KOR - Love is Power (Discussion thread 5)

[Njr Scrawl]

As Thread #4 (http://forums.animeondvd.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=generalanimeforum&Number=1 431019&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=&fpart=1) has reached 200, this is its successor.

Hopefully Chris & the mods will keep #4 open though, to let finish discussion of the OVAs as only 1 is left (I Was a Cat, I Was a Fish).
Any discussion of TV, OVAs & manga is welcome in #5. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

So this thread will mainly be for discussion of the 2 movies "I Want To Return To That Day" (Animeigo, movie 1) and "Summer's Beginning" (ADV, movie 2, aka Shin KOR).
Please, no Hikaru-bashing. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Love is Power is the funky dance song in movie 2. (Lyrics here.) (http://www.animelyrics.com/anime/kor/loveispower.htm)

[Steve_the_Talking_Pie]

Is the second movie, released by ADV going OOP?

[Tomcat]

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Amasawa said:
Remembering Madoka's invitation to Hikaru to drink until dawn at the tennis camp, I suspect that staying all night may not have meant sex.

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I think that spending the night with Madoka would be more like an extended version of the twosome time that they already share. I'd be surprised if they didn't already spend almost the whole night with each other before. Madoka's acceptance may not have been anything out of the ordinary. Like going to a bar and karaoke, and maybe watching a sunrise later. I get the feeling that this would not be out of line for the present state of their relationship. Seems I remember friends doing this in other anime series, with no sexual overtone.

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- Is this the first time Kyosuke has used Power to teleport another person (ie not just teleport himself)?


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He has talked about doing it several times in the TV series, but had run out of power, or wasn't ready to reveal his powers. The bridge with Hikaru in the mushroom episode is one. Komatsu's sukeban movie is another -- again hanging and about to fall with Hikaru. I think he mentions something about it in the gondola at the ski resort.

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In the sukeban movie episode, did he just slow down their fall, or actually teleported himself and Hikaru closer to the ground after they fell? My memory seems to indicate that he teleported Hikaru in the end, but she was so scared that she didn't realize it.

-TC

[Amasawa]

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Tomcat said:
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Amasawa said:
Remembering Madoka's invitation to Hikaru to drink until dawn at the tennis camp, I suspect that staying all night may not have meant sex.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that spending the night with Madoka would be more like an extended version of the twosome time that they already share. I'd be surprised if they didn't already spend almost the whole night with each other before. Madoka's acceptance may not have been anything out of the ordinary. Like going to a bar and karaoke, and maybe watching a sunrise later. I get the feeling that this would not be out of line for the present state of their relationship. Seems I remember friends doing this in other anime series, with no sexual overtone.


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Yes, there is also the time Hikaru spent the night sitting on Kyosuke's bed, talking and drinking coffee. Contrary to a Kurumi created rumor, they didn't go to "C".

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[ QUOTE ]

- Is this the first time Kyosuke has used Power to teleport another person (ie not just teleport himself)?


[/ QUOTE ]
He has talked about doing it several times in the TV series, but had run out of power, or wasn't ready to reveal his powers. The bridge with Hikaru in the mushroom episode is one. Komatsu's sukeban movie is another -- again hanging and about to fall with Hikaru. I think he mentions something about it in the gondola at the ski resort.

[/ QUOTE ]
In the sukeban movie episode, did he just slow down their fall, or actually teleported himself and Hikaru closer to the ground after they fell? My memory seems to indicate that he teleported Hikaru in the end, but she was so scared that she didn't realize it.

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They both vanished momentarily, so it was a teleportation. It isn't explained why Kyosuke didn't just slow them down as he did with 10 year old Madoka, or for his decisive self falling after trying to get the badminton birdie out of the tree.

[Amasawa]

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Wrath of the Njr said:
So this thread will mainly be for discussion of the 2 movies "I Want To Return To That Day" (Animeigo, movie 1) and "Summer's Beginning" (ADV, movie 2, aka Shin KOR).


[/ QUOTE ]
I'll post a message to start I was a Cat, I was a Fish tonight.

Shall we then go straight into Movie 1, or pause awhile?

[Amasawa]

I can't recall the reference, but I think I read somewhere that plots ending where they began are a favorite in Japanese folktales.

Jingoro-the-cat jumping in vain at the goldfish bowl is echoed later by Kyosuke-the-cat jumping in vain at the water heater. He could have saved himself a lot of trouble, and been kissed sooner, if he had just jumped on Madoka.

Demon Kurumi proves to be Kyosuke's bane once again, and no one seems to get mad at her for all the trouble she causes. Definitely a spoiled child. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

This story sets up lots of situations that seem symbolic of major themes in the seires: Hikaru and Madoka trying to catch Kyosuke-the-goldfish, Kyosuke-the-cat having to choose between Hikaru and Madoka, Madoka having to decide whether to give the goldfish to Hikaru. However, I think they are all a tease to keep the viewer in doubt about the series outcome.

Oddly enough, Hikaru recognizes Kyosuke in all his forms, while Madoka does not. If this were Spirited Away, Hikaru would be the one to end up with Kyosuke.

Jingoro definitely has the family Power if he can sniff out a particular goldfish from across town.

If Kyosuke's famaily had more faith in him, he would have gotten a kiss from Madoka, and probably been able to shower with her. Did they think Kyosuke in cat form would not be able to find his way home?

[Bumble]

There are some very funny scenes in this episode (the very first one I saw, thanks to the alternate Animego/MVM order), coupled with some nice higher budgeted animation like most of the other OVAs.

The scenes of Kyosuke as a fish are quite good at highlighting how indecisive he is - in any occasion! It was a nice touch that Madoka and Hikaru were both reminded of Kyosuke, given how he as a fish didn't know which way to turn. Of course, he certainly knew which way to jump, and with no hesitation at all I might add. His dazed expression afterwards is priceless! /images/graemlins/happy.gif

(Actually, there's a nice cel from this scene on eBay stores at the moment.)

The scenes with Kyosuke as a cat also have a lot to recommend about them, including a sequence that sums up the entire triangle relationship. Also interesting to note that there's yet more drinking going on, this time really getting close to both Madoka and Hikaru's true feelings. But it just has to be mentioned that there are some...unforgettable scenes with Madoka 'playing cat' to a stunned Kyosuke as well! /images/graemlins/happy.gif

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Amasawa said:
This story sets up lots of situations that seem symbolic of major themes in the seires: Hikaru and Madoka trying to catch Kyosuke-the-goldfish, Kyosuke-the-cat having to choose between Hikaru and Madoka, Madoka having to decide whether to give the goldfish to Hikaru. However, I think they are all a tease to keep the viewer in doubt about the series outcome.

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Yep, that's definitely very symbolic of almost the entirety of Kyosuke's relationships with both Hikaru and Madoka. In many ways, it's almost a condensed version of their entire relationship up to <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Movie 1</span>. First we have both Madoka and Hikaru interested in fish-Kyosuke, with Hikaru winning him over from Madoka, over her objections. Then, more tellingly, we have the tipsy Hikaru and Madoka arguing over who gets cat-Kyosuke, with Madoka playing on Hikaru's feelings to 'steal' the cat away from Hikaru!

[Njr Scrawl]

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Amasawa said:
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Wrath of the Njr said:
So this thread will mainly be for discussion of the 2 movies "I Want To Return To That Day" (Animeigo, movie 1) and "Summer's Beginning" (ADV, movie 2, aka Shin KOR).


[/ QUOTE ]
I'll post a message to start I was a Cat, I was a Fish tonight.

Shall we then go straight into Movie 1, or pause awhile?

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends how many times you want to watch it first! I saw it twice (&amp; movie 2 thrice).

This is Plaid Wolf's post from the last thread, for completeness.

"Very comical episode with Kyosuke obviosuly tired of his homework and wishing life was simpler....while once again, Kurumi sets a series of events in motion that could really mess up Kyoske with Madoka and Hikaru...

"I guess the first lesson is "Be careful what you wish for...you just might get it!" Kyoske discovers that fish and cats DO have their worries.....although i think the sequence where after he breaks Hiraku's net, Madoka scoops him up and he lands right in her cleavage...one kinda wonders at the real emotion his facial response was showing to what happened...(a little peek of his idea of heaven, maybe? Or simply stunned at the turn of events)

"Once again, a little minor event showing Madoka, and not Hikaru, is his fated partner....

"In a strange way, Kurumi kinda got what she deserved when they finally returned Kyoske to his real body and he found himself kissing her and not Madoka!

My only other comment: Shame on you, Grampa, for allowing something so dangerous into irresponsible Kurumi's hands (Nanami would have been more responsible with it, i think...afterall, after looking at the food, her first comment was that she could make a nice dinner from all the stuff!"

[Njr Scrawl]

This one has all the ingredients of a classically good TV episode. Animation quality is good. Madoka has a slightly more Matsumoto face, rounder eyes a bit closer together, also taller &amp; bustier.

The Kasuga's goldfish is cuter than (Finding) Nemo /images/graemlins/happy.gif This episode could literally be called "Finding Kyosuke" /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

Manami &amp; Kurumi must have used their powers to scoop up the goldfish so well. If Madoka could only catch one. Their powers here are also used to teleport out of Hikaru's house. First time for the twins.

Hikaru's room full of Kyosuke posters shows how obsessed she is with him. Her wanting anything, including goldfish &amp; cats that look like him is on the surface cute, but disturbing in her fixation. How did this hard headed child with a sadistic side get to be so screwy?

Madoka gave way on the goldfish, but played right to keep Jingoro using Hikaru's own tactics back at her IMO. She didn't say it, but the resemblance to Kyosuke could have attracted her too. Why she is soft for Kazuya as well probably. Kyosuke has a moé effect on both girls!

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The scenes with Kyosuke as a cat also have a lot to recommend about them, including a sequence that sums up the entire triangle relationship.

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Hikaru &amp; Madoka each trying to seduce Jingoro to choose one of them. Hikaru wins on words, but Madoka on body! Then Madoka tries to seduce Jingoro into the shower when Hikaru has gone. Meeeeooowww! What did Kyosuke think? Are women usually that uninhibited when on their own? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

This is the 2nd time Kyosuke has seen Madoka naked, when he is in another's body - 1st was the Valentine episode when he swopped with Kazuya IIRC.

Madoka seems softer &amp; more vulnerable in this story. In the TV series she would have considered going to Kyosuke's house to take him a gift, or rung him up. Definitely not get upset because he was unable to go to the fair.

Grandpa Kasuga's incantation <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>for the family calling Kyosuke's soul is similar to what he uses to help call back the present day Kyosuke (22) in movie 2.</span>

[Isuzu Inugami]

Ack! Cut off by abrupt thread closure!

Anyway....

Akane, Akane, Akane, why did we have to have Kazuya in the TV series instead of you?

Akane is so cute at the start as she dreamily watches Madoka. Madoka doesn't really seem to get it, although supposedly she has a lot of experience dealing with "those types of girls."

Akane gets embarassed when her friends tease her over still liking girls. Is this just the "kohai/senpai" thing after all, or is Akane genuinely yuri? Her friends seem to imply she's a bit too old to still be in the "kohai/senpai" phase, and I know how I prefer to interpret it.... /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif (In gaming terms, I have an elemental weakness to lesbians. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif)

Akane is downright brutal to Hikaru. What's up with that? She actually could have truthfully explained the situation to Hikaru--there was no need for that slapdown. Did she just panic? Or was she deliberately trying to damage Kyo's relationship with Hikaru?

Hikaru is about as devastated as I've ever seen her. Madoka... is calm about it all. She thinks she knows Kyo well enough to know he is incapable of being so cruel, mabye... so there must be more to the story. Or...? She calms Hikaru, but when she turns away she looks quite angry.

Akane gets herself good and drunk to get up the courage to show off a hot relationship with Kyo. Isn't she still a high school student? Raiding her parents liquor cabinet, I guess. Kyo is about the only one who wasn't tipsy. Was Akane really planning to drag him to the bedroom from the start, or was she going to nerve herself up to give him a hot kiss, and just got carried away? Or figured out she didn't have to do anything if she went in the bedroom?

I think Kyo wouldn't have tried anything with her, but he admits if there was any doubt, Madoka's picture on the ceiling kept him on the straight &amp; narrow. I confess I laughed out loud at the revelation of the picture.

In a somewhat predictable O Henry twist, it turns out nobody had a boyfriend. But should Akane really be promising to get a boyfriend with her two classmates? For a moment it looked like they were about to be matched up with Hatta and Komatsu (shudder!)


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phillip said:

An interesting point about this story is that in the Manga it wasn't Akane with a Big Sister Complex about Madoka, but a younger girl who had the complex about Akane.

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How did the manga storyline go?

[Amasawa]

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Shimauma said:
Akane is so cute at the start as she dreamily watches Madoka. Madoka doesn't really seem to get it, although supposedly she has a lot of experience dealing with "those types of girls."


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I thought Madoka "got it" but wasn't that bothered. She did call Akane, "hen" as in "hentai" I assume.

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Akane gets embarassed when her friends tease her over still liking girls. Is this just the "kohai/senpai" thing after all, or is Akane genuinely yuri? Her friends seem to imply she's a bit too old to still be in the "kohai/senpai" phase, and I know how I prefer to interpret it.... /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif (In gaming terms, I have an elemental weakness to lesbians. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif)


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Akane is definitely yuri. She is the same age as Madoka, so it isn't a "kohai/senpai" relationship. The poster over Akane's bed says "yuri" to me. Also there is Kyosuke's comment about Akane not being interested in boys...

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Akane is downright brutal to Hikaru. What's up with that? She actually could have truthfully explained the situation to Hikaru--there was no need for that slapdown. Did she just panic? Or was she deliberately trying to damage Kyo's relationship with Hikaru?


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I think it was intentionally <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>a condensed version of what Kyosuke says to her in Moive 1.</span> It is quite a contrast to Akane's support for Hikaru in the Hurricane! episode.

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Hikaru is about as devastated as I've ever seen her. Madoka... is calm about it all. She thinks she knows Kyo well enough to know he is incapable of being so cruel, mabye... so there must be more to the story. Or...? She calms Hikaru, but when she turns away she looks quite angry.


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Perhaps Madoka wouldn't be that unhappy if Kyosuke really had dumped Hikaru. I think you are seeing Madoka's ambivalence as well as her normal cool-headedness.

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Akane gets herself good and drunk to get up the courage to show off a hot relationship with Kyo. Isn't she still a high school student? Raiding her parents liquor cabinet, I guess. Kyo is about the only one who wasn't tipsy. Was Akane really planning to drag him to the bedroom from the start, or was she going to nerve herself up to give him a hot kiss, and just got carried away? Or figured out she didn't have to do anything if she went in the bedroom?


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I'm not quite sure why she needed the booze. Perhaps to help her put on the act convincingly. I think she intended a fake bedroom scene from the time of the juice sharing failure.

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I think Kyo wouldn't have tried anything with her, but he admits if there was any doubt, Madoka's picture on the ceiling kept him on the straight &amp; narrow. I confess I laughed out loud at the revelation of the picture.


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I thought Kyosuke's comment, about the poster preventing him from going for it, was out of character. There is no way he would do anything with Akane. Perhaps AnimEigo got the subtleties of the translantion a little off. I could see Kyosuke saying something to the effect of, "If I had wanted to do something, the poster would have made it too scary."

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In a somewhat predictable O Henry twist, it turns out nobody had a boyfriend. But should Akane really be promising to get a boyfriend with her two classmates? For a moment it looked like they were about to be matched up with Hatta and Komatsu (shudder!)


[/ QUOTE ]
That was an odd promise. How would it work? One gets a boyfriend, but turns him down because the other girls don't have one yet? I don't think so. I think they knew they weren't getting boyfriends anytime soon, and it was just a mutual support thing.

There is no way Komatsu and Hatta would get anywhere with those girls. Those guys are far to crass to make any progress with romantic girls like that.

[Amasawa]

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From Plaid Wolf's post from the last thread:

"In a strange way, Kurumi kinda got what she deserved when they finally returned Kyoske to his real body and he found himself kissing her and not Madoka!


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Less than she deserved, IMO. Kyosuke should have been the one jumping up and down on her back for putting him in such danger. It was extremely selfish of Kurumi to expect Kyosuke to play her game with the rope when he had a date with Madoka and Hikaru.

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My only other comment: Shame on you, Grampa, for allowing something so dangerous into irresponsible Kurumi's hands (Nanami would have been more responsible with it, i think...afterall, after looking at the food, her first comment was that she could make a nice dinner from all the stuff!"

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Ojiisan was quite annoyed that no one believed him. Unfortunately, Kyosuke was the one who paid the price. It should have been Kurumi that became a goldfish.

[Amasawa]

Since there were no calls for a pause, we might as well start the first Kimagure Orange Road movie.

How many years have the three known each other? Poor Hikaru obsessing over one guy all that time, finally gets a kiss, and is dumped. In one stroke she lost her best friend and her fist love.

Unfortunately, it was a result of her own doing. She knew how Kyosuke felt about Madoka and she probably knew how Madoka felt, yet she tried to force the situation in her favor. All along, Hikaru has tried to impose her reality on the world by acting as though it were true. In the end it failed spectacularly.

After all those years of obsession, small wonder that she couldn't let go. A horribly painful position to be in, and a very unpleasant situation for Kyosuke.

We see an entirely different Madoka than we are used to. She has finally decided to put her feelings ahead of those of her friend, and she does it completely. There is no sign of regret or sorrow. Hikaru is cast out. A life-long friendship abandoned.

It was clear that things were building to this point. When we first see them in Abcb, Hikaru seems a little concerned about Madoka's presence. Madoka brushes Hikaru off an monopolizes Kyosuke's attention. A quiet rivalry is definitely going on.

There are a number of symbolic images in the film. Three oranges sit prominently on the coffee table with Madoka's black piano providing the background. At that point the three main characters are still friends, but the strain is showing.

Hikaru's ukata is black and orange. Kyosuke is wearing a black shirt. Black and orange seem to have some significance in the movie. I'm not sure what the symbolism is. I don't think the Celtic festival of Halloween figures high in Japanese symbolic language. /images/graemlins/wink.gif My understanding is that, unlike the west, death is represented by white.

Just before Kyosuke gives Hikaru the dumping line, a kingfisher catches a fish. A jumping koi is often used in anime to imply love. Perhaps the kingfisher symbolizes the death of love. There is also a hawk souring. Other than it being a predator, I'm not sure what its symbolism might be.

A white dove joins another perched on a street lamp. Then Kyosuke meets Madoka on a bridge. Later the two doves fly off together.

There are probably other things I missed.

Hikaru brings Kyosuke some Dady Borden (http://www.bordenonline.com/) ice cream just before the kiss. I remember Borden from my childhood. I guess they are still operating in Texas. Do they, or did they, have a presence in Japan?

[Njr Scrawl]

IIRC we've previously established these exams are the high school entrance exams, different from the grade ones in eps #47 &amp; #48. So the movie can almost be slotted into the TV continuity, but not completely seamlessly.

Whether you consider Madoka in this story to be from the TV or not,
she seems "not so strong" emotionally. If the TV Madoka, I think she would feel more emotionally secure than she does here, &amp; less
"jealous". OTOH, the TV Madoka could feel very upset as all the
assurances she felt from her experiences in #47 &amp; #48 are suddenly shaken up. Madoka said to Kyosuke she thought she was his, &amp; then she learned of his kiss with Hikaru (though the kiss probably meant less to him). Madoka's sister's comment about her husband flirting with other women probably didn't help either.

That classroom scene shows her deeper hurt under the surface than first impression. At first it looks like a usual huff, but when later Madoka is at home in her bedroom, she is very unhappy &amp; feels alone &amp; deserted - she can't bring herself to telephone &amp; sits on her bed her face changing to tearful, more emotional playing in slow motion. Its the first time Madoka cries in reality as well (although she has been depressed before, especially in Cat/Fish).

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It was clear that things were building to this point. When we first see them in Abcb, Hikaru seems a little concerned about Madoka's presence. Madoka brushes Hikaru off an monopolizes Kyosuke's attention. A quiet rivalry is definitely going on.

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I sensed that. Hikaru is as her usual self, but aware that the exams are an occassion where she will be excluded, &amp; is being extra sweet.
Madoka almost dismisses Hikaru in a semi-formal upper to lower classman way. She senses Hikaru's feeling left out, but (Kyosuke doesn't realise), Madoka is making a bigger sacrifice in going to cram school. Only Kyosuke needs to go, &amp; Madoka is prepared to give her time up to be his companion there.

[ QUOTE ]
There are a number of symbolic images in the film. Three oranges sit prominently on the coffee table with Madoka's black piano providing the background. At that point the three main characters are still friends, but the strain is showing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 4 oranges could be our triange + Yuusaku. Madoka eats one (did she say something to Yuusaku to keep him away?), &amp; then there are 3 left.

Move to the knitting needles scene. Madoka realises suddenly Hikaru will see her photos of Kyosuke, which Hikaru does &amp; lets out a little gasp. Perhaps she didn't expect Madoka to have pictures, as she did (in I Was a Cat). Most telling is Hikaru's clenched fist. Its indicative of her resolve to try harder, &amp; her deliberately saying to Madoka that the knitting is for 15 November (they both knew what the date means) is a first real warning to Madoka that there is going to be competition.

Hikaru has the upper hand psychologically at this point, which carries on into their walk along the quay. Madoka walking a noticable few steps behind, &amp; the pause between their general chit-chat &amp; Madoka's festival question shows that she is uneasy. By the time evening comes, Madoka is feeling more depressed, insecure &amp; alone again to make the call to Kyosuke (slightly surprising he didn't "jump" to her house).

Poor Hikaru! She has tried very hard to keep Kyosuke, &amp; in the movie she works hard again. All Madoka has to do is make one tearsome phone call - though I (now) believe it was genuine enough - to get Kyosuke out of his own emotional lethargy &amp; do the heavy work. Hikaru who was always desperate for genuine love, with her pleas &amp; tantrums being rebuffed, shows how raw &amp; vulnerable she really is. Erico Hara's voice acting is superb (&amp; in the KOR movie 1 official booklet given out at cinemas, Erico &amp; the director have the big interviews).

In the last scene between the 2 girls at Abcb, Hikaru says its not fair annoys Madoka who likely feels Hikaru always ignored her (Madoka's) own feelings. Then Hikaru adding she (Hikaru) knew Kyosuke loved Madoka, but kept trying anyway angered Madoka again (probably thinking of all those times she thought she had been protecting Hikaru's feelings at Kyosuke's expense). Madoka realised she's almost won, so she could reply &amp; apologise cooly, though it must have been painful to say they can't be together as a group again.

I liked the "reunion" cram school class scene, &amp; Madoka's little questionnaire. Kyosuke has learned not to speak to her, &amp; tell everything. Finally!

Then the strange skyscraper window scene, which is what puts movie 1 out of kilter most with KOR TV IMO. After discussing how they think Hikaru will react, Kyosuke says (paraphrased) "I really do love you Ayukawa", &amp; Madoka stares almost bug-eyed on hearing it. Its seemed there, that the ep.48 ending never happened, Madoka should not have been startled on hearing it again.

Raining scenes always seem to be emotional times. The biggest emotional meltdowns in Maison Ikkoku &amp; Sailor Moon Stars are when its raining. KOR's scene, with the wonderful Wada Kanako song, is a real tearjerker. I felt for both Kyosuke &amp; Hikaru deeply. Kyosuke's saying "sayonara Hikaru" to himself was so final.

Luckily it was sunny next day &amp; he had Madoka to really open up to, &amp; have her all to himself. When they were going shopping &amp; testing each other on their revision, Kyosuke asked Madoka about 1969, the year they were born. It is the manga year they were born!

Madoka was wearing her red blouse &amp; green skirt from early TV episodes, so the creators managed to put in an anime reference as well.

Lastly, the flashback photo album scene had photos of Madoka &amp; Hikaru looking younger - say about 4 - 5 years old - than in eps 47-8. But about the time Madoka's photo of herself with parents &amp; sister was taken in Message in Rouge.

And Hikaru found a new "love".

[Isuzu Inugami]

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Bumble said:
There are some very funny scenes in this episode (the very first one I saw, thanks to the alternate Animego/MVM order), coupled with some nice higher budgeted animation like most of the other OVAs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, now that you mention it, this was the first KOR I ever saw as well!

Actually, perhaps this is a problem in how people interpret KOR. This episode pounds home the whole "Kyosuke can't decide between Hikaru and Madoka" idea, and a lot of people approach KOR from that persepective. But after the TV series (which rarely if ever plays the "indecisive" game) and even quite a few of the OAVs, I don't think that's really what's been going on. Kyo decided on Madoka long ago, but he's too much a nice guy (or wimp) to slap Hikaru down when she attaches herself to him. And Madoka is kimagure--whimsical--so he's never quite sure how she feels, or if cutting off Hikaru, her best friend, would turn Madoka away from him. That's usually the core of the conflict in any given episde.

Of course, all of us who saw this OAV first got stuck in the "indecisive" mode, which is how the show is often described.

I thought it was interesting in this episode that Madoka ascribes "indecisiveness" as the feature that makes the fish and cat Kyo-like, and Hikaru says no, it's their cuteness. Madoka's perspective is of a relationship she's a bit exasperated with for it's lack of progression; Hikaru is happy with the surface as it is now.

This episode is fun for the fighting-by-proxy over Kyo that goes on. Hikaru identifies the fish with Kyo (little do they know!), and then suggests they compete for who can catch him. Hikaru essentially gives Madoka permission to compete face-to-face over "Kyo", and Makdoka suddenly takes on a very determined and intense look. Watch out Hikaru! What have you unleashed? Madoka wins the fish fairly, but gives it to Hikaru out of kindness, or perhaps diplomacy.

Later when they compete over the cat as another stand-in for Kyo, Hikaru wins by cheating, but gives the cat to Madoka out of sympathy, or maybe guilt. Madoka seems very pissed under the surface that Hikaru won't be content with fish-Kyo, but wants cat-Kyo too. Hikaru is a very dear friend, and Madoka will make sacrifices for her, but there are limits, and this fighting over Kyo through these animal proxies has gotten her blood up.

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there are some...unforgettable scenes with Madoka 'playing cat' to a stunned Kyosuke as well! /images/graemlins/happy.gif

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Heh. He's seeing a side to her he is seldom treated to.

Other thoughts: Does it not occur to Madoka that the reason the cat looks just like Jingoro, except the color, is because she spilled a bottle of wine all over Jingoro?

Can't Kyo teleport back to the house on his own to be taken care of? When he swapped bodies with Kazuya, he didn't get Kazuya's mind-reading ability, so it seems esper abilities travel with the mind, not the body. Maybe he was worried about not landing in water, and not being able to teleport back to water easily enough if nobody was there to help. But as a cat... well, come to think of it, most of his time as a cat he was right where he wanted to be! /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

I like the inclusion of cutlery in the ceremony to summon Kyo's spirit back. Also, Manami looks awesomely cool during it. She needs her own spin-off series. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
IIRC we've previously established these exams are the high school entrance exams, different from the grade ones in eps #47 &amp; #48. So the movie can almost be slotted into the TV continuity, but not completely seamlessly.


[/ QUOTE ]
I guess I'm confused. These weren't college entrance exams? I thought they went to an elevator school, so high school entrance exams wouldn't be such a big deal. Was it just that Kyosuke was such a bad student?

Weren't there some episodes (OVAs perhaps) where they were high school seniors and still a threesome?

[ QUOTE ]

Whether you consider Madoka in this story to be from the TV or not, she seems "not so strong" emotionally. If the TV Madoka, I think she would feel more emotionally secure than she does here, &amp; less "jealous".

[/ QUOTE ]
I think Madoka denied her feelings and supported her friends. Now it has come to a point where they can no longer be denied. Her confidence is shattered by the kiss, and she is having a hard time dealing with it. She is forced to make the choice she couldn't make throughout the TV series.

[ QUOTE ]
OTOH, the TV Madoka could feel very upset as all the assurances she felt from her experiences in #47 &amp; #48 are suddenly shaken up. Madoka said to Kyosuke she thought she was his, &amp; then she learned of his kiss with Hikaru (though the kiss probably meant less to him). Madoka's sister's comment about her husband flirting with other women probably didn't help either.


[/ QUOTE ]
Madoka gave a few clues in the TV series that she was very lonely. She had a tough shell to hide her emotions, but there was a soft, vulnerable underside to her.

[ QUOTE ]

That classroom scene shows her deeper hurt under the surface than first impression. At first it looks like a usual huff, but when later Madoka is at home in her bedroom, she is very unhappy &amp; feels alone &amp; deserted - she can't bring herself to telephone &amp; sits on her bed her face changing to tearful, more emotional playing in slow motion. Its the first time Madoka cries in reality as well (although she has been depressed before, especially in Cat/Fish).


[/ QUOTE ]
A Madoka not able to study is one very upset Madoka. I think a lot of emotions were swirling around in her head -- leaving her unable to take any action. She was surprised by the level of her jealousy, she was afraid that she had lost Kyosuke, she had to figure out what to do about it, and she had to resolve her internal conflict about Hikaru.

It is interesting that Kyosuke let her stew for three days. Early in the TV series, Kyosuke didn't stop calling her until she gave in and answered. This time he seems to try twice and then let her be. It was the right decision because she needed to sort things out.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
It was clear that things were building to this point. When we first see them in Abcb, Hikaru seems a little concerned about Madoka's presence. Madoka brushes Hikaru off an monopolizes Kyosuke's attention. A quiet rivalry is definitely going on.

[/ QUOTE ]

I sensed that. Hikaru is as her usual self, but aware that the exams are an occassion where she will be excluded, &amp; is being extra sweet.
Madoka almost dismisses Hikaru in a semi-formal upper to lower classman way. She senses Hikaru's feeling left out, but (Kyosuke doesn't realise), Madoka is making a bigger sacrifice in going to cram school. Only Kyosuke needs to go, &amp; Madoka is prepared to give her time up to be his companion there.


[/ QUOTE ]
Hikaru isn't quite her usual self. You can sense a little competitive concern from her as she looks back at them from counter, and from the storeroom door. I think Hikaru is a little worried about Madoka taking Kyosuke. That is why she is making the "snack attacks," knit B-day present, and the kiss. With Madoka &amp; Kyosuke going off to another school, she will have less contact with him. So, she is trying to get her claws stuck into him good, while she can. It is this extra effort on Hikaru's part that pushes things to crisis point.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
There are a number of symbolic images in the film. Three oranges sit prominently on the coffee table with Madoka's black piano providing the background. At that point the three main characters are still friends, but the strain is showing.

[/ QUOTE ]

The 4 oranges could be our triange + Yuusaku. Madoka eats one (did she say something to Yuusaku to keep him away?), &amp; then there are 3 left.


[/ QUOTE ]
I was talking about the scene where the three are shown in the foreground, in an iconic way. The four can be explained by Hikaru bringing two for each of them. It is after the scene in the room that they seem like symbols.

[ QUOTE ]
q
Move to the knitting needles scene. Madoka realises suddenly Hikaru will see her photos of Kyosuke, which Hikaru does &amp; lets out a little gasp. Perhaps she didn't expect Madoka to have pictures, as she did (in I Was a Cat). Most telling is Hikaru's clenched fist. Its indicative of her resolve to try harder, &amp; her deliberately saying to Madoka that the knitting is for 15 November (they both knew what the date means) is a first real warning to Madoka that there is going to be competition.


