Tricked by Toshiba - Am I stuck with an HDTV lemon?

[Onions]

I recently bought a Toshiba HDTV (model number 26HF85) and found out it was actually made by Orion.

I had bought this TV a lot because of the Toshiba name, and how well my last Toshiba TV performed. However, after buying it I came to find out that most of their HDTVs are not made by them (although they say they are and carry their name) but are instead made by Orion - which is a cheaper no-name brand.

I looked into this because my TV was already acting up right out of the box. And what I come to find out is a lot of other people had been tricked into buying this so called "Toshiba" made HDTV and other models of theirs.

My problems are faint (sometimes more visible) lines about an inch apart moving from top to bottom of the screen constantly, on every input. Flickering at the top and bottom of the screen now (mainly visible on DVDs). Unatural glowing on the sides (mainly when using component inputs). And "Stable Sound" not reacting quick enough - thus causing unatural variances in sound when using it (which I used and liked alot on my old TV).

All of this within 2 weeks of having it, so I'm pretty worried/freaked out/angered because of all of this. I also think that Toshiba should reconcile these problems, but I'm having problems getting through to people that can actually do something about it.

First I called their support, where a woman just simply had nothing to say the whole time, but "sorry".
Then, after e-mailing them a very detailed e-mail to their customer support I get an e-mail simply saying "Toshiba TVs are made by Toshiba"... I don't know if they aren't telling their CS people jack or if they are still trying to cover up/lie about their TVs not actually being made by them.

All of this is really ticking me off and I don't know what to do. My next step is probably going to a local dealer of theirs (there's two near me) and trying to see if they've got more pull/connections.

Isn't all of this a very vagrant act of mis-representation? I had bought this TV thinking this was made by the people who claim to have made it - yet was givin what many say (and through experience) is an infirior product made by someone I've never heard of.

Would I not have a case if I took this to the Better Business Bureau? Because that's what I'm thinking of doing next if they don't either A. Give my money back (which I'm going for more so now after all this crap) or B. Supply me with an actual Toshiba made HDTV that I thought I'd be getting (which I hear is in existance - although few).

Any help or prior experiences from ones in such situations is much appreciated.

Thanks.

[fractured78]

Return it to vendor. You usually have 30 days. If the TV is made by Orion that means nothing. Rebadging by companies is a very old practice. You might know it by its more common name: outsourcing. It's neither misleading nor misrepresentation. Reporting it to the BBB will get you nothing more than a smile and a pat on the head.

Just goes to show, though, that you should never buy based on brand name alone. Hopefully you'll be able to return it, but there's not much else open to you.

[Onions]

[ QUOTE ]
fractured78 said:
Return it to vendor. You usually have 30 days. If the TV is made by Orion that means nothing. Rebadging by companies is a very old practice. You might know it by its more common name: outsourcing. It's neither misleading nor misrepresentation. Reporting it to the BBB will get you nothing more than a smile and a pat on the head.

Just goes to show, though, that you should never buy based on brand name alone. Hopefully you'll be able to return it, but there's not much else open to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't return it - only if broken, and if I returned it because of that I'd just get another Orion (which is crap). And on the site I bought it from, which I'm sure many of other sites have, it says that they are not liable for any claims or misrepresentation a company gives regarding their product, and any problems with this should be taken up with the product's maker.

Also, the companies I have bought from in the past and am considering now make the products themselves (for the most part), but when a whole TV is totally made by a lesser company, just for saving money - this should be made known. Either by out right saying it, or making a clear distinction between quality (such as a title for that certain line).

So in other words I expect my money back (at this point), and this does not fall onto the vendor but the supplier that mislead both the vendor and consumer.

On a side note, I got another e-mail back from Toshiba after e-mailing them again. They just suggested calling their usual CS phone line though. So I'll either e-mail then back or have to get nasty over the phone (as it seems I was too nice last time).

