What edits are you willing to tolerate and why or why not (if none?)

[DrMM]

The recent editing discussion has started me thinking about the kind of edits that bother me vs. the kind of edits that I can accept (although that doesn't mean I like them or think they're neccessary).

So, do you tolerate some edits or are all of them unacceptable, no matter the reason.

What kind of edits do I tolerate? I'm willing to tolerate two or three kinds of edits. The changing or removal of the swastika (aka manji) doesn't bother me because I know that it's offensive to Western culture in a way it's not to most Asian cultures. I'm also willing to accept the removal of 'fish lips' to blackfaced characters (like Mr. Popo in DBZ), again due to the cultural differences. I'm not sure it's needed but since it's understandable and won't change the story, it doesn't bother me a whole lot.

I find the most common edit, nudity, to be utterly pointless & stupid and it can be a dealbreaker.

So, how about everyone else?

[meryl]

For myself, I would be bothered by story and dialogue edits. Adding a little extra smoke to Yoruichi so that a mom who picks up a manga when cleaning her son's room won't have a fit? Not worth worrying about, as far as I'm concerned. I can understand why people would be bothered by such changes, but they don't affect my enjoyment of the story, and I buy manga for the story.

[Randycat]

I don't agree with story edits, or art edits (nudity, violence, etc)...also, while it's a good point that Western cultures would be offended by things like big lips and swastikas, I'd prefer they'd put some kind of cultural note at the beginning or end of the manga rather than removing it (though I am willing to tolerate this kind of censorship more than the others). Also, I can't stand when companies remove color pages, I consider this an edit.

[Texhnolyze]

so artwork isn't part of telling the story?

as long as it doesn't alter the story you're willing to accept any artwork changes?

[GodaiStudios]

Hmm... that's a good question. To be honest I'm against censorship. Personally, I think censorship is immoral since it imposes a view upon me rather than letting me think and decide for myself whether or not I'll like the content.

It's one thing to warn me of the content - it's another to take the option away from me. Rating systems are fine. Cultural notes are fine. Censorship is not.

In that respect, I refuse to buy manga that I know has been "changed for our protection" - especially since most of it is nonsensical. That being said, I think art edits and dialogue changes are equally unacceptable in my eyes.

Now if they want sell a censored version and un uncensored version - I have no problems with that. At least then I still have a choice.

[meryl]

For myself, whether artwork changes affected the story would depend on the magnitude of the change. If the meaning/implication of the artwork still exists, then I'm not as bothered. It's pretty clear in that scene of the Viz version of the manga that Yoruichi is naked. The meaning of the image hasn't changed. If the visual was changed to give the reader a different understanding of the scene than the original, then I'd have a problem.

[chloes_fork]

I have a zero tolerance policy for edits. Manga is an art form, and I find it deeply offensive that publishers are so quick to compromise its integrity for chickenshit commercial reasons. I won't knowingly buy an edited title, no matter how much it pains me (I *so* wanted to read Shadow Star). Every dollar companies make on edited manga is a vote in favor of continuing the practice.

As for politically correct "sensitivity" edits, those are equally unacceptable, and would be more appropriately addressed with a simple cultural note.

[Puppet Master]

[ QUOTE ]
chloes_fork said:
I have a zero tolerance policy for edits. Manga is an art form, and I find it deeply offensive that publishers are so quick to compromise its integrity for chickenshit commercial reasons. I won't knowingly buy an edited title, no matter how much it pains me (I *so* wanted to read Shadow Star). Every dollar companies make on edited manga is a vote in favor of continuing the practice.

As for politically correct "sensitivity" edits, those are equally unacceptable, and would be more appropriately addressed with a simple cultural note.

[/ QUOTE ]

I fully agree and couldn't have put it any better myself.

[treatment]

Honestly, I don't really mind edits. Comes with the territory, I guess.

What I do mind is being charged $8-$10+ for an edited manga from b&m bookstores and online stores. That just ain't right.

If TP, VIZ, et al are gonna continue to sell their manga-versions stupidly edited and nerfed, then they better charge no more than $5 for it. Retail _and_ online.

Them and the bookstores wanna treat the manga-customers like kids, then charge kiddie prices for 'em since, well, their manga were kiddified by them already.

