What exactly is "moe"?

[Njr Scrawl]

Read about "moe" titles, but what exactly are they/have they to make/distinguish them to that genre/category?

What series are good examples?

[quenelf]

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Wrath of the Njr said:
Read about "moe" titles, but what exactly are they/have they to make/distinguish them to that genre/category?


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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo%C3%A9

(FWIW, I personally have the impression that 'moe' refers to 'cute' shows more than it refers to 'fanservice' shows, so that it can be used also about those shows that appeal both to young children and adult otaku... But there are certainly shows specifically aimed to appeal to 'moe' otaku and these are the ones you're probably referring to.)

--quen

[Ialdaboth]

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quen said:
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Wrath of the Njr said:
Read about "moe" titles, but what exactly are they/have they to make/distinguish them to that genre/category?


[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo%C3%A9


[/ QUOTE ]

A full (and interesting) essay on the theme :
http://heiseidemocracy.net/2005/12/07/the-moe-image/

[bci110]

Ask John article (http://www.animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=831) on "moe".

ANN Lexicon (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/lexicon.php?id=77) definition of "moe".

[something]

One thing I commonly see as difficult in definitions of 'moe' (and why I feel like it can't be defined very well) is the emphasis on "submissive" or "helpless" girls. When I think of moe, I don't necessarily (or wel,l don't only) think of, say, "that cute sick girl who coughs a lot and acts tragic" but also lots of other things.

Hazuki of TMP is moe for me, but she's not always helpless. Nanoha and Fate from Mahou Shoujo Lyrical Nanoha can probably be called moe in a way but they're about the LEAST helpless magical girls ever /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif Don't think you're going to rush in and save them, you'll just get caught in the explosion and become collateral damage =P Heck, Komugi (Nurse Witch version) comes to mind when I think of moe, and she's not anything like that either.

So, I don't know, is there a better term at all that describes "younger bishoujo"? And I don't mean loli, that's so not the same thing =P The way moe is often described just makes it seem like it's inherently a silly fanboy fetish, and any "moe" character is automatically little more than a manifestation of animators pandering to the audience with no concern whatsoever for characterization, storytelling or substance generally. Of course, I'm sure some posters here feel actually feel that way. Heck, I've read numerous posts to that effect, except they were often far less civil about it =P

Soooooooo, I dunno. It's yet another anime fandom term that just seems far from practical in its narrowly defined sense, but too wide in common use to really pin down.

So, I'm going to use it however the hell I want, just like I've been doing =P

[Jarred]

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Ialdaboth said:
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quen said:
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Wrath of the Njr said:
Read about "moe" titles, but what exactly are they/have they to make/distinguish them to that genre/category?


[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo%C3%A9


[/ QUOTE ]

A full (and interesting) essay on the theme :
http://heiseidemocracy.net/2005/12/07/the-moe-image/

[/ QUOTE ]
And Ken Akamatsu even wrote about it (http://matthew.animeblogger.net/archives/2005/07/20/wednesday_notes_akamatsu-sensei_talks_moe.php) (translated).


I think it's one of those things where it's really up to the individual on how they feel about a certain character, rather than a blanket classification. But the phenomenon has gotten so big that now creators and producers actually create manga/anime that is supposed to elicit those "moe" feelings.

[Skywise]

I'd say Akamatsu is right on the yen as to what moe is. The problem of course is that some people don't understand the meaning, and instead try to assert the moe attribute to things that aren't. So moe as a word is basically being watered down. Fanservice for instance has absolutely nothing to do with moe - it's totally unrelated, and would neither detract nor add to it.

[something]

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Skywise said:
I'd say Akamatsu is right on the yen as to what moe is. The problem of course is that some people don't understand the meaning, and instead try to assert the moe attribute to things that aren't. So moe as a word is basically being watered down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I like that he included the whole tsundere concept, as I think that's what I was getting at in my post. If anything, I think that type of dynamic is at least as common if not more common than the "weak, helpless" side. Or, maybe I'm not watching the "right" shows. But really, I'm not interested in helpless anime girls. The ones who can put up their own fight, either physically or more often emotionally, those are the characters I enjoy watching. Give me Fate (Nanoha) or Hiyono (Spiral) any day over "token 'sickly girl' bishoujo game adaptation character #24,882". On the other hand, I look at Misuzu from AIR and see one of the strongest characters in recent years, despite the fact that she's (I assume) supposed to elicit massive "must protect!" urges, so maybe my perceptions differ from those of others, or what was intended.

