Is Utena an Eva style mind frell?

[Dylonius Funk]

Basic enouhg question. I like what i've seen so far, though thats only the first 7 episodes. It's a shrt enouhg series that i'll probably end up buying the box sets at some point. What i'm wondering is if there is any kind of meaning or sense to the show or is it one of those " make up your own conclusions" type of deals. At least judgeing from the opening it seems pretty out there, but so far the plot has actually made sense. If it's possbile to explain how it goes without spoilers i would appreciate it.

[BluWacky]

Personally, I think the actual "narrative" of Utena is relatively clear; the ending is open to interpretation, but it's not overly ambiguous since you do know exactly what's happened.

It IS, however, still quite the head trip; the beauty is in the details.

And I'm not spoiling anything for you; watch the show for yourself and you'll see that everything you've seen in the first 7 episodes will be important later.

[ohtori_akio]

Utena is EVA done with meaning. Almost nothing is random or not explored to its full potential. EVA lost me when it got started with Religion, Psychology and Philosophy without actually doing anything worthwhile with them.

Utena goes somewhere with everything it brings forward and does it so well that you will be staring at the screen in awe a LOT of the time! And I'm not even talking about the movie!

[Johnny]

[ QUOTE ]
shounen kakumei akio said:
Utena is EVA done with meaning. Almost nothing is random or not explored to its full potential. EVA lost me when it got started with Religion, Psychology and Philosophy without actually doing anything worthwhile with them.

Utena goes somewhere with everything it brings forward and does it so well that you will be staring at the screen in awe a LOT of the time! And I'm not even talking about the movie!

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of Utena, but for me at least Eva made a lot more sense because the psychology etc did mean something (although I admit, the religious elements were kinda tacked on) i.e. the Hedgehog's Dilemma thing etc.

Utena is practically all symbolism so it's really easy to miss stuff when watching it. And then there's the movie! /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[ohtori_akio]

[ QUOTE ]
johnny said:
Utena is practically all symbolism so it's really easy to miss stuff when watching it. And then there's the movie! /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This just makes it all the more fun everytime you rewatch! And the movie somehow manages to take that symbolism further /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[Johnny]

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shounen kakumei akio said:
[ QUOTE ]
johnny said:
Utena is practically all symbolism so it's really easy to miss stuff when watching it. And then there's the movie! /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

This just makes it all the more fun everytime you rewatch! And the movie somehow manages to take that symbolism further /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

That's true. Is there any other anime that comes close to the amount of times you'd need to rewatch it to get the most out of it? (rhetorical question /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

[aquapermanence]

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shounen kakumei akio said:
Almost nothing is random or not explored to its full potential.

[/ QUOTE ]

And just as Eva did, Utena takes the conventions of its own genre and continually foils viewer expectations. The more shoujo anime you see, the more apparent this becomes.

[aquapermanence]

[ QUOTE ]
johnny said:
Is there any other anime that comes close to the amount of times you'd need to rewatch it to get the most out of it? (rhetorical question /images/graemlins/wink.gif)

[/ QUOTE ]

(rhetorical yes, but I'll respond anyway)

There are, but most of them aren't nearly as rewarding. Utena is a show that not only takes its time unraveling the big picture, it takes its time with the little picture too. While many shows will introduce new characters and elements that only affect the plot going forward, Utena takes care to integrate its substantial themes in ways that allow the viewer to think they know what's going on, can be surprised by new developments, and find few if any logical holes or inconsistencies.

I have a feeling that it's the cyclical nature of the show that aids in this kind of setup and rewatchability. Indeed, if Monika's "Extended Cycle Theory" is to be accepted, then the events that take place in Utena even have ramifications on other shows that were made before it. But to take the fanaticism down a notch, it's still not hard to say that watching other shows with the visual language of Utena in mind certainly enhances the experience.

The Extended Cycle Theory, of course, only affects shows it was intended to affect, such as Rose of Versailles, Oniisama-e, and Princess Tutu, to give examples going in both directions.

Now, the Hyperextended Cycle Theory is where it's at. Utena character analysis and plot devices can be supplemented by applying them to, say, Gankutsuo and, er, Keroro Gunso, for example. Doing so, as the name suggests, might cause injury if you're not particularly flexible.

I'll also use this post to mention that 1. You can get yourself a free Utena LD at the RBT site if you play your cards right, and 2. that there are new sound clips filed under Touga, ChuChu, and Akio right now and might be more by the end of the day. I also might change the Touga one, so hurry if you want to catch this one. (Also mention you might need to clear your cache if it's not showing up.)

[Edible]

[ QUOTE ]
Utena character analysis and plot devices can be supplemented by applying them to, say, Gankutsuo and, er, Keroro Gunso

[/ QUOTE ]

*brain explodes*

::shrug:: Eh, what the hell.


----------------------------

Cycle Theory in powerpoint for those of you who forget or have never seen it before:

World of Utena occurs in cycles
- Controllers (The Akio and the Anthy) set up world
- - Work together
- - Have confilicting goals
- Enlist an (often pink-haired) idealist to shape it further
- - er... Utena.

Between Cycles
- Characters may come back
- - Memories are wiped nearly clean but motivations and subconscious persist
- Characters may also exit the cycle and be replaced
- Replacements might take a little time - characters linger
- - Ruka is being replaced by Miki (see hair, relationships) (terminology: "Ruka is a late-cycle Miki")
- - Mikage is a long-lingering Utena (see hair, motivation)

Movie as a sequel to Utena TV
- Anthy "won" previous cycle
- - Strips Akio of most of his powers
- - World more twisted as a result
- Characters persist except
- - <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Touga - Anthy decides to get rid of him last minute - Motives transfered to Saionji, last minute.</span>
- - Utena - Was released. Anthy expects a new one, male.
- Shocker - old Utena doesn't learn her lesson, comes back in same form.

Extended Cycle Theory
- Over time, large drift in either direction
- Cycles, however, continue
- RoV for example
- - Oscar: Touga (Yes, I know everyone thinks Oscar is Utena. She's not.)
- - Rosalie: Utena
- - etc.
- Tutu for example
- - duck, Duck, Tutu: Child Utena, Utena, Utena + power of Dios
- - Mytho: Dios (not Anthy - this occurs post-movie, after shift in power)
- - Fakir: Saionji
- - Rue: Touga
- - Drosselmeyer: Post-movie Akio (semi-influential, slightly hindered by death.)
- - etc. (I can go on this subject for hours, really.)

----------------------------


Gankutsuou is rather interesting when viewed as a late-cycle Saionji making an appearance in an early-cycle setup.

And Keroro Gunso, we have the casting of Koyasu as Kururu (technophile prankster who's a dick to all his friends) and Kusao as Dororo (loner swordsman who has abandonment issues and trust issues because his friends tend to lie to him a lot and then forget about him, takes refuge living with a young girl instead).

[Shale]

My thoughts: As Monika so nicely demonstrates, Utena can be as much of a mindjob as you let it be. Rewatches help.

Speaking of mindjobs (http://larself.com/revolution/harrymudd1.jpg), the Star Trek animated (http://larself.com/revolution/harrymudd2.jpg) series is coming to DVD soon (http://larself.com/revolution/harrymudd3.jpg).

[Isuzu Inugami]

[ QUOTE ]
monika said:
Speaking of mindjobs (http://larself.com/revolution/harrymudd1.jpg), the Star Trek animated (http://larself.com/revolution/harrymudd2.jpg) series is coming to DVD soon (http://larself.com/revolution/harrymudd3.jpg).

[/ QUOTE ]

Ya haa!!! And how would the animated Star Trek fit into the Extended Cycle, anyway?

Wonderfully, I'm sure. I'll let you know after it comes out on DVD and I have the chance to watch it for the first time in years.

By the way, Randy and I have a project planned for later this summer that'll probably make the lot of you happy. Watch his sig for details.

[quenelf]

Yes, it's just like Eva but with more sex.

(Seriously, I think it's a much better and more original show, not that Eva wasn't good too. The movie, on the other hand, pretty much sucks but is pretty and stuff. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

--quen

[guido7]

Utena is a show drenched in symbolism, but in terms of the actual storyline it isn't very difficult to decipher what happens in each episode. The complexity in Utena is in the unpacking of all they symbolism that's thrown at you, which is what gives the show its' richness and depth.

It does at times kick you in the proverbial balls with surprises, but in terms of the structure of the show it is actually quite predictable, as you likely have noticed. I often think of the show as being somewhat ritualistic in this sense, which it is in a certain way. However, the structure changes just often enough to mess with your head and keep you guessing as to what might happen next. I guarantee you will be surprised at least once going forward.

[Shale]

[ QUOTE ]
monika said:
Speaking of mindjobs (http://larself.com/revolution/harrymudd1.jpg), the Star Trek animated (http://larself.com/revolution/harrymudd2.jpg) series is coming to DVD soon (http://larself.com/revolution/harrymudd3.jpg).

[/ QUOTE ]

....Har...Harry...but...my brain...


DAMN YOU.

[Fencedude]

You know, I'd love to be able to sit down with you sometime and talk about this, but I'm afraid my head would explode.

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
You know, I'd love to be able to sit down with you sometime and talk about this, but I'm afraid my head would explode.

[/ QUOTE ]

We should get together anyway, sit down over coffee, and not talk about anything, just to be safe.

[jecca-neko]

Let's put it this way. Once Evangelion started to get into religion and other things, it hurt my head to think about it. It's not for religious reasons. I find it too convoluted to be interesting. Utena doesn't hurt my head. Instead I find it facinating.

[Shsway]

When comparing Utena and Eva, I find it fascinating to note that the former makes me sob like a baby by the end, while the latter fills my soul with hope. Granted, I also experienced some of the worst nausea coupled with mild migraine and nervous shudderings that I've ever experienced, but overall, yeah, hope.

Still I give Utena the edge for its attractive storytelling techniques and musical strength, though I'll admit that I do have a certain bias for certain aspects of the show that don't come up with Evangelion.

Boiled down to the simplest of terms, it can be argued that both shows are essentially about adolescence, sexuality and societal pressures liberally mixed in with everything. So yeah, it's one of those.

[ QUOTE ]
quen said:
and more original show

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an illusion created by the dearth of pre-Utena Shoujo released in R1 and the slightly less dearthiness of pre-Eva Mecha.

People often point at RoV and Oniisama-e. I'll assume you all know about those, and instead tell you about a little manga series called "Kaze to Ki no Uta", the Song of Wind and Trees.


Originally serialized in 1976, written by Takemiya Keiko, Kaze to Ki no Uta is notable as the first ever identifiable modern (softcore) yaoi. It tells the story of Serge Battour, a dark skinned half-Gypsy orphan boy newly enrolled at the all male Laconblade Academy in France in 1880. When he arrives, he finds himself roommated with the school whore, Gilbert Cocteau, who sleeps with anyone in exchange for not needing to do any school work. Gilbert is currently the cause of much scandal in the school - two boys, Max and Jack, are both fighting over him. Dueling, in fact. After his refusing to accept his defeat and let go of his claim to Gilbert, Jack is expelled by the school's "Rose Marine" and forced to leave in disgrace.

Serge originally doesn't understand Gilbert, and is encouraged by the other students to disassociate himself. However, he feels that Gilbert can't possibly be happy this way, and tries to encourage Gilbert to become a normal boy, go to classes and have friends and stuff like that. Gilbert initially complies, putting on a full set of clothes and going to classes on a regular basis, but his heart is not in it and he goes back to his whorish ways as soon as someone new comes along. And Serge eventually finds himself pulled in by Gilbert's trappy charms and falls in love with Gilbert despite himself.

And oh yeah, Gilbert likes to fuck people in this small rose garden thing (http://larself.com/revolution/rosegarden.jpg) he has. And Gilbert also has some sort of mysterious older uncle who is a sadist who he loves and who gives him stuff and who gives a lot of money to the school. And Serge plays piano really well and everyone loves him for that. And the slapping. Did I mention the slapping?




To be fair, Utena was the fair skinned one and Anthy was the dark skinned one. And they were girls.

[LimePie]

[ QUOTE ]
monika said:
And oh yeah, Gilbert likes to fuck people in this small rose garden thing (http://larself.com/revolution/rosegarden.jpg) he has.

[/ QUOTE ]

The greenhouse also shows up in MariMite. Time to add another series to the Extended Cycle Theory. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

Enjoy working out the character matching!

I tend to be fairly conservative when placing things in the ECT. Unless there's a fair amount of evidence that the show belongs there at some level in the creator's mind (Ikuhara's in the case of pre-Utena shows and the show-in-question's creator in the case of post-Utena shows), I put things in the HECT instead. I'm not so sure Matsushita Yukihiro is actively going out of his way to present the show as any sort of followup or response to Utena (while in my mind, Ito and Sato were very specifically targetting Utena and Ikuhara as part of the long-standing mini-feud going back to their Sailor Moon days when they made Tutu, as evidenced by the opening sequence of episode nine.)


But these theories are really very personal things, so I'm not going to tell you how to interpret stuff. /images/graemlins/happy.gif



Anyway, I broke down and added sound clips for Utena, Saionji, and Anthy that I was really hesitant about adding. (And I just realized how well the juxtaposition of the Saionji and Anthy ones work...) 'f they don't show up, try cache clearing. Does anyone know how to block cache storing from a website? I tried a few things but they don't seem to work all the time.

[nakimushi]

[ QUOTE ]
monika said:
Does anyone know how to block cache storing from a website? I tried a few things but they don't seem to work all the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have you tried &lt;META http-equiv="pragma" content="nocache"&gt;


If you have already tried it, sorry. Nothing works 100% of the time - too many different browser standards.

I remember trying something like that but I might be crazy. Lemme give it a shot. Thanks!


'dit:

[ QUOTE ]
nakidasu said:

If you have already tried it, sorry. Nothing works 100% of the time - too many different browser standards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I remember that being why I didn't like it so much. But I've reinstated it anyway, so that should help some people. Thanks again.

[lilitu93]

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monika said:
I tend to be fairly conservative when placing things in the ECT. Unless there's a fair amount of evidence that the show belongs there at some level in the creator's mind (Ikuhara's in the case of pre-Utena shows and the show-in-question's creator in the case of post-Utena shows), I put things in the HECT instead. I'm not so sure Matsushita Yukihiro is actively going out of his way to present the show as any sort of followup or response to Utena

[/ QUOTE ]

There are some direct references in Marimite (the anime) to Utena, mainly visual ones, but also the character name
<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Shiori</span> in episodes 10 and 11, the flashback episodes about Sei's past. There's also direct visual references to RoV, and you can see both the Utena and RoV in this AMV based on the two episodes in question.

Marimite music video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwCnuScMNg8)

The name mentioned above (minor spoiler for those who haven't seen the series) might be coincidence, since I assume it's taken from the novels and not changed for the anime, but it does seem a big coincidence considering the similarity in roles between Marimite and Utena (not in personality, just in their relationship to a main character).

[LimePie]

[ QUOTE ]
lilitu93 said:
There are some direct references in Marimite (the anime) to Utena, mainly visual ones, but also the character name
<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Shiori</span> in episodes 10 and 11, the flashback episodes about Sei's past.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the main reference I was thinking of; Sei is the MariMite equivalant of Juri, while <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Shiori</span> is (duh!) <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Shiori</span>.

The use of different colored roses as identification is also similar to Utena.

Okay. I haven't actually seen it so I'm just going off what I've heard about it. Visually, it looks like it's taken more from Oniisama-e than anything else, but I'm not looking really closely.

'course, there are direct visual reference to RoV in EVERYTHING. /images/graemlins/happy.gif Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne, for example, 's got plenty of the rose vines wrapping around people thing. And then there's Rozen Maiden, which, thanks to a certain three word phrase ("Desu for girls"), is linked forever to Gankutsuou in my mind. which brings us back to the HECT.

And how many long wavy green haired guys do you know who get fucked over repeatedly in their youth? (By the way, Oniisama-e has some pretty interesting foreshadowing of the Wakaba-Saionji relationship in Utena and later RBT, which I personally consider part of the ECT*. Which is, I repeat, a very personal thing.)

*Clarification: RBT was written to be a parody retelling of Utena. It was not written to be a direct sequel to Utena in any way. However, that's not going to stop me from going back and reinterpreting my own work that way. That's the way the Extended Cycle Theory works.

Also, all shoujo is the same.

::ducks::

[aquapermanence]

[ QUOTE ]
lilitu93 said:
There's also direct visual references to RoV

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif I'll have to take your word for it, since I didn't see anything more familiar than a girl covered in thorns. It may be a reference, or it may be an image that's meant to represent something in particular (like "I have a destiny of roses" or "I feel like I'm covered in thorns"). The image itself doesn't imply any stronger connection than that between the two pieces of fiction--indeed, if it did, then I would be much more worried by the various references to Rose of Versailles in Excel Saga, or the direct use of MariMite as a design template in Cromartie High School.

And as shows like these and others, such as Abenobashi and Super Milk-chan demonstrate, it's not just about the number or occurrence of references that turn a particular work like Utena or Evangelion into a component of a metafictional commentary. If it was, then distinctions like parody, satire, and homage would lose their meaning in the face of a linear reference measurement system.

If I were to construct a similar extended structure with Evangelion at the start point (I don't say cycle since I'm not entirely convinced that Eva is a cyclical story, although there's compelling evidence for it), I would first examine other works that the same creative staff was involved in, and branch out to other anime and works of fiction that share similar themes, events, and character sets. A short list of titles to be included in such a structure would probably look something like the tree of life diagram from the show itself combined with the sci-fi food pyramid from episode 3 of Abenobashi.

Ebichu is Misato. It's so clear to me now. The sexual frustration, the trust issues, the love of cheese...

[aquapermanence]

[ QUOTE ]
monika said:
Ebichu is Misato. It's so clear to me now.

[/ QUOTE ]

It took you this long?

Misato drinks Yebichu brand beer, which has a picture of Ebichu on the can.

That's in episode 7, the same episode in which they ever-so-subtly insert the name "Ikuhara" in a gala event with flowers and wreaths celebrating a group that refused to work on the Eva project.

Funny enough, Rei was barely in that episode. Not that I'm implying anything about Ikuhara and/or people who are fond of characters named Rei from shows they did or didn't work on.

...dechu.

Okay, that I feel the need to actually clarify for people who aren't aware of it. This next paragraph is speculationless fact.

There was in fact a very strong push by Anno to convince Ikuhara to work on Eva after the joint quitting and firing* of Ikuni from Sailor Moon. (I know there're interviews where Anno admits to this but a quick google just returns unsourced statements. But plenty of them so you know it's true.) Naming Eva-Rei Rei was part of this push - Ikuhara's work in Sailor Moon was very Mars-centric and SM-Rei was his favorite character**. This push was, of course, unsuccessful. Ikuhara was all like "Fuck that. I quit Sailor Moon so I could do an expansive metafictiony satire piece with mind fuckery symbolism on Shoujo, not Mecha."

My bonus theory is that Ikuhara was extra insulted that Anno hadn't even watched enough Sailor Moon to differentiate between Sailor Mars and Sailor Mercury when copying the design.

* Ikuhara quit because they wouldn't let him do a scene with girls in armor riding on flying horses through a collapsing upside down castle. They were going to fire him any way because he had a tendancy to use all his allotted cels on silly slice of life scenes while doing the epic battle scenes using pans over stills. With his newfound freedom, all of this gets realized in Utena.

Imagine the beautiful and spectacular budgeting mess we'd get to see if Ikuhara and Anno did ever get together.

** to COSPLAY.

And I still want to get the R2 DVDs <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>of Ebichu, of course</span> for the joint Mitsuishi Kotono/Anno interview.

[ QUOTE ]
monika said:
I know there're interviews where Anno admits to this but a quick google just returns unsourced statements. But plenty of them so you know it's true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh duh. It's on Anno's own website (http://www.gainax.co.jp/hills/anno/) (It's the 11/02/2000 essay in the essay section.)

〇綾波レイ　アヤナミã�¯æ—§æ—¥æœ¬æµ·è»�ã� ®è‰¦èˆ¹ã�‹ã‚‰ã€‚レイã�¨ã�„ã�†ã�®ã�¯é›¶ã�¨ã�„ã�†å �˜ç´”ã�ªæŽ›è©žã‚‚ã�‚ã‚Šã�¾ã�™ã�Œã€�セラãƒ*ンã�® ç�«é‡Žãƒ¬ã‚¤ã�¡ã‚ƒã‚“ã�‹ã‚‰å€Ÿã‚Šã�¦ã�„ã�¾ã�™ã€‚ã� “ã‚Œã�¯å½“時ã€�<font color="red">å¹¾ã�¡ã‚ƒã‚“</font>（幾原邦彦æ°�）をスタッフã�«èª˜ã�„込゠€ã�Ÿã‚�ã�®ç”˜ã�„餌ã�¨ã�—ã�¦ç”¨æ„�ã�—ã�Ÿã�®ã�§ã�™ã �Œã€�残念ã�ªã�Œã‚‰é£Ÿã�„逃ã�’ã�•ã‚Œã�¦ã�—ã�¾ã�„ ã�¾ã�—ã�Ÿã€‚ã�¨ã�»ã�»

He also calls Ikuhara "Ikuchan" (highlighted in red)

[quenelf]

[ QUOTE ]
monika said:
To be fair, Utena was the fair skinned one and Anthy was the dark skinned one. And they were girls.

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/happy.gif If that's really an accurate summary of the plot, then wow, it's clearly a strong influence or a remarkable coincidence...

I wasn't trying to suggest that Utena was really original, because (a) nothing is, and (b) it's very obviously taking huge amounts from earlier stuff in art style, story themes, etc.

But it seemed to me that the borrowing is done basically intentionally - take a genre and shift it, in order to sort of introduce a new level of fucked-up-ness. (Even if it's slightly less of an increment when you compare it to the particular manga you mentioned...)

Same is true of Eva - not the first series to feature angsty robot pilots, but did take it to a new level (in anime at least).

At least that was my sketchy attempt to draw a connection between the two series. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

--quen

PS Re the discussion of all the following shows with similarities, Marimite was great; I'm currently watching Strawberry Panic, which appears to cycle between 'yet another show in that line' (complete with greenhouse) and 'bizarre lesbian exploitation flick'. Which is perhaps not surprising given its source magazine etc. It also has an ED song video with possibly the least convincing lesbian couple ever.

[lilitu93]

[ QUOTE ]
aquapermanence said:
[ QUOTE ]
lilitu93 said:
There's also direct visual references to RoV

[/ QUOTE ]

/images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif I'll have to take your word for it, since I didn't see anything more familiar than a girl covered in thorns. It may be a reference, or it may be an image that's meant to represent something in particular (like "I have a destiny of roses" or "I feel like I'm covered in thorns"). The image itself doesn't imply any stronger connection than that between the two pieces of fiction--indeed, if it did, then I would be much more worried by the various references to Rose of Versailles in Excel Saga, or the direct use of MariMite as a design template in Cromartie High School.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the references I'm referring to. I'm not sure it's meant to be more than, say, a tribute, especially as Marimite is more a slice-of-life show, but I do think it's more than a coincidence that both the Utena and RoV references appear in the same two episodes all about a past <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>lesbian lover</span>. (Not really sure I need to mark that as a spoiler, but just in case, it's marked.) And I'm not saying that Marimite fits well the ECT, but it's hardly unaware of Utena or afraid to evoke its atmosphere, especially with the use of roses.

Of course, RoV is iconic in Japan, and everyone watching knows that image of the girl surrounded by roses, so it's hardly surprising that it appears in loads of places.

As for your last comment, is this (http://www.geocities.com/marianaisho/gallery/chromatic.jpg) what you're referring to? According to the site I found it on, it's either a doujinshi by the Cromartie artist himself or a really talented fan-artist. (As I haven't read the manga and have only seen about 1/3 of the episodes, for all I know, it could come from the manga itself.)

BTW, does Kannazuki no Miko fit into the ECT or is it too much parody? I only ever saw the first episode, but it seemed to contain a lot of parodies/references to RoV, Utena and Marimite.

[Vicserr]

[ QUOTE ]
monika said:
[ QUOTE ]
quen said:
and more original show

[/ QUOTE ]

That's an illusion created by the dearth of pre-Utena Shoujo released in R1 and the slightly less dearthiness of pre-Eva Mecha.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, but unlike the Shoujo Fans, We mecha fans are getting more pre-Eva material than ever. ADV and CPM re-releases of Super Dimension Fortress Macross and Armored Trooper V.O.T.O.M.S. and Media Blasters upcoming lineup(Hundred Beast King GoLion, Armored Fleet DaiRugger XV, Space Knight Tekkaman Blade and even if it's not pre Eva, King Of Braves GaoGaiGar evokes the series of old) 2006-2007 seems to be shaping up as the best time to be a Classic Mecha fan, something to make the <font color="red">Rabid Militant Giant Robot Mecha Fan</font> in me very proud and happy /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Votoms makes me so happy. I'm giddy like a school girl in anticipation of the fourth CPM set and the tin and stuff.

Now while I haven't done it nearly as extensively as I have Utena and pre-Utena Shoujo, it's fun to go through pre-Eva Mecha and look at trends and influences and stuff. I find it particularly amusing that Gundam Wing is like the last pre-Eva Mecha. Even before checking the release dates (April and October '95), when I watch Gundam Wing, I can feel Eva clawing its way out of the genre.

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quen said:

/images/graemlins/happy.gif If that's really an accurate summary of the plot, then wow, it's clearly a strong influence or a remarkable coincidence...


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Would (http://honeydrop.dreamhost.com/evol/animanga/kaze/) I lie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaze_to_Ki_no_Uta) to you (http://www.boysonboysonfilm.com/anime/kazetokinouta.html)? /images/graemlins/happy.gif

I have the 10-volume release. I wish I could follow it better. I've only found translations of the first two volumes and have had to satisfy myself with looking at the pretty pictures and guessing and stuff. But it's one of my favorite posessions.

This (http://salad.2ch.net/gcomic/kako/985/985590052.html) appears to be an "Is Utena your favorite anime?" thread on some Japanese site. Someone (post 554) mentions Kaze to Ki no Uta, I think in response to someone describing a scene from something they can't remember the name of.

[quenelf]

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monika said:
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quen said:
/images/graemlins/happy.gif If that's really an accurate summary of the plot


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Would (http://honeydrop.dreamhost.com/evol/animanga/kaze/) I lie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaze_to_Ki_no_Uta) to you (http://www.boysonboysonfilm.com/anime/kazetokinouta.html)? /images/graemlins/happy.gif


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It doesn't look like you took offence, so good, but I didn't mean you were lying! /images/graemlins/happy.gif Just that you might have been selecting the parts that were similar to Utena and leaving out other parts (which would've been justifiable for the purposes of argument).

I'm not really into BL stuff (well not for 10 volumes anyhow) so I don't think I'll get it. (Even if I did I doubt I'd be offering to translate, since (a) I'm not really good enough, and (b) I translated a volume of something once just for fun and because I was staying with my parents and had run out of manga and wanted to make it last... it took ages. which was as intended for that situation, but. /images/graemlins/happy.gif) Does sound interesting though.

--quen

So I'm hoping this Wednesday maybe to set aside some time to get to work on the aforementioned project Randy and I are going to get going on this summer. Unless my research gets in they way (which it very well might since UAI is coming up soon) I suspect we'll have enough content to go ahead and justify registering the domain name and everything by the end of June.

<font color="white">notutena.com</font> /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[evilarrex]

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Fencedude said:
You know, I'd love to be able to sit down with you sometime and talk about this, but I'm afraid my head would explode.

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Mine exploded already.... /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[Vicserr]

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monika said:
Votoms makes me so happy. I'm giddy like a school girl in anticipation of the fourth CPM set and the tin and stuff.

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A girl after my own heart, nothing like gushing for great heroes and armed to the teeth mecha /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

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Now while I haven't done it nearly as extensively as I have Utena and pre-Utena Shoujo, it's fun to go through pre-Eva Mecha and look at trends and influences and stuff. I find it particularly amusing that Gundam Wing is like the last pre-Eva Mecha. Even before checking the release dates (April and October '95), when I watch Gundam Wing, I can feel Eva clawing its way out of the genre.

[/ QUOTE ]

well you go from the grandfather of the Giant Robot Tetsujin 28(Gigantor), then go to Go Nagai and the Super Robot age(Mazinger Z, Great Mazinger, Grendizer, Voltes V, Jeeg, Gaiking etc...), then hit the Real Robot age with Gundam, Macross, Dunbine, Dougram, Votoms, Dorvack, Dragonar, the Yusha age(that comes from the deaththroes of Transformers G1 in Japan) with Exkaiser, Fightbird and GaoGaiGar among others and the Eva age with shows like Evangelion, Argentosoma, Fafner, Gasaraki, Blue Gender and RahXephon, the Giant Robot revival with Shin Getter Robo, the New Tetsujin 28, Gaiking Neo and Mazinkaizer and the Fanservice with Giant Robot like GoDannar and Gravion.

Now with this simple primer you can go and explore the greatest genre in anime history IMHO, YMMV... Mecha!

