A discussion about redemption and forgiveness

[roastedpekingduck]

It's a common theme, but different shows have different takes on it. In Haibane Renmei, for example, redemption and forgiveness start within a person. In Gungrave, redemption and forgiveness start with the outside ties of a person. What shows have you seen that feature a theme regarding redemption and forgiveness and what are their takes on it? How do they compare with your beliefs?

Make sure to not simply make a list of shows, and also, count this as a sort of return from a hiatus for SETA.

[jecca-neko]

One of my favorite bits of redemption and forgiveness is when the four sister in Sailor Moon R, Cooan, Beruche, Karaberas, and Petz, are forgiven by Sailor Moon for what they did and they go on to live normal human lives on Earth. Like most of the R villains, to include Ail and Ann, they were not really evil. Their dedication to Rubeus and wanting to please him is essentially the entire reason that they did what they did, but of course a bit of sibling rivalry was mixed in there too. The only disappointing thing about all of this is we never saw them again after R.

[Suzaku Seikun]

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roastedpekingduck said:
It's a common theme, but different shows have different takes on it. In Haibane Renmei, for example, redemption and forgiveness start within a person. In Gungrave, redemption and forgiveness start with the outside ties of a person. What shows have you seen that feature a theme regarding redemption and forgiveness and what are their takes on it? How do they compare with your beliefs?

Make sure to not simply make a list of shows, and also, count this as a sort of return from a hiatus for SETA.

[/ QUOTE ]

The way this post was worded sounded like a essay question in an exam.

Anyway, I think Kenshin in Rurouni Kenshin spends the entire series trying to find forgiveness for all the lives he took during his Battosai days. He now lives to protect the ones he cares about and vows never to kill again. The manga had a much better conclusion than the OAV, with Kenshin finally resolving his past demons.

[meryl]

Kenshin also takes the position that one can continue to work for atonement for as long as one lives. It's very anti-suicide. Seppuku doesn't bring atonement, in the Kenshin mythos.

[Magic_Knight]

Sakura Wars movie spoiler warning.

Not really a theme, but I like the part at the end of the Sakura Wars movie where all the girls in the Flower Division forgive Lachette during the play for what she had done even when she never asked for it nor deserved it.

[Serial Experiments Nobue]

Magic Knight, your screen name just made me think of one...

Magic Knight Rayearth: <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'> Basically the whole second part of the series. Hikaru, Umi, and Fuu all feel incredible remorse after what happened to Cephiro the first time when they thought they were saving it. When they come back the second time, all they want to do (especially Hikaru) is set things right again in Cephiro.</span>

[something]

I won't get specific, so as to avoid spoilers, but there are many cases where I don't support redemption or forgiveness as plot elements. Some characters just don't deserve it, and not seeing them pay their dues is problematic for my enjoyment of a show. I've always had a problem with the type of character who never wants to finish the job, because "everyone has some good in them!"

And while they waver, their friends and family die or at put in great danger. Bleh. I much prefer a character who is willing to get things done, even if that requires force. It's just more entertaining to watch, and impresses me more.

In other words, not everyone can or should be saved. Shows that believe they can, and make it a central element, often don't mesh well with me, although they may have other good qualities such that I'll overlook it.

[roastedpekingduck]

I must agree. I really hate "last minute redemptions", where the character has been a bastard for the entire show, then suddenly changes after some event and then is all but completely forgiven. In real life after all, I like to see people who do sh!t have the same sh!t thrown back at them.

By the way, replying to the poster above, SETA discussions always have been sort of essayish, but could you please tell me how I should reword it?

[Philemon]

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roastedpekingduck said:
I must agree. I really hate "last minute redemptions", where the character has been a bastard for the entire show, then suddenly changes after some event and then is all but completely forgiven. In real life after all, I like to see people who do sh!t have the same sh!t thrown back at them.


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Then you do not believe in "turning the other cheek" then, but "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?

[something]

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Philemon said:
Then you do not believe in "turning the other cheek" then, but "an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth"?

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Does it always have to be one or the other? The character's actions through the course of the story determine which should apply. of course, either way, the latter makes for more entertaining anime, in my eyes.

[itsuka]

Well, the show to occupy my current thoughts on this matter is Gankutsuou. The original novel of the Count of Monte Cristo had a redemption theme woven into it. Now that I saw disc 5 of Gankutsuou a few days ago, I definitely wonder how whether this take on the material will include the redemption theme and if it does, how it will be worked into the material. So far, the new script surely likes to paint a vast array of human emotion into it, so I doubt they'll completely do away with it, but they already worked around the redemption line taken in the novel by such a simple thing as changing the order of events around.

