What's most important for you in anime?

[Nani]

This is based on a recent poll I saw on another anime site. The results of that poll were somewhat depressing so I wondered what people on this site believe.

[AbeChinchilla]

Characters and animation.

Some shows don't NEED a plot, but it's very welcomed.

Animation is a big thing for me now. With the movement to CG animation, a LOT of anime look ALL THE SAME now.

So I need something that looks distinguished.

(Abe misses the gold ol' days of tradtional hand-painted cels)

[LexiJ]

The characters always come first. It doesn't matter how good the plot is, if I can't sympathize with, or even like the characters involved, I'm not going to enjoy the show. Conversely, I'll forgive a weak plot if I like the characters. Eva and Avenger are prime examples of this. Not even Megumi Ogata could get me to care about Shinji as a lead character, so I don't like Eva. However, I love the three lead characters in Avenger, so I like the series.

Storyline and plot come second, but since I like Shinobuden as much as I like Utena, as long as it's enjoyable, I'm happy.

[EmperorBrandon]

From my experience, characters first always. It's far more important than any of those other factors (so only thing I voted on in the poll). If I don't enjoy the characters in some manner, then the anime has failed.

Plot is pretty important, both a good overall plot (if there is one) and good episodic/story arc plots. I can do without a complex, intricate plot (even a weak one in some cases) if I find the characters enjoyable enough, though.

Music is probably something that is not thought about much in terms of being the "most important" thing for an anime (and not something people ask about often in recommendations), but I think it does have a significant effect depending on its use. The same goes for vocal performances which can be the heart of an anime series in my opinion. I don't have to be blown away by animation, but I do want it to be pretty and pleasing to the eyes in some regard.

[something]

I didn't even use my second vote (but it would have been story of course).

Characters make or break a show 90% of the time. I've liked far more plotless shows with great characters, than well written shows with weak casts.

Music and animation are important, the latter much much moreso, but only to a point. Subject Matter is largely irrelevant, as I only avoid hardcore horror, sports and most giant robot anime. Originality is important but only in the small things. You can be harem anime #44282 and still be original if you throw in a nice twist or buck a cliche trend or two. Asking for a large dose of originality isn't even something I consider doing anymore. It's just not necessary.

[Gatts]

Everything and nothing. I can like anything about an anime. I can also dislike anything about an anime. Since I do not find any one thing to be the most important, there are few anime I can say I don't like.

[rainking187]

I've got to go with story 100%. I don't care how likeable the characters are, if the story is crap I'm not watching it. Pretty much anything besides plot is unimportant to me.

[golthin]

Amazing that people don't care about originality. I guess people just like recycled anyme stereotypes just with a different plot and different characters. /images/graemlins/icon_rolleyes.gif

[something]

[ QUOTE ]
golthin said:
Amazing that people don't care about originality. I guess people just like recycled anyme stereotypes just with a different plot and different characters. /images/graemlins/icon_rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Er... no. But caring too much about originality is just getting worked up for nothing because *originality is basically impossible*.

And how do you figure "not original" equates to "recycled anime stereotypes"? Does a show have to be bad because the basic premise has been done before?

True originality does not usually come from creating a new genre every time you put pen to paper, or digital pain to computer. It can, sure, but it's far more practical to simply redefine old norms with fun new twists, and put your own personal stamp on things.

THAT is originality.

[Ryos]

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
golthin said:
Amazing that people don't care about originality. I guess people just like recycled anyme stereotypes just with a different plot and different characters. /images/graemlins/icon_rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Er... no. But caring too much about originality is just getting worked up for nothing because *originality is basically impossible*.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think a lot of people are confused that it's 100% impossible to be truly original with anything because EVERYTHING has been done at some point. Sure, you can put an innovative twist to an old idea, but really anything that strikes you as original has been done before.

With anime, for instance, there is much following of a set formula, a tired cliche. While some works aren't quite THAT unoriginal, at the same time there's very little that breaks new ground (and what "new ground" there seems to be is most likely due to the fact you haven't read or seen it before, not that it hasn't been done yet) once you're more familiar with the medium. What interests me is how a series or movie or whatever takes a concept that's been done before (preferably not ad nauseam, but again, we're talking anime here) and put it in a completely unexpected take on it. While I can go into any given anime and expect certain universalities of anime to hold true, at the same time I can't go into any anime expecting it to be exactly the same as any similar program of a genre.

This is part of the reason why I didn't vote for originality - it's a utopian ideal that simply cannot be attained regardless of how hard anyone tries. With that in mind, I went with story and characters in that order, though an anime lacking in one or both areas probably isn't going to be high on my list of favorites.

[Njr Scrawl]

Characters personalities. Also very important is the voice acting.

If the personality & voice are good, the story & situation is usually taken care of by that. Voices of a Distant Star is a good example, or Only Yesterday...many others.

Music can help a show's mood - again too many to list but any Miyazaki film with Joe Hishashi scores. Crest/Banner of the Stars is wonderfully epic/symphonic sounding as another choice.

[Pyocola]

Art/animation and characters.

I'd have to agree with Abe that some shows don't really need a thick plot to be good and can rely on other qualities, case in point: Haibane Renmei.

With characters, the 'originality' choice is already somewhat incorporated, since I won't consider the same old clichéd harem types good characters.

[cairber]

I picked characters and story over originality. It seemed like originality was kind of a catch all for everything else; if you have solid, exciting characters that your audience feels for and a plot that they are engaged in, it seems like you would immediately have some kind of originality.

[Garrett Jax]

I chose character and story/plot.

In reality though it's a triumvirate of factors that draws me to certain anime. I personally love a character that actually grows with the series. You know, a character that has become more or less than what they were in the beginning due to the situations or trials they incurred in the anime. Secondly, I like a good intriguing story/plot that grabs you from the beginning and keeps you enticed with it all through-out the series... maybe throwing in a twist here or there.

