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View Full Version : Rozen Maiden Traumend, ending discussion (thread 2)


something
02-12-2006, 02:52 PM
Forgive me for posting this twice, but seeing as how after my post the other thread is at 199 replies, I figure that if anyone replies the thread will be OVER anyway, so I thought it would be better to just make a new one. [ the original thread is here (http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=1&Number=1095078&page=0&view= collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) ]. Maybe this thread won't go anywhere, but if there are still people up for discussing it, this would be necessary anyway.

Anyway, here is what I said in the other thread:
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Well! I knew it would be good but it took me so damn long to get around to it! Anyway, I marathoned eps 5-12 last night, from ?am to 9am, and just got up after 4 hours sleep to shovel away a foot and a half of snow, so forgive me if I ask stupid questions or seem like I missed something obvious.

Alright, we can start off with the basic gushing praise, because, really, why not? Traumend was fantastic, Suiseiseki is a goddess, Kanaria is adorably silly, and in general the show did an amazing job splitting time rather equitably among the seven dolls, and in only 12 episodes to boot. The pacing and writing for this show are really pretty outstanding.

Oh, and the op and ed animations are beautiful and engaging and the music sets the mood wonderfully. I love the latter part of the op where they zoom out from Suiseiseki and Souseiseki holding hands, then Kanaria and Hina Ichigo crossing roses, and then switch into that surreal tea party with Jun and Shinku <3 it

Alright, so, the show... I have to say it surprised me. Oh sure, I knew since long ago that Suigintou was returning (after all this time, do you really think I could avoid such spoilers?) so lots of surprise was lost there, but I do have to say it didn't play out like I expected. When she started to care for Megu I thought maybe she would change her ways, or at least show less glee in thrashing her sisters. She didn't, but that was fine, because they still explained why she acted like she did -- because her love for their Father was still pure and intense, and because Barasuishou was deceiving everyone from the start.

Anyway, getting to the ending, I'm pretty surprised at how it ended. Sure, it seemed too convenient that their Father would be Enju, but then again it's not like they didn't drop a hundred hints in that direction before "revealing" it. But for Enju to just be Rozen's apprentice was a nice twist, and for Barasuishou to be his revenge against Rozen tied things up nicely.

Also surprising: -- it didn't just go, "Hey, Souseiseki and Hina Ichigo just come back happily!" It quite explicitly states that Shinku has some struggles ahead of her to get those two back. What that struggle is exactly, I am not 100% sure. What we do see is Laplace's Demon (a character who I still don't understand -- whose side is he on?) in possession of their Roza Mystica, along with a (resurrected?) Barasuishou. So, who is this Barasuishou? The real one created by Rozen? I suppose Enju made a fake Barasuishou to use as his revenge, and the real Barasuishou is still out there, perhaps not awakened yet? If so, why is she with Laplace's Demon?

Lots of questions, and I did pay attention during the show (as much as my brain would allow at 9am), but I definitely missed something. I'll read this thread after I post as well, but the questions are still there if I don't see an answer. Of course, it figures this is like, post 198 so this thread is gonna be locked in no time and this whole post will be lost to the abyss =P Meh!

Anyway, after checking out this thread I'll be updating my Most Wanted list. Hmm, where to put Rozen Maiden...

Edit: I have to add -- thank god this show didn't go the fanservice route. Fanservice in the sense of trying to be sexy I mean. That would have been creepy beyond belief and utterly ruined the show.

So, three cheers and a mountain of kudos to the creators for not trying to pander to that crowd, whatever that crowd is, and for maintaining some integrity with respect to their characters. I mean, not that fanservice automatically demeans a character's existence, but in this show... just... no. It would not have worked at all.

The closest they came was that late series episode in the first season, and that was, while still sort of weird, still very tastefully done. I'm quite impressed.

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And then I just replied to the popularity poll post with:
[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
ArseneLupinIII said:
Rozen Maiden ~träµ*end~ Popularity Contest Results - TBS Official Site (http://www.tbs.co.jp/rozen-maiden/05special/15ninki-kekka.html)

01.?Suiseiseki

[/ QUOTE ]

Damn straight, the Japanese know what's up~

Suiseiseki amuses me like nobody's business. Easily my favorite character.

[/ QUOTE ]

something
02-12-2006, 03:06 PM
Reply to Gersen from old thread, his was post #200

[ QUOTE ]
Gersen said:
Maybe it's the translation I watched that was wrong but IRC it's said that Hina Ichigo and Souseiseki won't be comming back (because they were defeated by real Rozen Maiden) and that Shinku's "struggle" is that she will have to live with that, not that there was a way to bring them back

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm, I'd have to go back and see the wording again, but I did actually take it to mean that "Shinku's struggle" would be getting their Rosa Mysticae back, without Father's help. And Suiseiseki and Nori looked too happy at the end there with Hina Ichigo and Souseiseki for the two to not come back.

Hmm, well, barring a season three I'll tell myself that Shinku gets them back, but if we do get a season three, then we'll see what happens =P

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For me he is some sort of "referee" for the Alice Game, he is on nobody's side (except maybe Rozen), he is just counting the points.

[/ QUOTE ]

What confuses me there though, is that he was quite happily (and deviously) working with Enju and aiding the false Barasuishou. Maybe he's a bit of a rogue element and isn't controlled by Rozen -- or at least, has his own way of doing things, regardless of what Rozen specifically wants. After all, Rozen did go and tell Shinku at the end that there are ways to become Alice besides the Alice Game. If he were so hell bent on seeing his "daughters" beat the crap out of each other, I don't think he would have said that.

[ QUOTE ]
IMHO it's the real Barasuishou. When they first meet her (the fake one), the other Rozen Maiden reconize her or at least knew who Barasuishou was, so it prove that there is a real Rozen Maiden with that name.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm guessing. They did know there was a seventh sister, but they had never seen her so they couldn't know it was really just Enju's creation.

[ QUOTE ]
I have too something that bother me after watching the show. Hina Ichigo and Souseiseki can't be repaired because they were defeated by a real Rozen Maiden, Ok, so... why was it possible to repair Suigintou ? she was defeated by Shinku in the first season like Hina Ichigo was, so she should have lost her rosa mystica too. Or maybe it doesn't count because she didn't had a medium at that time ?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I think Father intentionally left the burden on Shinku to get their Rosa Mysticae back and revive them... somehow. Again, we'll see. I just don't think they'd leave Hina Ichigo and Souseiseki "dead" for good. The show doesn't pull its punches or anything, but I just don't believe that it would go that route with them, for good.

EmperorBrandon
02-12-2006, 03:10 PM
I guess since this is ending discussion, there's no need of spoiler tags... Anyway,...

[ QUOTE ]
Gersen said:

Maybe it's the translation I watched that was wrong but IRC it's said that Hina Ichigo and Souseiseki won't be comming back (because they were defeated by real Rozen Maiden) and that Shinku's "struggle" is that she will have to live with that, not that there was a way to bring them back

[/ QUOTE ]

I wonder about that. Shinku's statement on Hinaichigo and Souseiseki seemed quite ambiguous from what I remember (I even went back and watched it over again), but I don't know if that was the intention or if the translation I got was just poor (and it was not meant to be ambiguous).

[ QUOTE ]

I have too something that bother me after watching the show. Hina Ichigo and Souseiseki can't be repaired because they were defeated by a real Rozen Maiden, Ok, so... why was it possible to repair Suigintou ? she was defeated by Shinku in the first season like Hina Ichigo was, so she should have lost her rosa mystica too. Or maybe it doesn't count because she didn't had a medium at that time ?


[/ QUOTE ]

Souseiseki never had a medium (AFAIR) either, so then that explanation wouldn't work (I mean, if we claim they are both unrevivable, then it would be inconsistent between her and Hinaichigo). I think Shinku mentioned that she refused to take Suigintou's Rosa Mystica after she defeated her.

EmperorBrandon
02-12-2006, 03:21 PM
[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:

What confuses me there though, is that he was quite happily (and deviously) working with Enju and aiding the false Barasuishou. Maybe he's a bit of a rogue element and isn't controlled by Rozen -- or at least, has his own way of doing things, regardless of what Rozen specifically wants.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, Laplace's Demon seems very enigmatic, but that's how he's supposed to be, I guess. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif I've mentioned it before, but the way he was acting striked me as Drosselmeyer-like (Princess Tutu) in that he was trying to manipulate a scenario for his own amusement (could be wrong in that regard, but just how he edged me).

something
02-12-2006, 03:31 PM
[ QUOTE ]
EmperorBrandon said:
Souseiseki never had a medium (AFAIR) either

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. I guess that's true. At the very least, we never see the old man in pain when Souseiseki fights, and I don't remember seeing a ring on his fingers at all. Still, interesting that Souseiseki fought on even terms with Suigintou (who had a medium even) for at least a short time.

Gersen
02-12-2006, 03:38 PM
[ QUOTE ]
EmperorBrandon said:
Souseiseki never had a medium (AFAIR) either,

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe Granpa (or Granma) was Souseiseki medium.

Gersen

Gersen
02-12-2006, 03:54 PM
[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
What confuses me there though, is that he was quite happily (and deviously) working with Enju and aiding the false Barasuishou. Maybe he's a bit of a rogue element and isn't controlled by Rozen -- or at least, has his own way of doing things, regardless of what Rozen specifically wants. After all, Rozen did go and tell Shinku at the end that there are ways to become Alice besides the Alice Game. If he were so hell bent on seeing his "daughters" beat the crap out of each other, I don't think he would have said that.

[/ QUOTE ]

IMHO he helped Enju and fake Barasuishou because it was a good way of forcing the other Rozen Maiden to start the alice game. The only thing the Laplace deamon might want is Alice birth and he probably doesnt care if it happen because of the Alice game or by using the "other way" that Rozen mention to Shinku.

Gersen

something
02-12-2006, 03:59 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Gersen said:
IMHO he helped Enju and fake Barasuishou because it was a good way of forcing the other Rozen Maiden to start the alice game. The only thing the Laplace deamon might want is Alice birth and he probably doesnt care if it happen because of the Alice game or by using the "other way" that Rozen mention to Shinku.

[/ QUOTE ]

Slightly off topic but I've been meaning to ask -- does anyone know what his name means? What is "Laplace" (if an adjective), or, if the construction is meant in the possessive (with the 'no'), who/where/what is Laplace?

Fencedude
02-12-2006, 04:03 PM
About the "real" Bara Suishou.

Her name was recently revealed in the manga, it is not Bara Suishou, but <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Kirakishou, Snow Flower Crystal.</span>

something
02-12-2006, 04:08 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
About the "real" Bara Suishou.

Her name was recently revealed in the manga, it is not Bara Suishou, but <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Kirakishou, Snow Flower Crystal.</span>

[/ QUOTE ]

About the manga... it sounds like the manga, since it's ahead, is the "original"? I had never really looked into it so for some reason I thought it was an original anime story.

Fencedude
02-12-2006, 04:12 PM
The manga is the original.

Oh, chew on this for a bit. The manga is done by Peach-Pit, the same group that brought us DearS.

EmperorBrandon
02-12-2006, 04:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:

Slightly off topic but I've been meaning to ask -- does anyone know what his name means? What is "Laplace" (if an adjective), or, if the construction is meant in the possessive (with the 'no'), who/where/what is Laplace?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Laplace" seems to be the name of a French mathematician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon) going by Wikipedia.

something
02-12-2006, 04:43 PM
[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
The manga is the original.

Oh, chew on this for a bit. The manga is done by Peach-Pit, the same group that brought us DearS.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah right, I remember the name Peach Pit from the ops. Heh, well, guess that just means they're, uh, flexible =P

something
02-12-2006, 04:46 PM
[ QUOTE ]
EmperorBrandon said:
"Laplace" seems to be the name of a French mathematician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laplace%27s_demon) going by Wikipedia.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm

[ QUOTE ]
Wikipedia said:
Laplace strongly believed in causal determinism, which is expressed in the following quote from the introduction to the Essai:

"We may regard the present state of the universe as the effect of its past and the cause of its future. An intellect which at a certain moment would know all forces that set nature in motion, and all positions of all items of which nature is composed, if this intellect were also vast enough to submit these data to analysis, it would embrace in a single formula the movements of the greatest bodies of the universe and those of the tiniest atom; for such an intellect nothing would be uncertain and the future just like the past would be present before its eyes."
This intellect is often referred to as Laplace's demon (in the same vein as Maxwell's demon).

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, although I feel like it's a case of some Japanese writer saying "hey this sounds cool!" rather than really drawing a real connection between the character and the concept. Laplace's Demon in RM:T certainly seemed to always know what was going on when nobody else did, true. But the name is a bit of a stretch, although not wholly rediculous at least.

EmperorBrandon
02-12-2006, 05:04 PM
[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:

Interesting, although I feel like it's a case of some Japanese writer saying "hey this sounds cool!" rather than really drawing a real connection between the character and the concept. Laplace's Demon in RM:T certainly seemed to always know what was going on when nobody else did, true. But the name is a bit of a stretch, although not wholly rediculous at least.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe not a definite connection with the concept (at least as it's defined there), but still a subtle one at least, especially as far as the Alice Game seems to be concerned.

When I look it up in Japanese Wikipedia, they have the main entry on Laplace's demon as ラプラスã?®æ‚ªé*” (http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%83%A9%E3%83%97%E3%83%A9%E3%82%B9%E3%81%AE%E6%8 2%AA%E9%AD%94) (rapurasu no akuma), which is a little different than with Rozen Maiden character which is written as ラプラスã?®é*” (rapurasu no ma). Guess leaving out the kanji for "evil" to make his role more ambiguous... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Jigen_Daisuke
02-14-2006, 05:20 AM
Rozen Maiden Celebrates Valentine's Day: 1 (http://kuma.250free.com/RozenMaidenTraumend/RozenMaidenValentineChocolate.jpg) 2 (http://kuma.250free.com/RozenMaidenTraumend/SuiseisekiAndSouseiseki_HappyValentine.gif) 3 (http://kuma.250free.com/RozenMaidenTraumend/Souseiseki_BeMyValentine.jpg)

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Rozen Maiden ~träumend~ Popularity Contest Results - TBS Official Site (http://forums.animeondvd.com/showthreaded.php?Cat=&amp;Number=1275004&amp;page=0&amp;view=&amp; sb=5&amp;o=&amp;fpart=&amp;vc=1)

[ QUOTE ]
ArseneLupinIII said:
Rozen Maiden ~träumend~ Popularity Contest Results - TBS Official Site (http://www.tbs.co.jp/rozen-maiden/05special/15ninki-kekka.html)

01.*Suiseiseki
02.*Suigintou
03.*Souseiseki
04.*Shinku
05.*Hinaichigo
06.*Barasuishou
07.*Kanaria
08.*Kunkun
09.*Tomoe
10.*Jun
11.*Nori
12.*Enju
12.*Rapurasu no Ma (Laplace Demon)
14.*Megu
14.*Shirosaki
16.*Micchan

[/ QUOTE ]

Dagger
02-15-2006, 04:34 PM
[ QUOTE ]
ArseneLupinIII said:
Rozen Maiden Celebrates Valentine's Day: 3 (http://kuma.250free.com/RozenMaidenTraumend/Souseiseki_BeMyValentine.jpg)

[/ QUOTE ]
Allow me to be the first to thank you for posting this... /images/graemlins/noseblef.gif

02-15-2006, 05:06 PM
[ QUOTE ]
ArseneLupinIII said:
02.?Suigintou


[/ QUOTE ]

REPRESENT

/images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

pianocello
02-15-2006, 07:20 PM
[ QUOTE ]
ArseneLupinIII said:
Rozen Maiden Celebrates Valentine's Day: 1 (http://kuma.250free.com/RozenMaidenTraumend/RozenMaidenValentineChocolate.jpg)

[/ QUOTE ]

Shinku looks like Nishino from Ichigo 100%

pianocello
04-16-2006, 09:07 PM
Just finished this and at this point, Rozen Maiden Traumend is my No 1 anime of 2006. Great characters,great voice-acting, great music and atmosphere. I need those dolls now!

My only problem would be how rushed the ending was. I hope the sequel fixes that. One thing that puzzles me - <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>how could the dolls mistake Enju as Rozen? </span>

BTW, episode 10 made me break down in tears - the only episode of any anime this year to do that so far.