Kannazuki No Miko, Gun x Sword , Negima, Naruto [Archive]

DiGiKerot

04-30-2006, 04:35 PM

Negima isn't that bad. The first episode is pretty painful (though the DVD version is an improvement - it looks a wee bit better), and most of the first half of the series is highly mediocre, and the animation isn't great to say the least. The second half, after they changed most the staff, is actually pretty decent - they go well off the manga, admittedly, but there are a couple of wonderful episodes, and the rest are at least entertaining. A few episodes are actually really well animated as well.

I tend to avoid talking about Kannazuki these days - I think its entertaining, but only really in a silly, trashy self-mockingly overmelodramic fashion, and I really don't get the hyperbole some spout about the series. Certain plot elements really leave a bad taste in my mouth as well.

I guess I'd give both a 6.

balthier2012

04-30-2006, 07:34 PM

Well I'll rate two..

Gun X Sword - 9 - I've never seen the show nor a trailer, but the word gun and sword are in the title. That said it's not why it's 9, but because it's $12.81 from DVDPacific for volume 1 with the artbox. If the summary and trailer is interesting to you it's definitly worth the risk to check out the first volume. You could always resell on ebay for the same price with artbox.

Naruto - 9 - First off you have to be into shonen fighting animes. So far I'm loving Naruto of what I've seen on Cartoon Network. I don't know how / why this show was ever compared to DBZ. This is alot faster paced, most fights so far only lasted about 1 episode and there's plenty of interesting concepts going around like Naruto having a demon inside of him wanting to come out and Sasuke getting revenge . The forest of death episodes have recently sparked my interest even more.

Although it's a very long show, it could easily get dragged out later on for all I know. I'm definitly getting the first two uncut boxes though. You might check it out as well like $30 for 13 eps.

Speedy Boris

04-30-2006, 07:59 PM

I've only seen six episodes of Kannazuki but I'm fairly indifferent towards it. The mecha portion of the show felt tacked on, the dialog felt like it was taped together from various romance shows (in other words, very little of the yuri romance felt natural or realistic), and I didn't think the villains were that well-developed.

It's got nice animation, character designs, background art, and music, though, I'll give it that.

something

04-30-2006, 08:06 PM

Kannazuki is one of the better shows in recent years, and I'm so happy it's hitting DVD now (and on only three discs too). The first episode had me laughing my ass off at the utter absurdity, but by the end I was completely mermerized by the show in a number of ways, and I absolutely love the ending. It was high on my top 10 most wanted list until it was licensed, and while it's not an all-time top 10 favorites title, it's certainly one of the better shows I've seen. Get it asap.

Fencedude

04-30-2006, 08:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Speedy Boris said:
I've only seen six episodes of Kannazuki but I'm fairly indifferent towards it. The mecha portion of the show felt tacked on, the dialog felt like it was taped together from various romance shows (in other words, very little of the yuri romance felt natural or realistic), and I didn't think the villains were that well-developed.

It's got nice animation, character designs, background art, and music, though, I'll give it that.

[/ QUOTE ]

You need to watch two more episodes.

ADC

04-30-2006, 09:18 PM

christianlf

04-30-2006, 09:36 PM

Naruto can be a lot of fun if you're in the mood for a shounen fighting series. It's hardly original, though. Like many Shounen Jump based manga, it borrows heavily from its predecessors, but it does a lot of things right. It can be a bit up and down at times, but it has some truly entertaining moments and possibly the coolest looking fight in all of anime. It also has some moments of humour, with some working better than others. And it has drama and a real coherent story, which is always a plus.

I would warn against the filler episodes, though. They are godawful. So, judging just based on the episodes that follow the manga, I'd say it's a solid 7 action series. I can't recommend anything past episode 135, as it's still all in filler, but when it returns to the manga arc, I'm hopeful it will return to its former form.

So, if you like Jump anime like DB/DBZ, OP, HxH, YYH, etc, there's a good chance you'll find Naruto to your liking.

Puppet Master

05-01-2006, 12:31 AM

Gun Sword is a series I've seen very little of so all I can say is that based on the first episode it's weird.