The spoilers for the anime are up to and including disc 5. If you haven't seen episodes 17 to 20 yet, you surely do not want to be spoiled about those, trust me...

In the novel, <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'> redemption starts when the Count, who was ready to sacrifice Valentine in his revenge against De Villefort because his love for the Morel family interfered. Maximilien Morel made him realize that that his killing rampage might come with too high a cost, and the count turns around and saves Valentines life. Also, he listens to Mercedes, who begs him to spare the life of her son in the duel, and is resigned to be killed instead. This redemption line is the reason why he in the end does not kill Danglars, even if he takes away all his money. As a reward, he is offered a new chance for happiness with Haidee. </span>

In the anime, <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'> this road is closed. Valentine is not saved by the count, but by her friends. The plees of Mercedes to spare her son's life are not heeded, and the count is entirely willing to kill Albert, whose death is only prevented by the sacrifice of Franz. Given the developments, it looks like in this form the tale takes it is the younger generation who will have to stop the count and his rampage, hinted at by the preview for disc 6. I'm very interested which form the confrontation of the next generation with the count will ultimately take, either an all-out battle, or perhaps they will still manage to show the count a road to redemption. I can't wait to find out...</span>

If anyone wants to reply to this Gankutsuou thread, please indicate separate spoilers for the last 4 episodes that I haven't seen yet...

[Njr Scrawl]

As a twisted example, I'd say Kirika getting forgiven by Mireille in Noir. Not quite sure how Kirika redeems herself exactly, or whether Mireille has just become too attatched to her. /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif

[bobma]

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Itsuka said:
Well, the show to occupy my current thoughts on this matter is Gankutsuou. The original novel of the Count of Monte Cristo had a redemption theme woven into it. Now that I saw disc 5 of Gankutsuou a few days ago, I definitely wonder how whether this take on the material will include the redemption theme and if it does, how it will be worked into the material. So far, the new script surely likes to paint a vast array of human emotion into it, so I doubt they'll completely do away with it, but they already worked around the redemption line taken in the novel by such a simple thing as changing the order of events around.

The spoilers for the anime are up to and including disc 5. If you haven't seen episodes 17 to 20 yet, you surely do not want to be spoiled about those, trust me...

In the novel, <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'> redemption starts when the Count, who was ready to sacrifice Valentine in his revenge against De Villefort because his love for the Morel family interfered. Maximilien Morel made him realize that that his killing rampage might come with too high a cost, and the count turns around and saves Valentines life. Also, he listens to Mercedes, who begs him to spare the life of her son in the duel, and is resigned to be killed instead. This redemption line is the reason why he in the end does not kill Danglars, even if he takes away all his money. As a reward, he is offered a new chance for happiness with Haidee. </span>

In the anime, <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'> this road is closed. Valentine is not saved by the count, but by her friends. The plees of Mercedes to spare her son's life are not heeded, and the count is entirely willing to kill Albert, whose death is only prevented by the sacrifice of Franz. Given the developments, it looks like in this form the tale takes it is the younger generation who will have to stop the count and his rampage, hinted at by the preview for disc 6. I'm very interested which form the confrontation of the next generation with the count will ultimately take, either an all-out battle, or perhaps they will still manage to show the count a road to redemption. I can't wait to find out...</span>

If anyone wants to reply to this Gankutsuou thread, please indicate separate spoilers for the last 4 episodes that I haven't seen yet...

[/ QUOTE ]

I've posted my opinion about the series' end several times, but upon searching, my more elaborate posts seem to be either too old or eaten up by one of the past forum crashes, so here I go again. I'll start off with a post from rec.arts.anime.misc I read recently that sums up my view on it rather well:

From here on spoilers right to ep26:
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Dave Baranyi said on RAAM:<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Essentially, the Gonzo adaptation totally lost the ending message of
"Redemption/Salvation" that made the novel something other than a serialized
potboiler. By focussing upon the revenge and making most everyone "insane"
the story lost all depth of characterization and the story lost its point.</span>

[/ QUOTE ]

<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>GONZO had a IMO marvelous start and during the first half of the series I was quite well entertained, but when it dawned on me that they turned the Count into a complete nutcase, my enjoyment more or less completely vanished. One of the great features of the book (IMO) was, that his actions weren't just focused on revenge on the wrongdoers, but also to protect the innocent and reward the just. As the book goes on, he also questions himself whether he is still doing what is right and even refrains from killing Albert for his past love for Mercedes. There's none of this in the anime and in the end reason and love didn't manage to reign in his thirst for revenge. Thus the anime count became more or less a villain himself, who didn't know when to stop.

Of course you could now say, that Gankutsuou is only an adaption with "it's own vision" or something like that and maybe youre right, but I guess what soured the whole deal for me was, that due to the first half I was suckered into believing that the series would keep faithful to the overall theme of the book, whereas in reality this was the main aspect that got turned around 180°.</span>

[roastedpekingduck]

Throughout Gankutsuou, I sometimes have rooted for the Count, because some of those conspirators were really quite bad to him. In the anime, however, the Count seems a lot more devilish than the one in the novel. In the novel, the count is one who is more out for a sense of justice, while in the anime, the count wants to have revenge on his enemies. That is the impression that I got.

Replying to another poster, I sometimes believe in "turn the other cheek" for minor actions. If somebody stole my car, I could forgive that person. But if somebody literally took out one of my eyes, I would be far less forgiving.

[musouka]

I think what you have to keep in mind about Gankutsuou is that it's not really about the Count. It's the "Count of Monte Cristo" from the other perspective. The perspective of those who are innocent except for the fact that their guilty parents gave birth to them.

And even then, these kids love their parents. Of course the man that comes barreling into their lives and starts destroying everything that they love isn't going to come across as an "avenging angel", but more like a psychopath.

[bobma]

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musouka said:
I think what you have to keep in mind about Gankutsuou is that it's not really about the Count. It's the "Count of Monte Cristo" from the other perspective. The perspective of those who are innocent except for the fact that their guilty parents gave birth to them.

And even then, these kids love their parents. Of course the man that comes barreling into their lives and starts destroying everything that they love isn't going to come across as an "avenging angel", but more like a psychopath.

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Spoiler tags, just in case:<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Of course they see him as a psychopath in the anime, because thats what GONZO turned him into. The book count also kicked most of the kids out of their comfort zone, but they still had a rather positive image of him by the end of the story, after everything was said and done.

I guess I would have enjoyed the anime reinterpretation more if I had known from the outset that it's more of a "what if..." version of the count than a retelling in a new environment. Even then I think that the message of the book is more powerful and leaves you more satisfied as a whole. Pity GONZO didn't think so (IMO of course). </span>

[musouka]

I completely disagree. I think the Count is a good match to his novel counterpart. (Uh, "kicking the kids out of their comfort zones"? More like destroying their entire lives because of something they didn't do.)

Maybe I didn't make my perspective clear, so I'll try to explain. Gonzo didn't make the Count into a psychopath, the Count was always a psychopath from the perspective of those he took vengence upon merely for having been born to the wrong parents. Since the anime isn't about "How dare you do this to me!" but instead "Guy comes to wreck our lives because of something we didn't do!" the shift makes perfect sense.

As far as the ending of the series:
<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>I thought it was much better than the "set sail into the sunset" ending of the novel.</span>

[bobma]

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musouka said:
I completely disagree. I think the Count is a good match to his novel counterpart. (Uh, "kicking the kids out of their comfort zones"? More like destroying their entire lives because of something they didn't do.)

Maybe I didn't make my perspective clear, so I'll try to explain. Gonzo didn't make the Count into a psychopath, the Count was always a psychopath from the perspective of those he took vengence upon merely for having been born to the wrong parents. Since the anime isn't about "How dare you do this to me!" but instead "Guy comes to wreck our lives because of something we didn't do!" the shift makes perfect sense.

As far as the ending of the series:
<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>I thought it was much better than the "set sail into the sunset" ending of the novel.</span>

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Then I guess we have to agree to disagree on this topic.

[Chloe]

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Wrath of the Njr said:
As a twisted example, I'd say Kirika getting forgiven by Mireille in Noir. Not quite sure how Kirika redeems herself exactly, or whether Mireille has just become too attatched to her. /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif

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Well, I'd say there was not that much she had to redeem herself for; considering her age at the time of the infraction. Having been Mireille's partner and traveled down that road into their pasts together probably wiped it out...though it could have gone either way, at that. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

Mireille did realize by the end that she could very well have ended up in Kirika's shoes, and I think that played a part in her final decision also.

[pianocello]

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Kingmole said:
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Wrath of the Njr said:
As a twisted example, I'd say Kirika getting forgiven by Mireille in Noir. Not quite sure how Kirika redeems herself exactly, or whether Mireille has just become too attatched to her. /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I'd say there was not that much she had to redeem herself for; considering her age at the time of the infraction. Having been Mireille's partner and traveled down that road into their pasts together probably wiped it out...though it could have gone either way, at that. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

Mireille did realize by the end that she could very well have ended up in Kirika's shoes, and I think that played a part in her final decision also.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maybe they just fell in love with each other? /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif