Eva and all its confusion

[Flameswordsman86]

It should be said that this topic contains a bucket load of SPOILERS



Just finished watching Eva last week after putting it off for so long and was left with so much confusing that needed clarification. Wikipedia helped a hell of a lot, but I'm still left with questions. Opinions about the Q's or the whole show would be EXTREMELY helpful aswell, as it seems many things are up in the air concerning Eva so you're forced to make you're own conclusions

I'll get this out of the way 1st: I've seen many reviewers slate End of Eva, but after reading about it at WP it sounds rather eventful and entertaining. Gratuitous assault of the senses, or actually entertaining?

Eva's. Were they cloned, artificial replica's, or what?

Was Adam in SEELE custody like Lilith was with Nerv? Surely the old gits at SEELE would have needed Adam to create Koworu dummy plugs, and apparently all but Unit #01 were Adam's children.....

Whats the deal with Kaji delivering Ikari a featus like Adam that was supposedly injected into his arm? Anything ever come of the 'God-Hand'? [Berserk reference]

What was you're take on the masturbation sequence in EoE? Sounds rather grotesque upon reading about it...

And lastly: Any idea what the Angel's variation on the 3rd Impact would have been? Ikari wanted to use it and Instrumentality to be with his wife again, SEELE wanted to convert the world into a hive-mind of fluid, but what about the Angel's and their constant attempts at getting to Adam [who was really Lilith. Stupid Angel's]. Would they have chosen an explosion, fluid hive-mind etc.. etc...?


And what about the tenuous links to RahXephon. I've seen it debated ferociously before, but I was suprised at just how many things RX ripped from Eva [Instrumentality, Misato/Shinji relationship, beat-down on the friend scenario, seemingly tragic-but-hopeful-ending etc.]


Beyond that, you're overall opinion of Eva would help enormously /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[canaryfarmer]

If you haven't watched End of Evangelion, I wouldn't say you've finished watching yet.

[kakugo]

The following post contains SPOILERS. Ass loads of them. Don't read it. Ever!

Also, any and all opinions are my own. I'm not Anno, and since he hasn't given an interview on Evangelion since before the TV show premiered, don't bet on one. Some of the facts in the series may be off: feel free to correct me if so. Been a year or two since I've actually watched the TV series.

Before you continue: WATCH END OF EVANGELION. Right now. I don't give a damn what others have said about it; it'll answer most of the questions even the Director's Cut left unanswered, even if it raises another thousand questions in the process.

End of Evangelion is essentially Anno doing one of two things; either finishing one of the most controversial TV shows in the most controversial ways he could possibly come up with and was denied on it's TV run, or looking his greatest fans square in the eye and having this conversation with them:

"We want more EVA!"
"No you don't."
"Yes we do!"
"Trust me. You don't."
"Honest!"
"Are you SURE?"
"Uh-huh."
"Don't say I didn't warn you..."

I happen to think End Of is one of the most brilliant pieces of animation in the world, but I can also see why people absolutely despise it. Much like the rest of Evangelion, it starts out likable and conventional and degrades in to painfully esoteric and beautiful philosiphy/psychology which assaults the viewer at every single level of comfort. It also features some of the most brutal and unwarranted violence against some of the more complex and likable fictional characters out there: it's as bloddy and cruel as almost any anime I can name, but with 26+ episodes worth of attatchment to who we're seeing get torn to pieces. It's something I can only liken to an animated Stanley Kubrick or Alejandro Jodorowsky film.

Eva's: Cloned from Adam, I believe. Possibly Unit-00 through Unit-02 were cloned from Lilith and the Mass Production Units were cloned from Adam. Gendou and SEELE weren't terribly honest with anybody about the whole "which Angel is which" thing, so there's not much help in the series itself there... Unit-00 and Unit-02 were also different from the Mass Production models, and that implication might mean they were cloned from an imperfect source as well (Lilith). Anyone?

Adam must have been in SEELE's custody, or at least enough of his DNA to create Kaworu and the Mass Production Units/the Kaworu dummy plug system. Exactly why they allow Gendou to hold it isn't totally clear, but it seems that early on in the show (when the exchange actually takes place) SEELE is far more trusting of him than... well, by the time things go down the way they do.

Watch End of Eva to see what becomes of Adam: he's quite vital to Instrumentality, after all.

Instrumentality would be the same no matter what, in a sense. The difference is who was martyred and thus became humanity's avatar in the hive-mind: because Insutmentality is based upon their being no true individual, whoever was sacrificed (crucified) could shape the perception that this hive mind dictated. The biggest mind in the hive, so to speak. In a way, that avatar would be God; as such, Gendou could envision a world in which he and Yui were together again. This is why Shinji envisions his own perception of reality in the final TV episode; these are possible interpretations of what Shinji takes the world to be (and why he was trapped in essentially non-existant space in episode 25, as he envisioned the world to be a cruel and lonely place). The angels seek to return to their own original state and stop fighting with their bretherin, mankind. SEELE seeks to perfect mankind's ignorance by forcing it to evolve in to God. Gendou wants to be with his wife one more time. And Shinji's just caught in the middle of it.

Some people argue that the TV ending is his acceptance of instrumentality, while End of is his rejection thereof. I happen to think they're the exact same ending... but arguing about Evangelion a decade after it's completion is exactly what makes it... well, Eva.

The masturbation sequence is what it is; a cross-section of Anno's mind. While you can argue that Shinji is a complex character, much of End of Evangelion is so frank and disturbed that it can't possibly be much more than a reflection of the director's own issues. Shinji is a character who tries to comfort himself by seeking others' approval and lives through the praise he's given. He's a character who blames himself for every problem in the world and escapes responsibility by saying he's incompitent. Just before the masturbation sequence, Shinji is shaking a comatose girl of his own age and begging her for help. Shinji looks to others to save him from himself... despite the flak fans give him for being the total opposite of the head-strong mecha pilots of Go Nagai's era of influence, Shinji is a complex charater with major social problems. He isn't trying to rape Asuka or anything; he's merely doing what makes himself feel good and them hating himself for it afterwards. Shinji masturbating over her is no different than him begging for her help.

Besides... you can't be disgusted at Shinji for masturbating over Asuka. The majority of us here have probably done the exact same thing. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

For the record, I like Shinji: I think most boys at the age of 14 if put back in their mother's womb and ordered to fight giant monsters would have severe issues after the fact too. And most people I've met have major issues BEFORE the involvement of mecha in their lives. A big part of why Evangelion either clicks with or alienates people are the characters. They're well developed and change over the course of the series... but not always for the better. If you think the world is full of people with deep seated issues, accepting that every character has deep flaws (that are more than a cheaply tacked-on stereotype) then you'll get a lot more out of Eva than someone who just wants to know what the symbolic and religious end is all about. Believing the world of Evangelion is hinged as much on the characters themselves as it is the religious insanity that serves more as symbolic context for the folly of man than anything else.

All that having been said: I hate teh rei. I don't care how lovely she is. She creeps me right the f**k out. And it's not just the albino thing, because I like Kaworu.

As to the connection between Evangelion and RahXephon: never seen the latter, so can't help you there.

[aquapermanence]

Restating a bit of what's already been said, but here we go. (Watch the movie! In fact, watch both of them! Death and Rebirth adds maybe 90 seconds of new material, and non-crucial information at that, but every little bit helps you understand more.)

[ QUOTE ]
Flameswordsman86 said:
Eva's. Were they cloned, artificial replica's, or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Just as in the Genesis legend, the Evas were made from Adam, unlike Lilith who was always separate from and equivalent to Adam. Human Instrumentality requires Lilith, Adam, and a human soul. In the movie, Rei took Adam back from Gendo and assimilated with Lilith. The human soul was Yui, who had merged with EVA-01. Shinji's role in the whole affair was merely to act as a catalyst and determine the direction that Yui would take Instrumentality (leaving the choice of complementation up to the individual); the Evas can't move without a pilot who can synchronize with them, which requires that their souls have strong feelings for the occupant.

[ QUOTE ]
Was Adam in SEELE custody like Lilith was with Nerv?

[/ QUOTE ]

While the Angels and most of the people involved believed that NERV was holding Adam in Terminal Dogma, it was in fact Lilith. As the two have the same bodily composition they're very difficult to tell apart, hence the Angels were attracted to Adam and Lilith (and even the Evas) once they got within a certain range. We can assume that SEELE was keeping Adam until Kaji moved him to NERV, at which point Gendo implanted Adam in his own hand. Gendo intended to take control of the project away from SEELE, but after SEELE sent Kaworu it forced him to begin Instrumentality. He had believed that Rei would go along with him (since he believed that he and Yui had the same goals), but she chose Shinji in favor out of maternal protectiveness and hope for the future.

[ QUOTE ]
And lastly: Any idea what the Angel's variation on the 3rd Impact would have been?

[/ QUOTE ]

If an Angel were to come into contact with Lilith, then all other Angels and humans would cease to exist. There would be exactly one being. In the same way, when humanity became one with Lilith, all other forms of life ceased to exist... with perhaps the exception of the eternal soul drifting in EVA-01. Eh, it's confusing.

Suffice to say that in Second Impact, the revival of Adam caused a drastic environmental change that killed off half the humans on the planet. It should be sufficient to say that Angels are fundamentally incompatible with each other, and with humans, and will typically destroy each other simply by existing. Of course, the same can be said of humans themselves: so long as their AT Fields are raised, their communication is limited, the can never truly understand one another, and their existence will cause mutual pain. Sort of a parallel, there.

[ QUOTE ]
And what about the tenuous links to RahXephon. I've seen it debated ferociously before, but I was suprised at just how many things RX ripped from Eva [Instrumentality, Misato/Shinji relationship, beat-down on the friend scenario, seemingly tragic-but-hopeful-ending etc.]

[/ QUOTE ]

Tenuous at best. RahXephon shares some similarities to Evangelion in its story structure and designs. Both shows are very much the same kind of story, especially with the non-linear presentation and the impermanence of death as a plot device. What makes one show enjoyable also makes the other enjoyable, but from the reactions I've seen you'll probably enjoy one much more than the other. In my own experience, I found RahXephon to be too quietly contemplative (without saying enough), and bloated with too many characters who didn't reveal their personalities until the very end. I was also put off by the fact that one of the most important pieces of information regarding one character's knowledge was revealed not within the series, but in the (unlicensed) video game OVA--in short it felt as if information was deliberately being withheld not to craft a more intricate story, but merely to create a sense of mystery and suspense where none needed to be. By and large, it's not a "fun" series to leap into that grows gradually darker as it progresses; rather it requires both a patience and effort on the part of the viewer that isn't rewarded even by the end. Indeed, it feels as though Ayato's apathy in RahXephon is ultimately the correct way to view the story: if he's so important yet no one is willing to tell him what's going on, then he might as well just do whatever he wants and let the world take its course. Shinji, on the other hand, is in a constant struggle with his world, and even with the fact that he has to participate in changing it, giving Evangelion a sense of both immediacy and consequence that isn't found even in most giant robot shows.

[ QUOTE ]
Beyond that, you're overall opinion of Eva would help enormously /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The show has a lot of merchandise. Too much merchandise. You may be tempted to buy it. Just remember that the show is awesome, but that everything that isn't the show is peripheral, ancillary, superficial, and unnecessary. You'll experience genuine emotions for these characters, and if you let it, this show can change how you think. But don't believe for a minute that it means you have to buy that limited-edition Asuka-in-a-Santa-suit-with-antlers figurine. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif It's damn cute, but it's completely meaningless.

[DocWatson]

The Evangelion Otaku Page's Neon Genesis Evangelion: Frequently Asked Questions (http://www.evaotaku.com/html/evafaq2.html) page may also be of help.

[tanegar]

[ QUOTE ]
Kakugo said:
All that having been said: I hate teh rei. I don't care how lovely she is. She creeps me right the f**k out. And it's not just the albino thing, because I like Kaworu.

[/ QUOTE ]

Boy, sump'n 'bout you ain't right.

[vtr9kvictor]

[ QUOTE ]
Flameswordsman86 said:
It should be said that this topic contains a bucket load of SPOILERS



Just finished watching Eva last week after putting it off for so long and was left with so much confusing that needed clarification. Wikipedia helped a hell of a lot, but I'm still left with questions. Opinions about the Q's or the whole show would be EXTREMELY helpful aswell, as it seems many things are up in the air concerning Eva so you're forced to make you're own conclusions

I'll get this out of the way 1st: I've seen many reviewers slate End of Eva, but after reading about it at WP it sounds rather eventful and entertaining. Gratuitous assault of the senses, or actually entertaining?

Eva's. Were they cloned, artificial replica's, or what?

Was Adam in SEELE custody like Lilith was with Nerv? Surely the old gits at SEELE would have needed Adam to create Koworu dummy plugs, and apparently all but Unit #01 were Adam's children.....

Whats the deal with Kaji delivering Ikari a featus like Adam that was supposedly injected into his arm? Anything ever come of the 'God-Hand'? [Berserk reference]

What was you're take on the masturbation sequence in EoE? Sounds rather grotesque upon reading about it...

And lastly: Any idea what the Angel's variation on the 3rd Impact would have been? Ikari wanted to use it and Instrumentality to be with his wife again, SEELE wanted to convert the world into a hive-mind of fluid, but what about the Angel's and their constant attempts at getting to Adam [who was really Lilith. Stupid Angel's]. Would they have chosen an explosion, fluid hive-mind etc.. etc...?


And what about the tenuous links to RahXephon. I've seen it debated ferociously before, but I was suprised at just how many things RX ripped from Eva [Instrumentality, Misato/Shinji relationship, beat-down on the friend scenario, seemingly tragic-but-hopeful-ending etc.]


Beyond that, you're overall opinion of Eva would help enormously /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with some other posters, if you have not yet watched Evangelion Death and Rebirth and End of Evangelion, you ARE NOT FINISHED watching it. you should go out and get them, watch them and then come back.

And be sure to watch the EoE voice actor commentary track with Amanda Winn Lee. "Baby batter" indeed.

Oh and ASUKA RULES!!!!

[Quiddity]

[ QUOTE ]
And what about the tenuous links to RahXephon. I've seen it debated ferociously before, but I was suprised at just how many things RX ripped from Eva [Instrumentality, Misato/Shinji relationship, beat-down on the friend scenario, seemingly tragic-but-hopeful-ending etc.]


[/ QUOTE ]

RX ripped Instrumentality from Eva? The problem with that is two fold:

1) Eva 'ripped' Instrumentality from Space Runaway Ideon
2) Rahxephon doesn't have anything like Instrumentality. The world being redone does not equal melding all of humanity into a single existence.

Ideon had the 'seemingly tragic-but-hopeful-ending' too. RahXephon and Eva are in the same genre which is why they're similar, but Rah hardly 'ripped off' Eva. Infact Rah was made by ex-Sunrise staff members, who were the people who made the shows that influenced Eva in the first place. Rah's biggest influence is Brave Raideen, not Eva.

[Lum-chan]

Or this page (Ikari Gendo's FAQs) http://www.therossman.com/evafaqs.html actually gets into the nitty gritty of Eva a whole lot more than all the other pages.

[Flameswordsman86]

Thanks for the links, people, they have indeed helped

After checking them out yesterday I found out a good deal more info: The 1st Impact, Adam and Lilith and their mythological ties to Cain and Abel, the fact that Adam/Lilith are supposed to be equals and above all other Angel's, why Adam woke up over Antartica, the real reason for the catastrophic release of energy in the 2nd Impact, Liliths Black Moon being the Geo-front

The reasoning behind Eva-01's origins seem to vary. Its apparently supposed to be a direct clone of Lilith [presumably done by SEELE and their plans to use Liliths powers], but also looks nearly identical to Adam. Some sites speculate that its a clone of Adam, while the official story is meant to be Lilith

[Flameswordsman86]

[ QUOTE ]
Quiddity said:
[ QUOTE ]
And what about the tenuous links to RahXephon. I've seen it debated ferociously before, but I was suprised at just how many things RX ripped from Eva [Instrumentality, Misato/Shinji relationship, beat-down on the friend scenario, seemingly tragic-but-hopeful-ending etc.]


[/ QUOTE ]

RX ripped Instrumentality from Eva? The problem with that is two fold:

1) Eva 'ripped' Instrumentality from Space Runaway Ideon

[/ QUOTE ]

Good to know. Im looking up a review of SPI now

[ QUOTE ]

2) Rahxephon doesn't have anything like Instrumentality. The world being redone does not equal melding all of humanity into a single existence.