Naruto I would give maybe a 4. I can't give it a high rating to I'm still completely unimpressed by it even after trying to see why it's so popular. I only watch it because i'ts on right before I leave for work on Fridays.

pianocello

05-02-2006, 08:39 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Avarice said:
How would you rate the following shows (Kannazuki No Miko, Gun x Sword, Negima, Naruto) overall from 1-10 with 10 being the highest and why? I know Negima's been bashed a lot but what do you think of it when not comparing it with the manga?

[/ QUOTE ]

Here are my ratings:
KnM: 9
Gun x Sword: 9
Negima: 9
Naruto: 3

Here are some comments of mine:
Kannazuki no Miko
First off, I would like to say that this has one of the all-time greatest anime endings ever. It will move you to tears. This show also takes the whole shoujoai genre and elevates it to unknown-of-height. In case you're wondering why we're suddenly seeing a lot of shoujoai anime, it is because of this wonderful anime. I should also mention that the character development and growth is also amazing. Not to mention the wonderful theme songs by KOTOKO. The only reason why I didn't give this a 10 is Sohma's "AAAAAHHHHHH" which gets annoying after a while. Strongly recommended if you are not homophobic.

Gun x Sword
Admittedly this takes a while to get going as the 1st few episodes may seem fillerish (and later on you realize that they are not really fillers) but once the Clawed Man shows up, the story kicks into high gear and doesn't look back once with one of the most incredible extended buildups to the climatic ending complete with an epilogue. Music and voice-acting is superb. Did I also mention that Fasalina is arguably the greatest villain's henchwoman ever? Strongly recommended if you don't mind the goofy first few episodes.

Negima
You will enjoy this best if you are not like some of those asshats who are always going on "The manga is always better" and proceed to whine endlessly if any anime scene doesn't follow the manga exactly. While admittedly the beginning is a bit shaky, once the story diverges from the manga, this develops into one of the most incredibly dramatic stories that will move you into tears. Did I also mention that this has some of the most incredibly lovable cast that you won't stop caring about? Highly recommended if you are not one of those snobbish manga purists.

Naruto
For a shounen fighting show, this isn't very good unless you are one of those people who are always going "DBZ RulZ. Everything else SuCKs!" Stupid filler, poor character relationship development and childish dumb humor. Not recommended.

Johnny

05-02-2006, 09:39 AM

Naruto - 9 or 10 for sure. Of course, there'll be the haters who will completely disagree with me, but for it's genre it's one of, if not the best.
I've said it before, but it does a great job of making you think it's just ninjas fighting each other but the story really develops and becomes very addictive. One of it's most strong points is that you get an insight into a lot of characters. Naruto is of course the central character but a lot of the time the story is centred around other characters. They also all have interesting back stories. Gaara for example I didn't really like initially but ended up feeling really sorry for him after learning about his past.

At the end of the day, it depends on your tolerance for the shonen fighting genre. If you've seen DB/DBZ, YYH, Bleach etc and didn't particularly like them then chances are you won't get much out of Naruto. But if you ignore that or if you have an interest in the genre, then you'll find Naruto fits the bill perfectly.
I'd also add that the music used throughout is great aswell. From the upbeat fighting BGM to the stuff used for the slower, more introspective moments, it's all done very well. The OP and ED songs used throughout the series are cool too. I know there is at least one poster here who will completely disagree, but IMO they're pretty much all great.
FWIW, I'm not sure whether I'd pick Naruto or One Piece as being the best example of a shonen series. Personally I think the Naruto anime is better than One Piece, but the OP manga captured me slightly more than Naruto.

Fencedude

05-02-2006, 09:48 AM

[ QUOTE ]
johnny said:
but a lot of the time the story is centred around other characters. They also all have interesting back stories.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahahahahahahahaha!

Thats hilarious!

Funniest thing I've read all day!

SnowfairyX

05-02-2006, 11:47 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
[ QUOTE ]
johnny said:
but a lot of the time the story is centred around other characters. They also all have interesting back stories.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ahahahahahahahaha!

Thats hilarious!

Funniest thing I've read all day!

[/ QUOTE ]
Why don't you try making a more useful comment instead of just being an ass? /images/graemlins/icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyway, to answer the original poster. Of those titles, Naruto is the only one I've seen a good portion of (probably 10-20 episodes somewhere in the middle) and also read a good deal of the manga. I'm not really into shounen anime, but I'm not totally adverse to it either. I just don't seek them out usually. Well, based on what I've seen of Naruto so far (and the manga), I really enjoy it and would give it a solid 8. I basically agree with all that Johnny said. All the characters are pretty interesting in some way or another.

If the series wasn't so long, I wouldn't think twice of picking up the upcoming uncut 13-episode box set and of course plan on collecting the entire series eventually after that. I'm still planning to, but this is probably going to end up being my largest investment ever in an anime series. I really hope they end it soon /images/graemlins/depresse.gif.

Fencedude

05-02-2006, 11:50 AM

[ QUOTE ]
SnowfairyX said:
[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:

Ahahahahahahahaha!

Thats hilarious!

Funniest thing I've read all day!

[/ QUOTE ]
Why don't you try making a more useful comment instead of just being an ass? /images/graemlins/icon_rolleyes.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Ok, serious comment:

Naruto, while not inherently BAD, does have a number of flaws, and the one which annoyed me the most was how it introduced a large secondary cast, almost all of whom were potentially far more interesting than the main trio, and then proceed to do basically NOTHING with them.

DiGiKerot

05-02-2006, 12:04 PM

[ QUOTE ]
piano_cello_conducting said:
Kannazuki no Miko
First off, I would like to say that this has one of the all-time greatest anime endings ever. It will move you to tears. This show also takes the whole shoujoai genre and elevates it to unknown-of-height. In case you're wondering why we're suddenly seeing a lot of shoujoai anime, it is because of this wonderful anime. I should also mention that the character development and growth is also amazing. Not to mention the wonderful theme songs by KOTOKO. The only reason why I didn't give this a 10 is Sohma's "AAAAAHHHHHH" which gets annoying after a while. Strongly recommended if you are not homophobic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you aren't suggesting that anyone who doesn't like Kannazuki no Miko is homophobic, because if you are I find that a little insulting. I'd probably also say that I kind of feel that many of the shows fans are a little hypocritial given how if Chikane was male she'd probably be really unpopular, but thats probably verging on saying too much.

I don't really see this as having an effect on the number of shoujoai anime being produced either - there were even other shows airing at the same time with very similar themes. I honestly see it more as a distillation of elements popular among hardcore anime fans (the kind you see in Genshiken, and read magazines like Megami and copious amounts of doujin) at the time, given a wee bit of a twist and spiced up with admittedly awesome presentation (the character design, animation and music are all great). Oh, and I fail to see the depth in a show where the OP sequence (absolutely cracking music by the way) pretty much gives the whole story away.

Still, for some bizzare reason I find myself sitting here with a copy of volume one. I think I actually stopped one short of the final episode, so maybe that'll turn the whole thing around when I see it. I kind of doubt it, though.

something

05-02-2006, 06:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
Ok, serious comment:

Naruto, while not inherently BAD, does have a number of flaws, and the one which annoyed me the most was how it introduced a large secondary cast, almost all of whom were potentially far more interesting than the main trio, and then proceed to do basically NOTHING with them.

[/ QUOTE ]

Things would go so much more smoothly if you made your serious comment first, or at least at the same time as your other comments =P Still, I agree with both sides to some degree. There is a huge secondary cast that should get more screentime, but on the other hand it's not like the other characters as a whole are ignored. Yes, Naruto gets the spotlight, obviously. Yes, Sasuke takes up a lot of what is left. Yes, Sakura is quite frustratingly worthless (as of when I stopped, at the license, around ep 123 or so). But I never felt like the balance was all that bad really. Certainly enjoyable enough for me I guess, if I watched 120+ eps. And I'll be buying those 13 ep boxsets too.

