DVD, HD, or Bluray? [Archive]

Iridium

09-27-2005, 11:56 AM

I've been thinking a lot about this myself as of late, and honestly I think the format war and the movie studios may be turning this HD dream into a pipe dream:

1. The format war will lead to many wary consumers just not buying anything because they may have to rebuy if the other format wins.

2. Overly aggressive DRM and copy-protection methods make the HD technologies look less and less appealing:

<ul type="square"> Devices that silently update and can lock out some discs have no place in my system.
Devices that can commit suicide have no place in my system.
Devices that don't support full HD resolution component output have no place in my system.
Devices that have silly artificial restrictions like region coding that uphold obsolete business models have no place in my system.
Devices that have the potential to "phone home" have no place in my system. (Note: I am aware that much of the publicity about this part of the spec has been overblown.)
[/list]
Really, do I want to spend such money on huge DRM systems for the living room? No thank you!

I believe the only sure bet for the next few years is DVD, so I don't plan on buying Blu Ray or HD-DVD equipment any time soon. If they had actually compromised and come up with a single HD format, it might have been different. But no, the stupid selfish companies are going to ruin it for everyone.

Johnny

09-27-2005, 01:12 PM

Well, the PS3 is gonna be Blue Ray so I guess I'll be supporting that but, like you said, there's no way I'm rushing out to buy a Blu Ray/HD DVD player anytime soon and there's also no way I'm getting pulled into the "rebuy everything for a better picture" thing.

kanechan

09-27-2005, 01:15 PM

According to an article on AudioVideo Revolution (http://www.avrev.com/) , the DVD Forum has already approved of HD-DVD. Looks like Blu-Ray might be left out in the cold after all. Check out the article for more on this development.

tenton

09-27-2005, 01:23 PM

JeffDM

09-27-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Kanechan said:
According to an article on AudioVideo Revolution (http://www.avrev.com/) , the DVD Forum has already approved of HD-DVD. Looks like Blu-Ray might be left out in the cold after all. Check out the article for more on this development.

[/ QUOTE ]

What they approved was an updated version of the standard. The DVD Forum had gone with what is now called HD-DVD about a year ago.

I wouldn't call Blu-Ray out just yet, Last time HP, Sony and some others split, they basically made the DVD plus "+" recordable standard and it is now the choice, over the DVD Forum's official dash "-" standard. Plus isn't in the DVD spec that I'm aware.

raistlinmajere

09-27-2005, 02:35 PM

Blu-Ray, definitely. The industry is giving too much support to a technology that has yet to get even a single vote. Of course, they don't really care about what we want, anyway.

quenelf

09-27-2005, 05:09 PM

I chose Blu-ray, but in reality it's unlikely that I will buy a new drive for several years; apart from anything else my main computer which I normally use to watch DVDs is an un-upgradable McMini /images/graemlins/happy.gif I could get one for my PC though, it might be useful for backup... then again, the PC isn't much more powerful than the McMini so it might not be good enough to decode HD video.

Obviously, given that likely delay, what I'll actually end up getting is whatever wins the format war. But I don't have any luddite reasons for sticking with DVD alone; backwards compatibility means that you might as well start buying new shows on a new format, and you don't have to re-buy old stuff (I have no intention of re-buying anything I've already seen).

--quen

TAS

09-27-2005, 06:19 PM

I might buy a Bluray burner for my computer once the price drops below $300 for the drive and media is in the same range as DVD in $/Mb.
I don't think I'll be playing movies on my computer, I don't think it would support all the DRM they seem to want (not that I want that crap on my system anyway).

If they don't wake up and start thinking about what the customer wants in a player (not holding my breath) I don't see myself buying an HD player anytime soon.

nhyone

09-27-2005, 06:50 PM

It may not mean much even if HD-DVD wins out in the near time. Consumers may be turned off for three reasons: (a) lack of titles, (b) too much DRM, (c) too little improvement over DVD.

By the time (a) gets resolved, it's time for Blu-ray or its successor..

TAS

09-27-2005, 07:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
nhyone said:
It may not mean much even if HD-DVD wins out in the near time. Consumers may be turned off for three reasons: (a) lack of titles, (b) too much DRM, (c) too little improvement over DVD.

By the time (a) gets resolved, it's time for Blu-ray or its successor..

[/ QUOTE ]

The release of HD-DVD has been delayed, there will not be much difference in the release dates unless we have more delays. Since they still seem to be fighting over what DRM crap is going to end up in the final products there could be more delays...

Skywise

09-27-2005, 07:37 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TAS said:
The release of HD-DVD has been delayed, there will not be much difference in the release dates unless we have more delays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since AACS still isn't finalized that's a definite to the more delays part. My only worry at this point is that it might delay the PS3 launch as well.

Nyanyaan

09-27-2005, 10:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Skywise said:
[ QUOTE ]
TAS said:
The release of HD-DVD has been delayed, there will not be much difference in the release dates unless we have more delays.