[jlazar]

Why don't you concider it broken? The video and audio sound broken to me. Who made the TV is immaterial if there problems with the audio and video.

Let them replace it with another unit. If it has the same problem, insist on a refund.

If you paid by credit card, you can contest the charges with your CC company if they refuse to replace the first one and reefuse to refund if the second has the same or other problem.

[Onions]

[ QUOTE ]
Jim Lazar said:
Why don't you concider it broken? The video and audio sound broken to me. Who made the TV is immaterial if there problems with the audio and video.

Let them replace it with another unit. If it has the same problem, insist on a refund.

If you paid by credit card, you can contest the charges with your CC company if they refuse to replace the first one and reefuse to refund if the second has the same or other problem.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll look into it more I suppose. But I don't see anything actually resolving this through them. Or it'll either cost me more money or time doing so (restocking fees, shipping time and charges).

I also feel it only right for Toshiba to take care of it since it's their lying that has caused all this trouble in the first place.

[Iridium]

[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
I also feel it only right for Toshiba to take care of it since it's their lying that has caused all this trouble in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]
Selling rebadged stuff under a famous name is extremely common, both in home theatre and computer parts.

[Ty]

Have you made any attempt to calibrate using a disc like digital video essentials? This "glowing" you describe could be excessive phosphor blooming caused by overdriving the contrast control. The limiter could be adding to the trouble too.

The "lines" sound like the vertical banding issues lots of people report with CRT HD sets of various brands. It's a hit or miss thing. If you cannot see it at your normal viewing distance then I wouldn't worry about it. Pressing your nose against the glass you're bound to see all kinds of things wrong with a CRT. Some goes for dead pixels on LCDs. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

On the Orion thing, Iridium is right. Many major brands outsource the components and assembly of some of their product lines. Toshiba is large R&D company that also wants to maintain a full consumer product lineup, so naturally they're going farm out their lower priority products. Sony, for example, does not make any of their own LCD or plasma sets. They are all rebadge efforts. This is common in the industry. All the CRT tubes in the world are now coming from only a few sources. Changes are pretty big that your tube is either from Philips or Thompson (they're bowing out of this business too now).

[Skywise]

[ QUOTE ]
Iridium said:
[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
I also feel it only right for Toshiba to take care of it since it's their lying that has caused all this trouble in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]
Selling rebadged stuff under a famous name is extremely common, both in home theatre and computer parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

The other way round also holds, as sometimes a name brand company will sell off excess stock to a less known company which then rebadges it and sells it cheaper. Possibly also using somewhat cheaper replacement parts for part of the gear.

[Onions]

[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
The "lines" sound like the vertical banding issues lots of people report with CRT HD sets of various brands. It's a hit or miss thing. If you cannot see it at your normal viewing distance then I wouldn't worry about it. Pressing your nose against the glass you're bound to see all kinds of things wrong with a CRT. Some goes for dead pixels on LCDs. /images/graemlins/happy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I can see the lines from any point in the room. It's more evident on certain colors though (and the luminocity I think).

This is my biggest complaint I'd say - oh, and the flickering at the bottom and top of the screen (which seems the most evident during DVD watching).
Is this an easy fix? Either way I'm still shooting for my money back or possibly an actual Toshiba TV. Because in the long run they do last longer (too many people complaining of problems right off the bat with these Orions).

[Elana]

[ QUOTE ]
Iridium said:
[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
I also feel it only right for Toshiba to take care of it since it's their lying that has caused all this trouble in the first place.

[/ QUOTE ]
Selling rebadged stuff under a famous name is extremely common, both in home theatre and computer parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

And automobiles /images/graemlins/happy.gif

*remembering her Chevy Nova/Toyota Corolla*

[Onions]

I've called some places this morning - the local Toshiba Service Centers, the place I bought it from - and it looks like I'm probably stuck with it. Or, I'll probably have to lose some money by just selling it on eBay.

