Can you ever know *too* much about the "villain's" past? [Archive]

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DrMM

10-17-2006, 06:54 PM

Due to the Geneon sale at TRSI and glowing reviews from the forums, I ended up getting Fighting Spirit (quit suggesting titles -- I don't have *money* to keep buying addicting series).

When I was watching the first bout of the 'Rookie Tournament' I became really fond of Ippo's first opponent -- the American guy. In fact, I thought his whole backstory and calling the gym owner's wife 'mama' was really cute. So cute, I actually wanted him to win, rather than the 'hero' of the story. I even felt a lot of sympathy for Mashiba, once his backstory came out (although I didn't actually want him to win).

So now I'm wondering -- how much is too much backstory for the villain/opponent of the hero? What do you think?

Dagger

10-17-2006, 06:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DrMM said:
So now I'm wondering -- how much is too much backstory for the villain/opponent of the hero? What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]
Too much is when it becomes boring/emotionally manipulative/otherwise insufferable. Or when the opponent starts to become the main character... although that in itself could be an interesting twist. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

DrMM

10-17-2006, 07:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Dagger said:
[ QUOTE ]
DrMM said:
So now I'm wondering -- how much is too much backstory for the villain/opponent of the hero? What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]
Too much is when it becomes boring/emotionally manipulative/otherwise insufferable. Or when the opponent starts to become the main character... although that in itself could be an interesting twist. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

So, what series do you think have this problem? I know some people have issues with Nakago's backstory in Fushigi Yugi (personally, I hated him so much by that time that I didn't care) but are there any others that people can think of?

Mark

10-17-2006, 07:20 PM

If it gets to the point where you feel that the "villain" should have his own spin-off series, that's a pretty good sign.
Rurouni Kenshin has a bunch of villains that I want to see more of: Shishio, Soujiro, Anji. Hell, even a Kamatari spin-off has a decent chance with all the yaoi fangirls that would scoop it up.

christianlf

10-17-2006, 07:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DrMM said:
Due to the Geneon sale at TRSI and glowing reviews from the forums, I ended up getting Fighting Spirit (quit suggesting titles -- I don't have *money* to keep buying addicting series).

When I was watching the first bout of the 'Rookie Tournament' I became really fond of Ippo's first opponent -- the American guy. In fact, I thought his whole backstory and calling the gym owner's wife 'mama' was really cute. So cute, I actually wanted him to win, rather than the 'hero' of the story. I even felt a lot of sympathy for Mashiba, once his backstory came out (although I didn't actually want him to win).

So now I'm wondering -- how much is too much backstory for the villain/opponent of the hero? What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]

See, I actually think that's what makes Ippo so great. His opponents aren't villains at all; they're real people, with hopes and dreams just as important as his own. Ippo following his dream will always come at the expense of someone else's dream. Without the detailed attention each character gets, I don't believe it'd be half as interesting as it is.

As for the general question, I don't think I've encountered that feeling yet. I tend to like to know a lot about villains. I actually have to admit I root for villains probably more than I should. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif That may be why I love Death Note so much, heh.

something

10-17-2006, 07:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
DrMM said:
So now I'm wondering -- how much is too much backstory for the villain/opponent of the hero? What do you think?

[/ QUOTE ]
I think it can only be "too much" if after showing that backstory, the then go on to keep the villain in the same "good/evil" dichotomy we're used to. They have to be a more complex character than just "a cliche villain" for it to be fulfilling.

Dagger

10-17-2006, 07:46 PM

Oh, I definitely agree about Shishio. That's the perfect example. They really succeeded in making him a likeable and seductive character--one can understand why people would be drawn to him and would support him. The issue with this is that Kenshin does not (IMO) grow in conjunction with this to match him as a charcter, and in the end he begins to pale beside Shishio.

I don't know if the Shishio in hell scene was also in the manga, but you can tell that someone involved in the creation of the anime must have been equally taken in by his character. That scene was really awesome for the viewer, but at the same time it was a major cop-out on the part of the writers, since all it did was salve over the effect of Shishio's death. I can't help but think that it was done to compensate for the fact that they had developed Shishio so well that they didn't know how to write his death in a satisfying manner.

Suwako Moriya

10-17-2006, 07:51 PM

It's not really a matter of how much you know, but what you're told. There can be a thin line between adding depth to a villain and what comes as a lame case of begging the viewers to feel sorry for the villain. Okay granted you can know too much in the same sense you can know too much about any character. In short it's good to have a focus, but the show should not forget the other cast members exist.

kamillebidan

10-18-2006, 12:20 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Dagger said:
I don't know if the Shishio in hell scene was also in the manga, but you can tell that someone involved in the creation of the anime must have been equally taken in by his character. That scene was really awesome for the viewer, but at the same time it was a major cop-out on the part of the writers, since all it did was salve over the effect of Shishio's death. I can't help but think that it was done to compensate for the fact that they had developed Shishio so well that they didn't know how to write his death in a satisfying manner.

[/ QUOTE ]
Sure is - it's at the end of volume 17.

