Does Tokyopop edit their mangas? [Archive]

NickFalzarano

08-16-2005, 09:36 AM

[ QUOTE ]
kogalsin said:
I think the first volume of GTO had a swastika removed too. So their track record on censorship issues is very good. I was weaned on their manga when the boom just started so I like them quite a bit. I don't think you should have much concern buying titles from them at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

They also edited Ice Blade back when they first started releasing manga, but compared to the number of series they release, they hardly edit any series at all.

Adaptions though, are sometimes off. (Faries' Landing, anyone?)

ic14

08-16-2005, 10:59 AM

I thought they are only changed the names in ID? Or does that count as editing too?

GodaiStudios

08-16-2005, 12:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IanC said:
I thought they are only changed the names in ID? Or does that count as editing too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Although there is a difference between editing and censoring, for brevity's sake, I'll use it here. The names being changed would count as a one type of editing. In addition to the names being changed for the American release, there were nude scenes removed as well.

Texhnolyze

08-16-2005, 05:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
IanC said:
I thought they are only changed the names in ID? Or does that count as editing too?

[/ QUOTE ]

They removed nudity and sex scenes as well. They told everyone they were going to in the initial (pun intended) press release.

RaeS

08-16-2005, 10:52 PM

[ QUOTE ]
NickFalzarano said:
[ QUOTE ]
kogalsin said:
I think the first volume of GTO had a swastika removed too. So their track record on censorship issues is very good. I was weaned on their manga when the boom just started so I like them quite a bit. I don't think you should have much concern buying titles from them at all.

[/ QUOTE ]

They also edited Ice Blade back when they first started releasing manga, but compared to the number of series they release, they hardly edit any series at all.

Adaptions though, are sometimes off. (Faries' Landing, anyone?)

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't know about that one. Gosh, Ice Blade takes me back to when they were MIXX. Funny since it was rated 18+. Course the series is now out of print.

Johnny

08-17-2005, 03:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
[ QUOTE ]
IanC said:
I thought they are only changed the names in ID? Or does that count as editing too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Although there is a difference between editing and censoring, for brevity's sake, I'll use it here. The names being changed would count as a one type of editing. In addition to the names being changed for the American release, there were nude scenes removed as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

And they got a little "loose" with the translations /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

GodaiStudios

08-17-2005, 07:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
johnny said:
[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
[ QUOTE ]
IanC said:
I thought they are only changed the names in ID? Or does that count as editing too?

[/ QUOTE ]

Although there is a difference between editing and censoring, for brevity's sake, I'll use it here. The names being changed would count as a one type of editing. In addition to the names being changed for the American release, there were nude scenes removed as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

And they got a little "loose" with the translations /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but the worst translating job I've seen has to be Ikkitousen. Because of how bad it is, I refuse to buy it (or read the TP version for that matter.)

Rando

08-17-2005, 05:22 PM

ic14

08-17-2005, 05:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
True, but the worst translating job I've seen has to be Ikkitousen. Because of how bad it is, I refuse to buy it (or read the TP version for that matter.)

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah i feel like shooting the adaptor of that seires.

Ive tried to read all the way, but i have kinda given up after 5 volumes (and given up reading after 3)

GodaiStudios

08-17-2005, 08:20 PM

NickFalzarano

08-17-2005, 11:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Rando said:
[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
True, but the worst translating job I've seen has to be Ikkitousen. Because of how bad it is, I refuse to buy it (or read the TP version for that matter.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Worse than their Sailor Moon translations? :/

[/ QUOTE ]

SailorMoon, while horribly inconsistant and had a lot of stupid things in it, was actually fairly accurate, so long as you ignore certain plot points constantly being refered to as different things, the dub names, and some stupid slang and stuff they put in.

adam_omega

08-18-2005, 07:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Rando said:
Worse than their Sailor Moon translations? :/

[/ QUOTE ]

NickFalzarano is right, the series was pretty accurate. Anything before Jake Forbes taking over during mid-2000 was somewhat iffy at times, but that's because they were shoehorning the DiC dub storyline into the manga. Aside from the first volume of Sailor Moon, the rest of it was okay.

To me, the one thing that was always the most bizarre was the decision to call Usagi "Bunny" when they could have just as easily called her "Serena." They kept all the other DiC names for the inner scouts, why not Miss Moon herself?

08-18-2005, 08:24 PM

I can only speak for what I've worked on as a translator over the last couple of years... I've seen what I consider to be marked improvement. I do my best to be a very good and editor-friendly translator, and the more time I've spent with Tokyopop, the easier it is for my editors (I've had several) to make presentational improvements and to exercise their experience and judgment in selecting from multiple options where there are several possible adequate translations. The "editing" hand has become lighter over time; I'm sure there's lots of reasons but, I like to think my explaining (with translation notes to the editor & adaptor) helps avoid what I feel is the worst problem: confusion. When editors are doing English to English tweaks from a sound text that has confusing parts adequately explained, editors are more effective and better at choosing alternate English phrases to best represent the original Japanese.

Anyway, it makes me happy to say that, at least in my corner of the woods, the editors' work has been pretty decent and the fans have benefited. (It's hard to say that without saying "editing" in the sense that I would normally speak the word...) With the way things are going, I'm having a hard time finding decent editing to be so um, shocking, if you will...

Greywing

08-19-2005, 08:35 AM

[ QUOTE ]
NickFalzarano said:Adaptions though, are sometimes off. (Faries' Landing, anyone?)

[/ QUOTE ]

What was changed or 'off' with Faerie's Landing?

bender

08-20-2005, 07:59 PM

Two words: Keith Giffen

Along with CMX, the worst thing I've yet encountered in American manga. Has ruined Battle Royale and Ikki Tousen.

He should go back to writing second string super hero books for DC and leave manga WELL alone imo.

NickFalzarano

08-20-2005, 11:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Greywing said:
[ QUOTE ]
NickFalzarano said:Adaptions though, are sometimes off. (Faries' Landing, anyone?)

[/ QUOTE ]

What was changed or 'off' with Faerie's Landing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember exactly, but when it was first coming out, people farmilliar with the original were complaining about how inaccurate the adaption was.

Greywing

08-21-2005, 10:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
NickFalzarano said:
[ QUOTE ]
Greywing said:
[ QUOTE ]
NickFalzarano said:Adaptions though, are sometimes off. (Faries' Landing, anyone?)

[/ QUOTE ]

What was changed or 'off' with Faerie's Landing?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't remember exactly, but when it was first coming out, people farmilliar with the original were complaining about how inaccurate the adaption was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, OK, thanks. Anyone else have more info?

[ QUOTE ]
tengu said:Two words: Keith Giffen

Along with CMX, the worst thing I've yet encountered in American manga. Has ruined Battle Royale and Ikki Tousen.

He should go back to writing second string super hero books for DC and leave manga WELL alone imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've wondered this for a while - what exactly is Giffen's involvement with Battle Royale? Does he do re-writes based on the actual translation?

adam_omega

08-21-2005, 05:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Greywing said:
I've wondered this for a while - what exactly is Giffen's involvement with Battle Royale? Does he do re-writes based on the actual translation?

[/ QUOTE ]

Right, he does rewrites, which is known as "English Adaptation" in the credits. The main reason Keith Giffen's name is linked to this debate is an interview prior to the release of volume 1 of Battle Royale in which he cited some lines of dialogue that he altered to individualize the characters and/or spice up the story (you're pick).

Richard A. Knaak was the rewriter of Ragnarok and he comes from a novel background, but you don't hear his rewrites being debated like Giffen's. It's all to do with the fact that most translators and rewriters keep their mouths shut and let the editors/companies do the talking as they're simply freelancers, at the end of the day.

In the case of Battle Royale, TOKYOPOP wanted the series sold into comic shops and with Giffen on board, it did just that. Battle Royale was meant for as wide an audience it could have gotten being shrink-wrapped and that audience seems to have been the direct market and not bookstores. Hence, the heavy-handed rewrite.

I know how much it tends to piss people off when lines of dialogue are changed, but what readers tend to forget is that there are some companies that don't even do rewrites. They simply slap a translation into the book and just release that. That's good if the translators are skilled enough to do a good enough job the first time out of the gate, but the industry is not like that right now. You're seeing corners and wages being cut across the board.

In some cases of domestic manga, the original translation is just horrible and has to have a rewrite just to make it releasable. In other cases, the translation can and should just be corrected by an editor and put in the book with some minor tweaks to the dialogue to make it fit the balloons. If the manga gets botched during the layout phase, then it means the company isn't paying their layout artist enough. ^_-

ZeframMann

08-21-2005, 05:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
tengu said:
Two words: Keith Giffen

Along with CMX, the worst thing I've yet encountered in American manga. Has ruined Battle Royale and Ikki Tousen.

He should go back to writing second string super hero books for DC and leave manga WELL alone imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Second string? What? Like Justice League? The man has written more successful books than most manga creators you could probably name. The stuff he did for Image was by far the most readable (next to Alan Moore's stuff) the company had at the time.

I think the problem is that he is, for lack of a better term, just too damn creative for the role he's filling, and not an appropriate choice for adapting someone else's work.

witega

08-21-2005, 08:18 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Greywing said:
[ QUOTE ]
NickFalzarano said:Adaptions though, are sometimes off. (Faries' Landing, anyone?)

[/ QUOTE ]

What was changed or 'off' with Faerie's Landing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fanta is not a 'fairy' from 'Avalon'. She's a goddess from Heaven. From there, basically all the supernatural elements are 'off'. 'Robin Goodfellow,' 'Medea,' 'Oberon,' 'Bast', etc have all their names changed, and while some are original and some are tied to Korean mythology/folklore, none of them have anything to do with the Western figures they are being shoe-horned into matching. This in turn leads to some awkward rewriting, for example trying to explain how the 'Goddess of Cats' Bast is weaker than 'fairies' like Fanta and Medea.

Greywing

08-22-2005, 05:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
witega said:
[ QUOTE ]
Greywing said:
[ QUOTE ]
NickFalzarano said:Adaptions though, are sometimes off. (Faries' Landing, anyone?)

[/ QUOTE ]

What was changed or 'off' with Faerie's Landing?

[/ QUOTE ]

Fanta is not a 'fairy' from 'Avalon'. She's a goddess from Heaven. From there, basically all the supernatural elements are 'off'. 'Robin Goodfellow,' 'Medea,' 'Oberon,' 'Bast', etc have all their names changed, and while some are original and some are tied to Korean mythology/folklore, none of them have anything to do with the Western figures they are being shoe-horned into matching. This in turn leads to some awkward rewriting, for example trying to explain how the 'Goddess of Cats' Bast is weaker than 'fairies' like Fanta and Medea.

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn, that's a lot of changes - I would say that definately counts as editing. My girlfriend loves that series too....

adam_omega

08-22-2005, 05:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Greywing said:
Damn, that's a lot of changes - I would say that definately counts as editing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't call that editing, that's just an example of a company American-izing the names.

I haven't ever read that series, but I'd wager that the higher-ups at TOKYOPOP and/or the Korean licensers wanted the changes made. The same exact thing happened with PhD: Phantasy Degree. Blazin' Barrels also have name changes, but that's because someone would've gotten sued if they didn't change them.

[ QUOTE ]
My girlfriend loves that series too....

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that her opinion will change much after learning the names were changed, but she's probably better off not knowing (i.e. ignorance is bliss). It's not like she'll drop the series if she loves reading it.

Greywing

08-22-2005, 06:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
adamomega said:
[ QUOTE ]
Greywing said:
Damn, that's a lot of changes - I would say that definately counts as editing.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't call that editing, that's just an example of a company American-izing the names.

I haven't ever read that series, but I'd wager that the higher-ups at TOKYOPOP and/or the Korean licensers wanted the changes made. The same exact thing happened with PhD: Phantasy Degree. Blazin' Barrels also have name changes, but that's because someone would've gotten sued if they didn't change them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Admittedly, it's not as bad as removing content or altering artwork but it's still changing the original content. From the sounds of the Bast plotline, it seems to have caused some problems too.

[ QUOTE ]
Greywing said:
[ QUOTE ]
My girlfriend loves that series too....

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think that her opinion will change much after learning the names were changed, but she's probably better off not knowing (i.e. ignorance is bliss). It's not like she'll drop the series if she loves reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

It'll probably annoy her though - we're both sticklers over major alterations or edits to, well, anything. TV, movies, video games, comics, anime, manga, etc. She lurks on this board too, so she'll probably find out about the changes anyway. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

JeffDM

08-22-2005, 09:30 AM

[ QUOTE ]
adamomega said:
I wouldn't call that editing, that's just an example of a company American-izing the names.

I haven't ever read that series, but I'd wager that the higher-ups at TOKYOPOP and/or the Korean licensers wanted the changes made. The same exact thing happened with PhD: Phantasy Degree. Blazin' Barrels also have name changes, but that's because someone would've gotten sued if they didn't change them.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Americanizing" names takes away the authenticity though, as it isn't an American work. I don't have anything against American works (I read several), but I am against trying to make things into something they are not. No, it probably doesn't change the core story but that's not necessarily the point. I think causually changing even just the Korean or Japanese names does a disservice to the readers. I mean, if changing all the proper nouns is what it takes to get accepted in the market, or what the businesses think is what it takes, then I think there is a problem. I'll grant that sometimes, certain conditions might require changes, but it's still a situation I'd prefer to avoid whenever possible. Pioneer got around the trademark issue in the Bastard anime by simply using the romanization of katakana in the dubbing and subbing.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that her opinion will change much after learning the names were changed, but she's probably better off not knowing (i.e. ignorance is bliss). It's not like she'll drop the series if she loves reading it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think ignorance is ever a good idea. It may be a good idea to drop it in the hopes of stopping an unnecessary practice. If you truly believe it is a legitimate practice, I think it should be made known rather than obscured. Hiding the practice only makes the changes and motivations behind them seem altogether more suspicious.

pianocello

08-22-2005, 10:13 PM

I should also mention that much of the dialogue in Saber Marionette J was rewritten.

Greywing

08-23-2005, 05:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
piano_cello_conducting said:
I should also mention that much of the dialogue in Saber Marionette J was rewritten.

[/ QUOTE ]

D'oh! >_< Any examples?

08-23-2005, 08:29 AM

Re: SMJ, like I said, I only did the first volume - consider it a trial run. It was months afterward when Tokyopop picked me up as a freelancer and started feeding me steady work starting with Pet Shop of Horrors. I can't speak of specifics of SMJ but...

When I came into this business, a lot of the people in it were - and are - refugees from the comic book industry. They have a vision of what dialogue should look like and try to fit manga translations into it. The question is if this effort is faithful to the original or not.

A lot of comics people feel that the final version of a translation is better "readable" than "accurate," but being a translator with pride, I don't concede one has to come at the expense of the other. I know what I do has to be readable, but I want to be as much help as I can allowing maximum accuracy and faithfulness. And, overall, as I said, I have seen improvement in this.

However, when I see these complaints about CMX etc etc, I am reminded of this attitude that manga is the new kid on the block and needs to conform to American (comic book) attitudes about how dialogue should read. Few people implementing this principle can read Japanese. Some of it is, therefore, a communications issue, which is why I said before that confusion is a huge problem when it comes to end products inconsistent with the original. (I am not advocating unchanged products. I am advocating consistent products.)

Anyway, like I said. Improvement. SMJ was a good couple of years ago (when I did vol. 1). TP's improving with time on this. Not fast enough for a lot of people, but I have to pay the bills this way so, might as well do my part to help while I'm at it.

adam_omega

08-23-2005, 07:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Jeremiah Bourque said:
A lot of comics people feel that the final version of a translation is better "readable" than "accurate," but being a translator with pride, I don't concede one has to come at the expense of the other. I know what I do has to be readable, but I want to be as much help as I can allowing maximum accuracy and faithfulness. And, overall, as I said, I have seen improvement in this.

[/ QUOTE ]

My mode of thinking is along the same lines. You need to be faithful, but the final product has to read naturally (i.e. not like a translation). VIZ, TOKYOPOP, Del Rey and Dark Horse are all making the effort to make their translations read like normal book. No offense to Comics-One or CPM, but some of their translations feel stiff...as if they were translated and that's it.

See, the ideal scenario is to have a translator that can do both the translation and the rewrite. That's what you see with Dark Horse titles and some of Del Rey's books. I know people hate Dark Horse for their artwork edits, but from a packaging standpoint, Studio Proteus was the best in the business in terms of readability. My view, but I stick with it.

Now, you have companies cutting corners with their licenses. You'll find that there are some translators that can only translate the words, but aren't being paid enough to do much more than a passable translation. You have to rewrite their output because people wouldn't read past the first chapter of the book otherwise.

And then you have sloppy layout. TOKYOPOP doesn't tend to mess up word balloons often, but they still don't include sound effects in a lot of cases, which is just sad. But hey, what can you do?

Oh right...buy the original tankouban. ^_-

pianocello

08-24-2005, 12:13 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Greywing said:
[ QUOTE ]
piano_cello_conducting said:
I should also mention that much of the dialogue in Saber Marionette J was rewritten.

[/ QUOTE ]

D'oh! >_< Any examples?

[/ QUOTE ]
Practically half the dialogue has been written. While it may be true that Bloodberry may act oversexed, most of Lime's dialogue is innocent. "Pass the volleyball" (or something to that effect) does not translate as "if I win, do I get the prize in Otaru's pants?" Also street talk and terms like "bitches" do not belong in the original Japanese manga.
(I'm going from the top of my memory since my JP copy is not here right now).

adam_omega

08-24-2005, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
piano_cello_conducting said:
"Pass the volleyball" (or something to that effect) does not translate as "if I win, do I get the prize in Otaru's pants?" Also street talk and terms like "bitches" do not belong in the original Japanese manga.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe TOKYOPOP unearthed SMJ's long lost dub outtakes and based their rewrite on those. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

08-24-2005, 01:21 AM

Well, even though I'm a pretty good amateur writer (basically a notch below pro) and I effectively rewrite my own work (I have to change Japanese sentence structure to English sentence structure, so I just try to make it into good English on the spot), there has to be some kind of editor to provide a second guess. Just has to be. It's not sound practice for anything else to exist.

Now, rewriters have pride in *their* work and want to leave their mark on things if possible, which is natural. Basically if I make their job really easy so they can focus on presentational issues and subjective use of colloquialisms, I'm doing my job.

All that said, to *me*, the tankoban is like night and day. Even when it's my own work. (Well, I mean my own work rewritten for public consumption.) It's not even an accuracy issue. I'm just a big fan of the Japanese language's inherent complexity, how it 'sounds' when I read it, etc.

But, something I need to say - a translator who accepts pay as an excuse to do a translation that is 'only passable' is a translator who should not be working in the entertainment business. The fact is, 5% more polish can often make a radically disproportionate difference in the quality of the product that the rewriter and the editor get to see. Sure, knowing what to do helps, talent and experience helps, but if you're not putting in the last 5%, you're selling the reader short. No need to be that cheap.

I like to say this stuff once in a while because I want those who read this to understand the difference between editing that detracts from the original product, and editing that improves the final product. Most of you can't just read the tankoban and get the full benefit from it, so we in the industry should feel obliged to do the best we can, within what's possible.

adam_omega

08-24-2005, 03:17 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Jeremiah Bourque said:
But, something I need to say - a translator who accepts pay as an excuse to do a translation that is 'only passable' is a translator who should not be working in the entertainment business. The fact is, 5% more polish can often make a radically disproportionate difference in the quality of the product that the rewriter and the editor get to see. Sure, knowing what to do helps, talent and experience helps, but if you're not putting in the last 5%, you're selling the reader short. No need to be that cheap.

[/ QUOTE ]

I totally agree with you on this one, but you have to remember that the companies themselves are the ones that are being cheap. The biggest example that anyone can see is that TOKYOPOP is still cutting corners with the sound effects and it's lead to CMX and other companies not translating some of their sound effects. Granted, you don't necessarily need them in some series, but they're a part of the story and the translators do put them in their scripts...they just someone get lost by the time the book comes out.

Also, there is the bigger issue of companies cutting costs across the board. Flat rates for translation/rewrite/layout and set costs per page are what a lot of the companies in the industry have either moved to already or are shifting to. It's not a pretty picture when you consider you're effectively giving people demotions. The only way for the people doing the work to earn what they were is to take on more projects just to earn a living. These people either have to lump it...or go somewhere else and someone else more willing to take the lower pay rate (and, possibly, less qualified) takes their place. It's a vicious cycle that most consumers don't get to see until they end up with a sub-standard product.

08-24-2005, 09:28 PM

Ok, what I'm saying, simply, is that it's fine if we want to say as an industry issue that the companies are doing it cheap when you compare fees paid for other types of translations but, an individual translator shouldn't look at himself/herself and say, "Ok, the company's doing it cheap so *I'm* going to do it cheap". Which is, I presume, what people are tempted to do. I just think it's selling a) yourself, b) the reader, short if you succumb to that temptation.

Maybe someday I'll work my way up where I can have more influence than just as a translator. We'll see but, in the meantime, I have to hold up my end and cross my fingers. My reaction to a lot of translated manga is, "Not perfect, but far from horrible." It's a start.

JeffDM

08-25-2005, 10:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
adamomega said:
I totally agree with you on this one, but you have to remember that the companies themselves are the ones that are being cheap. The biggest example that anyone can see is that TOKYOPOP is still cutting corners with the sound effects and it's lead to CMX and other companies not translating some of their sound effects. Granted, you don't necessarily need them in some series, but they're a part of the story and the translators do put them in their scripts...they just someone get lost by the time the book comes out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on this point. Sound effects should get translated. Of course, there are differences of opinion on how and where to put them, but at minimum, I want that translation.

What fans can do is give their input on this particular issue.

There isn't much I can say about the employment and pay issues. I hope it works out for everyone involved in the industry, I'd hate to see the best get burned out and have to leave the industry due to the time and pay pressures.

Njr Scrawl

08-27-2005, 05:51 AM

This is the BR manga article. (http://www.newsarama.com/Battle_Royale.htm)

Njr Scrawl

08-27-2005, 06:08 AM

[ QUOTE ]
JeffDM said:
[ QUOTE ]
adamomega said:
I totally agree with you on this one, but you have to remember that the companies themselves are the ones that are being cheap. The biggest example that anyone can see is that TOKYOPOP is still cutting corners with the sound effects and it's lead to CMX and other companies not translating some of their sound effects. Granted, you don't necessarily need them in some series, but they're a part of the story and the translators do put them in their scripts...they just someone get lost by the time the book comes out.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree on this point. Sound effects should get translated. Of course, there are differences of opinion on how and where to put them, but at minimum, I want that translation.

What fans can do is give their input on this particular issue.

There isn't much I can say about the employment and pay issues. I hope it works out for everyone involved in the industry, I'd hate to see the best get burned out and have to leave the industry due to the time and pay pressures.

[/ QUOTE ]

Before the current print series of Eva manga, I bought the monthlies & flipped GN's which had translated sound effects, and also the unflipped volumes which had the Japanese sound effects, for which each volume had a glossary.

I prefer the originals effects in kanji being kept as the style is part of the art for its panel, but translation footnoted on the bottom of each page, not all in one place.

What I do hate are stories where original units of measurement & quantity are edited=Americanised to make them more reader-recognisable. In X-Days, a story set in Japan, prices of items were changed from Yen to Dollars. AAARGH! Almost as bad as editing bodyparts.

What do people think about screen readouts on phones, computers, TV & even signs? Would you prefer them translated - if so which, or left as original with a translation note below?

adam_omega

08-27-2005, 06:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
I prefer the originals effects in kanji being kept as the style is part of the art for its panel, but translation footnoted on the bottom of each page, not all in one place.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I absolutely loathe back of the book glosseries. They're next to useless.

I'm not sure what you mean by SFX footnotes at the bottom of the page. Do you mean in the panel margines? That's the only thing I can think you mean.

As far as SFX go in general, I'd either like to have them fully-overlayed if the company doing them happens to be Studio Proteus, but I think the approach Jake decided to go with for the Go! Comi titles (see their blog from August 9 (http://www.gocomi.com/blog/)) is the best one overall.

[ QUOTE ]
What I do hate are stories where original units of measurement & quantity are edited=Americanised to make them more reader-recognisable. In X-Days, a story set in Japan, prices of items were changed from Yen to Dollars. AAARGH! Almost as bad as editing bodyparts.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know some editors at TOKYOPOP ask that you do the meteric conversions. In some cases, it tends to horribly affect the story if you do that, so I think the better way to handle that is to just provide a footnote showing the conversion and just leaving it as meteric in the dialogue. That weight loss chapter in A.I. Love You is a good example of that (can't recall the volume).

[ QUOTE ]
What do people think about screen readouts on phones, computers, TV & even signs? Would you prefer them translated - if so which, or left as original with a translation note below?

[/ QUOTE ]

If it's a part of the art and isn't a SFX or EFX, then it needs to be overlayed.

ic14

08-27-2005, 01:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
What do people think about screen readouts on phones, computers, TV & even signs? Would you prefer them translated - if so which, or left as original with a translation note below?

[/ QUOTE ]
Translated, retouched.

Same with SFX, thought i have more leeway with that. (as long as theres a translation i dont mind)

Johnny

08-27-2005, 02:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:

What I do hate are stories where original units of measurement & quantity are edited=Americanised to make them more reader-recognisable. In X-Days, a story set in Japan, prices of items were changed from Yen to Dollars. AAARGH! Almost as bad as editing bodyparts.

What do people think about screen readouts on phones, computers, TV & even signs? Would you prefer them translated - if so which, or left as original with a translation note below?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, things like that annoy me aswell.

About the signs etc - I'd much rather have them left as they are with a little translation next to them.
Also, I don't like it when chapter titles are translated in an ugly way - I think (as in I'm not 100% sure - correct me if I'm wrong) an example of this is Tough (not Tokyopop) where each chapter title page has bold English which I presume is translated and it sticks out a bit.

Peter Ahlstrom

08-27-2005, 02:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Njr Scrawl said:
What do people think about screen readouts on phones, computers, TV & even signs? Would you prefer them translated - if so which, or left as original with a translation note below?

[/ QUOTE ]
In Tokyo Tribes, editor Luis Reyes footnoted all the background signs on the street scenes, and when the pages were sent to the creator Santa Inoue for approval, he deleted almost all the footnotes, presumably because they cluttered the page up too much.

bctaris

08-27-2005, 04:07 PM

[ QUOTE ]
adamomega said:
As far as SFX go in general, I'd either like to have them fully-overlayed if the company doing them happens to be Studio Proteus, but I think the approach Jake decided to go with for the Go! Comi titles (see their blog from August 9 (http://www.gocomi.com/blog/)) is the best one overall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he nailed it there. That's near exactly what I'd prefer. Wish every publisher would detail out there own rationale for their sfx policies like that.

Well done, Jake!

Jarred

08-27-2005, 04:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
bctaris said:
[ QUOTE ]
adamomega said:
As far as SFX go in general, I'd either like to have them fully-overlayed if the company doing them happens to be Studio Proteus, but I think the approach Jake decided to go with for the Go! Comi titles (see their blog from August 9 (http://www.gocomi.com/blog/)) is the best one overall.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he nailed it there. That's near exactly what I'd prefer. Wish every publisher would detail out there own rationale for their sfx policies like that.

Well done, Jake!

[/ QUOTE ]
I've also noticed Tokyopop I believe starting to do SFX this way with a couple titles. BECK had a mixture of different approaches as well, retouched, subbed margin, and left alone, that worked out pretty well.

It makes perfect sense. Why try and do all the SFX the same way? Use the right technique for the right SFX.

09-22-2005, 05:18 AM

[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
They've done some censoring in the past (Initial D) and requested the censored version of Tokyo Tribes, but other than that... no. In fact, in this newsrama posting (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=475680379833b592a0dfb2dd4d4aa7c2& threadid=29777), it's clear that they would rather not censor at all.

[/ QUOTE ]I think ID was the first and last manga they censored. The sells for ID weren't what they expected. I hope they learned their lesson.

flchick

09-22-2005, 07:39 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Golthin said:
[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
They've done some censoring in the past (Initial D) and requested the censored version of Tokyo Tribes, but other than that... no. In fact, in this newsrama posting (http://newsarama.com/forums/showthread.php?s=475680379833b592a0dfb2dd4d4aa7c2& threadid=29777), it's clear that they would rather not censor at all.

[/ QUOTE ]I think ID was the first and last manga they censored. The sells for ID weren't what they expected. I hope they learned their lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

What about Wish? I thought they changed one of the characters gender but I could be wrong.

Also I don't like how they use different cover art for some series and I wish they would stop putting that ugly star thing on the front covers of fruits basket.

jlazar

09-22-2005, 08:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Golthin said:I think ID was the first and last manga they censored. The sells for ID weren't what they expected. I hope they learned their lesson.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there's Tokyo Tribes. I've heard two different stories about it:

1) It was released as an unedited and edited version in Japan before TP licensed it and TP chose to license the censored version.

2) That it was TP that did the edits themselves (and possibly that version was released in Japan to legitimize it?).

Anyone know the exact details or sure?

witega

09-22-2005, 09:28 PM

Wish: While Tokyopop has engaged in large-scale rewrites on some series (Battle Royale, Faerie's Landing, etc), there was no editing or gender-switching in Wish. Several of the main characters in Wish are genderless. And while Japanese gives plenty of options to refer to people without specifying gender, English is more limited. The translation chose to use 'she' for some characters and 'he' for others rather than 'it', the only genderless pronoun in English. But the parts which make clear that those characters are in fact neither male nor female were all translated correctly.

Tokyo Tribes: I'm surprised there's any confusion here. Tokyopop employees, at least one of whom actually worked on Tokyo Tribes, posted here during the initial furor over the censorship. Tokyopop and the manga-ka felt Tokyo Tribes would sell better in America if it was edited to keep it at an 'older teen' rating rather than the 'mature' the original Japanese version would merit. The manga-ka was directly involved in editing the American version--approving each edit and even approving the type of censorship bars used. But there is only one Japanese version and the American version has the art edited. In fact, on the publication info page of volume 1 of the American version, it rather condescendingly states 'This edition has been edited for your protection' (I forget the exact words and did not buy the manga after reading that, but it is something very close to that).

SuperMunchkin

09-22-2005, 10:02 PM

Only thing I hate with the USA manga companies is when they feel the need to "Americanize" words, phrases and such that it makes the manga itself feel "wrong". (didn't know any other way to describe it... )

For example, some characters loose there actual -character- from the poor translations from Jp to En.
Also noted was things like changing Yen->US$/changing signs/ect.
Hate when puns and other things are changed when they can just put a note on the page.
Other thing I hate is when "honorifics" are omitted.

Don't understand why companies do this to manga.(esp. when they can put notes on the page) I would really like a truthful translation thats as close as can be to the original.

I have seen a few TokyoPop mangas... they are simply horrible with many of there "translations".
But I guess it all depends on the editor in the end.

Now I'm not bashing USA manga companies and telling everyone to just read scanlations. Just would like to see an improvement within the industry.

jlazar

09-22-2005, 10:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
[ QUOTE ]
IanC said:
I thought they are only changed the names in ID? Or does that count as editing too?

[/ QUOTE ]

They removed nudity and sex scenes as well. They told everyone they were going to in the initial (pun intended) press release.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, vol 1 was first released unedited, so the decision to censor it wasn't from the start.

flchick

09-22-2005, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
witega said:
Wish: While Tokyopop has engaged in large-scale rewrites on some series (Battle Royale, Faerie's Landing, etc), there was no editing or gender-switching in Wish. Several of the main characters in Wish are genderless. And while Japanese gives plenty of options to refer to people without specifying gender, English is more limited. The translation chose to use 'she' for some characters and 'he' for others rather than 'it', the only genderless pronoun in English. But the parts which make clear that those characters are in fact neither male nor female were all translated correctly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shuichiro in Wish is clearly a male and the angle is the "it" but if you look at the character is looks male. Also how can parts of the translation be correct when referring to the angle as "she" and other parts as an "it"? Thanks for trying to explain anyway. But this probably would have been TP's first yaoi title but some people wouldn't have been able to handle it back then.

lunap

09-22-2005, 11:36 PM

Wish is so very /not/ yaoi o_o;;;;
To regurgitate what Witega said:
Shuichiro is a human, so he's definitely male. The angels are genderless. It is a fact; boys love fans will tell you differently, but thats just slash. Unless you've been confusing fanfiction with canon, they have never been adressed by any gender in Japanese.
As far as i know, every language in the world has these patterns except english. So rest assured, its not some Tokyopop conspiracy.

witega

09-22-2005, 11:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
flchick said:
Shuichiro in Wish is clearly a male and the angle is the "it" but if you look at the character is looks male. Also how can parts of the translation be correct when referring to the angle as "she" and other parts as an "it"? Thanks for trying to explain anyway. But this probably would have been TP's first yaoi title but some people wouldn't have been able to handle it back then.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order to be a 'yaoi' title, Kohaku (the angel) would have to be male. 'It' is not. As both the Japanese and English versions make clear. However, in English, calling a sentient being 'it' is both rude and misleading (as 'it' implies a thing not a person). English does not have a genderless way of politely referring to individuals. Japanese does--words like 'kochira' not only apply to any individual regardless of gender but are actually politer than many of the words that do define gender. Referring to Kohaku as 'he', 'she' or 'it' would all be incorrect in one way or another--but you can't write natural-sounding English without using one of the 3. Tokyopop went with 'she' for all the angels--a very defensible translation, particularly since they accurately translated the actual lines in which it is explained that the angels are neither male nor female.

09-23-2005, 12:08 AM

I think improvement is being achieved gradually. There are cases where changes involving not yen but let's say, metric system to imperial system weights, bug me a lot less than a lot of the fandom. OTOH, characters losing their actual character is my nightmare as a translator. Feeling "wrong" is something I try to avoid by working to make the editors' jobs a lot easier and providing a lot of guidance for what the original *felt* like to me as I worked on it.

In a way it is up to the editor, but garbage in, garbage out. I want people to be able to see Jeremiah Bourque in the credits and know the translation job was done well. (For my sake and for TokyoPop) But, there are plenty of readers and editors who see a need to fit works into the comic book literate market. The only real answer is to just be good about how you do business. Like I've said - I think I'm seeing steady progress, and I'm optimistic about improvement from here.

I'll still hear about a particularly egregious case and want to throw people through windows, though. I like to appreciate the business, but I'm passionate about my craft...

flchick

09-23-2005, 12:39 AM

Thanks, Witega for further explaining what original words were used. That makes sense now and I never meant it was yaoi but if TP would have used "he" it would have been. Thanks again for taking the time to explain /images/graemlins/happy.gif

09-23-2005, 08:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
witega said:
[ QUOTE ]
flchick said:
Shuichiro in Wish is clearly a male and the angle is the "it" but if you look at the character is looks male. Also how can parts of the translation be correct when referring to the angle as "she" and other parts as an "it"? Thanks for trying to explain anyway. But this probably would have been TP's first yaoi title but some people wouldn't have been able to handle it back then.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order to be a 'yaoi' title, Kohaku (the angel) would have to be male. 'It' is not. As both the Japanese and English versions make clear. However, in English, calling a sentient being 'it' is both rude and misleading (as 'it' implies a thing not a person). English does not have a genderless way of politely referring to individuals. Japanese does--words like 'kochira' not only apply to any individual regardless of gender but are actually politer than many of the words that do define gender. Referring to Kohaku as 'he', 'she' or 'it' would all be incorrect in one way or another--but you can't write natural-sounding English without using one of the 3. Tokyopop went with 'she' for all the angels--a very defensible translation, particularly since they accurately translated the actual lines in which it is explained that the angels are neither male nor female.

[/ QUOTE ]
If I am not mistaken, there was one angel that was addressed as male.