[Texhnolyze]

[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
Honestly, I don't really mind edits. Comes with the territory, I guess.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the sad mindset that companies like Viz have installed in people. It's never going to get any better if people just adopt that kind of attitude.

[GodaiStudios]

[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
Honestly, I don't really mind edits. Comes with the territory, I guess.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the sad mindset that companies like Viz have installed in people. It's never going to get any better if people just adopt that kind of attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

And this is the reason why I refuse to give Viz more money as a whole. As long as the people in charge make the decisions that censorship like they've done is perfectly okay, I don't want my money going into their pockets.

To be realistic, I usually have a 3 strikes and you're out kind of policy. I don't expect a company to be perfect. And yes, there are titles I don't care about. And yes, it's hard to get riled up about the edits if you don't care about the title.

That all said, Viz hit strike three with the last installment of Midori Days for me (the prior strikes being I''s and Hikaru no Go - but they keep adding fuel to the fire, so I pretty much figure I'm done with them - I may or may not complete some of the titles I started - it is a difficult decision I'm faced with.)

Tokyopop is on strike two with me (with Initial D and Tsukuyomi) Now if they go back and fix Tsukuyomi - that's one less strike against them.

CMX struck out completely on one title (Ten Ten) with me because their lack of response and treatment of the fans made up the additional two strikes. If they came back finally and said they would release an uncensored version of TenTen - then they'd have a chance at getting my business - and that's something I don't see happening anytime soon.

As far as Del Rey goes... They also now have a strike against them for deliberately censoring the dialogue in Air Gear. I do hope Mr. Middaugh is listening and responds to the complaints. Take a stand and do a reprint of the first volume. Get your company back in the clear, and you'll stand head and shoulders above the rest of the industry.

[treatment]

[ QUOTE ]
Texhnolyze said:
[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
Honestly, I don't really mind edits. Comes with the territory, I guess.


[/ QUOTE ]

That's the sad mindset that companies like Viz have installed in people. It's never going to get any better if people just adopt that kind of attitude.

[/ QUOTE ]

lol!

Try not to make it seem like it's a new phenomenon. That has been, and still is, the mindset and attitude here at least in the States, regardless if it's manga or comics or books or console-games or TV or whatever. Dunno if Ca or Europe shares the same censorship-mentalities, tho.

[Razb]

There's two things I actually don't mind being done to manga: arranged covers and replaced sound effects (and to some extent, signs).

I know that it is necessary to change covers to appeal to different markets. Use of different art, new commissioned art, and graphical rearrangements of existing art is acceptable. However, censorship of existing art is NOT (e.g. Air Gear volume 2). If you're going to do that, use a different piece of art entirely, please. I would like for all companies to replicate the original Japanese covers (and dust jackets) unaltered with color pages inside the manga itself, but I understand this is often not feasible.

As for sound effects, I want to comprehend what is happening in my manga. Untouched but with margin notes or subbed sound effects are preferable, but replacing with similar size and font English translations is acceptable. I know this bugs some people, but I see it as a concession that is sometimes necessary to ensure a readable English version of the manga. There have only been a few instances where I found a manga's sound effects to be so intricately entwined with the art as to make this approach impossible (something like Blame! would be an example of this). In such cases, one of the other two options I listed above should be used.

On a side note, I find my tolerance for TokyoPop's refusal to translate sound effects to have reached ridiculously low levels now that they've begun censoring art instead.

[golthin]

[ QUOTE ]
chloes_fork said:
I have a zero tolerance policy for edits. Manga is an art form, and I find it deeply offensive that publishers are so quick to compromise its integrity for chickenshit commercial reasons. I won't knowingly buy an edited title, no matter how much it pains me (I *so* wanted to read Shadow Star). Every dollar companies make on edited manga is a vote in favor of continuing the practice.

As for politically correct "sensitivity" edits, those are equally unacceptable, and would be more appropriately addressed with a simple cultural note.

[/ QUOTE ]
I feel the same way, besides avoiding edited manga help me save and cut down on what I buy. I put buying Bleach on hold for a while and I am glad I only bought till volume 5, now I can skip bleach all together. I also put off buying Naruto, only bought till Volume 2. Only thing I am buying from Viz right now is Cheeky angel and that is because it is safe that there won't be any edits.