HOUJI (thinking): "Is this a dream? Some trick... or reality?"
Narration: "Sadojima Houji awakes to find himself..."
HOUJI: "...Where...? I... died... didn't I...? Then... this must be?"
SHISHIO: "Hell, of course."
HOUJI: "Shishio-sama!"
YUMI: "See? Just as I said. Wait a bit, and Houji was bound to turn up."
SHISHIO: "Enough wasting time! We must be going."
HOUJI: "Going? Where?"
SHISHO: "Where else? We're off to conquer our environment!"
YUMI (to Shishio): "I keep thinking we'll see Usui, too... This time, let's make him truly one of us."
SHISHIO (to Yumi): "I'll think about it."
SHISHIO (to Houji): "Why do you hold back? Did I not say you would first enjoy the taste of my victory...?"
HOUJI: "Y-you did!"
SHISHIO: "That world could not stomach my defeat of Battousai. But here... here, they're our kind of people!" (Maniacal laughter)

Personally this is one of my favorite scenes of the entire series. I can't think of any other manga* that features an antagonist try to take over Hell after being killed. How awesome is that? And it adds some closure to Shishio's quest after his untimely and arguably anti-climactic demise.

* This has happened in Dragonball, but their version of "Hell" is so bizarre and off-the wall I'm not sure if it even counts...

nakimushi

10-18-2006, 07:33 PM

Well, I have a slight twist on this. I'm rewatching Fullmetal Alchemist right now before I watch the movie for the first time.

I really think the show is terrific, but the only weak point that I remember from the first time I watched it, was that villain backstories became a spoiler.

Basically there was a pattern - especially with the homunculi. Right after one's past was examined in detail and they were "humanized" by that exposition, they always seemed to be killed a short time after. After I noticed the pattern, any time a villain's past was dealt with, I knew they were going to get killed. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

As faults in a show go, it is a minor one, especially since the backstories were very well done. I still love the show though, and this really only bothered me the first time I watched it, because other than that, in general, the show's plot kept surprising me - which rarely happens to me - so I am always impressed by a show that is able to do so.

This is obviously less of an issue when rewatching the show, since now I know what is going to happen in each episode.

However, as much as I was impressed by the show the first time through, I think I'm actually enjoying the show more now in the rewatch.

Kinomoto_Shinji

10-18-2006, 08:18 PM

I like depth in my villians. If you don't give them depth, they just become insane maniacs who are evil just to be evil, which is stupid. Although there should be mystery about said "villian" to certian parts of the story. It's all about timing when they add more depth into the antagonist's history.

Mr. Nail Bat

10-18-2006, 08:19 PM

My big problem with the Kyoto Arc of Rurouni Kenshin was... how many episodes was it dealing with a Juppongatana member's tragic past? Too many. It brought the final episodes of that arc to a dead halt.

So, I say yes.

Tomcat

10-18-2006, 10:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Geoduck said:
My big problem with the Kyoto Arc of Rurouni Kenshin was... how many episodes was it dealing with a Juppongatana member's tragic past? Too many. It brought the final episodes of that arc to a dead halt.

[/ QUOTE ]
Indeed, the Kyoto Arc was painful in that it not only developed the antagonists more than the heros, but generally drew the battles out so long as to give the DBZ battles a run for their money. It's no surprise that someone would feel that the heros feel a little flat at this point.

The sad part is that most of the hero's character development happened in the last third of the manga, which didn't make it into the anime. The last third of the anime was more or less filler, but I think that they cancelled the anime afterwards.

I don't know if I ever have seen a series that actually had too much back story for the antagonists. I've seen several where the antagonist wasn't really bad or evil, and I've seen series where the hero WAS evil.

-TC

Njr Scrawl

10-19-2006, 01:07 PM

Lucy in Elfen Lied - puppy flashback

Nanami in Utena - kitten flashback

Galactica in Sailor Moon Stars, origin was OK, but her background story itself was too dragged out. I didn't feel any sorrier for her.

Mark

10-19-2006, 08:16 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Tomcat said:
Indeed, the Kyoto Arc was painful in that it not only developed the antagonists more than the heros, but generally drew the battles out so long as to give the DBZ battles a run for their money. It's no surprise that someone would feel that the heros feel a little flat at this point.

[/ QUOTE ]

The series never goes anywhere near DBZ's dragged out fights.

Helschadenfreude

10-20-2006, 07:32 PM

OMG, Vorg!! I wanted Vorg to win /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif I was so pissed when he lost to hometown advantage to Sendo? Bah. 

I generally like knowing more stuff about characters rather than not, I just don't need it pounded into my head a billion times. It tends to make me hate the character rather than go awww.. although that could be just reusing footage and animation on budget. The two other girls in 12 Kingdoms are kind of guilty of this.. especially that Japanese girl. Urgh.

Usually villians get shortchanged compared to the main character in terms of screentime/storytime so.. Agon from Eyeshield 21 needs more of backstory, he's such a bastard.. and could be all there is to it, but why did I have like him?

Random note, I admire Akio for his manipulations or whatever he thought he was doing, but his background was complete blehhhh. Though for Utena, I guess that wasn't the focus, Anthy was. I dislike her ~

Lumberjack

10-20-2006, 10:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
PsychoIdiot said:
OMG, Vorg!! I wanted Vorg to win /images/graemlins/sweat200.gif I was so pissed when he lost to hometown advantage to Sendo? Bah. 

[/ QUOTE ]

I was pulling for Vorg to win as well. I felt bad for him when he was forced to leave Japan.