[/ QUOTE ]
It is odd that Hikaru has never seen those photos before. Perhaps Madoka hid them whenever Hikaru came over. This can't be the first time Hikaru has been in Madoka's room. There is the time they took Kazuya home to clean him up after a spill. There must have been numerous other times.

I think this is Kimagure Orange Road playing it a bit loose with continuity for the sake of plot and dramatic effect.

[ QUOTE ]

Hikaru has the upper hand psychologically at this point, which carries on into their walk along the quay. Madoka walking a noticable few steps behind, &amp; the pause between their general chit-chat &amp; Madoka's festival question shows that she is uneasy. By the time evening comes, Madoka is feeling more depressed, insecure &amp; alone again to make the call to Kyosuke (slightly surprising he didn't "jump" to her house).


[/ QUOTE ]
You can tell that Hikaru knows she is sticking a knife into Madoka with the B-day comment. There is a bit of battle bravado in the way she says it. I think it is this rivalry that allows Madoka to disregard Hikaru's pain in the end.

[ QUOTE ]

Poor Hikaru! She has tried very hard to keep Kyosuke, &amp; in the movie she works hard again. All Madoka has to do is make one tearsome phone call - though I (now) believe it was genuine enough - to get Kyosuke out of his own emotional lethargy &amp; do the heavy work.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess Kyosuke could have made the decision to dump Hikaru on his own, but it would have been risky. Madoka trained him long ago to be nice to Hikaru and continue the pretense of liking her. She really needed to be the one to call an end to it.

In a way, the kiss really was Madoka's punishment for not being more honest about her own feelings.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru who was always desperate for genuine love, with her pleas &amp; tantrums being rebuffed, shows how raw &amp; vulnerable she really is. Erico Hara's voice acting is superb (&amp; in the KOR movie 1 official booklet given out at cinemas, Erico &amp; the director have the big interviews).


[/ QUOTE ]
Hikaru seemed so loving on the surface, but she actually had little empathy for Kyosuke. She was not at all sensitive to his feelings. She was trying to mold him into what she wanted. Deep down, Hikaru was a very selfish person.

[ QUOTE ]

In the last scene between the 2 girls at Abcb, Hikaru says its not fair annoys Madoka who likely feels Hikaru always ignored her (Madoka's) own feelings. Then Hikaru adding she (Hikaru) knew Kyosuke loved Madoka, but kept trying anyway angered Madoka again (probably thinking of all those times she thought she had been protecting Hikaru's feelings at Kyosuke's expense). Madoka realised she's almost won, so she could reply &amp; apologise cooly, though it must have been painful to say they can't be together as a group again.


[/ QUOTE ]
I didn't notice much regret on Madoka's part. I think you are right that Madoka had grown weary of the one-way aspect of their friendship.

[ QUOTE ]

I liked the "reunion" cram school class scene, &amp; Madoka's little questionnaire. Kyosuke has learned not to speak to her, &amp; tell everything. Finally!


[/ QUOTE ]
What wasn't he telling her?

[ QUOTE ]

Then the strange skyscraper window scene, which is what puts movie 1 out of kilter most with KOR TV IMO. After discussing how they think Hikaru will react, Kyosuke says (paraphrased) "I really do love you Ayukawa", &amp; Madoka stares almost bug-eyed on hearing it. Its seemed there, that the ep.48 ending never happened, Madoka should not have been startled on hearing it again.


[/ QUOTE ]
Madoka does get a bit weird at the end of the flashback. Just before they return to the B&amp;W present, she asks if she can believe in him. Then tells him that she wont blame him for being out all night with Hikaru. It is as though she doesn't really believe him, but will pretend to. The really odd line is where she tells him that if she did blame him, he wouldn't have anyone to turn to. What!? Does she mistrust him so much that she thinks he fooled around with Hikaru rather than what he told her about her stalking? If so, he could easily turn back to Hikaru. What was she thinking. I think Madoka's last lines of the flashback are the worst lines in all of Kimagure Orange Road.

[ QUOTE ]

Raining scenes always seem to be emotional times. The biggest emotional meltdowns in Maison Ikkoku &amp; Sailor Moon Stars are when its raining. KOR's scene, with the wonderful Wada Kanako song, is a real tearjerker. I felt for both Kyosuke &amp; Hikaru deeply. Kyosuke's saying "sayonara Hikaru" to himself was so final.


[/ QUOTE ]
Because of the rain, Kyosuke couldn't go back home. He looked at the umbrellas but chose not to buy one.

It also was the point he couldn't go back to Hikaru. He could have gone back where she waited outside the apt., but said his sayonara instead.

[ QUOTE ]

Lastly, the flashback photo album scene had photos of Madoka &amp; Hikaru looking younger - say about 4 - 5 years old - than in eps 47-8. But about the time Madoka's photo of herself with parents &amp; sister was taken in Message in Rouge.


[/ QUOTE ]
I've never quite understood the point of that flashback within a flashback.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
There are some very funny scenes in this episode (the very first one I saw, thanks to the alternate Animego/MVM order), coupled with some nice higher budgeted animation like most of the other OVAs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey, now that you mention it, this was the first KOR I ever saw as well!


[/ QUOTE ]
Me as well.

[ QUOTE ]

Other thoughts: Does it not occur to Madoka that the reason the cat looks just like Jingoro, except the color, is because she spilled a bottle of wine all over Jingoro?


[/ QUOTE ]
She must have had a bit too much herself. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

Can't Kyo teleport back to the house on his own to be taken care of?


[/ QUOTE ]
Where could he teleport to that would have water and be safe? It would have to be somewhere that a family member would notice him and know what to do, before Jingoro found him. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[ QUOTE ]

I like the inclusion of cutlery in the ceremony to summon Kyo's spirit back. Also, Manami looks awesomely cool during it. She needs her own spin-off series. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah yes, exotic western implements.

Perhaps the association with fork bending...

[Bumble]

Ah, Movie 1. I only watched this for the first time a few months ago, but plenty of it has already been permanently burned into my mind! First of all, after having watched these characters for 48 episodes and 8 OVAs, I can only describe Movie 1 as one of the most heart-breaking andgut-wrenching productions I've ever seen.

The moive is certainly one of the most clear and extreme examples of one story changing everything. The movie makes the feelings of all three protagonists clear for all of them to see, which was obviously not much of a surprise to anyone. Of course, the most devastating aspect of this reveal is that Hikaru finally realizes that Kyoske really does love Madoka (even though she claims to have known all along). You could tell she would be devastated (as per many episodes in the series), but the movie really takes emotional heartbreak to a whole new level. It's clear that all three of them knew that day would come, and what Kyoske's decision would be, but how he actually goes about dumping Hikaru is exceptionally cold, quite unlike the character seen in the 48 previous TV episodes. Madoka too, is very distant to her childhood friend, only speaking once to her after the big reveal. I guess even though I knew the movie put an end to the triangle, I didn't expect it to be so traumatic for all the characters.

Of course Kyoske made the right decision, but the way it was handled seemed inherently wrong to me, considering all that had gone before. As I understand it, the movie as a whole was purposely made different from the TV series (no Power) and even different from the manga ending (which sounds far more fitting and fair for the characters). It's also very ironic to think that the movie is called "I Want To Return To That Day", because Kyoske really could have returned to that day using time-travel (which wouldn't have been a bad idea, quite frankly!). Yet with the movie having the same character designs as the series, this just served to compound this very depressing ending to the triangle relationship. It was really quite sad to finally find out that Hikaru's infatuation with Kyosuke was indeed very genuine and came from the very bottom of her soul.

The worst aspect of Kyoske dumping Hikaru is that then even he and Madoka don't seem too happy afterwards; it's more like bittersweet feelings on both their parts. In an unexpected reversal of the TV ending, the movie concentrated on Hikaru rather than Madoka, and thus it's this focus that makes the film so overwhelmingly sad. I think at least if we'd have seen the benefits of Kyoske and Madoka confessing their love for each other, then there would have been something of a positive flipside to the story. I at least expected some happiness from Madoka and Kyoske finally getting together, but they don't even kiss in the film!

However, the movie does ultimately end on what seems to be a positive note for Hikaru, who despite her deep sadness, didn't let it spill over to other aspects of her life, and probably ends up as a better person because of it. I think if that one scene hadn't been there, the film would have been even more depressing!

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
When they were going shopping &amp; testing each other on their revision, Kyosuke asked Madoka about 1969, the year they were born. It is the manga year they were born!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's things like this that make me wonder just what universe the movie is supposed to be in, along with some moments that don't quite ring true to the characters as they've been shown. I can only guess that the movie was purposefully designed to appeal to a broader audience (hence, no power to be seen or mentioned anywhere), and that the characters' ages were moved up to real time to ensure a 1988 date for the film's events.

I wonder why the makers felt that a completely new story was warranted to end the relationship, especially one as harsh as this? I'm guessing it may simply have been due to the manga's originally truncated ending, but I'm not sure exactly when it was cancelled.

[plaidwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:

[ QUOTE ]

I liked the "reunion" cram school class scene, &amp; Madoka's little questionnaire. Kyosuke has learned not to speak to her, &amp; tell everything. Finally!


[/ QUOTE ]
What wasn't he telling her?
[ QUOTE ]


I think what was meant was Kyo has finally learned to communicate with Madoka in a way where he can let her know what happened and not have to say it out loud.

Althought it takes time to develop, many couples DO have that ability with a look or a gesture, and their partner understands immediately what is going on...

and that ability is what was being developed between Kyo and Madoka during their cram study sessions and Hikaru picked up on that immediately in the movie

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
It's clear that all three of them knew that day would come, and what Kyoske's decision would be, but how he actually goes about dumping Hikaru is exceptionally cold, quite unlike the character seen in the 48 previous TV episodes.

[/ QUOTE ]
You think Hikaru knew that Kyosuke would choose Madoka in the end? I think she truly thought she would be able to win him over.

Madoka thought she knew, but had her confidence shattered by Hikaru's kiss.

I'm not sure how other tactics would have worked on Hikaru. She has had a very strong tendency for denial of things she didn't like. This was displayed throughout the TV series. She believed what she wanted to, in spite of the evidence. I think Kyosuke told her he couldn't see her anymore because he knew she wouldn't accept just being friends.

[ QUOTE ]
Madoka too, is very distant to her childhood friend, only speaking once to her after the big reveal. I guess even though I knew the movie put an end to the triangle, I didn't expect it to be so traumatic for all the characters.


[/ QUOTE ]
Madoka was conflicted about this from the beginning. That it took her so long to make her decision shows how hard it was for her. That Hikaru was so selfish about it in the end was probably helpful. As Njr pointed out, Hikaru telling Madoka that she knew all along how Kyosuke felt, but thought she had been able to do something about it, relieved Madoka of any guilt she might have felt. Hikaru didn't care about anything but her own desires and was treating Madoka as a rival.

[ QUOTE ]

Of course Kyoske made the right decision, but the way it was handled seemed inherently wrong to me, considering all that had gone before.

[/ QUOTE ]
It had been wrong to string Hikaru along for so long, but how better could he have ended it? Hikaru didn't give him a lot of options.

[ QUOTE ]
As I understand it, the movie as a whole was purposely made different from the TV series (no Power) and even different from the manga ending (which sounds far more fitting and fair for the characters).

[/ QUOTE ]
How does the manga handle it?

[ QUOTE ]
It's also very ironic to think that the movie is called "I Want To Return To That Day", because Kyoske really could have returned to that day using time-travel (which wouldn't have been a bad idea, quite frankly!).

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite clear on what day that is. Is it the time when they were all still friends, or to the day he dumped her so he could do it differently. I sort of thought it was a nostalgia for when they were all getting along together, but with the knowledge that it could never be that way again.

[ QUOTE ]
Yet with the movie having the same character designs as the series, this just served to compound this very depressing ending to the triangle relationship. It was really quite sad to finally find out that Hikaru's infatuation with Kyosuke was indeed very genuine and came from the very bottom of her soul.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, the infatuation was real enough, but that's what is was, an infatuation. It wasn't a healthy kind of love. Hikaru tells Madoka that she could do anything for Kyosuke, but I think she means that she could do anything to possess Kyosuke. The things she did for him were things she wanted to do, or things to obtain what she wanted. She wasn't really concerned with what Kyosuke wanted or needed.

[ QUOTE ]

The worst aspect of Kyoske dumping Hikaru is that then even he and Madoka don't seem too happy afterwards; it's more like bittersweet feelings on both their parts. In an unexpected reversal of the TV ending, the movie concentrated on Hikaru rather than Madoka, and thus it's this focus that makes the film so overwhelmingly sad. I think at least if we'd have seen the benefits of Kyoske and Madoka confessing their love for each other, then there would have been something of a positive flipside to the story. I at least expected some happiness from Madoka and Kyoske finally getting together, but they don't even kiss in the film!


[/ QUOTE ]
They both knew how much pain Hikaru felt. That had to temper their feelings. This movie wasn't really about Kyosuke and Madoka revealing their love for each other. They did that at the end of the TV episodes. This was about resolving the Hikaru conflict. The TV ending completely ignored how Hikaru would react to their pledge of love for each other.

Madoka and Kyosuke both knew that they loved each other, but hadn't openly revealed it to Hikaru. Hikaru pushed things to the point where they could no longer avoid it. Kyosuke had to reassure Madoka that he loved her, but it was just returning things to where Madoka had thought they had been prior to Hikaru's kiss. In the end it seems that Madoka is still not completely confident in Kyosuke's love. She really has a problem trusting guys to be true.

I also thought that Kyosuke and Madoka could have shown a better bonding than Madoka saying she wouldn't blame him for being out with Hikaru. However, for them to show any joy would have seemed too heartless after Hikaru's grief. She was their close friend and the breakup of the trio was a loss for them as well.

[ QUOTE ]

However, the movie does ultimately end on what seems to be a positive note for Hikaru, who despite her deep sadness, didn't let it spill over to other aspects of her life, and probably ends up as a better person because of it. I think if that one scene hadn't been there, the film would have been even more depressing!


[/ QUOTE ]
She paid her dues and can now sing the blues with feeling. While only a consolation, the emotions she went through would give her something to draw on for a successful acting career.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
When they were going shopping &amp; testing each other on their revision, Kyosuke asked Madoka about 1969, the year they were born. It is the manga year they were born!

[/ QUOTE ]

It's things like this that make me wonder just what universe the movie is supposed to be in, along with some moments that don't quite ring true to the characters as they've been shown. I can only guess that the movie was purposefully designed to appeal to a broader audience (hence, no power to be seen or mentioned anywhere), and that the characters' ages were moved up to real time to ensure a 1988 date for the film's events.


[/ QUOTE ]
Making Kyosuke and Madoka 19. Another reason why I thought these were college entrance exams, rather than high school entrance exams.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
Madoka does get a bit weird at the end of the flashback. Just before they return to the B&amp;W present, she asks if she can believe in him. Then tells him that she wont blame him for being out all night with Hikaru. It is as though she doesn't really believe him, but will pretend to. The really odd line is where she tells him that if she did blame him, he wouldn't have anyone to turn to. What!? Does she mistrust him so much that she thinks he fooled around with Hikaru rather than what he told her about her stalking? If so, he could easily turn back to Hikaru. What was she thinking. I think Madoka's last lines of the flashback are the worst lines in all of Kimagure Orange Road.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most confusing lines of all KOR, put it down to bad/tired writing &amp; not Madoka's weakness! I never really get what she was trying to say either, unless it was (the writers) showing Madoka trying to put her deepest feelings of love &amp; relief into words awkwardly, &amp; still being a little uncertain. Madoka has never been gushy &amp; perhaps is not quite sure what to say or how to say it - if she had not said it so sweetly it almost sounded like a gloat . Why the heck didn't she just grab Kyosuke &amp; kiss him, which would have been much better &amp; a good one-up on Hikaru's kiss! Ep.48 has the better romantic ending for sure.

[Njr Scrawl]

Kyosuke did also go through an emotional grinder. He didn't go to the carnival because of his state &amp; was already in a mental stew before Madoka's call, because she was avoiding him. His own emotional block was already eating him up.

Madoka's call was the kick he needed to sort himself out, as well as the girls. His resolve I think showed that.

First time telling Hikaru was painful for him, but gentle enough given the circs. Hikaru blew her fringe up, which meant "I'm not going to make it so easy". And she didn't. Kyosuke was cool but gentle right until Hikaru started actively stalking him, &amp; then he had to get hard and cold to put his message across, because he was at the end of his emotional tether as well. Very human, as are all the reactions in this movie.

One point to remember, the circumstances of the movie make it a no-escape situation. None can run away. Kyosuke &amp; Madoka are stuck due to their exams, &amp; Hikaru for her auditions. Confrontation was inevitable. Life's timing stinks sometimes.

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
[ QUOTE ]
Madoka does get a bit weird at the end of the flashback. Just before they return to the B&amp;W present, she asks if she can believe in him. Then tells him that she wont blame him for being out all night with Hikaru. It is as though she doesn't really believe him, but will pretend to. The really odd line is where she tells him that if she did blame him, he wouldn't have anyone to turn to. What!? Does she mistrust him so much that she thinks he fooled around with Hikaru rather than what he told her about her stalking? If so, he could easily turn back to Hikaru. What was she thinking. I think Madoka's last lines of the flashback are the worst lines in all of Kimagure Orange Road.

[/ QUOTE ]

Most confusing lines of all KOR, put it down to bad/tired writing &amp; not Madoka's weakness! I never really get what she was trying to say either, unless it was (the writers) showing Madoka trying to put her deepest feelings of love &amp; relief into words awkwardly, &amp; still being a little uncertain. Madoka has never been gushy &amp; perhaps is not quite sure what to say or how to say it - if she had not said it so sweetly it almost sounded like a gloat.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's not really a gloat. I thought about what she said, and have determined the meaning. Of course she trusts him. That's what she is saying. Let me paraphrase it:

"Of course I trust you. After all that you had to go through, and give up to get to this point, it would be cold for me to leave you with nobody to turn to."

They just condensed it. And the meaning is probably lost in the translation, but because it would take so many more words in english to convey the same meaning. It's just not possible to put it all in the subtitles.

As for the feelings in the movie... Everyone has to go through pain. Madoka and Kyosuke go through about the same pain as Hikaru does, but Hikaru has a sadder life in front of her. Madoka and Kyosuke both get the consolidation of being with each other, but Hikaru doesn't get anything. As for Kyosuke being cold to her... I think it was the only thing he could do. Any kindness that he showed her just got her hopes up that somehow she could turn it into something positive for her relationship with him. Hikaru needs to mature quite a bit before they can be friends again, and Madoka and Kyosuke's relationship needs to become strong enough for that as well.

I do feel sorry for Hikaru. Nobody ever deserves to have their heart broken, no matter how selfish or evil they may be. And Hikaru isn't evil, just selfish. This does help make her strong, and her [forced] freedom from the others allows her to pursue her life in stage acting.

-TC

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
IIRC we've previously established these exams are the high school entrance exams, different from the grade ones in eps #47 &amp; #48. So the movie can almost be slotted into the TV continuity, but not completely seamlessly.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah, this was college entrance exams, not high school. They didn't have to sit entrance exams for high school, just needed to pass with decent grades. That's one of the benefits to them going to this type of private school. In fact, there is probably a college attached to the school, and they could have went to that, but if they went to Wasada University, you don't get much better than that... Well, I can think of a few that Madoka could have gotten into that would have been better, but Wasada is a very, very good school, and would put both of them into a nice life after college. The college attached to their high school would not be nearly as prestigious.

The movie takes place 3 years after the end of the TV series, but there is nothing that takes place between the end of the TV and the movie. You can fit it if you try real hard, but it's not worth trying to wedge it all together into a single continuity. The story is good if you don't over think it.

-TC

[Bumble]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
You think Hikaru knew that Kyosuke would choose Madoka in the end? I think she truly thought she would be able to win him over.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bit of a stretch, but it's a combination of Hikrau's claim that she'd known all along about Madoka's feelings for Kyosuke, coupled with the occasions later on in the TV series that are pretty much unambiguous regarding their feelings for each other. I do agree that Hikaru probably still thought she'd be able to win Kyosuke over though; that's why she falls apart. It's her strong sense of denial that you mentioned.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
It had been wrong to string Hikaru along for so long, but how better could he have ended it? Hikaru didn't give him a lot of options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow, I always thought that Kyosuke and Madoka dealing with Hikaru separately seemed a bit off to me. I don't think there's any scenario in which Hikaru would have taken things much better, but perhaps if she'd seen Kyosuke and Madoka together not long after Kyosuke first confesses to her, she might have come to her senses more quickly.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
How does the manga handle it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe Hikaru figures it out after she's told that Kyosuke only has his heart for someone who wore a certain red hat. I think it strictly follows on from the events shown in TV #47/48, so Madoka and Kyosuke are definitely being much clearer towards each other. Hikaru's obviously not pleased, but still manages to retain a sense of dignity. I gather it's more anger than abject denial on her front.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Yes, the infatuation was real enough, but that's what is was, an infatuation. It wasn't a healthy kind of love.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's me speaking after having seen <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>Movie 2, where Hikaru clearly still has strong feelings for Kyosuke, even after the events in the first movie, and knowing that Kyosuke had effectively been leading her on for four years.</span>

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
They both knew how much pain Hikaru felt. That had to temper their feelings. This movie wasn't really about Kyosuke and Madoka revealing their love for each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

It still seemed an odd omission to me that they weren't even shown kissing after having gone through all that heartache.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
"....it would be cold for me to leave you with nobody to turn to."

[/ QUOTE ]

I got that meaning, sorta, from the subtitles. But what confuses me is her saying it at all.

It certainly would be cold for Madoka to leave Kyosuke, &amp; after everything, but that's obvious.

But why did she mention leaving him though? Was it a tease perhaps, another emotional tweak like those in the movies? Maybe it was tongue-in-cheek with a little edge? There they are finally together with no Hikaru, as the close couple each wants to be, &amp; Madoka seems to be talking like, "I'll give you a try". Not the cosiest thing to say after she ultimatumed Kyosuke to have her only by giving up anything more to do with Hikaru, at any level.

I guess the OVAs excluding Message &amp; the Stage ones could be fitted between ep 48 &amp; movie 1, as snapshot stories of those 3 years. But then a lot of disregarding certain aspects is needed.

"Summer's Beginning" is medicine after movie 1. More like the TV characters personalities in a feature long episode (except Hikaru is now a gorgeous goddess too). But it wouldn't be so sweet without the bitter taste of movie 1 preceding it. /images/graemlins/knowital.gif

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
You think Hikaru knew that Kyosuke would choose Madoka in the end? I think she truly thought she would be able to win him over.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a bit of a stretch, but it's a combination of Hikrau's claim that she'd known all along about Madoka's feelings for Kyosuke, coupled with the occasions later on in the TV series that are pretty much unambiguous regarding their feelings for each other. I do agree that Hikaru probably still thought she'd be able to win Kyosuke over though; that's why she falls apart. It's her strong sense of denial that you mentioned.


[/ QUOTE ]
Deep in her subconscious she may have known, but not on the surface. I could go with that.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
It had been wrong to string Hikaru along for so long, but how better could he have ended it? Hikaru didn't give him a lot of options.

[/ QUOTE ]

Somehow, I always thought that Kyosuke and Madoka dealing with Hikaru separately seemed a bit off to me. I don't think there's any scenario in which Hikaru would have taken things much better, but perhaps if she'd seen Kyosuke and Madoka together not long after Kyosuke first confesses to her, she might have come to her senses more quickly.


[/ QUOTE ]
After Madoka makes it clear how she feels to Kyosuke, in her tearful phone call and his coming over, in her mind it is up to Kyosuke to decide between them. He has to show, by his actions, who he loves.

So, because of the crisis caused by Hikaru's kiss, Madoka would have a difficult time playing the part in front of Hikaru. She's lost too much confidence to pull it off.

If the two hadn't continued to hide their feelings from Hikaru, they probably could have just let Hikaru see them together romantically. The combination of their hiding things from Hikaru, and Hikaru pushing it to crisis point, made it the catastrophe it turned out to be. Madoka paid the price for her inability to deal with the issue. As could be seen from early on, the longer they deceived Hikaru, the worse it was for everyone.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
How does the manga handle it?

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe Hikaru figures it out after she's told that Kyosuke only has his heart for someone who wore a certain red hat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who told her, Kurumi, Manami, Master?

[ QUOTE ]
I think it strictly follows on from the events shown in TV #47/48, so Madoka and Kyosuke are definitely being much clearer towards each other. Hikaru's obviously not pleased, but still manages to retain a sense of dignity. I gather it's more anger than abject denial on her front.


[/ QUOTE ]
That would have been easier on Hikaru, but made for a less dramatic movie. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

It still seemed an odd omission to me that they weren't even shown kissing after having gone through all that heartache.

[/ QUOTE ]
I somewhat agree, but I think it was in character for Madoka when she turned away from the kiss and put her head on Kyosuke's shoulder. Kisses seem to be very important to her. She wants their memories etched out one by one, as she once said. I think she didn't want a kiss marking such an unhappy moment. Madoka has always wanted kisses between them to be at special happy romantic moments. There was too much pain surrounding these events for Madoka's ideal kiss.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
If the two hadn't continued to hide their feelings from Hikaru, they probably could have just let Hikaru see them together romantically. The combination of their hiding things from Hikaru, and Hikaru pushing it to crisis point, made it the catastrophe it turned out to be. Madoka paid the price for her inability to deal with the issue. As could be seen from early on, the longer they deceived Hikaru, the worse it was for everyone.

[/ QUOTE ]

What Madoka wanted to avoid, &amp; did on the whole, was giving Hikaru the impression that she (Madoka) &amp; Kyosuke were conspiring together against/to exclude Hikaru. Kyosuke grew on Madoka anyway, so its true. There was no suddeness to Madoka's fancying Kyosuke. Madoka's committment to a full-time relationship was never certain to anyone until eps.47 &amp; 48.

Obviously she was increasingly fond of Kyosuke, &amp; appeared to be his proper girlfriend-designate to astute adults, but as Madoka was uncertain exactly how she felt herself, &amp; if Hikaru was tuned to anyone's feelings, it was Madoka's, Hikaru could be forgiven for thinking Madoka was only being friendly, rather than passionate.

Madoka's confession of sudden strong jealousy is also awry with the TV episodes emotional progression IMO. Since at least the how-do-you-feel Kazuya episode, she had been experiencing jealousy &amp; a growing resentment of Hikaru's intrusion into what she hoped would be private twosome times with Kyosuke.

Movie 1 Madoka is more like an 80s Adachi Mitsuru love triangle girl. Passionate but softer &amp; more vulnerable. Movie 1 Hikaru is more 90s+ being assertive, determined &amp; reacting strongly &amp; emotionally.

This is an excerpt from an interview with the director Mochizuki
Tomomichi (taken from the movie pamphlet) regarding what he had in mind when he made KOR: I Want To Return To That Day.

Q: Interviewer
A: Mochizuki Tomomichi

Q: Unlike in TV and manga, it seems that you put more emphasis on Hikaru than on Madoka. Did you make any changes to characters compared to the manga and TV because it's a theatrical release?

A: I used characters just as in the manga and I didn't make any changes.
Only difference is that I put more emphasis on Hikaru when compared to the manga and TV, since she's the one who's being totally rejected. I considered what will happen at this kind of stage. I believe even they have to be serious in this situation. In the manga, it ends with Hikaru slapping Kyosuke just once but I tried to make that more realistic in this movie.

Q: I believe you had lots of requests from manga fans to continue the triangle.

A: Well, I guess the movie might be too cruel to manga fans. But at the same time, the longer the relationship continues, the more Hikaru will get hurt in the end. I didn't mean to be cruel to Hikaru. In the manga, that kind of half-way relationship continued for 4 years but although this is a manga, I don't think they can stay that way forever. The movie started from the idea "What will happen if they put an END to the triangle" and it turned out to be a story that's very likely to happen in the real world.

Q: Was there something that you had in mind when you made this movie?

A: Since this is a triangle, I think that all three of them should be
hurt. I tried to make a story that makes sense from the realistic point of view.

Q: What are your "ideals" and how did they effect the movie?

A: I discarded ideal elements. I paid attention to make the movie more realistic.

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
Somehow, I always thought that Kyosuke and Madoka dealing with Hikaru separately seemed a bit off to me. I don't think there's any scenario in which Hikaru would have taken things much better, but perhaps if she'd seen Kyosuke and Madoka together not long after Kyosuke first confesses to her, she might have come to her senses more quickly.

[/ QUOTE ]
While I agree that it might have been good for both of them tell Hikaru about their relationship, it would not really have worked in this situation. As Madoka made it clear when Kyosuke came over to her place after the phone call, it was not about Hikaru, but it was about Kyosuke's feelings. That is to say that Kyosuke needs to make his feelings clear. He's made it clear to Madoka, now he needs to make it clear to Hikaru. That's what he tried to do. Madoka would have been out of place in the conversation.

Hikaru didn't handle it too well, but imagine how bad it might have been if both Kyosuke and Madoka had told her at once. At least this way, it gave her a little time to get used to it, when if it was so very certain right up front, then Hikaru might have done something bad, maybe even hurt herself...

As it is, I think that Hikaru took it about as good as she could, and the other two did what they could to lessen the blow, but there was only so much that can be done.

[ QUOTE ]
It still seemed an odd omission to me that they weren't even shown kissing after having gone through all that heartache.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it's a Japanese thing. Public displays of affection are frowned upon in Japan, or at least from what I have gathered. There is not a lot of physical intimacy between two people in love. Try not to judge KOR by today's western standards, but those from '80s Japan.

-TC

[philnicau]

[ QUOTE ]

How does the manga handle it?

I believe Hikaru figures it out after she's told that Kyosuke only has his heart for someone who wore a certain red hat.
Who told her, Kurumi, Manami, Master?

[/ QUOTE ]

Minami tells Hikaru, that the Red Hat is Kyosuke most prized possesion, which Hikaru's known used to belong to Madoka (and was her most important possesion).

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
What Madoka wanted to avoid, &amp; did on the whole, was giving Hikaru the impression that she (Madoka) &amp; Kyosuke were conspiring together against/to exclude Hikaru.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think so. What Madoka wanted to avoid was Hikaru knowing that she was interested in Kyosuke. Hikaru's happiness was based on her feeling that she had a good chance with Kyosuke. Madoka insisted on hiding any indication that she and Kyosuke were being more than platonic. On the surface, she seemed to do that. How much Hikaru knew of Madoka's feelings is never said.

Madoka wasn't worried about the appearance of a conspiracy, she was worried about the appearance of a romance.

[ QUOTE ]
Kyosuke grew on Madoka anyway, so its true. There was no suddeness to Madoka's fancying Kyosuke. Madoka's committment to a full-time relationship was never certain to anyone until eps.47 &amp; 48.


[/ QUOTE ]
That is hard to say. In one sense, she had been in love with him since she was 10. On the other hand, Madoka rarely revealed her emotions, and perhaps didn't acknowledge them to herself either. There are some very early signs of her commitment to Kyosuke. Letting him keep the red hat had to have considerable meaning. From the TV one can deduce that it was a cherished item to her. If you include the manga, it was her most cherished item.

After the cigarette incident, Madoka gives up smoking, and she is thinking of Kyosuke when she does so.

As things go along, there are numerous indicators to Madoka's hidden feelings. In the instances where Madoka seems to be giving way to Hikaru's desires, she is doing so in spite of her own feelings. She is letting Hikaru have something treasured (as in the metaphorical four-leaf-clover).