[Pyocola]

Any kind of artwork edit done for censoring/PC purposes and I'm out. That is, unless it was something that was there to begin with, like the pixelated parts in Crying Freeman.

Any major story or dialogue edits and I would drop it as well. I guess I'm not quite as strict as when it comes to art much due to the fact that it can be difficult to discern intentional edits from translation choices.

[Gonfreaks]

I also have zero tolerance for edits. I stopped buying one of my favorite series (Hikago) due to edits, will not buy any further volumes of Bleach, etc. Yes, I get what Viz is doing in most of their shounen titles (censoring the manga to match the anime), but it is still unacceptable.

I will not buy any sort of censored series, and it saddens me to see that censoring is rapidly becoming more frequent. Well, all it means is less money to spend each month on manga, for me.

[barbapapa]

If its small edits I can live with it. Cause honestly, there's no other way to currently get my manga fix. Until a certain edited series gets released in Dutch, I'll gladly sell of my English version in that case.

[Rolancehack]

I think it depends on the edit and reason for it, if there's legal trouble and a series needs to changed for that reason (solid legal trouble like copyright name infringement, like G-Unit/Last Outpost).

Another "edit" I'm fine with is translated names, but not in things like changing "Taro" to "Joe," but "Sumomo" to "Plum," though I do prefer they just leave them alone.

However preventative Edits to series like Air Gear, Ten Ten (poor Oh! Great, the reason he probably goes with these edit is because every series of his that has been released out here has been edited.) Things like editing content to reach a younger audience is absolutely out, like Ten Ten and Air Gear. In the same vein, editing out nipples when their is nudity anyway is also stupid.

Changing editing standards mid run is also bad, like Midori Days. I hate being put in the position of supporting edits or continuing a series I enjoy, it's a horrible position to put a customer into.

I do however follow Godai's policy, of being lenient, I'll allow a couple of mistakes, but some companies are getting out of hand. Like Viz, they have pretty much lost all my trust, which is sad, because most of my title came from them, I'm going to finish up a few series from them that are one or two books from the end of their run, then pull back until they learn to stop changing everything "for the kids."

[UndeadKing]

I've got a zero tolerance toward edits for the most part, be they artwork, dialog or name changes. The only thing that doesn't bother me are cover art changes. As long as the meat of the book is ok, I'm cool with it. I don't care if they only edit out a mustache because "it looks like Hitler!" I will not support censorship for any reason. Bottom line, if you can't or won't release it uncut, don't release it.

[Collectonian]

If I know it has any editing at all, even just removing a swastika or changing lips, or upping the age of a character (which has happened in some yaoi titles), I won't buy it. If I buy a title and find out later it was edited, for the most part I will dump it. The only editted I have kept is one yaoi with an age change but otherwise no edits.

As for why...because I'm an adult and I find it insulting when a company thinks it needs to make things "cleaner" or "better" for me. If I didn't like it, I wouldn't be interested in buying it in the first place, and their changing something like that wouldn't help. Editing will, however, make me not buy something else instead.

[akcoll99]

For the most part, I can handle what I call 'minor' edits, such as the smoke issue in Bleach. I don't like them, but I can stomach them as long as that's the only edits the title receives. I can also handle cover art changes, like the one with Air Gear.
I do have problems with larger edits, such as Tenjho Tenge, where the whole work was changed into a totally different manga by the American publisher.
I also roll my eyes everytime I see nudity/sex/sexuality covered up, but graphic violence left untouched because we have to protect the "young'uns" from that most horrible of all Satanic evils and befouler of men everywhere- the naked woman's breast. /images/graemlins/devil.gif
Seriously, I can understand not wanting kids exposed to nudity and sex, but as an adult, I want the ability to make up my OWN mind as to what is appropriate to read or not read. I hate having the publishers take that freedom out of my hands because they're afraid of upsetting some soccer mom and getting sued.

Edit: spelling

[witega]

[ QUOTE ]
treatment said:
Try not to make it seem like it's a new phenomenon. That has been, and still is, the mindset and attitude here at least in the States, regardless if it's manga or comics or books or console-games or TV or whatever. Dunno if Ca or Europe shares the same censorship-mentalities, tho.

[/ QUOTE ]

Uh, there has not been an issue with editing books in decades. This is a battle that authors and publishers, standing on the 1st Amendment, won a long time ago. If you go to the regular fiction shelves of any bookstore, anything goes. The problem seems to be that despite all the initial hype about the difference between manga and American comics, manga is being pigeon-holed in the same way as something 'for kids' rather than as real books. And as such a whole different set of rules is applied.

Coming from a background as a big reader of such 'real' books, I do not consider any edits acceptable. For visual edits, that's, period, full stop. For dialogue/text I'm more flexible simply because English and Japanese are such different languages that widely variant translations/adaptions are often equally defensible.

I don't consider cover art changes or translation/overlay of sfx to be 'edits' in this sense--the first is part of Marketing, separate from the work itself (the companion to 'don't judge a book by its cover') and the second is a translation choice.

But the fact is that, like Skywise, between visual edits and just too many questionable translations, I have given up on English manga. I am finishing up the series I already started (unless, like Midori's Days or Tsukuyomi the company suddenly starts editing), but I haven't started any new series in months. My Japanese has gotten to the point that while its certainly easier to read a translation, I can read many series and if I keep studying I'll eventually get to the rest. Thankfully I have that option.

[christianlf]

[ QUOTE ]
chloes_fork said:
I have a zero tolerance policy for edits. Manga is an art form, and I find it deeply offensive that publishers are so quick to compromise its integrity for chickenshit commercial reasons. I won't knowingly buy an edited title, no matter how much it pains me (I *so* wanted to read Shadow Star). Every dollar companies make on edited manga is a vote in favor of continuing the practice.

As for politically correct "sensitivity" edits, those are equally unacceptable, and would be more appropriately addressed with a simple cultural note.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't feel like writing a near identical post, so: hear, hear.

But at this point, I'm just conceding that it's hopeless. I really really wanted to support the American manga industy, but I am so so tired of these companies thinking for me (not to mention pissing my money away on manga releases that get edited well into their runs). So, American manga publishers, in your pursuit of the almighty $ and whatever you're perceiving is the mainstream morality these days, you've left me (and my $) far far behind. Hopefully for y'all, your greed and cowardice will pay off in the end. I wouldn't worry...when even the "hardcore" segment of fandom (the kind that cares enough to join a forum about it) can't all agree to not support it, there really isn't much hope of any real change.

The day when any major company has the balls to come out and guarantee they'll *never* edit anything they release is the day I'll start supporting the English-language market again.

[Oniko]

[ QUOTE ]
chloes_fork said:
I have a zero tolerance policy for edits. Manga is an art form, and I find it deeply offensive that publishers are so quick to compromise its integrity for chickenshit commercial reasons. I won't knowingly buy an edited title, no matter how much it pains me (I *so* wanted to read Shadow Star). Every dollar companies make on edited manga is a vote in favor of continuing the practice.

As for politically correct "sensitivity" edits, those are equally unacceptable, and would be more appropriately addressed with a simple cultural note.

[/ QUOTE ]

You have eloquently stated exactly what my own beliefs regarding censorship are. I will not tolerate it and will not support it no matter if it's to make it sell to a wider audience, appease the easily offended PC fanatics, or protect a company's buttocks from their fear of litigation. Do any of the US manga companies even remember what almost killed the US comic book industry? Because they are certainly sacrificing virgin manga to reserect Frederic Wertham's ghost.

Any extra money I had planned to dedicate to US released manga is going to the JP versions from now on. The only US released series I will continue to collect are Berserk, Basilisk, and Trigun. I have had it. /images/graemlins/sad.gif

[meryl]

I'm just waiting for Katie Couric to discover manga and have one of her "won't somebody think of the children" fits of sentimentality.

I can understand the position you hardliners are taking, but I don't think you'd succeed in changing the positions of publishers like Viz the way that a gang of soccer moms could. I'm not a mom, though I'm old enough and female enough to be one. I am a teacher, however, and I deal with people who make moral judgments about the appropriateness of what kids and adults read. I don't like it, but I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that those sorts of people have a lot of power in our society, certainly enough power to influence corporate decisions.

[jlazar]

[ QUOTE ]
meryl said:
I'm just waiting for Katie Couric to discover manga and have one of her "won't somebody think of the children" fits of sentimentality.