Lastly, I would prefer the animation to be smooth and fluid. If there's use of some 3D CGI than ideally it should be seamless and not a jarring transition from one to the other. Examples of this seamless transistion I've come across most recently would be anime that incorporates 3D CGI like Vandread and GitS:SAC

For me,... that's the trinity that holds an anime together and helps me enjoy it that much more. If one or two fall short though for some reason and the other(s) actually makes up for it, I'll still watch and enjoy it.

Anyways, that's my two cents worth /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[Suwako Moriya]

I went with Characters first and Story/Plot second. Well characters was an easy choice, but the rest was harder to decide between. However to be honest in the end it's the over all presentation rather than a specific part or the sum of the parts that makes an Anime good as well as bad of course.

[remo]

You left out the most important one for many -- availability of an art box. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Suwako Moriya]

I myself stopped caring about originality years ago for multiple reasons.

1. I have not viewed every story. So for all I know a story that I see as "original" may have already been done before. In fact that's most likely the case. In other words for me to enjoy the show because it's original is pointless because of that. Why worship a show for being original when I may in fact be wrong about that?

2. Originality often creates a trap. The princess being helpless is cliche so you can't do that. However if the princess can defend herself that's also cliche. So in other words no matter how the princess is portrayed she's automatically unoriginal. Okay maybe not the best example, but you get the idea.

3. I find that when worshipping originality people often take one single trait that two characters share. Then they decide that they are exactly the same because of that figuratively speaking. I prefer to look at the over all package of a character not a single trait.

[GanChan]

Story.

And pantsu. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[GanChan]

Re originality in the pure sense, the world's ancient playwrights and storytellers got there before all the rest of us, and those basic mythical threads and character archetypes are continually being recycled in modern dramatic presentations. I do cringe to see one anime blatantly ripping off another in surface details, but that's the nature of television -- if something hits, do it again until it wears out its welcome.

[Kurou]

For me, I put subject matter, and characters.

Subject matter for me also includes setting. If it's a mecha based show, I'll be a lot more inclined to watch it than I am a high school based one or a comedy, both of which I dislike.

Characters are what make or break it most of the time, though. A good enough cast can carry a show through the bad parts (FMP) or let it down, even if the story is good (Gundam Seed / Destiny).

[balthier2012]

I picked characters and story plot. But sometimes it takes all of them to be labelled a great show.

[martod]

Characters and animation. I love character-driven series, plot or no plot. By animation, I mean character designs more than actual animation. I want cuteness, not realism. If I wanted to see realistic looking characters, I'd watch a live action show.

[jecca-neko]

[ QUOTE ]
Kiku Sarasugawa said:
I went with Characters first and Story/Plot second. Well characters was an easy choice, but the rest was harder to decide between. However to be honest in the end it's the over all presentation rather than a specific part or the sum of the parts that makes an Anime good as well as bad of course.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's my opinion too. But to go into more detail, characters can make or break a show for me. If I hate the characters (Infinite Ryvius anyone?) then it's near impossible for me to enjoy the show. If I love the characters, no matter how bad everything else might be, I can still enjoy it. Story being good is pretty important too. Not as important as characters, but it's up there.

[Mononoke]

This poll is actually misleading in a way, because all of the things listed are important. You really can't narrow it down to just two categories, saying you'll like the anime if those two are strong and everything else is bad. I've had shows where the story and characters were pretty good, yet the music and art style were bad, so I couldn't watch it (it would've made a good book). I've also had shows where the music was great but the story was lacking, and they didn't really work either.

I voted for Music and Originality because what's really important is that a show have something that grabs you. It could be characters, it could be story, it could be setting, it could be music, it could be anything -- as long as it makes you stand up, take notice, and go "hey now that's a cool idea." It may not be the dictionary definition of the word, but the only way to really describe that is Originality.

I picked Music second because it can make me want to see a show I know nothing about (like Angela's OP for Stellvia), or near trash an otherwise good show (some Hollywood films are the only examples that come to mind right away here). Music is something many people don't recognize as influential, but it really affects your interpretation of what you're seeing. It can make a mediocre show great, or make a great show mediocre. So that's why I picked it as my second vote.

[machineger4]

I went with characters first and story/plot second, though almost all of the ones listed are needed to be a truly great show. If the characters aren't good, then it's a bit difficult to get into even the best written show. There are some genres that I'm not the biggest fan of, but if the plot is interesting and/or there are some intriguing characters, I'll stick around a show that's in a genre I don't really like.

While I like to check out shows that are different from the others, originality is not too important for me since good writing can make you ignore the unoriginal parts.

[Redcoffin]

Characters and Story:
I seem to be well within the fold.

One thing I'll say about "animation." I think there are really two (at least) aspects involved: the drawing and the rendering. Urusei Yatsura is really not a very well animated TV show, but the drawings are fabulous -- I almost can't think of an anime show where the facial expressions of the characters and their body language is so expressive. This is particularly true in the earlier episodes where the movement is at its most jerky and simplistic. So I think the "animation" question has more than one aspect. But I'll put up with crud animation for a good story and characters, anyday. I liked Kaze no Yojimbo, didn't I?

[4Tran]

I picked characters for the same reasons as others have already pointed out. Simply put, you can't have a successful show without good characters.

I would say that the second most important element is writing (or perhaps direction). Whether it's the subtleties put into dialogue, or the way characters react to events; the presentation can distinguish between a good show and a bad one. For me, the very best writing will make the viewer contribute something to the show. I tend not to lump this in with story/plot because they address different things.

Originality is sort of overrated. The conventions set in anime are well recognized, few shows will deviate very much from them. I don't really expect more than a new take on a familiar subject at the best of times. Even the most original anime tend to explore topics that have already been exhaustively covered by other mediums.

