Where did all the substance go?

[Lego]

While I'm mainly commenting on some of the shows from last season, and the majority of new shows this season, I figured that I would make the thread. I know that everyone likes different shows/genres. I'm not going after what people watch or like. I'm looking at the current slate of shows that have aired in the past two to three seasons.

It seems more and more we're getting a lot of "comedic/harem" or "ecchi" shows. I don't have a problem with something like a Shuffle, which had a nice dramatic undertone in it. Or even something like Mai Otome, which while appearing "fanservicy" at times, has a serious plot in it like Hime did(through the second half). Don't get me wrong though, I'm a fan of most levels of ecchi and panty shots.

Hell, even something like FMP TSR had a shot or two in it. I'm not going to disown a show because of that. But it just seems in general more and more of these shows, along with "moe" shows have been coming out. I'm not worried about it either way(I'll watch whatever), but I guess I'm looking for something with more "depth" to it like the upcoming Ergo Proxy.

Just for fun, I took a look at the shows that aired in the last two or three seasons. We've had many "novel/H game" series, pure fanservice series like "Koi Koi" and other shows that have just aired that seem to be content with showing fanservice rather then a story.

Again, I know that everyone likes different things. I'm not saying that every show should be about a certain subject or made a certain way. That would be stupid and give us less variety. I'm just "interested" in the amount of recent H/Novel game and "moe" shows that seem to be coming out lately. Most of the newer shows this season fit this mold. Excluding something like Rescue Wings, Fate/stay night and Nerima Daikon Brothers.

While this isn't really a complaint post, I'm curious to know what other people think about the last couple seasons(including this one so far).

[Rhodes]

umm you do know fate/stay night is based on a "game" right... bish game if i am not mistaken.

as for substance... dcss and shuffle had loads of substance. if you paid attention and caught onto the theme even learn a lesson as well.

i think angel heart would of been up your alley.

folks make shows that sell and can earn $, it is a business. things change and cycles thru.

I think it's too soon to use Ergo Proxy as the model for anime with depth. Yes, it looks nice. But so does Spriggan. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif It probably will be a decent anime, but my point is that you should probably wait to praise it until *after* it airs. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Fencedude]

Rose colored glasses.

[Lego]

[ QUOTE ]
Rhodes said:
umm you do know fate/stay night is based on a "game" right... bish game if i am not mistaken.

as for substance... dcss and shuffle had loads of substance. if you paid attention and caught onto the theme even learn a lesson as well.

i think angel heart would of been up your alley.

folks make shows that sell and can earn $, it is a business. things change and cycles thru.

[/ QUOTE ]

I excluded Fate from the list because it(so far) doesn't have a HUGE ammount of fanservice. Of course I knew that it was based off a game heh(I'm a Type Moon fanboy). I mentioned that Shuffle had a great deal of substance at times, and have a nie undert tone to it. Angel Heart, if I'm not mistaken, was the show based in the City Hunter universe right?

I realize that a show like Emma, which was great will always loose over a show like like DCSS and Shuffle due to the fanservice/pretty girl aspect. But it's interesting sometimes to step back and look at the types of shows coming out.

[Lego]

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
Rose colored glasses.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, it may sound like I'm judging recent shows by the way they look, rather then their stories or plots. I will concede that fact to you Fence. But it seems like every where you look it's either a show where you have girls screaming "oni-chaaaaan!" or a show where it's fanservice first, then plot later.

Although like I've mentioned befoe, when a harem/novel series gets something right, like a Shuffle, it can be engaging. I'm not "downing" shows like Shuffle and others.

[Kellory]

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
Rose colored glasses.

[/ QUOTE ]

As much as I hate to agree with Fencedude, I think he's right here.

This is anime. Its entertainment. Generally for a younger crowd. There has never been a lot of substance in any given year. There is always some, but not a huge amount. Its just in the past we've only gotten the best here, and not a bunch of everything.

Heck, this year we have Planetes. You dont get more in the way of substance than that.

But there are other examples. Just not that many. Perhaps a handful every year. Along with the harem and maid shows, the fighting shows, and the bishies.

[Lego]

True Kellroy, and I can see where Fence is coming from. I respect his opinion and yours. I realize that it's entertainment usually aimed at teenage males. I guess it may be because I find myself on the older side of those teenage years. I find nothing wrong with a fanservice filled show. I'll watch something like that, and treat it as that.

I'm not trying to compare something like Love Hina to Shindler's List substance wise. I was just a little curious about the recent "slew" of titles that seem to be leaning in one direction. It may look like I'm demanding shows be a Planetes every time. I'm not. I reconize that each show is different and etc.