I can understand the position you hardliners are taking, but I don't think you'd succeed in changing the positions of publishers like Viz the way that a gang of soccer moms could. I'm not a mom, though I'm old enough and female enough to be one. I am a teacher, however, and I deal with people who make moral judgments about the appropriateness of what kids and adults read. I don't like it, but I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that those sorts of people have a lot of power in our society, certainly enough power to influence corporate decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, but by trying to appease such people with these edits, you're just giving them more power. Because they won't stop at nipples, nudity, smoking, or whatever, they'll keep nitpicking and nitpicking until manga is just as dull and generic as much of the US comics industry. And there won't be a manga market at that point any longer.

In the end, it wouldn't take much to set these groups off, reguardless of how much the US manga producers censor. The misrating of Tsukuyomi Moon Phase vol 4 even with the edits could easily cause an uproar, primarily based on the intent of selling that too kids by sneaking it past the booksellers and parents with the removal of the most obvious 'offensive content' (nipples tend to stick out, after all), but still leave all the other 'offensive content' that is way more inappropriate for 13 year olds than any nipple could ever be (most 13 year olds have seen nipples, since most of them have two of them).

And it's not like you have to agree with these groups to use them to cause a backlash that would pretty much kill the elusive profit the US manga companies are chasing by making these edits.

My biggest concern is there won't be ANY market for manga after the blow up that will come if they continue trying to sell to people who can't understand the concept of 'comics' being for more than just kids.

[GodaiStudios]

[ QUOTE ]
meryl said:
I'm just waiting for Katie Couric to discover manga and have one of her "won't somebody think of the children" fits of sentimentality.

I can understand the position you hardliners are taking, but I don't think you'd succeed in changing the positions of publishers like Viz the way that a gang of soccer moms could. I'm not a mom, though I'm old enough and female enough to be one. I am a teacher, however, and I deal with people who make moral judgments about the appropriateness of what kids and adults read. I don't like it, but I'm pragmatic enough to recognize that those sorts of people have a lot of power in our society, certainly enough power to influence corporate decisions.

[/ QUOTE ]

That being stated, since you do deal with people who make those moral judgements, etc., shouldn't you be telling companies like Viz that some of the edits that they do are nonsensical since it doesn't make the graphic content less offensive just by remvoing nipples?

If they (the soccer moms) really hold enough power to influence coroporate decisions, why don't we hear more about "grassroot" movements by these soccer moms to affect the decisions that are made when it comes to manga? It's one thing for companies like Viz to start censoring because of pressures by a group, it's another to censor where it the edits don't make sense and there is no obvious motive to do so.

[DrMM]

[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
If they (the soccer moms) really hold enough power to influence coroporate decisions, why don't we hear more about "grassroot" movements by these soccer moms to affect the decisions that are made when it comes to manga? It's one thing for companies like Viz to start censoring because of pressures by a group, it's another to censor where it the edits don't make sense and there is no obvious motive to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to remember a bit of a movement a few years ago that involved several parents at a school complaining about Scholastic selling Shonen Jump since it contained smoking and swastikas. The end result was that Scholastic no longer planned on selling Jump at book fairs. Honestly, I think that's when I remember hearing about a lot of the jump edits starting.

So, there have been movements. No widespread ones yet but all it would take is one person.

[GodaiStudios]

[ QUOTE ]
DrMM said:
[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
If they (the soccer moms) really hold enough power to influence coroporate decisions, why don't we hear more about "grassroot" movements by these soccer moms to affect the decisions that are made when it comes to manga? It's one thing for companies like Viz to start censoring because of pressures by a group, it's another to censor where it the edits don't make sense and there is no obvious motive to do so.

[/ QUOTE ]

I seem to remember a bit of a movement a few years ago that involved several parents at a school complaining about Scholastic selling Shonen Jump since it contained smoking and swastikas. The end result was that Scholastic no longer planned on selling Jump at book fairs. Honestly, I think that's when I remember hearing about a lot of the jump edits starting.

So, there have been movements. No widespread ones yet but all it would take is one person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unless I'm mistaken, edits happened with them before that, but I could be wrong.

Honestly, I'd almost rather a larger scale rukus were to come about to force Viz (and the like) to appropriately rate their manga. As a result, titles like I''s - instead of censored - would be marketed to the appropriate audience and shrinkwrapped like Negima (which has proven successful)

Then again, the flip side could mean fewer titles being licensed due to the fear of lowered sales overall.

[DrMM]

[ QUOTE ]
GodaiStudios said:
Honestly, I'd almost rather a larger scale rukus were to come about to force Viz (and the like) to appropriately rate their manga. As a result, titles like I''s - instead of censored - would be marketed to the appropriate audience and shrinkwrapped like Negima (which has proven successful)


[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. While I suppose horrible, horrible things could happen if a movement started, the opposite could happen as well. The rating of music doesn't seem to have hampered artistic freedom, so if there's an industry standard set then edits might decrease (I doubt they'll ever go away completely).

[Rolancehack]

[ QUOTE ]
Jim Lazar said:
My biggest concern is there won't be ANY market for manga after the blow up that will come if they continue trying to sell to people who can't understand the concept of 'comics' being for more than just kids.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is concerning me as well, we keep hearing about editing things based on reports of not offending a certain group (and risking lawsuits), yet once the eye falls off the "manga fad" and it once again returns to other topics, and the companies have driven off the actual consumers, who's going to be left to support them, especially in a market that's still considered niche?

I've noticed alot of companies are dropping these edits to appease the "now" fans, and not thinking of the long termers, Viz and the like are basically building a sand castle to live in.

[pianocello]

I do not tolerate edits for nudity. Enough said.

[RaeS]

The only content-based changes I tolerate are regarding actual legal trademark/intellectual copyright issues. Because it's not the publishers fault if they can't use a name or show a product that the Japanese could.

I also give a lot of leeway to title and packaging changes. The outward presentation a book had in Japan doesn't mean it will be beneficial here. However, in cases like Air Gear where the cover isn't acceptable I would prefer they just use a different cover image if possible.

Sfx to me are generally important piece like any other part. So fully replacing them in English is a neutral issue IMO. The English adaptation also has a large amount of room with me since translation is somewhat personal and must take into account more than just a series of words.

Omake and bonus material is always nice when included. But as long as it isn't a content-based issue I'm still happy.

It isn't that I don't understand many of the reasons and thinking behind several instances of censorship. Money, audience, and lawsuits are all valid concerns unfortunately.

But I can't buy something censored or missing actual story pages even if I do understand. Censoring just tells me it never should have been published in the way it was or here at all. I guess because it’s not my choice and it’s not quite the author’s work.

[Shsway]

Art, story and names must remain intact for me to consider a purchase. If I am made aware of any alternations of these in time, I avoid the series specific to these alternations. Alternative cover art doesn't bother me, especially when most of it IS alternative in R1, right?

[joelgundam01]

It really depends on the edit and how many of them. I personally don't mind an edit or two, as long as it doesn't harm the plot/story in anyway.

For example, the edit in Claymore vols 2 and 3 (<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Yoma Mummy's penis was removed</span>) was pretty harmless in my opinion.

[DrMM]

[ QUOTE ]
chloes_fork said:
As for politically correct "sensitivity" edits, those are equally unacceptable, and would be more appropriately addressed with a simple cultural note.

[/ QUOTE ]

For the people against the 'politically correct' edits, there's something I was wondering about.

How many manga readers do you think actually read the included cultural notes when they exist? A cultural note to explain what a manji is and/or the history of the blackface character in manga would take far more than a simple *(short note here) that most people would read. Do you really think that most people who read manga (especially the kids/teenagers) actually read the long cultural notes that we find at the back of the book in most Del Ray manga? While some of them do, I'm sure there are more that don't.

That said, how much do you think the readers perception of a character will change if the manga is left unedited but the reader doesn't read/understand the cultural context?

For example, if the manji (swastika) was left unedited on Neji in Naruto, how differently would the readers perceive his character if they thought he was a white supremacist? And if the reader perceives a character differently than they might otherwise, wouldn't that impact the story?

Just a thought. It's part of the reason why I don't mind those edits at all, since I'm sure most readers wouldn't understand the context ('most' wouldn't include AoD readers).

[Noodle]

[ QUOTE ]
DrMM said:
How many manga readers do you think actually read the included cultural notes when they exist? A cultural note to explain what a manji is and/or the history of the blackface character in manga would take far more than a simple *(short note here) that most people would read. Do you really think that most people who read manga (especially the kids/teenagers) actually read the long cultural notes that we find at the back of the book in most Del Ray manga? While some of them do, I'm sure there are more that don't.
----
For example, if the manji (swastika) was left unedited on Neji in Naruto, how differently would the readers perceive his character if they thought he was a white supremacist? And if the reader perceives a character differently than they might otherwise, wouldn't that impact the story?

[/ QUOTE ]

I really don't think you're giving readers enough credit. Especially younger readers who soak up this stuff, especially given the way manga (and everything japanese) is cool right now. I'd bet lots of readers also read the cultural notes too (they needn't actually be all that long), for the same reason. Heck, Shonen Jump could do one of their one-page features in the mag on "interesting cultural facts from Naruto!" .. they've done it in the past for terminology, etc. I really don't think it would be nearly the issue you're envisioning it to be.

[chloes_fork]

[ QUOTE ]
DrMM said:
Do you really think that most people who read manga (especially the kids/teenagers) actually read the long cultural notes that we find at the back of the book in most Del Ray manga? While some of them do, I'm sure there are more that don't.

That said, how much do you think the readers perception of a character will change if the manga is left unedited but the reader doesn't read/understand the cultural context?

[/ QUOTE ]
Honestly, I'd have to say that's the reader's problem. If the relevant information's been provided, it's nobody's fault but the reader's if they choose to ignore it. And in any case, I think it's a disservice to those readers, and an insult to their intelligence, to preemptively dumb down and compromise a manga's content on the assumption that they can't or won't read and understand a few explanatory lines of text.

[ConanSan]

I am willing to accept Sound effect editing and that's just about it. Though if an edit for REALY contrifversal stuff is painfuly needed, like Neji's seal- Hell will freze over well before the Manji is ever accepted completely.
I assume "YuYu Hakushou" got away with it because a)it was only for about 3 episdoes/2 issues and b) the dood KO'd himself in a fit of overcockyness- then I'm fine with that

I stoped buying JoJo's Bizzare adventure because they turned "Yare Yare dasei"(?) into a cuss for the sake of it, the thee arc skip I could understand (What with the 4chaning and the Capcoming and so on) but turning a phrase which is the equivant of "Shut up, your geting on my nerves" into a cuss is beyond the pale.

[HitokiriShadow]

I am willing to accept minimal and reasonable edits if its a series that really can't be reasonably raised to a higher rating (like Naruto and Bleach). Minor nudity edits that are well done are irritating, but not a killer if its in a series aimed at a younger audience and cannot simply be knocked up to a higher age rating. The Yoroichi edit in Bleach is stupid and irritating but it doesn't effect much and its not common. The Kamikaze edit makes less sense, but isn't a killer either as it was insignificant. I"s is pushing it and I wouldn't have gotten it if I hadn't heard good things about it.

The swastika/manji thing is irritating, but not entirely unreasonable. However, I think it would be better if there was a note in the book briefly explaining the manji instead.

I will NOT accept massive editing to make an adult title "acceptable" for a younger audience (like TenTen. I will NOT accept turning guns into squirtguns (which apparently happened in a volume of DBZ).

[fujishig]

Hmm... I agree with you that censorship is bad, and that manga is an artform... but I wonder how many are angered when a Japanese editor (with the consent and help of the mangaka, of course) influences the story before it's published? Or, as in the case of Dragonball, a story goes longer than the author originally intended because it was popular? I don't want to equate this with censorship, but we'd be fooling ourselves if we believed manga was just an unfiltered product of what the author originally intended. Most of it is for mass-market consumption, after all.

As for my personal stance on editing... I can see the reason for editing anything that could get a publisher in legal trouble (copyright, offensive symbols, underage nudity, etc.)... this is why Japanese adult manga is censored in Japan, after all. I may not agree with it, and I may not buy the work in question, but I can see why such decisions are made.

On the subject of covers... anyone know why they change covers? Is it because the original cover prints aren't available? Because otherwise, isn't it a lot more trouble to get different artwork for the cover (since you have to make sure it's in color, etc.)? I picked up R.O.D. volume 3 the other day, and the author was having a discussion in the back about how the original cover was an homage of Dr. Slump... but the domestic cover was different.

[GodaiStudios]

[ QUOTE ]
Fujishig said:As for my personal stance on editing... I can see the reason for editing anything that could get a publisher in legal trouble (copyright, offensive symbols, underage nudity, etc.)... this is why Japanese adult manga is censored in Japan, after all. I may not agree with it, and I may not buy the work in question, but I can see why such decisions are made.