I also do think that taking his definition too strictly really limits its application though. How many characters are truly "moe" according to this? Could any character that fits every criteris (and isn't tsundere) possibly be even remotely interesting or capable of any characterization at all? They might as well be a lifeless doll at that point.

I think moe can just be one aspect of a character's personality, mixed to whatever degree with other characteristics. It has to be. Pure moe would make for the worst, most uninteresting character ever.

Edit: I should also add that I'm wary about strictly defining pop-phenomenon like this in general. These things start, somehow, but then take on a life of their own through use more or less instantly. Trying to reel it in to a "pure" definition and saying everyone else is wrong/misguided doesn't always add much to the debate. After all, concepts evolve, and who says this version of the concept, being put forth here as definitive, reaches the "true essence" more than any other definition? I'm not saying we can't try, or that some people can't just be flat out wrong while others hit pretty damn close. Rather, I'm just wary, that's all.

[Skywise]

You can actually say that something is flat out wrong with regards to moe, because for something to be moe it has to invoke a feeling of love. That's what moe is. It's also what I was referring to with regards to fanservice - some people think that moe is about that, when it's not. Or they may say that a cute character is moe, when in reality they have no feelings for that character - they just think it's cute or like the character design. The first one is easy to dispute, while the second is much harder because you'd have to know exactly what that person is feeling.

The weak/protect bit is just giving an example of a character type that might appeal to those people predisposed to moe. What matters more is how you feel. A lot of people don't understand that, because the concept is so foreign to them that until they've experienced it, it's impossible.

[LOUiE]

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Jarred said:
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Ialdaboth said:
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quen said:
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Wrath of the Njr said:
Read about "moe" titles, but what exactly are they/have they to make/distinguish them to that genre/category?


[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo%C3%A9


[/ QUOTE ]

A full (and interesting) essay on the theme :
http://heiseidemocracy.net/2005/12/07/the-moe-image/

[/ QUOTE ]
And Ken Akamatsu even wrote about it (http://matthew.animeblogger.net/archives/2005/07/20/wednesday_notes_akamatsu-sensei_talks_moe.php) (translated).


I think it's one of those things where it's really up to the individual on how they feel about a certain character, rather than a blanket classification. But the phenomenon has gotten so big that now creators and producers actually create manga/anime that is supposed to elicit those "moe" feelings.

[/ QUOTE ]
So would Mao-chan be the type of show considered moe?

[Fencedude]

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LOUiE said:

So would Mao-chan be the type of show considered moe?

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Moe is NOT A GENRE

Moe is something YOU feel. Is it moe for you?

[Scaramanga]

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Fencedude said:
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LOUiE said:

So would Mao-chan be the type of show considered moe?

[/ QUOTE ]
Moe is NOT A GENRE

Moe is something YOU feel. Is it moe for you?

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, I think this is something that is really being overlooked: moe is mostly dependant on the viewer. I may regard one character as moe whereas someone else may not (although, I would posit that the characters themselves would probably conform to some general mold first before even being considered moe.) I DO think it's that subjective nature, though, that makes moe really hard to pin-down for a lot of people.

[Vicserr]

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Fencedude said:
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LOUiE said:

So would Mao-chan be the type of show considered moe?

[/ QUOTE ]

Moe is NOT A GENRE

Moe is something YOU feel. Is it moe for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

Come on guys, just say Moe (http://www.art-nostalgia.com/an/images/re_com/3stooges_just_say_moe_73629.jpg) /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[DKL]

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DKL said:
I love the show... but as opposed to some comments I've seen, I think I’ll take a different approach.

I remember reading somewhere that the series made the person rethink society (or something profound like that)

… But I think that what the series does for me is that it makes me rethink… moé.

That is all.

(too lazy to be serious… but hey, it ain’t hard to find praise on the thing)

[/ QUOTE ]

... seemed stragely appropriate o_o

Anyway, lemme read over the whole thing before making actual comments

[Njr Scrawl]

I get it, I think.

Moe-d by;

Madoka Ayukawa
Belldandy (OMG OVAs & movie)
Yurika (Nadesico)
Minoto (Nadesico)
Menchi (Excel saga)
Miyuki (You're Under Arrest)

interesting that there are also characters I like very much, but don't have quite the same affection for, e.g. Kyoko in MI, Misato in Eva.

[Skywise]

Heh, that's the spirit. While Menchi isn't exactly the first thing that comes to mind, I can see how those others would work, but as they say, whatever floats your boat /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

To give a further example, moe for me is Sakura in CCS. While I sit there for those 25 mins, there's this sublime feeling - I just totally relax and I'm out of this world. One of the hardest episodes to watch is actually the one where they go on vacation, and Sakura meets an old man in the woods. It was just too creepy, because there was absolutely no sense of "Don't talk to strangers" or other moralizing that you'd normally find in say american cartoons.

[mk2000]

I would have to agree and say that Sakura is the most moe character in anime history.

The moe feelings produced by the visual images of Sakura can be reproduced with the following picture:
evidence (http://www.evolutionkakumei.com/frogkitten03.jpg)

So closet moe fans, you may now come out and hold your head high without shame because, indeed, Sakura = Moe and Moe = Kittens.

Solid proof my friends.

[michaelwb]

True moe, no pretenders... (http://www.threestooges.com/bios/bios.asp?intStoogeID=1)

[Citizen Klaus]

Moe is like Zen. It is everything, and it is nothing. It is the beginning, and it is the end. It is tangible, but it cannot be touched, tasted, or smelt. To paraphrase Polorinken, it is man's greatest innovation, and could very well end up being man's greatest mistake.

But ultimately, moe is love. Literally.

[Njr Scrawl]

*sings* Moe, a dear, a female dear /images/graemlins/tongue.gif /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif *flees*

[ayareiko]

What about jimi-moe? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/jason42/ppd19-eyecatch.jpg) /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

[Shsway]

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Aya Reiko said:
What about jimi-moe? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/jason42/ppd19-eyecatch.jpg) /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

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WTF was that? Other than a totally NSFW image... /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif

[Citizen Klaus]

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Aya Reiko said:
What about jimi-moe? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/jason42/ppd19-eyecatch.jpg) /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice, but Becky is superior.

[ayareiko]

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Citizen Klaus said:
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Aya Reiko said:
What about jimi-moe? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/jason42/ppd19-eyecatch.jpg) /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Nice, but Becky is superior.

[/ QUOTE ]
Only if you're a loli-con. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

And Rei is superior since she covers meganekko-moe, China dress-moe, and (breifly) meido-moe. /images/graemlins/shy10000.gif
But Kurumi is vastly underappreciated. /images/graemlins/noseblee.gif

[AutoGyro]

I've always thought moe was another way of saying "emo" /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[Keiti]

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mk2000 said:
The moe feelings produced by the visual images of Sakura can be reproduced with the following picture:
evidence (http://www.evolutionkakumei.com/frogkitten03.jpg)

Solid proof my friends.

[/ QUOTE ]

That. Was. Too. Cute. (Insert girlish squeal here)

/images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[Atomsk]

*looks at sig*

Well that must be it than.. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[something]

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Shsway said:
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Aya Reiko said:
What about jimi-moe? (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v404/jason42/ppd19-eyecatch.jpg) /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

WTF was that? Other than a totally NSFW image... /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh, Kurumi from Paniponi Dash, looking decidedly non-plain =P(the gag with her is that she's a plain and normal girl, so everyone teases her about it)

[AstroNerdBoy]

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Jarred said:
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Ialdaboth said:
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quen said:
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Wrath of the Njr said:
Read about "moe" titles, but what exactly are they/have they to make/distinguish them to that genre/category?


[/ QUOTE ]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mo%C3%A9


[/ QUOTE ]

A full (and interesting) essay on the theme :
http://heiseidemocracy.net/2005/12/07/the-moe-image/

[/ QUOTE ]
And Ken Akamatsu even wrote about it (http://matthew.animeblogger.net/archives/2005/07/20/wednesday_notes_akamatsu-sensei_talks_moe.php) (translated).


I think it's one of those things where it's really up to the individual on how they feel about a certain character, rather than a blanket classification. But the phenomenon has gotten so big that now creators and producers actually create manga/anime that is supposed to elicit those "moe" feelings.

[/ QUOTE ]

Was Moe-chan in Akamatu-sensei's Love Hina manga? I know she was in the anime and the character defines the term (IMO).

[Fencedude]

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AstroNerdBoy said:

Was Moe-chan in Akamatu-sensei's Love Hina manga? I know she was in the anime and the character defines the term (IMO).

[/ QUOTE ]

Nope, that story was anime original.