[treatment]

[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:


Heck, this year we have Planetes. You dont get more in the way of substance than that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you do. Gits-SAC/2ndGig, ScraPrin, Genshiken for the R1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

There's also Honey&Clover and Air in the unlicensed-category.

[Fencedude]

[ QUOTE ]
Lego said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
Rose colored glasses.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, it may sound like I'm judging recent shows by the way they look, rather then their stories or plots. I will concede that fact to you Fence. But it seems like every where you look it's either a show where you have girls screaming "oni-chaaaaan!" or a show where it's fanservice first, then plot later.

Although like I've mentioned befoe, when a harem/novel series gets something right, like a Shuffle, it can be engaging. I'm not "downing" shows like Shuffle and others.

[/ QUOTE ]

I personally don't see any major change in the amount of service to plot in any given year.

Here's a question, how many new in Japan shows have you watched this year compared to say...the past two years?

[Lego]

[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question, how many new in Japan shows have you watched this year compared to say...the past two years?


[/ QUOTE ]

That is a interesting question Fence. That was the reason I was talking about seasons and not years. When you use years, you cover a huge ammount of time. Hell in 2005 we had things like Emma, Kamichu, Planetes and other great, great shows. I want to go in a different direction with your question thought Fence.

How many shows have I(or anyone) seen in the past two years compared to the last "couple" years. It maybe be the reason why this is "new" to me is that we have better access to things in Japan. I mean when things like Tenchi Universe or Trigun were just getting released onto DVD, you didn't have to wide range of places to go as we did now.

Today you can see pictures of a episode as it airs. Or you can check a blog where someone can put up images of a episode that just aired. I think it's probably a by product of people having different tastes in shows. Or the fact that we have been getting a lot of H/novel game shows lately. So you and Kellroy have a good point.

[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:


Heck, this year we have Planetes. You dont get more in the way of substance than that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you do. Gits-SAC/2ndGig, ScraPrin, Genshiken for the R1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

There's also Honey&Clover and Air in the unlicensed-category.

[/ QUOTE ]

GITS maybe, but I wouldn't say ScraPin or Genshikin have more substance than Planetes. And Air doesn't even have as much, imo.

[Fencedude]

[ QUOTE ]
Lego said:
[ QUOTE ]
Here's a question, how many new in Japan shows have you watched this year compared to say...the past two years?


[/ QUOTE ]

That is a interesting question Fence. That was the reason I was talking about seasons and not years. When you use years, you cover a huge ammount of time. Hell in 2005 we had things like Emma, Kamichu, Planetes and other great, great shows. I want to go in a different direction with your question thought Fence.

How many shows have I(or anyone) seen in the past two years compared to the last "couple" years. It maybe be the reason why this is "new" to me is that we have better access to things in Japan. I mean when things like Tenchi Universe or Trigun were just getting released onto DVD, you didn't have to wide range of places to go as we did now.

Today you can see pictures of a episode as it airs. So you and Kellroy have a good point.

[/ QUOTE ]

The problem with going by "seasons" is that in general, the only two seasons that are worth anything are Fall and Spring. Winter and Summer tend to have fewer shows that are really itneresting. Yes there are exceptions, but I've noticed for the past three years (2003~2005) the majority of shows I end up really enjoying either started in April or October.

[Fencedude]

[ QUOTE ]
mifuneral said:
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treatment said:
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Kellory said:


Heck, this year we have Planetes. You dont get more in the way of substance than that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you do. Gits-SAC/2ndGig, ScraPrin, Genshiken for the R1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

There's also Honey&Clover and Air in the unlicensed-category.

[/ QUOTE ]

GITS maybe, but I wouldn't say ScraPin or Genshikin have more substance than Planetes. And Air doesn't even have as much, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Air is really stupendously over rated.

It has some really good ideas, and for its original format it really WAS a major departure from the norm, but its anime incarnation is far from perfect, and tends to feel very, very forced.

[Lego]

That could be it to Fence. This is one of the reasons why although my post was "flawed" in some areas(as others have said), I wanted to make the thread. It brings up a good discussion rather then just "no, you're wrong".

I've heard from many fans and friends that they usually consider the Fall and Spring seasons(as you mentioned) to house most of the "good" shows. As fanservice shows are more likely to hit around Summer or Winter.

[treatment]

[ QUOTE ]
mifuneral said:
[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:


Heck, this year we have Planetes. You dont get more in the way of substance than that.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, you do. Gits-SAC/2ndGig, ScraPrin, Genshiken for the R1. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

There's also Honey&Clover and Air in the unlicensed-category.