[ibby]

Characters comes first, then plot, and then music. Good music can help enchance certain scenes and thus help move the viewer feeling a certain emotion.

[balthier2012]

[ QUOTE ]
4Tran said:
I picked characters for the same reasons as others have already pointed out. Simply put, you can't have a successful show without good characters.

I would say that the second most important element is writing (or perhaps direction). Whether it's the subtleties put into dialogue, or the way characters react to events; the presentation can distinguish between a good show and a bad one. For me, the very best writing will make the viewer contribute something to the show. I tend not to lump this in with story/plot because they address different things.

Originality is sort of overrated. The conventions set in anime are well recognized, few shows will deviate very much from them. I don't really expect more than a new take on a familiar subject at the best of times. Even the most original anime tend to explore topics that have already been exhaustively covered by other mediums.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think originality is overrated (even if I didn't vote for originality). Some stories seem as if they have been done 3 dozen times. Such as the average school boy becomes mecha savior of the planet.

There are countless cultures and historic ideas that haven't been explored yet. No offense to the japanese but maybe they should reach outside of their own and fasinate themselves with other worldly stories. Atleast for the sake of anime so that it doesn't eventually become nothing but rehashed ideas with new characters. There's atleast 200 anime series I wish I could trade out for original ideas.

And there's levels of originality. I'm speaking of the entire show, not just small concepts within the show. Obviously, originality isn't always possible to maintain at all times. But starting ideas... I mean where's the greek mythology, arabic, biblical, let's get some pirate animes based on 1700s caribbean. Don't get me wrong, if Japan wishes to shun these stories and stick to their own I will still enjoy many new animes to come, but I'll have to avoid just as much.

P.S.
Comedies don't apply. For some reason originality doesn't mean jack shit in this genre /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[fantasydewdrop]

[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
But starting ideas... I mean where's the greek mythology, arabic, biblical, let's get some pirate animes based on 1700s caribbean. Don't get me wrong, if Japan wishes to shun these stories and stick to their own I will still enjoy many new animes to come, but I'll have to avoid just as much.


[/ QUOTE ]
But the western-world over-uses Greek, Biblical and pirate themes enough as it is. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif
Though some Arabic-influence stuff would be interesting....

[fantasydewdrop]

I say characters and writing, but since "writing" wasn't an option, I picked story/plot, since it's somewhat close. Because really, you could have two shows that feature very similar characters and very similar plots, but the one with the better writing will turn out better. Even if the characters and situations themselves are stupid, intelligent and masterful writing will show through. The quality of the writing itself is what makes the difference.

[Lumene]

Characters is the most important thing second comes Story/Plot.

[citicslmatts]

1. Animation.
2. Story.

I'm not likely to invest in a show/film which performs poorly in either of these areas.

[BonnKansan]

[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
There are countless cultures and historic ideas that haven't been explored yet. No offense to the japanese but maybe they should reach outside of their own and fasinate themselves with other worldly stories. Atleast for the sake of anime so that it doesn't eventually become nothing but rehashed ideas with new characters. There's atleast 200 anime series I wish I could trade out for original ideas.

And there's levels of originality. I'm speaking of the entire show, not just small concepts within the show. Obviously, originality isn't always possible to maintain at all times. But starting ideas... I mean where's the greek mythology, arabic, biblical, let's get some pirate animes based on 1700s caribbean. Don't get me wrong, if Japan wishes to shun these stories and stick to their own I will still enjoy many new animes to come, but I'll have to avoid just as much.

P.S.
Comedies don't apply. For some reason originality doesn't mean jack shit in this genre /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, let's find some anime already in existance that fit your starting suggestions.

Greek mythology: isn't Saint Seiya based on that?
Biblical: Superbook and Flying House were originally Japanese, and I read in another thread that Tezuka made a Biblical series too
Arabic: The Ishbal culture in Fullmetal Alchemist is clearly inspired by Arabic Islamic culture. And that's the most asian aspect of that show.
Pirates: While definitely stretching reality a bit (pun intended), One Piece fits into this genre. Maybe it's not Caribbean enough for you though, and I don't know what you mean by "comedies don't apply".

I'm not sure how much anime you've been watching, but you seem to be ignoring a few of your favorites (like Berserk and Twelve Kingdoms) to make a point. Of course the Japanese are going to set the vast majority of their cartoons at home, like pretty much all American tv series are set in America - and either New York or California to boot. But there's plenty of interest in other places and cultures, so you'll see a few series that explore them.

I'd bet that for practically any culture or historical time you can think of, you can find an anime set in that - if you're willing to look at older series, allow some revision or reinterpretation (not like Disney doesn't do this either), and accept that it might not be the best quality. I must say I enjoy the rare anime that explores other cultures in a high-quality form, like Master Keaton and Yugo the Negotiator.

Oh, and for the record: characters and story for me, but the rest help make a show awesome too /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif.

[fantasydewdrop]

[ QUOTE ]
BonnKansan said:
Greek mythology: isn't Saint Seiya based on that?

[/ QUOTE ]
Sailor Moon also borrows a bit from Greek/Roman mythology (remember, the Romans pretty much just renamed everything, so even though the names in Sailor Moon are generally Roman, it's still got Greek influence).
Anything based on Romeo & Juliet has Greek influence; Shakespear based it on a Greek play.

Atlantis and references to it also has the habit of showing up in the strangest places.

[ QUOTE ]

I'd bet that for practically any culture or historical time you can think of, you can find an anime set in that - if you're willing to look at older series, allow some revision or reinterpretation, and accept that it might not be the best quality.


[/ QUOTE ] *shifty eyes* Anything centered around Zulu tribes?

[joelgundam01]

Plot and a good cast of characters are the two most important in my book.

[balthier2012]

[ QUOTE ]
BonnKansan said:
[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
There are countless cultures and historic ideas that haven't been explored yet. No offense to the japanese but maybe they should reach outside of their own and fasinate themselves with other worldly stories. Atleast for the sake of anime so that it doesn't eventually become nothing but rehashed ideas with new characters. There's atleast 200 anime series I wish I could trade out for original ideas.

And there's levels of originality. I'm speaking of the entire show, not just small concepts within the show. Obviously, originality isn't always possible to maintain at all times. But starting ideas... I mean where's the greek mythology, arabic, biblical, let's get some pirate animes based on 1700s caribbean. Don't get me wrong, if Japan wishes to shun these stories and stick to their own I will still enjoy many new animes to come, but I'll have to avoid just as much.

P.S.
Comedies don't apply. For some reason originality doesn't mean jack shit in this genre /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, let's find some anime already in existance that fit your starting suggestions.

Greek mythology: isn't Saint Seiya based on that?
Biblical: Superbook and Flying House were originally Japanese, and I read in another thread that Tezuka made a Biblical series too
Arabic: The Ishbal culture in Fullmetal Alchemist is clearly inspired by Arabic Islamic culture. And that's the most asian aspect of that show.
Pirates: While definitely stretching reality a bit (pun intended), One Piece fits into this genre. Maybe it's not Caribbean enough for you though, and I don't know what you mean by "comedies don't apply".

I'm not sure how much anime you've been watching, but you seem to be ignoring a few of your favorites (like Berserk and Twelve Kingdoms) to make a point. Of course the Japanese are going to set the vast majority of their cartoons at home, like pretty much all American tv series are set in America - and either New York or California to boot. But there's plenty of interest in other places and cultures, so you'll see a few series that explore them.

I'd bet that for practically any culture or historical time you can think of, you can find an anime set in that - if you're willing to look at older series, allow some revision or reinterpretation (not like Disney doesn't do this either), and accept that it might not be the best quality. I must say I enjoy the rare anime that explores other cultures in a high-quality form, like Master Keaton and Yugo the Negotiator.


[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, and that's precisely why they are MY FAVORITES (FMA, Berserk, 12k, Yugo, Keaton). Because I've seen all the other stories rehashed a dozen times I end up forgetting about them. Although Twelve Kingdoms feels more like chinese mythology to me, Berserk fulfills a brutal medieval world anime. While unfortunately One Piece doesn't do it for me on the pirates (maybe if I saw the uncut). I want a brutal pirate world, with a Berserk's level of harshness, I want heads flying and blood and rape. Yugo and Master Keaton did good for what they are however, there's only two of them and 82 school boy mechas. Can we see some balance?!

I said comedies don't apply because I can watch a school comedy setting and still enjoy it. Simply because the focus isn't necessarily on the story or originality but the comedy itself. As long as the writer knows how to create good comedy with character interactions that's all that matters for the genre. While drama, adventure, and others are usually fulfilled by plot twists and unique ideas. (Scrapped Priness)

Superbook and Flying House.. never heard of them, how old are they? Okay, onto Saint Seiya. Sorry it's a little to old for my tastes.. can you name me maybe... 5 newer shows that have greek mythology, or greek setting? (aside from Reign) Just to get my fill.. or is there none others? I'm betting on the latter.

EDIT:
Yeah, Americans set their cartoons at home. And they suck. (comedies excluded again). Doesn't mean Japan has to be like those fools. Eventually they will learn that telling the same story over and over won't cut it. If american story writers want to do that, who cares, it's prolly why I don't watch most of it. (whatever it is they do, aside from hollywood films).

[Genesis]

Animation and story for me. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[4Tran]

[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
I don't think originality is overrated (even if I didn't vote for originality). Some stories seem as if they have been done 3 dozen times. Such as the average school boy becomes mecha savior of the planet.

There are countless cultures and historic ideas that haven't been explored yet. No offense to the japanese but maybe they should reach outside of their own and fasinate themselves with other worldly stories. Atleast for the sake of anime so that it doesn't eventually become nothing but rehashed ideas with new characters. There's atleast 200 anime series I wish I could trade out for original ideas.


[/ QUOTE ]
Well, there's two reasons why I don't put much stock on originality. This is the first one; that even the shows that tackle themes rare to anime tend to have ideas that have already been addressed in non-anime works. If a show tackles the Arthurian Legend, is it really being original, or is it derivative of many, many other works in literature? It's almost as much a question of frame of reference as it is of true originality.

Secondly, even if a work is less than original, does this automatically make it inferior? I have absolutely no problem enjoying Arthurian Legend #124 if the show's other elements work. For example, Canvas 2 seems like yet another bishoujo-game turned anime. However, I think that the writing is often excellent. For me this enough to beat out seemingly more original works. Everybody's mileage is going to vary on this point.

For example, both Twelve Kingdoms and Berserk have many elements derived from literature (Chinese literature in particular). While they are pretty original insofar as anime goes, they are much less so for those who have read similar works. However, does this truly detract from their quality? I don't think so, and I have no problem enjoying those works on their own terms (Twelve Kingdoms happens to be my personal favorite). I have the feeling that most people tend to dislike high-school romance #201 because of uninteresting characters, poor writing, or unappealing story rather than just because it's unoriginal.

[Nani]

[ QUOTE ]
KasiTL said:
I say characters and writing, but since "writing" wasn't an option

[/ QUOTE ]

I was trying to stay away from the back end/technical stuff of anime. I could have gone into voice acting, english dub direction, show direction, japanese voice direction, character designs, inbetween art, studio, foley, etc. but I figured that wouldn't be a particularly interesting poll.

Not to mention writing gets a little difficult because we'd have both english adaptation and original language to deal with then.

I guess I just wanted to keep it simple, though I do understand your point of view.

[Nani]

[ QUOTE ]
Pyocola said:
I'd have to agree with Abe that some shows don't really need a thick plot to be good and can rely on other qualities, case in point: Haibane Renmei.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd disagree on the fact that Haibane Renmei doesn't tell a good story. I linked plot and story together intentionally because I don't see them as separate things. Story, in my interpretation, brings together good writing, the layering and twisting of plotlines, which all come together in the end to give us a satisfying climax.

Haibane Renmei, while not a high action plot, did all these and told a very good story. Anime that I don't belive has a good story/plot would be something like Azumanga Daioh, which I enjoyed.

However, I think there are many anime out there with bad plots/stories that are utter rubbish. They contain plot holes, break their own rules, are boring, etc. In general, I'd see their plot/story, or lack thereof, as serious flaws.

[Nani]

[ QUOTE ]
Lamhirh of the Stars said:
This poll is actually misleading in a way, because all of the things listed are important. You really can't narrow it down to just two categories, saying you'll like the anime if those two are strong and everything else is bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're reading far more into the question than was stated. "What's most important for you in an anime?" is a no more misleading question than, "What's most important for you in a car?" Of course, if you think the car question is misleading than there's no hope for you. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[balthier2012]

Some good points there. However I'm talking about originality in anime, since this is all about what's most important for you in anime. And I don't know about the masses but I don't read literature much, because I'm into anime. So it would be great if they took some of those stories.

And yes, it's also very important the writer knows how to create interesting character interactions and relationships to keep the viewer entertained in between major story plot issues.

So I'm not talking about original stories all forms of media or book, but anime alone. If we were comparing anime stories to those not found in anime it makes it extremely hard to be original. And forget Arthur and Alexander, what about Dionysus? There's many legends that are interesting but haven't been explored nearly as much.

Anyways, you do make some interesting points, but I believe anime could stretch out more and as long as they have all the other good aspects, they'd be successful.

[indigo0086]

Characters, animation.

[Kris Z]

Storyline, Character Development and Character Design.

If the characters don't look that good, I avoid the series altogether. If the storyline is not cohesive and interesting, it will not interest me in the long run. If the characters don't develop, it feels stagnated.

[Nani]

[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
So I'm not talking about original stories all forms of media or book, but anime alone. If we were comparing anime stories to those not found in anime it makes it extremely hard to be original. And forget Arthur and Alexander, what about Dionysus?

[/ QUOTE ]

How, exactly, is remaking a legend original?

Like many here have said, true originality is impossible, there are so many themes and conflicts in the world. However, there is a decided lack of original use in direction, dialogue (how many times can you predict almost the exact words in a conversation in an anime?), and creation of their own mythologies?

There's a difference between appropriation of a theme and making it your own and being lazy and just copying the same story with slightly different nuances.

Let's take two different anime, for example: Wolf's Rain and Gundam Seed. Wolf's Rain follows the classic quest story, and it even, to a certain extent, has archetypes. However, its mythology is original, its characters are more than just archetypes, and the character conflict is honest and unpredictable. By honest I mean it follows out of their actual characters rather than a tool for the plot.

Gundam Seed, however, is mostly a retread of all previous Gundams. Experimental Gundams laughably easily stolen and a giant pursuit after that? Check. Angst ridden kid pilot who doesn't want to kill people but is special and learns to do it to protect his friends. Check. Trite dialogue that often consists of yelling each others names and not much else. Check. Beautiful songstress that looks pretty but doesn't do much else but become a damsel in distress? Well, not quite a Gundam mainstay...but definitely common in anime. Etc. etc. I'm not saying that GSeed is bad, in fact, if it was the only Gundam a person saw, it might be one of the best. However, it's extraordinarily not original in any sense.

Sorry, Balthier, about this post pointing directly at you. I meant it more as a general response to some of the talk about originality. Your post was just the most recent and allowed for a good jumping off point.

[balthier2012]

Yeah, and I'm one of the ones who said true originality is impossible. However, there's level of originality. Some things can be more or less original. While there are 82+ school boy mecha save the planet stories (no offense to those who like those shows) there are less shows like Twelve Kingdoms and Berserk.

Now copying an already existing myth or story is FINE, considering if it has never been done before in anime, and done extremely little in all other forms of media. I'll use Dionysus as an example. While King Arthur has been done alot. So if an anime series tells the story of Dionysus it will be fresh. It won't seem like "oh i've seen this done a dozen times" Which is what I feel when watching other shows.

Basically copying a story that's already been copied several dozen times before in anime is not as original as copying a story that has never been done in anime and done very little in literature, movie, and whatever else. Considering that idea would still be fresh and feel new to anyone watching it since it hasn't been exposed much in the past via any other form of entertainment.

[Fencedude]

[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
Beautiful songstress that looks pretty but doesn't do much else but become a damsel in distress? Well, not quite a Gundam mainstay...but definitely common in anime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Err...generally the "beautiful songstress" doesn't end up organizing an resistance movement and commanding a battle fleet in the final battle...

(anyone who calls Lacus a "Damsel in Distress" didn't pay much attention to the series...)

[evilarrex]

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
Err...generally the "beautiful songstress" doesn't end up organizing an resistance movement and commanding a battle fleet in the final battle...

(anyone who calls Lacus a "Damsel in Distress" didn't pay much attention to the series...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well a couple of ships doesnt *quite* constitute a fleet. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif
But, I agree, Lacus is not a wilting shy flower.

[CrazyAsano]

[ QUOTE ]
Arrex said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
Err...generally the "beautiful songstress" doesn't end up organizing an resistance movement and commanding a battle fleet in the final battle...

(anyone who calls Lacus a "Damsel in Distress" didn't pay much attention to the series...)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well a couple of ships doesnt *quite* constitute a fleet. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif
But, I agree, Lacus is not a wilting shy flower.

[/ QUOTE ]
Wow, spoily.

[Sandz890]

For me it would have to be story... and originality I suppose.

I learned the hardway that animation doesnt determine the worth of an anime, examples being Lupin 3rd, Cromartie, and Goemon

Thats a hard question though...

[Dragon_Shiryu]

[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
Okay, onto Saint Seiya. Sorry it's a little to old for my tastes.. can you name me maybe... 5 newer shows that have greek mythology, or greek setting? (aside from Reign) Just to get my fill.. or is there none others? I'm betting on the latter.



[/ QUOTE ]

OK, since ZSaint Seiya is too old, you could watch Saint Seiya - The Hades Chapter (2003). /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif *runs*

[Dragon_Shiryu]

To me, characters and music. If the characters are likeable, they carry the show for me. Mix that wioth good music, and it's a winner.

[Mononoke]

[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
I think you're reading far more into the question than was stated. "What's most important for you in an anime?" is a no more misleading question than, "What's most important for you in a car?"

[/ QUOTE ]
The question itself was straightforward. The answer choices, in relation to the question, were the misleading part. I suppose it's because there wasn't a choice that fit what I wanted to say. IMO you can't say that any of the choices is most important, because without a good mix of them all you're going to be bored.

You needed a choice that read something like: "I expect 'decent' in all categories, plus at least one thing, in any category, that sticks out as new / striking / different / interesting / attention-grabbing."

[Ty]

Mmmmm.... Music and Characters. Animation is close behind, but I'm really big about music in general. I can watch Haibane Renmei for it's music alone, plus I get the added bonus of it being an awesome show too. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[something]

[ QUOTE ]
Lamhirh of the Stars said:
You needed a choice that read something like: "I expect 'decent' in all categories, plus at least one thing, in any category, that sticks out as new / striking / different / interesting / attention-grabbing."

[/ QUOTE ]

That was openly implied, I'd say. He didn't say "What two things are so important that nothing else matters at all?" It was just "What things are most important to you in an anime?" There was no sense of "these are all that is necessary".

But just to play devil's advocate futher, I really can see one or two of those (music especially) being pretty sub par without ruining a show. Heck, if low quality animation doomed a show, we wouldn't have much of an old school fanbase at all, as a lot of significantly older shows were, well, a bit primitive in terms of animation.

So I think it's more your own approach that makes the poll problematic -- personally, I just took it to mean exactly what it said: which is most important? Which aspect do you focus on most, which is most likely to hook you?

For me that is easily characters. Everything else on that list is completely secondary. Some of them can even be BAD, and a show can still be good. But even so, putting more weight in one category doesn't imply reductions to others.

[Nani]

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
Beautiful songstress that looks pretty but doesn't do much else but become a damsel in distress? Well, not quite a Gundam mainstay...but definitely common in anime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Err...generally the "beautiful songstress" doesn't end up organizing an resistance movement and commanding a battle fleet in the final battle...

(anyone who calls Lacus a "Damsel in Distress" didn't pay much attention to the series...)

[/ QUOTE ]

I oversimplified her a little bit, but my point still remains the same. Compare her to, say, Minmei from Macross. The similarities are pretty darn obvious.

Also, inevitably, she does need to be "saved" numerous times.

[Nani]

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
Lamhirh of the Stars said:
You needed a choice that read something like: "I expect 'decent' in all categories, plus at least one thing, in any category, that sticks out as new / striking / different / interesting / attention-grabbing."

[/ QUOTE ]

That was openly implied, I'd say. He didn't say "What two things are so important that nothing else matters at all?" It was just "What things are most important to you in an anime?" There was no sense of "these are all that is necessary".


[/ QUOTE ]

Yup. I was hoping to explain it in fewer words with my initial reply...but I guess more were necessary. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[Nani]

[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
While there are 82+ school boy mecha save the planet stories (no offense to those who like those shows) there are less shows like Twelve Kingdoms and Berserk.

Now copying an already existing myth or story is FINE, considering if it has never been done before in anime, and done extremely little in all other forms of media.

Basically copying a story that's already been copied several dozen times before in anime is not as original as copying a story that has never been done in anime and done very little in literature, movie, and whatever else.


[/ QUOTE ]

While I almost agree with your statements I think my level of "original" falls a little higher on the grade. What I mean is, if we look at originality as a continuum--completely artificial I know, but bear with me--from completely original to horribly trite, then your version of originality would fall in the middle.

I, on the other hand, would far more prefer it to go a bit further. Some of my favorite anime, A Place Promised and Paranoia Agent are about as close to completely original as you can get. Which is something that I far prefer to many recycled stories. Not to say a little recycling isn't bad.

RahXephon and Twelve Kingdoms both recycle some stories. RahXephon is classic mecha-but its done very well with a nice interweaving of plotlines, characters, and direction.

Twelve Kingdoms, which you'd probably classify as original since you think its premise is rarely done, I see as heavily recycled when it comes to its basic premise. Magical Girl drawn into another world which is based on Chinese Mythology. Fushigi Yuugi, to a lesser extent Escaflowne, and a few others that haven't made it over to the R1 have similar premises. Escaflowne is not based on Chinese Mythology, but almost everything else is the same. What sets 12K apart and makes it good is not originality, just like RahXephon, but a well written story that analyzes human nature and politics on a level rarely seen in anime. In that way, I guess, you could classify it as very original.

However, with that said...when it comes to new anime I want them to be far more original than either RahXephon or Twelve Kingdoms. Why? I'm not sure any new anime could compare with either of them. In mecha we have NGE and RahXephon. One visceral and emotional, the other intellectual and beautiful. Twelve Kingdoms, well, I can't imagine any other magical girl in a distant land matching its epic quality.

Is surpassing any of them possible? Sure. However, I'd far more enjoy 6 original anime that are good than 5 retreads that fail and 1 that makes it.

As for the legends thing about something like Dionysus. Hmm, well, I'm not a fan of greek mythology since they're more about "themes" and "freudian psychoanalysis made story" rather than well rounded characters and natural human to human conflict. I'm just not a fan of recreating most legends, as the originals were written in a different era and, though people may argue this, are not truly timeless. Our sensibilities are different now and we just don't enjoy such myths as people did back then.

[balthier2012]

[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
As for the legends thing about something like Dionysus. Hmm, well, I'm not a fan of greek mythology since they're more about "themes" and "freudian psychoanalysis made story" rather than well rounded characters and natural human to human conflict. I'm just not a fan of recreating most legends, as the originals were written in a different era and, though people may argue this, are not truly timeless. Our sensibilities are different now and we just don't enjoy such myths as people did back then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno why you use "we" in your last sentence. I enjoy ancient, mythological, and historical stories soooo much more then anything set in present day. Infact present day stories usually bore me, because I already live in this time frame and want to see something different.

As for the rest of what you said. I pretty much agree.

[Nani]

[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
As for the legends thing about something like Dionysus. Hmm, well, I'm not a fan of greek mythology since they're more about "themes" and "freudian psychoanalysis made story" rather than well rounded characters and natural human to human conflict. I'm just not a fan of rec
reating most legends, as the originals were written in a different era and, though people may argue this, are not truly timeless. Our sensibilities are different now and we just don't enjoy such myths as people did back then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno why you use "we" in your last sentence. I enjoy ancient, mythological, and historical stories soooo much more then anything set in present day. Infact present day stories usually bore me, because I already live in this time frame and want to see something different.

As for the rest of what you said. I pretty much agree.

[/ QUOTE ]
I meant it as people in our era as "we". Pronoun use is so troubling sometimes. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[balthier2012]

[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
As for the legends thing about something like Dionysus. Hmm, well, I'm not a fan of greek mythology since they're more about "themes" and "freudian psychoanalysis made story" rather than well rounded characters and natural human to human conflict. I'm just not a fan of rec
reating most legends, as the originals were written in a different era and, though people may argue this, are not truly timeless. Our sensibilities are different now and we just don't enjoy such myths as people did back then.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dunno why you use "we" in your last sentence. I enjoy ancient, mythological, and historical stories soooo much more then anything set in present day. Infact present day stories usually bore me, because I already live in this time frame and want to see something different.

As for the rest of what you said. I pretty much agree.

[/ QUOTE ]
I meant it as people in our era as "we". Pronoun use is so troubling sometimes. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well as a person in our era and one who prefers historical, ancient, and mythological settings versus boring bland as shit present day cars and tall buildings, my existence makes your statement false. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

You can't be speaking for everyone of today's era that watches anime and say that they all prefer present day stories versus myths and legends. It's just not true. Some prefer the boring present day shit (I describe it that way because we live in present day, we are accustomed to all the shit that happens in our time frame, so it is damn boring seeing it over and over ) and those who have an enlightened spirit prefer the great enchanting mythological stories and legends. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Sorry if I'm a little harsh about that, I just don't understand why modern day stuff is interesting. I mean sci-fi I can understand because it's unique and different then the today that we live in, just as mythological is unique, but there is nothing at all new, diverse, unique, ect that attracts interest of something we are already accustomed to in a modern show. Ohyea, I must note: Comedies do not apply because comedy is all about character interaction and not "setting" nearly as much as a drama, adventure, and others alike.

For example a drama is more dramatic in a wasteland world of genetically mutated animals and war raging cultures. While, it would be less dramatic in pleasantville /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[aquapermanence]

[ QUOTE ]
Balthier said:
Sorry if I'm a little harsh about that, I just don't understand why modern day stuff is interesting. I mean sci-fi I can understand because it's unique and different then the today that we live in, just as mythological is unique, but there is nothing at all new, diverse, unique, ect that attracts interest of something we are already accustomed to in a modern show.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not to speak for everyone on the subject, but I can at least give an example of the appeal of a story set in a modern, realistic world.

"Relevance." While it's true that you can set most stories in any place or time, choosing a setting that coincides with the viewer's frame of reference encourages the viewer to consider the consequences of the narrative as it applies to their own life. For example, watching a crime drama that takes place in New York or D.C. certainly has a lot more immediate impact on my feelings about crime and law enforcement than, say, one that takes place in France in the Middle Ages.

"Verisimilitude." For most TV writers, set designers, etc., it's easier to and more convincing to create a detailed fictional world if it's based largely on objects and ideas that exist in abundance in reality. Would a drama about office politics be as convincing if it were set in the near future on a space station? Maybe. But choosing that setting invites the scrutiny of at least two more groups of complainants: potential viewers who demand absolute realism in the portrayal of space settings, and potential viewers who would have given the show a chance but for the fact that it's set in such a strange location. For the extra effort that would go into creating such a show, a TV executive might think it wiser to choose the one with a larger potential interested audience.

"Preconception." In the U.S., science-fiction and fantasy have an associated stigma of fluffiness and un-believability. While some works have done their part to help change public opinion by representing believable, serious, and touching stories set in fantastical locations, there's still a large group of viewers that just simply won't risk watching a show, believing they'll inevitably be disappointed by a heavy reliance on cheesy costumes and special effects. It's sad, I know, but it's the situation we face. The worst reality show will probably score better ratings than the best sci-fi, simply because a larger audience is more willing to accept what they see on the former than the latter.

At the same time, mythology doesn't necessitate that a work takes place in ancient times, in a foreign land, or involves incredible powers. The only requirement of the genre of mythology is that the story it tells sets a basis for ideas of why things are how they are. The recent anime Monster, for example, which takes place in the mid-1990's, could be considered a form of mythology through its creation of iconic characters whose particular struggles reveal moral and naturalistic truths, despite the utter absence of deities and super-powers.

[Fencedude]

[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
Beautiful songstress that looks pretty but doesn't do much else but become a damsel in distress? Well, not quite a Gundam mainstay...but definitely common in anime.

[/ QUOTE ]

Err...generally the "beautiful songstress" doesn't end up organizing an resistance movement and commanding a battle fleet in the final battle...

(anyone who calls Lacus a "Damsel in Distress" didn't pay much attention to the series...)

[/ QUOTE ]

I oversimplified her a little bit, but my point still remains the same. Compare her to, say, Minmei from Macross. The similarities are pretty darn obvious.

Also, inevitably, she does need to be "saved" numerous times.

[/ QUOTE ]

Gah?

Beyond the singing aspect Minmei and Lacus are NOTHING alike.

If you want to compare Lacus to a Macross character she's more like Mylene Jenius from Macross 7...but most of the additional similarity there comes from hair color.

[balthier2012]

Verisimilitude, isn't that the opposing reason for watching something? I'd think most watch anime or TV because "reality" is boring enough. WHy would you want to escape reality by watching TV only to watch something similar to your own reality? Yes, it would impact some more (not me) emotionally because it relates to them, their location, and whatever else but the level of entertainment is greatly diminished unless that person is entertained by things that already go on around them. In other words, watch the fuckin news if you enjoy that shit!

As for preconception, that large group of viewers who prefer to watch reality TV most likely don't watch anime as it is. I mean the term anime in general suggests animation versus real human beings. So they're already taking one step away from the reality they desire so much. However don't get me wrong I understand the point your trying to prove. I can't stand shows that have blatant unrealistic suggestions. It's true that putting something in a sci-fi setting will lower the chances of believability but it's up to the writer to make it believable with deep intellect and ability to adapt his/her own writing to the understanding one would have under such futuristic settings. In other words use present day formulas combined with "recently discovered" new world technology to explain why flying a space craft across the galaxy in 30 seconds makes perfect sense /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif Although I'm not one for sci-fi as much as I am for ancient mythical stories like Twelve Kingdoms (forgive me if mythical doesn't correlate with 12k itself) but I feel that the creatures such as the Kirin represent alternate forms of unicorns and the whole thing itself just feels packed with myth, I have to describe it that way.

Now making the past believable isn't nearly as hard as a futuristic setting because it's already happened and the writer doesn't have to prove believability for technology that doesn't already exist, but merely circumstance and culture. However, I don't watch those shows for a history lesson, but to be fascinated with a hard world breeding hard people racked with story, plot twists, and other such things. I just enjoy the lack of technology and abundance of improvising. Because technology is the representation of having things done for you, while lack of represents harder life. Example: when a mecha suddenly stops moving, the character in it cries "why?! plz don't do this to me now!" pounds on the controls and "bam" its up and running again. That is a cop-out. An extremely basic ploy of creating suspense within the viewier (a very young viewer) while those operating on a much more intelligent level already knowing what will happen and having seen this technique done a thousand times experiences absolutely no suspense but instead annoyance. While a story say 2000BC in a sword fight it breaks in half, the character has to improvise beyond overcoming an emotional breakdown, but using alternate combat style, finding a different weapon, or anything other then the sword fixing itself.

Okay, sorry for the run off about why I prefer past to future but just thought I'd explain why.

Overall, an ancient or futuristic setting is harder to make believable, but it's fully possible. If the same idiot writer made all three, obviously the one in todays time frame would be the most realistic because an idiot writer is incapable of convincing viewers of anything. So for either a past or futuristic setting to be successful it takes a good writer, however IMHO it would then beat out any present day setting because it contains so many simplistic things as well as ancient / futuristic ways of thinking that don't already swarm around us in our daily lives such as a story set in present day.

[Nani]

I think you wildly misinterpreted my statement. I was talking about greek myths and recreating such myths. In a broader sense I meant recreating any legend or myth. Why not just create a new one?

Also, I made no reference to actual time, when I said modern I was talking about style, plot, and what not. For example, how we characterize people now is very different than the characters in greek myths. They often represented an Idea or Emotion, while we just don't like that nowadays. It's not a reference at all to what time period a story could be set in. I love the anime Emma which is set in 1800's Europe. It's an amazingly original anime that has a lot of the same themes as a Jane Austen work.

Also, when I say "we" I mean it as a generality, obviously there are exceptions. I stand by the statement, though, since I'm guessing better than 95% of people wouldn't really enjoy rehashes of greek mythology.

[balthier2012]

[ QUOTE ]
Nani said:
I think you wildly misinterpreted my statement. I was talking about greek myths and recreating such myths. In a broader sense I meant recreating any legend or myth. Why not just create a new one?

Also, I made no reference to actual time, when I said modern I was talking about style, plot, and what not. For example, how we characterize people now is very different than the characters in greek myths. They often represented an Idea or Emotion, while we just don't like that nowadays. It's not a reference at all to what time period a story could be set in. I love the anime Emma which is set in 1800's Europe. It's an amazingly original anime that has a lot of the same themes as a Jane Austen work.

Also, when I say "we" I mean it as a generality, obviously there are exceptions. I stand by the statement, though, since I'm guessing better than 95% of people wouldn't really enjoy rehashes of greek mythology.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, I mistook your "modern" for culture and setting not characterizing and style, as you intended. Anyways I agree with you instead of taking an already existing myth or legend a new one would be great (if the writer is great). However since anime is created from some form of written work, I was just saying how it could copy things that haven't been copied as much. Making it more original then hundreds of other shows. When an anime copies another anime, that is as bad as it can get. But when an anime copies a story that has only been made into two books and 0 mainstream movies, it's still pretty original. Anyways I pretty much agree with what you said. And my last response was in reply to aquapermanence.