Sounds like a good list. I'm a fan of all things old school, and a good show is a good show in any genre. Currently working my way through Votoms and Macross (the AE sets) when I have free time. I saw Robotech when it was coming out. (I was like 4. My mom's cousins were in their teens and huge fans, so I'd get caught up every time I was over.)

Are you familiar with the artwork of Richard Tang? He did the mech design (http://www.deviantart.com/view/15375408/) for Revolutionary Boy Touga (sure, we don't have mechas, but that didn't stop us from not taking advantage of an awesome mech designer...) I want to get a ridicuhuge print of his Ritus Ara (http://www.deviantart.com/view/4937466/) but every time I bring it up, he resolves to add more detail to it so it'll look good as big as I want it.

[Fencedude]

You know, if Utena HAD had robots, thats probably what they would have looked like.

Wow.

It totally took him less than two days to do it, too.

He's wasted on biomedical engineering. They don't appreciate him enough.

[Vicserr]

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monika said:
Are you familiar with the artwork of Richard Tang? He did the mech design (http://www.deviantart.com/view/15375408/) for Revolutionary Boy Touga (sure, we don't have mechas, but that didn't stop us from not taking advantage of an awesome mech designer...) I want to get a ridicuhuge print of his Ritus Ara (http://www.deviantart.com/view/4937466/) but every time I bring it up, he resolves to add more detail to it so it'll look good as big as I want it.

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Whoa, some beautiful pieces, he's got a great ability to portray mecha in his painting /images/graemlins/cool.gif

and about RBT, as I always say, everything is better with a Giant Robot /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[aquapermanence]

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lilitu93 said:
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aquapermanence said:
I would be much more worried by the various references to Rose of Versailles in Excel Saga, or the direct use of MariMite as a design template in Cromartie High School.


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As for your last comment, is this (http://www.geocities.com/marianaisho/gallery/chromatic.jpg) what you're referring to?

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Nope. In one of the last episodes of the anime, they restart the Cromartie story and turn all the characters into princessy girls, with corresponding changes to the title cards and design style. The liner notes explain that these changes were based on the Maria-sama ga Miteru anime, which was made around the same time.

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BTW, does Kannazuki no Miko fit into the ECT or is it too much parody?

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Wouldn't know, never saw it. But it's not hard to imagine that there will every once in a while be a show that takes up the mantle of deliberately referencing this whole macrocosm of a theme-driven genre. Whether those references have the effect of producing a chuckle or provoking serious thought will be the test of the show's place in anime history. In the meantime, it can be a fun ride.

Example: Ashita no Nadja is a pretty cute show. Fun, harmless, sometimes too silly for its own good. The ending animation is precious. Nadja herself is strong-minded but not disagreeably so, and if watched in small doses the show doesn't get too annoying. The first 25 episodes are a fairly standard traveling adventure type series, along the lines of but with less peril than something like Kamikaze Kaitou Jeanne or Secret of Cerulean Sand.

Episode 26 is, by contrast, one of the sexiest anime episodes I've ever seen. By "sexiest", I don't mean that it contained sex. It didn't. The entire effect was achieved through body language, lighting, set design, pacing, dialogue. It was subtle. You had to be there. The episode is basically a scene from the world of the Utena movie, where the cuts are long and the sun is a white glare and running after someone walking ahead doesn't mean you'll catch up to them.

After that it went back to the harmless traveling adventure story, and I was sad. I blame series director Takuya Igarashi, because I can't help but think that it was his influence that elevated that one episode above all the rest. That he worked on Goldfish Warning and Sailor Moon, two notable Ikuhara shows, I see as no coincidence. That his recent work includes Ouran High School Host Club, a show that fairly screams, "Oh yeah!? Well I can do sexy private school crossdressing spinning rose motifs too!" is the proverbial hand of man in the cookie jar of titans.

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aquapermanence said:
It was subtle. You had to be there. The episode is basically a scene from the world of the Utena movie, where the cuts are long and the sun is a white glare and running after someone walking ahead doesn't mean you'll catch up to them.

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It's even creepier if you've spent any time at the Alhambra (http://images.google.com/images?q=alhambra) and you realize that it looks exactly like they portray it. Not only that, it feels it. One of the few places I never found the Spanish sun and air to be terribly annoying, but rather, magical and spectral.

It's a huge place with a shitton of minute detail in everything. The more you run through it, the bigger it seems.

I was actually probably about Nadja's age the last time I was there.