Moe and the Female Otaku

[LimePie]

The moe trend is targeted at men, but how do women feel about it? I rather the like moe aesthetic, and am interested in knowing the opinions of other female fans.

[something]

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Ojamajo LimePie said:
The moe trend is targeted at men, but how do women feel about it? I rather the moe aesthetic, and am interested in knowing how the opinions of other female fans.

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Your sentence is missing a pivotal word I think /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif Would that be rather like or rather dislike? =P

[musouka]

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Ojamajo LimePie said:
the opinions of other female fans.

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One word: YUCK.

Not just with girls, though. I'm not into shallow, one note male characters whose entire characterization is driven by fan service either.

[LimePie]

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disarm said:
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Ojamajo LimePie said:
The moe trend is targeted at men, but how do women feel about it? I rather the moe aesthetic, and am interested in knowing how the opinions of other female fans.

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Your sentence is missing a pivotal word I think /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif Would that be rather like or rather dislike? =P

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It would be 'like'. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[something]

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Ojamajo LimePie said:
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disarm said:
Your sentence is missing a pivotal word I think /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif Would that be rather like or rather dislike? =P

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It would be 'like'. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

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Heh, ok cool =D I love when females get into the whole "moe" thing, because it's really not about loli buttsecks or whatever. It's just fricking adorable and fun and I don't see why females shouldn't appreciate that too. So kudos to you!

[LimePie]

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musouka said:
One word: YUCK.

Not just with girls, though. I'm not into shallow, one note male characters whose entire characterization is driven by fan service either.

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I don't view moe as 'one note' characterization. Lyrical Nanoha is moe, and I'd hardly consider it to be only shallow fan service. It may not be Eva, but it's an enjoyable anime in its own right (actually, I vastly prefer Nanoha in comparison to Eva.)

[something]

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Ojamajo LimePie said:
I don't view moe as 'one note' characterization. Lyrical Nanoha is moe, and I'd hardly consider it to be only shallow fan service. It may not be Eva, but it's an enjoyable anime in its own right (actually, I vastly prefer Nanoha in comparison to Eva.)

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Good job, now you're gonna get her ranting about Nanoha =P

[musouka]

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Ojamajo LimePie said:
I don't view moe as 'one note' characterization. Lyrical Nanoha is moe, and I'd hardly consider it to be only shallow fan service.

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I'll try to avoid ranting about Nanoha, but I will say that I think any "characterization" Nanoha has (HAH! No, really, I'll stop) is completely overshadowed by her moe-points. She's walking fanboy bait, and is about as exciting and interesting as week old dishwater.

I am not against cute. My anime diet isn't solely made up of shows like Eva. But I think you have to recognize moe for what it is. Moe isn't just "cute characters", it's about putting girls into little packages with all their personality traits stamped on the front for maximum fanboy appeal.

[Lego]

While I'm not female, I wanted to comment on this thread. I personally don't seek "moe" out. I mean if it's in a series that I'm watching(cute character, cute interaction), then I have no qualms about it. The "moe" influence I tend to shy away from is when a whole series relies on that factor. The "zomg cute girl doing various things" factor that seems to sky rocket some shows into popularity.

[Jigen_Daisuke]

Going off on a tangent...

On the message boards at 2ch (http://www.2ch.net/) back in 2004, Japanese posters wrote a lot about "fujoshi" (lit., "rotten girl," "corrupt girl," etc.) - female fans who like BL (boy's love) and yaoi.

And on the message boards at 2ch and at livedoor (http://www.livedoor.jp) back in 2005, Japanese posters mentioned, "fudanshi" (lit., "rotten boy," "corrupt boy," etc.) - male fans who like BL and yaoi.

Google Japan Search for "Fujoshi" (http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=ja&ie=Shift_JIS&lr=&q=%95%85%8F%97%8Eq)

Google Japan Image Search for "Fujoshi" (http://images.google.co.jp/images?q=%95%85%8F%97%8Eq&ie=Shift_JIS&hl=ja&btnG= %83C%83%81%81%5B%83W%8C%9F%8D%F5)

[Lego]

2chan has always puzzled me heh. Of course yuri it to male as yaoi is to female.

[LimePie]

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Lego said:
I personally don't seek "moe" out. I mean if it's in a series that I'm watching(cute character, cute interaction), then I have no qualms about it. The "moe" influence I tend to shy away from is when a whole series relies on that factor. The "zomg cute girl doing various things" factor that seems to sky rocket some shows into popularity.

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I'm not really a 'moe-seeker' either. Some of the shows/characters I like just happen to fall in 'moe' category. Relying only on moe to carry an entire series is a big turn-off. I can't sit through an episode of Sister Princess without gagging, and I don't find The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya to be anything special.

[redline]

On this topic, the following was posted to http://www.animenewsservice.com

5-6-06 (1:44AM EDT)---- Recognition Of The Term "MOE" In Japan

A term commonly used among otaku to refer to a fetish for or love for characters in video games or anime and manga, recognition of "MOE" is growing wider in Japan. According to a recent survey conducted by the 2006 CESA Ippanseikatsu Mono Chousahoukoku Kaki "2006 CESA General Dweller Investigation Report" 60% of those examined were aware of the term. CESA is the Computer Entertainment Supplier's Association, based in Japan and started in 1996. 2.4% of the whole woman's sample said they had used it. Those who answered "Know it" was 26.7% "Heard it" was 36.8% and "Do not know it" was 32.5%. Among men those who answered "Use it" was 4.4% and "Know" was 36.2%. Across both sexes in their late teens through early 30's 40% said they knew of the term. 12.1% of 15-19 year old women said they used it alot, 11.1% of 20-24 year old women said they used it alot. In Men 8.9% of 20-24 years old admitted using the term alot. The research was carried out in the Kansai region including 1103 men and women of 3-79 years old.

[ayumu]

Depends on how you use the word. If you mean it as the typical type of character/anime that fanboys moe over, then no, I'm not really into that (though I do think some of the girls are cute).

If, on the other hand, you mean to ask if I moe over characters in series that I read/watch, then yes, I totally do.

(From the way you ask the question, I'm sure you're thinking of the first meaning, but I just thought I'd clarify that the word means something else entirely to me, and Japanese fangirls use the word in a different way than you are.)

[Njr Scrawl]

Question for both girls & guys. Do cute characters not give you parental feelings, or perhaps older sister/brother affectionate feelings without any sexual element?

Only Nanoha image I've seen is Psychorabbit's avatar, which looks cute in a puppy way.

Of course there is a moe/protectiveness element in older characters too, especially if they seem vulnerable or dependent. Miyuki in YUA, Shinobou in UY, Aya in Ai Yori Aoshi, Mutsume in Love Hina as examples

Voices alone can make a character ring the moe bell - sometimes deceptively. Ran in UY is the shock treatment against falling for it every time. The list of female anime characters whose voices appeal to/would enslave me is too long for a single post /images/graemlins/shy00000.gif

Which male character voices make the girls here go moe?

[Lovely]

You know, I think it depends. In general, I don't normally like the "Moe factor" shows though. Basically, if it's just cute girls doing cute things and NOTHING ELSE. I get bored...

So... (and I should point out that not everything I mention here are technically "moe" shows, they just have that factor to them.)

I loved Risky Safety, because, besides being cute, I thought it was pretty funny.

But then there are shows like Petite Princess Yucie and Someday's Dreamers that just bored me to near tears.


Then there's the Wild Card Figure 17, which, while I loved the cute/home scene real life things to it. I couldn't stand the action bits. I found them boring and often fast forwarded through them. Heh.

So, as I said, it all depends.

[Fencedude]

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musouka said:
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Ojamajo LimePie said:
I don't view moe as 'one note' characterization. Lyrical Nanoha is moe, and I'd hardly consider it to be only shallow fan service.

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I'll try to avoid ranting about Nanoha, but I will say that I think any "characterization" Nanoha has (HAH! No, really, I'll stop) is completely overshadowed by her moe-points. She's walking fanboy bait, and is about as exciting and interesting as week old dishwater.



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*laughs*

I can't believe she actually brought up Nanoha with you.

Anyway, in defense of Nanoha (the show), there is lots of character developement...just none of it belongs to Nanoha.

And for me, personally, Fate and Hayate are far more Moe than Nanoha.

...but really, Signum's the bestest.

[XenoSaber]

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Ojamajo LimePie said:
I'm not really a 'moe-seeker' either. Some of the shows/characters I like just happen to fall in 'moe' category. Relying only on moe to carry an entire series is a big turn-off. I can't sit through an episode of Sister Princess without gagging, and I don't find The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya to be anything special.

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BLASFEMER, Haruhi is <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>god</span>, have some respect, damnit!! /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[Skywise]

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musouka said:
I'm not into shallow, one note characters whose entire characterization is driven by fan service either.

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Err.. what does that have to do with moe?

[Skywise]

Nanoha doesn't trigger any moe for me, but I still enjoy and think of it as a good show. Compare that to something like My-Hime which I don't like at all and others do. It just shows that moe isn't something you can pigeonhole and automatically point at and say "this is moe".

I think a more interesting question is that rather than asking what other girls think about shows targeted at male otaku, is "Are there any shows or characters that are moe for you?". Have you ever experienced it so you know what it's like?

[Dagger]

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Skywise said:
I think a more interesting question is that rather than asking what other girls think about shows targeted at male otaku, is "Are there any shows or characters that are moe for you?". Have you ever experienced it so you know what it's like?

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Having read so much about the concept of moe, I pretty much understood it. But I didn't experience the full-blown moe feeling until I watched the first episode of Ichigo Mashimaro. There's a scene at the end when Nobue walks in and finds Chika, Miu and Matsuri sleeping; that part gave me such a warm, fuzzy and protective feeling that it was almost overwhelming. It just came and hit me out of nowhere.

Sora Naegino (from Kaleido Star) is another character that I've moe'd over. It breaks my heart when she's down. Same goes for Marin from Brigadoon, Misuzu Kamio from AIR... and, to a certain extent, Mitsuki from Full Moon wo Sagashite.

[BluWacky]

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Skywise said:
Nanoha doesn't trigger any moe for me, but I still enjoy and think of it as a good show. Compare that to something like My-Hime which I don't like at all and others do. It just shows that moe isn't something you can pigeonhole and automatically point at and say "this is moe".

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Well, did My-Hime trigger any moe feelings for you either?

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I think a more interesting question is that rather than asking what other girls think about shows targeted at male otaku, is "Are there any shows or characters that are moe for you?". Have you ever experienced it so you know what it's like?

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I've never felt moe about any characters in anime. I can't imagine how it feels, personally, because I can't imagine EVER feeling that way about an anime character, in any of the multiple senses of moe (and it's one of those things that no-one ever seems to agree on).

While citing Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org) isn't necessarily the BEST way to go, you've got two definitions there; the generalised fetish one, where moe indicates an attraction to certain character types (the example given is of meganekko-moe), and the probably more "correct" one of the whole budding/nurturing protectiveness feel.

With regards to the first one, I don't subscribe to any fetishes in anime; I don't feel attracted to a character based on whether they're tsundere/osananajimi/whatever types, it's a character by character thing (and I tend to dislike the stock character types anyway; tsundere frequently just comes across as inconsistent characterisation to me (e.g. Shana) and osananajimi characters usually make me stop watching an anime as soon as they're introduced (e.g. the one in Canvas 2) amongst others).

Then with regards to feeling protective or nurturing of girls/boys/whatever; not in a million years. Take Sakura Kinomoto, who is frequently seen as the archetype of this kind of moe; she's a great character, yes, but do I feel protective or nurturing of her? Not in a million years; she's sensible enough to stand up for herself frankly, and I can't think of any of her personality traits that would make me feel like nurturing her or anything; she's funny and sensible despite being young. I THINK that she inspires moe feelings in Tomoyo, perhaps, but then I don't think that thinking something's cute means you feel moe necessarily; I think that Pino in Ergo Proxy is frequently quite cute, but I'd never say I felt moe about her.

I guess I probably just don't understand what "moe" is; maybe precisely because I don't think I've ever felt that way. For a long time I was under the impression that moe and lolicon were basically the same thing; quite frequently characters that people go moe over are overly submissive and frequently sexualised little girls with slow, high pitched voices and mostly on the verge of tears, and that just creeps me out. I realise that's only one brand of moe, but then I guess I really need moe to properly explained to me before I can really begin to understand it...

[Skywise]

Wikipedia's actually not that bad for this, except for the discussion about the origin of the word (citing Ask John, please -_-). The correct defintion of moe is pretty much that it's an emotion of wanting to protect/nurture etc as you guessed. It's decidedly non-sexual in nature and so fanservice really has no effect on whether something is moe for a person or not. Where the fetish aspect comes in is that some moe otaku are more predisposed to moe feelings over certain character types, and so the Japanese anime studios have tried to capitalize on this for some shows. It's not so much a fetish as it's a set of potential triggers for moe.

I used Nanoha and My-Hime as examples earlier because they both try to do that, but neither inspired any moe feelings in my case. However, just because they don't do that doesn't necessarily mean that they're not good (or bad) shows.

You mentioned Sakura from CCS, and that's actually a perfect example of someone who's moe for me. These days all I have to do is look at a drawing of her, and I get into a kind of zen-like state where most of the cares of the world are washed away - it makes me happy.

I think you actually do understand the concept of moe as far as it's explainable. The only problem is that in order to fully grok it you pretty much have to experience it.

[musouka]

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Skywise said:
Err.. what does that have to do with moe?

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It's a direct byproduct of the moe attitude, that's what it has to do with it.

[LimePie]

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Skywise said:
I think a more interesting question is that rather than asking what other girls think about shows targeted at male otaku, is "Are there any shows or characters that are moe for you?". Have you ever experienced it so you know what it's like?

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I was asking because I was curious.

As for experiencing moe feelings myself, I moe over lots of shows and characters. Sakura from Cardcaptor Sakura has been brought up in this topic, and I totally moe over her. Fullmoon wo Sagashite's Mitsuki is another example of a character that inspires moe feelings in me.

[musouka]

BTW, even though my general reaction is the aforementioned "YUCK", there have been moe shows and/or characters I liked (I have about thirty different Kamio Misuzu wallpapers saved to my harddrive, for example), but usually it's despite their moe-ness, not because of it.

[Skywise]

Considering that moe has nothing to do with either fanservice or shallowness of character I fail to see the connection. Could you please expand/explain what you mean?

[musouka]

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Skywise said:
Considering that moe has nothing to do with either fanservice or shallowness of character I fail to see the connection.

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Technically "moe" is just a specific feeling towards a character. However, to ellicit these "moe moe~~~" feelings from fanboys, anime creators often fall back on one note personality traits. Dojikko, tsundere, ect, ect. (Those personality traits are what I'm referring to as "fan service" in this particular context)

None of those traits are "evil" or "bad" per say, but when that's all there is to a character, these characters tend to become nothing but fanboy bait, because everything they do is calculated for "max moe appeal" not "good characterization".

Does that make it clear?

[quenelf]

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Lego said:
The "moe" influence I tend to shy away from is when a whole series relies on that factor.

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I definitely agree with this...

...except that I'm still watching Binchou-tan. Damnit! Foiled again!

So, uh, I'd rather an entire series relying on moe than an entire series relying on fanservice.

--quen

[pianocello]

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musouka said:
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Ojamajo LimePie said:
I don't view moe as 'one note' characterization. Lyrical Nanoha is moe, and I'd hardly consider it to be only shallow fan service.

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I'll try to avoid ranting about Nanoha, but I will say that I think any "characterization" Nanoha has (HAH! No, really, I'll stop) is completely overshadowed by her moe-points. She's walking fanboy bait, and is about as exciting and interesting as week old dishwater.



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I'm surprised that angry Nanoha fans have not torn her to shreds at this point. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[Aiia]

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Wrath of the Njr said:
Which male character voices make the girls here go moe?

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Momiji in Fruitsbasket is soooo moe! Unless I completely misunderstood the word. Maybe he's just shota-con bait... /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[Skywise]

Yeah I understand what you're saying now. I thought you meant fanservice in the traditional sense.

I won't deny that there are shows where they do fall into that trap, but most of the shows where they try to aim at that target group are very much character driven. In other words character shallowness would actually be a counter-indication in most cases. If a character is moe for someone due to a certain set of characteristics, they won't stop being that by expanding upon and evolving the character. In fact, doing that will in most cases strengthen the feeling even, not make it worse.

[Fencedude]

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piano_cello_conducting said:


I'm surprised that angry Nanoha fans have not torn her to shreds at this point. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

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Well, she makes a good point, Nanoha herself is really rather lacking as a character.

Neither season is ABOUT her. Season 1 is about Fate, Season 2 is about Hayate.

Nanoha's just there to blow shit up.

[Suwako Moriya]

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Fencedude said:
Nanoha's just there to blow shit up.

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You forgot she's also there to attempt to be a therapist. How successful she is well your call. Still they need a season focused on her at least once. Okay maybe therapist isn't the right word, but whatever.

[Njr Scrawl]

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It's decidedly non-sexual in nature and so fanservice really has no effect on whether something is moe for a person or not.

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Cute animals are moe alright. Menchi in Excel Saga comes to mind. The ES episodes animation ending is so cruel, and ep.26 ending so cool /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Ryo-Ohki in the Tenchi OVAs another moe furry pet.

[Gatts]

So stuff like this (http://images.desturel.com/misc/thefearsomefour.jpg) or this (http://images.desturel.com/misc/puppyinabucket.jpg) could be considered moe depending on who you talk to.

[jecca-neko]

As a female, I don't really care. I don't watch anime specifically for fanservice reasons, so if there happens to be a character within it that would fit a specific fanservice area it doesn't matter to me.

Some of the moe characters I really like for one reason or another but not generally for their attractiveness. For instance, Xenosaga's (anime and game) MOMO could be considered a loli moe character. I like her a lot, but my reasons are that I like her personality (she's sweet and her almost father/daughter relationship with Ziggy is adorable) and she's fun to use in battle. Her magical girl-esque transformations in Xenosaga episode 1 was a pleasant surprise to me.

[Pfil]

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Gatts said:
So stuff like this (http://images.desturel.com/misc/thefearsomefour.jpg) or this (http://images.desturel.com/misc/puppyinabucket.jpg) could be considered moe depending on who you talk to.

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The Fearsome Four one is awesome. /images/graemlins/happy.gif I especially like the hamster.

However, those don't fit my definition of the term. IMO, it's not enough to look cute or pathetic - to qualify as moe a character needs to be working hard ('ganbaru', that stock Japanese concept) to overcome great difficulties in dealing with the world and with one's own limitations. Take Kinomoto Sakura - at first she's in way over her head with the magic battles, and then <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>you learn of her background with her mother dying when she was very young</span>, and you just want to hug her and tell her that it will all be all right, but she comes through it on her own, always genki and caring of her friends. That, to me, is moe - you 'burn' for her to make it through her hardships. So while a cute puppy may be kawaii, a cute puppy in the rain covered with dirt whom someone just kicked, but who still manages to waggle its tail, is moe. /images/graemlins/happy.gif * edit: I guess Menchi could qualify, although I haven't watched Excel Saga.

Sorry for throwing in all those Japanese terms like I was trying to pretend to be fluent in the language, but it seemed appropriate since these are like the standard concepts in all such anime.

Apart from the parental instinct thingy (which I'm pretty sure I have none of, and I am still a sucker for moe), I think part of it is also that you're supposed to both sympathize and identify with the character, and also cheer up because that character who you identify with is able to overcome his/her difficulties. The people that these kinds of shows are directed towards, otaku, are very likely to have suffered hardships while growing up, having trouble fitting in and being accepted by others, etc. So it has a kind of healing quality as well.

Like I said above, I'm a sucker for moe, but I do think it has a tendency of being overdone in many shows. I feel that, like many other devices - dead parents, osana-najimi, a main character dying - it is something that must be earned through good writing and directing. If it's overused, or just used as an easy trick to get you watching the show and boost the ratings, it just feels cheap and - sometimes - uncomfortably sexist, since its usually girls that are portrayed this way. But if it's used just right - like in Cardcaptor Sakura - then it can be a very powerful device to get you into the story and liking the characters.

I wonder if it would be possible to create a character who was not cute/good-looking at all, but still moe?

[Fencedude]

I think trying to define "Moe" is inherently impossible, its something different for everyone.

But really, I'd rather have someone who's more "Moeru" than "Moe"

[Shsway]

I don't really like it all that much, let alone look for it. An abundance of it is downright annoying to me.

To answer Njr's question about such characters, yes, I tend to feel like a parent when it comes to them. A good example might be CCS' Kinomoto Sakura, and her friends. When I watch that show, I feel like I want to bundle them all up in warm blankets and make sure they get enough to eat at breakfast, before they leave for school. :&gt;

[Skywise]

You're trying to overdefine things. Puppy/kitten pictures can definitely be moe as long as they trigger the emotion. It doesn't have to involve hardships or anything - it just is. That particular picture of the 4 actually works for me. It's not as strong as what I feel for Sakura in CCS, but it's there /images/graemlins/happy.gif. That's also why you have stuff like moeboard etc. You have people saying that something is moe for them without knowing anything about the character or even having seen the show/read the manga.

[Lego]

That is the only thing that irks me a little Skywise. I mean I could care less who likes what character, as everyone has different tastes. But it just seems like there is a segment of fandom that latches onto certain characters rather then the show itself. I mean go take a look at 2chan and you'll see what I mean. Again, I have no problem with likeing a show for a character. Someone like Kaname from FMP or so on. But I guess like anything, when you take moe to that extreme, it comes off as kinda creepy.

I'm not talking about likeing a character such as my Haruka fandom or other posters who are into characters.

[pianocello]

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Virginia Knights said:
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Fencedude said:
Nanoha's just there to blow shit up.

[/ QUOTE ]

You forgot she's also there to attempt to be a therapist. How successful she is well your call. Still they need a season focused on her at least once. Okay maybe therapist isn't the right word, but whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]
No actually Nanoha is there to provide fodder for all those Nanoha x Fate yuri doujinshi. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[Njr Scrawl]

Sometimes a cute character or animal, behaviour or what happens to them can redeem an episode or show, even if a lot else is weak.

A lot of magical girl episodes are like that. Repetitive type villains/monsters &amp; situations, but how a character reacts, matures, is affected afterwards is what is most endearing. One reason I like Sailor Moon Stars best of all her TV series.
The senshi as people are what makes 200 episodes + 3 movies easy to watch.

But then viewers get moe about Thumper, Bambi, Fleur, Kimba, Tweetie Pie &amp; Huey, Dewey &amp; Louie as well!

[Isuzu Inugami]

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piano_cello_conducting said:


I'm surprised that angry Nanoha fans have not torn her to shreds at this point. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, she's got a point. Nanoha herself is kind of bland. She's the catalyst of the show's action, but the real interest comes from the other characters. I get ten times more moe out of Fate than Nanoha could ever provide.

Also, [big soulful eyes mode] Musouka kowai!

--Shi-moe-ma

[Sheena]

Moe characters aren't bothering me inherently I guess. It's not working very much either for making me like/watch a show. In the best case, it's a plus on shows that I happen to like for other reasons.

But in the worst cases, when it's used as obvious deus ex machina to grab an audience (often male otaku looking for jail bait fan service) at the expense of quality, plot and substance, then it really bothers me because of the cheapness of the scheme of playing on an innuendo-driven Pavlovian response.

[Skywise]

Just re-iterating here: moe has absolutely nothing to do with sex, or what we think of as fanservice in the traditional sense. So you can't really call it jailbait fanservice just like that, as that would imply some sort of loli/pedo thing going on.

Btw your last paragraph - "I do not think it means what you think it means"