM come to mind), Viz started SJA, CMX's Tenten and other things. What is Dark Horse doing lately? They too seem down significantly too.

[akcoll99]

[ QUOTE ]
JeffDM said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
What a depressing time it is to be a manga fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange, I would've thought not long ago people would've said it was a great time to be a manga fan, with a lot of volumes being released each month.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends what you mean "not long ago". I think that would have been a year ago or so, before a couple companies had scaled back (ADV &amp; CPM come to mind), Viz started SJA, CMX's Tenten and other things. What is Dark Horse doing lately? They too seem down significantly too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dark Horse has actually picked up their activity lately, especially with seinen and other titles aimed at older readers. They just announced a whole slew of horror manga titles, and they've got Eden, Space Pinchy, and several more Kazou Koike titles like Lady Snowblood and Crying Freeman coming out, plus the re-release of Oh My Goddess and the continued release of BotI and the Super Manga Blast titles. So, even as the market is scaling back, it's a pretty good time to be a fan of DH's manga line, IMO. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[JeffDM]

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
Dark Horse has actually picked up their activity lately, especially with seinen and other titles aimed at older readers. They just announced a whole slew of horror manga titles, and they've got Eden, Space Pinchy, and several more Kazou Koike titles like Lady Snowblood and Crying Freeman coming out, plus the re-release of Oh My Goddess and the continued release of BotI and the Super Manga Blast titles. So, even as the market is scaling back, it's a pretty good time to be a fan of DH's manga line, IMO. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

OK, so it looks like there is some hope from them. I was drawing from recent releases, not announcements.

[populuxe]

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
Space Pinchy

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to pay more attention to these announcements. This is good news.

[Jarred]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
Space Pinchy

[/ QUOTE ]

I need to pay more attention to these announcements. This is good news.

[/ QUOTE ]
See Staxy! It's not all gloom and doom!! /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif
(Does happy dance due to Beck and Blame! #2's arriving tomorrow)

[Chris Thai]

Well regardless of all this good news, it seems that hope for Tenten itself is lost. It makes me want to cry. /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[indigo0086]

I wonder, has anyone tried to contact the Oh Great representing the american public's view of cencored manga. Maybe we should amass a way to send our letters over there translated or something.

[BART]

Personally, I think CMX is gonna give the manga thing one more shot for a year, and then back out if they don't get the sales they want. Unless of course the latest Superman movie bombs badly, and then they'll come crawling back to us, because no one else will want to buy their comics...^_- Anyway, they're not getting the market penetration they anticipated, and they're probably just breaking even at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if they sell off their licenses soon.

[akcoll99]

[ QUOTE ]
Mortimer said:
Personally, I think CMX is gonna give the manga thing one more shot for a year, and then back out if they don't get the sales they want. Unless of course the latest Superman movie bombs badly, and then they'll come crawling back to us, because no one else will want to buy their comics...^_- Anyway, they're not getting the market penetration they anticipated, and they're probably just breaking even at this point. I wouldn't be surprised if they sell off their licenses soon.

[/ QUOTE ]


Um, yeah. Well, you've got the winking face in there, so I'm going to assume you're joking about the 'nobody buying thier comics' bit. But I do agree with you about them not making the same market penetration that other 'newcomers' like Del Rey and Broccoli have been able to make. Though I give them more than a year because they've made so many new licensing announcements recently. DC recently dropped their Humanoids Publishing line, but CMX has stuck around so far and is included quite heavily in their advertising. Now, if after all this, CMX still fails to break much ground, then I say let the speculation about its future begin... /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[The Pirate Queen]

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
But I do agree with you about them not making the same market penetration that other 'newcomers' like Del Rey and Broccoli have been able to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that Broccoli has better market penetration than CMX? I see far more CMX titles in local bookstores than Broccoli titles.

[Noodle]

[ QUOTE ]
Dani said:
[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
But I do agree with you about them not making the same market penetration that other 'newcomers' like Del Rey and Broccoli have been able to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that Broccoli has better market penetration than CMX? I see far more CMX titles in local bookstores than Broccoli titles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I see every one of Broccoli's books in stores ... they just don't have that many to begin with. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif I think they get into stores alright, they just need to get them released!

CMX is getting better with the bookstore market though, I will say.

edit for clarity.

[BART]

Dani: Perhaps, but I see more demand for Broccoli manga than I do for CMX. Out of the 4-5 new licenses they announce every few months, I only notice enthusiasm for 1-2, while everything which gets announced under Broccoli seems to be in demand.

[michaelwb]

[ QUOTE ]
Mortimer said:
Dani: Perhaps, but I see more demand for Broccoli manga than I do for CMX. Out of the 4-5 new licenses they announce every few months, I only notice enthusiasm for 1-2, while everything which gets announced under Broccoli seems to be in demand.

[/ QUOTE ]

You mean enthusiasm here on the AoD forums and perhaps in similar on-line forums? Historically there is not a lot of relationship between that and actual sales.

Or in the anime side SuperGals would be one of the best selling animes ever... /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[BART]

Well I also read Broccoli's blogs, and it seems they get a lot of fan input in regards to their manga, so I assume there's a significant demand for their work. I also remember reading somewhere that Juvenile Orion did better here than in Japan.

[michaelwb]

[ QUOTE ]
Mortimer said:
Well I also read Broccoli's blogs, and it seems they get a lot of fan input in regards to their manga, so I assume there's a significant demand for their work. I also remember reading somewhere that Juvenile Orion did better here than in Japan.

[/ QUOTE ]

As do I. And there's nothing that indicates amount of input in any meaningful way. And once again such things don't really have a direct linear relationship to sales. There are best selling titles that don't get much on-line buzz. And one's that get a lot of buzz but do not sell well.

Demand is measured in terms of sales. Not how many copies you see in your local bookstore or posts on an internet forum/blog, etc. That is called anectotal evidence and not really evidence of demand.

[Andre]

Just thought I'd share these--- found them while digging around for some order codes for stuff on Diamond's site [makes ordering at comic shops a gazillion times easier]

JUN05 3531 TENJHO TENGE MANGA #4 (O/A) (MR) (C: 4) SRP: $10.99 = $
JUN05 3532 TENJHO TENGE MANGA #5 (O/A) (MR) (C: 4) SRP: $10.99 = $
JUN05 3533 TENJHO TENGE MANGA #6 (O/A) (MR) (C: 4) SRP: $10.99 = $

These are for imported editions of Tengo Tenge, for those having trouble getting the original versions - if you have a comic shop nearby, you can order them. Even if they don't stock manga, they can get it and just about anythingelse fore you [also, if you set up an account, in most places you get a discount].

[bakedleech]

Special imports are not stocked items though, which means you probably won't be able to get these anymore. You need to preorder when the new version of Previews comes out. Sorry.

[akcoll99]

[ QUOTE ]
Dani said:
[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
But I do agree with you about them not making the same market penetration that other 'newcomers' like Del Rey and Broccoli have been able to make.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really think that Broccoli has better market penetration than CMX? I see far more CMX titles in local bookstores than Broccoli titles.

[/ QUOTE ]

Others kind of answered this already, but yes, I've noticed that Broccoli's titles like Aquarian Age and Galaxy Angel are usually stocked in much higher quantities in my local bookstores than any of the CMX titles, which at most will have about two copies of each volume on the shelf. Overall, I wouldn't know who is selling better, especially since Broccoli has a much smaller output, but to me it seems they've done a better job than CMX at getting shelf space at Waldens, Borders, etc.

[thedigitalsin]

Strange that Aya's panties on the cover are showing (http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/4464_400x600.jpg), when you consider what lengths CMX has gone through to make sure nothing of that sort gets seen at all.

[BART]

They must be desperately trying to attract the horny guys who have moved on to Battle Vixens.

[akcoll99]

[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
Strange that Aya's panties on the cover are showing (http://www.dccomics.com/media/covers/4464_400x600.jpg), when you consider what lengths CMX has gone through to make sure nothing of that sort gets seen at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they think you'll think it's part of the background and that she just has a funny shaped thigh...or something. Who can fathom the ways of CMX...? /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

I'm surprised nobody's talking about volume four. I don't have the Japanese volumes, but it seems like the editing went down significantly. We get quite a few panty shots this time, and even some clevage, which just shocked and corrupted me.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
JosephineFortune said:
I'm surprised nobody's talking about volume four.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps because the people familiar with the Japanese edition aren't buying the CMX edition.

My copy of volume 4 is still on order (my copy of volume 3 is in the same order, so I haven't even seen that volume yet), but when I get it, I'll post here if someone doesn't do it in the meantime.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have the Japanese volumes, but it seems like the editing went down significantly. We get quite a few panty shots this time, and even some clevage, which just shocked and corrupted me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think volume 4 probably has less panty shots than previous volumes.

Are there any particular panels which you think may have been edited?

[Ruroni]

Well Volume 4 cover(CMX) seems to have darkened in the seethru garment lady friend is wearing.

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
JosephineFortune said:
I'm surprised nobody's talking about volume four.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps because the people familiar with the Japanese edition aren't buying the CMX edition.

My copy of volume 4 is still on order (my copy of volume 3 is in the same order, so I haven't even seen that volume yet), but when I get it, I'll post here if someone doesn't do it in the meantime.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't have the Japanese volumes, but it seems like the editing went down significantly. We get quite a few panty shots this time, and even some clevage, which just shocked and corrupted me.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think volume 4 probably has less panty shots than previous volumes.

Are there any particular panels which you think may have been edited?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sad to say but my care is starting to wane as CMX is still stonewalling. I've had the book sitting on my desk for a week and hadn't really flipped through it. In any case, here's things that look out of place to me without a tank to compare. I'll scan the CMX one for the page if we still care to do it.

Yellow poster - Perhaps the nipplage was toned down?

53 - Skirt lowered? The shot looks like a planned panty shot.

58 - Handkercheif added back in? The skull pattern just looks lazily put in and isn't scaled in the 3 panels.

63 - Lines on back for handkercheif, but its not shaded. That would match with her being topless on page 58.

74-75 - Underwear added to sex scene.

173-179 - Bra and panties added. At least they got better at being consistent between panels.

188-189 - Bra Added.

215 - Skirt moved?

[Chris Thai]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:

Sad to say but my care is starting to wane as CMX is still stonewalling. I've had the book sitting on my desk for a week and hadn't really flipped through it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's sad, that's how I feel too. The whole thing just seems hopeless. Anything that would seem to work seems a bit fanatical, and fanaticism is always wrong.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
ShrinkNerv4Eva said:
It's sad, that's how I feel too. The whole thing just seems hopeless. Anything that would seem to work seems a bit fanatical, and fanaticism is always wrong.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't expect CMX to change its mind (eg re-release the previous volumes unedited etc). However, going by what JosephineFortune has suggested, I wonder if its possible CMX might be trying to reduce the editing (perhaps gradually eliminate editing completely...?) without having to actually admit they were "wrong".

At this point, I'm interested in identifying the edits, not to get CMX to change its ways, but to shame them. Hope is irrelevant /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
Yellow poster - Perhaps the nipplage was toned down?

[/ QUOTE ]

Probably not an edit.

[ QUOTE ]
53 - Skirt lowered? The shot looks like a planned panty shot.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the skirt does cover the panties in the original.

[ QUOTE ]
58 - Handkercheif added back in? The skull pattern just looks lazily put in and isn't scaled in the 3 panels.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the handkerchief is in the original in all three panels. So Oh! great's work is lazy, is it? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
63 - Lines on back for handkercheif, but its not shaded. That would match with her being topless on page 58.

[/ QUOTE ]

No edit there.

[ QUOTE ]
74-75 - Underwear added to sex scene.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are edits.

[ QUOTE ]
173-179 - Bra and panties added. At least they got better at being consistent between panels.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those are edits too.

[ QUOTE ]
188-189 - Bra Added.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, there's a bra in the original panels.

[ QUOTE ]
215 - Skirt moved?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're referring to there. On page 217 of the Japanese edition (page numbers for the Japanese edition are 2 higher than for the CMX edition), there's nothing which seems "worthy" of censorship.

[Dicrel Seijin]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
I don't expect CMX to change its mind (eg re-release the previous volumes unedited etc). However, going by what JosephineFortune has suggested, I wonder if its possible CMX might be trying to reduce the editing (perhaps gradually eliminate editing completely...?) without having to actually admit they were "wrong".

[/ QUOTE ]

Intriguing idea.

The question does then become, what volume will be the tipping point where it will be acceptable to buy it?

I'm still going to buy the originals at this point. (After much procrastination, I'm nearing the 100-kanji mark, so about 5% to 10% there? /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif)

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:

58 - Handkercheif added back in? The skull pattern just looks lazily put in and isn't scaled in the 3 panels.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, the handkerchief is in the original in all three panels. So Oh! great's work is lazy, is it? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Just seemed like a little scaling in photoshop before filling in the texture might have been nice. The book is new enough that I would think the panels had screentones added with a computer. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
215 - Skirt moved?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're referring to there. On page 217 of the Japanese edition (page numbers for the Japanese edition are 2 higher than for the CMX edition), there's nothing which seems "worthy" of censorship.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was referring to the two 'duplicate' panels where she's kicking at the guy and his head changes. Just seemed weird for the skirt to curve under her leg like that, and also a missed panty shot opportunity.

Overall there were certainly more panty shots left in. Keep in mind that I'm just flipping through (not even reading) and looking at stuff that jumped otu at me without any reference. /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
215 - Skirt moved?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're referring to there. On page 217 of the Japanese edition (page numbers for the Japanese edition are 2 higher than for the CMX edition), there's nothing which seems "worthy" of censorship.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was referring to the two 'duplicate' panels where she's kicking at the guy and his head changes. Just seemed weird for the skirt to curve under her leg like that, and also a missed panty shot opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those panels appear on page 219 of the Japanese edition. I presume you got the page numbers incorrect for the CMX edition, otherwise two pages have been deleted from the CMX edition between roughly pages 190 and 219 (but since I wouldn't think there was anything objectionable in that section, I wouldn't expect pages have been cut out).

Those panels do have a panty shot (since Maya's lifting her leg), so if the CMX edition has no panty shot it's an edit (although the skirt does basically follow the form of the body in the Japanese edition as well).

[akcoll99]

[ QUOTE ]
Kousaka Makoto said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
I don't expect CMX to change its mind (eg re-release the previous volumes unedited etc). However, going by what JosephineFortune has suggested, I wonder if its possible CMX might be trying to reduce the editing (perhaps gradually eliminate editing completely...?) without having to actually admit they were "wrong".

[/ QUOTE ]

Intriguing idea.

The question does then become, what volume will be the tipping point where it will be acceptable to buy it?

I'm still going to buy the originals at this point. (After much procrastination, I'm nearing the 100-kanji mark, so about 5% to 10% there? /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it would be hilarious if DC did announcement that as of volume X the series would no longer be edited and sales shot up from that volume on. Like we've said, sales are the only thing that's going to make Warner Bros./DC listen at this point... /images/graemlins/relief.gif

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
Just seemed like a little scaling in photoshop before filling in the texture might have been nice. The book is new enough that I would think the panels had screentones added with a computer. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got an interview (somewhere) with Oh! great, in which IIRC there are some pics of how he puts the artwork in a particular scene (from a later volume) together. No computer used.

Each Oh! great panel is handcrafted /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Argent]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
Just seemed like a little scaling in photoshop before filling in the texture might have been nice. The book is new enough that I would think the panels had screentones added with a computer. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I've got an interview (somewhere) with Oh! great, in which IIRC there are some pics of how he puts the artwork in a particular scene (from a later volume) together. No computer used.

Each Oh! great panel is handcrafted /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

In Comickers Pen &amp; Ink(DMP is bringing this out here next year) there is a whole series of images that show step by step what goes into one of the images. Oh! Great is also featured in Color Marker(from the same "Manga Start-Up" series) and several other books and magazines focused on the art itself. I haven't seen the others but if you want an example, Pen &amp; Ink is a good one.

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
215 - Skirt moved?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure what you're referring to there. On page 217 of the Japanese edition (page numbers for the Japanese edition are 2 higher than for the CMX edition), there's nothing which seems "worthy" of censorship.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was referring to the two 'duplicate' panels where she's kicking at the guy and his head changes. Just seemed weird for the skirt to curve under her leg like that, and also a missed panty shot opportunity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Those panels appear on page 219 of the Japanese edition. I presume you got the page numbers incorrect for the CMX edition, otherwise two pages have been deleted from the CMX edition between roughly pages 190 and 219 (but since I wouldn't think there was anything objectionable in that section, I wouldn't expect pages have been cut out).

Those panels do have a panty shot (since Maya's lifting her leg), so if the CMX edition has no panty shot it's an edit (although the skirt does basically follow the form of the body in the Japanese edition as well).

[/ QUOTE ]

I was on crack, it appears on page 217. Page 216 is numbered, but my brain went into L&gt;R mode, so I subtraced instead of adding. Page 219 is the first of the omake. So that begs the question, where did 2 missing pages go?

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Hobie-wan said:
So that begs the question, where did 2 missing pages go?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it has to be before page 53, because the two editions were already 2 pages out of synch by then.

I'm assuming there are in fact 2 pages missing, and it's not a case of, for example, CMX not counting the fold-out mini-posters as pages.

Having a quick look at the Japanese edition, the book starts as follows:
1-2 Fold-out mini-poster with Aya (yellow tone)
3-4 On reverse of poster is Aya agai (blue tone)
5 Colour page (first page of chapter)
6-7 Two page colour title pages for chapter 20
8 Contents page
9 Start of B&amp;W pages of chapter 20
My guess is that, if pages have been cut out, it would be pages 6 and 7, the two page colour spread with a pic of Maya on it. If there's any image in the first 53 pages which may cause CMX to think twice, it's that pic, since Maya is wearing a shirt which shows not only a swastika, but Jesus Christ on an inverted cross. And the swastika is superimposed on the Christ figure. And the Christ figure has no loin cloth, so penis and pubic hair are visible. (Also there's a small swastika on the sword sheath that Maya is holding.)

[PhilipReuben]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
If there's any image in the first 53 pages which may cause CMX to think twice, it's that pic, since Maya is wearing a shirt which shows not only a swastika, but Jesus Christ on an inverted cross. And the swastika is superimposed on the Christ figure. And the Christ figure has no loin cloth, so penis and pubic hair are visible.

[/ QUOTE ]

rofl!

It could be like a game where we keep adding things to list, to see how much more gratuitously offensive the picture could get...

[kimmiepooh]

I understand how the swastika could be taken as offensive in America, but to clarify, I visited Japan in October of 2005, and someone asked the question (I was in a tour group with my family) of isn't the swastika found to be offensive in Japan? well oddly enough, as it turns out, the swastika is supposed to be sacred/holy in Japan and they don't find it offensive like we do. /images/graemlins/knowital.gif

[michaelwb]

[ QUOTE ]
kimmiepooh said:
I understand how the swastika could be taken as offensive in America, but to clarify, I visited Japan in October of 2005, and someone asked the question (I was in a tour group with my family) of isn't the swastika found to be offensive in Japan? well oddly enough, as it turns out, the swastika is supposed to be sacred/holy in Japan and they don't find it offensive like we do. /images/graemlins/knowital.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would it be? Japan isn't Europe and the West.

It's an ancient symbol pre-dating the Nazi's use of it by over 6,000 years.

For Buddhist it is seen as a symbol of Buddha's heart and mind, often appearing sculpture.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika) is useful as ever for a quick web references.

[kimmiepooh]

About those 2 missing pages: I think that they could be on pgs.67-68 of the Japanese edition. On page 67, there is a shot of Aya taking a bath naked (underneath a waterfall) and on page 68, there is a full frontal view of the continuation of the waterfall scene where the whole page is revealed to show that she's standing underneath a waterfall where it shows not only a large panel of Aya's breasts, but then again on the last panel of the page it shows Aya standing completely naked underneath the waterfall. Since it would be inappropriate to put a bra and panties on Aya in this scene, it makes sense why they left it out. But still, that doesn't make it an acceptable excuse for CMX to edit that scene.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
kimmiepooh said:
the swastika is supposed to be sacred/holy in Japan and they don't find it offensive like we do. /images/graemlins/knowital.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, but as pointed out in the wikipedia link michaelwb provided, the Buddhist swastika faces left and the lines are horizontal. The Nazi swastika faces right and the symbol is at an angle (balanced on a corner). The two swastikas in the picture are the Nazi form.

[ QUOTE ]
kimmiepooh said:
About those 2 missing pages: I think that they could be on pgs.67-68 of the Japanese edition.

[/ QUOTE ]

I considered that as well, but as I mentioned before, the two editions were already out of synch by 2 pages by the time you get to page 53. So if two pages were in fact deleted, those two pages must occur before page 53.

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
kimmiepooh said:
I understand how the swastika could be taken as offensive in America, but to clarify, I visited Japan in October of 2005, and someone asked the question (I was in a tour group with my family) of isn't the swastika found to be offensive in Japan? well oddly enough, as it turns out, the swastika is supposed to be sacred/holy in Japan and they don't find it offensive like we do. /images/graemlins/knowital.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The other thing is that the swastika, as taken by Hitler, has the ends bent the other way. Its too bad as its a cool symbol that was used long before he perverted its meaning in most of the world's eyes. /images/graemlins/anger100.gif

[JeffDM]

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
I think it would be hilarious if DC did announcement that as of volume X the series would no longer be edited and sales shot up from that volume on. Like we've said, sales are the only thing that's going to make Warner Bros./DC listen at this point... /images/graemlins/relief.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I would be pessimistic that it would ever happen. So long as DC is part of a multimedia conglomerate, I think the CMX line will just be treated as the bastard stepchild subject to the whims and dictates of the conglomerate. Their preexisting comics labels are kind of grandfathered.

[Chris Thai]

How did we start talking about Swastikas?

Anyway, I think the best case scenario is if CMX goes out of business and some other distributor picks up the TenTen license.

[JeffDM]

[ QUOTE ]
ShrinkNerv4Eva said:
How did we start talking about Swastikas?

[/ QUOTE ]

It was because of a comment saying that one of Maya's shirts having one on it.

I kind of lost track which one it was in the discussion, it appears that both directions have been around since ancient times.

[Inkthinker]

The manji/swastika also appears on Natsume Shin's eyepatch in upcoming chapters.

[Vicserr]

[ QUOTE ]
kimmiepooh said:
I understand how the swastika could be taken as offensive in America, but to clarify, I visited Japan in October of 2005, and someone asked the question (I was in a tour group with my family) of isn't the swastika found to be offensive in Japan? well oddly enough, as it turns out, the swastika is supposed to be sacred/holy in Japan and they don't find it offensive like we do. /images/graemlins/knowital.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends, there's a buddist symbol called the Manji and it's just like a Swastka, but pointing in the opposite direction and there's the whole nazi Germany fetish some have in Japan... /images/graemlins/shy10000.gif

or maybe Oh Great wanted to piss ppl off, so who knows /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[indigo0086]

I wish dark-horse got to this manga first, they aren't afraid of the swastika, nazi (Hellsing) or not (Blade of the Immortal)

[kimmiepooh]

Another reason not to buy volume 4: the waterfall scene on pgs.67-68, they cut out of the scene Aya's nipples and added in a little panty/bikini underwear to cover up Aya's well......you know what I'm talking about. Notice how on pg.68 of the CMX version, Aya has no nipples on her breasts! Also, they added panties for the panel where you should be able to see her fully nude. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[sasuke]

So I went to Barnes and Noble today and went to the manga shelf. I then notice that they have Kikaider Code 02 Graphic Novel 1 and it is strink wrap. I pick it up to look at it then I notice the "for mature readers" sticker. That got me thinking, "why would CMX leave kikaider unedited?" Does this mean we will see ten ten unedit down the road?

[Chris Thai]

I don't think so. They haven't changed yet, they won't change now. They won't even admit they screwed up.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
jcstr said:
So I went to Barnes and Noble today and went to the manga shelf. I then notice that they have Kikaider Code 02 Graphic Novel 1 and it is strink wrap. I pick it up to look at it then I notice the "for mature readers" sticker. That got me thinking, "why would CMX leave kikaider unedited?" Does this mean we will see ten ten unedit down the road?

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC even when CMX first published Tenjho Tenge edited, they had already announced/published another title which was marked as for mature readers. It's simply that TenTen was the particular manga which they decided to try to sell to a wider (teen) market than its original older reader market, so they edited it.

[sasuke]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
jcstr said:
So I went to Barnes and Noble today and went to the manga shelf. I then notice that they have Kikaider Code 02 Graphic Novel 1 and it is strink wrap. I pick it up to look at it then I notice the "for mature readers" sticker. That got me thinking, "why would CMX leave kikaider unedited?" Does this mean we will see ten ten unedit down the road?

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC even when CMX first published Tenjho Tenge edited, they had already announced/published another title which was marked as for mature readers. It's simply that TenTen was the particular manga which they decided to try to sell to a wider (teen) market than its original older reader market, so they edited it.

[/ QUOTE ]
You know the whole thing really suck. Is the tenjho tenge manga doing any good?

[Mr. Nail Bat]

[ QUOTE ]
jcstr said:
You know the whole thing really suck. Is the tenjho tenge manga doing any good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Word is that it is.

[JeffDM]

[ QUOTE ]
jcstr said:
You know the whole thing really suck. Is the tenjho tenge manga doing any good?

[/ QUOTE ]

Relative to other CMX titles, it's one of their top sellers, but that is not saying much at all. The last numbers I saw were about 2k books per volume when competitors don't seem to have problems pushing out a few times that with a mid-range seller.

[Chris Thai]

Dammit, we don't want it to be one of their top sellers. It is good though.

[thedigitalsin]

Found some free time (FINALLY) and the site needs to be dusted off.

A new approach might also be necessary in regards to this whole mess. I have an idea in mind which could be awful(ly hilarious), but getting the image comparisons up first is most important. If you guys have any ideas at all, feel free to voice them here.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
Found some free time (FINALLY) and the site needs to be dusted off.

[/ QUOTE ]

My copies of CMX volumes 3 and 4 are still in the mail. If I receive them in the next week, I'll compare and scan whatever is necessary (after that I'll be overseas until mid February). If someone could scan either the CMX versions or the Japanese versions, though, that'd cut my time in half - I've no real skill in scanning anyway.

Has anyone created list of edits for volume 4 yet...?

In the meantime, you could always deal with the additional edits I found for volume 2 /images/graemlins/happy.gif (See my post in this thread on 30 September 2005).

[Argent]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
Found some free time (FINALLY) and the site needs to be dusted off.

[/ QUOTE ]

My copies of CMX volumes 3 and 4 are still in the mail. If I receive them in the next week, I'll compare and scan whatever is necessary (after that I'll be overseas until mid February). If someone could scan either the CMX versions or the Japanese versions, though, that'd cut my time in half - I've no real skill in scanning anyway.