[ QUOTE ]

Obviously she was increasingly fond of Kyosuke, &amp; appeared to be his proper girlfriend-designate to astute adults, but as Madoka was uncertain exactly how she felt herself, &amp; if Hikaru was tuned to anyone's feelings, it was Madoka's, Hikaru could be forgiven for thinking Madoka was only being friendly, rather than passionate.


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think Hikaru was tuned to anyone's feelings but her own. Her denial pushed anyone's feelings aside if they didn't comply with her desires. Her treatment of Yuusaku throughout the TV series is meant to show us her lack of empathy.

[ QUOTE ]

Madoka's confession of sudden strong jealousy is also awry with the TV episodes emotional progression IMO. Since at least the how-do-you-feel Kazuya episode, she had been experiencing jealousy &amp; a growing resentment of Hikaru's intrusion into what she hoped would be private twosome times with Kyosuke.


[/ QUOTE ]
No, what she said about her jealousy seemed quite in character. She said she had been telling herself that it didn't matter to her that Kyosuke &amp; Hikaru were getting along so well. That she had to be telling herself anything about it was an indicator that it was bothering her. She was admitting that she had been in denial about her feelings. The kiss just pushed it to a point where she could no longer deny her jealousy. It wasn't that she was suddenly jealous. It was that she could no longer bear it.

[ QUOTE ]

Movie 1 Madoka is more like an 80s Adachi Mitsuru love triangle girl. Passionate but softer &amp; more vulnerable. Movie 1 Hikaru is more 90s+ being assertive, determined &amp; reacting strongly &amp; emotionally.


[/ QUOTE ]
In Movie 1 we see two sides of Madoka. We see the mother hen trying to insure that Kyosuke gets into college with her, and we see the private/hidden Madoka who is lonely, and insecure. We saw hints of the vulnerable side in the TV series. After Hikaru's attempt to look grown-up backfires, Master and Madoka are alone in Abcb. Master tells Madoka she doesn't have to make such an effort to look great. She has a moment of sadness and shows that she doesn't believe him. It was a brief moment, but an important insight into how she really feels.

There is a moment where Kyosuke learns how lonely Madoka feels. Kyosuke gets the insight when she describes how Jingoro must feel being home alone all day. This is in the episode where Jingoro is trying to find his mother.

Hikaru's stalking reaction followed perfectly from her obsessive personality. I found it to be very realistic because I knew a woman who acted very much like Hikaru did in similar circumstances.

[ QUOTE ]

This is an excerpt from an interview with the director Mochizuki
Tomomichi (taken from the movie pamphlet) regarding what he had in mind when he made KOR: I Want To Return To That Day.


[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks very much for posting that. Most interesting. I think the director succeeded in acomplishing his goals. What he says is how I saw the film. He wanted to resolve what was left unresolved by the triangle, and he wanted to do it realistically. I think he succeeded quite well.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
philip said:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

How does the manga handle it?


[/ QUOTE ]
I believe Hikaru figures it out after she's told that Kyosuke only has his heart for someone who wore a certain red hat.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who told her, Kurumi, Manami, Master?

[/ QUOTE ]

Minami tells Hikaru, that the Red Hat is Kyosuke most prized possesion, which Hikaru's known used to belong to Madoka (and was her most important possesion).

[/ QUOTE ]
Cool. I assume, like the TV, Manami doesn't really know where the hat came from? So, she isn't intentionally giving away Kyosuke's secret.

Having Hikaru discover Kyosuke's feelings on her own would bring up different emotions in her. She would be angry at being deceived, without the much more crushing experience of being rejected. A much more humane way to resolve the triange. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[Bumble]

[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
While I agree that it might have been good for both of them tell Hikaru about their relationship, it would not really have worked in this situation. As Madoka made it clear when Kyosuke came over to her place after the phone call, it was not about Hikaru, but it was about Kyosuke's feelings. That is to say that Kyosuke needs to make his feelings clear. He's made it clear to Madoka, now he needs to make it clear to Hikaru. That's what he tried to do. Madoka would have been out of place in the conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the initial conversation, yes, but I'm thinking about afterwards, when Hikaru clearly wasn't giving up her pursuit of Kyosuke easily.

[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
I think it's a Japanese thing. Public displays of affection are frowned upon in Japan, or at least from what I have gathered. There is not a lot of physical intimacy between two people in love. Try not to judge KOR by today's western standards, but those from '80s Japan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never expected Kyosuke and Madoka to engage in a passionate clinch in the middle of shopping or anything! Even given the situation with public displays of affection in Japan, Madoka would additionally not be comfortable in such a situation. This would be especially so considering her naturally reserved nature (at least in public) when it comes to emotional feelings like that.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
While I agree that it might have been good for both of them tell Hikaru about their relationship, it would not really have worked in this situation. As Madoka made it clear when Kyosuke came over to her place after the phone call, it was not about Hikaru, but it was about Kyosuke's feelings. That is to say that Kyosuke needs to make his feelings clear. He's made it clear to Madoka, now he needs to make it clear to Hikaru. That's what he tried to do. Madoka would have been out of place in the conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the initial conversation, yes, but I'm thinking about afterwards, when Hikaru clearly wasn't giving up her pursuit of Kyosuke easily.

[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
I think it's a Japanese thing. Public displays of affection are frowned upon in Japan, or at least from what I have gathered. There is not a lot of physical intimacy between two people in love. Try not to judge KOR by today's western standards, but those from '80s Japan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never expected Kyosuke and Madoka to engage in a passionate clinch in the middle of shopping or anything! Even given the situation with public displays of affection in Japan, Madoka would additionally not be comfortable in such a situation. This would be especially so considering her naturally reserved nature (at least in public) when it comes to emotional feelings like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps why Madoka is so taken aback by Kyosuke's displays of affection in ep.48 &amp; again looking out the windows in this movie. Raw expressions of love (as opposed to lust) are alien to her.
(In the big Maison Ikkoku reconciliation scene Godai &amp; Kyoko's verbal head-butting was partly fuelled by booze, Kyoko's rage, &amp; her father's presence, plus Akemi's forthright comments before they left. So third party influence helped.)

AFA Kyosuke's feelings, I think he just likes everyone to be happy. Live &amp; let live. Why he lets Komatsu &amp; Hatta mess him around (I really hated them in movie 1). With Hikaru, apart from trying to keep Madoka pleased, there was also the fear throughout the TV series Hikaru might do something putting herself at risk directly or indirectly, as actually happened a couple times.

In movie 1 Hikaru took no stupid action. Perhaps she felt anything risky would be ignored, or considered too selfish for once. Movie 1 is Hikaru turning from child to young adult. The "Downtown Cats" role gave her another focus to live for &amp; more self-respect. Best post-credits epilogue of any show.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
While I agree that it might have been good for both of them tell Hikaru about their relationship, it would not really have worked in this situation. As Madoka made it clear when Kyosuke came over to her place after the phone call, it was not about Hikaru, but it was about Kyosuke's feelings. That is to say that Kyosuke needs to make his feelings clear. He's made it clear to Madoka, now he needs to make it clear to Hikaru. That's what he tried to do. Madoka would have been out of place in the conversation.

[/ QUOTE ]

In the initial conversation, yes, but I'm thinking about afterwards, when Hikaru clearly wasn't giving up her pursuit of Kyosuke easily.


[/ QUOTE ]
There was a sense that Madoka was chickening out by leaving it all to Kyosuke. However, if she and Kyosuke had displayed their relationship to Hikaru, after Kyosuke dumped Hikaru, it would have seemed spiteful. A kind of, "Na, na, I win, you loose. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif"

[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
I think it's a Japanese thing. Public displays of affection are frowned upon in Japan, or at least from what I have gathered. There is not a lot of physical intimacy between two people in love. Try not to judge KOR by today's western standards, but those from '80s Japan.

[/ QUOTE ]

I never expected Kyosuke and Madoka to engage in a passionate clinch in the middle of shopping or anything! Even given the situation with public displays of affection in Japan, Madoka would additionally not be comfortable in such a situation. This would be especially so considering her naturally reserved nature (at least in public) when it comes to emotional feelings like that.

[/ QUOTE ]
What did you think of my slant on it -- kisses being something Madoka wanted to reserve for positive situations that would make good memories? There is evidence for this in the TV series, especially Madoka's comment about wanting to carve out their memories one by one.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
There was a sense that Madoka was chickening out by leaving it all to Kyosuke. However, if she and Kyosuke had displayed their relationship to Hikaru, after Kyosuke dumped Hikaru, it would have seemed spiteful.

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps Madoka was hoping to speak to Hikaru individually anyway as they have a special relationship. While Hikaru spoke with feeling, &amp; Madoka was cold, there seemed no hatred between them, apart for some bitterness.


2 kisses in SKOR. Each marking a special occassion. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Isuzu Inugami]

I'm going to try posting as I watch the movie again for the first time in years. Please forgive me if I restate what everyone else has said, since I haven't read any of the other comments for fear of, uh, spoiling what I already know happens. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

Black screen, character names, in (as if they're the stars, not the characters), no sound... It's all so ominous. In fact, there's no opening theme!

Black and white screen, as for a flashback, but actually we're in the future, and most of the movie is a flashback... which starts when the color does. We've already been shown Kyo ends up with Madoka, but at this point we really can't put things together enough to understand the significance of that. Unless we've seen the movie before. Ahem.

"Downtown Cats"?! Sounds suspiciously like another wildly successful musical, only without the "Downtown." And Master is impressed with the caliber of show Hikaru is promoting.

Madoka appears, brushes off Hikaru (exam stress?) and unwittingly physically supplants her by taking her seat! Hikaru isn't happy about this, either. Well, that's the movie, guess I can quit now. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

The dancer keep time well, but the choreographer doesn't! Also, nice music transition from the dancing to Kyo and Madoka signing up for cram school.

Manami and Kurumi are dating Hatta and Komatsu? Noooooooo!!! Maybe it's just the writer's way of making a nod to their existence... judging from the twins' attitude, this relationship isn't going far. Phew!

Hikaru is thoughtful at the suggestion of what an unchaperoned Kyo might do, before remembering to laugh at it as a joke.

"Dady Borden" ice cream? Does Kyo really like sweet things, contrary to Japanese sterotypes of men, or is he merely indulging Hikaru?

"newlyweds?" "cooking for you?" Hikaru is kind of pushing the envelope, isn't she?

Wada Kanako's CD!!? Bwahahahaha!!
...but can Wada be happy Kyo offers to copy it?

...and the kiss, slid into so smoothly you hardly realize what's happening. But it's held for a long time...

...and cut to Madoka, being stood up! Unbelievable! And boy is she pissed when Kyo comes in late. I've never seen her this coldly angry. Seems Hikaru has told her about the kiss. "Hikaru seems so happy. Nice going." Icy sarcasm, but her body language throughout is of deep pain. He tells her nothing went on, but she, who has given him the benefit of the doubt countless times so far, has reached her limit. Well, that could have gone better... well, no, there was no way that could have gone well, actually.

Hikaru catches Kyo up at the fast food joint, but he's distracted and out of it, because of his studies, she thinks. She's knitting something (for him, I expect.) "We can all go to the festival together next year," she says, and Kyo changes the subject. She sends him a happy little kiss across the table. Oh God, the poor girl!

"Orange Net" box at Madoka's! And brother-in-law wouldn't dare flirt with other women while wearing something his wife knit. Hmmm....

...aaand, Hikaru is really lovey-dovey now. Is that another kiss as the train rolls by?! Holy shit, I think it is!!

And that night Madoka is alone. Madoka is studying. Madoka can't study. Madoka is restless. Madoka is phoning...not phoning. Madoka is losing it. /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

JINGORO EYE-CATCH! (sort of)

Comic(?) interlude with Komatsu and Hatta pawing through Kyo's smut! These guys are annoying. They suggest Hikaru was an easy catch (implying what about Madoka? That she's beyond him? That she's too much effort?) and force Kyo to admit to having ecchi thoughts about her. My oh my!

Ha! Are cram school teachers really that concerned for students who don't show up? He's put "one" and "one" together in realizing Kyo knows her well enough to give her notes, but he hasn't come up with the "two" that she's skipping because of Kyo.

Hikaru goes to Madoka for help knitting, bearing oranges. "Food is always best eaten fresh," she says. Hmmm, what is that supposed to imply? Hikaru is disturbed by Kyo's picture in Madoka's room--comes back competitively saying she needs to finish kitting for his birthday, November 15th. (I imagine her thinking "Do you even know who's birthday that is, beeyotch?") Is she still feeling Madoka as a threat because of the picture? Is she rubbing Madoka's nose in her current situation? Telling her to stay away?

But their conversation along the river isn't mean. Madoka is sad underneath. How much of what's going on can Hikaru see? Also [beware: plot point!] it seems Kyo isn't up to going to the festival with Hikaru.

[We now pause for a musical interlude--in which everything happens!]

... oh wow. The phone call. On my old VHS, I remember Ayukawa being almost inaudible, lost in the tape hiss, but it sounds okay on DVD. Everything comes pouring out. This is wrenching and beautiful stuff. Madoka always took his feelings for granted... she is such an enigma through the TV and OAV series--I mean, we infer fairly clearly that she likes him, but this is the first time she's put it into words (oh, except for episode 48, which now presents some problems for continuity. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif) Kyo comes running, and power-slides to a stop! I love the image of Madoka waiting, flicking the lights on and off.

But they don't kiss. It's not really Hikaru, it's Kyo's feelings that are the problem. Because he isn't clear about them? She's not telling him to break up with Hikaru, she's telling him to make a decision. Although, at this point the decision seems obvious. (Well, I kind of think it always did.)

Oh, poor Hikaru, knitting for Kyo. Her phone call isn't going to turn out so well, is it.

Nope. She's so cute when she blows her bangs up. Then goes into denial--no, she's trying to shut him up! And then when Kyo finally manages to get out that he loves Madoka, she winces, sighs and looks off like she expected it. No suprise at all. She knows what she's been fighting all along, but she thought she won. "Why am I not good enough?" (I could count the ways--no, she deserves better than that. heh. I do feel bad for her. It isn't fair, it's just love.)

Poor Hikaru. In drama practice she gets caught on lines that echo her situation too much. She puts up a brave front, but it's tearing her up. That conversation from the phone booth is downright grim.

Tsk tsk, Madoka is passing notes in class!

Hikaru phones, ends up crying... her stuffed bear has the yarn from Kyo's scarf(?) wrapped around it--what happened there? Manami knows something is going on, but how much? This is tearing Kyo up too.

Hikaru waits for Kyo at the top of the steps, where he met Madoka. One relationship began there, another draws to a close. "Don't ignore me!" Poor Hikaru. Kyo won't budge, so she goes to Madoka! I don't know what she hopes to accomplish... she does get maybe her best speech in the film though!

Well, that was a bad choice of films for Kyo and Madoka to go to. Is the Kazuya in it supposed to be an older Kazuya? /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif Anyway, the sloppy sentimentality of that film ("the three of us will be together always!") stands in brutal contrast to the stark honesty of this film. Which is what I admire about this film.

Heh. Kyo and Madoka are 37!

...and the obligatory Ushiko/Umao appearance... only it seems Ushiko has left Umao! Okay, I could handle everything else, but now this film is just too depressing! Also, their child is Shikao. Shika = deer. For what that's worth.

Hikaru is determined to try once more, since she got the part. She's at the breaking point, and it shows. "I probably won't go to the play," Kyo says. That's... too harsh, I think. He can't encourage her, but that.... She asks "What was I to you?" and after that, I think she deserves an answer. Oh man, poor Hikaru. I keep saying that, don't I.

Time for another musical interlude, where Wada Kanako tries to make us feel as bad as everyone else in the film.

"Sayonara, Hikaru-chan" /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif


"Kyo was out all night with Hikaru" is the story. Kyo explains what happened. Kyo's feelings were the issue, or problem, back when Madoka first confessed, but now Madoka asks Kyo to let her believe in his feelings for her. awwww....

...and back to the monochrome present. Hikaru's play is starting... will they go see it? We don't find out. We do get a brief memory of the three of them going through a photo album and having fun, to drive home what has ended, then back to the almost anticlimactic revelation that they passed the entrance exams, and let the credits roll.

...and at the very end, Hikaru's "Bang!" A promise that she will be all right, a moment of grace without which the film would be unbearable.

I love this film, but boy is it hard on you!

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
I'm going to try posting as I watch the movie again for the first time in years. Please forgive me if I restate what everyone else has said, since I haven't read any of the other comments for fear of, uh, spoiling what I already know happens. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
Good observations. I hope you will now go through and comment on what others have said.

[ QUOTE ]

Madoka appears, brushes off Hikaru (exam stress?) and unwittingly physically supplants her by taking her seat! Hikaru isn't happy about this, either. Well, that's the movie, guess I can quit now. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[...snip...]

"newlyweds?" "cooking for you?" Hikaru is kind of pushing the envelope, isn't she?


[/ QUOTE ]
The competitiveness you saw in Abcb is, IMO, why Hikaru pushes things. She is feeling the need to tighten her grip on Kyosuke before he moves on to college -- leaving her behind.

[ QUOTE ]

...and the kiss, slid into so smoothly you hardly realize what's happening. But it's held for a long time...


[/ QUOTE ]
I think Kyosuke didn't realize until it happened.

[ QUOTE ]

And brother-in-law wouldn't dare flirt with other women while wearing something his wife knit. Hmmm....


[/ QUOTE ]
Just a little aside to show that Ayukawa women worry about their men being faithful.

[ QUOTE ]

Ha! Are cram school teachers really that concerned for students who don't show up? He's put "one" and "one" together in realizing Kyo knows her well enough to give her notes, but he hasn't come up with the "two" that she's skipping because of Kyo.


[/ QUOTE ]
He knows that they both went to the same high school. Probably has that on a list. The surprising part is that he can match Kyosuke's face with the name. For what appears to be a large lecture mill, surprising that the teacher knows his students. Perhaps it is different in Japan.

[ QUOTE ]

Hikaru goes to Madoka for help knitting, bearing oranges. "Food is always best eaten fresh," she says. Hmmm, what is that supposed to imply?

[/ QUOTE ]
I just took it to be Hikaru complaining about her selfish mother who hoards food, rather than sharing it.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru is disturbed by Kyo's picture in Madoka's room--comes back competitively saying she needs to finish kitting for his birthday, November 15th. (I imagine her thinking "Do you even know who's birthday that is, beeyotch?") Is she still feeling Madoka as a threat because of the picture? Is she rubbing Madoka's nose in her current situation? Telling her to stay away?


[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely some competition there. They both feel threatened by the other and Hikaru is being a /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif about it. Madoka is keeping up a civil pretense -- not being at all honest about her feelings. Or, maybe she feels it is entirely up to Kyosuke, and doesn't blame Hikaru at all.

[ QUOTE ]

But their conversation along the river isn't mean. Madoka is sad underneath. How much of what's going on can Hikaru see? Also it seems Kyo isn't up to going to the festival with Hikaru.


[/ QUOTE ]
Hikaru probably thinks she is winning. She thinks Kyosuke isn't going to the festival because he is studying.

[ QUOTE ]

[We now pause for a musical interlude--in which everything happens!]

... oh wow. The phone call. On my old VHS, I remember Ayukawa being almost inaudible, lost in the tape hiss, but it sounds okay on DVD. Everything comes pouring out. This is wrenching and beautiful stuff. Madoka always took his feelings for granted... she is such an enigma through the TV and OAV series--I mean, we infer fairly clearly that she likes him, but this is the first time she's put it into words (oh, except for episode 48, which now presents some problems for continuity. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif) Kyo comes running, and power-slides to a stop! I love the image of Madoka waiting, flicking the lights on and off.


[/ QUOTE ]
First time we see Madoka really break down and expose her feelings, I think. The light switch thing seemed exactly right. I think I might have done that once.

[ QUOTE ]

"Why am I not good enough?" (I could count the ways--no, she deserves better than that. heh. I do feel bad for her. It isn't fair, it's just love.)


[/ QUOTE ]
Haven't you ever heard that line? Did you know how to answer? I didn't.

[ QUOTE ]

Manami knows something is going on, but how much? This is tearing Kyo up too.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think Manami and Kurumi were rooting for Hikaru, who is a closer friend to them than the older Madoka.

[ QUOTE ]

Hikaru waits for Kyo at the top of the steps, where he met Madoka. One relationship began there, another draws to a close. "Don't ignore me!" Poor Hikaru. Kyo won't budge, so she goes to Madoka! I don't know what she hopes to accomplish... she does get maybe her best speech in the film though!


[/ QUOTE ]
I think she is venting. Madoka has always pampered her and supported her. Now, Madoka has taken the thing most important to her. At some emotional level she may feel betrayed.

[ QUOTE ]

Well, that was a bad choice of films for Kyo and Madoka to go to. Is the Kazuya in it supposed to be an older Kazuya? /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif Anyway, the sloppy sentimentality of that film ("the three of us will be together always!") stands in brutal contrast to the stark honesty of this film. Which is what I admire about this film.


[/ QUOTE ]
That [b]was ironic. Their last chance to take a break from studying and the Hikaru situation is thrown at them. To make them feel even worse, it has a happy ending. Not much of an escape. Interesting that the don't talk about it.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
I'm going to try posting as I watch the movie again for the first time in years. Please forgive me if I restate what everyone else has said, since I haven't read any of the other comments for fear of, uh, spoiling what I already know happens. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I did that. Needed another viewing after to take it all in. Then another for particularly powerful scenes.

[ QUOTE ]
Black screen, character names, in (as if they're the stars, not the characters), no sound... It's all so ominous. In fact, there's no opening theme!

[/ QUOTE ]

I was impressed with that. Madoka...Kyosuke...Hikaru. Knowing what to expect even, it has a serious tone. Serios from the first second.

[ QUOTE ]
Black and white screen, as for a flashback, but actually we're in the future, and most of the movie is a flashback...

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always maintained the whole KOR anime is one big flashback recalled from (now) presumably twentysomething family man-with-Madoka-&amp;-Kids Kyosuke.

[ QUOTE ]
"Downtown Cats"?! Sounds suspiciously like another wildly successful musical, only without the "Downtown." And Master is impressed with the caliber of show Hikaru is promoting.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bearing in mind the movie is late 80s, "Cats" was well into its peak, but still a fresh hit to many. So any association is more exciting to the KOR crowd then, than to us now. Hikaru sees herself as Elaine Page? I thought her bitterness at feeling rejected probably helped her performance as the outcast "hooker".

[ QUOTE ]
Madoka appears, brushes off Hikaru (exam stress?) and unwittingly physically supplants her by taking her seat! Hikaru isn't happy about this, either. Well, that's the movie, guess I can quit now. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Was almost "run along &amp; play now" dismissal. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[ QUOTE ]
The dancer keep time well, but the choreographer doesn't! Also, nice music transition from the dancing to Kyo and Madoka signing up for cram school.

[/ QUOTE ]

The seamless switching &amp; pacing is good throughout. I like the Jingoro chapter changes. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Manami and Kurumi are dating Hatta and Komatsu? Noooooooo!!! Maybe it's just the writer's way of making a nod to their existence... judging from the twins' attitude, this relationship isn't going far. Phew!

[/ QUOTE ]

AS usual the twins are just using the boys for entertainment &amp; free food I expect /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru is thoughtful at the suggestion of what an unchaperoned Kyo might do, before remembering to laugh at it as a joke.

[/ QUOTE ]

That laugh always makes me cringe.

[ QUOTE ]
"Dady Borden" ice cream? Does Kyo really like sweet things, contrary to Japanese sterotypes of men, or is he merely indulging Hikaru?

"newlyweds?" "cooking for you?" Hikaru is kind of pushing the envelope, isn't she?

[/ QUOTE ]

Never seen that ice cream. Is it a prestige brand like Haagan Daaz?
Hikaru can't compete with the intellectual support Madoka is giving Kyosuke, but senses he could do with some TLC on the emotional side, &amp; she gets to play house for him, hoping to make inroads...

[ QUOTE ]
Wada Kanako's CD!!? Bwahahahaha!!
...but can Wada be happy Kyo offers to copy it?

[/ QUOTE ]

KOR probably got her more royalties. Think of it as product placement /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]
...and the kiss, slid into so smoothly you hardly realize what's happening. But it's held for a long time...

[/ QUOTE ]

Had Madoka known how good &amp; comforting it was for Kyosuke, she would have been a great deal more pissed/worried/upset (unless Hikaru maybe told her, possibly embellishing. At this stage Kyosuke is still seemingly capable of switching despite all that has gone before.

[ QUOTE ]
...and cut to Madoka, being stood up! Unbelievable! And boy is she pissed when Kyo comes in late. I've never seen her this coldly angry.

[/ QUOTE ]

His tardiness rubbed salt into her emotional wound IMO, &amp; why she didn't wait longer. Perhaps she thought she was being stood up as well. Also its likely Madoka wanted to discuss what happened before class began. Had Kyosuke met her earlier, that might have helped.

[ QUOTE ]
Seems Hikaru has told her about the kiss. "Hikaru seems so happy. Nice going." Icy sarcasm, but her body language throughout is of deep pain. He tells her nothing went on, but she, who has given him the benefit of the doubt countless times so far, has reached her limit. Well, that could have gone better... well, no, there was no way that could have gone well, actually.

[/ QUOTE ]

No doubt its eating her up, but I'm not sure if Madoka is being more ironic than sarcastic. Remembering she encouraged making nice to Hikaru for so long. Madoka's soft but bitter "liar" &amp; turning away affects the audience more than it does baka Kyosuke who doesn't understand what the big deal is really.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru catches Kyo up at the fast food joint, but he's distracted and out of it, because of his studies, she thinks. She's knitting something (for him, I expect.) "We can all go to the festival together next year," she says, and Kyo changes the subject. She sends him a happy little kiss across the table. Oh God, the poor girl!

[/ QUOTE ]

And Kyosuke really needs to be alone, especially not with Hikaru! Something as bad as his worst foreboding has just happened &amp; he needs to think it through &amp; consider what to do. Hikaru here has reverted to junior schoolgirl, &amp; the age difference between her &amp; Madoka who's semi-adult seems wide.

[ QUOTE ]
"Orange Net" box at Madoka's! And brother-in-law wouldn't dare flirt with other women while wearing something his wife knit. Hmmm....

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure the mentioning of her sister's husband flirting with other women was another jab for Madoka thinking about Kyosuke flirting. Also the knitting by a woman for her man must have made her think of Hikaru's knitting.

[ QUOTE ]
And that night Madoka is alone. Madoka is studying. Madoka can't study. Madoka is restless. Madoka is phoning...not phoning. Madoka is losing it. /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The bit where she sits on her bed cross legged, looking lost, &amp; then almost cries while the camra zooms in on her face is most moving...and we're just left there to&gt;

JINGORO EYE-CATCH! (sort of)

[ QUOTE ]
Comic(?) interlude with Komatsu and Hatta pawing through Kyo's smut! These guys are annoying. They suggest Hikaru was an easy catch (implying what about Madoka? That she's beyond him? That she's too much effort?) and force Kyo to admit to having ecchi thoughts about her. My oh my!

[/ QUOTE ]

Unoriginal &amp; infuriating. Why have them in the movie at all if Yuusaku &amp; Kazuya are not? The scene has no place in this movie IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
Ha! Are cram school teachers really that concerned for students who don't show up? He's put "one" and "one" together in realizing Kyo knows her well enough to give her notes, but he hasn't come up with the "two" that she's skipping because of Kyo.

[/ QUOTE ]

Another adult who can clearly see M &amp; K as a couple, &amp; senses/knows from experience what's going on. Interesting metaphor he uses to console Kyosuke though, war - of the sexes, maybe.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru goes to Madoka for help knitting, bearing oranges. "Food is always best eaten fresh," she says. Hmmm, what is that supposed to imply?

[/ QUOTE ]

Perhaps that Madoka has had "fresher" i.e. newer/hotter chances, &amp; passed on them. Hikaru might think Madoka's positive reaching for Kyosuke now, rather than Madoka's usual more tacit approach is too tardy.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru is disturbed by Kyo's picture in Madoka's room--comes back competitively saying she needs to finish kitting for his birthday, November 15th.
Is she still feeling Madoka as a threat because of the picture? Is she rubbing Madoka's nose in her current situation? Telling her to stay away?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hikaru moves from yellow to red alert! This is her first open tactic of her escalated campaign.

[ QUOTE ]
But their conversation along the river isn't mean. Madoka is sad underneath. How much of what's going on can Hikaru see? Also it seems Kyo isn't up to going to the festival with Hikaru.

[/ QUOTE ]

Just think how different the situation might have been if Hikaru had not got her father (first mention of her father?) to cough up for a new yukata for the festival. Hikaru would then have stayed with Kyosuke. THIS is the situation which might have undone all Hikaru's work. At the very time she needs to be with Kyosuke, she is unescapedly absent. Madoka &amp; Kyosuke are both alone, but accessible to each other... faux pas Hikaru! High cost of your vanity.

[ QUOTE ]
... oh wow. The phone call. On my old VHS, I remember Ayukawa being almost inaudible, lost in the tape hiss, but it sounds okay on DVD. Everything comes pouring out. This is wrenching and beautiful stuff. Madoka always took his feelings for granted... she is such an enigma through the TV and OAV series--I mean, we infer fairly clearly that she likes him, but this is the first time she's put it into words (oh, except for episode 48, which now presents some problems for continuity. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif) Kyo comes running, and power-slides to a stop! I love the image of Madoka waiting, flicking the lights on and off.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its Casablanca stuff for charged atmosphere! Like Rick &amp; Ilsa(?) meeting "again", only in very different circumstances than ever before. *ahem* When I got my KOR LDs the sound, especially low volume was much better than VHS (also no "Madoka" in the subtitles!)

Madoka's tone of voice &amp; demeanour is weird. Subdued, half tearful half whispered, yet (to me) flattish. It also seems a bit detached, possibly its contrived, to have maximum effect on Kyosuke.

Madoka opens her yukata drawer, closes it, calls Kyosuke, then while he's on the way, puts it on again &amp; starts flashing her house lights on &amp; off. She seems to be staging an imitation of the carnival outside. Again it could be to have a psychological effect on Kyosuke &amp; heighten his anxiety. He would see the lights in the house go on &amp; off up the road as he approached, &amp; get freaked. Then she almost falls onto his shoulder when he embraces her. Its a similar action to her feigned faint in that episode when she knew he was coming, asuming she was going to America.

[ QUOTE ]
But they don't kiss. It's not really Hikaru, it's Kyo's feelings that are the problem. Because he isn't clear about them? She's not telling him to break up with Hikaru, she's telling him to make a decision. Although, at this point the decision seems obvious. (Well, I kind of think it always did.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Madoka's kisses are rewards, not "I need you, you need me" gestures. He gotta earn them! The refused kiss is a classic female manipulation device for softening guys up. Movies &amp; real life!

[ QUOTE ]
Oh, poor Hikaru, knitting for Kyo. Her phone call isn't going to turn out so well, is it.

Nope. She's so cute when she blows her bangs up. Then goes into denial--no, she's trying to shut him up! And then when Kyo finally manages to get out that he loves Madoka, she winces, sighs and looks off like she expected it. No suprise at all. She knows what she's been fighting all along, but she thought she won. "Why am I not good enough?" (I could count the ways--no, she deserves better than that. heh. I do feel bad for her. It isn't fair, it's just love.)

[/ QUOTE ]

"Plan B" to "Plan C". And Hikaru's true desperation is setting in.
Kyosuke is polite &amp; gentle, this first time. He must be feeling sick. He desperately needs Madoka, he really likes Hikaru. Its because its Hikaru, and what he's avoided having to do in the past that hurts. He needs an emotional laxative, a drink would be welcome here.

[ QUOTE ]
Poor Hikaru. In drama practice she gets caught on lines that echo her situation too much. She puts up a brave front, but it's tearing her up. That conversation from the phone booth is downright grim.

[/ QUOTE ]

...its where the LD changes sides /images/graemlins/depresse.gif
I began really feeling for Hikaru at this point as she became victim, and Kyosuke &amp; Madoka villains. Madoka has the prize, Hikaru now realises she has an uphill struggle to try &amp; get Kyosuke back. Full emotional war.

[ QUOTE ]
Tsk tsk, Madoka is passing notes in class!

[/ QUOTE ]

She knows the subject already! The notes are a bit impersonal IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru phones, ends up crying... her stuffed bear has the yarn from Kyo's scarf(?) wrapped around it--what happened there? Manami knows something is going on, but how much? This is tearing Kyo up too.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think she has guessed. Also seeing Hikaru, normally so cool, forget her lines at the auditions. BTW Hikaru's shoe flinging in the changing room really showed her exasperation at everything as much as crumpling up in the phone booth. Hikaru realises the Kyosuke situation is threatening her future now too. Time for more action!

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru waits for Kyo at the top of the steps, where he met Madoka. One relationship began there, another draws to a close. "Don't ignore me!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Most powerful scene in this movie. Period. Hikaru's expression &amp; close-to-breakdown emotion are hair-raising in intensity. Its just about rejection &amp; loss now. Raw emotion excellently voice acted. Only Kiminozo comes close to this.

[ QUOTE ]
Poor Hikaru. Kyo won't budge, so she goes to Madoka! I don't know what she hopes to accomplish... she does get maybe her best speech in the film though!

[/ QUOTE ]

Madoka is out-acted &amp; out-charactered. What she says is almost irrelevant anyway, as its the obvious. At least she says "sorry" (that Hikaru is suffering).

[ QUOTE ]
Well, that was a bad choice of films for Kyo and Madoka to go to. Is the Kazuya in it supposed to be an older Kazuya? /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif Anyway, the sloppy sentimentality of that film ("the three of us will be together always!") stands in brutal contrast to the stark honesty of this film. Which is what I admire about this film.

[/ QUOTE ]

Man, I [b]so want Touch licensed for R1. TV, movies, specials. And the manga. It is a bit masochistic in the circs. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Heh. Kyo and Madoka are 37!

[/ QUOTE ]

Middle aged &amp; probably parents of several ESPers now. Jingoro may be a parent too. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
...and the obligatory Ushiko/Umao appearance... only it seems Ushiko has left Umao! Okay, I could handle everything else, but now this film is just too depressing! Also, their child is Shikao. Shika = deer. For what that's worth.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. What did he do, try another phrase? /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru is determined to try once more, since she got the part. She's at the breaking point, and it shows. "I probably won't go to the play," Kyo says. That's... too harsh, I think. He can't encourage her, but that.... She asks "What was I to you?" and after that, I think she deserves an answer. Oh man, poor Hikaru. I keep saying that, don't I.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kyosuke has become numbed &amp; brutalised by the emotional pounding he is receiving &amp; is having to deal out. Also his patience must be worn out.

[ QUOTE ]
Time for another musical interlude, where Wada Kanako tries to make us feel as bad as everyone else in the film.

"Sayonara, Hikaru-chan" /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

There already /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif , but its a good empathic scene. And the best of her 3 songs IMO.

[ QUOTE ]
"Kyo was out all night with Hikaru" is the story. Kyo explains what happened. Kyo's feelings were the issue, or problem, back when Madoka first confessed, but now Madoka asks Kyo to let her believe in his feelings for her. awwww....

[/ QUOTE ]

He needs TLC comfort, but Madoka is prpbably emotionally burned-out as well. Does he really want to return to that day?

[ QUOTE ]
...and back to the monochrome present. Hikaru's play is starting... will they go see it? We don't find out. We do get a brief memory of the three of them going through a photo album and having fun, to drive home what has ended, then back to the almost anticlimactic revelation that they passed the entrance exams, and let the credits roll.

[/ QUOTE ]

Despite all the emotional stress &amp; other distractions, Kyosuke still passed! Either a low pass mark, easy questions, or very good cram school got him in.

[ QUOTE ]
...and at the very end, Hikaru's "Bang!" A promise that she will be all right, a moment of grace without which the film would be unbearable.

I love this film, but boy is it hard on you!

[/ QUOTE ]

Yup, that Hikaru moment crowns it. One word &amp; gesture worth many more.
I love this film too. Its needed. But "Summer's Beginning" (movie 2) is better medicine. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
The other Akane episode. I found it enjoyable, but don't have a lot to say about it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Same here. A few things, though:

- I thought Kyosuke's attempt to shield his eyes from Akane's naked body at the start of the episode was laughable. You could still clearly see his eyes between this spread fingers /images/graemlins/happy.gif

- Akane's friends were fun guest characters.

- The pic of Madoka on Akane's bedroom ceiling was a great end to the episode.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
I thought Madoka "got it" but wasn't that bothered. She did call Akane, "hen" as in "hentai" I assume.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even if "hen" is part of "hentai", describing someone as "hen" (odd, strange) is quite different to describing them as "hentai" (perverted). The latter would be much more offensive.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not quite sure why she needed the booze. Perhaps to help her put on the act convincingly. I think she intended a fake bedroom scene from the time of the juice sharing failure.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought part of the reason for the alcohol was to make sure that her friends were sufficiently drunk that they wouldn't question things too much.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
[ QUOTE ]
From Plaid Wolf's post from the last thread:

"In a strange way, Kurumi kinda got what she deserved when they finally returned Kyoske to his real body and he found himself kissing her and not Madoka!


[/ QUOTE ]
Less than she deserved, IMO. Kyosuke should have been the one jumping up and down on her back for putting him in such danger.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kurumi's so violent in this episode. Slapping Kyosuke, and then jumping up and down on his back.

Other thoughts which this episode brought on:

- Madoka and Hikaru must think it really strange that Manami's constantly stopping Kurumi from speaking /images/graemlins/happy.gif

- Why does Takashi form part of the circle to bring Kyosuke's soul back? Takashi has no Power.

- Like Shimauma, I was wondering why Kyosuke didn't just use Power to teleport back to the Green House.

- It was so cruel for Kyosuke's family to whisk him back just as Madoka was about to kiss him in Jingoro's body /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Since there were no calls for a pause, we might as well start the first Kimagure Orange Road movie.

[/ QUOTE ]

That was because I was too busy to even read the thread /images/graemlins/tongue.gif Finally managed to wade through all the posts about the first movie...

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, it was a result of her own doing. She knew how Kyosuke felt about Madoka and she probably knew how Madoka felt, yet she tried to force the situation in her favor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more of the view that Hikaru might have suspected that Kyosuke had feelings for Madoka, but not that she knew. The TV series doesn't give any indication that Hikaru is aware that there's anything between Kyosuke and Madoka. Hikaru says in the movie that she knew, but I think she just didn't want to admit that things had been going on without her knowledge.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru's ukata is black and orange. Kyosuke is wearing a black shirt. Black and orange seem to have some significance in the movie. I'm not sure what the symbolism is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hikaru's headband in this movie is red. A change from the TV series where it's normally Madoka wearing the red. Though the red colour is bordered by white on both sides (the death of a fated relationship?) Madoka's yukata obi is red IIRC, though.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru brings Kyosuke some Dady Borden (http://www.bordenonline.com/) ice cream just before the kiss. I remember Borden from my childhood. I guess they are still operating in Texas. Do they, or did they, have a presence in Japan?

[/ QUOTE ]

Lady Borden (http://www.lotte.co.jp/products/catalogue/ice/05.html) ice cream is sold in Japan under licence to Lotte (actually, it's made and packaged in Australia and exported to Japan - my uncle sometimes buys tubs of Lady Borden from the ice cream factory here, with the Japanese language packaging).

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Its the first time Madoka cries in reality as well (although she has been depressed before, especially in Cat/Fish).

[/ QUOTE ]

Even leaving aside her tears, this is the first time we've seen Madoka so unsettled.

[ QUOTE ]
Move to the knitting needles scene. Madoka realises suddenly Hikaru will see her photos of Kyosuke, which Hikaru does &amp; lets out a little gasp. Perhaps she didn't expect Madoka to have pictures, as she did (in I Was a Cat).

[/ QUOTE ]

To me, the gasp suggests that Hikaru didn't know of the relationship between her two friends.

[ QUOTE ]
Erico Hara's voice acting is superb (&amp; in the KOR movie 1 official booklet given out at cinemas, Erico &amp; the director have the big interviews).

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, her acting was great, though of course in this movie Hara has the most opportunity to show her dramatic abilities.

[ QUOTE ]
Lastly, the flashback photo album scene had photos of Madoka &amp; Hikaru looking younger - say about 4 - 5 years old - than in eps 47-8.

[/ QUOTE ]

The photo album is titled "Sweet memories", the phrase from the 3rd ED "Dance in the Memories" and the subtitle for the Singing Heart^2 CD box set.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Hikaru seemed so loving on the surface, but she actually had little empathy for Kyosuke. She was not at all sensitive to his feelings. She was trying to mold him into what she wanted. Deep down, Hikaru was a very selfish person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though Madoka's behaviour to Kyosuke throughout the series wasn't very considerate to him either. She thought she had his affection (as she admits), yet she was often pushing him to be with Hikaru as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Madoka does get a bit weird at the end of the flashback. Just before they return to the B&amp;W present, she asks if she can believe in him. Then tells him that she wont blame him for being out all night with Hikaru. It is as though she doesn't really believe him, but will pretend to. The really odd line is where she tells him that if she did blame him, he wouldn't have anyone to turn to. What!? Does she mistrust him so much that she thinks he fooled around with Hikaru rather than what he told her about her stalking? If so, he could easily turn back to Hikaru. What was she thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't consider those lines carefully when watching the movie, but I thought what she meant was that:
- she believed in his feelings for her;
- she trusted that if he was with Hikaru that night, he had acted appropriately;
- if she were to reject him (after basically having asked him to reject Hikaru), then he'd be left with no one.

[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
Ah, Movie 1. I only watched this for the first time a few months ago, but plenty of it has already been permanently burned into my mind! First of all, after having watched these characters for 48 episodes and 8 OVAs, I can only describe Movie 1 as one of the most heart-breaking andgut-wrenching productions I've ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is one of the benefits of having a long series. The audience gets so used/attached to the characters and their relationships that when the break up occurs, it affects you more. I think it'd be harder to get the same sort of effect with short 13 episode series nowadays.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
This is an excerpt from an interview with the director Mochizuki
Tomomichi (taken from the movie pamphlet) regarding what he had in mind when he made KOR: I Want To Return To That Day.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for that; interesting /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
Black screen, character names, in (as if they're the stars, not the characters),

[/ QUOTE ]

I liked that start to the movie as well.

[ QUOTE ]
"Dady Borden" ice cream? Does Kyo really like sweet things, contrary to Japanese sterotypes of men, or is he merely indulging Hikaru?

[/ QUOTE ]

Which Japanese stereotype is that? I thought slim bishonen were more popular in Japan than macho men. Hence the characters in yaoi and idols like KimuTaku etc.

[ QUOTE ]
...aaand, Hikaru is really lovey-dovey now. Is that another kiss as the train rolls by?! Holy shit, I think it is!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Did Kyosuke tell Madoka about that kiss? (Probably not, Madoka would have used one of her picks on him.) Did Hikaru tell her?

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru waits for Kyo at the top of the steps, where he met Madoka. One relationship began there, another draws to a close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I noticed that as well. He meets one girl which he'll come to love at those stairs, and he walks away from another girl in tears at those stairs.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
[ QUOTE ]
And that night Madoka is alone. Madoka is studying. Madoka can't study. Madoka is restless. Madoka is phoning...not phoning. Madoka is losing it. /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The bit where she sits on her bed cross legged, looking lost, &amp; then almost cries while the camra zooms in on her face is most moving...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I didn't like that scene. There were a couple of scenes which I thought didn't work out in the movie, and this was one of those scenes. That cut of Madoka crying didn't work for me - didn't really convey a sense of drama. Another scene which I didn't think came off properly was the pan at the Ayukawa household and the zoom in and out focusing on the orange juice carton. The staff were looking for something different, but it didn't work.

On the other hand, there were scenes which I thought were well animated, such as Madoka's turn when she'd been waiting for Kyosuke at the top of the stairs.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Comic(?) interlude with Komatsu and Hatta pawing through Kyo's smut! These guys are annoying. They suggest Hikaru was an easy catch (implying what about Madoka? That she's beyond him? That she's too much effort?) and force Kyo to admit to having ecchi thoughts about her. My oh my!

[/ QUOTE ]

Unoriginal &amp; infuriating. Why have them in the movie at all if Yuusaku &amp; Kazuya are not? The scene has no place in this movie IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. There's little humour in this movie, and most of what there is is provided by Komatsu and Hatta. I don't know if you thought that the scene had no place in the movie because it was more about sex than romantic love, but it does reinforce that Kyosuke has feelings for Hikaru (albeit lust, rather than love). I thought it was realistic as well to acknowledge that Kyosuke is teenager with hormones, and part of the realism that the director was looking for.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru waits for Kyo at the top of the steps, where he met Madoka. One relationship began there, another draws to a close. "Don't ignore me!"

[/ QUOTE ]

Most powerful scene in this movie. Period. Hikaru's expression &amp; close-to-breakdown emotion are hair-raising in intensity. Its just about rejection &amp; loss now. Raw emotion excellently voice acted. Only Kiminozo comes close to this.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's a powerful scene, but the scene when Hikaru confronts Madoka at Abcb is more powerful to me, particularly when Hikaru points to the unfairness that Madoka never had to do anything to attract Kyosuke whereas Hikaru could do anything if it was for him.

Other thoughts and comments:

- What was the significance of the pressed flower that Kyosuke finds in Madoka's notes?

- In the hamburger joint where Hikaru and Kyosuke were eating, there's a poster in the background about a "birthday party corner" which seems to have the Studio Pierrot clown face on it (Studio Pierrot animated the movie).

- No Power in this movie. Though of course no Power was going to save the trio from the position that they now found themselves in (except that Kyosuke could have teleported back to the Kasuga apartment if he didn't want to walk past Hikaru waiting at the bottom of Green House /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

- The lecturer at the seminar sounds like Grandpa.

- When Kyosuke first tells Madoka over the phone that he loves her, he cups his hand over the handset as if there's some conspiracy or as if it's not something he can bring himself to declare or say openly.

- Kyosuke tells Madoka that he loves her. Twice. I don't recall Madoka telling him she loves him (not expressly anyway /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

- The ending song and end credit sequences are probably my favourite in all anime.

- It's nice to have a CAV (and completely creditless) version of the 3rd TV ED at the end of the LD, but I would've preferred the 1st TV ED or the 2nd TV OP.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
To me, the gasp suggests that Hikaru didn't know of the relationship between her two friends.

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
The TV series doesn't give any indication that Hikaru is aware that there's anything between Kyosuke and Madoka.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yes she does. /images/graemlins/happy.gif That dream at the start of the mushroom episode shows the suspicion that's been building up in her subconsious. Hikaru may shrug it off, &amp; Kyosuke might alleviate it, but Hikaru still has it there IMO.

If Madoka had rejected Kyosuke, Hikaru would have moved right back in. And Kyosuke would have been to shattered to stop her. Madoka knows this. I've considered that statement again, &amp; now think its a tease. Kyo &amp; Maddy need each other badly. Rejection would harm them both, Madoka more because she would have nobody to turn to, &amp; would also be denying her destined love, not Kyosuke.

[ QUOTE ]
There's little humour in this movie, and most of what there is is provided by Komatsu and Hatta. I don't know if you thought that the scene had no place in the movie because it was more about sex than romantic love, but it does reinforce that Kyosuke has feelings for Hikaru (albeit lust, rather than love). I thought it was realistic as well to acknowledge that Kyosuke is teenager with hormones, and part of the realism that the director was looking for.


[/ QUOTE ]

We know Kyosuke has feelings for Hikaru from his enjoyment of her kiss &amp; chat at Abcb. Plus the TV series! And that he has hormones etc.

I'm not repelled by the fact there's humour (liked the Umao/Ushiko bit) so much as the crassness of that scene, in a serious movie about sensitivity, especially after seeing the distraught Madoka. Can't remember a single loon scene in Maison Ikkoku that irked me as much...

[ QUOTE ]
the scene when Hikaru confronts Madoka at Abcb is more powerful to me, particularly when Hikaru points to the unfairness that Madoka never had to do anything to attract Kyosuke whereas Hikaru could do anything if it was for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I found it more interesting than powerful. Madoka was expecting a reaction from Hikaru &amp; got it. Hikaru's speech was restrained but loaded with feeling. Madoka looked annoyed, &amp; perhaps its because she thought Hikaru was regarding Kyosuke as a trophy to be enticed &amp; won, rather than an individual free to hame his own choice. Kyosuke's feelings are in Madoka's equation, as much as her own.
What I like about this movie is that it makes me think, &amp; taking sides is not black &amp; white.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
Other thoughts which this episode brought on:

- Madoka and Hikaru must think it really strange that Manami's constantly stopping Kurumi from speaking /images/graemlins/happy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
And Kyosuke doing it to Ojiisan. Seems to be a family trait. Another bit for Madoka to consider with all the clues about Kyosuke's secrets.

[ QUOTE ]

- Why does Takashi form part of the circle to bring Kyosuke's soul back? Takashi has no Power.


[/ QUOTE ]
Seemed like a seance where anyone can contribute.

[ QUOTE ]

- Like Shimauma, I was wondering why Kyosuke didn't just use Power to teleport back to the Green House.


[/ QUOTE ]
As a fish, where would he teleport to? As a cat, why would he want to? There he is alone with Madoka and offers of showering with her. He'd go back eventually, but what's the rush?

[Natsume_Maya]

(I'm not intending to start discussion of the second movie with this thread - since I've been playing catch up the last couple of weeks, I'll leave it up to everyone else when they want to start on the second movie; don't mind me.)

However, I just wanted to point out there was a minor release to whet appetites prior to the Japanese theatrical release of Summer's Beginning - the "Kimagure Orange Road Premium Box". This box (twice the size of a VHS cassette in area) came with a VHS tape of long and short versions of a trailer for the movie and with a Specially Recorded CD(single) 'Madoka Ayukawa Piano Works "Kyosuke No. 1"' containing Madoka's composition "Kyosuke No. 1" with her spoken monologue over the music, described as 'Performed and monologue by Herself Dedicated to Kyosuke Kasuga'. On the cover of the box and the CD single is the same image of Madoka used by ADV Films for the DVD cover.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately, it was a result of her own doing. She knew how Kyosuke felt about Madoka and she probably knew how Madoka felt, yet she tried to force the situation in her favor.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm more of the view that Hikaru might have suspected that Kyosuke had feelings for Madoka, but not that she knew. The TV series doesn't give any indication that Hikaru is aware that there's anything between Kyosuke and Madoka. Hikaru says in the movie that she knew, but I think she just didn't want to admit that things had been going on without her knowledge.


[/ QUOTE ]
As Njr pointed out, the dream in the mushroom episode showed that there was some level of awareness, and it was confirmed when Hikaru discovered them about to kiss. The end of the New Years TV episode shows Hikaru being left behind by Kyosuke chasing Madoka, and Hikaru is a bit upset about it. There was a similar scene in another episode. I think she knew, but her strategy is to pretend it wasn't true. The first scene in Abcb shows some concern about Madoka being with Kyosuke.

After seeing the photo in Madoka's room she is acting competitive, rather than outraged or confused. She knew that Kyosuke liked Madoka. She might not have been so sure Madoka liked Kyosuke. That might have been something of a surprise.

Hikaru's expression, when Kyosuke tells her he loves Madoka, seemed like it was something she expected could happen, but was trying to prevent. I think what she told Madoka was true about her knowing all along.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru's ukata is black and orange. Kyosuke is wearing a black shirt. Black and orange seem to have some significance in the movie. I'm not sure what the symbolism is.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hikaru's headband in this movie is red. A change from the TV series where it's normally Madoka wearing the red. Though the red colour is bordered by white on both sides (the death of a fated relationship?) Madoka's yukata obi is red IIRC, though.


[/ QUOTE ]
Not just the headband. In the fast food place she is wearing a white blouse with a red jumper (I may have my garment terms wrong -- poor knowledgeable about women's garments). This is just after the kiss and before the dump. Hikaru is probably feeling victorious.

Madoka's obi looks like burgundy with gold or yellow trim. Not the fire engine red of the straw hat.

Madoka does wear a red dress several times in the film. One time is at the beginning of the flashback in Abcb. Another is when Hikaru is getting knitting lessons. However, Manami and other characters also wear red. It seems to be a popular color.

Madoka also seems to favor a red, white, and blue color scheme. Probably French patriotism. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

I just thought the orange and black combination seemed unusual.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Move to the knitting needles scene. Madoka realises suddenly Hikaru will see her photos of Kyosuke, which Hikaru does &amp; lets out a little gasp. Perhaps she didn't expect Madoka to have pictures, as she did (in I Was a Cat).

[/ QUOTE ]

To me, the gasp suggests that Hikaru didn't know of the relationship between her two friends.


[/ QUOTE ]
It could mean she didn't know the extent of Madoka's feelings, but still knew about Kyosuke's.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Hikaru seemed so loving on the surface, but she actually had little empathy for Kyosuke. She was not at all sensitive to his feelings. She was trying to mold him into what she wanted. Deep down, Hikaru was a very selfish person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though Madoka's behaviour to Kyosuke throughout the series wasn't very considerate to him either. She thought she had his affection (as she admits), yet she was often pushing him to be with Hikaru as well.


[/ QUOTE ]
It is true that Madoka often gave Kyosuke a hard time, and didn't often reveal her true fellings. However, I think the nature of her affection for him was considerably different than Hikaru's. I think he was more of an object to Hikaru and more of a person to Madoka. Madoka liked him for who he was. Hikaru barely paid attention to who he was or how he felt. She was trying to make him feel the way she wanted him to. Madoka cared about how he really felt.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Madoka does get a bit weird at the end of the flashback. Just before they return to the B&amp;W present, she asks if she can believe in him. Then tells him that she wont blame him for being out all night with Hikaru. It is as though she doesn't really believe him, but will pretend to. The really odd line is where she tells him that if she did blame him, he wouldn't have anyone to turn to. What!? Does she mistrust him so much that she thinks he fooled around with Hikaru rather than what he told her about her stalking? If so, he could easily turn back to Hikaru. What was she thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't consider those lines carefully when watching the movie, but I thought what she meant was that:
- she believed in his feelings for her;
- she trusted that if he was with Hikaru that night, he had acted appropriately;
- if she were to reject him (after basically having asked him to reject Hikaru), then he'd be left with no one.


[/ QUOTE ]
That's what I would have liked her to say. Looking at it carefully, it just leaves me somewhat confused.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
Ah, Movie 1. I only watched this for the first time a few months ago, but plenty of it has already been permanently burned into my mind! First of all, after having watched these characters for 48 episodes and 8 OVAs, I can only describe Movie 1 as one of the most heart-breaking andgut-wrenching productions I've ever seen.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is one of the benefits of having a long series. The audience gets so used/attached to the characters and their relationships that when the break up occurs, it affects you more. I think it'd be harder to get the same sort of effect with short 13 episode series nowadays.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. People complain about Kimagure Orange Road having too much filler -- especially the TV series. I think all those episodes do have benefit.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
...aaand, Hikaru is really lovey-dovey now. Is that another kiss as the train rolls by?! Holy shit, I think it is!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Did Kyosuke tell Madoka about that kiss? (Probably not, Madoka would have used one of her picks on him.) Did Hikaru tell her?


[/ QUOTE ]
I never noticed that there might be a kiss there. I can't really tell if it is or just her leaning on him for a moment. Seems to be intentionally left ambiguous.

I did notice Kyosuke gripping the fence in anticipation of something undesirable coming. If there was a kiss, it seems that Kyosuke is so passive he would let her kiss him in spite of what happened with Madoka. Madoka really did need to lay it out for him with that tearful phone call.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru waits for Kyo at the top of the steps, where he met Madoka. One relationship began there, another draws to a close.

[/ QUOTE ]

I noticed that as well. He meets one girl which he'll come to love at those stairs, and he walks away from another girl in tears at those stairs.


[/ QUOTE ]
<span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>And Hikaru finds him there again in Movie 2 while Madoka thinks of it too late.</span>

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
[ QUOTE ]
And that night Madoka is alone. Madoka is studying. Madoka can't study. Madoka is restless. Madoka is phoning...not phoning. Madoka is losing it. /images/graemlins/cry00000.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

The bit where she sits on her bed cross legged, looking lost, &amp; then almost cries while the camra zooms in on her face is most moving...

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I didn't like that scene. There were a couple of scenes which I thought didn't work out in the movie, and this was one of those scenes. That cut of Madoka crying didn't work for me - didn't really convey a sense of drama. Another scene which I didn't think came off properly was the pan at the Ayukawa household and the zoom in and out focusing on the orange juice carton. The staff were looking for something different, but it didn't work.


[/ QUOTE ]
Madoka's facial expressions were not done as well there as they have been in the some of TV and OVAs. I think that is where that scene is weak. It is relying heavily on her expressions to pull it off, but they picked the wrong animator for the job. In spite of that, it was an emotional scene for me because I knew just how she felt -- not being able to concentrate on anything but the emotions running around in ones head. And not knowing quite what to do about them.

That wasn't an orange juice carton. That was the stack of boxes that were being shipped to the parents. They must have been recycling an orange crate or orange juice shipping box. I believe they broke one of the cardinal rules of film-making by doing a 180 cut with the camera there. As a result, what was on the right becomes on the left, etc. This disorients the viewer. As a result, you didn't realize where the camera had been when the next scene shows the same boxes. To pull off a 180, the camera needs to do a flying pan (no, I'm not talking about a Wok).

[ QUOTE ]

On the other hand, there were scenes which I thought were well animated, such as Madoka's turn when she'd been waiting for Kyosuke at the top of the stairs.


[/ QUOTE ]
I agree, that was a memorable shot.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Comic(?) interlude with Komatsu and Hatta pawing through Kyo's smut! These guys are annoying. They suggest Hikaru was an easy catch (implying what about Madoka? That she's beyond him? That she's too much effort?) and force Kyo to admit to having ecchi thoughts about her. My oh my!

[/ QUOTE ]

Unoriginal &amp; infuriating. Why have them in the movie at all if Yuusaku &amp; Kazuya are not? The scene has no place in this movie IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
I disagree. There's little humour in this movie, and most of what there is is provided by Komatsu and Hatta. I don't know if you thought that the scene had no place in the movie because it was more about sex than romantic love, but it does reinforce that Kyosuke has feelings for Hikaru (albeit lust, rather than love). I thought it was realistic as well to acknowledge that Kyosuke is teenager with hormones, and part of the realism that the director was looking for.


[/ QUOTE ]
I believe that particular scene in Kyosuke's room is supposed to show us how passive Kyosuke is. He lets people impose on him with little protest. That helps you believe that he is merely tolerating Hikaru's attentions, rather than desiring them.

The part about him confessing to have thought about sex with Hikaru doesn't say much. It means he isn't repulsed by her, but not much more. A teenage boy is likely to think about sex with just about any attractive girl he sees. For Kyosuke it probably does mean he still finds her attractive.

[ QUOTE ]

Other thoughts and comments:

- What was the significance of the pressed flower that Kyosuke finds in Madoka's notes?


[/ QUOTE ]
I assumed that it was a token of love. Madoka -- who has so much trouble revealing her affection -- is sending him a love note. Flowers seem to have a lot of symbolism in Japan. I don't know what kind of flower that was meant to be. It looks a little like a forget-me-not. There is some indication that a blue flower symbolizes love. That might have been the reference they were after.

This coming immediately before Hikaru's kiss attack sets it up so you know Kyosuke shouldn't have let her. It also shows that subtlety isn't very effective with Kyosuke -- and perhaps boys in general. Hikaru's sledge hammer approach is needed to get the message across.

[ QUOTE ]

- When Kyosuke first tells Madoka over the phone that he loves her, he cups his hand over the handset as if there's some conspiracy or as if it's not something he can bring himself to declare or say openly.


[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps it was hard to say. Perhaps it was a private moment he didn't want to share with others. Little sisters seem to listen to phone calls. How did Manami know that Hikaru was crying on the phone in a later scene? Hikaru wasn't crying when the conversation started, so she wasn't in tears when Manami talked to her.

[ QUOTE ]

- Kyosuke tells Madoka that he loves her. Twice. I don't recall Madoka telling him she loves him (not expressly anyway /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )


[/ QUOTE ]
True. She does get the message across, but not explicitly. I'm not sure how much Kyosuke's declarations mean to her though. She has never trusted what men say about such things. It seems that she really measures things by actions, such as a kiss, or getting all muddy and bruised coming for her after the UFO incident.

[ QUOTE ]

- The ending song and end credit sequences are probably my favourite in all anime.


[/ QUOTE ]
I wasn't all that thrilled with my nose being rubbed in the fact that it was just a film. Seemed like the director saying, "Don't get so emotional. It is just a film."

I do love the song by Kanako Wada, though.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
[ QUOTE ]
the scene when Hikaru confronts Madoka at Abcb is more powerful to me, particularly when Hikaru points to the unfairness that Madoka never had to do anything to attract Kyosuke whereas Hikaru could do anything if it was for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I found it more interesting than powerful. Madoka was expecting a reaction from Hikaru &amp; got it. Hikaru's speech was restrained but loaded with feeling. Madoka looked annoyed, &amp; perhaps its because she thought Hikaru was regarding Kyosuke as a trophy to be enticed &amp; won, rather than an individual free to hame his own choice. Kyosuke's feelings are in Madoka's equation, as much as her own.
What I like about this movie is that it makes me think, &amp; taking sides is not black &amp; white.

[/ QUOTE ]
Nice point. I like that assessment of that scene, and the movie.

[Njr Scrawl]

I'd like that item, although I already have the Piano CD proper. Worth it for Madoka's voiceover. Do you know the catalogue number?

ADV did use a trailer for their VHS &amp; 1st release (red hat) DVD, but don't know whether it was the Japanese one, or their own.

AFA Japanese release history, I've not seen any VHS, but own both standard &amp; SE LDs. The latter came with all 3 SKOR CDs - Image (SKOR theemed songs), OST (which has all 4 versions of Kyosuke #1) &amp; Madoka's Piano Files.

I've also got the French R2E (PAL) dual language DVD "Ce Été La", which comes with a nice fan-written booklet &amp; SKOR III novel in French as extras.

Both ADV R1 releases are still around, so are their VHS versions.

Shin KOR I novel's translation into English can be found online fairly easily. As can II &amp; III.

SKOR I has had 3 different versions in Japanese.; the original, original with movie scenes adaption, original with some re-written scenes (latest version printed). There is also an "anime comic" (screencaps + speech bubbles)

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
[ QUOTE ]

- Why does Takashi form part of the circle to bring Kyosuke's soul back? Takashi has no Power.


[/ QUOTE ]
Seemed like a seance where anyone can contribute.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I guess, but it just seemed strange within the KOR world to me. As far as I can recall, this is the only occasion in the series in which Power-less Takashi has anything to do with supernatural matters.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

- Like Shimauma, I was wondering why Kyosuke didn't just use Power to teleport back to the Green House.


[/ QUOTE ]
As a fish, where would he teleport to? As a cat, why would he want to? There he is alone with Madoka and offers of showering with her. He'd go back eventually, but what's the rush?

[/ QUOTE ]

As a fish - the toilet bowl /images/graemlins/tongue.gif (or hope they filled the goldfish bowl with water again).
As a cat - I agree that once he was knocked on the head by Madoka and her wine, he was in no rush to get home. But what about when he was chased out of the Hiyama household? Then again, I guess you could argue that he would've known the way back from that house and didn't need to teleport when he was a cat.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
[ QUOTE ]
The TV series doesn't give any indication that Hikaru is aware that there's anything between Kyosuke and Madoka.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh yes she does. /images/graemlins/happy.gif That dream at the start of the mushroom episode shows the suspicion that's been building up in her subconsious. Hikaru may shrug it off, &amp; Kyosuke might alleviate it, but Hikaru still has it there IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

Suspicion from time to time maybe, but I still can't see her having anything near certain knowledge. Even with regard to suspicion, Hikaru's behaviour throughout the TV series seems to me to suggest so much more that she wasn't aware of the true state of affairs. You could argue that she was a very good actor (particularly given her interest in Downtown Cats /images/graemlins/happy.gif ) but I don't think she was that good.

[ QUOTE ]
If Madoka had rejected Kyosuke, Hikaru would have moved right back in. And Kyosuke would have been to shattered to stop her. Madoka knows this. I've considered that statement again, &amp; now think its a tease.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I don't know which statement you're referring to here.

[ QUOTE ]
Kyo &amp; Maddy need each other badly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Maddy /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There's little humour in this movie, and most of what there is is provided by Komatsu and Hatta. I don't know if you thought that the scene had no place in the movie because it was more about sex than romantic love, but it does reinforce that Kyosuke has feelings for Hikaru (albeit lust, rather than love). I thought it was realistic as well to acknowledge that Kyosuke is teenager with hormones, and part of the realism that the director was looking for.


[/ QUOTE ]

We know Kyosuke has feelings for Hikaru from his enjoyment of her kiss &amp; chat at Abcb. Plus the TV series! And that he has hormones etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as the TV series goes, being a movie, staff always try to explain stuff to newbies to avoid limiting the audience to only those who've seen 48 episodes prior.

Even if there are other scenes in the movie which touch on Kyosuke's relationship with Hikaru, this particular scene just expands on that.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not repelled by the fact there's humour (liked the Umao/Ushiko bit) so much as the crassness of that scene, in a serious movie about sensitivity, especially after seeing the distraught Madoka.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it was because it was intended as a serious and realistic movie that that scene was inserted. I get the feeling that Matsumoto probably would've agreed with you, given that he didn't like Shin KOR.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
the scene when Hikaru confronts Madoka at Abcb is more powerful to me, particularly when Hikaru points to the unfairness that Madoka never had to do anything to attract Kyosuke whereas Hikaru could do anything if it was for him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I found it more interesting than powerful. Madoka was expecting a reaction from Hikaru &amp; got it. Hikaru's speech was restrained but loaded with feeling. Madoka looked annoyed, &amp; perhaps its because she thought Hikaru was regarding Kyosuke as a trophy to be enticed &amp; won, rather than an individual free to hame his own choice. Kyosuke's feelings are in Madoka's equation, as much as her own.

[/ QUOTE ]

When I've watched the movie, I've never felt that Madoka was annoyed in that scene. I always interpreted that scene as Madoka steeling herself to be firm. Hikaru's attempts to get Kyosuke to relent and let her back into his life have failed. Perhaps she's trying a different tack here - she goes to the other side of the relationship, Madoka, to see if Madoka will give and (as she did in the past) get Kyosuke to be nice to Hikaru. Madoka's anticipated this meeting and knows she'll have to be tough. But it didn't seem like annoyance to me, more just that she knew that her own happiness depended on not backing down this time.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
I think she knew, but her strategy is to pretend it wasn't true.

[/ QUOTE ]

An alternative interpretation would be that Hikaru's faith was shaken from time to time, but Kyosuke was able to restore that by being nice to her.

[ QUOTE ]
The first scene in Abcb shows some concern about Madoka being with Kyosuke.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, perhaps concern about their relationship, but perhaps partly also because of her realisation that when they go to college she'll spend much less time with them.

[ QUOTE ]
After seeing the photo in Madoka's room she is acting competitive, rather than outraged or confused. She knew that Kyosuke liked Madoka. She might not have been so sure Madoka liked Kyosuke. That might have been something of a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

I not suggesting that Hikaru was totally oblivious to the relationship, just that she wasn't as certain of it as she made out. So I don't think her comment to Madoka about the scarf (nor her expression when Kyosuke breaks up with her) was inconsistent with that. But I do acknowledge what you say about her gasp perhaps being due to the realisation that Madoka liked Kyosuke too - I hadn't thought of it myself that way.

[ QUOTE ]
It is true that Madoka often gave Kyosuke a hard time, and didn't often reveal her true fellings. However, I think the nature of her affection for him was considerably different than Hikaru's. I think he was more of an object to Hikaru and more of a person to Madoka. Madoka liked him for who he was. Hikaru barely paid attention to who he was or how he felt. She was trying to make him feel the way she wanted him to. Madoka cared about how he really felt.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree that the nature of their affection for Kyosuke may have been different, but I'm still reluctant to say that Hikaru saw him as a prize or possession. Yes, perhaps it was infatuation instead of love. But she was also younger than the other two (and perhaps didn't know what love was). As to paying attention to Kyosuke, she was more of the spouse to him than Madoka was. She would've seen that as the stereotypical role of the wife - making the lunches etc /images/graemlins/happy.gif So she may have a different idea of what it means to be a lover, but I wouldn't say myself that she sees Kyosuke as a sort of possession.

[ QUOTE ]
I agree. People complain about Kimagure Orange Road having too much filler -- especially the TV series. I think all those episodes do have benefit.

[/ QUOTE ]

I might have mentioned this in one of the locked threads, but it's strange: part of the reason I like anime is the planned storylines (compared to the neverending series on Western TV shows which run until rating require an axe). Yet, I kinda like the fact with KOR that I can just watch an episode now and then without having to watch the whole series.

[ QUOTE ]
I never noticed that there might be a kiss there. I can't really tell if it is or just her leaning on him for a moment. Seems to be intentionally left ambiguous.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, it's ambiguous, but part of the reason why I think that scene suggests another kiss is we see Kyosuke's hand tensing as he grips the fence - he senses that Hikaru going to do something, then we have the distant shot. If there was conflict, if Kyosuke had rejected Hikaru's advances, I would have expected it to be depicted. The fact that nothing of that sort was shown suggests to me Hikaru pressed on and he wasn't firm enough to stop her (but was passive, as you say).

[ QUOTE ]
That wasn't an orange juice carton. That was the stack of boxes that were being shipped to the parents.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, my bad. I wasn't paying much attention 'cos I don't like that scene /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I believe they broke one of the cardinal rules of film-making by doing a 180 cut with the camera there. As a result, what was on the right becomes on the left, etc. This disorients the viewer. As a result, you didn't realize where the camera had been when the next scene shows the same boxes. To pull off a 180, the camera needs to do a flying pan (no, I'm not talking about a Wok).

[/ QUOTE ]

You explained it much better than I did. I'll even forgive the pun /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

- When Kyosuke first tells Madoka over the phone that he loves her, he cups his hand over the handset as if there's some conspiracy or as if it's not something he can bring himself to declare or say openly.


[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps it was hard to say. Perhaps it was a private moment he didn't want to share with others. Little sisters seem to listen to phone calls.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good point. I'd assumed that everyone else was out of the house.

[ QUOTE ]
How did Manami know that Hikaru was crying on the phone in a later scene? Hikaru wasn't crying when the conversation started, so she wasn't in tears when Manami talked to her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I noticed that too. Doesn't seem realistic that Manami was able to hear what was going on (unless she was using Power), I like that scene. We see that Manami is aware that something's going on, and she's concerned and sad for Hikaru.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

- Kyosuke tells Madoka that he loves her. Twice. I don't recall Madoka telling him she loves him (not expressly anyway /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )


[/ QUOTE ]
True. She does get the message across, but not explicitly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I agree with that. It just seems to mirror TV episodes 47 &amp; 48, though, where Madoka basically tells Kyosuke that she's fallen in love with her and he doesn't do the same. Now in the movie, Kyosuke tells her he loves her and she doesn't do the same /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure how much Kyosuke's declarations mean to her though. She has never trusted what men say about such things. It seems that she really measures things by actions, such as a kiss, or getting all muddy and bruised coming for her after the UFO incident.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, though Kyosuke's different, and that's part of why she likes him. He's not the smooth talking type (except when self-hypnotised). When he tells her for the second time that he loves her, she's visibly surprised.

[ QUOTE ]

I wasn't all that thrilled with my nose being rubbed in the fact that it was just a film. Seemed like the director saying, "Don't get so emotional. It is just a film."

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't see that way at all. I just loved the ending the moment I saw it. To me, it's got a nostalgic sense, going over scenes from the movie, Hikaru in her yukata her arm outstretched and describing an arc in the air, Madoka kneeling in front of her wardrobe to take out her yukata etc.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
I'd like that item, although I already have the Piano CD proper. Worth it for Madoka's voiceover. Do you know the catalogue number?

[/ QUOTE ]

Sorry, I couldn't find a catalogue number on the box or VHS tape. The only thing I found was the number 2217P on the CD single. I don't know if that will help.

You can see the box and specially recorded CD single pictured in the related goods page of the SE LD booklet (the page where all the goods use the same pic of Madoka).

As to the items themselves:
- the CD single is roughly 3 minutes long and basically uses the piano version of Kyosuke No. 1 from the OST (I think), while the monologue by Madoka is spoken at an easy pace with pauses, so there's not a huge amount spoken;
- the VHS tape is roughly 2 and a half minutes long, with the long trailer being just under 2 minutes and the short trailer being roughly half a minute. I think both trailers appear at the end of the SE LD (since that LD has one long trailer and 10(!) short trailers) and the quality of the LD version is of course much better.

So the only reason you'd really want to get the Premium Box is for the brief monologue by Madoka (and for completeness /images/graemlins/happy.gif nice packaging). Basically the Premium Box was one of the options when buying an advance ticket for the theatrical release of Shin KOR: get the advance ticket with the Premium Box for 2,200 yen. Another (cheaper) option was to get an advance ticket with a B2 size poster (same pic of Madoka in the red hat).

[ QUOTE ]
AFA Japanese release history, I've not seen any VHS, but own both standard &amp; SE LDs.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any difference between the standard and SE LDs in terms of content? I know that the jacket artwork was different. I only bought the SE LD version.

[ QUOTE ]
The latter came with all 3 SKOR CDs - Image (SKOR theemed songs), OST (which has all 4 versions of Kyosuke #1) &amp; Madoka's Piano Files.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, the SE LD came with just the Vocal Collection CD (which just collects together all the vocal songs from the OST and the Image CD). The SE LD box however had space for you to store the other 3 Shin KOR CDs as well.

[ QUOTE ]
Both ADV R1 releases are still around, so are their VHS versions.

[/ QUOTE ]

I heard that ADV Films changed the opening credits sequence for the VHS version to remove the part when camera moves through the RO kana (looks like an "O") in "ROAD" of the Shin Kimagure Orange Road title - one of my friends was upset about that /images/graemlins/happy.gif But if it was changed, it was undone for the DVD release.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
As a fish - the toilet bowl /images/graemlins/tongue.gif (or hope they filled the goldfish bowl with water again).

[/ QUOTE ]
Kyosuke seems to have rather bad luck with timing. He probably would have teleported just at the wrong time and had Kurumi unknowingly flush him.

He may not know the current location for the fishbowl. Doubtful that they would have filled it and put it back where it had been.

[ QUOTE ]

As a cat - I agree that once he was knocked on the head by Madoka and her wine, he was in no rush to get home. But what about when he was chased out of the Hiyama household? Then again, I guess you could argue that he would've known the way back from that house and didn't need to teleport when he was a cat.

[/ QUOTE ]
He was probably on his way back when he ran into Madoka.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Madoka opens her yukata drawer, closes it, calls Kyosuke, then while he's on the way, puts it on again &amp; starts flashing her house lights on &amp; off. She seems to be staging an imitation of the carnival outside. Again it could be to have a psychological effect on Kyosuke &amp; heighten his anxiety. He would see the lights in the house go on &amp; off up the road as he approached, &amp; get freaked. Then she almost falls onto his shoulder when he embraces her. Its a similar action to her feigned faint in that episode when she knew he was coming, asuming she was going to America.


[/ QUOTE ]
You need to look at that scene again. She doesn't close the drawer. She opens it, the camera cuts. Madoka didn't lie to Kyosuke when she said she put on her yukata before phoning him. It was putting on the yukata that brought all her emotions to the surface. I took that to mean that it brought back memories that caused the tears to flow.

Madoka isn't staging anything. The flashing lights are not for effect. It is a result of the emotional state she's in. I guess you've never done that. I have. I was surprised to see it was universal enough for a director in Japan to use it, but it conveyed a deep level of pain to me.

[Bumble]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
What did you think of my slant on it -- kisses being something Madoka wanted to reserve for positive situations that would make good memories? There is evidence for this in the TV series, especially Madoka's comment about wanting to carve out their memories one by one.

[/ QUOTE ]

A very good point, although there was the odd occasion in the TV series where it seemed Madoka might actually give an incapacitated Kyosuke a kiss! I think the importance of kisses to her in creating positive memories is one of the important factors as to why she is so upset at Hikaru's kiss with Kyosuke; an event that should symbolize true love, which in this case is merely the culmination of four years' worth of deception and denial on all their part.

The kiss really a stark wake-up call for all the characters, being the crux of this very serious change of circumstances. Going into KOR as a whole, I knew the eventual revelation would be traumatic, especially for Hikaru, but never though it would be this traumatic. <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>And then in Movie 2 we even find out that she moved away completely (although we also find out that both Madoka and Kyosuke were not as heartless as they seemed in Movie 1).</span>

Even now, it's still amazing to think that a series that was packed with so many charming comedy and fantasy moments would culminate in such a sober, realistic production as Movie 1. I've heard comment that since some of the characterizations in the movie are different from the TV series, that the characters were being presented as ciphers in order to appeal to a more general audience (along with no references to the Power). While I don't necessarily completely disagree with this, I do have to keep reminding myself that this is supposed to be a few years on from the TV series' conclusion. Plenty of time for characters to change!

[Njr Scrawl]

Taking movie 1 as a couple years on from the happenings in TV #48, &amp; in the same continuity, it must have been hard for both Madoka &amp; Kyosuke to keep up their pretence of not being too close, &amp; keeping Hikaru happy, which would have been harder work in some ways. Perhaps the irony/sarcasm of Madoka's remark in the classroom has added weight if its like she's saying Kyosuke got carried away &amp;/or could not stop beyond a certain point...

Perhaps Hikaru's suspicions mainly occurs after episode #48. She would have noticed some changes IMO, however subtle &amp; suppressed, as she knew Madoka very well, &amp; watched Kyosuke like a hawk. "Kimagure Orange Road:The In-Between Years".

Well...ready for movie 2 or wait a bit longer? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[Isuzu Inugami]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Hikaru seemed so loving on the surface, but she actually had little empathy for Kyosuke. She was not at all sensitive to his feelings. She was trying to mold him into what she wanted. Deep down, Hikaru was a very selfish person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though Madoka's behaviour to Kyosuke throughout the series wasn't very considerate to him either. She thought she had his affection (as she admits), yet she was often pushing him to be with Hikaru as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that Hikaru was trying to mold Kyo into being the person she wanted him to be... I think he pretty much already was. But she was trying to mold, more or less by brute force, the relationship into being the relationship she wanted it to be. She started off with "darling" right away, way before any such intimate nickname would have been called for. She doesn't really know how to go about winning him, so she acts as if he has already been won, and his reluctance to protest makes her think this strategy is working.

As for Madoka, intially she isn't sure how she feels about him, and Hikaru is her friend, so Kyo can't be harsh to Hikaru. This sets the pattern, and all three become trapped in it, with increasing friction as the show goes on.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Madoka does get a bit weird at the end of the flashback. Just before they return to the B&amp;W present, she asks if she can believe in him. Then tells him that she wont blame him for being out all night with Hikaru. It is as though she doesn't really believe him, but will pretend to. The really odd line is where she tells him that if she did blame him, he wouldn't have anyone to turn to. What!? Does she mistrust him so much that she thinks he fooled around with Hikaru rather than what he told her about her stalking? If so, he could easily turn back to Hikaru. What was she thinking.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't consider those lines carefully when watching the movie, but I thought what she meant was that:
- she believed in his feelings for her;
- she trusted that if he was with Hikaru that night, he had acted appropriately;
- if she were to reject him (after basically having asked him to reject Hikaru), then he'd be left with no one.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is an extension of the theme of Kyo's feelings being the issue, that Madoka brought up after she confessed to him. I think she meant that Kyo had never made his feelings very clear, especially to Hikaru, and that Madoka didn't think he had made them clear to himself. Thus the note passing incident later, where she's not sure if he was able to break up with Hikaru.

So now, at the end of the film, what Madoka knows is that Kyo and Hikaru were together last night, and Kyo didn't come home. Which looks rather bad. But he says nothing happened. She wants to trust him, she wants to believe him, most importantly, she wants to believe he has made his feelings clear to himself, and that therefore by his being her with her, he chose her and not Hikaru, whatever happened last night. So she asks him to let her believe in his feelings for her. She's putting herself in a position of tremendous vulnerability, trusting him to have finally become clear enough about his own feelings to tell her honestly now whether she can believe in him. Whatever happened with Hikaru last night. Her line about if she rejected him now, he would have no one, further underscores her decision to believe in him, because she has chosen to believe him when he said he ended things with Hikaru. (thus, he would have no one.)

This is Madoka, who does not entrust others with her heart easily, choosing to trust Kyo, choosing to have faith in him, no matter what. It's really all very romantic, if you can just untangle it. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
"Dady Borden" ice cream? Does Kyo really like sweet things, contrary to Japanese sterotypes of men, or is he merely indulging Hikaru?

[/ QUOTE ]

Which Japanese stereotype is that? I thought slim bishonen were more popular in Japan than macho men. Hence the characters in yaoi and idols like KimuTaku etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

It seems like I've seen a lot of anime where characters assert guys don't like sweets, or wannabe girlfriends subjet the object of their attentions to something terribly sweet, and the guy is pained by how sweet it is. Like it's assumed most men don't like sweets, or it's manly not to like sweets.

[ QUOTE ]


Other thoughts and comments:

- What was the significance of the pressed flower that Kyosuke finds in Madoka's notes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Madoka is subtle about showing affection. This is a love-gift to Kyo. Also, it balances the wind-chime Hikaru gives him.

[ QUOTE ]

- No Power in this movie. Though of course no Power was going to save the trio from the position that they now found themselves in (except that Kyosuke could have teleported back to the Kasuga apartment if he didn't want to walk past Hikaru waiting at the bottom of Green House /images/graemlins/tongue.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]

Very significant, and I never even mentioned it. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif On these emotional reefs, in this painful shattering of relationships, there is nothing the Power can do. It's useless for matters that are the most important.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Hikaru seemed so loving on the surface, but she actually had little empathy for Kyosuke. She was not at all sensitive to his feelings. She was trying to mold him into what she wanted. Deep down, Hikaru was a very selfish person.

[/ QUOTE ]

Though Madoka's behaviour to Kyosuke throughout the series wasn't very considerate to him either. She thought she had his affection (as she admits), yet she was often pushing him to be with Hikaru as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know that Hikaru was trying to mold Kyo into being the person she wanted him to be... I think he pretty much already was. But she was trying to mold, more or less by brute force, the relationship into being the relationship she wanted it to be. She started off with "darling" right away, way before any such intimate nickname would have been called for. She doesn't really know how to go about winning him, so she acts as if he has already been won, and his reluctance to protest makes her think this strategy is working.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I think you are correct. It wasn't that she was trying to change his personality; she was trying to change his mind about her. Hikaru tried to make the relationship real by acting as though it were real. By creating the appearance of a relationship she hoped to cause people to believe it was real. It worked on Komatsu, Hatta, Akane, and others. It might even have worked on Manami and Kurumi, but it didn't work on the one person most desired, Kyosuke.

Choosing a career in acting, fit Hikaru perfectly.

[ QUOTE ]

As for Madoka, intially she isn't sure how she feels about him, and Hikaru is her friend, so Kyo can't be harsh to Hikaru. This sets the pattern, and all three become trapped in it, with increasing friction as the show goes on.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think Madoka's hesitation about Kyosuke is fueled by her distrust of males. I believe she likes him to a certain extent in the beginning, but isn't ready to trust any guy with her feelings. Her affection increases as she becomes able to trust him.

They all inadvertently collaborated on creating the pattern that trapped them. Madoka's almost knee-jerk reaction to support Hikaru's happiness pushed Kyosuke into going along with Hikaru's declaration of a relationship.

Kyosuke's passive nature also contributed. In a addition, he found Hikaru attractive. At times when he felt Madoka might not return his feelings, he fell back to Hikaru as consolation.

Hikaru made full use of Kyosuke's passive nature to promote her wishes.

They each had a part in setting things up for the disaster of that occurred in Movie 1. The complexity of it all is what makes Kimagure Orange Road so interesting.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

- What was the significance of the pressed flower that Kyosuke finds in Madoka's notes?

[/ QUOTE ]

Madoka is subtle about showing affection. This is a love-gift to Kyo. Also, it balances the wind-chime Hikaru gives him.


[/ QUOTE ]
Madoka's gift is quiet and subtle. Hikaru's is quite noisy. Seems fitting.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]

- No Power in this movie.

[/ QUOTE ]

Very significant, and I never even mentioned it. /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif On these emotional reefs, in this painful shattering of relationships, there is nothing the Power can do.

[/ QUOTE ]
Kazuya's power might have been useful in such situations.

[ QUOTE ]
It's useless for matters that are the most important.

[/ QUOTE ]
Other than saving Madoka's life on several occasions, and Hikaru from being hit by a car.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Well...ready for movie 2 or wait a bit longer? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I think we might as well open it up for Movie 2. This would allow discussion of the entire Kimagure Orange Road world without spoilers. The Movie 1 discussion can continue with the benefit of being able to refer to Movie 2.

Anyone who hasn't caught up, please feel free to comment on any TV episode, OVA, movie, or manga.

Summer's Beginning:
Time has passed. The characters are older and they all look a little different. Styles have changed and Madoka no longer has the teased big-hair. Hikaru has let her hair grow.

A film of healing after the pain of Movie 1. The main features seemed to be the consummation of Kyosuke and Madoka's love, and a reconciliation between Hikaru and Madoka. Definitely a feel-good film.

Something kept 19 year-old Kyosuke from going directly to Madoka. Part of it seemed to be his confusion, and part of it seemed to be a force larger than him. Perhaps it was just a coincidence that he was transported back to the stairs at the precise moment he tried to make contact with her. Maybe it was the same force that caused the red hat to blow towards him on the stairs long ago. Maybe it was the scriptwriter trying to make the plot work. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

The idol singer they thought was a pretty decent guy in the OVA has turned out to be a rather sleazy character. Seems like Shiori isn't with him anymore, or he doesn't mind two-timing. What was with his Sgt. Peppers jacket?

It doesn't seem like Kyosuke has gotten much smarter with age. 22 year-old Kyosuke's comment about banging Hikaru, without Madoka knowing, seemed quite idiotic. I'd like to think he was just teasing his younger self, and not serious.

Hikaru has mellowed. Hard to know how much was from age, and how much was from the heartbreak. She was quite nervous towards Madoka. We left her still angry in movie 1. We didn't see her come to the realization that her friendship with Madoka was over. That probably would have been a very emotional scene.

I wonder what happened to Kyosuke's dad? Maybe he moved to Hokkaido for better scenery.

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
How did Manami know that Hikaru was crying on the phone in a later scene? Hikaru wasn't crying when the conversation started, so she wasn't in tears when Manami talked to her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I noticed that too. Doesn't seem realistic that Manami was able to hear what was going on (unless she was using Power), I like that scene. We see that Manami is aware that something's going on, and she's concerned and sad for Hikaru.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that her comment was because she heard Hikaru crying on the phone with Kyosuke. I think it had more to do with the fact that Hikaru was crying BEFORE she called. It's pretty clear that Hikaru was crying before the phone call, and had tried to act like she wasn't, and everything was normal. When people do this, they never sound right. There is still an extreme sadness in their voice, and slight tremors that are hard the hear. I'm certain that Minami had picked up on this. Her comment was more about Hikaru having been crying before the call, and just making sure that Kyosuke knew that.

Minami has preferred Madoka, while Kurumi had preferred Hikaru, but neither one really knew who Kyosuke preferred, and so they developed a relationship with both of them. Neither of the twins wants to see either girl hurting, although Manami can see that Kyosuke is hurting also, and isn't sure what to do. I'm sure that she would be there for him, if he needed it. Kurumi, on the other hand... I feel that if she had been there in place of Manami, she would have likely been very hard on Kyosuke, but also might not have picked up on the fact that Hikaru had been crying.

That's my take on it. Having been on both sides of the telephone call myself, I can relate.

-TC

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Madoka isn't staging anything. The flashing lights are not for effect. It is a result of the emotional state she's in. I guess you've never done that. I have. I was surprised to see it was universal enough for a director in Japan to use it, but it conveyed a deep level of pain to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not completely certain exactly what the flashing lights represented to you, or when you had used them... To me, this seemed like Madoka had just about completely lost it, which we know she did. I seriously doubt that Madoka even realized that she was flashing the lights on and off. It's that at that very moment, Madoka was completely incapable of doing anything at all except sit (stand?) there and fidget. The light switch was just there, and something fidget with, and possibly relieve some energy, or distract her slightly from her penned up emotions that had just gotten out.

I'm really trying to think of a moment in my life where I've done such a thing, and can't quite recall, and I've done a lot of stuff, trying to pass the time waiting on something.

It's VERY clear to me that Madoka was not capable of staging anything, and was probably on the very brink of disaster when she called Kyosuke. I think that if he had not chosen her at that moment, she would have been lost to everyone forever.

-TC

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Madoka isn't staging anything. The flashing lights are not for effect. It is a result of the emotional state she's in. I guess you've never done that. I have. I was surprised to see it was universal enough for a director in Japan to use it, but it conveyed a deep level of pain to me.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not completely certain exactly what the flashing lights represented to you, or when you had used them... To me, this seemed like Madoka had just about completely lost it, which we know she did. I seriously doubt that Madoka even realized that she was flashing the lights on and off. It's that at that very moment, Madoka was completely incapable of doing anything at all except sit (stand?) there and fidget. The light switch was just there, and something fidget with, and possibly relieve some energy, or distract her slightly from her penned up emotions that had just gotten out.

I'm really trying to think of a moment in my life where I've done such a thing, and can't quite recall, and I've done a lot of stuff, trying to pass the time waiting on something.

It's VERY clear to me that Madoka was not capable of staging anything, and was probably on the very brink of disaster when she called Kyosuke. I think that if he had not chosen her at that moment, she would have been lost to everyone forever.

-TC

[/ QUOTE ]
"Lost it" is a good description. It is pretty much as you say. You are so stressed, grieved, or upset that your mind is kind of numb. You aren't really capable of much of anything. The only thing that fills your consciousness is the click of the switch and you do it over and over, perhaps wondering why you are doing it.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
How did Manami know that Hikaru was crying on the phone in a later scene? Hikaru wasn't crying when the conversation started, so she wasn't in tears when Manami talked to her.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I noticed that too. Doesn't seem realistic that Manami was able to hear what was going on (unless she was using Power), I like that scene. We see that Manami is aware that something's going on, and she's concerned and sad for Hikaru.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think that her comment was because she heard Hikaru crying on the phone with Kyosuke. I think it had more to do with the fact that Hikaru was crying BEFORE she called. It's pretty clear that Hikaru was crying before the phone call, and had tried to act like she wasn't, and everything was normal. When people do this, they never sound right. There is still an extreme sadness in their voice, and slight tremors that are hard the hear. I'm certain that Minami had picked up on this. Her comment was more about Hikaru having been crying before the call, and just making sure that Kyosuke knew that.


[/ QUOTE ]
What gives you the clue that she was crying before the phone call. I didn't notice anything. What you say makes sense, I just didn't see how Manami would know.

[ QUOTE ]

Minami has preferred Madoka, while Kurumi had preferred Hikaru, but neither one really knew who Kyosuke preferred, and so they developed a relationship with both of them. Neither of the twins wants to see either girl hurting, although Manami can see that Kyosuke is hurting also, and isn't sure what to do. I'm sure that she would be there for him, if he needed it. Kurumi, on the other hand... I feel that if she had been there in place of Manami, she would have likely been very hard on Kyosuke, but also might not have picked up on the fact that Hikaru had been crying.

That's my take on it. Having been on both sides of the telephone call myself, I can relate.

[/ QUOTE ]
The only thing I can think of regarding Madoka and Manami is when Madoka treats Manami's cut at school. Was there some other indication that Manami favored Madoka?

Kurumi definitely likes Hikaru from the beginning. I think she recognizes a kindred spirit in Hikaru. They do have similarities.

Come to think of it, Manami is a little like Madoka, and Kurumi is a little like Hikaru. Hadn't thought of that before, but it was probably intentional.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:

Summer's Beginning:
Time has passed. The characters are older and they all look a little different. Styles have changed and Madoka no longer has the teased big-hair. Hikaru has let her hair grow.

[/ QUOTE ]

This movie is truer to the spirit of KOR TV for characters &amp; is like a feature length OVA really.

I think the character designs are OK for the story &amp; time settings of this particular movie. I guess if Akemi Takeda had done the characters, Madoka would have had a passing resemblance to Kyoko in Maison Ikkoku.

Madoka age 19 is very sexy &amp; cute. Her "gift" chat with Kyosuke after he won the photography prize...is pure gold. As good or better than her other little sexy exchanges with Kyosuke during the TV. She knows her timing &amp; when/how to make the next big step in their relationship come about. Red dress.

Hikaru has grown up &amp; into serious competition for Madoka in the looks department. Something Madoka probably realised would happen, &amp; which may have made her want to get Kyosuke more urgently.
Compare Hikaru at 20 with Madoka at 19, rather than 22. Is it any wonder Kyosuke at 19 was virtually drooling over Hikaru. She only 1 year older, giggly, bubbly &amp; no longer shrill.

[ QUOTE ]
A film of healing after the pain of Movie 1. The main features seemed to be the consummation of Kyosuke and Madoka's love, and a reconciliation between Hikaru and Madoka. Definitely a feel-good film.

[/ QUOTE ]

The reconciliation between Hikaru &amp; Madoka - their actual meeting anyway - was not in the original SKOR novel. A movie-modified version was released later. The flashback to movie 1 scenes was accurate pictorially, but too bland for facial expressions, not showing the pain in such detail.

[ QUOTE ]
Something kept 19 year-old Kyosuke from going directly to Madoka. Part of it seemed to be his confusion, and part of it seemed to be a force larger than him. Perhaps it was just a coincidence that he was transported back to the stairs at the precise moment he tried to make contact with her. Maybe it was the same force that caused the red hat to blow towards him on the stairs long ago. Maybe it was the scriptwriter trying to make the plot work. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he was disoriented for awhile, &amp; then he met Hikaru (who didn't think he should look older than he did?). After getting over those two shocks, Kyosuke did go to Madoka's house, watched the piano scene &amp; was about to drop in, when he passed out &amp; was transported back to the steps.

I wondered about the fact that if there is a supernatural aspect to the steps as Kyosuke thought there might be, the uneasy feeling ordinary people might get from it could back up Hikaru's explanation that people avoided them, preferring the long way round. Hikaru would not be bothered by such feelings, &amp; possibly Madoke might have been intrigued in the past.

[ QUOTE ]
The idol singer they thought was a pretty decent guy in the OVA has turned out to be a rather sleazy character. Seems like Shiori isn't with him anymore, or he doesn't mind two-timing. What was with his Sgt. Peppers jacket?

[/ QUOTE ]

A bit Nashville too? He must have broken up with Shiori. And he must have been watching Madoka. Perhaps he was working with her before Kyosuke went to Bosnia, &amp; moved closer to her after the disappearance was reported.

Madoka the "Cinderella girl", made a name &amp; money for herself from a hit song. While still a student. Impressive. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

She was pretty broken up, having started smoking again &amp; in a state worse than in movie 1 -with very little hope of seeing her Kyosuke again.

[ QUOTE ]
It doesn't seem like Kyosuke has gotten much smarter with age. 22 year-old Kyosuke's comment about banging Hikaru, without Madoka knowing, seemed quite idiotic. I'd like to think he was just teasing his younger self, and not serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I too had a low opinion of him. For a start, what a selfish jerk to go to Bosnia, put himself in harm's way, &amp; stay there leaving Madoka alone back in Japan not knowing how he was. He was not really apologetic about it (or how his younger self was), but I think learned a lesson &amp; won't leave Madoka alone again. The ending scene showing him photographing kids, a puppy &amp; Madoka imply that he was happy to stay home.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru has mellowed. Hard to know how much was from age, and how much was from the heartbreak. She was quite nervous towards Madoka. We left her still angry in movie 1. We didn't see her come to the realization that her friendship with Madoka was over. That probably would have been a very emotional scene.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hikaru is gorgeous. Period. Long hair suits her &amp; her personality has become charming with the combination of sensitivity, sincerity &amp; young-womanliness. She didn't end her relationship with Madoka, it just got very distanced. Madoka kept it that way IMO - hence Hikaru's remark about cards that said nothing, but she still received gifts. As Kyosuke observed, the girls have a very deep bond, like sisters.

Hikaru wanted to be equal to Madoka in maturity, before they met again. She is still looking up to Madoka as a role model. And still in love with Kyosuke - her pain still shows when she's having a bath after Kyosuke has passed out. Would she have stayed in the bed with Kyosuke had he not called "Ayukawa" in his sleep? I loved the "nothing happened" dialogue &amp; Hikaru's expressions. Priceless. /images/graemlins/cool.gif

Poor Hikaru though she was going to get slapped when Madoka saw Kyosuke.
Madoka loves Hikaru's honesty, freshness &amp; forthrightness. She would hate to lose Hikaru's friendship permanently. That chat at the swimming pool was a very good scene, Hikaru being honest about her feelings, &amp; Madoka appreciating how grown up Hikaru had become. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what happened to Kyosuke's dad? Maybe he moved to Hokkaido for better scenery.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or re-married even. The lady dentist maybe.

The twins don't seem any different. Kurumi a 20 year old brat!

So what about temporal paradoxes etc. Is what happens in the story wiped out? If Kyosuke19 reminds himself again, doesn't get hit - then Kyosuke22 will escape being injured in Bosnia (or uses the Power to escape), &amp; comes home safe &amp; sooner to his (still indignant) Madoka.

What do you all think of the consummation scene? /images/graemlins/wink.gif Kyosuke trying to be sooo sensitive about how physically lustful he feels towards Madoka, &amp; she commenting on the only thing left he hasn't realised about being intimate. Tenderly animated scene &amp; better than many live movies.

(1h 25m 16s - that's my cel! /images/graemlins/cool.gif )

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
A bit Nashville too? He must have broken up with Shiori. And he must have been watching Madoka. Perhaps he was working with her before Kyosuke went to Bosnia, &amp; moved closer to her after the disappearance was reported.


[/ QUOTE ]
I got the feeling that he knew she was going to be a hot property in the music world and wanted a piece of it. Actually, it seemed like he wanted to be in control of it. His comment about him being the only one who can save her could probably be turned on its head. He probably wanted her to save his career.

[ QUOTE ]

Madoka the "Cinderella girl", made a name &amp; money for herself from a hit song. While still a student. Impressive. /images/graemlins/happy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
It is sort of a mystery why she wasn't a music idol in high school. Lack of inclination would seem the only likely reason.

[ QUOTE ]

She was pretty broken up, having started smoking again &amp; in a state worse than in movie 1 -with very little hope of seeing her Kyosuke again.


[/ QUOTE ]
Was she smoking because of stress over Kyosuke, or because she was older now?

[ QUOTE ]

I too had a low opinion of him. For a start, what a selfish jerk to go to Bosnia, put himself in harm's way, &amp; stay there leaving Madoka alone back in Japan not knowing how he was. He was not really apologetic about it (or how his younger self was), but I think learned a lesson &amp; won't leave Madoka alone again. The ending scene showing him photographing kids, a puppy &amp; Madoka imply that he was happy to stay home.


[/ QUOTE ]
Seems like the Bosnia thing was a typical Kyosuke screw-up. He told his younger self something about his going there being accidental.

Hanging around a playground, photographing other people's kids, might get you questioned by the police in the USA.

[ QUOTE ]

Hikaru is gorgeous. Period. Long hair suits her &amp; her personality has become charming with the combination of sensitivity, sincerity &amp; young-womanliness. She didn't end her relationship with Madoka, it just got very distanced. Madoka kept it that way IMO - hence Hikaru's remark about cards that said nothing, but she still received gifts. As Kyosuke observed, the girls have a very deep bond, like sisters.


[/ QUOTE ]
Like the pressed flower for Kyosuke, Madoka's gifts were probably her way of saying she still cared. She was never good at stating things directly.

[ QUOTE ]

Hikaru wanted to be equal to Madoka in maturity, before they met again. She is still looking up to Madoka as a role model. And still in love with Kyosuke - her pain still shows when she's having a bath after Kyosuke has passed out. Would she have stayed in the bed with Kyosuke had he not called "Ayukawa" in his sleep? I loved the "nothing happened" dialogue &amp; Hikaru's expressions. Priceless. /images/graemlins/cool.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
I thought Hikaru was a bit embarrassed about how she had acted at the breakup. After she first meets Kyosuke she beats herself up over sounding just like she did when he dumped her. I think she wanted to be confident she would be able to handle herself before talking to Madoka directly.

[ QUOTE ]

Poor Hikaru though she was going to get slapped when Madoka saw Kyosuke.
Madoka loves Hikaru's honesty, freshness &amp; forthrightness. She would hate to lose Hikaru's friendship permanently. That chat at the swimming pool was a very good scene, Hikaru being honest about her feelings, &amp; Madoka appreciating how grown up Hikaru had become. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
Part of it was that she was face-to-face with the person she did not yet have enough confidence to face. I don't know whether she was also concerned about Madoka being angry at her, or she didn't want Madoka to be angry at Kyosuke. Perhaps all of the above.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I wonder what happened to Kyosuke's dad? Maybe he moved to Hokkaido for better scenery.

[/ QUOTE ]

Or re-married even. The lady dentist maybe.


[/ QUOTE ]
Nice thought. Preferable to thinking that he died young.

[ QUOTE ]

So what about temporal paradoxes etc. Is what happens in the story wiped out? If Kyosuke19 reminds himself again, doesn't get hit - then Kyosuke22 will escape being injured in Bosnia (or uses the Power to escape), &amp; comes home safe &amp; sooner to his (still indignant) Madoka.


[/ QUOTE ]
With KOR time travel, I think you just have to take as is. KOR has had enough continuity problems with normal time. Forget about thinking that they should make the time travel bits work out logically. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[ QUOTE ]

What do you all think of the consummation scene? /images/graemlins/wink.gif Kyosuke trying to be sooo sensitive about how physically lustful he feels towards Madoka, &amp; she commenting on the only thing left he hasn't realised about being intimate. Tenderly animated scene &amp; better than many live movies.


[/ QUOTE ]
I liked it, except for Kyosuke's "caveman" speech. That didn't have the desired result on me.

[ QUOTE ]

(1h 25m 16s - that's my cel! /images/graemlins/cool.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]
How about a link to your cel?

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Madoka the "Cinderella girl", made a name &amp; money for herself from a hit song. While still a student. Impressive. /images/graemlins/happy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
It is sort of a mystery why she wasn't a music idol in high school. Lack of inclination would seem the only likely reason.

[/ QUOTE ]
Madoka's hit song was from the aspect of the song's author (composer), and not so much as its performer. Sure, she does some performances, but I definitely get the idea that she would much rather be behind the scenes rather in the spotlight.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

She was pretty broken up, having started smoking again &amp; in a state worse than in movie 1 -with very little hope of seeing her Kyosuke again.


[/ QUOTE ]
Was she smoking because of stress over Kyosuke, or because she was older now?

[/ QUOTE ]
I found this completely out of character. If Madoka hadn't smoked for the last 8 years, I don't think she would be smoking now. If she was trying to keep from smoking to protect her future children.

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like the Bosnia thing was a typical Kyosuke screw-up. He told his younger self something about his going there being accidental.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think it's so much that being IN Bosnia was an accident, but being in the middle of the action was certainly not what was planned. Just being a student, they would not likely let him anywhere near the action.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

So what about temporal paradoxes etc. Is what happens in the story wiped out? If Kyosuke19 reminds himself again, doesn't get hit - then Kyosuke22 will escape being injured in Bosnia (or uses the Power to escape), &amp; comes home safe &amp; sooner to his (still indignant) Madoka.


[/ QUOTE ]
With KOR time travel, I think you just have to take as is. KOR has had enough continuity problems with normal time. Forget about thinking that they should make the time travel bits work out logically. /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that the phone call that he is to make is the one that he received at the beginning of the movie. It's not that it is going to keep him from getting hit by the car, but it DOES keep him from getting killed. That's the impression that I got from the older Kyosuke's instructions.

Overall, this movie was a positive movie, but I wonder if it is much more like a western movie than a Japanese one. It seems that the first movie was what I often see from Japan. The characters moving on with their lives, some with other characters, some separately. With western movies, everyone has to be friends and happy in the end.

While I didn't mind the new character designs for most of the characters, I really did not like the new one for Madoka. TV's Madoka wasn't just mature, but really a beautiful girl. This one seems too old, and much more plain than she should be for 22 years old.

-TC

[Natsume_Maya]

I haven't gotten around to re-watching the movie yet, but some thoughts for now:

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
It doesn't seem like Kyosuke has gotten much smarter with age. 22 year-old Kyosuke's comment about banging Hikaru, without Madoka knowing, seemed quite idiotic. I'd like to think he was just teasing his younger self, and not serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, I think that's just teasing. 22 year old Kyosuke and Madoka seem confident of their relationship with the other. 22yo Kyosuke knows that 19yo Kyosuke would be easily flustered and can't resist teasing him.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
I think the character designs are OK for the story &amp; time settings of this particular movie. I guess if Akemi Takeda had done the characters, Madoka would have had a passing resemblance to Kyoko in Maison Ikkoku.

[/ QUOTE ]

Doesn't one of the Japanese LD boxes have artwork by Takada of the older characters?

I have a KOR fan friend who says he refuses to watch the 2nd movie because they changed the character designs /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[ QUOTE ]
I too had a low opinion of him. For a start, what a selfish jerk to go to Bosnia, put himself in harm's way, &amp; stay there leaving Madoka alone back in Japan not knowing how he was. He was not really apologetic about it (or how his younger self was), but I think learned a lesson &amp; won't leave Madoka alone again. The ending scene showing him photographing kids, a puppy &amp; Madoka imply that he was happy to stay home.

[/ QUOTE ]

Selfish in terms of what ultimately happened, but I think that his decision to go would've been something he discussed with Madoka and something that she would've agreed to before he went.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru wanted to be equal to Madoka in maturity, before they met again. She is still looking up to Madoka as a role model. And still in love with Kyosuke - her pain still shows when she's having a bath after Kyosuke has passed out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hikaru is older and maturer now, and still has feelings for Kyosuke. To me, this suggests that she doesn't just view him as a prize or possession.

In general, I don't think Matsumoto would've envisaged the love triangle where one corner of the relationship is basically just selfish.

[ QUOTE ]
So what about temporal paradoxes etc. Is what happens in the story wiped out? If Kyosuke19 reminds himself again, doesn't get hit - then Kyosuke22 will escape being injured in Bosnia (or uses the Power to escape), &amp; comes home safe &amp; sooner to his (still indignant) Madoka.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Tomcat's interpretation on this. The phonecall is necessary to maintain the cycle - to ensure that when Kyosuke is hit by the car he doesn't die.

BTW, in relation to the Madoka monologue CD single, IIRC it's Madoka asking Kyosuke if he remembers. 'Do you remember? That hot summer day, the stairs up the hill, the wind blowing away my red straw hat, Kasuga-kun standing there... blah blah blah... That summer evening, a sea of fireworks, my heart in pain, then Kasuga-kun by my side, I wished that moment could have lasted forever... blah blah blah...' Then it switches more to the present where she calls him 'Kyosuke' instead of 'Kasuga-kun' and she ends saying that 'Our summer has only just begun.' That's all very rough and I'm paraphrasing.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
I liked it, except for Kyosuke's "caveman" speech. That didn't have the desired result on me.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, an awkward scene, but I guess the animation staff wanted it to be awkward - indecisive, unconfident 19 year old Kyosuke tripping over himself.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

(1h 25m 16s - that's my cel! /images/graemlins/cool.gif )

[/ QUOTE ]
How about a link to your cel?

[/ QUOTE ]

I assume the cel is the one which Wrath of the Njr is currently using as his avatar of Hikaru - looks like a nice cel.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
I think that the phone call that he is to make is the one that he received at the beginning of the movie. It's not that it is going to keep him from getting hit by the car, but it DOES keep him from getting killed. That's the impression that I got from the older Kyosuke's instructions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that is correct, but why did he just make a phone call? Why not go back and wait for him at the crosswalk to insure he wasn't hit? If you can time travel, why accept prevent the accident altogether? That is the kind of question you have to forget about with KOR, IMO.

[Bumble]

Utterly beautiful film, and a far more fitting finale (at least for now) for animated KOR. In the end, ultimately, the status-quo is more or less unchanged since the first film, but it is so much more satisfying to see that the bond linking Kyosuke, Madoka and Hikaru wasn't completely and irrecoverable severed as rendered in Movie 1. That Madoka quietly sent things to Hikaru even after their tense conversation in the first movie is a clever bit of characterisation. Kyosuke or not, they were after all friends for many years previously. Kyosuke's comments as well add some much-needed inner exposition, such as his admission that he really wasn't ignoring Hikaru in Movie 1, but simply had to walk away from her.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Something kept 19 year-old Kyosuke from going directly to Madoka. Part of it seemed to be his confusion, and part of it seemed to be a force larger than him. Perhaps it was just a coincidence that he was transported back to the stairs at the precise moment he tried to make contact with her. Maybe it was the same force that caused the red hat to blow towards him on the stairs long ago. Maybe it was the scriptwriter trying to make the plot work. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually originally attributed this to two things. One, was that Kyosuke feared the worst and that he and Madoka were not actually together in 1994 (he did after all, have a nasty habit of assuming the worst in the TV series!). Two, was that he was feeling immense trepidation that they were indeed together, for over three years by that point. Which means his relationship with Madoka might contain a few new elements that would evoke a mixture of uncomfortable feelings and anticipation! We see his reactions to staying in Madoka's house later on, and naturally enough she reads his thoughts like a book! /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Madoka age 19 is very sexy &amp; cute. Her "gift" chat with Kyosuke after he won the photography prize...is pure gold. As good or better than her other little sexy exchanges with Kyosuke during the TV. She knows her timing &amp; when/how to make the next big step in their relationship come about. Red dress.

[/ QUOTE ]

Every single scene (if not every single frame) directly associated with Madoka's "gift" is pure gold. At last, almost 5 years and she is finally admitting some completely unambiguous true love for Kyosuke. By this point, there's only one way to go, so there's no ambiguity for the audience as to what exactly she is talking about. That (very pleasant for once!) foreboding dream only adds to the approaching inevitability... Madoka's 1991 character design is also helpfully very nice, and works as a good extrapolation from the TV series design. Somehow, I didn't quite like her 1994 design as much. Oddly enough I think it was the lipstick.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Hikaru has grown up &amp; into serious competition for Madoka in the looks department. Something Madoka probably realised would happen, &amp; which may have made her want to get Kyosuke more urgently.
Compare Hikaru at 20 with Madoka at 19, rather than 22. Is it any wonder Kyosuke at 19 was virtually drooling over Hikaru. She only 1 year older, giggly, bubbly &amp; no longer shrill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that's an understatement about Hikaru! Interesting that she grew out her hair (echoing Kyosuke's comments to 10-year old Madoka at the end of the TV series). I actually particularly like her look after she's had her bath; her hair's almost a fusion of her new hairstyle and old one, at least to me. At this point, she probably is serious competition for Madoka either consciously or not. Makes it interesting to wonder what 22 year old Kyosuke's attitude would be like when he gets to meet her!

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
She was pretty broken up, having started smoking again &amp; in a state worse than in movie 1 -with very little hope of seeing her Kyosuke again.

[/ QUOTE ]

This really, really put me off 22 year old Madoka...at least a little. After establishing how important it was for the beginning of her feelings for Kyosuke to actually get her to quit smoking in the TV series, she's now started again? I'm surprised 19 year old Kyosuke never told 1991 Madoka that his future self would be alive and well at the end of it all.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
I too had a low opinion of him. For a start, what a selfish jerk to go to Bosnia, put himself in harm's way, &amp; stay there leaving Madoka alone back in Japan not knowing how he was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't he gone for six months? Let's put things into perspective...six months in a war zone, away from Madoka of all people? Yes, Kyosuke still needs his head examined badly! No wonder Madoka threatened him with the ultimate punishment! /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
What do you all think of the consummation scene? Kyosuke trying to be sooo sensitive about how physically lustful he feels towards Madoka, &amp; she commenting on the only thing left he hasn't realised about being intimate. Tenderly animated scene &amp; better than many live movies.

[/ QUOTE ]

Like I agreed with you before, anything to do with Madoka's "gift" is indeed pure gold. I don't think Madoka has ever been depicted as so vulnerable (perfectly understandable, given the situation). I really like the little details like Madoka wanting the lights off, Kyosuke stumbling around like a fool as always, and Madoka calmly accepting Kyosuke even with his faults. And if ever there was a time for Kyosuke to actually use "Madoka", this had to be it! Utterly, utterly beautiful scene. Makes all the pain in Movie 1 truly worth it.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
It doesn't seem like Kyosuke has gotten much smarter with age. 22 year-old Kyosuke's comment about banging Hikaru, without Madoka knowing, seemed quite idiotic. I'd like to think he was just teasing his younger self, and not serious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd like to think that too. If I recall, the novel states that he was indeed joking. Interesting that they made it more ambiguous in the animation.

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
In general, I don't think Matsumoto would've envisaged the love triangle where one corner of the relationship is basically just selfish.

[/ QUOTE ]

Retroactively that's what makes Movie 1 so painful to watch with regards to Hikaru. Whether or not she was simply in deep infatuation with Kyosuke for the most part in the beginning, she clearly did have deep feelings for him when they finally broke up, and even beyond.

[Isuzu Inugami]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the NJR said:

This movie is truer to the spirit of KOR TV for characters &amp; is like a feature length OVA really.

[/ QUOTE ]

I imagine the first film was not what a lot of the fans were expecting--this one makes up for it, without tryint to deny it happened. The Power is back to move the plot along.

[ QUOTE ]


Compare Hikaru at 20 with Madoka at 19, rather than 22. Is it any wonder Kyosuke at 19 was virtually drooling over Hikaru. She only 1 year older, giggly, bubbly &amp; no longer shrill.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh heck, who's Hikaru's voice actress? She does a stunning job, possibly better than anyone else in the film, depictiong a Hikaru who really is three years more mature, but is still recognizably Hikaru.

[ QUOTE ]

I think [Kyosoke] was disoriented for awhile, &amp; then he met Hikaru (who didn't think he should look older than he did?).

[/ QUOTE ]

She's not seen him for three years, so he looks exactly as she remembers and imagines him. She probably wouldn't realize how odd that was at first.

[ QUOTE ]
After getting over those two shocks, Kyosuke did go to Madoka's house, watched the piano scene &amp; was about to drop in, when he passed out &amp; was transported back to the steps.

I wondered about the fact that if there is a supernatural aspect to the steps as Kyosuke thought there might be, the uneasy feeling ordinary people might get from it could back up Hikaru's explanation that people avoided them, preferring the long way round. Hikaru would not be bothered by such feelings, &amp; possibly Madoke might have been intrigued in the past.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think the steps are some sort of personal power spot to him. Perhaps as he was fading out of existence, he subconsciously went there because it was such an important place for him, and it gave him a bit of stability.

Well, actually I blame the writers, but it's a theory.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
He must have broken up with Shiori. And he must have been watching Madoka. Perhaps he was working with her before Kyosuke went to Bosnia, &amp; moved closer to her after the disappearance was reported.


[/ QUOTE ]

I was pretty disappointed in how sleazy he had become. But was he chasing Madoka out of lust, or chasing her musical talent?

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
I got the feeling that he knew she was going to be a hot property in the music world and wanted a piece of it. Actually, it seemed like he wanted to be in control of it. His comment about him being the only one who can save her could probably be turned on its head. He probably wanted her to save his career.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah, what Amasawa said. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


[ QUOTE ]

It is sort of a mystery why she wasn't a music idol in high school. Lack of inclination would seem the only likely reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Madoka isn't Maaya Sakamoto, she's Yoko Kanno. She's gifted with the talent to compose the music, rather than being the star.

[ QUOTE ]


Was she smoking because of stress over Kyosuke, or because she was older now?


[/ QUOTE ]
I took it to mean that she thought Kyosuke was dead. Which is the state the movie implies he's in as far as anyone in 1994 knows, but then we get the news reports about a search for him. How long has he been missing? It seems a weak element in the film. Lacking any confirmation of his death, I think it would take Madoka quite a while to lose enough hope to take up smoking again. I read the smoking as reflecting off the "You won't be able to have healthy babies" comment at the start of the TV series. By smoking, she's basically started to believe that Kyosuke is dead, and is saying that he was the only man she'll ever love, so there won't be any babies to worry over.

[ QUOTE ]


Seems like the Bosnia thing was a typical Kyosuke screw-up. He told his younger self something about his going there being accidental.

[/ QUOTE ]

As 22 year old Kyo, he may know he has to go there in order that everything happen as it happened in the past. If it doesn't, then 19 year old Kyo can't make the phone call to warn himself, and he'll die in the car accident. But it seems like maybe he could have warned Madoka about what was coming down--or would that have messed things up as well? Madoka needs to be distraught, playing "Kyosuke #1" to give Kyo that last burst of effort to bring his 22 year old self back.... How much do you dare mess with time?

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Hikaru is gorgeous. Period. Long hair suits her &amp; her personality has become charming with the combination of sensitivity, sincerity &amp; young-womanliness. She didn't end her relationship with Madoka, it just got very distanced. Madoka kept it that way IMO - hence Hikaru's remark about cards that said nothing, but she still received gifts. As Kyosuke observed, the girls have a very deep bond, like sisters.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are still trying to be friends over the three years, but they need time and distance to heal. The cards (I thought Hikaru said her own cards said nothing?) and gifts are a way of holding onto that friendship when it's at its most delicate. Hikaru says she couldn't bring herself to talk to Madoka until now.

[ QUOTE ]

Hikaru wanted to be equal to Madoka in maturity, before they met again. She is still looking up to Madoka as a role model. And still in love with Kyosuke - her pain still shows when she's having a bath after Kyosuke has passed out. Would she have stayed in the bed with Kyosuke had he not called "Ayukawa" in his sleep? I loved the "nothing happened" dialogue &amp; Hikaru's expressions. Priceless. /images/graemlins/cool.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in the morning she teases Kyosuke in a very Madoka-like way!

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the NJR said:

What do you all think of the consummation scene? /images/graemlins/wink.gif Kyosuke trying to be sooo sensitive about how physically lustful he feels towards Madoka, &amp; she commenting on the only thing left he hasn't realised about being intimate. Tenderly animated scene &amp; better than many live movies.


[/ QUOTE ]

It went on far too long. Really, it was a nice scene to begin with, but the "caveman" business and the condom/"It's a safe time of the month for me" made me think I'd wandered into someone's doujinshi. It could have been done just as well, or better, at half the length.

Really, the whole conclusion to the film is drawn way out, considering the real climax of the film is Kyo19 summoning Kyo22 out of the void. I don't mind for the most part--this is the last of KOR, so we can take our time saying goodbye.


...I think Kyo 22 is teasing Kyo 19 over Hikaru--or punishing him for being tempted by her. But he is a jerk over forgetting when he started calling Madoka "Madoka." The part of the film I find hardest to swallow. They do seem to have a good relationship otherwise.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the phone call that he is to make is the one that he received at the beginning of the movie. It's not that it is going to keep him from getting hit by the car, but it DOES keep him from getting killed. That's the impression that I got from the older Kyosuke's instructions.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thinking back older Kyosuke did say "you would have died a virgin" to his younger self. So perhaps in the time loop we're watching, the call at the start is because of the ending. Its all a reminiscence flashback as the whole story has always been..."when I was 19 and when I was 22.." Perhaps its older-still Kyosuke, telling his children of the early Madoka days...

Madoka smoking is one of the illustrations for SKOR novel 1. I think its used as a sign of the great stress &amp; despair she is suffering. She puts on a brave face for the pop star, but once he's gone, she crumples. Kyosuke's Grandfather's call came at the right time!

In Bosnia, Kyosuke could have zapped himself in &amp; out of combat zones without being spotted, &amp; I think Granfather said that he could have saved himself/his soul by jumping from the paranormal medium he had been flung to, had younger Kyosuke's soul not bumped into him.

Its his love for Madoka that spurred older Kyosuke back. Perhaps what he had witnessed in Bosnia made him not want to return, thus he was content to be in the limbo dimension. When Madoka started playing Kyosuke #1, it reached him through younger Kyosuke as a conduit, which is why the latter knows what the tune is called - &amp; his fragile telepathic link passed the music through, which woke older Kyosuke, resulting in the huge amount of power being passed down enabling older Kyosuke to reappear or signal/summon the search parties looking for him.

[ QUOTE ]
While I didn't mind the new character designs for most of the characters, I really did not like the new one for Madoka. TV's Madoka wasn't just mature, but really a beautiful girl. This one seems too old, and much more plain than she should be for 22 years old.

[/ QUOTE ]

She's up against the living doll Hikaru has become. But as I said before, Madoka at 19, Hikaru's age, is really sexy. Watch the "motto motto" scene again.

Thinking she had lost her Kyosuke probably added a few years to Madoka. She tells "shonen" Kyosuke she has circles under her eyes IIRC. Screen cap of the movie must be older Madoka's "Uncle Sam" like gesture pointing at Kyosuke (&amp; the audience) saying "you've got perverted eyes". And younger Kyosuke thought he was going to get some action with older Madoka! /images/graemlins/stunned1.gif Did he forget his older self might not be crazy about that either?! D'oh!
At the end older Madoka in her mini skirt &amp; teasing older Kyosuke is how I remember her <font color="orange">hot! Sex-o </font>


IMO this movie is really the end of KOR's beginning. Unlike MI, no marriage or family ending, though hopefully Madoka's wish for children with Kyosuke will come true. Hikaru will be back &amp; still interested in Kyosuke on &amp; off. What's left is more adult in life story interest, than the target demographic would care for. Perhaps why the novels were made more mature &amp; wordly. They are for KOR fans who have aged along with the original story &amp; characters.
SKOR II novel is a dark story about events in Madoka's past coming back to haunt her &amp; too far away from the relationship saga. SKOR III is a happier novel made up of a 20s Madoka &amp; Kyosuke story &amp; a manga-days story.

KOR manga was cancelled &amp; wound to a quick ending as interest in non-shoujo boy-&amp;-girl romance manga stories was dropping. Video Girl Ai &amp; more openly ecchi manga took the place of non-shoujo romance in publications.

I'll get a photobucket a/c &amp; post some cel pics etc...

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
I think that the phone call that he is to make is the one that he received at the beginning of the movie. It's not that it is going to keep him from getting hit by the car, but it DOES keep him from getting killed. That's the impression that I got from the older Kyosuke's instructions.

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, that is correct, but why did he just make a phone call? Why not go back and wait for him at the crosswalk to insure he wasn't hit? If you can time travel, why accept prevent the accident altogether? That is the kind of question you have to forget about with KOR, IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]
19 year old Kyosuke didn't really time travel, though. Think of it more as an astral projection. His real body, the one that 22 year old Kyosuke sends him back to, remained in the past. He made the phone call after he returned. He COULD have gone back in time, but perhaps the accident actually helped move his relationship forward with Madoka.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of NJR said:
IMO this movie is really the end of KOR's beginning. Unlike MI, no marriage or family ending, though hopefully Madoka's wish for children with Kyosuke will come true. Hikaru will be back &amp; still interested in Kyosuke on &amp; off. What's left is more adult in life story interest, than the target demographic would care for. Perhaps why the novels were made more mature &amp; wordly. They are for KOR fans who have aged along with the original story &amp; characters.

[/ QUOTE ]
SKOR is the end of their childhood. Think of it in metaphorical terms of the seasons. Spring is childhood (Spring is for Idols), Summer is adulthood, and autumn is old age. This is "Summer's Beginning", so it shows the transition from childhood to being adults. This had a couple aspects. The first is the obvious next step in Kyosuke's and Madoka's relationship, certainly into a more adult relationship. The second... Kyosuke and Madoka are both 22, but the weather is fairly warm, so this has to be close to the end of their 4 years in college. They are soon going to have to move into the adult work place. Finding their place in life.

The interesting part of the title is that it can't literally be the beginning of summer. I'm not sure what the official date summer begins in Japan, but it should be real close to the US, some time in June. Since Madoka's would be turning 23 in early May, the movie takes place in the spring.

I also think that everyone is too hard on Kyosuke for going to Bosnia. I'm sure that he discussed it with Madoka before agreeing to go, but as it would have been a very important step in his career as a photographer, I'm sure that she would have encouraged him to go, rather than asking him to stay. I'm also quite sure that they would have stayed in contact for most of it, just loosing contact when all hell breaks loose.

It's pretty clear that Kyosuke doesn't desire to just be a portrait photographer, but a news photographer, or maybe a photojournalist. He's going to have to do quite a bit or travelling to follow his dreams, and I seriously doubt that Madoka is going to be travelling with him every time. Likewise, I imagine that as a composer, she is going to be doing some traveling as well.

I doubt that either one is going to stay away from the other as long any more. Probably just a couple weeks at a time.

-TC

[plaidwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Hikaru is gorgeous. Period. Long hair suits her &amp; her personality has become charming with the combination of sensitivity, sincerity &amp; young-womanliness. She didn't end her relationship with Madoka, it just got very distanced. Madoka kept it that way IMO - hence Hikaru's remark about cards that said nothing, but she still received gifts. As Kyosuke observed, the girls have a very deep bond, like sisters.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are still trying to be friends over the three years, but they need time and distance to heal. The cards (I thought Hikaru said her own cards said nothing?) and gifts are a way of holding onto that friendship when it's at its most delicate. Hikaru says she couldn't bring herself to talk to Madoka until now.

[ QUOTE ]

Hikaru wanted to be equal to Madoka in maturity, before they met again. She is still looking up to Madoka as a role model. And still in love with Kyosuke - her pain still shows when she's having a bath after Kyosuke has passed out. Would she have stayed in the bed with Kyosuke had he not called "Ayukawa" in his sleep? I loved the "nothing happened" dialogue &amp; Hikaru's expressions. Priceless. /images/graemlins/cool.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in the morning she teases Kyosuke in a very Madoka-like way!


[/ QUOTE ]

Finale....the bonds have started to heal when you see the final shot of the movie...pictures of all three....looking in the same direction again...

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
He COULD have gone back in time, but perhaps the accident actually helped move his relationship forward with Madoka.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're right. The first time Madoka calls him "Kyosuke" is at the door of the operating theatre, when Master is holding her back. Good ol' Master, there for her even then. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Before then perhaps Madoka was worried or uncertain about having made her promise. Kyosuke noted her eyes looked sad (when they normally looked angry?!)

[ QUOTE ]
He COULD have gone back in time, but perhaps the accident actually helped move his relationship forward with Madoka.

[/ QUOTE ]

More literal translation of the Japanese title is "And Then There Was Summer". Probably something lost in interpretation, but perhaps, if an idiom, it implies everything is going to turn out fine.

[ QUOTE ]
I also think that everyone is too hard on Kyosuke for going to Bosnia. I'm sure that he discussed it with Madoka before agreeing to go, but as it would have been a very important step in his career as a photographer, I'm sure that she would have encouraged him to go, rather than asking him to stay. I'm also quite sure that they would have stayed in contact for most of it, just loosing contact when all hell breaks loose.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, there is that minor tiff, about Kyosuke's use of "nothing", that Madoka got angry about, saying he used it before going to Bosnia.
Actually the 22 year olds airport scene is pretty neat and needed , from when Madoka pokes her head round the corner (your avatar), their little head-to-head about younger Kyosuke &amp; Hikaru, the mock fight, final kiss &amp; Madoka's no-sex tease. Definitely room for some stories &amp; anime of the older trio IMO. OVAs maybe.

[ QUOTE ]
It's pretty clear that Kyosuke doesn't desire to just be a portrait photographer, but a news photographer, or maybe a photojournalist. He's going to have to do quite a bit or travelling to follow his dreams, and I seriously doubt that Madoka is going to be travelling with him every time. Likewise, I imagine that as a composer, she is going to be doing some traveling as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he's after Pulitzers! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif A sort of Lois Lane-Jimmy Olsen rolled into one! /images/graemlins/stunned0.gif But Kyosuke &amp; Madoka will be closer from now on hopefully, he being more considerate. Madoka also won't want to go through the hell she suffered again - 7 years &amp; now 2 almost-heartbreaks already! Next time Kyosuke might lose her.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
I imagine the first film was not what a lot of the fans were expecting--this one makes up for it, without tryint to deny it happened. The Power is back to move the plot along.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why this movie is so good. It pays tribute to, &amp; carries on from TV, OVAs &amp; movie 1 almost seamlessly. Movie 1 is a great movie, &amp; its poignancy is what makes this tieing-up sequel so powerful emotionally &amp; feeds the need to return the feelgood classic KOR TV &amp; OVAs had.

[ QUOTE ]
Oh heck, who's Hikaru's voice actress? She does a stunning job, possibly better than anyone else in the film, depicting a Hikaru who really is three years more mature, but is still recognizably Hikaru.

[/ QUOTE ]

Erico Hara. Her best role is Hikaru. I like her in Gall Force &amp; ZZ Gundam (as Elle, a tomboy blond bombshell) too. She's done other characters I haven't watched yet. Honda Chieko (Kurumi) is in Gall Force as well.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the steps are some sort of personal power spot to him. Perhaps as he was fading out of existence, he subconsciously went there because it was such an important place for him, and it gave him a bit of stability.

[/ QUOTE ]

In episodes 47 &amp; 48 "Green House", where the Kasugas live was being built. In fact the site where Kyosuke saved chibi-Madoka from being killed falling &amp; being impaled with a large expenditure of the Power.
Maybe the steps were being built at the same time. Perhaps some residual power, &amp; (for Madoka) location memory draws Kyosuke &amp; her respectively to the place.

In SKOR, Madoka has lost her teen sense of wonder, but she knows enough of Kyosuke's family power to accept its existence &amp; use. (Which suggests that her memory of eps 47 &amp; 48 remains.)

The pop guy was smitten with Madoka in the OVAs. I think he would have dumped Shiori &amp; taken Madoka, had Madoka been interested in him.
Perhaps he was that way anyway. The OVAs adventure may have caused him to pause, but did not have a lasting affect.

[ QUOTE ]
As 22 year old Kyo, he may know he has to go there in order that everything happen as it happened in the past. If it doesn't, then 19 year old Kyo can't make the phone call to warn himself, and he'll die in the car accident. But it seems like maybe he could have warned Madoka about what was coming down--or would that have messed things up as well? Madoka needs to be distraught, playing "Kyosuke #1" to give Kyo that last burst of effort to bring his 22 year old self back.... How much do you dare mess with time?

[/ QUOTE ]

Pre-destination? Its all possible in the KOR universe. It follows the kind of rukes Grandfather would have told him as well.

[ QUOTE ]
The cards (I thought Hikaru said her own cards said nothing?) and gifts are a way

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure its Madoka's replies to Hikaru, or cards.

[ QUOTE ]
(Hikaru) teases Kyosuke in a very Madoka-like way!

[/ QUOTE ]

The 2 girls have more in common than first impression. The tempting of Jingoro in Cat/Fish OVA also showed how alike they could be at play.

[ QUOTE ]
Really, the whole conclusion to the film is drawn way out, considering the real climax of the film is Kyo19 summoning Kyo22 out of the void. I don't mind for the most part--this is the last of KOR, so we can take our time saying goodbye.

[/ QUOTE ]

The film's ending is also the anime story's ending, 58th story!
They didn't want to make Kyosuke a one-dimensional character in a sexual context, but someone who really cares about his lover as a person &amp; future lifelong partner as an equal. The scene is best watching how Madoka's expressions change as she listens to him - fondness, tearful emotion, feminine softness &amp; love. Its when the new character designs are best fitting &amp; animated IMO.

Remembering how they were that evening, calling Madoka "Madoka" for the first time &amp; life after that night, probably helped older Kyosuke remember how precious she is to him.

[Natsume_Maya]

Managed to watch the movie again.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
This movie is truer to the spirit of KOR TV for characters &amp; is like a feature length OVA really.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Kinda strange then that Matsumoto hated the Shin KOR story.

[ QUOTE ]
The twins don't seem any different. Kurumi a 20 year old brat!

[/ QUOTE ]

Kurumi still sounds like the baby of the family.

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
Oh heck, who's Hikaru's voice actress? She does a stunning job, possibly better than anyone else in the film, depictiong a Hikaru who really is three years more mature, but is still recognizably Hikaru.

[/ QUOTE ]

The VA is Hara Eriko. I do think that in the two movies it's Hikaru's character in which we see the most development, even though the focal point of the love story is Kyosuke and Madoka.

For me, one of the most poignant and moving scenes in this movie was when Kyosuke in his drunken stupor at the hotel bedroom and Hikaru walks down the middle between the two single beds, and you know she's weighing in her mind which bed she should lie down on. Also when she does lie down next to Kyosuke and looks at him with a sad look on her face - she's lying next to the guy she loves, but even so it's opening old wounds.

[ QUOTE ]
I think the steps are some sort of personal power spot to him. Perhaps as he was fading out of existence, he subconsciously went there because it was such an important place for him, and it gave him a bit of stability.

[/ QUOTE ]

I had the same thought. Because of his sentimental attachment to those stairs, when he starts to disappear, it is at the stairs that he's able to re-form.

[ QUOTE ]
Really, it was a nice scene to begin with, but the "caveman" business and the condom/"It's a safe time of the month for me" made me think I'd wandered into someone's doujinshi.

[/ QUOTE ]

I get the feeling that's the sort of thing Matsumoto didn't like about the story. Whereas the KOR TV series was more about romantic love (though with some reference to the physical charms of Madoka and to a lesser extent Hikaru), the second movie had more explicit reference to sex/virginity than it had to love.

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Perhaps why the novels were made more mature &amp; wordly. They are for KOR fans who have aged along with the original story &amp; characters.
SKOR II novel is a dark story about events in Madoka's past coming back to haunt her &amp; too far away from the relationship saga. SKOR III is a happier novel made up of a 20s Madoka &amp; Kyosuke story &amp; a manga-days story.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the SKOR II was the (very stupid) pyramid mystery story and that SKOR III contained a few shorter stories including the story about Madoka's past.

[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
19 year old Kyosuke didn't really time travel, though. Think of it more as an astral projection. His real body, the one that 22 year old Kyosuke sends him back to, remained in the past. He made the phone call after he returned. He COULD have gone back in time, but perhaps the accident actually helped move his relationship forward with Madoka.

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes me wonder though: as you say, Kyosuke was sort of astrally projecting. 22 year old Kyosuke tells him that when he returns he'll need Grandpa's help to arrange the phone call. So when 19 year old Kyosuke returns, where does he return? I would have thought to his body. If so, how does he arrange a phone call with Grandpa without the Kyosuke who's going to be hit by the car knowing in advance...?

[ QUOTE ]
SKOR is the end of their childhood. Think of it in metaphorical terms of the seasons. Spring is childhood (Spring is for Idols), Summer is adulthood, and autumn is old age.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting, though, that when Madoka and Kyosuke first met at the stairs, it was summer, and when the first movie takes place, it was also summer.

Other thoughts:

- Great music by Kajiura Yuki. I love "Kyosuke No. 1", even if the theme is repeated quite a bit on the OST CD.

- IIRC in past anime episodes, the building was known as Green House. In this movie it's known as Green Castle.

- The ABCB is still around in 1991. In the manga IIRC Master closed the cafe at the end (and the issue of the fact that school kids were working at his cafe in breach of school rules was referred to).

- Why was Kyosuke running to the train anyway? In the first movie we see that he rode a scooter to the uni. What happened to his scooter?

- I find it strange hearing Madoka call Kyosuke "Kyosuke", Kyosuke calling Madoka "Madoka" and Hikaru calling Kyosuke "Kasuga-sempai". (And Kurumi calling Kyosuke "Kyosuke-kun".)

- Nice animation of Hayakawa Mitsuru playing the piano - they actually synchronised the hand movements with the notes.

- I've never liked Hikaru's dance sequence. The animation seems a bit slow for someone dancing. And I never liked the insert song "Love is Power". Apart from the tune in general, the English pronounciation was poor enough that it was only after I'd watched the movie for the fourth or fifth time that I realised the song was actually sung in English... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

- One scene I did like was the three main characters in the pool - the triangle of bonds restored. A bit contrived having them swim around in a circle (triangle?), didn't seem so realistic, yet I found the scene sweet, and the good insert song helped too I think.

- I liked the ending. I found it uplifting, particularly after the first movie, and the BGM by Kajiura was fitting and used to good effect in that scene. The "photos" of the three at the very end were a bit artificial, but it does recall the photo motif used in the TV episodes of the anime (something not used in the first movie).

- I note that Kyosuke seems to have decided to focus on photographing people, whereas his dad was a landscape photographer primarily.

- Liked the ending theme song (Daydream?) as well.

- Looking forward to the release of the new print, digitally remastered R2 DVD box set for the TV series next year. It'll be a good time to watch the series through again /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
Plaid Wolf said:
[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Hikaru is gorgeous. Period. Long hair suits her &amp; her personality has become charming with the combination of sensitivity, sincerity &amp; young-womanliness. She didn't end her relationship with Madoka, it just got very distanced. Madoka kept it that way IMO - hence Hikaru's remark about cards that said nothing, but she still received gifts. As Kyosuke observed, the girls have a very deep bond, like sisters.

[/ QUOTE ]

They are still trying to be friends over the three years, but they need time and distance to heal. The cards (I thought Hikaru said her own cards said nothing?) and gifts are a way of holding onto that friendship when it's at its most delicate. Hikaru says she couldn't bring herself to talk to Madoka until now.

[ QUOTE ]

Hikaru wanted to be equal to Madoka in maturity, before they met again. She is still looking up to Madoka as a role model. And still in love with Kyosuke - her pain still shows when she's having a bath after Kyosuke has passed out. Would she have stayed in the bed with Kyosuke had he not called "Ayukawa" in his sleep? I loved the "nothing happened" dialogue &amp; Hikaru's expressions. Priceless. /images/graemlins/cool.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, in the morning she teases Kyosuke in a very Madoka-like way!


[/ QUOTE ]

Finale....the bonds have started to heal when you see the final shot of the movie...pictures of all three....looking in the same direction again...

[/ QUOTE ]

Its a very..."Happy Ever After" but final ending IMO. Upbeat J-pop song. I would have preferred Wada Kanako there of all places, though both in-episode songs; Hikaru's dance "Love is Power" - with its sexy lyrics &amp; the swimming "Don't Be Afraid" fit nicely into the mood of those scenes. (English lyrics can be got by switching language track.)

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
19 year old Kyosuke didn't really time travel, though. Think of it more as an astral projection. His real body, the one that 22 year old Kyosuke sends him back to, remained in the past. He made the phone call after he returned. He COULD have gone back in time, but perhaps the accident actually helped move his relationship forward with Madoka.

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes me wonder though: as you say, Kyosuke was sort of astrally projecting. 22 year old Kyosuke tells him that when he returns he'll need Grandpa's help to arrange the phone call. So when 19 year old Kyosuke returns, where does he return? I would have thought to his body. If so, how does he arrange a phone call with Grandpa without the Kyosuke who's going to be hit by the car knowing in advance...?


[/ QUOTE ]
He probably returns to his body in the hospital, after the accident. So, the phone call would be calling back through time to before the accident. If he had returned to a time before the accident he could have avoided it altogether. I think you just have to take it on faith that it would not be possible, or not desirable.

[ QUOTE ]

- I've never liked Hikaru's dance sequence. The animation seems a bit slow for someone dancing. And I never liked the insert song "Love is Power". Apart from the tune in general, the English pronounciation was poor enough that it was only after I'd watched the movie for the fourth or fifth time that I realised the song was actually sung in English... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
I couldn't figure out whether they intended for Hikaru to look somewhat awkward, or they just did a bad job animating her. It is no wonder she didn't get the part. She didn't really seem to be dancing; more like posing, and not doing that well. Some of the positions she takes are rather unattractive, IMO.

[ QUOTE ]

- One scene I did like was the three main characters in the pool - the triangle of bonds restored. A bit contrived having them swim around in a circle (triangle?), didn't seem so realistic, yet I found the scene sweet, and the good insert song helped too I think.


[/ QUOTE ]
I kept thinking Kyosuke would vanish before they could get him to Ojiisan. They certainly were casual about something that seemed critical.

[ QUOTE ]

- I note that Kyosuke seems to have decided to focus on photographing people, whereas his dad was a landscape photographer primarily.


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm with his dad on that one. I much prefer shooting and viewing landscapes than people shots.

[ QUOTE ]

- Looking forward to the release of the new print, digitally remastered R2 DVD box set for the TV series next year. It'll be a good time to watch the series through again /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I wonder if anyone will license those for R1? It would be interesting if someone decided to dub it.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Bumble said:
[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
I too had a low opinion of him. For a start, what a selfish jerk to go to Bosnia, put himself in harm's way, &amp; stay there leaving Madoka alone back in Japan not knowing how he was.

[/ QUOTE ]

Wasn't he gone for six months? Let's put things into perspective...six months in a war zone, away from Madoka of all people? Yes, Kyosuke still needs his head examined badly! No wonder Madoka threatened him with the ultimate punishment! /images/graemlins/happy.gif


[/ QUOTE ]
IIRC, Madoka complains about him being gone for three months. This is at the airport after 19 year-old Kyosuke has returned to his time.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Would she [Hikaru] have stayed in the bed with Kyosuke had he not called "Ayukawa" in his sleep?


[/ QUOTE ]
I think so. At that point she thought Kyosuke had told her his relationship with Madoka was not going well. She thought Kyosuke was hiding from Madoka, in spite of everyone thinking he was lost in Bosnia (TV news reports). If Kyosuke and Madoka were breaking up, perhaps she had a chance. She was risking getting rejected again, but it was worth the risk.

As soon as Kyosuke said, "Ayukawa" Hikaru knew that he still loved Madoka, and withdrew her advances.

[Njr Scrawl]

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Amasawa said:
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Wrath of the Njr said:
Would she [Hikaru] have stayed in the bed with Kyosuke had he not called "Ayukawa" in his sleep?


[/ QUOTE ]
I think so. At that point she thought Kyosuke had told her his relationship with Madoka was not going well. She thought Kyosuke was hiding from Madoka, in spite of everyone thinking he was lost in Bosnia (TV news reports). If Kyosuke and Madoka were breaking up, perhaps she had a chance. She was risking getting rejected again, but it was worth the risk.

As soon as Kyosuke said, "Ayukawa" Hikaru knew that he still loved Madoka, and withdrew her advances.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the real core question of the story, right? /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Heh, it didn't occur to me before that Hikaru might have thought Kyosuke was back from Bosnia already, but was deliberately hiding from Madoka, instead of returning to her. What an excuse, MIA, to avoid being searched for in Japan!

Even if Hikaru had stayed in the bed, I don't think she would have done much on her own initiative, apart from cuddle up to him maybe.

Both Kyosuke's said she was a "good girl" &amp; by that I took it to mean thy thought Hikaru would not steal from her best friend, or indulge herself with either, if Madoka was still in with a chance, or likely to be upset.

Hikaru was happy enough with her Kyosuke fix, &amp; what almost happened. I think she had put most of her inner torment/demons/feelings to rest about Kyosuke &amp; Madoka, &amp; also for the first time being able speaking to Madoka woman to woman, and getting respect, so healing their relationship, by expressing how she felt. I think Madoka now better understood from her own experience in the movie, how strongly Hikaru was affected by losing Kyosuke.

A Hikaru spinoff series or movie based in New York &amp; then returning to Japan would be nice. ("Kaleido Orange Road" anyone?) Her dance moves IMO, were meant to be a bit awkward, showing she still has some perfecting to do. The end (red T-shirt) animated dance class showed she was getting better fluidity of movement as far as it went. For dramatic acting, Hikaru is a natural - if she remembers her lines. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

I kinda feel sorry for the guy she "said goodbye to" in Japan, if he was persistent.

[Amasawa]

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Wrath of the Njr said:
Heh, it didn't occur to me before that Hikaru might have thought Kyosuke was back from Bosnia already, but was deliberately hiding from Madoka, instead of returning to her. What an excuse, MIA, to avoid being searched for in Japan!


[/ QUOTE ]
Hikaru sees the TV report of Kyosuke missing in Bosnia after she first meets him. She meets him a second time at the top of The Stairs. I believe she intentionally went looking for him. When she finds him on the stairs, she says she knew he would be there. This is in contrast to Madoka who is hunting for him elsewhere. Madoka doesn't think to look at the stairs until late in the evening. By that time Kyosuke and Hikaru are on a train to her hotel. I am reminded of I was a Cat, I was a Fish where Hikaru recognized Kyosuke in both fish and cat form, but Modoka only recognized the indecisive behavior.

At some point, she asks him why he is hiding from Madoka. IIRC, he gives a non-answer and she apologizes for prying.

Hikaru narrowly misses meeting the older Kyosuke at the airport. That would have been a shocking meeting for Hikaru. I wonder if she hears the news of his return on the news elsewhere? If she sorts it out with the dates, there would be some things for her to ponder.

It is also interesting that the first meeting between Hikaru and Kyosuke took place on stairs, and Kyosuke was counting the stairs. These stairs were put up where he was hit by a car. Kyosuke speculates that it was because of his accident.

So, there is a mystical connection to Kyosuke's meeting Hikaru. Kyosuke materializes on The Stairs after almost being killed by a car. He meets Hikaru on stairs over the scene of the accident. As they stand together talking on the bridge, they are probably right over the place Kyosuke was hit.

I guess I have to abandon my idea that Hikaru's relationship to Kyosuke was superficial.

[Tomcat]

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Wrath of the Njr said:
Even if Hikaru had stayed in the bed, I don't think she would have done much on her own initiative, apart from cuddle up to him maybe.

[/ QUOTE ]
I was thinking the same thing. Kyosuke was clearly not in any shape to do much except sleep it off. The boy is such a light weight pansy. Hikaru probably would have snuggled up close to him. Sometimes just the warmth of the person you love's body is better than any possible sex. It can make a person feel very, very secure. I'm sure she would like to feel that, even if it's just an illusion.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru was happy enough with her Kyosuke fix, &amp; what almost happened. I think she had put most of her inner torment/demons/feelings to rest about Kyosuke &amp; Madoka, &amp; also for the first time being able speaking to Madoka woman to woman, and getting respect, so healing their relationship, by expressing how she felt. I think Madoka now better understood from her own experience in the movie, how strongly Hikaru was affected by losing Kyosuke.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think that the thing that hurt Hikaru the most over the past 3 years was the loss of her two best friends. Even if she was extremely upset with loosing Kyosuke as her boyfriend, she would have soon realized that she ended up loosing him as a friend too, and even worse, not having her best friend, the person that was always there for her. Reuniting with Kyosuke was good for her, but Madoka was more important. And I think Madoka might have felt the same way.

[ QUOTE ]
Her dance moves IMO, were meant to be a bit awkward, showing she still has some perfecting to do. The end (red T-shirt) animated dance class showed she was getting better fluidity of movement as far as it went. For dramatic acting, Hikaru is a natural - if she remembers her lines.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't quite understand her desire to be in the musicals. She is a natural actress, so I definitely see the stage acting, but she wasn't really musically inclined, so I'm not sure why she would try for musicals. Maybe this is the easiest way into stage acting? Maybe she wants her name in lights on Broadway?

Any, you already answered the question, but I definitely would say that when Kyosuke returned to 1991, he returned to his body in the hospital. If he hadn't, he would definitely have died.

-TC

[Tomcat]

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Amasawa said:
I guess I have to abandon my idea that Hikaru's relationship to Kyosuke was superficial.

[/ QUOTE ]
The reason why Hikaru liked Kyosuke WAS superficial, and all about her wants, rather than his feelings. That's not to say that she didn't really like him.

The truth of it is that she probably didn't really recognize her true feelings, or the reason why she really liked Kyosuke until he made his feelings clear to her. There is a reason the saying of "not knowing what you have until it's gone" exists. I'm sure that after she lost access to him, she started to look over all the really great things that he did for her, and realize that he was a really great guy, and so much more than what she had been after before. While he was her "darling", she mostly took him for granted.

I'm also going to speculate that Kyosuke was her first "boyfriend". He never considered her that, but the point is that she didn't have any frame of reference for a boyfriend until him. In the three years between the two movies, I have to think that Hikaru probably had a boyfriend or two, and realized that they weren't that great. Maybe she even had a good one, but I'm sure that he wouldn't measure up to Kyosuke in her eyes.

I certainly do feel sorry for Hikaru. She certainly deserves to find happiness. With luck, she will find it within herself. Madoka on the other hand... She is not capible of internal happiness, and surely needs Kyosuke to be truly happy. That is the reason why I have always thought that Kyosuke and Madoka were fated to be one. They complete each other. Hikaru is pretty complete on her own.

-TC

[Isuzu Inugami]

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Natsume Maya said:

- I've never liked Hikaru's dance sequence. The animation seems a bit slow for someone dancing. And I never liked the insert song "Love is Power". Apart from the tune in general, the English pronounciation was poor enough that it was only after I'd watched the movie for the fourth or fifth time that I realised the song was actually sung in English... /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Heh. I forgot to mention that. No real opinion about her dancing, but I wondered if the song was intended to be American, and Hikaru was trying to wow the judges with her exotic, cosmopolitan New York style!

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
The truth of it is that she probably didn't really recognize her true feelings, or the reason why she really liked Kyosuke until he made his feelings clear to her. There is a reason the saying of "not knowing what you have until it's gone" exists. I'm sure that after she lost access to him, she started to look over all the really great things that he did for her, and realize that he was a really great guy, and so much more than what she had been after before. While he was her "darling", she mostly took him for granted.


[/ QUOTE ]


In movie 1, Hikaru tells Kyosuke that there are lots of things she wants to do with him &amp; tell him about. Kyosuke to her was like a husband-in-waiting, and IMO his dumping her felt more like a marriage break-up might to her, than just the end of a romance.

I agree with you about the desperate emotional needs of Madoka &amp; Kyosuke for each other. But in movie 2 older Kyosuke seems to have got over his, or at least takes Madoka too much for granted - until he gets back.

[plaidwolf]

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Wrath of the Njr said:
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The truth of it is that she probably didn't really recognize her true feelings, or the reason why she really liked Kyosuke until he made his feelings clear to her. There is a reason the saying of "not knowing what you have until it's gone" exists. I'm sure that after she lost access to him, she started to look over all the really great things that he did for her, and realize that he was a really great guy, and so much more than what she had been after before. While he was her "darling", she mostly took him for granted.


[/ QUOTE ]


In movie 1, Hikaru tells Kyosuke that there are lots of things she wants to do with him &amp; tell him about. Kyosuke to her was like a husband-in-waiting, and IMO his dumping her felt more like a marriage break-up might to her, than just the end of a romance.

I agree with you about the desperate emotional needs of Madoka &amp; Kyosuke for each other. But in movie 2 older Kyosuke seems to have got over his, or at least takes Madoka too much for granted - until he gets back.

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't that a failing we ALL have to an extent? No matter how much we may adore the person we are with, there are those occasions where we DO take them for granted, not intentionally of course, but because they are dependable to us....we dont think for a minute that the day may come where they wont be beside us....

as mentioned earlier, 'you dont know what you have until it is gone'. Throughout KOR TV, Hikaru took Kyo for granted, as did Madoka in her own way...Movie 1 jolted both of them regarding what they had, alebeit in differing ways, Movie 2 jolted Kyo both as 19 and 22 (although evidently the lesson as a 19 year old didnt stick too well with Kyo...he had to relive that as a 22-year old on 'the other side of the fence'....

One question I always had regarding both movies (and i did like the way the second movie tried to keep the continuity with the first movie) was if 19-year old Kyo told 19-year old Madoka what happened and where he was...and 22-year old Madoka forgot about that in her grief...based upon her behavior, i suspected 19 Kyo didnt say a thing to maintain the proper way things had to happen when he was 22....

On one hand, it DID work out well, because Madoka and Hikaru DID finally get some things resolved betwen them...

One last query: Did anyone notice the little girl holding the plushie in the airport looking up at both Kyos....wasnt she the spittin' image of a very young Hikaru? Hmmm.....(Kyo was wondering if maybe 'it had all started again')

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Plaid Wolf said:
[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
[ QUOTE ]
The truth of it is that she probably didn't really recognize her true feelings, or the reason why she really liked Kyosuke until he made his feelings clear to her. There is a reason the saying of "not knowing what you have until it's gone" exists. I'm sure that after she lost access to him, she started to look over all the really great things that he did for her, and realize that he was a really great guy, and so much more than what she had been after before. While he was her "darling", she mostly took him for granted.


[/ QUOTE ]

In movie 1, Hikaru tells Kyosuke that there are lots of things she wants to do with him &amp; tell him about. Kyosuke to her was like a husband-in-waiting, and IMO his dumping her felt more like a marriage break-up might to her, than just the end of a romance.

I agree with you about the desperate emotional needs of Madoka &amp; Kyosuke for each other. But in movie 2 older Kyosuke seems to have got over his, or at least takes Madoka too much for granted - until he gets back.

[/ QUOTE ]

But isn't that a failing we ALL have to an extent? No matter how much we may adore the person we are with, there are those occasions where we DO take them for granted, not intentionally of course, but because they are dependable to us....we dont think for a minute that the day may come where they wont be beside us....


[/ QUOTE ]
I don't really see evidence that age 22 Kyosuke took Madoka for granted. I just watched it again (hadn't seen it for awhile) and 22 Kyo does tell 19 Kyo that his going to Bosnia was a mix-up.

The subtitles have Madoka complaining that he was gone for "several months" not six.

Their banter on the airport roof, just after sending 19 back, was just their way of expressing affection. Madoka wasn't really mad, it was just her way of saying how much she missed him, and his way of saying he was sorry to make her worry.

[ QUOTE ]

as mentioned earlier, 'you dont know what you have until it is gone'. Throughout KOR TV, Hikaru took Kyo for granted, as did Madoka in her own way...Movie 1 jolted both of them regarding what they had, alebeit in differing ways, Movie 2 jolted Kyo both as 19 and 22 (although evidently the lesson as a 19 year old didnt stick too well with Kyo...he had to relive that as a 22-year old on 'the other side of the fence'....


[/ QUOTE ]
The jolt to Madoka in Movie 1 caused her to realize she had to make the decision between Hikaru and Kyosuke. She was taking it for granted that he liked her, but the problem was that she hadn't faced up to the dilemma of whether to support Hikaru or have Kyosuke. She'd been trying to have it both ways.

[ QUOTE ]

One question I always had regarding both movies (and i did like the way the second movie tried to keep the continuity with the first movie) was if 19-year old Kyo told 19-year old Madoka what happened and where he was...and 22-year old Madoka forgot about that in her grief...based upon her behavior, i suspected 19 Kyo didnt say a thing to maintain the proper way things had to happen when he was 22....


[/ QUOTE ]
I think that 19 Kyo did not tell 19 Madoka anything about the situation that would occur in three years. If 22 Madoka knew that 19 Kyo would be able to bring 22 Kyo back, she might not have had the emotion to pour into playing "Kyosuke #1". Without that emotion, 19 Kyo might not have been able to bring 22 Kyo back. Ojiisan's power wasn't enough to wake 22 Kyo, but the power of Madoka's music was.

[ QUOTE ]

One last query: Did anyone notice the little girl holding the plushie in the airport looking up at both Kyos....wasnt she the spittin' image of a very young Hikaru? Hmmm.....(Kyo was wondering if maybe 'it had all started again')

[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, I wondered about that as well. It did seem to mean something. On the other hand, it could have just been an anonymous little girl puzzled by two guys who looked so much alike.

[Natsume_Maya]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
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- Looking forward to the release of the new print, digitally remastered R2 DVD box set for the TV series next year. It'll be a good time to watch the series through again /images/graemlins/happy.gif

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I wonder if anyone will license those for R1? It would be interesting if someone decided to dub it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was hoping that the R2 release might have English subtitles, but none of the pages I've visited has mentioned subtitles.

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Wrath of the Njr said:
Her dance moves IMO, were meant to be a bit awkward, showing she still has some perfecting to do. The end (red T-shirt) animated dance class showed she was getting better fluidity of movement as far as it went.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't the dance moves were supposed to be that awkward though. I find it hard to watch that sequence. Even an old (older?) 80s TV series like Legendary Idol Eriko has better dancing animation than this 1996 movie animation IMO. The animation of the dancing at the end of the movie was much, much better - that's how it should have been in the first place.