The place I bought it from would have taken it back for credit (although, the TV I want now at their place isn't really a deal - so I'd be losing money there anyhow) but any returns of Toshiba TVs have to have the box. And since I've had the TV a little while, and no place to put the box, It's been thrown away.

The qualified Service Centers turn out to have no more of a pull with Toshiba than a customer, and can do nothing for me in terms of getting through to Toshiba - they also can't get me a box for my TV either...

Only thing left is to call Toshiba (again) hoping I can get in touch with someone that can actually do something.

So, the only thing I can think of asking about now is; what's a good price to start my TV at? It's MSRP is $600.00, although I paid $500.00.
And here's what they are selling for on eBay (although new... which mine is sort of anyhow).

--link snipped by mod. Unfortunately e-bay links (to anything) outside the e-bay forum isn't allowed. People can easily enough search ebay for the TV on their own though.--

Also, what do you think the shipping charge would be? Taking in the fact that I do not have a box on-hand to ship it in either. Would $80.00 - $100.00 cover it?

[Ty]

You never mentioned where you bought it and why they won't let you return it? Was it online? There isn't a B&M store left that won't let you return something if you force the issue. Otherwise play the warranty service card with Toshiba.

[Onions]

[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
You never mentioned where you bought it and why they won't let you return it? Was it online? There isn't a B&M store left that won't let you return something if you force the issue. Otherwise play the warranty service card with Toshiba.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I bought it online, from a store called PCconnection.com.

And I'll probably have it looked at by use of the warrenty, but I still do not want it - seeing as it is now it's nothing but trouble, and many others are in the same boat. So I'm wanting to unload it asap.

[Ty]

Got a Costco membership? /images/graemlins/devil.gif ......j/k.

[Onions]

[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
Got a Costco membership? /images/graemlins/devil.gif ......j/k.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard a lot about this Costco place from the message boards that I first heard that my TV was an Orion.

Are they pretty good? I'm thinking of going for a Sharp Aquos (model LC26DA5U - would like the LC26D5U, but just a bit too expensive) at a place called BestBuyPlasma.com - which got a lot of good reviews (the store) at pricegrabber.com.

The Sharp Aquos is what I wanted to begin with, but was just too much it seemed. But now I'm willing to go for it. It also got great feedback (all models) from that other Audio Video forum I keep talking about, and seeing them in stores is what really got me liking them in the first place (It's the best looking picture I've ever seen really, besides some very expensive Pioneer TVs).

[Iridium]

[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
Are they pretty good? I'm thinking of going for a Sharp Aquos (model LC26DA5U - would like the LC26D5U, but just a bit too expensive) at a place called BestBuyPlasma.com - which got a lot of good reviews (the store) at pricegrabber.com.

[/ QUOTE ]
My friend has an Aquos line LCD set (not sure which one) and both he and I are very impressed with the performance.

[Ty]

I was joking about Costco in the sense of their infamous "no questions asked" return policy that often gets abused in ways such as this. They're a good place to buy from what I've heard though mostly for that peace of mind.

The Sharp is a fine choice in LCD.... I'd also recommend the new Sony Bravia V26XBR1 as well. If you wach carefully you can find special Costco model versions of the Aquos tvs that strip a few of the luxury features in exchange for a much nicer price.

If you want to get into something for slightly less money that should still be a good bet, keep an eye out for the Westinghouse LTV-27w6, a 27" using Chi Mei Opto's newest generation LCD panel. It should be coming out this month or next.

I'll warn you that the LCD market is not for the picky. There are no "perfect" LCD tvs right now even though some are quite good. If you go looking for things wrong or things you don't like you'll likely find some. /images/graemlins/happy.gif Trust your eyes on basics such as color accuracy and how well it can suppress noise without softening the image too much; and then just buy it and forget about it.

Make sure you calibrate the thing properly though with Digital Video Essentials. Heck, you can rent it from Netflix now I hear even.