[/ QUOTE ]

Except I haven't seen evidence of attacks on manga due to these issues. That's the part I don't get. For several years now, those things that could get a publisher "in trouble" have been, and continue to be, published - especially the underage nudity. I can't help but think that if there were going to be a problem with it, it would have happened by now.

And let's face it - many of the nonsensical edits done are ones that would a parent would still complain about - removing nipples out of a sex scene doesn't stop it from being a sex scene - or change the fact that nudity is clearly involved. So it's not only pointless - but it's stupid as well.

[aquapermanence]

[ QUOTE ]
DrMM said:
How many manga readers do you think actually read the included cultural notes when they exist?

[/ QUOTE ]

How many prose readers take the time to read every foreword and afterword? Sometimes all it takes is a few choice sentences to explain or contextualize what might have otherwise been difficult subject matter--but either way it's the reader's responsibility to deal with any subject matter they encounter in the text inside their own head. That's the implied agreement between a writer and a voluntary reader that allows for freedom of expression in the first place.

Since a swastika is not inherently offensive, but rather only takes on offensive connotations because of its adoption by the Nazi party, I propose that instead of swastikas being edited out of manga, they be edited out of all historical film and documentary pieces in which they are shown being used by Nazis. It would be just as arbitrary and nonsensical a decision, but it would attract more public attention and thus have a greater chance of being reversed by the appeals of those consumers concerned with the preservation of history.

But in all seriousness, I tolerate no edits of any kind that change the meaning, intent, or pictoral content of the original work. I don't buy manga often, but when I do I want to be assured that what I'm getting is a book that is as close as possible in presentation to what the original intended audience was able to read.

Frankly, I don't care how much the manga publishers boo-hoo about the pressures they're under from bookstores, parent groups, or the competition. In my not so humble opinion the only thing they should concern themselves with is collecting my authentic cash money in exchange for authentic translated comic books.

[chloes_fork]

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aquapermanence said:
Frankly, I don't care how much the manga publishers boo-hoo about the pressures they're under from bookstores, parent groups, or the competition. In my not so humble opinion the only thing they should concern themselves with is collecting my authentic cash money in exchange for authentic translated comic books.

[/ QUOTE ]
Well said, well spoken. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[witega]

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Fujishig said:
I don't want to equate this with censorship, but we'd be fooling ourselves if we believed manga was just an unfiltered product of what the author originally intended. Most of it is for mass-market consumption, after all.

[/ QUOTE ]

There is no such thing as 'the unfiltered product of what the author originally intended'. Art is not 'original intention.' Anyone can (and most people do) have at least one creative idea. What turns an idea into actual art, and what people pay artists for, is the extensive work which goes into getting from the original intention to a finished product.

And during that work, a multitude of factors can and do come into play to alter the work. Just some examples are:
--physical (e.g., the shade of blue in the artist's head is not chemically reproducible).
--legal (Japanese censorship laws, for a period of Shakespeare's career it was illegal to mention God, Christ, etc on stage)
--social (while getting ready for bed, author mentions to his wife what he's planning for the next scene. she responds, well that sounds kind of stupid; or at another extreme, many artists have commented how the impact of 9/11 caused them to alter the direction of in process works)
--financial (I originally thought 'x' but it will sell better if I do 'y'. And I really need the money)

However, there is a qualitative difference between such influences during the process and post-facto alterations. If Akamatsu knows going in that he can't show nipples, then he will come up with his compositions based on that--he may choose the 'barbie' look, he may get clever with strategically placed objects or angles, he might even choose to just not do any fan service in that specific scene (okay, for Akamatsu, I realize that's a purely theoretical statement). But whatever he does to account for the editorial policy/input he is aware of, is his choice and is part of the creative process.

But when Viz, for example, puts stars on Iori in I's they are marking up an actual finished piece of art. And this is generally true even if they get the original artist to do the marking up. If Katsura had known going in that he couldn't show nipples he might have altered the composition of the picture appropriately, or simply re-written the entire narrative (since the point of the original is that someone had photo-shopped Iori's head onto a porn picture; why would anyone bother to use a censored picture for this when pictures with fully naked breasts are readily available in Japan).