[/ QUOTE ]

Since AACS still isn't finalized that's a definite to the more delays part. My only worry at this point is that it might delay the PS3 launch as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the Q1 date Sony has been lately hinting at has been way too optimistic. Was talking to a friend at one of the local game stores, word he was getting was that the blue-ray drive cost issues might be becoming an issue.

Yes, there have been quiet hints of this with even Sony reps calling the PS3 expensive. But, it can only be so 'expensive' before it becomes a cutting into sales/driving customers to the competition issue.

Chiyosuke

09-28-2005, 03:46 AM

*chants in a militaristic voice*

BLU-RAAAAAAAAY. Well, when the time comes for that.

Gersen

09-28-2005, 04:33 AM

[ QUOTE ]
DeadlyMessiah said:
Which will you support in the upcoming year(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]

The first one being hacked /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Gersen

quenelf

09-28-2005, 07:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Nyanyaan said:
Yes, there have been quiet hints of this with even Sony reps calling the PS3 expensive. But, it can only be so 'expensive' before it becomes a cutting into sales/driving customers to the competition issue.

[/ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, releasing it early as 'ridiculously expensive' (and needing a firmware upgrade before it can play Blu-ray movies) might make it seem like you're getting a better deal when a few months later they reduce the price to 'expensive' (and it plays movies too). /images/graemlins/happy.gif

--quen

callman

09-28-2005, 06:20 PM

For now, I don't really care which format wins. Both capable of containing HD video in almost the same quality.

Ultimately, I think it's too early even for one HD format, not to speak of two. And in a couple of years, it will be too late. A few more megabits of network bandwidth, and we'll be watching pristine HD video online. Serious collectors will buy their favourites on physical discs for the packaging and exclusive content (for the price of gold of course). Take a look at the music market. Audio CD is slowly passing away, DVD Audio and SACD can't take off at all, while portable players and online music stores bloom (not to mention file sharing). Let's face it, that shiny disc slowly becomes big, inconvenient and vulnerable.

I believe what James Cameron described recenlty. Movies will be released in theatres(digital), online and on video at the same time, so people can choose where they want to watch it. Microsoft and Sony will figure out how buyers can copy their downloaded videos from their digital (and multi-room via wireless lan) media center onto a small, encrypted memory card, or over wifi to play in car or on portable console. Imagine how easily can a faulty video, audio or subtitle track be "replaced" online.

I only have about 300 DVDs in my growing collection, but I'm already starting to feel that they are taking up too much space. I'm ordering them from across the ocean, paying an awful lot of money for shipping, waiting for days or weeks, worrying over scratches, dents and thieves. None of these are an issue with online distribution.

Sounds too futuristic? Amazon offers downloadable content already, ADV is experimenting with BitTorrent, and Apple is working on an online movie store. The change is in the air.

My only fear is DRM, I want to buy my HD stuff from wherever I want, in the world. But I'm optimistic.

Njr Scrawl

09-29-2005, 11:19 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Gersen said:
[ QUOTE ]
DeadlyMessiah said:
Which will you support in the upcoming year(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]

The first one being hacked /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Gersen

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

For me, its DVD. Later, whichever allows hacking/modification to play imported discs. UK domestic releases are left behind by US ones, not just for anime but live action series & movies as well.

DeadlyMessiah

09-30-2005, 11:06 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
[ QUOTE ]
Gersen said:
[ QUOTE ]
DeadlyMessiah said:
Which will you support in the upcoming year(s)?

[/ QUOTE ]

The first one being hacked /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Gersen

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

For me, its DVD. Later, whichever allows hacking/modification to play imported discs. UK domestic releases are left behind by US ones, not just for anime but live action series & movies as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought they said the players would be region free? We all know region encoding is a failure, why pretend it's not?

Iridium

09-30-2005, 11:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DeadlyMessiah said:
I thought they said the players would be region free? We all know region encoding is a failure, why pretend it's not?

[/ QUOTE ]
While we know that region coding will not be a part of AACS, there haven't been clear-cut statements yet on this issue for the HD formats as a whole.

Njr Scrawl

10-02-2005, 03:44 PM

Might there not though be a more sophisticated licensing area protection?

That is why I'm concerned, "region" coding software is a failure, but the principle behind it may not be overlooked, & with the advances made in technology, what may be used could be less hackable or modifiable. Sure you could still buy the software, but if players are not able to/made to play it, that will slow down the importation of legit releases that affect home market sales (not such a problem in the US).

christianlf

10-02-2005, 06:52 PM

I'm pulling for BD, though I won't be an early adopter. I'll wait until the dust settles and the prices are down.

DVD will tide me over well enough.

TAS

10-02-2005, 11:27 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Might there not though be a more sophisticated licensing area protection?

That is why I'm concerned, "region" coding software is a failure, but the principle behind it may not be overlooked, & with the advances made in technology, what may be used could be less hackable or modifiable. Sure you could still buy the software, but if players are not able to/made to play it, that will slow down the importation of legit releases that affect home market sales (not such a problem in the US).