Leon_Belmont

05-02-2006, 06:39 PM

I don't know. For support characters who really aren't supposed to be in the spotlight, whole sets of episodes are devoted to their battles in Naruto. If it's truly Naruto and Sasuke's story as the title suggest, they're getting too much of the spotlight if anything.

What pisses me off is the author's phobia of death for these support characters. As the cast continues to grow the focus on each support character can only become thinner.

I would give Naruto a 7 out of 10. It's a must try if you're into shonen fighting shows. You may very well not like it, but other than the fillers, it's fairly solid material, and some of the fights are quite awesome.

Kannuzuki no Miko: 4 out of 10 for me. What's not cliche in the show just comes off as totally cheesy for myself, but I admit to not being much into romance anime. If that blue haired girl was a guy instead, no one would give a damn about this show.

Fencedude

05-02-2006, 06:51 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hot Otak said:
If that blue haired girl was a guy instead, no one would give a damn about this show.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well no shit.

something

05-02-2006, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hot Otak said:
If that blue haired girl was a guy instead, no one would give a damn about this show.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen this sentiment before, but what puzzles me is... is that so wrong? Now granted, you're using hyperbole ("no one"), and ignoring the fact that if Chikane were a guy, the show would have played out very differently, either storywise or at the very least in terms of it's general vibe. But even so, playing along with your claim... again, would that be so wrong? So what if some or even many of the fans liked it less if it wasn't two girls? Does that somehow make the fans enjoyment of it more shallow?

Maybe you think so, and if so, hey whatever, rock on, but I clearly won't be agreeing any time soon.

Leon_Belmont

05-02-2006, 07:02 PM

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
Hot Otak said:
If that blue haired girl was a guy instead, no one would give a damn about this show.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen this sentiment before, but what puzzles me is... is that so wrong? Now granted, you're using hyperbole ("no one"), and ignoring the fact that if Chikane were a guy, the show would have played out very differently, either storywise or at the very least in terms of it's general vibe. But even so, playing along with your claim... again, would that be so wrong? So what if some or even many of the fans liked it less if it wasn't two girls? Does that somehow make the fans enjoyment of it more shallow?

Maybe you think so, and if so, hey whatever, rock on, but I clearly won't be agreeing any time soon.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hell no it's not wrong. Guys are perfectly free to enjoy what they enjoy. And I'd actually be more worried about the guys that don't think that's a turn-on. I mean, if all you can do is watch it anyway, it's not like she's off the market. And two is twice as good as one.

But, well, it's still true.

Speedy Boris

05-02-2006, 09:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said: You need to watch two more episodes.

[/ QUOTE ] Fair enough, but forgive me if I'm a bit skeptical thinking that if the show hasn't made much of an impression on me thus far, that it would suddenly get awesome (and stay awesome) for the second half. I mean, it's certainly possible and I'm not entirely ruling out the possibility, but there have been too many times where I've been burned by a series, thinking it was going to pick up in the second half and it never did. (Or the inverse, starting out great but then getting dull and boring)

Fencedude

05-02-2006, 10:48 PM

You say that, but you haven't seen the Storm of the Silver Moon.

Isuzu Inugami

05-03-2006, 11:21 AM

[ QUOTE ]
DiGiKerot said:
[ QUOTE ]
piano_cello_conducting said:
Kannazuki no Miko
Strongly recommended if you are not homophobic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you aren't suggesting that anyone who doesn't like Kannazuki no Miko is homophobic, because if you are I find that a little insulting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, no, I think the implication was pretty clear that homophobes obviously wouldn't like it for the reason that a homosexual realtionship is so prominent in it.

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably also say that I kind of feel that many of the shows fans are a little hypocritial given how if Chikane was male she'd probably be really unpopular, but thats probably verging on saying too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

I kind of suspect the female Chikane won't be so popular when we get to that point. But really, it's largely a question of understanding what Chikane is trying to do when she (or hypothetically, he) acts as she does. That logic, regardless of the characters' gender, is either understandable or unforgiveable or both depending on one's own nature and the cues one takes from Himeko's own reactions; and I kind of resent being called a hypocrite on it, so there! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif But this idea of "if Chikane were a guy" seems kind of misplaced to me... if she were, the whole nature of the relationship would move from culturally transgressive love to straightforward conventional love triangle. It would be a fundamentally different show.

Suwako Moriya

05-03-2006, 11:52 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hot Otak said:
If that blue haired girl was a guy instead, no one would give a damn about this show.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wouldn't say that, but I will admit it would change the opinions of several. Negative and/or positive. However that's a given. I mean change any aspect of a story and you effect the potential audience. You also effect the story. For example it's kind of hard to have a story about a lonely homeless child if she's replaced by a successful adult business man.

Also why it is always change Chikane to male? Let's take it a step further. Make Himeko male also. Heck let's change the mecha to cardboard boxes. Maybe Souma (I think) should be female. Heck maybe change the entire plot while we're at it.... What?

DiGiKerot

05-03-2006, 11:57 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
[ QUOTE ]
DiGiKerot said:
[ QUOTE ]
piano_cello_conducting said:
Kannazuki no Miko
Strongly recommended if you are not homophobic.

[/ QUOTE ]

I hope you aren't suggesting that anyone who doesn't like Kannazuki no Miko is homophobic, because if you are I find that a little insulting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, no, I think the implication was pretty clear that homophobes obviously wouldn't like it for the reason that a homosexual realtionship is so prominent in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I only mention it because I've seen it worded very strongly that way around here in the past.

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
I kind of suspect the female Chikane won't be so popular when we get to that point. But really, it's largely a question of understanding what Chikane is trying to do when she (or hypothetically, he) acts as she does. That logic, regardless of the characters' gender, is either understandable or unforgiveable or both depending on one's own nature and the cues one takes from Himeko's own reactions; and I kind of resent being called a hypocrite on it, so there! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I'll pick up on this over at the R1 forums once the DVD hits the final volume - its not really the place to have such a discussion really, and I probably should watch the last episode first.

As far as being hypocritial goes, as a huge fan of a certain other show from the same time period I'm more than a little guilty myself anyway (though that show did have a similar male character as well!).

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
But this idea of "if Chikane were a guy" seems kind of misplaced to me... if she were, the whole nature of the relationship would move from culturally transgressive love to straightforward conventional love triangle. It would be a fundamentally different show.

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose that is true in the case of the show as a whole. Honestly, its really more of a general comment on that type of character in anime as a whole - Chikane is just a particularly good example, but there are others, and their universal popularly just confuses me massively.

As I say, though, this discussion is really for time and place.

something

05-03-2006, 01:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Virginia Knights said:
Also why it is always change Chikane to male? Let's take it a step further. Make Himeko male also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hahah, or keep Chikane female and make Himeko male... Dominatrix action!

something

05-03-2006, 01:24 PM

Note: this started as a response just to you, but then became much much more generalized, but I'm not sure where the transition took place, so interpret it however seems best.

The below post actually isn't spoilery at all despite its length, but I'll throw it in tags anyways, since I myself am sensitive about spoilers.

[ QUOTE ]
DiGiKerot said:
I'd probably also say that I kind of feel that many of the shows fans are a little hypocritial given how if Chikane was male she'd probably be really unpopular, but thats probably verging on saying too much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good thing you didn't! ...Oh wait =P

Anyway, what you say completely ignores the interest generated from the novelty/taboo factor. I mean, if Chikane were male... Wait, that's not important. It's completely besides the point because we'd have a very different show with a very different "catch" to it. Because in the end that's all it is, a show, and it's fun, and that's where the moral analysis can generally stop. You're looking at it far too "logically". It's anime, not a friggin ethics class >_< I wouldn't condone some of the behavior in this show from a male or a female in real life. But that goes for most shows, and in real life these situations would, er, not exist. I mean, christ, we have fans of loli hentai around, and it seems like they get far less grief than "Chikane fans" do (not to say they necessarily "deserve" grief because that would be hypocrisy). It just seems like when this show and the other you're alluding to aired, the enthusiasm for the shows was met by a separate wave of "Tsk tsk"-ing and sermons about our inappropriate behavior and hypocrisy and moral depravity and all this other complete and utter nonsense that was disguised as some "necessary" reaction against an overwhelming tide of ignorance.

And holyfuckingshit, it's sort of annoying. Far more annoying than some of the admitted hyperbole spoken about the show, and what are fans if not prone to a bit of exaggeration about shows they love?

But hey, maybe I'm weird that I've never been "offended" by a show or by someone else's enjoyment of something in a show that I might not personally condone. It's just ten times worse when we're treated like wayward children of an angry god, being steered back towards the light by apocolyptic prophets.

Oh shi-, was I exaggerating again? I suppose so. I'll go sit in the corner =P Seriously though, I need to get to class. Rock on you KnM fans, and rock on you dirty morally depraved Chikane fans! I can't wait for Vols. 2-3.

DiGiKerot

05-03-2006, 02:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
It's completely besides the point because we'd have a very different show with a very different "catch" to it. Because in the end that's all it is, a show, and it's fun, and that's where the moral analysis can generally stop.

[/ QUOTE ]

At the end of the day, thats what it comes down to I guess. You are right that, basically, the whole catch of the show is all the girl-on-girl stuff. The whole Chikane thing was really just a side comment, to be honest, and doesn't really sway my opinions on the show either way - I've said umpteen times before, I think its entertaining pap only remarkable in its presentation. I think its over melodramatic to the point of self-parody, particularly the whole yuri angle - its all comes off incredibly overdone to me. The show expects me to take certain elements seriously, but at the same time it makes the villians a failing manga artist and a loli catgirl nurse. This schizophrenic styling and the overt fan pandering just result in a show that I found incredibly funny for all the wrong reasons.

Admittedly, a lot of HiME doesn't seem much better, at least on the surface. HiME had a lot more fun with it, though - it didn't take things too seriously, and it did a lot more within its story and structure than KnM did.

Just because I say I think Chikane fans are hypocrital doesn't mean I particularly have a problem with it - thats not to say I particularly understand why that kind of character is popular (I don't understand why the likes of Belldandy, Aoi or Mizuho are popular either), but I'm about to go around berating the fans about it. I don't really mean the hypocritical comments are particularly slanderous or anything, anyway.

Being completely honest, I just kind of get annoyed when people suggest that people that the only reason people don't like it is because they are homophobic. I admit I completely over-reacted to the comments here, but I find that horrifically condescending. I think there are plenty of reasons why KnM isn't the best show ever, and the yuri element only comes into it because I think its painfully labored.

I should really stop commenting on this show, I always going overboard on it. As it happens, I do actually quite like the show, I just don't think its as great as others make it out to be /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif

Teiresias

05-03-2006, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DiGiKerot said:

I should really stop commenting on this show, I always going overboard on it. As it happens, I do actually quite like the show, I just don't think its as great as others make it out to be /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We went around on this more than year ago, and you said this then too... /images/graemlins/knowital.gif /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

From my perspective, the hypocrisy was coming more from those who got up on their high horses to denounce KnM as the worst thing since MD Geist [by the way, I'm not including you in this group].

Where were their expectations coming from? It was a show about lesbian shrine priestesses who were destined to save the world (or not), and be protected by mech's against the afore-mentioned uber-cat-nurse-mech-chain-villains . Come on!

The suspension-of-disbelief "gland" must've really been malfunctioning!

For the record, and to attempt to respond to the original poster in some way (no matter how tangentally), KnM was a lot of fun: The romance(s) was/were sweet/bitter depending upon your preference; the yuri was overt, and smoking (thereby making senior piano's day, no doubt); the resolution involved a really nice twist--or not, depending upon your interpretation.

And best of all, it was offensive to many of the self- proclaimed anime-intelligentsia! /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif What's not to like?

Oh, by the way, Chikane is a heroine--not a villain! /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/horse.gif

Isuzu Inugami

05-03-2006, 04:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DiGiKerot said:

I only mention it because I've seen it worded very strongly that way around here in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ah, okay. I concede that there are perfectly just reasons to criticise KnM that have nothing to do with homophobia. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[ QUOTE ]

I think I'll pick up on this over at the R1 forums once the DVD hits the final volume - its not really the place to have such a discussion really

[/ QUOTE ]

I suppose.

[ QUOTE ]
and I probably should watch the last episode first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I SUPPOSE!!! =P

DiGiKerot

05-03-2006, 04:42 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
DiGiKerot said:

I should really stop commenting on this show, I always going overboard on it. As it happens, I do actually quite like the show, I just don't think its as great as others make it out to be /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

We went around on this more than year ago, and you said this then too... /images/graemlins/knowital.gif /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I know. I'm obviously just a glutton for punishment. I'm even going to pretend that I'll never comment on the show ever again this time /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

DiGiKerot

05-03-2006, 04:46 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
[ QUOTE ]
DiGiKerot said:
and I probably should watch the last episode first.

[/ QUOTE ]

I SUPPOSE!!! =P

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a firm believer in the fact that the destination doesn't negate the journey when it comes to serial anime - I'm really, really forgiving when it comes to what other consider crappy endings if the rest of the show was great.

I also hold the reverse true, though. Whilst I'm not saying that the greatest ending in the world wouldn't validate a show somewhat, generally speaking a brilliant ending wouldn't make me consider something I consider mediocre to be anything more than mediocre.

Leon_Belmont

05-03-2006, 06:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:

Oh, by the way, Chikane is a heroine--not a villain! /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/horse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It is seldom in life (MAJOR SPOILER) that a rapist is EVER considered a hero.

TheGreenMan

05-03-2006, 06:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hot Otak said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:

Oh, by the way, Chikane is a heroine--not a villain! /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/horse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It is seldom in life (MAJOR SPOILER) that a rapist is EVER considered a hero. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Thomas Convenant

Oh, by the way, Chikane is not a hero. Listen to what Himeko tells her at the end about her (Chikane) being neither an angel nor a devil.

*Note: Don't read the spoilers if you haven't seen the series. My reponse to the above spoiler is another spoiler for a piece of literature that will give away the spoiler for the show if you have had read said piece of literature. Got it?

Teiresias

05-03-2006, 07:26 PM

Teiresias

05-03-2006, 07:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TheGreenMan said:

Oh, by the way, Chikane is not a hero. Listen to what Himeko tells her at the end about her (Chikane) being neither an angel nor a devil.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's Himeko's opinion. What does she know? She was in to Souma for God's sake! . Her judgment is clearly questionable. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

TheGreenMan

05-03-2006, 07:45 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
Hot Otak said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:

Oh, by the way, Chikane is a heroine--not a villain! /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/horse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It is seldom in life (MAJOR SPOILER) that a rapist is EVER considered a hero. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me weigh this:

 Rape the girl?...Save the world? Save the world for the win! By the way, Chikane clearly explained her motivation for the rape--did you completely ignore it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't wait to see what kind of dicussion this show will produce when the 2nd and 3rd volumes come out. This has to be one of the most controversial shows I seen in years. I wonder if people will still be talking about it (like the EVA ending) in a few years.

pianocello

05-03-2006, 09:13 PM

something

05-03-2006, 10:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
TheGreenMan said:
I can't wait to see what kind of dicussion this show will produce when the 2nd and 3rd volumes come out. This has to be one of the most controversial shows I seen in years. I wonder if people will still be talking about it (like the EVA ending) in a few years.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it will get quite that much discussion, but it does generate quite a bit. I don't really think it deserves all the controversy, and at any rate the debate is less about the show than about the fan, it seems.

Leon_Belmont

05-03-2006, 11:09 PM

[ QUOTE ]
disarm said:
[ QUOTE ]
TheGreenMan said:
I can't wait to see what kind of dicussion this show will produce when the 2nd and 3rd volumes come out. This has to be one of the most controversial shows I seen in years. I wonder if people will still be talking about it (like the EVA ending) in a few years.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think it will get quite that much discussion, but it does generate quite a bit. I don't really think it deserves all the controversy, and at any rate the debate is less about the show than about the fan, it seems.

[/ QUOTE ]

Too true. But ultimately I think that's why the show is not forgotten in the realm of vast anime. Don't get me wrong, it has its strengths. But a lot of shows stand on similarly solid ground with a number of strengths.

By crossing the line into controversial territory, it's at least garnered a bit of attention, which has allowed for a decent size fanbase. It's not exactly poetic about what it does either. While Chikane they at least try to provide unique qualities, Himiko and Souma are very, very stereotypical characters. As are all the villains. By attempting to develop someone a little different, and tossing her in this otherwise cliche show as a curve ball to create a whole different appeal, some people thrive on this different light to this atypical formula. And some people think her personality and motivations were developed simply to garner as much attention as possible with an otherwise cliche formula. And shit, they're probably both right.

christianlf

05-04-2006, 12:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:
[ QUOTE ]
Hot Otak said:
[ QUOTE ]
Teiresias said:

Oh, by the way, Chikane is a heroine--not a villain! /images/graemlins/cool.gif /images/graemlins/horse.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

It is seldom in life (MAJOR SPOILER) that a rapist is EVER considered a hero. 

[/ QUOTE ]

Let me weigh this:

 Rape the girl?...Save the world? Save the world for the win! By the way, Chikane clearly explained her motivation for the rape--did you completely ignore it?

[/ QUOTE ]

Okay, because I have no interest in ever watching this, someone ruin it for me. What motivation justifies a rape?

BluWacky

05-04-2006, 06:37 AM

[ QUOTE ]
chmblspuzz said:
Okay, because I have no interest in ever watching this, someone ruin it for me. What motivation justifies a rape?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chikane and Himeko are the reincarnations of the Moon and Sun Priestesses respectively, destined to seal away the evil Orochi. However, in order to completely seal them away, one priestess must kill the other; the last time this happened, Chikane's past life killed Himeko's.

Chikane is completely in love with Himeko, but Himeko is apparently in love with Souma, her male childhood friend; just before the rape occurs they start going out. Chikane cannot bear to be the one to kill Himeko, as she loves her, and so she decides to make Himeko hate her enough that she will be able to kill Chikane to complete the ritual and seal the Orochi. Chikane therefore rapes Himeko to try and make her hate her enough that this will happen; she also appears to defect to the Orochi and a whole bunch of other stuff afterwards.

Essentially, Chikane rapes Himeko to try and save the world. Although it's not particularly effective, as Himeko never actually comes to hate her because she's loved her the whole time too and is more puzzled by the rape than traumatised, hence why Chikane has to go to even further extremes to try and bring this about.

I hope that's as neutral an opinion as possible.

Teiresias

05-04-2006, 09:32 AM

[ QUOTE ]
BluWacky said:
[ QUOTE ]
chmblspuzz said:
Okay, because I have no interest in ever watching this, someone ruin it for me. What motivation justifies a rape?

[/ QUOTE ]

Chikane and Himeko are the reincarnations of the Moon and Sun Priestesses respectively, destined to seal away the evil Orochi. However, in order to completely seal them away, one priestess must kill the other; the last time this happened, Chikane's past life killed Himeko's.

Chikane is completely in love with Himeko, but Himeko is apparently in love with Souma, her male childhood friend; just before the rape occurs they start going out. Chikane cannot bear to be the one to kill Himeko, as she loves her, and so she decides to make Himeko hate her enough that she will be able to kill Chikane to complete the ritual and seal the Orochi. Chikane therefore rapes Himeko to try and make her hate her enough that this will happen; she also appears to defect to the Orochi and a whole bunch of other stuff afterwards.

Essentially, Chikane rapes Himeko to try and save the world. Although it's not particularly effective, as Himeko never actually comes to hate her because she's loved her the whole time too and is more puzzled by the rape than traumatised, hence why Chikane has to go to even further extremes to try and bring this about.

I hope that's as neutral an opinion as possible.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excellent summary! And indeed, a model of restraint-- especially to those of us who know where you stand on KnM /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif.

The only point I might add, is that Chikane remembers this past life (if I remember correctly, it comes to her when she sees Himeko and Souma kiss), but Himeko doesn't--we don't want them to think Himeko is uncaring.

This must be an especially trying time for you...