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Hikaru sees the TV report of Kyosuke missing in Bosnia after she first meets him. She meets him a second time at the top of The Stairs. I believe she intentionally went looking for him. When she finds him on the stairs, she says she knew he would be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this part a bit strange. Why did Hikaru know that she would find Kyosuke at the stairs? She does not know of the significance of the stairs to him. In fact, the only event of any real significance that Hikaru would know of regarding the stairs would be from the first movie, when Kyosuke walked away from her and her tears...

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru narrowly misses meeting the older Kyosuke at the airport. That would have been a shocking meeting for Hikaru. I wonder if she hears the news of his return on the news elsewhere? If she sorts it out with the dates, there would be some things for her to ponder.

[/ QUOTE ]

Then again, Hikaru was never the smartest cookie /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

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Tomcat said:
The reason why Hikaru liked Kyosuke WAS superficial, and all about her wants, rather than his feelings. That's not to say that she didn't really like him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm hesitant to agree with a statement like that. Sure, throughout the TV series we almost always see Hikaru taking the initiative with respect to Kyosuke, since he secretly had his eyes on Madoka. I guess I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt in general, but to me the fact that Hikaru normally took the initiative to suggest the dates or make the lunches etc doesn't necessarily mean that there was a selfishness to it.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also going to speculate that Kyosuke was her first "boyfriend". He never considered her that, but the point is that she didn't have any frame of reference for a boyfriend until him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd agree with that.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
One last query: Did anyone notice the little girl holding the plushie in the airport looking up at both Kyos

[/ QUOTE ]

To me that scene is always a metaphor for an innocent looking up at 2 wolves.

Both Kyosukes were laughing after their discussion about the possibility of cheating on Madoka with Hikaru, and its likely consequences. 2 adult men discussing/ravishing the thought of women for sex. And this little innocent girl looks up like a fledgling at 2 predators, before being whisked away by her mother.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:
Hikaru sees the TV report of Kyosuke missing in Bosnia after she first meets him. She meets him a second time at the top of The Stairs. I believe she intentionally went looking for him. When she finds him on the stairs, she says she knew he would be there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I find this part a bit strange. Why did Hikaru know that she would find Kyosuke at the stairs? She does not know of the significance of the stairs to him. In fact, the only event of any real significance that Hikaru would know of regarding the stairs would be from the first movie, when Kyosuke walked away from her and her tears...


[/ QUOTE ]
Hikaru may not know why the stairs are significant, but I think she is aware that Kyosuke does have some affinity for them. She has met Kyosuke there a few times. Once in A Message in Rouge and again at the final parting of Movie 1. He also meets 7-year-old Hikaru there in TV 47 or 48. There may have been other times I don't recall. Wasn't there a scene somewhere with Hikaru asking him what it was about those stairs that made them important to him? IIRC, she is telling him that most people avoid them.

Then there is the inference that Hikaru really does have a deep connection to Kyosuke. She recognizes him as a fish, and a cat. She runs into him at the bridge over the spot he is hit by a car. He is lost in the wrong time dimension and it is Hikaru that finds him. There is some connection implied between Hikaru meeting 19 Kyo and stairs. Both meetings were at stairs.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
The reason why Hikaru liked Kyosuke WAS superficial, and all about her wants, rather than his feelings. That's not to say that she didn't really like him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm hesitant to agree with a statement like that. Sure, throughout the TV series we almost always see Hikaru taking the initiative with respect to Kyosuke, since he secretly had his eyes on Madoka. I guess I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt in general, but to me the fact that Hikaru normally took the initiative to suggest the dates or make the lunches etc doesn't necessarily mean that there was a selfishness to it.


[/ QUOTE ]
Throughout the TV series Hikaru ignores Kyosuke's feelings. Many of those times, where she takes the initiative, are done against his protests -- feeble protests, but protests all the same. That is why it seems that her desire for him is superficial. She seems to treat him more like an object than a partner.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm also going to speculate that Kyosuke was her first "boyfriend". He never considered her that, but the point is that she didn't have any frame of reference for a boyfriend until him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd agree with that.

[/ QUOTE ]
Kyosuke is definitely Hikaru's First Love. That makes the breakup more traumatic, and explains her still loving him after so many years. It is said that we never get over our first love. Hikaru certainly hasn't.

[Njr Scrawl]

Musical
So to summarise Madoka's musical talents, in the TV series &amp; movie 2 we've seen her play sax, recorder (but not hear), piano, electric keyboard, guitar, &amp; sings twice. IIRC she has also composed 4 works (Salvia Flower, Kaze &amp; Kyosuke #1 + the untitled hit mentioned in movie 2 which was for a show).

All the sax solos for KOR TV, in all their versions, are on CD#5 of the Singing Heart 2 CD collection. The Madoka sax "theme" version, as in episode 1, is also on Sound Color 3 CD which can be bought individually.

All KOR CDs are stereo, not mono as used for the TV episodes. That includes all BGM OST versions.

Chatty
As I'm going through the French &amp; Taiwanese DVDs, its strange how not having English subtitles to read makes characters' voices, expression etc more noticable. Well maybe not. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

What I have noticed is that Madoka is more talkative to Kyosuke &amp; makes more girl-type comments etc in the first few volumes, than as the series progresses, where looks &amp; shared mutual silences get more common. Also compare the chatty chibi-Madoka in the last 2 TV episodes with "now" Madoka.

2 episodes seem to affect Madoka most. The island episode, &amp; Kazuya "are you happy" episode. After each, Madoka changes slightly in her communication with Kyosuke. There are probably more...

At the start, Madoka got Kyosuke even more hooked on her than he already was, her early friendliness &amp; more direct attention helped IMO. Maybe getting less chatty gave Hikaru (who never gave up) the (wrong) impression that Madoka was withdrawing or giving up.

Kyosuke was aware, often belatedly, of Madoka's mood swings etc., but as also in the case of Manami &amp; Hikaru, he needed to be hit in the face with a situation to be aware of it fully.

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Natsume Maya said:
[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
The reason why Hikaru liked Kyosuke WAS superficial, and all about her wants, rather than his feelings. That's not to say that she didn't really like him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm hesitant to agree with a statement like that. Sure, throughout the TV series we almost always see Hikaru taking the initiative with respect to Kyosuke, since he secretly had his eyes on Madoka. I guess I just like to give people the benefit of the doubt in general, but to me the fact that Hikaru normally took the initiative to suggest the dates or make the lunches etc doesn't necessarily mean that there was a selfishness to it.

[/ QUOTE ]
Ah... I don't think I was as clear as I wanted to be. Hikaru's interest in Kysosuke was triggered by his amazingly unlikely basketball shot. At that point, she declared that he was her boyfriend, and started calling him "Darling". That's where my "superficial" comment came from. Now, I think by the time of the first movie, she developed true feelings for him, but in her actions up to that point really didn't change very much.

For most people, there will be an initial attraction, something that grabs their attention, and then a relationship builds from there. I don't think that most people jump right into a relationship the moment that they are attracted to someone, and even if they do, the affection grows much more slowly.

Think of the different approaches of the two girls. Barring interference from each other, Hikaru has all her affection up front. She has her boyfriend Kyosuke on the second or third day she's known him, and treats him the same way all the way through. Madoka, on the other hand, takes things much more slowly. She doesn't object to him being around (other than right after the fight in episode 1), and even shows some inclination to liking him to be around. It slowly grows to a great affection, and she certainly knows him well enough in the end to appreciate him completely. Even joking with him is affectionate.

Could you imagine what Hikaru would think if Kyosuke engaged in the kind of teasing that he does with Madoka? Granted that Madoka probably teases him more than he does her, but he definitely gives it back. Hikaru would, at a minimum, be very, very confused. She might even get upset, if he didn't point out to her that he was teasing. The depth of their relationship does not include the kind of understanding that we see with Madoka.

And, I definitely thing that the triangle never really ended, they just exiled Hikaru for three years, and Madoka and Kyosuke cemented their relationship. I think that once Hikaru comes back, she is going to be aiming for Kyosuke, but not at the cost of Madoka's relationship. Hikaru would never intentionally do anything to hurt Madoka, but is Madoka was somehow out of the picture, she'd be all over Kyosuke.

-TC

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
Ah... I don't think I was as clear as I wanted to be. Hikaru's interest in Kysosuke was triggered by his amazingly unlikely basketball shot. At that point, she declared that he was her boyfriend, and started calling him "Darling". That's where my "superficial" comment came from. Now, I think by the time of the first movie, she developed true feelings for him, but in her actions up to that point really didn't change very much.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hikaru's first "darling", came after the "little lemony kiss", that happened accidentally when she &amp; Kyosuke crashed into each other &amp; onto the floor, their faces brushing. Hikaru ran off after the PE teacher charged out. I think then the "darling" was maybe a nose-thumbing at the teacher, as much as a label she pinned on Kyosuke.
Kyosuke's "kiss" probably pulled Hikaru's hormone switch, &amp; she decided finders keepers. Ironically Kyosuke's defence of Hikaru is what really got Madoka interested in him, but from a character POV. Where the triangle really started I guess.

[ QUOTE ]
For most people, there will be an initial attraction, something that grabs their attention, and then a relationship builds from there. I don't think that most people jump right into a relationship the moment that they are attracted to someone, and even if they do, the affection grows much more slowly.

Think of the different approaches of the two girls. Barring interference from each other, Hikaru has all her affection up front. She has her boyfriend Kyosuke on the second or third day she's known him, and treats him the same way all the way through.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hikaru was like she was staking a claim. All her embarrassing public displays of affection are more to do with advertising, but probably also digger a deeper emotional/status hole for Kyosuke in public.

[ QUOTE ]
Madoka, on the other hand, takes things much more slowly. She doesn't object to him being around (other than right after the fight in episode 1), and even shows some inclination to liking him to be around. It slowly grows to a great affection, and she certainly knows him well enough in the end to appreciate him completely. Even joking with him is affectionate.

Could you imagine what Hikaru would think if Kyosuke engaged in the kind of teasing that he does with Madoka? Granted that Madoka probably teases him more than he does her, but he definitely gives it back. Hikaru would, at a minimum, be very, very confused. She might even get upset, if he didn't point out to her that he was teasing. The depth of their relationship does not include the kind of understanding that we see with Madoka.

[/ QUOTE ]

Madoka's teasing sometimes goes over Kyosuke's head. This is because Kyosuke is so serious about Madoka, &amp; basically considers her as serious, deep &amp; not frivolous. His realisation she's funning is usually the happy/relieved/awkward conclusion of an episode.

OTOH, Hikaru would be very supportive of Kyosuke's ideas &amp; plans. In a way its a pity there aren't a few K &amp; H episodes with no Madoka, then again we'd be worried about the later consequences... /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif

[ QUOTE ]
And, I definitely thing that the triangle never really ended, they just exiled Hikaru for three years, and Madoka and Kyosuke cemented their relationship. I think that once Hikaru comes back, she is going to be aiming for Kyosuke, but not at the cost of Madoka's relationship. Hikaru would never intentionally do anything to hurt Madoka, but is Madoka was somehow out of the picture, she'd be all over Kyosuke.

-TC

[/ QUOTE ]

The 2 later SKOR novels have Hikaru back, but older Kyosuke has better, slyer use of the Power...

[Isuzu Inugami]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
[ QUOTE ]
One last query: Did anyone notice the little girl holding the plushie in the airport looking up at both Kyos

[/ QUOTE ]

To me that scene is always a metaphor for an innocent looking up at 2 wolves.

Both Kyosukes were laughing after their discussion about the possibility of cheating on Madoka with Hikaru, and its likely consequences. 2 adult men discussing/ravishing the thought of women for sex. And this little innocent girl looks up like a fledgling at 2 predators, before being whisked away by her mother.

[/ QUOTE ]

You are evil! /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Ironically Kyosuke's defence of Hikaru is what really got Madoka interested in him, but from a character POV. Where the triangle really started I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, I took it slightly different. Kyosuke didn't really start defending Hikaru until the teacher started to say that Hikaru was a delinquent because she associated with other know delinquents. At this point, the only thing that Kyosuke knows about Hikaru is that she is a friend of Madoka's. The teacher was clearly calling Madoka a delinquent, and that's where Kyosuke drew the line. Of course, his defense of Hikaru was actually a defense of Madoka, but only Kyosuke really knew he was talking about her, and not Hikaru. Way over the heads of everyone... except I think that Madoka more or less figured it out, thus her comment about a delinquent running off with his bag.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru was like she was staking a claim.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hikaru is definitely staking her claim. She all but puts a collar around his neck with her name and phone number on it, in case he gets lost. She wants to make it clear to everyone that Kyosuke is her property, and that nobody better have any ideas to the contrary.

[ QUOTE ]
Madoka's teasing sometimes goes over Kyosuke's head. This is because Kyosuke is so serious about Madoka, &amp; basically considers her as serious, deep &amp; not frivolous. His realization she's funning is usually the happy/relieved/awkward conclusion of an episode.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's part of what makes Madoka interesting for him. There is SO much more to the girl than anyone can even comprehend. I think that Kyosuke will be able to spend the rest of his life trying to figure her out.

-TC

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Ironically Kyosuke's defence of Hikaru is what really got Madoka interested in him, but from a character POV. Where the triangle really started I guess.

[/ QUOTE ]
See, I took it slightly different. Kyosuke didn't really start defending Hikaru until the teacher started to say that Hikaru was a delinquent because she associated with other know delinquents. At this point, the only thing that Kyosuke knows about Hikaru is that she is a friend of Madoka's. The teacher was clearly calling Madoka a delinquent, and that's where Kyosuke drew the line. Of course, his defense of Hikaru was actually a defense of Madoka, but only Kyosuke really knew he was talking about her, and not Hikaru. Way over the heads of everyone... except I think that Madoka more or less figured it out, thus her comment about a delinquent running off with his bag.


[/ QUOTE ]
I think there is evidence for both points of view. Madoka hears Kyosuke talking to the teacher about Hikaru and she says, "Hikaru?" Also, I agree that the comment about a delinquent running off with the bag was Madoka being ironic.

I took that scene to to imply that Madoka saw Kyosuke standing up for both she and Hikaru. I think he gets points on both counts. Defending Hikaru would have gotten him points with Madoka, but defending them both is even better.

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru was like she was staking a claim.

[/ QUOTE ]
Hikaru is definitely staking her claim. She all but puts a collar around his neck with her name and phone number on it, in case he gets lost. She wants to make it clear to everyone that Kyosuke is her property, and that nobody better have any ideas to the contrary.


[/ QUOTE ]
Yes, her treating him as property, and staking her claim without his consent, is part of what makes her seem superficial and selfish.

Hikaru could probably intimidate any other student with such a claim, but it was ineffectual on the one who mattered most. /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Madoka's teasing sometimes goes over Kyosuke's head. This is because Kyosuke is so serious about Madoka, &amp; basically considers her as serious, deep &amp; not frivolous. His realization she's funning is usually the happy/relieved/awkward conclusion of an episode.

[/ QUOTE ]
It's part of what makes Madoka interesting for him. There is SO much more to the girl than anyone can even comprehend. I think that Kyosuke will be able to spend the rest of his life trying to figure her out.

-TC

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, she would certainly remain interesting, but Kyosuke seems quite comfortable with her at 22. He is doing quite a bit of the teasing in the last airport scenes.

[Njr Scrawl]

[ QUOTE ]
It's part of what makes Madoka interesting for him. There is SO much more to the girl than anyone can even comprehend. I think that Kyosuke will be able to spend the rest of his life trying to figure her out.

[/ QUOTE ]

Kyosuke thinks he has Madoka figured out partly, then she reacts completely opposite to his expectation. Its because he can't read her mind or attitude, or tries to &amp; misinterprets her, or is made to think so. Madoka is a little sadistic at times...

Hikaru was probably Madoka's first girlfriend, &amp; they stuck together through hard times &amp; have been through a lot together, which is why they are so close, &amp; why Madoka gave Hikaru so much leeway over Kyosuke.

[Tomcat]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Kyosuke thinks he has Madoka figured out partly, then she reacts completely opposite to his expectation. Its because he can't read her mind or attitude, or tries to &amp; misinterprets her, or is made to think so. Madoka is a little sadistic at times...

[/ QUOTE ]
Little sarcastic is probably an understatement. Even being animated, in a foreign language, the sarcasm is pretty obvious. But, she isn't usually sarcastic at all, but really pretty sweet, at least to those she cares about.

[ QUOTE ]
Hikaru was probably Madoka's first girlfriend, &amp; they stuck together through hard times &amp; have been through a lot together, which is why they are so close, &amp; why Madoka gave Hikaru so much leeway over Kyosuke.

[/ QUOTE ]
Madoka is 30 months older than Hikaru. I seriously doubt that Hikaru was madoka's first friend. I would agree that it's possible that The opposite IS true though. By the time that Hikaru could be a "friend", Madoka would be around 5 years old or so, and should have had several playmates and friends by then. Hikaru definitely seems to be Madoka's oldest friend, oldest referring to length of time, rather than age...

Either way, Madoka certainly treats her specially, even compared to her other friends who she more than goes out of her way for.

-TC

[Njr Scrawl]

Madoka's sarcasm is often softly &amp; evenly spoken, that its not always obvious straight away. When she's angry her sarcasm is different because, she's usually hurting as well &amp; very hard to console or approach. Those expressions of hers!

What makes Madoka so fascinating &amp; challenging &amp; ultimately rewarding, is her mood swings. Like heat she has a kind of "handling" temperature, but choose the wrong time &amp; Kyosuke gets burned.

"Summer's Beginning" was feelgood. Almost too much. Hikaru provided the emotional side for Kyosuke, but what seemed lacking was Madoka's backbone. Seemed, because she had probably moved to the resignation stage of bereavement, but nevertheless something was missing from her behaviour, the rebel maybe - would TV Madoka accept Kyosuke was dead without seeing his body? She'd have gone looking IMO.

[plaidwolf]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Madoka's sarcasm is often softly &amp; evenly spoken, that its not always obvious straight away. When she's angry her sarcasm is different because, she's usually hurting as well &amp; very hard to console or approach. Those expressions of hers!

What makes Madoka so fascinating &amp; challenging &amp; ultimately rewarding, is her mood swings. Like heat she has a kind of "handling" temperature, but choose the wrong time &amp; Kyosuke gets burned.

"Summer's Beginning" was feelgood. Almost too much. Hikaru provided the emotional side for Kyosuke, but what seemed lacking was Madoka's backbone. Seemed, because she had probably moved to the resignation stage of bereavement, but nevertheless something was missing from her behaviour, the rebel maybe - would TV Madoka accept Kyosuke was dead without seeing his body? She'd have gone looking IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know if TV Madoka would have gone looking, but she would have been more than certain that Kyo was alright...she had some awareness throughout the series as it progressed to the end of the third year that Kyo had some unusual ablities, hence she didnt run off shrieking when he finally told her in Ep 47...she would know that Kyo would always be there for her and even if he was in Hell, he would somehow find a way out back to her....

it DOES make you wonder what had gone on between them during the time between the end of the Ep 48 and Movie 2 that would change Madoka's attitude so greatly...it DID bother me that she (Madoka 22) seemed to lose hope too easily...(i did read the translation of the SKOR manga where she was murmuring that her superman would find some way to get back to her and that feeling was missing in the second movie

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Plaid Wolf said:
[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
"Summer's Beginning" was feelgood. Almost too much. Hikaru provided the emotional side for Kyosuke, but what seemed lacking was Madoka's backbone. Seemed, because she had probably moved to the resignation stage of bereavement, but nevertheless something was missing from her behaviour, the rebel maybe - would TV Madoka accept Kyosuke was dead without seeing his body? She'd have gone looking IMO.

[/ QUOTE ]

I dont know if TV Madoka would have gone looking, but she would have been more than certain that Kyo was alright...she had some awareness throughout the series as it progressed to the end of the third year that Kyo had some unusual ablities, hence she didnt run off shrieking when he finally told her in Ep 47...she would know that Kyo would always be there for her and even if he was in Hell, he would somehow find a way out back to her....

it DOES make you wonder what had gone on between them during the time between the end of the Ep 48 and Movie 2 that would change Madoka's attitude so greatly...it DID bother me that she (Madoka 22) seemed to lose hope too easily...(i did read the translation of the SKOR manga where she was murmuring that her superman would find some way to get back to her and that feeling was missing in the second movie

[/ QUOTE ]
My interpretation is that Madoka never lost hope, but was worried. It was Hayakawa Mitsuru who called Kyosuke a ghost, not Madoka. From her conversation with Ojiisan, it is clear that Madoka had been in touch with Kurumi and Manami, but they had been unable to reach Ojiisan in Hawaii.

Madoka had already lived through the situation with Kyosuke's car accident. She had heard Ojiisan's explanation of Kyosuke's soul wandering around another time dimension. Kyosuke had returned. So, Madoka is waiting for Kyosuke to sort it out, or for Ojiisan to get in touch to help.

It would be unrealistic to expect Madoka to go looking for Kyosuke in Bosnia. If she could sneak into a war zone, what could she do? It would be foolish to go without hearing from Ojiisan. Madoka was doing the only thing she could, wait.

[Njr Scrawl]

I think it was Manami who Madoka told Ojiisan she had talked to. The twins must have been in distress as well, perhaps they had more hope.

On reflection Madoka's anger with younger Kyosuke, &amp; the obligatory slap /images/graemlins/tongue.gif , when they first meet in Hikaru's hotel room, must have been more relief at seeing him &amp; irritation that he had not come to her, as she said (which would have helped her feel better), than the fact he was with Hikaru!
(Hopefully Kyosuke explained to her later he passed out just as he was going to visit).

Madoka did hear Kyosuke's calling her name telepathically (but must have dismissed it as wishful thinking), just as in episode 48 when the dark reality &amp; time-tripped Madoka did.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
I think it was Manami who Madoka told Ojiisan she had talked to. The twins must have been in distress as well, perhaps they had more hope.


[/ QUOTE ]
I couldn't remember which of the twins had said she couldn't reach Ojiisan, but it makes sense that it would be Manami (the dependable one).

[ QUOTE ]

On reflection Madoka's anger with younger Kyosuke, &amp; the obligatory slap /images/graemlins/tongue.gif , when they first meet in Hikaru's hotel room, must have been more relief at seeing him &amp; irritation that he had not come to her, as she said (which would have helped her feel better), than the fact he was with Hikaru!
(Hopefully Kyosuke explained to her later he passed out just as he was going to visit).


[/ QUOTE ]
That is how I saw it. She was mad at him for not coming directly to her. That was almost worse than if he had slept with Hikaru.

[ QUOTE ]

Madoka did hear Kyosuke's calling her name telepathically (but must have dismissed it as wishful thinking), just as in episode 48 when the dark reality &amp; time-tripped Madoka did.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think she dismissed it. Madoka 22 acted as though she believed she had heard it, but didn't quite know what to make of it. She says his name and looks out the window. When he is not there, she can only ponder what it meant. Knowing Kyosuke's powers, and having heard his voice before, she would not dismiss it as her imagination.

[Isuzu Inugami]

[ QUOTE ]
Amasawa said:

My interpretation is that Madoka never lost hope, but was worried. It was Hayakawa Mitsuru who called Kyosuke a ghost, not Madoka. From her conversation with Ojiisan, it is clear that Madoka had been in touch with Kurumi and Manami, but they had been unable to reach Ojiisan in Hawaii.

Madoka had already lived through the situation with Kyosuke's car accident. She had heard Ojiisan's explanation of Kyosuke's soul wandering around another time dimension. Kyosuke had returned. So, Madoka is waiting for Kyosuke to sort it out, or for Ojiisan to get in touch to help.

It would be unrealistic to expect Madoka to go looking for Kyosuke in Bosnia. If she could sneak into a war zone, what could she do? It would be foolish to go without hearing from Ojiisan. Madoka was doing the only thing she could, wait.

[/ QUOTE ]

All of this makes sense, but her smoking stops me every time. I just can't correlate it with any Madoka save one who has lost hope, and is seriously depressed. It's very significant in the TV series that she stops smoking because of Kyosuke, and I can't attribute it as a casual thing that she smokes in the movie.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Shimauma said:
All of this makes sense, but her smoking stops me every time. I just can't correlate it with any Madoka save one who has lost hope, and is seriously depressed. It's very significant in the TV series that she stops smoking because of Kyosuke, and I can't attribute it as a casual thing that she smokes in the movie.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't like the smoking either, but isn't it much more acceptable in Japan than it currently is in the USA? My impression is that, at least at the time of Movie 2, smoking was very popular/common in Japan.

Kyosuke objected to Madoka smoking at her age. It isn't clear that he objected to smoking altogether. Go back to the TV episode and I think you will clearly see that age is an issue in Kyosuke's objection.

I'm just on disc 7 (hey, I watch 1 episode of anime a day, if I'm lucky and have time) at the moment, so I can't join in the thread so far, but did anyone who bought the "just discs" offer from Animeigo like I did make their own covers? I've got the discs in standard size cases that hold 3 discs to save space, but I've got sod-all artistic talent....

J

[Njr Scrawl]

If you have image-altering software then I'd try Google for some Akemi Takeda KOR pics (I can find some sites if you like), capture, re-size &amp; print on glossy paper to your case measurements.

Thanks Wrath - I'm part way through such a project, but my efforts just suck. I've been using it to try to teach myself better photoshop but I think its the artistic ability that's lacking.... I have a logo poached from a scan of an official cover, and a beautiful picture of Madoka, but.... I'd post a jpg of it here but I was working on it on my work PC during my lunch breaks last month and never brought it home.

If you could PM me some sites, they may be different from the ones I found, and I'd be very very grateful.

J

[Njr Scrawl]

Don't know if anyone else has the LE laserdisc release of Shin KOR movie.

I was looking through mine &amp; the gatefold sleeve has a booklet glued in. One of the double page spreads has drawings of the characters we see in the beginning, in 1991, when Kyosuke &amp; Madoka are 19, on left page. And the same characters in 1994, when K &amp; M are 22, on right page.

Seeing them side by side, older Kyosuke still looks part-teen - same kind of clothes. Older Madoka wears more lipstick, looks woman &amp; not girly &amp; her dressing in more mature clothes - (the long skirt &amp; blouse seem strange on her) compared to her shorter dress worn during her "prize" chat with Kyosuke. Older Madoka's expressions are also different, which show her maturity/somberness. (Thankfully in the movie she went back to a shorter skirt on her Kyosuke's return)

Hikaru is compared from flashback 1988 to young woman 1994 expressions. Big difference, child to young woman, naked emotion to charming.

Of the others in the family group picture drawing, Kyosuke's grandparents look no different over the 3 years, Manami looks a little older. Kurumi in '91 &amp; '94 does look more grown up for the later year, a girl who knows what she wants.

[Amasawa]

[ QUOTE ]
Wrath of the Njr said:
Don't know if anyone else has the LE laserdisc release of Shin KOR movie.

I was looking through mine &amp; the gatefold sleeve has a booklet glued in. One of the double page spreads has drawings of the characters...

[/ QUOTE ]
Could you post some scans? I'd love to see the images.

[Njr Scrawl]

Just bought a digital camera with optical zoom, so I'll try &amp; get some pics posted shortly. There was something else KOR I was going to post but have forgotten what it was /images/graemlins/stunned1.gif

[Njr Scrawl]

Found on Youtube.

OP1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42frPeDMLJo&mode=related&search=

The others are there also & a clip of a concert performance of "Night of Summer Side".

(Also all MI creditless incl ep.24's unique ones)

[Tomcat]

Found on Youtube.

OP1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42frPeDMLJo&mode=related&search=

The others are there also & a clip of a concert performance of "Night of Summer Side".

(Also all MI creditless incl ep.24's unique ones)

Sweet! Creditless OP/ED is nice to have, although the original Japanese credits are usually done much more tasteful than when the American companied put their overlays on them. I think it underscores the how the different cultures value the artistry. For the US, the "names in lights" is more important than what might be going on in the credits.

-TC

[Bods]

Feel like a fish out of water here but I noticed something in particular earlier in the thread that I just had to enquire about...

SKOR I has had 3 different versions in Japanese.; the original, original with movie scenes adaption, original with some re-written scenes (latest version printed). There is also an "anime comic" (screencaps + speech bubbles)

Would you mind me asking about the re-written scenes you mention here? I often wonder about the multiple releases of the Shin KOR 1 novels available (I bought the original a few years ago) and whether it would be worth buying them to see what, if anything, was different from the initial release. Could you please elaborate on what has been altered in that printing? I would appreciate it. Thanks.

[Njr Scrawl]

Can't help you with what's changed, but the smaller size A5 SKOR novel is the one reputed to have had some addition &/or re-writing. The A5 II & III might also have some changes as well.

Google translation to English from French fan page
Which surprise for the fans of KOR in Japan when they saw that this novel was simply only… Shin KOR I!! Heh yes! Shin KOR 2002 is only reactualized Shin KOR I! Surprised, therefore!

The text of origin of Shin KOR I underwent some corrective measures, small a relookage and a reactualization according to the topicality of the years 2000 (the summer 1994 becomes the summer 2001, Bosnia becomes the Middle-East, the telephone becomes cellular,…). The book is smaller than the first version of 1995. There we have a pocket format whose paper is not good quality, which gives to the section of the book a greater thinness. In short, it is finally Shin KOR I with the sauce 2000, which is enough surprising on behalf of Kenji Terada which is not accustomed to offering to the fans of KOR texts of this kind. It is a little too easy, not? … Year KOR starts well, hold…: P


So it seems that the re-writing has more contemporised SKOR 1. Shame IMO as its pushes it all further away from the 80s original - & KOR manga is older than KOR anime!

Not quite so bad for the movie, as Madoka is using a laptop to compose music at its end (though that seems slightly out of place). At least Kyosuke is not using digital cameras & is still "wet" developing his photos. Hikaru is not into rap, hip-hop etc.

[Bods]

So it seems that the re-writing has more contemporised SKOR 1. Shame IMO as its pushes it all further away from the 80s original


I agree...the idea of further contemporising SKOR in the manner described in the translation above doesn't sit well with me at all, I think you've just saved me some money. Really don't feel the need to add that to the collection! Thanks again :)

[Lizzie]

[/ QUOTE ] It still seemed an odd omission to me that they weren't even shown kissing after having gone through all that heartache.[/QUOTE] The first Movie and Shin KOR ignore two elements from the last episode of the TV series: The revelation of the power and Madoka and Kyosuke's 'second first kiss' under the tree of memories. According to Shin KOR (the novel) Kyosuke reveals his powers to Madoka after the breakup with Hikaru (after the events of the first Movie). After that, they share their first kiss. In Shin KOR, Kyosuke explains how he tried to kiss Madoka at many occasions but each time she managed to avoid it (as she did in the first movie). It was after he revealed his secret that she rewarded him with a kiss.

[Lizzie]

...I think Kyo 22 is teasing Kyo 19 over Hikaru--or punishing him for being tempted by her. But he is a jerk over forgetting when he started calling Madoka "Madoka." The part of the film I find hardest to swallow. They do seem to have a good relationship otherwise.[/QUOTE] I don't think that Kyosuke 22 really forgot his first time with Madoka. I tend to think that he was teasing her. Actually there is another explanation for that. I read somewhere that in KOR universe the character's memory may be affected by time travels: An event may be erased from a character's memory if he is in presence with his younger self who hasn't experienced the event yet. The fact that Kyo 22 was with his younger self (who has'nt experienced the thing yet) he couldn't remember the event. Once Kyo 19 was back to his dimention, Kyo 22 suddenly remembered the event. This is one plausible explanation I can give, the other being that he was simply teasing Madoka.