[/ QUOTE ]

My fear is that the players will not inforce region code (they will not look at the disk and say you can't play it) but the more advanced software on the disk will be used to the same effect. Sony/Toshiba... can say it's not my fault, it's all Hollywood's fault.

10-03-2005, 03:28 AM

[ QUOTE ]
TAS said:
My fear is that the players will not inforce region code (they will not look at the disk and say you can't play it) but the more advanced software on the disk will be used to the same effect. Sony/Toshiba... can say it's not my fault, it's all Hollywood's fault.

[/ QUOTE ]

In order for "the more advanced software on the disk" to try to enforce some kind of regions, it must be able to know where in the world it is when it is played. And it can only know that if the player tells it, i.e has some support for regions.

Unless they start to build GPS receivers into the disks themselves, of course. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

quenelf

10-03-2005, 07:41 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Thomas Bellman said:
In order for "the more advanced software on the disk" to try to enforce some kind of regions, it must be able to know where in the world it is when it is played. And it can only know that if the player tells it, i.e has some support for regions.

Unless they start to build GPS receivers into the disks themselves, of course. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You could probably, if you really wanted to screw people over, require an internet connection in order to view your disc. Then it would be possible to determine the region from the player's own IP address (using a look-up table), even if the player didn't include any explicit support for regions.

I can't imagine anyone would do this, but it's a bit more feasible than the disc-embedded GPS /images/graemlins/wink.gif

--quen

Skywise

10-03-2005, 10:22 AM

[ QUOTE ]
quen said:
You could probably, if you really wanted to screw people over, require an internet connection in order to view your disc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Already discussed:

http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreade...amp;o=&vc=1 (http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&Number=1128918&page=0&view=c ollapsed&sb=5&o=&vc=1)

Iridium

10-03-2005, 10:34 AM

[ QUOTE ]
quen said:
You could probably, if you really wanted to screw people over, require an internet connection in order to view your disc. Then it would be possible to determine the region from the player's own IP address (using a look-up table), even if the player didn't include any explicit support for regions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Come to think of it, this reminds me of the expand of features and plugins available to WWW browsers.

Many of those shiny new features basically served to annoy the user though advertisements: Flashing text. Text dancing across the status bar. Animated GIFs. Layers. Embedded Audio. Cookies. Frames. Popups. Shockwave. All of the former inside of popups... /images/graemlins/relief1.gif

If Blu-Ray does in fact become dominant, I wonder if all those advanced menuing capabilities running in JAVA and such will just be used to annoy the user with stupid advertisements, nags, clandestine marketing profiling, etc. Part of me years for video content menuing systems to be as simple and utilitarian as possible, as the show itself is the content, not the menu. Considering that the companies are stupid enough to allow another format war, they're probably stupid enough to let people be marketed out of existence as they have been with commercial movie theatres. Those damned marketers would advertise on the back of our eyelids if they thought they could get away with it.

Skywise

10-03-2005, 10:58 AM

iHD also allow the kind of use you're referring to, so it's not really something that would be limited to Blu-Ray.

quenelf

10-03-2005, 05:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Iridium said:
If Blu-Ray does in fact become dominant, I wonder if all those advanced menuing capabilities running in JAVA and such will just be used to annoy the user with stupid advertisements, nags, clandestine marketing profiling, etc. Part of me years for video content menuing systems to be as simple and utilitarian as possible, as the show itself is the content, not the menu.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I don't think the extra power (over the current DVD spec, which does already have a very basic programming language) is really intended just for ordinary menus. If you look at the absolutely moronic 'games' that have been included on some DVD releases, particularly things like Harry Potter; a more powerful programming language could allow for some games that (while presumably still trivial, we're not talking 3D graphics here) might not utterly suck.

I think the only likely prospect for abuse (bearing in mind that it's easy to include ads in current DVDs already) is with the Internet connection thing. While I don't really think it's likely that they'll make you have a connection just to play a film, I can certainly imagine them making you go through some annoying farting around to unlock extra content.

--quen

TAS

10-03-2005, 06:26 PM

[ QUOTE ]
quen said:
[ QUOTE ]
Thomas Bellman said:
In order for "the more advanced software on the disk" to try to enforce some kind of regions, it must be able to know where in the world it is when it is played. And it can only know that if the player tells it, i.e has some support for regions.

Unless they start to build GPS receivers into the disks themselves, of course. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

You could probably, if you really wanted to screw people over, require an internet connection in order to view your disc. Then it would be possible to determine the region from the player's own IP address (using a look-up table), even if the player didn't include any explicit support for regions.

I can't imagine anyone would do this, but it's a bit more feasible than the disc-embedded GPS /images/graemlins/wink.gif

--quen

[/ QUOTE ]

One other half baked way. The player have flash ram, any disk can request a block of ram, another disk that knows the key can read/update the block.

The first disk will say somthing like "this disk is licenced for region 1 only, if you continue you will not be able to play any disks from other regions, click OK to agree..." and it creates a region 1 entry in flash ram.

When you put in a region 2 disk from the same studio (that knows the key) it will read the flash ram block and tell you to piss off.