[/ QUOTE ]

Or the world being redone as in the Eva TV series.....I see what you're getting at, SEELE's instrumentality was without any reality altering madness, but Shinji's in the TV show wasn't. RahXephons harmoic-thing-a-majig was also a reality altering event that set Ayato's wishes into place

[ QUOTE ]
Ideon had the 'seemingly tragic-but-hopeful-ending' too. RahXephon and Eva are in the same genre which is why they're similar, but Rah hardly 'ripped off' Eva. Infact Rah was made by ex-Sunrise staff members, who were the people who made the shows that influenced Eva in the first place. Rah's biggest influence is Brave Raideen, not Eva.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've seen the similarities between Rah and Raideen mentioned in the RX Wikipedia page, but theres still no denying the key plot-points that link RX and NGE [no insult to RX, I still rate it very highly]

[Flameswordsman86]

Bought the EoE movie and am just waiting for it to arrive. Hopefully viewing it will bring me closure and break me out of the Eva-contemplation I keep falling into. Maybe it will also purge me of the wierd dream I had about the last day of school and the love connection I had with Asuka [wierd because I found her infuriatingly annoying in the show and yet the perfect woman in my dream]

Question: Is Death and Rebirth really necesarry? Im really not a completist anymore, but if D+R offers any new insight or is a nice remake I'd be interested...

[aquapermanence]

[ QUOTE ]
Flameswordsman86 said:
Question: Is Death and Rebirth really necesarry?

[/ QUOTE ]

Not necessary; you can get all the information you need online or from the Director's Cut episodes. Still, it's a nice piece to watch and makes a good transition into EoE, especially if it's been a while since you've seen the show.

It's a lot like the "Tracing a Path" episodes done during the body of the series: mostly recap with a bit of new information, put together in a very logical and concise way.

[KK1]

[ QUOTE ]
Flameswordsman86 said:
Thanks for the links, people, they have indeed helped

The reasoning behind Eva-01's origins seem to vary. Its apparently supposed to be a direct clone of Lilith [presumably done by SEELE and their plans to use Liliths powers], but also looks nearly identical to Adam. Some sites speculate that its a clone of Adam, while the official story is meant to be Lilith

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait I'm confused now, isn't it Adam? They're Evas made from Adam like Eve was made from Adam's rib, right?

[Flameswordsman86]

[ QUOTE ]
KK1 said:
[ QUOTE ]
Flameswordsman86 said:
Thanks for the links, people, they have indeed helped

The reasoning behind Eva-01's origins seem to vary. Its apparently supposed to be a direct clone of Lilith [presumably done by SEELE and their plans to use Liliths powers], but also looks nearly identical to Adam. Some sites speculate that its a clone of Adam, while the official story is meant to be Lilith

[/ QUOTE ]

Wait I'm confused now, isn't it Adam? They're Evas made from Adam like Eve was made from Adam's rib, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Apparently not. Every Eva but #01 are supposed to be made from Adam, and even though #01 looks very similar to the 'being of light' Adam, its supposed to be a direct clone of Lilith [even though it looks nothing like her]. Go figure....

[Gersen]

[ QUOTE ]
Flameswordsman86 said:
The reasoning behind Eva-01's origins seem to vary. Its apparently supposed to be a direct clone of Lilith [presumably done by SEELE and their plans to use Liliths powers], but also looks nearly identical to Adam. Some sites speculate that its a clone of Adam, while the official story is meant to be Lilith

[/ QUOTE ]

Eva-01 is not supposed to be a direct clone of Lilith, it was created using Lilith DNA, like humans who where born from Lilith too.

The main purpose was to use Eva-01 to start the third impact for humans. Unlike the others angels, humans can't start the third impact by themself because they are not a "complete" angel but only fraction of the 18th one. But Eva-01, along with a human soul, can. That's why Eva-01 is so special for Seele.

Gersen

[Gersen]

[ QUOTE ]
KK1 said:
Wait I'm confused now, isn't it Adam? They're Evas made from Adam like Eve was made from Adam's rib, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like mentioned numerous times by Gainax, the main reason why they choose to put some western religion reference in Eva was because it was "exotic" for japanese, their purpose never was to make something "accurate" to the Bible or other books their borrow their ideas from.

So it's a mistake to believe that everything is related to christian religion or even that everything that happen is mean to be a "accurate" religious symbol.

A lot of things happens just because they thought it would look or sound cool /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Gersen

[GanChan]

[ QUOTE ]
Gersen said:
[ QUOTE ]
KK1 said:
Wait I'm confused now, isn't it Adam? They're Evas made from Adam like Eve was made from Adam's rib, right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Like mentioned numerous times by Gainax, the main reason why they choose to put some western religion reference in Eva was because it was "exotic" for japanese, their purpose never was to make something "accurate" to the Bible or other books their borrow their ideas from.

So it's a mistake to believe that everything is related to christian religion or even that everything that happen is mean to be a "accurate" religious symbol.

A lot of things happens just because they thought it would look or sound cool /images/graemlins/wink.gif.

Gersen

[/ QUOTE ]

Ikuhara made many of his choices in Utena for similar reasons, as I recall. And they DO look/sound cool, so on that account, mission accomplished I guess.

It's probably for the best. If Evangelion made total logical sense, we wouldn't still be arguing about it 10 years later. I put it in the category of "Rorschach Test" shows, where the audience is forced to bring more of themselves to the table than usual to provide a final individual interpretation.

It's like a puzzle with a couple of pieces missing. What the missing pieces look like, and whether they're really missing on purpose, is a fun topic of discussion -- and most importantly for Gainax, sells DVDs.

I do like the show, but I have trouble rewatching it in its entirety because the smoke-and-mirrors approach occasionally gets to be a bit much for me.

[Flameswordsman86]

So, I finally saw EoE today. Deep stuff. I re-watched the movie with the commentary from Rei's voice-actress and 2 other guys, funny stuff /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

Now that im kinda finished with the Eva series [I do think i'll be getting Death/Rebirth to make future visits to the franchise easier to watch], I really want some hardcore opinions. I don't know how others see it, but to me it screams opinions with all its open-ended'ness

So here are some very quick Q's I jotted down from the movie


. Misato and Shinji. Misguided Mother/Guardian, actual feelings for him, or what? [I go the Parental Guardian route myself, still in love with dead ol' Kaji and doing anything to wake Shinji up]

. Ikari's words to Ritsuko?

. Asuka. Did she actually die in battle with Eva's #1-9?

. Ending: Adam and Eve planetray re-start, everyone revived, only a few, etc. etc....

. Why's Shinji strangle Asuka at the end?

. Mass-produced Eva's #1-9. Angelic clone drag-queens? Whale hybrid? SEELE has obsession with big lips?

. Last line of the movie: What is Asuka's comment in reference to?

[Isuzu Inugami]

[ QUOTE ]
Flameswordsman86 said:

Now that im kinda finished with the Eva series , I really want some hardcore opinions. I don't know how others see it, but to me it screams opinions with all its open-ended'ness

[/ QUOTE ]

Like the rest of us get it? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]

So here are some very quick Q's I jotted down from the movie


. Misato and Shinji. Misguided Mother/Guardian, actual feelings for him, or what? [I go the Parental Guardian route myself, still in love with dead ol' Kaji and doing anything to wake Shinji up]

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I go with the latter... well, not that parental (IIRC, she offers herself to him once during the show, as well. For her, perhaps, sexual relations are the only way she knows to offer comfort to another human being.)
[ QUOTE ]

. Asuka. Did she actually die in battle with Eva's #1-9?

[/ QUOTE ]

I never took that away from it. (No Rei appearance, for one thing....)

[ QUOTE ]
. Ending: Adam and Eve planetray re-start, everyone revived, only a few, etc. etc....


[/ QUOTE ]

Planetary restart, I guess; or rather, Shinji turns down instrumentality, and so we have an event--Third Impact--that's pretty much left wreckage like Second Impact--and over the horizon, the survivors get to carry on being human, although with the memory of this moment when everyone was everyone. But I think part of why I think it's that is that I just despise "Adam and Eve" endings.

[ QUOTE ]
. Why's Shinji strangle Asuka at the end?

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh, man, I keep asking that myself. The shock of being reembodied, of being able to feel instead of the universal mind of Instrumentality, devoid of pain and misunderstanding, but also devoid of possibility. He's freaking out that he's human, trapped in his own skull again, that he can't understand Asuka anymore, that there's something that isn't part of him since he isn't Instrumentalized anymore. He loves her but knows she doesn't love him. Shit, man, I don't know!

[ QUOTE ]

. Last line of the movie: What is Asuka's comment in reference to?

[/ QUOTE ]

She's disgusted by being human, rather than Instrumentalized... or it's the whole reembodiement thing, being [i]able to feel means being able to feel negative things as well. Also, Shinji was just strangling her....

[canaryfarmer]

[ QUOTE ]
Flameswordsman86 said:

. Ikari's words to Ritsuko?



[/ QUOTE ]

I always liked the idea that he said "I never loved you."

[Gersen]

[ QUOTE ]
Flameswordsman86 said:
. Misato and Shinji. Misguided Mother/Guardian, actual feelings for him, or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't think she realy love him in a "sexual/boyfriend" kind of way. It's just that she know she is about to die and that's it's the last time she ever saw Shinji. So it's just her way to show him that she realy cared for him.


[ QUOTE ]
. Asuka. Did she actually die in battle with Eva's #1-9?

[/ QUOTE ]

Debatable, her synchronization level is high enough to be physicaly hurt by some of the damage infliged to Eva-02, but not all of them (she didn't die when the Eva-02 was eaten by the MP).

[ QUOTE ]
. Ending: Adam and Eve planetray re-start, everyone revived, only a few, etc. etc....

[/ QUOTE ]

It's mentioned just after Shinji refused instrumentality,
"[i]If their hearts can create their own image they will be able to restore their humans bodies"

"All lifeforms have the power to restore themself and the wish to live"

[ QUOTE ]
. Why's Shinji strangle Asuka at the end?

[/ QUOTE ]

For the same reason he tried to strangle her image during in the complementarity, and he stop for the same reasons.

(WARNING the following is my own personal theory, not an official one by Gainax)

IMHO Asuka represent Shinji relation with the "others", all his life he tried to avoid being hurt by others by closing himself and running away. Asuka represent all the thing he tried to avoid, she make fun of him and hurt him, by killing her he make everything stop... but then he discover that even if she sometime make him suffer, he like her and don't want to live without her.

IMHO that's also why he refuse complementarity, he is offered a world where he would never suffer again but he decide that this world is wrong and that even if the "others" will make him suffer again he don't want to live without them.

That's why I prefer the Movie ending over the TV ending. He is offered a "perfect" world but for the first time in the serie he make an important and courageous decision, he refused it and decide that he prefer to live in the real world with all it's flaws rather than in an artificial paradise.

[ QUOTE ]
. Last line of the movie: What is Asuka's comment in reference to?

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It was supposed to reflect Asuka state of mind, she just woke up after having beind mind rapped to find herself in a middle of a fight, which she lose, after that she is being mutilated, nearly eaten alive, fused with the rest of humanity. And if it wasn't enough, alter all that, she was nearly strangled by Shinji.

Gersen

[wizardz199]

/images/graemlins/knowital.gif The EVA unit in my opinion are descendants of the first so called angel "Adam". Or... they could be the companion of Adam. Why do you think they are called EVA? Doesn't that sound like Eve, to you? I am beginning to draw conclusions on what the EVA unit exactly is. I am reading the manga series and it clarifies and sheds more light on what the Evangelion universe is all about. I also am aware that EVA si short for Evangelion, but they do call it EVA alot and refer to alot of Judeo-Christian beleifs and documents such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, Old Testament, and New Testament and even some of the Koran and Kabala teachings thrown in. So is it so far from our minds to conclude that the EVA unti is more than something created by mankind, but an actual companion to Adam, in episode they do call the EVA unit "Her". Think about it...

[Gersen]

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wizardz199 said:
/images/graemlins/knowital.gif The EVA unit in my opinion are descendants of the first so called angel "Adam". Or... they could be the companion of Adam.

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They are no companing of Adam, the angels are born from Adam, Humanity is born from Lilith. The big debate is if Lilith was born from Adam too or allways was a separate being, Eva were artificialy created by man. Remember in the Anime the room full of corpses of "failed" Eva.

Also the Eva ever created after Adam was "regressed" to an embryo.

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I am reading the manga series and it clarifies and sheds more light on what the Evangelion universe is all about.

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The manga shouldn't be used as a reference for the anime, don't forget that the manga is Sadamoto very own vision of Eva, not Anno's one.
It was mentioned by Gainax and Anno since the begining of the manga that things that are true in the manga might not be in the anime and vice-versa, it was also mentioned that the manga might a different ending than the TV/Movie-

Gersen

[AbeChinchilla]

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canaryfarmer said:
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Flameswordsman86 said:

. Ikari's words to Ritsuko?



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I always liked the idea that he said "I never loved you."

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This was funny when I watched it with friends. Apparently the animation and Ritsuko's reaction works whether Ikari tells her that he loves her or... that he DOESN'T love her.

I like the idea of Ikari telling him he did love her, and Ritsuko denying it.

