Censorship across the board

[Inkthinker]

It looks as though I'll be hosting a lecture/discussion on the topic of censorship at Tampa's Anime MetroCon in about two weeks (June 24-26). In order to prep up on this, can you guys give me suggestions for books which have been aggregiously censored/rewritten (aside from TenTen, which I am all too familiar with) and what reasons there are for and against the subject?

A couple I have in mind: Early volumes of Dragonball were edited so that Goku's little toddler winky was obscured, even though there was no sexual connotation to the imagery whatsoever. Ironically enough, Crayon Shinchan is a series with a lot of adult humour, and an even younger child often running around mother-naked, yet it was not edited (unless I'm mistaken?) in the same way.

My position is that artwork should never be censored for content... if the content is deemed inappropriate to a certain audience, then that audience should avoid the content or have the content placed away from their environment. There's no reason or excuse for a work to be changed and rewritten to satisfy the fears, concerns, morals or views of a publisher or distributor.

Feel free to counter-point that idea, though, because I want to examine the topic from multiple angles.

[guyverfanboy]

In Guyver vol. 5 Mizuki had panties and a bra drawn in where there was none...

[fantasydewdrop]

In Descendents of Darkness vol 4, ViZ a person removed entierly from a blow-job shot that did not show any genetalia in the first place. A shame, since most of the people that buy DoD WANT the male/male love/sex content. Also ironic since it comes after a volume that depicted a racey rape scene where an adult raped a minor!

Isn't there a thread in the Manga recommendations that lists edited books?

I agree that material intended for adults shouldn't be censored. Some of the titles being censored have an overall essence that is FAR too adult for them to have art altered just so it can be sold to kids. Books are something we pay for, and people should be responsible for what they buy. If a person doesn't want something too racey for their tastes, then they should buy something else.
With TV and with the anthology-style publications, I can understand the censorship moreso due to the differences in those mediums. Any kid can freely wander around TV with a remote, so consideration for that should be worked into what time slots certain shows get. As far as the anthologies go, they're very cheap and by buying one, they wind up getting exposed to stories they might not otherwise have gotten in the first place, so it's understandable to tone down some content, though the content really ought to be restored in the GN since a person goes out of their way to pay more for the GN. Offering uncut GNs for stories that were edited in magazine runs is great, because then the people who want the edited run can get the magazines, but the people who want it uncut can get the GNs.
So yeah, as long as an uncut run is easily avalible in the same language, I don't care if there is an edited run or not.

[akcoll99]

There's those famous "Stars" in the first volume of I's (which also has another scene where some nudity is edited)

[Kevinroc]

http://www.livejournal.com/community/manga_edits/

[Inkthinker]

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Kevinroc said:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/manga_edits/

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Nice! VERY useful, thanks!!

Can anyone point out more examples of censorship not related to nudity?

[fujishig]

This would seem to be a black and white issue, but I'll play devil's advocate.

While I agree that censorship of any kind should be avoided, there are times when I feel it is appropriate (though not always necessary), as long as it is done with the approval of the original artist/author.

for instance, I could understand the censorship in early Dragonball manga. It is a series that is enjoyed by adults, sure, but it's also, IMHO, meant for children. While Japanese society doesn't find issue with simply drawn children's privates, there is certainly a stigma in American society. So for it to reach it's intended audience in America, I can see the point. This is different, to me at least, from half-censoring something like TT, which was clearly meant for adults, both in the uncensored and censored configurations. Similar censorship was done on a tanuki in Shaman King, btw, and I'd argue that it's also a book aimed at kids that watched the Saturday Morning cartoon. Ditto for the pokemon edits of things like Misty's bikini, and that is a property that is clearly focused on young children. Now, for purists, they should perhaps have an unedited version...

I would also defend Studio Proteus/Dark Horse's position with Narutaru/Shadow Star, where they censored some of the sick and violent acts committed in later volumes (I understand more than this was censored, but I'm not talking about the shower scenes). If they did indeed license the series before the questionable content was first published in Japan, than they had no knowledge of it beforehand (and certainly early issues of Narutaru are not indicative of later issues). I doubt they could publish the scene without getting some uproar, so they did what they did. Now some may say, well, they should have just stopped publishing it altogether then, as soon as they found out, but that would anger many more fans, I would think.

Look at it this way. All hardcore adult manga is "censored" in Japan, because of the issue of displaying adult private parts without mosaics. This is censorship. But it is released this way because it could be published no other way in Japan. So should they just get rid of the genre altogether? No, they make minor edits to ensure that it's released, because there is a market out there. The intent is kept intact, the "artistic vision" is unchanged, and the "art" is able to be seen by others. Maybe it's unfortunate that the society we live in dictates what is "right" and what is "wrong", but that's a separate issue.

So while I find the censorship of one panel in Sword of the Dark Ones/Ragnarok to be unnecessary, I find something like the rewrites in "Battle Vixens" or "Battle Royale" to be much more deplorable, because although the art is not censored, the voice of the original creator is.

[pythos]

I think this was discussed in the forum a while back, but I can't find the thread.

In Kizuna Vol. 2 (pg. 181, I think), a very young Kai (innocently) kisses Masa on the lips....Be Beautiful obscured the US release by redrawing a bubble or 2 over it.

[Noodle]

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KasiTL said:

Isn't there a thread in the Manga recommendations that lists edited books?


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There was - and it was a great thread. (It's the thread that Kiril links in his signature!) Unfortunately it was recently lost when the auto-expire feature was re-enabled, which is why no one can find it with the search. However, we've asked if there's a way it could be brought back, so we'll see? Or we could always start another - I believe it had about 16 or 17 good examples of censored titles.

It was asked if there are edits that don't involve nudity -- there are some. The only examples I can think of rght now have basically been mentioned already -- violent acts in ShadowStar, the Descendents of Darkness edit (which didn't involve showing gentalia, so it was more of a situational context censor -- which was completely silly given the title...), also, the various edits in the Be Beautiful titles appear to be more contextual, like the little Kai-Masa kiss or the omake in Golden Cain which was incestuous.

Beyond stuff like that however, if you ask for examples that don't involve nudity, you might find yourself treading into the very unwieldy "rewritten dialogue" debate. A lot of people consider toned-down language (or conversely heavily adapted/changed/spiced-up dialogue) to be on near equal ground as messing with the art. We've had this discussion like a million times in this forum. /images/graemlins/relief1.gif

[RaeS]

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Inkthinker said:

Can anyone point out more examples of censorship not related to nudity?

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Well there are minor art edits of a swastika in GTO and The Devil Does Exist. And since Hikaru no Go is a pretty kid friendly title VIZ changed the dialogue to make a cigarette into a piece of chewing gum to fit the All Ages rating.

[JeffDM]

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Fujishig said:
This would seem to be a black and white issue, but I'll play devil's advocate.

While I agree that censorship of any kind should be avoided, there are times when I feel it is appropriate (though not always necessary), as long as it is done with the approval of the original artist/author.

[/ QUOTE ]

A problem is, the original artist and author often doesn't care. They also seem to be easily mislead by the licencing company on the necessity of the changes. They may be pressured to allow changes as a condition of licence, and the licencee could turn around and say that the artist endorsed the change. While the artist may have access to the perspective of the licensing company, said artist probably doesn't have equal access to the perspective of the fans that would otherwise want to buy the licenced manga.

If it sounds like I don't inherently trust companies, then it's true. I think all the manga companies now are guilty of unnecessary censorship in exchange for a quick buck, or because someone thought something was too interesting, or not interesting enough. Several manga companies have claimed that their manga is authentic and true to the original, despite later making unnecessary changes.

The issue I see is that there is no clear stopping point, being wildly subjective, with IMO lame excuses for the decisions made, and also inconsistent application. See I"s 1 and the latest volume of VGAi, both 16+/older teen titles, both Viz, same original artist, one has censored nipples, the other not.

I do understand Naru Taru, but the change was done because of Toren's fear of being prosecuted under a law that is now nullified. Whether is hear was justified, I don't know. I suppose that if the German licencee foresaw trouble, then there might be.

[Kiril]

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Noodle said:
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KasiTL said:

Isn't there a thread in the Manga recommendations that lists edited books?


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There was - and it was a great thread. (It's the thread that Kiril links in his signature!) Unfortunately it was recently lost when the auto-expire feature was re-enabled, which is why no one can find it with the search. However, we've asked if there's a way it could be brought back, so we'll see? Or we could always start another - I believe it had about 16 or 17 good examples of censored titles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've now removed that link from my sig until such time as it can be restored, if that's even possible, which it may not be. Meanwhile, I recommend Osaka's Manga Edits blog:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/manga_edits/

[Vertical_Ed]

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Kiril said:
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Noodle said:
[ QUOTE ]
KasiTL said:

Isn't there a thread in the Manga recommendations that lists edited books?


[/ QUOTE ]

There was - and it was a great thread. (It's the thread that Kiril links in his signature!) Unfortunately it was recently lost when the auto-expire feature was re-enabled, which is why no one can find it with the search. However, we've asked if there's a way it could be brought back, so we'll see? Or we could always start another - I believe it had about 16 or 17 good examples of censored titles.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've now removed that link from my sig until such time as it can be restored, if that's even possible, which it may not be. Meanwhile, I recommend Osaka's Manga Edits blog:
http://www.livejournal.com/community/manga_edits/

[/ QUOTE ]

Feel free to send me a PM to add content to that page, as I do not own every single volume of manga in English. (...yet.) So if you find something to add send me a word and I'll add it there.

[ragnar]

Vol.3 of Geobreeders(and there might have been other volumes as well) was edited to remove nudity. And I thought that Lemnear, Maxion, and Chirality were also edited for nudity by CPM.