[/ QUOTE ]

GITS maybe, but I wouldn't say ScraPin or Genshikin have more substance than Planetes. And Air doesn't even have as much, imo.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know. I've seen all of them and I don't think I would even classify Planetes in the substance-shows alongside with SAC, ScraPrin, Genshiken, and Air.

Planetes was ok and a nice break from other shows, but it was just really boring and predictable to me. Maybe I just like an execution like Honey & Clover more for real-life themes.

To each his own, I guess.

[something]

[ QUOTE ]
Lego said:
While this isn't really a complaint post, I'm curious to know what other people think about the last couple seasons(including this one so far).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this thread comes up every single season, without fail, like clockwork =P I am not being remotely sarcastic either. Not one single season EVER goes by without worries that everything in turning to fanservice. It's probably been going on for years and years.

And yet, every season, I find awesome shows. I very much doubt this season will be any different, really. I've seen only two shows so far and neither were anything special, but I'm not really worried in the least.

[Dagger]

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
Lego said:
While this isn't really a complaint post, I'm curious to know what other people think about the last couple seasons(including this one so far).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this thread comes up every single season, without fail, like clockwork =P

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, that pretty much sums it up. In anime, as in every other form of entertainment, the vast majority of what comes out is crap. That hasn't changed at all over the years, even when you take trends (e.g. moe and all that's associated with it, if one wants to regard it as such) into consideration.

[Lego]

It seems to work out that way disarm. Although even though I'm a worrier(to put it midly heh), I'm not at that level to suggest that everything is turning into fanservice. I do realize, like you mentioned, that you get a few shows that turn into great ones and etc.

[treatment]

[ QUOTE ]
Dagger said:
[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
Lego said:
While this isn't really a complaint post, I'm curious to know what other people think about the last couple seasons(including this one so far).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this thread comes up every single season, without fail, like clockwork =P

[/ QUOTE ]
Yep, that pretty much sums it up. In anime, as in every other form of entertainment, the vast majority of what comes out is crap. That hasn't changed at all over the years, even when you take trends (e.g. moe and all that's associated with it, if one wants to regard it as such) into consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

Whichever anime fan-segment in Japan spends more on which shows and which merchandizing, gets more similar shows created for them. Simple capitalism. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[BluWacky]

You really do worry too much /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

And frankly, Rescue Wings and Nerima Daikon Brothers aren't good examples of shows with "substance"; Rescue Wings may be a drama with little fanservice, but it's pretty hackneyed (and nowhere near the level of Planetes in terms of direction or plotting), and Nerima Daikon is all about being stylish and zany; Ergo Proxy will probably be quite similar (except replace "zany" with "moody").

Yes, there's a lot of fanservice fluff around, probably more than ever; there's also more anime around than ever. Furthermore, as Fencedude has already noted, April and October are the big seasons for new anime. I know you've been following Hell Girl from October, but there's several shows with a great deal of substance from then still ongoing, with Mushishi and Noein immediately springing to mind, neither of which have any fanservice at all.

We all have different tastes, and find substance in different shows. Different shows appeal to different demographics, and I find there's generally quite a good mix; just because I don't like harem shows as a genre or bishoujo game adaptations (with a few exceptions) doesn't mean the shows are always awful, just not to my taste. Plenty of shows may have substance, but just not the kind of substance that appeals to you or me, and that's just one of those things I guess.

[michaelwb]

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
Lego said:
While this isn't really a complaint post, I'm curious to know what other people think about the last couple seasons(including this one so far).

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this thread comes up every single season, without fail, like clockwork =P I am not being remotely sarcastic either. Not one single season EVER goes by without worries that everything in turning to fanservice. It's probably been going on for years and years.


[/ QUOTE ]

Heck with that. I worry about having a steady supply of mindless, silly, funny, harem-esque, fanservice filled, eye-candy shows....

/images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[Jarred]

[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
Whichever anime fan-segment in Japan spends more on which shows and which merchandizing, gets more similar shows created for them. Simple capitalism. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
And seeing how the "moe" market is at 88.8 Billion Yen (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?discuss=6548), it's easy to see why there might be a shift in the types of shows that are coming out in the new seasons.

[Lego]

A good post Blu. I agree with you and have noted that in past responses. I'm not saying all harem or fanservice shows are horrible. I enjoy something like Shuffle, Tenchi, Love Hina and so on. I used Rescue Wings and Nermia as an example, because at the moment, they seem to be a couple shows that aren't pushing the fanservice angle.