[waltchan]

[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
Sony, for example, does not make any of their own LCD or plasma sets.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, Sony has always made their own LCD and plasma TVs. Sony buys the panel screens from Samsung, but Sony makes the electronic components.

[waltchan]

[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:Then, after e-mailing them a very detailed e-mail to their customer support I get an e-mail simply saying "Toshiba TVs are made by Toshiba"... I don't know if they aren't telling their CS people jack or if they are still trying to cover up/lie about their TVs not actually being made by them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Consumers are not supposed to know about this, so Toshiba can lie if they want to.

[Digital Boy]

People, people, you should ONLY buy electronic from Independant Adio/Video stores. They will actually sell you something good and look after you.

[Elana]

[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
Got a Costco membership? /images/graemlins/devil.gif ......j/k.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard a lot about this Costco place from the message boards that I first heard that my TV was an Orion.


[/ QUOTE ]

CostCo = Sam's Club = BJ's

They're warehouse clubs. Sam's Club is owned by Wal-mart.

As mentioned above, CostCo has a no questions asked return policy, which people are taking advantage of to return TVs purchased in the same fashion you've bought yours.

I'm a member of CostCo, but because I like to buy certain items in bulk. I've also found the money I save on printer paper and ink for my printer alone is often enough to pay for the $45 membership fee. I usually get my 'paper products' there. Paper products being paper towels, toilet paper, etc. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[Onions]

[ QUOTE ]
waltchan said:
[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:Then, after e-mailing them a very detailed e-mail to their customer support I get an e-mail simply saying "Toshiba TVs are made by Toshiba"... I don't know if they aren't telling their CS people jack or if they are still trying to cover up/lie about their TVs not actually being made by them.

[/ QUOTE ]
Consumers are not supposed to know about this, so Toshiba can lie if they want to.

[/ QUOTE ]

...ehh... If you're buying something then you should know what your buying... so that's no excuse.

By no means is this an uncommon thing in the business world (people are always lying) but it's always a bad thing and shouldn't be done.

So in other words any legit business should make clear of their products.

[Ty]

[ QUOTE ]
waltchan said:
[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
Sony, for example, does not make any of their own LCD or plasma sets.

[/ QUOTE ]
No, Sony has always made their own LCD and plasma TVs. Sony buys the panel screens from Samsung, but Sony makes the electronic components.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, yes, if I have to explicitly imply that then fine. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif Yeah they manufacture their own, but the glass is 90% of the tv, especially now with the progress that's been made in the scaling electronics. Their stuff can more or less be considered Samsung rebadges IMO. You are correct though. I sometimes forget where I'm talking about this stuff...... on AVSForum there's alot of assumed stuff that never gets said. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ChibiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
You never mentioned where you bought it and why they won't let you return it? Was it online? There isn't a B&M store left that won't let you return something if you force the issue. Otherwise play the warranty service card with Toshiba.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I bought it online, from a store called PCconnection.com.

And I'll probably have it looked at by use of the warrenty, but I still do not want it - seeing as it is now it's nothing but trouble, and many others are in the same boat. So I'm wanting to unload it asap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to throw this off-topic, but how were your dealings with PCConnection.com? I've been considering ordering a Panasonic CRT through them for a while now and was wondering how the ordering/shipping and everything went? I mean I can go by the reviews I see online, but I'd trust a real person over some anonymous thing on pricegrabber.

[Elana]

[ QUOTE ]
ChibiShin said:
[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
You never mentioned where you bought it and why they won't let you return it? Was it online? There isn't a B&M store left that won't let you return something if you force the issue. Otherwise play the warranty service card with Toshiba.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I bought it online, from a store called PCconnection.com.

And I'll probably have it looked at by use of the warrenty, but I still do not want it - seeing as it is now it's nothing but trouble, and many others are in the same boat. So I'm wanting to unload it asap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to throw this off-topic, but how were your dealings with PCConnection.com? I've been considering ordering a Panasonic CRT through them for a while now and was wondering how the ordering/shipping and everything went? I mean I can go by the reviews I see online, but I'd trust a real person over some anonymous thing on pricegrabber.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've used them before, mostly for refurbished computer parts and not in awhile, but I've found them to be just fine.