[golthin]

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Flameswordsman86 said:
. Misato and Shinji. Misguided Mother/Guardian, actual feelings for him, or what? [I go the Parental Guardian route myself, still in love with dead ol' Kaji and doing anything to wake Shinji up]



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I am only commenting on this one, she was looking for something more from Shinji, she kind of came on to him once, I think she was shocked that Shinji refused her. The very adult kiss she gave him in the movie can tell you she was not looking at him only as a son. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[canaryfarmer]

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AbeChinchilla said:
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canaryfarmer said:
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Flameswordsman86 said:

. Ikari's words to Ritsuko?



[/ QUOTE ]

I always liked the idea that he said "I never loved you."

[/ QUOTE ]

This was funny when I watched it with friends. Apparently the animation and Ritsuko's reaction works whether Ikari tells her that he loves her or... that he DOESN'T love her.

I like the idea of Ikari telling him he did love her, and Ritsuko denying it.

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Ikari simply always used people to get what he wanted, and I simply can't see him admitting love to Ritsuko. I can see perfectly, however, him letting her know that she meant nothing to him and that he used her just like everyone else. He's a right bastard, that had been established time and time again throughout the series. I can also easily believe that Ritsuko convinced herself that he might have actually had feelings for her (he might have, but he would never admit this).

[golthin]

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canaryfarmer said:
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AbeChinchilla said:
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canaryfarmer said:
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Flameswordsman86 said:

. Ikari's words to Ritsuko?



[/ QUOTE ]

I always liked the idea that he said "I never loved you."

[/ QUOTE ]

This was funny when I watched it with friends. Apparently the animation and Ritsuko's reaction works whether Ikari tells her that he loves her or... that he DOESN'T love her.

I like the idea of Ikari telling him he did love her, and Ritsuko denying it.

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Ikari simply always used people to get what he wanted, and I simply can't see him admitting love to Ritsuko. I can see perfectly, however, him letting her know that she meant nothing to him and that he used her just like everyone else. He's a right bastard, that had been established time and time again throughout the series. I can also easily believe that Ritsuko convinced herself that he might have actually had feelings for her (he might have, but he would never admit this).

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I always hated the fact that the bastard Ikari was doing Ritsuko. It just felt completely wrong /images/graemlins/anger100.gif. I also was mad that Shinji refused Misato /images/graemlins/happy.gif. like father like son.

[Bibulb]

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AbeChinchilla said:
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canaryfarmer said:
I always liked the idea that he said "I never loved you."

[/ QUOTE ]

This was funny when I watched it with friends. Apparently the animation and Ritsuko's reaction works whether Ikari tells her that he loves her or... that he DOESN'T love her.

I like the idea of Ikari telling him he did love her, and Ritsuko denying it.

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That scene is so well executed - Anno is a master of ambiguity.

Although, the number of other ways to take that moment...

"Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is ... <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>that skirt really DOES make your ass look big.</span>"

"Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is ... <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>I'm totally hot for Maya.</span>"

"Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is ... <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>you're not a patch on your mom.</span>"

"Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is ... <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>I'm thirsty. Got some Tang?</span>"

"Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is ... <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>I GOTS WAFFLES IN ME!!</span>"
(<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Gendo was seriously ADHD. Who knew? </span>)


Or, just to get serious again :
"Ritsuko Akagi, the truth is ... <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>you missed your opportunity.</span>"

[pernicious]

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. Why's Shinji strangle Asuka at the end?


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I may be wrong here but I think that the girl at the end isn't exactly Asuka. The girl has Asuka's body, but she is dressed in the bandages that Rei wore at the beginning of the series and her eye colouring matches Misato's.

So I have always strongly believed that she's an amalgamation of Asuka, Rei and Misato. It makes sense in my head since all three are in love with Shinji and Shinji is in love with all three. So when Shinji leaves the instrumentality project, the three girls follow him out and decide to join into one body.

[KK1]

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Pernicious said:
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. Why's Shinji strangle Asuka at the end?


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I may be wrong here but I think that the girl at the end isn't exactly Asuka. The girl has Asuka's body, but she is dressed in the bandages that Rei wore at the beginning of the series and her eye colouring matches Misato's.

So I have always strongly believed that she's an amalgamation of Asuka, Rei and Misato. It makes sense in my head since all three are in love with Shinji and Shinji is in love with all three. So when Shinji leaves the instrumentality project, the three girls follow him out and decide to join into one body.

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Everything I've read says it is Asuka(the arm and eye are in bandages because watch what happens to her during the fight with the evas stabbed in the eye and arm sliced in half), and the reason he chokes her is to make sure she's real and not being shown stuff like he was during instrumentality.