I'm not worried about this one heh. It really isn't another "oh the noes, the sky is falling" thread. I wanted to talk/discuss about the recent surge of shows, be it if it were action, sci fi, or in this case moe and fanservice. Mushishi and Noein and two great examples. I encourage people to check out Mushishi. It has amazing visuals at times, and is a really good show.

I also understand that everyone isn't going to like the same thing. I'm not trying to force a Planetes or etc down someones throat. I can watch a "silly" show like the next guy /gal.

[Suwako Moriya]

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
Air is really stupendously over rated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree. While nice, Air does have a few major problems. One being that the story is highly unbalanced. I know each anime must have it's lead female and lead male, but it was like in Air, they introduced a decent cast. However quickly most of the cast was given their eviction notice for the lack of a better term. In all honesty Air also felt a bit rushed due to the 13 episode format. It should have been longer if you ask me. This

[Suwako Moriya]

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
And yet, every season, I find awesome shows. I very much doubt this season will be any different, really.

[/ QUOTE ]

While I can't say the same thing because I haven't really kept track of what season every show is from. I can say this much. Each year I manage to find shows that I enjoy. Which is all that matters in the long run. I'm sure I'll find shows to enjoy in 2006. And not just shows warpping up from 2005.

[leongsh]

There's always been more fluff than substance. Each and every year, the number of shows with substance have generally stayed constantly low while the number of fluff shows continue to increase due to there being a significantly larger market for those shows and merchandise for those shows. There's not much incentive for shows with substance as they tend to pull in lower number of viewers unless there's strong financial backing and/or sufficiently significant fan/demographic interest to put the show in a good broadcast spot.

[Nani]

I agree, there's only a few shows each year that have depth and substance. Even among those show there's a large amount of agreement. I wouldn't call Air deep at all, in fact I see it as bad storytelling wrapped in a pretty package. Planetes has all the hallmarks of old school novel based storytelling. While it's somewhat predictable it has a lot more thought behind each and every action.

Ultimately, though we blame commercial interest, the fact of the matter is that stories of substance take longer to do, are harder to put together, and demand a level of skill behind them that's far from being a commodity in any business. One of my personal favorites of last year, The Place Promised In Our Early Days, was only the second major work (third if you include His and Her Cat) of its creator. Each and every scene has a depth to it, from the angle of the camera to the composition of the colors. I simply can't imagine someone trying to put out quality like that on a weekly tv-format basis.

The limited quantity of deep stories should just make us all appreciate the good ones more. I've watched Place Promised several times, and each time I see something I missed before.

[treatment]

[ QUOTE ]
Mimi Masuko said:
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Fencedude said:
Air is really stupendously over rated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have to agree. While nice, Air does have a few major problems. One being that the story is highly unbalanced. I know each anime must have it's lead female and lead male, but it was like in Air, they introduced a decent cast. However quickly most of the cast was given their eviction notice for the lack of a better term. In all honesty Air also felt a bit rushed due to the 13 episode format. It should have been longer if you ask me. This

[/ QUOTE ]

lol! You just perfectly described To Heart ~Remember My Memories~ instead. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Suwako Moriya]

[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
lol! You just perfectly described To Heart ~Remember My Memories~ instead. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's certainly true that TH:RMM has the flaws I mentioned Air as having. Especially the imbalanced focus among the cast flaw. Heck there are probably several series with that flaw. It's a consant gripe I have. Of course maybe I'm just bitter because often my favorite isn't the lead female. Such as like in the case of TH:RMM. As much as I like Multi and Akari. My prefence is towards Serika and Lemmy.

[CrazyAsano]

I've seen this word used a zillion times and I get the context mostly but what exactly is moe?

[Suwako Moriya]

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
Rose colored glasses.

[/ QUOTE ]

That ultimately is the root of the problem. Also sometimes I feel 90% of all substance is either ignored or invented. Ie person A may watch one series and ignore all the substance in the show making it seem worse than it actually is. While person B may invent in his mind substance that's not there and make the show seem a lot worse than it actually is.

I'm actually fine with the substance of most shows I watch anyway. Truth be told, I'm not exactly a fan of series that try to be so uber deep. Don't get me wrong, being deep is good for a series. However when the series is more about looking deep than actually being enjoyable it's not worth it.

Of course it seems that for some substance means slapping in sayings from Shakespear, random symbolism especially of the religious kind, and characters who are incapble of holding a normal conversation. That they must always be philosophical mouth pieces.

[something]

[ QUOTE ]
CrazyAsano said:
I've seen this word used a zillion times and I get the context mostly but what exactly is moe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently there are whole articles/dissertations written trying to hash that out, so as long as you get the main concept of cute, usually young girls usually doing cute things, beyond that it's pretty subjective. I'm not even going to try to define it further, beyond a "I generally know it when I see it" kinda thing. I'm sure I'll get a lot of (confliciting) responses from people telling me that they know exactly what it is though =P Good for them if they think so, heh.

[CrazyAsano]

I see. Thank you.

[Ty]

[ QUOTE ]
CrazyAsano said:
I've seen this word used a zillion times and I get the context mostly but what exactly is moe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Put more shortly, I believe the implied Japanese meaning is "something which is longed for or obsessed over" meaning cute girls mostly in the context of Anime. Creating a character who is very moe means they can make more money selling merchandise to drooling otaku. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Jarred]

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
CrazyAsano said:
I've seen this word used a zillion times and I get the context mostly but what exactly is moe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently there are whole articles/dissertations written trying to hash that out...

[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could just go by the lexicon entry (http://animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=77) at ANN. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

If you want a longer, more in depth answer, check out the entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo%C3%A9) at my favorite online resource.

[Ebonsword]

[ QUOTE ]
Jarred said:
[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
CrazyAsano said:
I've seen this word used a zillion times and I get the context mostly but what exactly is moe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently there are whole articles/dissertations written trying to hash that out...

[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could just go by the lexicon entry (http://animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=77) at ANN. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

If you want a longer, more in depth answer, check out the entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo%C3%A9) at my favorite online resource.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, is "Sugar, A Little Snow Fairy" moe? If so, I'm confused. I thought Sugar was created for young girls to enjoy, but it sounds like the definition of moe is that it is targetted towards men?


Ebonsword -|---

[something]

[ QUOTE ]
Ebonsword said:
So, is "Sugar, A Little Snow Fairy" moe? If so, I'm confused. I thought Sugar was created for young girls to enjoy, but it sounds like the definition of moe is that it is targetted towards men?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently (or maybe it's just an urban myth I perprtuate by repeating this), Sugar aired late at night in Japan, and was aimed at men rather than women. Granted, that was in Japan, things are likely different here.

[Fencedude]

[ QUOTE ]
Ebonsword said:

So, is "Sugar, A Little Snow Fairy" moe? If so, I'm confused. I thought Sugar was created for young girls to enjoy, but it sounds like the definition of moe is that it is targetted towards men?


Ebonsword -|---

[/ QUOTE ]

moe is whatever you make of it.

One person's moe is not necessarily the same as someone else's.

Trying to get an exact definition, and classifying X series as moe while Y series is not, is fairly pointless.

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
Apparently (or maybe it's just an urban myth I perprtuate by repeating this), Sugar aired late at night in Japan, and was aimed at men rather than women.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not an urban myth. Quite true. When you start to see teenage males with huge plushies attached to their cellphones and wearing bright pink hair clips, you begin to understand...

(yes, this is normal heterosexual teenage male behaviour in Japan)

[something]

[ QUOTE ]
Orihara Kaoru said:
Not an urban myth. Quite true. When you start to see teenage males with huge plushies attached to their cellphones and wearing bright pink hair clips, you begin to understand...

(yes, this is normal heterosexual teenage male behaviour in Japan)

[/ QUOTE ]

Muahaha, I love Japan, in a respectually scared kind of way.

I also love how almost every time I get quoted, there's a typo I made, even though I read over all my posts at least twice. Argh! I just don't use AOD's spellcheck because it only checks a certain small amount of your post and then stops /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[Ty]

[ QUOTE ]
Ebonsword said:
[ QUOTE ]
Jarred said:
[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
CrazyAsano said:
I've seen this word used a zillion times and I get the context mostly but what exactly is moe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently there are whole articles/dissertations written trying to hash that out...

[/ QUOTE ]
Or you could just go by the lexicon entry (http://animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=77) at ANN. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

If you want a longer, more in depth answer, check out the entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo%C3%A9) at my favorite online resource.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, is "Sugar, A Little Snow Fairy" moe? If so, I'm confused. I thought Sugar was created for young girls to enjoy, but it sounds like the definition of moe is that it is targetted towards men?


Ebonsword -|---

[/ QUOTE ]

Snow Fairy Sugar is high fructose corn syrup for your eyes, in healthy doses at that. /images/graemlins/wink.gif My rule of thumb is: if it makes you drool or maxes out your "otaku excitement meter" it's moe. /images/graemlins/happy.gif