Think before you get a kanji tatoo

[gilly]

A second opinion might be good:

Bad Kanji (http://www.hanzismatter.com/)

[beatmania]

So there is a site that does in-depth analysis of bad tattoos ... okay ...

[quenelf]

Well, I thought it was interesting.

nice link, cheers.

--quen

[badasscat]

Fun site... I love it when I see tattoos like this, I can't read them myself but just from experience I know they're almost always wrong in some way. I just don't understand why people can't seem to comprehend that they're having real words in a real language tattooed on them, they're not just cool-looking characters.

Once my wife saw a guy getting off the train near us with a tattoo that said "table". Another guy at one point had one that said "water". These aren't that bad but why the hell would you tattoo the word "table" on your arm?? It just makes no sense.

There's something vaguely racist about it, even... just the fact that these people think these languages themselves are irrelevant, despite the fact that billions of people speak them... but what apparently matters is just how cool the characters look to westerners.

(Of course, the same is really true of Engrish t-shirts you see Asian people wearing sometimes, a lot of which make about the same amount of sense as these tattoos.)

[quenelf]

[ QUOTE ]
Jeff Williams said:
There's something vaguely racist about it, even... just the fact that these people think these languages themselves are irrelevant, despite the fact that billions of people speak them... but what apparently matters is just how cool the characters look to westerners.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's not remotely racist. Ignorant yes, and racism is sometimes a form of ignorance, but not this one. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

To be honest, using words or characters (from whichever language) because they look cool is really a perfectly good reason anyway in my opinion. I don't think there's anything *wrong* with that - it might be a bad move because certain people might laugh at you, but I don't think there's anything objectionable about it at all. Characters aren't holy symbols to disrespect; they're just characters.

--quen

[badasscat]

[ QUOTE ]
quen said:
I think it's not remotely racist. Ignorant yes, and racism is sometimes a form of ignorance, but not this one. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

To be honest, using words or characters (from whichever language) because they look cool is really a perfectly good reason anyway in my opinion. I don't think there's anything *wrong* with that - it might be a bad move because certain people might laugh at you, but I don't think there's anything objectionable about it at all. Characters aren't holy symbols to disrespect; they're just characters.

--quen

[/ QUOTE ]

That's not my point - the point is the fact that this is a real *language* that's actually spoken by real people is not even considered. It's completely egocentric - it's this mentality that the value of everything in the world is determined by how cool it is to a westerner.

Maybe "racist" isn't the right word, because it's not exactly race that's the issue, but it's definitely some form of prejudice. "Ethnicist", maybe. Or "regionalist". Or whatever.

But the point is at root, there's definitely an idea that the only thing that matters is what westerners think. If a billion people in the world are gonna laugh at you, who cares? My five friends who don't even acknowledge that other cultures actually exist in the real world think it looks cool. Right?

(And remember my last sentence in my previous post, I'm not saying this is unique to us.)

But don't get me wrong, it's not something I lose sleep over. I read engrish.com and I had fun reading this site and I laugh at this stuff. But it's just in my nature to always try to look at the real story behind anything, and there's definitely something other than a real appreciation for other cultures going on here...

[lyndaf]

[ QUOTE ]
Jeff Williams said:
Maybe "racist" isn't the right word, because it's not exactly race that's the issue, but it's definitely some form of prejudice. "Ethnicist", maybe. Or "regionalist". Or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think egocentric is a decent word for it. The other word that might fit what you are thinking is ethnocentric: characterized by or based on the attitude that one's own group is superior

L

[meganly_chan]

This is why I don't like to wear shirts with Chinese or Japanese characters on them. If I can't read it then I have no idea what they might think when they see it /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif Like Engrish shirts. Hilarious to me but they probably have no clue what it says.

[BonifaceVIII]

I got one when I was 18. I still to this day have no idea what it means. There was a lot of Southern Comfort imbibed that night.

[Dagger]

[ QUOTE ]
quen said:
To be honest, using words or characters (from whichever language) because they look cool is really a perfectly good reason anyway in my opinion. I don't think there's anything *wrong* with that - it might be a bad move because certain people might laugh at you, but I don't think there's anything objectionable about it at all. Characters aren't holy symbols to disrespect; they're just characters.

--quen

[/ QUOTE ]
Moreover, it seems to me that this is little different from the gratuitous use of English words & phrases in a Japanese context (like, on shirts and stuff)--the meaning often doesn't matter, because they're just supposed to sit there and look cool.

[jmarken]

[ QUOTE ]
BonifaceVIII said:
I got one when I was 18. I still to this day have no idea what it means. There was a lot of Southern Comfort imbibed that night.

[/ QUOTE ]

Post a pic, maybe we can help you out.

[JohnThacker]

[ QUOTE ]
Jeff Williams said:

That's not my point - the point is the fact that this is a real *language* that's actually spoken by real people is not even considered. It's completely egocentric - it's this mentality that the value of everything in the world is determined by how cool it is to a westerner.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I agree with you up to a point, but OTOH I doubt that that many people go into a shop and just ask for a tattoo of a character that looks cool, regardless of its meaning. In my experience, people mostly ask for "the Chinese (or Japanese) for X," where X is something that they think is cool. And I think that that is considering that it's a real language spoken by real people. (Certainly Japanese people understand that English is a real language; they do study it in school, whereas Chinese and Japanese are rarer in school.) The problems are more that people don't consider how things don't translate literally (especially phrases and compound words-- "悪尻" is not a translation of "badass"), people don't know how to translate into the language, and the people doing the tattooing don't know the characters well enough to correctly make them and all the strokes.

Ignorance does not always imply ethnocentrism, especially when someone is aware of their ignorance. (Indeed, I'd rather have someone who is aware of their ignorance than someone who believes that they know all about a country from seeing popular TV shows and movies.)

[BonifaceVIII]

Don't have a camera. But I can make a white man's mspaint approximation if you think that'll help.

[quenelf]

[ QUOTE ]
niche_manga_reader said:
I think egocentric is a decent word for it. The other word that might fit what you are thinking is ethnocentric: characterized by or based on the attitude that one's own group is superior


[/ QUOTE ]

I really, really don't think it's either - even if (as John pointed out, this is unlikely) people do choose a character purely because it looks nice. There is nothing whatsoever wrong with making that kind of purely aesthetic judgement and it doesn't imply any feeling of superiority or ego. If I choose to have a tattoo with æ—— in it even though I have no idea what that character means but I think it looks nice, that doesn't mean any disrespect to anybody at all - just as it doesn't if a Chinese person decides to use the word 'symbiont' because it looks/sounds cool, regardless of any meaning. Either are absolutely fine and neither imply any disrespect of other cultures.

It's simply not a requirement to consider other cultures when picking an image for *your* body.

--quen

[quenelf]

[ QUOTE ]
BonifaceVIII said:
Don't have a camera. But I can make a white man's mspaint approximation if you think that'll help.

[/ QUOTE ]

Aww, nobody in the house has one? Not even a phone camera or something? Well, have a go with the mspaint if you can?

Doubt I'll be able to read it (I don't do calligraphic-form kanji) but somebody might be and I'm curious now as to whether your tattoo actually says 'dog fucker' or something /images/graemlins/happy.gif (Well, you said you were drunk, the tattooist might've taken advantage...)

--quen

[BonifaceVIII]

That's why mine doesn't bother me so much, it at least looks good. And it's hidden from sight.

[Elana]

That's why I'd never get a tattoo written in a language I don't expressly understand the meaning of the characters. That said, my next tattoo is going to have writing in a foreign language (Hebrew) in it. However, although I can't speak Hebrew, I can read it. It's going to simply be my name, which translates to 'tree'. I've FINALLY figured out placement and content from a vague idea I've had for 5 years now. My name is 5 characters (aleph - ×?, lamma – ל, nuph – ×*, hay – ×”) with the vowels omitted or ×?ל×*×” (there would be a vowel under the lamma and nuph if I included them, but in Hebrew they're optional – ×?לַ×*ָה) and I plan to wrap it just above my ankle and join the first and final character with an image of the tree of life (http://www.bethelcraftgallery.com/photogallery/Round%20Tree%20of%20Life.jpg) (not necessarily that particular one).

BTW, the characters above are in Unicode. Sorry if it's gibberish to anyone. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Ö¸

[Scaramanga]

For the most part I'm going to have to side with Quen on this one. I don't think it's egocentric or anything. What it IS is elitist. People get "X in Japanese/Chinese" not only because it looks cool, but because I'm sure they're certain people will ask them "Hey, what does that mean?" There's just this sort of air of cool superiority that these people tend to have (which I find ironic since probably most people that CAN actually read it are laughing at them.)

I'm reminded of a cartoon I once saw (can't recall the source, sorry) wherein a Japanese fellow is depicted as getting a tattoo and the tattooist tells him "This is really 'cool' in English." The next panel, you can see that the tatto reads "I suck cocks". Vulgar, but it DID seem funny.

[ QUOTE ]
Elana said:
That's why I'd never get a tattoo written in a language I don't expressly understand the meaning of the characters. That said, my next tattoo is going to have writing in a foreign language (Hebrew) in it. However, although I can't speak Hebrew, I can read it. It's going to simply be my name, which translates to 'tree'. I've FINALLY figured out placement and content from a vague idea I've had for 5 years now. My name is 5 characters (aleph - ×?, lamma – ל, nuph – ×*, hay – ×”) with the vowels omitted or ×?ל×*×” (there would be a vowel under the lamma and nuph if I included them, but in Hebrew they're optional – ×?לַ×*ָה) and I plan to wrap it just above my ankle and join the first and final character with an image of the tree of life (http://www.bethelcraftgallery.com/photogallery/Round%20Tree%20of%20Life.jpg) (not necessarily that particular one).

[/ QUOTE ]
Please tell me you're getting this tattoo for irony? Because if so that is pretty awesome; Lenny Bruce style.

[Elana]

[ QUOTE ]
Scaramanga said:
[ QUOTE ]
Elana said:
That's why I'd never get a tattoo written in a language I don't expressly understand the meaning of the characters. That said, my next tattoo is going to have writing in a foreign language (Hebrew) in it. However, although I can't speak Hebrew, I can read it. It's going to simply be my name, which translates to 'tree'. I've FINALLY figured out placement and content from a vague idea I've had for 5 years now. My name is 5 characters (aleph - ×?, lamma – ל, nuph – ×*, hay – ×”) with the vowels omitted or ×?ל×*×” (there would be a vowel under the lamma and nuph if I included them, but in Hebrew they're optional – ×?לַ×*ָה) and I plan to wrap it just above my ankle and join the first and final character with an image of the tree of life (http://www.bethelcraftgallery.com/photogallery/Round%20Tree%20of%20Life.jpg) (not necessarily that particular one).

[/ QUOTE ]
Please tell me you're getting this tattoo for irony? Because if so that is pretty awesome; Lenny Bruce style.

[/ QUOTE ]

The short answer would be 'yes'. The longer answer would be, 'I already have one tattoo so can't be buried in a Jewish cemetary, why not get another?' and the longest answer would be, 'It's a mixture of irony and symbolism. The irony being it's against Jewish law to get a tattoo and the symbolism being the Tree of Life and my name which literally means 'oak tree' in Hebrew.'

The Jewish Museum of Rock (http://www.jewsrock.org/), when up, has a photo gallery of Jews with Hebrew tattoos you might find amusing. I've been planning this one for years in one form or another, but apparently, I'm not the only Jew with a sense of irony and humor about it. /images/graemlins/happy.gif