Has anyone created list of edits for volume 4 yet...?

In the meantime, you could always deal with the additional edits I found for volume 2 /images/graemlins/happy.gif (See my post in this thread on 30 September 2005).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have a list up on ListerX either late Monday or early Tuesday. I wasn't able to find a copy of volume 4 until just a few days ago and have been busy with work.

[hobie]

[ QUOTE ]
Argent said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
thedigitalsin said:
Found some free time (FINALLY) and the site needs to be dusted off.

[/ QUOTE ]

My copies of CMX volumes 3 and 4 are still in the mail. If I receive them in the next week, I'll compare and scan whatever is necessary (after that I'll be overseas until mid February). If someone could scan either the CMX versions or the Japanese versions, though, that'd cut my time in half - I've no real skill in scanning anyway.

Has anyone created list of edits for volume 4 yet...?

In the meantime, you could always deal with the additional edits I found for volume 2 /images/graemlins/happy.gif (See my post in this thread on 30 September 2005).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll have a list up on ListerX either late Monday or early Tuesday. I wasn't able to find a copy of volume 4 until just a few days ago and have been busy with work.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can scan the CMX #4. I was just kind of 'meh' this time around, but I'll still do it for the cause.

So... anyone else pick up 5? I'm only about halfway through, and there was what looked like some of the same from volume one in a couple sex scenes... I can't confirm this, but it looked like we got zoomed panels judging from the halftone, bra and panties added (though they were much fancier than in 1), looks like one of the characters may have been sort of erased from one panel during the sex, and we're missing the other side of the color poster ;_;

We get a little more leniency each time though, I think. The cover has a peek of Maya's panties through her shorts as well as her nipples and some possible... uh, crotch cleavage, the back cover even has some part of the breast visible underneath Aya's shirt as well as her panties up her skirt, and inside we do get some rear cleavage, but not much, and we still don't get bare butts (Aya's wearing panties on page 37 where I'm pretty sure she's not supposed to be).

The most questionable panels are on:
- page 29 (top half, just Mitsuomi and Kuzunoha's heads cropped pretty close in)
- page 34 (middle panel, it's cropped just below Mitsuomi's torso and Kuzunoha's wearing a really crappy bra... she's wearing bra, panties, and a skirt when we first see her on page 26, skirt's still there on page 28, and she's wearing rather decorative bra and panties throughout the sequence),
- page 70 (top panel, Kuzunoha's swimming in some sort of black miasma and has lost her lower arms, and lower right panel, there are two blur spots on either side of her face and she's got... er, saliva trailing from her mouth)
- page 72 (panel in middle page, Kuzunoha's body is in a rather unnatural position, judging by the panties, and her torso disappears into patchy whiteness... looks like a sloppy erase job with part of Mitsuomi's shoulder still visible). Once again in mostly decorative bra and panties throughout the sequence until page 74, where her bra clearly vanishes.
- There's also a banner across Maya's bare breasts on the chapter 31 title page.
- I'm also sort of suspicious of the two panels of "static" on page 71.

Confirmation, anyone?

[Argent]

I said that I'd have the volume four list up on ListerX a couple of weeks ago. Various problems prevented that, but I should have lists for both volumes four and five early next week.

[kimmiepooh]

on page 26 of the original Japanese manga, there was a shot of Kuzunoha showing her breasts and bush with the skirt lifted up. The bra and panty shot is a definite edit that wasn't in my original copy of this sex scene. On page 29, there should be a shot of Mitsuomi doing Kuzunoha doggie-style against a desk, as well as another shot on the bottom right-hand panel of page 30 of Mitsuomi shown from a different angle, still doing doggie on Kuzunoha. Also, on page 37, on the top left panel, there should be a shot of Aya in the kitchen nude in an apron. CMX probably would've edited this by adding a bra and panties. Also on page 45, on the bottom two panels, there is a shot of Aya shown from the rear taking a shower. Now, back to Kuzunoha. On page 73, on the top right-hand panel, there should be a shot of Kuzunoha in the nude, where in the original you can see her breasts and bush. CMX probably edited this by, you got it, a bra and panties.

[populuxe]

[ QUOTE ]
JosephineFortune said:
We get a little more leniency each time though, I think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, how kind of CMX. They've become almost perceptibly less draconian in their censorship.

[Argent]

Finally up on ListerX. Sorry it's taken so long.

Volume 4 Edit List (http://www.listerx.com/article.asp?ID=85)

Volume 5 Edit List (http://www.listerx.com/article.asp?ID=86)

As always if I missed anything let me know.

[Chris Thai]

[ QUOTE ]
kimmiepooh said:
on page 26 of the original Japanese manga, there was a shot of Kuzunoha showing her breasts and bush with the skirt lifted up. The bra and panty shot is a definite edit that wasn't in my original copy of this sex scene. On page 29, there should be a shot of Mitsuomi doing Kuzunoha doggie-style against a desk, as well as another shot on the bottom right-hand panel of page 30 of Mitsuomi shown from a different angle, still doing doggie on Kuzunoha. Also, on page 37, on the top left panel, there should be a shot of Aya in the kitchen nude in an apron. CMX probably would've edited this by adding a bra and panties. Also on page 45, on the bottom two panels, there is a shot of Aya shown from the rear taking a shower. Now, back to Kuzunoha. On page 73, on the top right-hand panel, there should be a shot of Kuzunoha in the nude, where in the original you can see her breasts and bush. CMX probably edited this by, you got it, a bra and panties.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uhh, that's volume 5.

[kimmiepooh]

That's what I was referring to, volume 5. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[Chris Thai]

[ QUOTE ]
kimmiepooh said:
That's what I was referring to, volume 5. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

O. /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif Sorry, Looked at the subject, I assumed it was meant to be about volume 3 or 4. My bad.

[kimmiepooh]

That's ok. It's only natural that you were confused. Someone should update others that we are at least right now, discussing volume 5. Before we were discussing volumes 3 and 4. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[hobie]

I'll try to remember to scan the english books this weekend.

[golthin]

[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
So is this it? Has the fight been fought, and we lost? It appears that the highly censored Tenjho Tenge is selling well and CMX has no intention of changing their ways.

Personally, all this recent censorship seems to have killed my love of manga. I'm reading almost nothing these days. It's just no fun anymore. It seems I can't pick up a single new volume of manga and be assured it won't be censored. What a depressing time it is to be a manga fan.

[/ QUOTE ]
buy manga from delrey, that is what I do.

[golthin]

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
[ QUOTE ]
JeffDM said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
What a depressing time it is to be a manga fan.

[/ QUOTE ]

Strange, I would've thought not long ago people would've said it was a great time to be a manga fan, with a lot of volumes being released each month.

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends what you mean "not long ago". I think that would have been a year ago or so, before a couple companies had scaled back (ADV &amp; CPM come to mind), Viz started SJA, CMX's Tenten and other things. What is Dark Horse doing lately? They too seem down significantly too.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dark Horse has actually picked up their activity lately, especially with seinen and other titles aimed at older readers. They just announced a whole slew of horror manga titles, and they've got Eden, Space Pinchy, and several more Kazou Koike titles like Lady Snowblood and Crying Freeman coming out, plus the re-release of Oh My Goddess and the continued release of BotI and the Super Manga Blast titles. So, even as the market is scaling back, it's a pretty good time to be a fan of DH's manga line, IMO. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]I find myself buying more DH and Delray stuff lately. I wish they would hurry with EDEN.

[thedigitalsin]

Go check it out (http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/tenten). You'll notice a URL change. Don't worry, the old link still works; it'll simply redirect you to the new URL.

Would any of you guys like to join me? I could use a couple of mods on this new site, and take care of any updates I may miss.

Also going to need the edited scans of volumes 4 and 5.

[monika]

I did this today - list of the edits in Vol. 11 of the German release (a friend got it for me a few months ago - Those Germans are efficient at getting out manga. Their release is up to vol. 13. While looking through their website (http://www.paninicomics.de), I also noticed they didn't retitle S&amp;M no Sekai.)

Edits to German TenTen vol. 11

1. Back cover image of Masataka replaced by the one from the insert where Maya's nipple is visible.
2. Page numbers shifted
3. pg. 10: Text not in a box gets put in a box, which ends up covering Aya's boob a bit.
4. Sound Effects throughout are redone inline in German. Technique names, though, are written in Japanese with romanji next to the characters.

I especially like #1.

I can't read German well enough to justify getting these instead of the Japanese ones, but if anyone does, there you go.

[thedigitalsin]

http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/tenten/?page_id=5

As noted on the front page, I'm going to need scans (http://digitalsin.bebopboard.net/tenten/?p=12). If you can, please help out.

[Natsume_Maya]

Thanks for your work, digitalsin.

I've got volumes 3 and 4 now. Haven't checked the translation yet (although I've seen at least two instances of toning down dialogue), but from a quick glance at the artwork, I'd just point out the following in relation to volume 4:

Cover edited in that Aya's dress has been made a solid black colour, whereas her dress in the Japanese edition is kind of see through.

Page 74 (CMX edition) panel 2 - apart from panties added, Bob's left hand deleted.

Page 74 panel 3 - Bob deleted from behind Chiaki.

Page 85 panel 5 - the word "Fuck!!" (in English in the Japanese edition) has been "translated" as "Damn!!" in the English edition /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Page 176 panel 4 - apart from bra added, panties have been added too.

Page 204 panel 5 - Maya's skirt lengthened to cover more of panties.

Page 211 panel 1 - apart from crease lines deleted from panties, skirt lengthened to cover more of panties.

BTW, the additional edits to volume 2 in this post (http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1157244&amp;page=0&amp;view=c ollapsed&amp;sb=5&amp;o=&amp;vc=1) haven't been incorporated yet.

[Natsume_Maya]

Okay, I've gone through the translation for volume 3 of the CMX release.

Page 161, a number of references to sexual matters were toned down:

Panel 1:
CMX line - Whoa, don't point your chest at me like that!
My translation of Japanese version - Oi, oi, just don't point those breasts (or boobs or tits) at me.
This is a pretty minor change, but in the light of the changes which follow on this page, I expect the censors felt that "chest" was a bit less sexual in nature than "breasts". While translation is partly a matter of judgment, I felt "breasts" was a more literal translation than "chest".

CMX line - Those babies are lethal weapons to a guy like me!
My translation - Your breasts/boobs/tits are like lethal weapons to me.

Panel 2:
CMX line - Just three things in this world I'm vulnerable to: mushrooms, kids crying... ...and you.
My translation - The only things in this world I can't beat are Shiitake, kids crying and... ...your breasts/boobs/tits.
Note also that there's a translation error in this line by CMX. There's a reference to "shiitake" but everyone (whether fan translators of the manga or anime, or the Geneon translator of the anime) translates this as "shiitake mushrooms". In fact, Bunshichi is referring to the brawny teacher nicknamed Shiitake. In the manga, the word "Shiitake" is rendered in katakana, not in kanji (as you might expect if the author was referring to the mushrooms).

Panel 3:
CMX line - I bet I'd throw in the towel after three minutes
My translation - With your breasts and my di_k, I'd definitely give up in 3 minutes.
I've written "dick" as "di_k" because the Japanese release also uses a substitute character in spelling (ie the usual "O" character for censorship).

CMX line - (By the way, did you know there's a hotel right next door?)
My translation - (By the way, did you know the building next door is a love hotel?)
To play the devil's advocate, CMX arguably left out because "love hotel" would require a translation note...? Though on the other hand, given the censorship in this series, I guess even a translation note about love hotels would be censored...

CMX line - All right, already! What, are you going for the harassment of the year award...
My translation - That's enough! You sexual harrassment demon.

Page 173, another reference to sex toned down:
Panel 3:
CMX lines -
Maya: ...Well? Your call.
Maya: Do you wanna do it?
Bunshichi: If you're talking about hooking up, sure.
Bunshichi: If you mean fighting, I'll pass.
My translation of Japanese version -
Maya: ...So, after all that, what now?
Maya: Wanna do it?
Bunshichi: If you mean sex, yeah.
Bunshichi: If you mean fight, I'll pass.

Also a couple of minor things; I wouldn't consider them censorship, but point them out here:

Page 33, the last panel, the sound effects have been deleted. An omission, I guess.

Page 176, Mitsuomi says "I'll be there in a few minutes." in the CMX edition. The Japanese edition uses "I'll be there in 3 minutes." A minor change substituting "few" for "3", but the book tends to refer to 3 minutes in relation to the limit of Mitsuomi's strength.

[Edit: this last change becomes a bit unstuck in CMX's volume 4, because then both Mitsuomi and Kagurazaka refer to 3 minutes, not a few minutes.]

[kimmiepooh]

The way in which CMX continues to bungle the translation and everything else which makes the original manga version of Tenjho Tenge cool, all they end up doing is confusing the reader so much that the real translation gets lost. All they had to do was realize that it was his name and not mushrooms. This confuses the reader furthermore, because let's be honest here: due to CMX's errr, what would you call it? a translation error? C'mon people, think about what you're doing for Pete's sake! I agree with you. I think that all they had to do was say it was about the teacher, named Shiitake. But I would also say that CMX hasn't done enough research on the translation side of things, because they obviously don't know the difference between katakana and kanji at all which just makes it worse in the end and harder to translate. I think that CMX also is attempting to edit the sexual dialogue by changing it more into, well slang if you ask me.

[Aiia]

This might have come up before (couldn't check all previous topics) but I checked with my contacts, and it's standard procedure at Kodansha to show the changes in a foreign version manga to the author/mangaka before giving permission to the foreign publisher about the changes. So Ohgure-sensei approved of every single page. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

Not that this makes any change at all, but at least I personally wanted to know and thought I should share the info. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
kimmiepooh said:
The way in which CMX continues to bungle the translation and everything else which makes the original manga version of Tenjho Tenge cool, all they end up doing is confusing the reader so much that the real translation gets lost. All they had to do was realize that it was his name and not mushrooms.

[/ QUOTE ]

Everyone makes that error in the West, so it's understandable if CMX made the same mistake. As I mentioned, fan translations of the manga refer to mushrooms, as do fan translations of the anime, as does the licensed R1 DVD by Geneon.

I only really intended to raise that issue incidentally. In general I'm happy with the translation (although not as literal as I'd like).

I should mention that in a number of places, the word "kill" in the Japanese edition of volume 3 (usually used by Nagi) was replaced by words like "beat the snot outta". (But OTOH, you could argue that Nagi never really intends to kill people, and the CMX translation helps emphasise the fact that Aya had a voice in her head telling her really to kill - when Aya uses the word "kill", it's translated as such in the CMX edition.)

[Natsume_Maya]

I've looked through the first 3 chapters of volume 4 (there are 7 chapters in total).

Instances of censorship:

Page 43 (CMX edition):
Panel 1-
CMX line - "You stupid, frickin' ditz!!"
Japanese version - "You shitty fag/gay/homo!!"
("Shit" not used, and "fag/gay/homo" not used.)

Panel 2-
CMX line - refers to cutting off Kagurazaka's "buddy"
Japanese - refers to cutting off Kagurazaka's "dick"

Panel 4-
CMX line - "Dammit!!"
Japanese - "Shit!!"

CMX line - "I never should've let that dork protect Mitsuomi-san!!"
Japanese - "Shit!! I shouldn't have left it to that kind of guy to protect Mitsuomi-san!!"
("Shit" omitted.)

Page 56:
Panel 3-
CMX line - refers to "the foreigner"
Japanese - refers to "the black guy"

Page 61:
Panel 3-
CMX line - "Do nothin' You'll hurt yourself. Get the hell out of my way before you pull something!"
Japanese - "No, no, no, however you put it, you're injured. Outta the way, fuck you."
("Fuck you" omitted. In the Japanese edition, these words are written in katakana: "Fuakku Yu-")

Page 62:
Panel 3-
CMX line - refers to "relegating me to the sidelines"
Japanese - refers to "shitty supporting role"
("Shitty" omitted.)

Page 75:
Panel 3-
CMX line - "...to sleep in every morning until noon?"
Japanese - "every day, have sex and sleep til noon..."
(Reference to sex omitted.)

Other comments:

Page 14 (CMX edition), panel 2-
CMX line - "Nii-san...?!"
Japanese version - "Ani...ue...!?"
Both mean "older brother" but it's kind of weird that CMX translated one Japanese word into another (albeit more familiar) Japanese word /images/graemlins/happy.gif (And Maya never calls her brother "(o)nii-san").

Page 56, panel 1-
CMX version -
Nagi: Where'd he go?
Nagi: We were slugging it out and...
Maya: What are you talking about?!
Japanese version -
Nagi: Where'd Dio go?
Nagi: Where's Dio!?
Maya: There's no such person!!
Reference to Dio omitted. I assume "Dio" is a reference to Dio Brando from the manga "Jojo's Bizarre Adventures". Mitsuomi apparently looks like Dio.

Page 79, panel 2-
Bob's side comment "Is that Nakasone?" is omitted. I guess this is a reference to former Japanese prime minister Nakasone Yasuhiro, who looks kinda like the teacher in the story (Toudou-hanshi).

Page 81, panel 4 and page 82, panel 1-
"No. 3 kendo club" is changed to just "kendo club" in the CMX version. There are actually nine kendo clubs at Toudou Gakuen, but the CMX translation suggests there's only one.

Page 85, panel 4 and page 87, panel 2-
"Kappa" in the Japanese version is changed to "lizard-man" and "lizard-boy" respectively.

Page 94, panel 4-
CMX's edition has *Aya* saying "Aya... you... you're..." This is obviously an error. Aya should be saying "O-Oneechan, you're..."

When I've reviewed the last 4 chapters, I'll update this post.

[GodaiStudios]

[ QUOTE ]
Aiia said:
This might have come up before (couldn't check all previous topics) but I checked with my contacts, and it's standard procedure at Kodansha to show the changes in a foreign version manga to the author/mangaka before giving permission to the foreign publisher about the changes. So Ohgure-sensei approved of every single page. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

Not that this makes any change at all, but at least I personally wanted to know and thought I should share the info. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Might that not depend on 1) the contract (in case it's an agent for Ohgure) and 2) even if that's the case, a possible misunderstanding as to its viability when it comes to selling TenTen in the US?

He still may not have a clue, or have been told it won't sell unless it's censored and forced into approving it. There are simply far too many unknown factors, don't you think?

[Aiia]

[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
Might that not depend on 1) the contract (in case it's an agent for Ohgure) and 2) even if that's the case, a possible misunderstanding as to its viability when it comes to selling TenTen in the US?

He still may not have a clue, or have been told it won't sell unless it's censored and forced into approving it. There are simply far too many unknown factors, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Not likely considering what I was told: "We have to make sure not to upset the manga-ka. They are very sensetive people, you see."

Kodansha make comparison pictures with the edited page and the original version on a sheet, as they get them from the foreign publisher. One sheet for every manga page, with the changes pointed out with red marker. Then they show these to the author, who approves or disapproves of the changes. First then can the foreign edition be published.

Kodansha is the agent for the manga-ka, not his boss, and can't approve these sort of things without the authors permission. Same with foreign language edition contracts. The author is free to say no to for example an english version, but seldom does (they usually get very happy I was told).

As for 2, this is how I understood it: Taiwan, China and Korea etc censor a lot in the licensed Japanese comics (I was shown a huge bunch of examples: SFX replacement, mosaik, zooming in on panels, everything you can imagine) so I think most Japanese manga-ka are used to it. After all, the first foreign editions to be published are generally in other Asian countries, I was informed.

But there are of course authors that don't approve of censorship or redrawn art. For example, I was told that if someone tried to mosaik a CLAMP manga, Kodansha wouldn't even bother showing it to CLAMP, since they know there's no way in hell it will be approved of, but just give a NG and wait for the next suggestion.

As a summary, their policies are not to upset the manga-ka, and the manga-ka has the last say in these matters.

Sad but true. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[bakedleech]

I heard a dirty, dirty rumor that the whole reason TT is edited and the reason for CMX's strange and incongruous silence on the issue is that it had to be that way for them to license it, and part of the licensing restriction was that they couldn't talk about it. Source: poster on megatokyo forums.

Now I don't know if that's true, but it's something I had been privately suspecting for a long time. With the exception of CMX, nobody but Viz gets Kodansha titles, right? Other than CMX, what company censors their titles (Viz)? What company would be dumb enough to sign such a bad contract other than a total newbie to the manga business? And why wouldn't CMX defend their decision even once? We know licensing restrictions can border on ludicrous. Plus this may leave the door open for Viz to come in and save the day by releasing an unedited version, making them the hero of TT fans everywhere.

Once again, no proof. But it makes a lot of sense to me.

//edited for clarity

[Aiia]

[ QUOTE ]
bakedleech said:
I heard a dirty, dirty rumor that the whole reason TT is edited and the reason for CMX's strange and incongruous silence on the issue is that it had to be that way for them to license it, and part of the licensing restriction was that they couldn't talk about it. Source: poster on megatokyo forums.
(shortened)


[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting conspiracy theory, but unbelievable. If you want, I can ask them again for more details. But you know, I asked the source, and they were aware that TenTen is edited (and why would they even lie to a non-US manga company representative?). I consider them more believable than a rumor from an internet forum. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

Del Rey, Tokyo Pop, CMX etc have licensed Kodansha manga.

[GodaiStudios]

[ QUOTE ]
Aiia said:
[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
Might that not depend on 1) the contract (in case it's an agent for Ohgure) and 2) even if that's the case, a possible misunderstanding as to its viability when it comes to selling TenTen in the US?

He still may not have a clue, or have been told it won't sell unless it's censored and forced into approving it. There are simply far too many unknown factors, don't you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

1. Not likely considering what I was told: "We have to make sure not to upset the manga-ka. They are very sensetive people, you see."

Kodansha make comparison pictures with the edited page and the original version on a sheet, as they get them from the foreign publisher. One sheet for every manga page, with the changes pointed out with red marker. Then they show these to the author, who approves or disapproves of the changes. First then can the foreign edition be published.

Kodansha is the agent for the manga-ka, not his boss, and can't approve these sort of things without the authors permission. Same with foreign language edition contracts. The author is free to say no to for example an english version, but seldom does (they usually get very happy I was told).

As for 2, this is how I understood it: Taiwan, China and Korea etc censor a lot in the licensed Japanese comics (I was shown a huge bunch of examples: SFX replacement, mosaik, zooming in on panels, everything you can imagine) so I think most Japanese manga-ka are used to it. After all, the first foreign editions to be published are generally in other Asian countries, I was informed.

But there are of course authors that don't approve of censorship or redrawn art. For example, I was told that if someone tried to mosaik a CLAMP manga, Kodansha wouldn't even bother showing it to CLAMP, since they know there's no way in hell it will be approved of, but just give a NG and wait for the next suggestion.

As a summary, their policies are not to upset the manga-ka, and the manga-ka has the last say in these matters.

Sad but true. /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

What I mean about #2 is that CMX may have had in mind all along to censor it and said it wouldn't sell unless it was censored. I suspect they had already contracted the license agreement, but wouldn't allow it to be sold (thus royalties and residuals wouldn't be paid to Kodansha and/or Ohgure) unless it was censored. I honestly believe that CMX put a spin on it that it wouldn't sell if it wasn't censored. In other words, (to clarify my position, perhaps misunderstood is not the best word to use) CMX presented the concept to Kodansha/Ohgure that TenTen wouldn't be able to sell unless it was censored? And as a result, Ohgure may now have this misguided concept that the U.S. won't buy his titles unless censorship is applied? And that somehow censorship is a perfectly acceptable practice when it comes to titles being sold in the US?

Just food for thought. I simply meant that requiring censorship may lead to a misunderstanding about how we, as fans, feel about his work, and what is required for his work to sell here. He may have been led to believe that censoring his work is just what has to be done in order to sell his work here, which is the position of a company, not his fans.

[witega]

[ QUOTE ]
bakedleech said:
With the exception of CMX, nobody but Viz gets Kodansha titles, right? Other than CMX, what company censors their titles (Viz)? What company would be dumb enough to sign such a bad contract other than a total newbie to the manga business?

[/ QUOTE ]

You seem to be confusing Kodanasha with Shueisha and Shogakukan the two companies that own Viz. Viz has no special relationship with Kodansha--it's Del Rey which has a contract giving them first shot at licensing any Kodansha title, and then if they pass Kodansha can offer the license to anyone - and Dark Horse, Viz, Tokyopop and others all have Kodansha licenses. Which kind of sinks the conspiracy theory, since all your prepatory statements above are wrong (Dark Horse and Tokyopop also have censored titles, and Del Rey originally planned to censor the Kodansha title Negima before responding to fan response; DC may be new to manga but they and their parent company have plenty of experience and legal know-how on international licensing agreements).

As for what Aiia reported, while it's interesting to know Kodansha's actual business practice, this should not be a surprise to anyone. As was discussed both when the TenTen controversy first broke and in earlier editing discussions, Japaneese manga-ka own the copyright to their work (with, presumably, some exceptions for manga that are adaptations from other media). No one, starting with the Japanese publisher, can make changes to the work without the authorization of the manga-ka. Every edit in every English language manga has been approved by the manga-ka (though we don't necessarily know if the manga-ka went over the alterations with a microscope or just waved his hand, 'eh, they are paying me a lot of money, whatever's fine'.)

The issue, for those of us who don't buy edited product, is the context in which manga-ka are giving their approval. For years, American publishers went to Japanese authors and said, "We want to publish your work, but we can't sell it in America unless you let us a flip the artwork." And a lot of manga-ka went, "Okay, well if you say so." Until Tokyopop proved that model was wrong. Today, some companies are still going to the manga-ka and saying, "We want to publish your work, but we can't sell it in America unless you let us alter this or that." The manga-ka don't have any basis to dispute the American experts (indeed as Aiia pointed out, most of them's first experience with licensing is other Asian countries where the edits are often required by law) and so they agree to it.

Remember, the planned Negima edits were discovered after Akamatsu had approved the changes and then posted on his blog his bemusement about American standards--but then Del Rey reversed themselves and Negima seems to be selling quite well. In other words, while the manga-ka are approving the edits, based on what the American publisher is telling them is best, the *decision* to edit is still coming from the American publisher who thinks they can sell it better with the edits than without.

[Kiril]

And thus, the time came to bring this thread to an end.

I am not going to start an all-encompassing "Fight 11" continuation thread. I think at this point, since we now have a forum dedicated to this kind of thing, Tenjho Tenge can just get volume specific threads if people want to talk about how the series is being handled as new volumes come out, etc. In other words, we'll treat it like all other series in this forum.

I'd like to thank the Academy ...wait, wrong speech ... I'd like to thank all the posters who kept these threads on topic and as tempered as they could, given that many people were and continue to be passionate on this issue.

Finally, I'll once again link to the Digital Sin's clearinghouse site on this:
http://www.digitalsin.bebopboard.net/tenten/