[Onions]

[ QUOTE ]
ChibiShin said:
[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
You never mentioned where you bought it and why they won't let you return it? Was it online? There isn't a B&M store left that won't let you return something if you force the issue. Otherwise play the warranty service card with Toshiba.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I bought it online, from a store called PCconnection.com.

And I'll probably have it looked at by use of the warrenty, but I still do not want it - seeing as it is now it's nothing but trouble, and many others are in the same boat. So I'm wanting to unload it asap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to throw this off-topic, but how were your dealings with PCConnection.com? I've been considering ordering a Panasonic CRT through them for a while now and was wondering how the ordering/shipping and everything went? I mean I can go by the reviews I see online, but I'd trust a real person over some anonymous thing on pricegrabber.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were fine from my experience. I can't blame them about Toshiba's error, and they were even willing to take back my TV for credit at their store - but couldn't as Toshiba requires a box for returns they said (and that's something I threw out).

I also got through to their customer service easily and quickly. All seemed nice that I had gotten too.

And they also shipped my TV off quick and I got it quick too (2 days!), even though I chose the lowest shipping.
This depends on your area though, but it was a lot quicker than I thought it'd be.

The only thing was that they did not give me a tracking number right off. I had to call and ask their support for it. I don't know if the automated response e-mails messed up, or if they never include this and you must call - but it was easy enough to get.

All in all I'd do business with them again, although currently I can find the TV I want now cheaper somewheres else.

[waltchan]

So, did you get your refund back?

[ChibiShin]

[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
[ QUOTE ]
ChibiShin said:
[ QUOTE ]
Onions said:
[ QUOTE ]
Xcalibur said:
You never mentioned where you bought it and why they won't let you return it? Was it online? There isn't a B&M store left that won't let you return something if you force the issue. Otherwise play the warranty service card with Toshiba.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I bought it online, from a store called PCconnection.com.

And I'll probably have it looked at by use of the warrenty, but I still do not want it - seeing as it is now it's nothing but trouble, and many others are in the same boat. So I'm wanting to unload it asap.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to throw this off-topic, but how were your dealings with PCConnection.com? I've been considering ordering a Panasonic CRT through them for a while now and was wondering how the ordering/shipping and everything went? I mean I can go by the reviews I see online, but I'd trust a real person over some anonymous thing on pricegrabber.

[/ QUOTE ]

They were fine from my experience. I can't blame them about Toshiba's error, and they were even willing to take back my TV for credit at their store - but couldn't as Toshiba requires a box for returns they said (and that's something I threw out).

I also got through to their customer service easily and quickly. All seemed nice that I had gotten too.

And they also shipped my TV off quick and I got it quick too (2 days!), even though I chose the lowest shipping.
This depends on your area though, but it was a lot quicker than I thought it'd be.

The only thing was that they did not give me a tracking number right off. I had to call and ask their support for it. I don't know if the automated response e-mails messed up, or if they never include this and you must call - but it was easy enough to get.

All in all I'd do business with them again, although currently I can find the TV I want now cheaper somewheres else.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response, I think I waited too long to get in on that TV because before it had free shipping, now it doesn't :/ And I don't feel like paying over $100 for ground shipping. I might try and find it locally instead.

Elana: Thanks as well, saw yours earlier but didn't have time to respond as I was heading out to work.

[Onions]

[ QUOTE ]
waltchan said:
So, did you get your refund back?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, I have to have the box to be able to refund it to Toshiba (and as I said, that's been thrown away).

But (I can't remember if I said this in another post) all they give is credit (that is something to think about), atleast for open items, and since the TV I'm wanting now is more expensive at their store than where I intend on buying it, I'd come out about paying the same or more for my new TV than if I go sell it on eBay and buy it at another store.