[remo]

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Inkthinker said:
A couple I have in mind: Early volumes of Dragonball were edited so that Goku's little toddler winky was obscured, even though there was no sexual connotation to the imagery whatsoever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would generally agree that censorship is something to be avoided; but as someone else said, there are varying degrees and mitigating circumstances. There's a difference between censoring ideas and imagery to keep them from the public at large, and making minor edits in the localization of a children's comic book to make it more suitable for the intended age range.

Dragonball is clearly aimed at a younger audience, but there are differences between US and Japanese sensitivities when it comes to what a child in that age range should see. A black and white solution such as you propose wouldn't really work in this case, as you'd be witholding the book from its target audience.

[JeffDM]

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ragnar said:
Vol.3 of Geobreeders(and there might have been other volumes as well) was edited to remove nudity. And I thought that Lemnear, Maxion, and Chirality were also edited for nudity by CPM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Volume 2 was censored as well. CPM didn't learn their lesson this time around, many of the changes remained intact. The second edition of volume 2 had some fixes but not all.

[Dicrel Seijin]

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ragnar said:
And I thought that Lemnear, Maxion, and Chirality were also edited for nudity by CPM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I have the whole runs of Lemnear and Chirality in the comic book form and I must say that if the titles were edited I could not tell.

Lemnear had bare breasts with intact nipples (some rather close up too. /images/graemlins/shy10000.gif

Chirality had bare breasts and buttocks from the beginning and in some issues the two female leads were nude for the whole time. /images/graemlins/noseblee.gif Over half of the covers have the two female leads in nothing but each others' arms and occasionally... wings. I will grant you there was no female genitalia, but there was camel toe through sheer material. /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif And let me not forget to mention that one of the main villains forced a secondary female lead to orgasm continuously as he dangled her nude in front of the heroes and taunted and revealed some of his evil master plan to them.

If these two titles were edited, please tell me what they found objectionable.

[NickFalzarano]

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Kousaka Makoto said:
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ragnar said:
And I thought that Lemnear, Maxion, and Chirality were also edited for nudity by CPM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? I have the whole runs of Lemnear and Chirality in the comic book form and I must say that if the titles were edited I could not tell.

Lemnear had bare breasts with intact nipples (some rather close up too. /images/graemlins/shy10000.gif

Chirality had bare breasts and buttocks from the beginning and in some issues the two female leads were nude for the whole time. /images/graemlins/noseblee.gif Over half of the covers have the two female leads in nothing but each others' arms and occasionally... wings. I will grant you there was no female genitalia, but there was camel toe through sheer material. /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif And let me not forget to mention that one of the main villains forced a secondary female lead to orgasm continuously as he dangled her nude in front of the heroes and taunted and revealed some of his evil master plan to them.

If these two titles were edited, please tell me what they found objectionable.

[/ QUOTE ]


I asked about that, and heard numerous times from reps that Chirality, at least, was not edited.

The dialouge says that the characters in Maxion are in college, when they're clearly teens in high school. Perhaps that's what is being refered to as edits from that title?

[Inkthinker]

Thanks for the references, everyone. If you attend the Tampa Anime MetroCon, this panel is scheduled for (I believe) Sunday at 3PM. I'm still trying to figure out exactly how I'm going to work this out, given that I have no proper confirmation from other guests... it may just end up as a panel of one, and that's not going to be much fun for anyone.

[Vertical_Ed]

[ QUOTE ]
ragnar said:
Vol.3 of Geobreeders(and there might have been other volumes as well) was edited to remove nudity. And I thought that Lemnear, Maxion, and Chirality were also edited for nudity by CPM.

[/ QUOTE ]

Howdy I am wondering if anyone who has copies of edited material if you can please scan the image so we can save it for future reference.

I would highly appreciate it.

[Inkthinker]

My panel is this Sunday at 1PM at the Tampa Anime MetroCon... hopefully I'll have former Ironcat publisher Steve Bennet as well as artist and voice actor Doug Smith as well as myself (animator Ben McSweeney), and we'll have a good discussion and Q&A. At worst it'll be just me, and people can come and point and laugh.

:D

Thanks for all the help... between this thread and the one I started at CBR I've gotten some good points and some idea of what to expect from both sides of the argument. I still have a couple days to go and I think I'll have achance or two to check back here before then, so if anyone wants to impart a last bit of wisdom, feel free.

Wish me luck! :D

[hobie]

Oh yeah, I'm assuming you stopped in the thread and got the comparisons I made for Yo-u/By the Sword #2 to add to your pile.

[Vertical_Ed]

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Hobie-wan said:
Oh yeah, I'm assuming you stopped in the thread and got the comparisons I made for Yo-u/By the Sword #2 to add to your pile.

[/ QUOTE ]

Got it. I posted it last week.

thanks! /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif