US Manga Publishers Repeating Mistakes of US Comic Book Publishers? [Archive]

Dicrel Seijin

07-07-2005, 04:35 AM

Perhaps it is just my perception of things and I would like to use the forum participants as a sounding board. Feel free to agree or tell me I'm completely off the mark.

First off, one of the reasons that I for the most part abandoned the U.S. comic book market was mindset that all the comic book publishers seem to have, and that is, comic books are for kids, late teens at the outside.

It was frustrating to see the characters I grew up with not actually grow up. The status quo it seemed was strictly enforced. What need for intelligent storylines and character development that would appeal to a young adult, the characters had to be kept the way they are or dumbed down, so that they could continue to appeal to the kiddies, to the lowest common denominator.(What is puzzling is that the average comic book buyer, last time I checked, was a twenty-something or older male.)

When I discovered manga in college (Ranma 1/2), first off I was shocked to see what I was seeing, but with the help of those more knowledgeable, I quickly discovered manga to be everything that comics were not.

The characters grew and changed, sometimes for the better, sometimes not, but the fact they changed was important. The manga did not last forever (though some seemed to) and had an endpoint. And most importantly, my intelligence was challenged. There were titles aimed for my demographic. I was happy, it was my golden age.

(For those that are still reading, thank you, I'm almost done.) But in the last year, it seems more and more U.S. manga publishers are echoing (what in my eyes is a mistake) the mindset of the U.S. comic publishers in that they are going for the lowest common denominator and are trying to shoehorn titles targeting young adults and adults into the inappropriate (though admittedly much larger) young teens bracket.

Now I realize there are a host of other factors that differentiate the manga market from the comic market (the inclusion of manga into bookstores is a big factor) so it is not an exact parallel.

But do you think that chasing after the young teen market, to the exclusion of the young adults and adults markets as the comic book industry did, is detrimental to the continued growth of the manga industry?

Are their editorial policies beneficial to the industry as a whole?

Would it not make sense to continue to appeal to the aging demographics by offering more adult (not prurient) fare when they outgrow the kids' stuff?

I realize that this is what occurs in Japan, but I cannot believe that the U.S. publishers would look at it and say, no, we will follow our own failing comic book market model. Damn the success and millions in circulation, we want to keep it a niche market. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

*steps off soapbox*

Inkthinker

07-07-2005, 05:06 AM

I think that as publishers grow larger, they tend to place people in control of marketing, acquisition and distribution who are not familiar with the particulars of manga and how they differ from the traditional stereotype of the comics audience. In a sad way they get what I wish some manga fans would get, which is that all comics are comics... their error is in misunderstanding the demographic range that "comics" are capable of appealing to.

I've come to the conclusion (after reading some recent articles about internal marketing shakeups at DC and their parent Time-Warner) that this is probably the culprit behind the TJTG Affair and other recent incidents regarding the mismarketing of manga.

quenelf

07-07-2005, 09:59 AM

US comics actually came in two different ghettos: the ever-decreasing 'kid' ghetto and the 'supposedly mature' ghetto where you could make any comic you like as long as it was misogynistic, extremely violent, and included more black ink than the average squid.

This latter genre did not always make it into mainstream bookshops.

I don't think manga has got anywhere near as bad as that yet and there's a fair range of manga being released. Apart from the one obvious title, which others have been intentionally changed to aim at a lower age range? I think you might be trying to generalise from one incident.

--quen

ragnar

07-07-2005, 10:11 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Inkthinker said:
I think that as publishers grow larger, they tend to place people in control of marketing, acquisition and distribution who are not familiar with the particulars of manga and how they differ from the traditional stereotype of the comics audience. In a sad way they get what I wish some manga fans would get, which is that all comics are comics... their error is in misunderstanding the demographic range that "comics" are capable of appealing to.

I've come to the conclusion (after reading some recent articles about internal marketing shakeups at DC and their parent Time-Warner) that this is probably the culprit behind the TJTG Affair and other recent incidents regarding the mismarketing of manga.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would agree with most of this. DC/CMX seems to be having this problem. Especially in light of the fact that Alan Moore and his publishing company, America's Best Comics, has severed ties with Wildstorm/DC/Time-Warner and moving to Top Cow. It seems suits just can't leave things alone.

However, companies like Viz and ADV, who have been in the anime/manga market for many years, should not have these problems. Look at them. Viz is turning into the censorship king of manga, with ADV and CPM coming up strong on the outside. Using spurious reasons to justify this censorship does nothing to endear them to their customers. Yet other companies, like the MediaBlasters titles, DMP, Infinity, DR Master, are seeing no reason to edit their titles, many of which are just as violent, racy, or sexually laden as the Viz/ADV/CPM titles that are being edited, if not more so.

It really becomes a matter of simplicity which has been stated on this and other forums before: If you think you have to edit a title, don't license it. Adjust the rating and shrink wrap it. Grow some cohones. Your market isn't just 10-13 year old males that buy Shonen Jump and watch YGO, One Piece, and Zatch Bell on TV. It also consists of old geezers like myself, all 48 years of me, who reads Remote, Here is Greenwood, Maison Ikkoku, adn Pilgrim Jager. College age friends who watch and read Gunslinger Girl and Stellvia. It consists of HS girls who read Mars, Blade of the Immortal, and Rurouni Kenshin.

So please, quit editing to lowest common denominator.

mangajunky

07-07-2005, 10:15 AM

I think the big mistakes that the American comic publishers made, especially in the early 90's wasn't so much targeting the wrong audience. (DC and Marvel have always catered to mature tastes with certain lines like Vertigo and MAX) it was pushing comics to be speculative properties. By creating multiple versions of covers and limited edition one-offs people bought like crazy and then realized later that so many people bought these so-called limited editions that they aren't worth anything.

Manga has many different companies catering to many different tastes. From CMX, Tokyopop, Del Rey, Darkhorse, Vertical and Media Blasters all have different approaches to Manga and comics.

The best way to show the industry what they should be doing is to buy what you like. If that means that certain genres fade into obscurity it's not a mistake...it's logic. A company can't run if it doesn't make money.

-Franky

Shinji2015

07-07-2005, 11:09 AM

[ QUOTE ]
mangajunky said:
I think the big mistakes that the American comic publishers made, especially in the early 90's wasn't so much targeting the wrong audience. (DC and Marvel have always catered to mature tastes with certain lines like Vertigo and MAX) it was pushing comics to be speculative properties. By creating multiple versions of covers and limited edition one-offs people bought like crazy and then realized later that so many people bought these so-called limited editions that they aren't worth anything.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly. Also, I would add that by moving away from a younger audience, the American comic market has lost a potential source of growth; without new, younger readers coming in, the reader base has continued to shrink further and further as older, dissatisfied readers lose interest and move away (Just as an example: Spawn #1 sold around a million copies in '92/'93, but nowadays, Marvel and DC would be happy to see their titles sell 400,000). There's not any new blood coming in, and they're only shooting themselves in the foot by becoming even more adult fan-oriented.

[ QUOTE ]
The best way to show the industry what they should be doing is to buy what you like. If that means that certain genres fade into obscurity it's not a mistake...it's logic. A company can't run if it doesn't make money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, also true. It's nice to have variety and all, but if it's not moving, you sooner or later have to cut back, no matter how much you may want to continue.

Noodle

07-07-2005, 11:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Kousaka Makoto said:

But do you think that chasing after the young teen market, to the exclusion of the young adults and adults markets as the comic book industry did, is detrimental to the continued growth of the manga industry?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it offers the potential to be detrimental to the growth in some senses, but frankly, I think my opinion here has a lot to do with my age, so I offer it hesitantly. However, I wouldn't agree that the manga companies are excluding older readers at all. There are plenty of titles out there being released by all the publishers that cater to an older crowd and suffer less from the whims of English adaptation.

[ QUOTE ]

Are their editorial policies beneficial to the industry as a whole?

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally don't believe so. Certain things over the years I have accepted as the market needed them, but as the industry surged forward, they became less necessary and in fact, outdated, so no, I don't want to support those kinds of decisions anymore. I want the market to grow and certain actions sometimes need to be taken to do so, however I do not wish to support those things that include taking several steps backward.

I would agree in part with quen as well, though, to say that perhaps you are looking largely at one incident and generalizing too early. VIZ's actions with the Shonen Jump line (and a few select others) are moving in the same unappealing direction -- but they haven't gone completely over yet. I still have hope, and if not, well I still have some other publishers to love anyway.

Frankly speaking, I see VIZ as doing the same thing they did when they pioneered the market -- going full-speed ahead trying to put themselves back on top and to do so are tapping into the markets they need to accomplish this. However, thanks to the "manga boom" those markets are younger and not so niche now, and to the unfortunate ends we are seeing here, they are taking backwards steps to accomplish their goals, reaching for this younger crowd rather than nurture the folks who have grown up with them since the start and now do not want watered down content.

However much of this has been said before, so this is where I will leave it, and I would like to finish by asking you all to keep the target of the manga industry in mind when replying here. American comics are not on topic here, though for the sake of discussion I'm open to leaving this going for now..provided this thread doesn't spiral completely away from manga.

Elric78

07-07-2005, 11:43 AM

This seems to occur in all forms of entertainment nowadays. As manga, anime, and video games become more popular among the general public, the big companies try to further expand their sales by diluting their product to the lowest common denominator to reach the 'average' consumer. While they do this, they ignore the hardcore fans who are mainly responsible for their previous success. It isn't fair, but that seems to be how business works. The best we can do is support those titles we feel excel and call out the big companies when they do go out of line, like unnecessary edits.

Jarred

07-07-2005, 12:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Noodle said:
[ QUOTE ]
Kousaka Makoto said:

But do you think that chasing after the young teen market, to the exclusion of the young adults and adults markets as the comic book industry did, is detrimental to the continued growth of the manga industry?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it offers the potential to be detrimental to the growth in some senses, but frankly, I think my opinion here has a lot to do with my age, so I offer it hesitantly. However, I wouldn't agree that the manga companies are excluding older readers at all. There are plenty of titles out there being released by all the publishers that cater to an older crowd and suffer less from the whims of English adaptation.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was going to type the same thing, but you beat me to it. I look at my shelf of current titles and I see Vagabond, Priest, Berserk, Flowers & Bees, Tough, Dead End, Tramps Like Us, Pilgrim Jager, and many other titles that are definitely marketed for the older crowd. I don't see this exclusion of the adult market at all. However, I do see companies using a couple titles to chase the younger market. But I don't think these isolated incidents are representative of the entire market. I also don't see that changing. Monster, 20th Century Boys, Eden, and other mature titles will be coming soon.

Noodle

07-07-2005, 12:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
jarhead said:
I was going to type the same thing, but you beat me to it. I look at my shelf of current titles and I see Vagabond, Priest, Berserk, Flowers & Bees, Tough, Dead End, Tramps Like Us, Pilgrim Jager, and many other titles that are definitely marketed for the older crowd. I don't see this exclusion of the adult market at all. However, I do see companies using a couple titles to chase the younger market. But I don't think these isolated incidents are representative of the entire market. I also don't see that changing. Monster, 20th Century Boys, Eden, and other mature titles will be coming soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Part of the problem - and it's the big, vocal problem - is that the titles they are using to chase the younger crowd are, naturally, the ones we all want to see -- even us old fogies. So it makes us bitter, after following the manga industry through its infancy to finally get access to loads of fun, current, best-seller titles (think One-Piece, Naruto, etc) only to find them watered-down or censored, or otherwise adapted in a less than appealing way.

Something I have a hard time with personally is wanting to really care about that stuff, and wanting to find Zen in my hobby. Part of me knows these titles are aimed toward younger readers anyway, so I console myself in adult-themed manga, but in the end it usually still upsets me. So I can't comfortably offer solutions to others who feel similarly, because I don't always win the war with myself over it.

Jake_Forbes

07-07-2005, 01:02 PM

I wanted to throw a few discussion points into this thread, as I think these points are frequently overlooked on these boards:

1) Anthologies like Jump, Magazine, Ace, Hana to Yume and other popular sources of manga are aimed at young teens in Japan.

2) The material in question is usually being marketed to the same age group as it was in Japan, or an older one.

3) Even in Japan, politicians, watchdog groups and publishers are uncomfortable with the "sexing up" of manga content in younger and younger magazines.

Rising censorship is a problem, but it's more complex than publisher's trying to sell stuff to inappropriate age groups.

To answer the original question, I would suggest that Japanese publishers over-indulging doujinshi and otaku culture is a better parellel to the rise of geek creators in comics, and the effects are quite similar (only in Japan, is underage sexuality that's on the rise, not murder and psychoses).

-Jake

Edit: Just to clarify, this is purely in response to the question in the thread's title, not a justification for censorship.

BlazinTy

07-07-2005, 01:24 PM

Honestly if a company is not comfortable bringing out a title uncensored then they really shouldnt have licenesed it in the first place. All this other crap they say is just double speak. Like "we try to stay as true to the creators vision as possible." Well you know what the truest possible would be to leave the work alone and let it stand on its own merits.

With the rising # of titles being censored it sees we are going back in tie instead of forward. If companies are worried about lawsuits then really they should have disclaiemers all over the book and wrap it in shrinkwrap. Really its the parents responsobility to police what there kids watch and read. Hell if kids were to go on a field to say a museum do you think parents would sue if there kid saw a statue of David. No I dont think so or else we would be seeing big black censored bars over many paintings and statues. Manga is an artform its not pornography so how can it be held to the same standards as say buying playboy.

Its not like manga is network tv and anyone can just watch it. Someone has to pay to read manga just like if you had payed to see HBO or Showtime.

Jarred

07-07-2005, 01:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Noodle said:
Part of the problem - and it's the big, vocal problem - is that the titles they are using to chase the younger crowd are, naturally, the ones we all want to see -- even us old fogies. So it makes us bitter, after following the manga industry through its infancy to finally get access to loads of fun, current, best-seller titles (think One-Piece, Naruto, etc) only to find them watered-down or censored, or otherwise adapted in a less than appealing way.

Something I have a hard time with personally is wanting to really care about that stuff, and wanting to find Zen in my hobby. Part of me knows these titles are aimed toward younger readers anyway, so I console myself in adult-themed manga, but in the end it usually still upsets me. So I can't comfortably offer solutions to others who feel similarly, because I don't always with the war with myself over it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely agree and I feel the same way you do. I'd love to see everything handled masterfully, but yet at the same time I can understand SOME of the things they do, even if I don't agree with it. But in the end, the amount of censored manga is an EXTREMELY small percentage of the overall releases in any given month, so I don't see this as a market shift or anything. I think it just feels that way because more and more titles are being released.

jennwenn

07-07-2005, 03:09 PM

I think the US manga industry is complicated by the fact that 20-somethings and mature readers WANT to read material meant for 13-year-olds, ie. the majority of shoujo and shonen titles. Part of this is the strength of a title's sometimes age-defying appeal, but 18+ readers were just not the main audience in mind for Naruto, One Piece, Nana, Hikaru no Go, and the like. I don't blame publishers for trying to preserve the younger end of the age spectrum for these titles as well...(Though I don't support all examples of censorship!)

EDIT - Which is similar to what previous posters said.

Anyway, I don't feel left out or in lack of non-edited manga reading material. I still have too much good stuff to read IMOP. I'm looking forward to several mature titles. I still think the manga industry is very diverse, though it is the young teen titles that seem to get all the publicity and sales...

BlazinTy

07-07-2005, 03:40 PM

[ QUOTE ]
jennwenn said:
I think the US manga industry is complicated by the fact that 20-somethings and mature readers WANT to read material meant for 13-year-olds, ie. the majority of shoujo and shonen titles. Part of this is the strength of a title's sometimes age-defying appeal, but 18+ readers were just not the main audience in mind for Naruto, One Piece, Nana, Hikaru no Go, and the like.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually Nana ran in cookie magazine and I dont think that is magazine for young teens. I thought it was a manga that was suppose to appeal to the 20 something generation. Considering the first chapter is about a high school girl having an affair with a married man I think the edit is unecessary and if its in the GNs I will be buying the jap tanks and cut out the crappy middleman who screwed up the mangakas beautiful art work.

Jake_Forbes

07-07-2005, 03:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
BlazinTy said:
Actually Nana ran in cookie magazine and I dont think that is magazine for young teens. I thought it was a manga that was suppose to appeal to the 20 something generation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Cookie is technically older shojo, for the middle school/high school demographic, like Best Friend or Hana to Yume. Nana is published under the "Ribon Mascot" imprint, which is definitely not aimed at the 20+ crowd. That said, Nana is a phenomenon that has been crossing age and gender boundaries like few shojo before. Magazine demos in Japan seem to mean a lot less these days, even less so when the books are brought stateside.

07-07-2005, 03:56 PM

fujishig

07-07-2005, 03:56 PM

Like many, I disagree that the problem American comics had was an inability to "grow up" as it were, though I do think it's natural for a lot (not all) of kids to "grow out" of comics at some point in life. But lets focus on the manga.

I also agree with a lot of the posters here who find the manga scene incredibly diverse, with a lot of titles that appeal to older readers.

Let's take a look at some of the titles that have been censored or had dialogue changed:

TT, Ikkitousen: While the content is definitely for older readers, what we have here is basically Street-Fighter-like characters and a lot of fan service and beyond. This is not exactly the sophisticated, Vertigo-like stuff that only older readers will enjoy, but more of a guilty pleasure. Not that TT doesn't have some complexity, but it's not Planetes (or insert whatever complex manga you want).

Ii's: a basic plot with fan service. Again, not overly sophisticated, and definitely the type of storyline that teenagers would want to follow. Though I'm as confused as anyone why they treat this and Video Girl Ai differently.

Shaman King, Naruto, One Piece: argue all you want, but these are kids comics, they appeal to kids in both countries, and I have no problem marketing it to kids here with slight censorship to account for differences in culture.

Texhnolyze

07-07-2005, 04:54 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fujishig said:
Shaman King, Naruto, One Piece: argue all you want, but these are kids comics, they appeal to kids in both countries, and I have no problem marketing it to kids here with slight censorship to account for differences in culture.

[/ QUOTE ]

They also appeal to older teens in both countries. People always try to brush off SJ as something only 12 year olds read, but even in Japan they have reader age survey polls and there's quite a bit older teens reading the stuff.

07-07-2005, 05:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fujishig said:
Shaman King, Naruto, One Piece: argue all you want, but these are kids comics, they appeal to kids in both countries, and I have no problem marketing it to kids here with slight censorship to account for differences in culture.

[/ QUOTE ]

They also appeal to older teens in both countries. People always try to brush off SJ as something only 12 year olds read, but even in Japan they have reader age survey polls and there's quite a bit older teens reading the stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's not saying they don't appeal to older teens. Of course they do. But they are clearly written to appeal to kids. So is it worth limiting the demographics of these manga to 18+ only, and not market them to kids, to avoid litigations and censorship?

Texhnolyze

07-07-2005, 05:21 PM

No, I'm not saying they should be 18+, but maybe they could have had a proper age limit for certain titles, like Hikaru no Go could have had the same age rating as Yu Yu Hakusho where they show teenagers smoking cigarettes. I mean, they both run in the same magazine.

07-07-2005, 07:12 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
No, I'm not saying they should be 18+, but maybe they could have had a proper age limit for certain titles, like Hikaru no Go could have had the same age rating as Yu Yu Hakusho where they show teenagers smoking cigarettes. I mean, they both run in the same magazine.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well, the problem is that there appears to be no consistency with what each age rating allows. So far, only the 18+ rating is safe from censorship. One title rated Older Teen has nipples. One title also rated Older Teen has censored nipples. Who can guarantee that rating Hikaru no Go as Older Teen rather than All will solve the underage smoking problem? The only safe assumption I can make is that anything rated less than 18+, i.e. anything marketed at children, is subject to censorship for fear of litigations.

akoftroy

07-07-2005, 07:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
fox said:
is subject to censorship for fear of litigations.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would be the cause of action? What would be the damages?

Viz is doing this more due to the threat of boycotts and the ability to sell the Jump line to huge chains like Walmart and Scholastics.

mandisaw

07-07-2005, 08:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
akoftroy said:
Viz is doing this more due to the threat of boycotts and the ability to sell the Jump line to huge chains like Walmart and Scholastics.

[/ QUOTE ]
Bingo. Basically the burgeoning manga industry is still susceptible to the vagaries of cultural politics within and across the U.S. (not to mention Canada). The more popular and widespread a title is, the greater a target it makes for people both well-meaning and malicious. When a licensing company makes a decision to go after the brass ring of 11-15 year old males, they open the series up to much greater scrutiny and potential rebuke. Nobody's complained AFAIK about the gratuitous nudity & violence in series like Hellsing or Sensual Phrase, because they're just not as heavily promoted as something like say, Fullmetal Alchemist.

Hmm, I'd say the manga industry is likely headed in a similar path as the book, music, and movie publishing industries. Most titles go relatively unmolested, but really popular stuff ends up getting a parallel or secondary release in some kind of bland, Walmart-friendly form. Right now, they probably just don't have the money or numbers to do something like that, but they approximate it ever so slightly with the whole anthology (edited) vs. graphic novel (unedited) differentiated release. (Anime-on-TV vs. anime-on-DVD would be a similar example, and again, it was only possible with the big money-makers.)

RaeS

07-07-2005, 08:28 PM

I don't think US manga publishers are repeating the mistakes of US comic book publishers. They're really so different I couldn't even go into it (besides being rather off topic). I don't like edits. However I do understand (still not support) them sometimes. Manga is exactly appealing because it has a large variety of genres and age demographics. On top of that its foreign. Obviously such characteristics can cause problems. While its the older age group that may be in it for the longer term, anything dies without attracting new interest. The manga industry needs kids. Does that mean censorship should get a pass? Not to me since they could have just found something better to fit the particular criteria. Cultural differences come into play again when the target audience doesn't match up. Its really too bad. Then you have the problem of shrink-wrapping and 18+. Contrary to belief 18+ doesn't necessarily protect you. Someone can still buy it (or a minor get a hold of it) get offended and start something. That's America and probably anywhere else too. But you grit your teeth and bear it as nonsensical as it is. (And bravo to the people with the guts to license and release 18+ titles.) The manga industry here has grown a lot. And it still has some growing up to do. Probably it never will be exactly like Japan in many ways. Censorship may wane next year and it may grow. Companies are exactly the same way.

akcoll99

07-08-2005, 10:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
ragnar said:
Especially in light of the fact that Alan Moore and his publishing company, America's Best Comics, has severed ties with Wildstorm/DC/Time-Warner and moving to Top Cow.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just to nitpick for a second, Moore is moving his comics to Top SHELF not Top Cow. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

My own thoughts about the two industries are pretty much this:

1. I agree with what Frankie said, in that the US comic industry did alot to shoot itself in the foot by adapting the "collector's" mentality that just took over in the early 90's. I remember buying comics that I didn't give a rat's-ass about just because they had some holo-crystal-3D-glow-in-the-dark-foil-trifold cover on them. Great for upfront sales, but not for building any sort of long term readership. One of my other major complaints tying into this has always been the US comic industry's inability to collect their comics into trade form. For years, only really popular titles and storylines were collected, but that was it. It's great if Spider-Man #1 is worth $25,000, but I'm out of luck if I just want to read the story and possibly get hooked on the title. Only recently, with manga's success, have we seen many of the big names such as Marvel and DC decide to start collecting more of their titles. That helps build a fanbase.

2. As for manga itself, it is something of a different beast, but as a 28-year old comic/manga reader, I do find myself increasingly frustrated by the way a few certain companies are handling their titles. I understand, to a certain point, the fear of litigation. That's just an unfortunate fact of life in America circa 2005. However, I'm sick of that fear taking over our culture, or more specifically, our manga field. Viz, in particular, seems to think that every soccer mom in America has a lawyer on speed dial ready to sue the hell out of them for one misplaced nipple. (*Shakes angry fist at Janet Jackson*). This creates an environment in which the more informed manga buyers don't like or trust a particular company, which only hurts long term readership growth. The sales and attention given to titles like Negima, Berserk, Battle Royale, and the Yaoi books proves that there is a sizable mature readership out there, just as American comics like Love & Rockets, Sandman, and Ghost World prove that comics "aren't just for kid's anymore."

So, I don't necessarily think that manga is making the same mistakes as American comics, but I think both industries could learn alot form each other. IMHO, if the manga industry wants to keep growing and maintain its success, it would be wise of them to keep targeting multiple demographics and stop doing things that undermine consumer confidence (Not to keep picking on Viz, but with a Viz editor at AX admitting their editing policies were inconsistant- that doesn't help that last one much). I see American comics beginning to fix alot of the problems that almost killed the industry ten years ago, but I am becoming a little anxious about where manga is going in this country.

And to note, I strongly believe Ten Ten was not quite the result of litigal worries, but corporate suits trying to maximize profit and not caring about what fans of the book might think...but that's just my opinion... /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

Dicrel Seijin

07-08-2005, 08:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
As for manga itself, it is something of a different beast, but as a 28-year old comic/manga reader, I do find myself increasingly frustrated by the way a few certain companies are handling their titles. (snip) This creates an environment in which the more informed manga buyers don't like or trust a particular company, which only hurts long term readership growth.

[/ QUOTE ]

To address quen and Noodle as well as the above--I began with VIZ (Ranma 1/2, Inu Yasha, X/1999, Eat-Man, and so on and so forth), which is why I was rather distressed when their editorial policies began not making sense. VIZ was my manga world for a number of years, which has contributed to my rather skewed perception and was the genesis for this question.... Anyhoo, this forced me to go out and look at other titles, which is a good thing, but to be forced from a title because you don't happen to be the right age....

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
(Not to keep picking on Viz, but with a Viz editor at AX admitting their editing policies were inconsistant).

[/ QUOTE ]

There was a time when the majority of my manga titles were VIZ, with Dark Horse a close second (Tokyopop was still Mixx back then). Now that is no longer the case. I will grant you that my tastes have changed but there are still VIZ titles I would pick up if not for the irrational editorial decisions.

Then came CMX and their treatment of some of the titles in their stable. (Let's leave it at that shall we?)

I've gotten to the point where I have to wait and research before I will pick up a title, because I don't want to pick up something, enjoy it, and then find out it was edited. I can't explain it but I feel betrayed and that lingering feeling taints the rest of the title for me. I want to go back to a time when I could trust the publishers....

If the bottom line for all of these publishers is the lucre, then what begins to happen to the not-so-successful titles? Will market forces deem them unprofitable and therefore cut them?

Or what about the not-so-successful/ not-so-mainstream publishers? (I have never seen a DrMaster title for sale on a shelf in Hawaii, and there are few or no Broccoli or ComicOne titles. I have to special order most of them.) Do we end up with just the popular (and watered down for that golden demographic) titles?

Like many of you that responded, I enjoy titles not for my demographic, but still do not understand the practice of editing to make it fit the demographic. Why not just go up a rating category?

(I am reminded of Cinderella's sisters. One cut off her toes to fit in the shoe; the other her heel. Neither got the prince because, well, the blood was a dead giveaway, but also too, they were not who he was looking for. And if you have no idea what I'm talking about... well, that's censorship for you. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif)

Harafan

07-09-2005, 12:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
[(Not to keep picking on Viz, but with a Viz editor at AX admitting their editing policies were inconsistant- that doesn't help that last one much).

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really want it to be consistant? If it were, in this present political atmosphere, they'd be consistantly censoring. I don't want that! Given a choice between a Viz that censors everything and a Viz that's inconsistant, I choose inconsistancy every time!

GodaiStudios

07-11-2005, 12:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Harafan said:
[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
[(Not to keep picking on Viz, but with a Viz editor at AX admitting their editing policies were inconsistant- that doesn't help that last one much).

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you really want it to be consistant? If it were, in this present political atmosphere, they'd be consistantly censoring. I don't want that! Given a choice between a Viz that censors everything and a Viz that's inconsistant, I choose inconsistancy every time!

[/ QUOTE ]

Believe it or not, I'd prefer some consistency... Granted, I'd prefer the consistency to be in favor of not censoring things, but consistency would give me peace of mind in knowing what to expect from each title.

You know what really gets me about all this? Where are all the soccer mom's complaining about nipples? If this were immediately right after the Janet incident, I could understand this. It's been over a year and a half, and the last time I heard about the pissiness of the public was a little over a year ago. The soccer mom's have moved on, so why can't Viz? (and the others) They have other and bigger concers to deal with, like their opinions of Iraq, the economy, terrorism, and other general political issues. (and let's not forget reality TV while we are at it.)

The soccer moms don't have the manga industry in their scope anymore and could likely care less whether nipples show up there or not. If they were up in arms, they'd also be objecting to any other provacative artwork and/or sex scenes. Removing nipples won't do anything to lessen how "offensive" the material is. It won't stop the objectors.

What the industry fails to realize is that there really isn't a large group out there objecting. Our culture has become accustomed to nudity when it comes to some forms of entertainment and manga has already has already established itself as being more racy in nature. What our culture takes issue with? Stuff showing up in unexpected places, like a live sporting event.

Guess what folks? Censoring now will only give cause to parents to object in the future if/when it comes back. Leave it in there, and it stays as strong as before. Censoring anything now will only weaken any ground you may try to build on.

akcoll99

07-11-2005, 06:12 PM

akcoll99

07-11-2005, 06:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
You know what really gets me about all this? Where are all the soccer mom's complaining about nipples? If this were immediately right after the Janet incident, I could understand this. It's been over a year and a half, and the last time I heard about the pissiness of the public was a little over a year ago. The soccer mom's have moved on, so why can't Viz? (and the others) They have other and bigger concers to deal with, like their opinions of Iraq, the economy, terrorism, and other general political issues. (and let's not forget reality TV while we are at it.)

The soccer moms don't have the manga industry in their scope anymore and could likely care less whether nipples show up there or not. If they were up in arms, they'd also be objecting to any other provacative artwork and/or sex scenes. Removing nipples won't do anything to lessen how "offensive" the material is. It won't stop the objectors.

What the industry fails to realize is that there really isn't a large group out there objecting. Our culture has become accustomed to nudity when it comes to some forms of entertainment and manga has already has already established itself as being more racy in nature. What our culture takes issue with? Stuff showing up in unexpected places, like a live sporting event.

Guess what folks? Censoring now will only give cause to parents to object in the future if/when it comes back. Leave it in there, and it stays as strong as before. Censoring anything now will only weaken any ground you may try to build on.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you for asking the same thing I've been wondering. Where is the enemy that Viz/ADV/CMX are so afraid of? There have been people who get their feathers ruffled about comics dating back to the 30's and 40's, but there's never been anything to show me that this paranoia is worth the time it takes to edit the books, or the lost sales and hits to their reputation that these companies take. All of the incidents I can think of involving manga have all involved hardcore pornographic manga, and even then there were always extenuating circumstances. So, maybe someday the publishers willl realize that by editing out a nipple or whatever, they're only drawing more attention to it then it would have ever gotten before... /images/graemlins/anger100.gif

akcoll99

07-11-2005, 06:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
akoftroy said:
[ QUOTE ]
fox said:
is subject to censorship for fear of litigations.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would be the cause of action? What would be the damages?

Viz is doing this more due to the threat of boycotts and the ability to sell the Jump line to huge chains like Walmart and Scholastics.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, didn't Scholastic drop Shonen Jump after a teacher raised a stink about Yusuke's use of a cigarette in Yu Yu Hakusho? Maybe that has contributed to their editing policies...

Riese

09-10-2005, 03:40 AM

Sorry if this has been said before.

Mainstream US society doesn't have much of a clear clue of how to deal with teens and young adults. This is evident in the legal system. As soon as a teen does something wrong, they're an adult. If they stay out of trouble, they're kids.

Manga in the US is too saturated and if they're going to survive, then they've got to start catering to a more general audience. The mainstream seems to prefer safety and sterility above everything else if you look at how the rest of the media behaves, how people vote, etc.

One major mistake manga has avoided is excluding females. I really can't think of any comic books that really targetted females at the moment. Nothing jumps out; wheras with manga, I can easily say "shoujo manga" and point to a plethora of works. I don't know all of the titles but I know there is a massive quantity.

Yes, there are a number of universal appeals in good comics, but the packaging they came in(by packaging I mean art and other points of presentation) they were aimed at males.

It seems like US manga has 2 conflicting signals to juggle:
1-The people doing the buying are happier with more authentic manga. Flopping used to be standard practice, now it's rare.
2-Authentic and more specifically uncensored will diverge from the main stream(at least, what I'm seeing as mainstream.)

Just some thoughts.

Helschadenfreude

09-11-2005, 03:44 AM

[ QUOTE ]
akcoll99 said:
[ QUOTE ]
akoftroy said:
[ QUOTE ]
fox said:
is subject to censorship for fear of litigations.

[/ QUOTE ]

What would be the cause of action? What would be the damages?

Viz is doing this more due to the threat of boycotts and the ability to sell the Jump line to huge chains like Walmart and Scholastics.

[/ QUOTE ]

IIRC, didn't Scholastic drop Shonen Jump after a teacher raised a stink about Yusuke's use of a cigarette in Yu Yu Hakusho? Maybe that has contributed to their editing policies...

[/ QUOTE ]

Well he was a deliquent, and apparently today's modern youth is so easily swayed by cool Japanese cartoons.

Damn editing of HnG. I'm sooo sad that happened. Grr. I mean I'm glad they're trying to make it more child friendly.. but come on, bad characters= can smoke right? I mean they're bad characters /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

Btw.. to what the last poster said about more niche markets divulging from mainstream.Er, I think yaoi/shonen ai is doing pretty well. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif