Shounen and Shoujo differences

[alivinglegend]

I'm just wondering what your takes are on the differences between shounen and shoujo anime. What differentiates them in storytelling, characterization etc. Examples would be appreciated. I'm just wondering because of a project I'm doing in school concerning gender classes and what separetes them in film at the university, and I wanted to see how the Japanese industry and culture differ from that of the European and American.

[Twitch]

Shounen: There is always a tournament.
Shoujo: The girl always gets the guy.

Seriously, though.
From my limited experience, shounen anime tends to place more emphasis on team work/comradeship, working towards a goal, and overcoming one's limits.
In Naruto, Naruto's goal is to become Hokage of the village and to make everyone acknowledge him.

Shoujo is more about growing up/coming of age/developing/finding one's self.
In Cardcaptor Sakura, Sakura grows up by realizing <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>that she's in love with Shaoran and not with Yukito.</span>
In Marmalade Boy, Miki learns about love, being in a relationship, and what she wants to be in the future. Yuu learns how to open up to people. At the end of the series, they are both much different than at the beginning.

At least, that's what I think.

[something]

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Woody desu said:
I'm just wondering what your takes are on the differences between shounen and shoujo anime. What differentiates them in storytelling, characterization etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, generalizing is sort of a necessity with this question. When you think of the shounen archetype, you probably think of Shounen Jump fighting shows. When you think of the shoujo archetype, you think of mahou shoujo. I do at least. Maybe it's why I love Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha so much, as a blend of the two XD

I suppose the general answer is that shoujo is more "touchy-feely" and concerned with emotions and romance and character development, and centers around female protagonists and girly bishounen and loads of sappy melodrama. Shounen is more tough-and-tumble, with an emphasis on fighting, explosions, blood, violence, with male protagonists, and females that are primarily just a set of boobs with little between the ears.

Of course shows tend to mix and match elements at will and most of the time the shoujo/shounen dichotomy is meaningless in any practical sense. For some shows, it comes down to what manga anthology magazine it ran in to be the deciding factor, and that's when you know it's lost most of its significance as an element in defining the essence of that show.

And then of course markets in Japan for a show can be shewed towards a very different gender ratio when brought to the US or other countries. The target audience for marketers can change as well. In general, I go with a loose definition of shoujo or shounen, and most of the time I won't use either to define a series, because it just doesn't feel like it would add anything to describing what the show is about. And of course there's seinen and josei and all that other stuff.

Labels can be useful, but often then just make things harder.

...I guess that wasn't really answering your question, but yeah /images/graemlins/sweat000.gif It's a question that CAN be answered, but only so long as you're willing to approach it in a very general, stereotypical way (purely out of intellectual necessity of course, not ignorance or malice). Well, that or devote a huge amount of time to explaining the nuances of gender relationships in any given society ::shrugs::

[Dagger]

If you put together every shoujo series ever made and then put together every shounen series ever made, it will turn out that the shoujo side has more bishounen and the shounen side has more bishoujo. But this falls apart when you examine individual series.

You'll run into some trouble trying to make comparisons of this type because there are gritty, violent shoujo series and sweet, romantic shounen series. That's one of the most wonderful things (IMO) about the whole shounen/shoujo/seinen/josei classification system. For example, in America, romantic films are perceived as being aimed squarely at women unless they're full of fanservice and crude humor. Whereas with anime and manga there's both shoujo romance and shounen romance.

[Redcoffin]

I absolutely think this is an unanswerable question based on art style and story type--you just have to seek out confirmation on which group the individual show was marketed to. Whether the original manga appeared in "Shounen XXX" or "Shoujo YYY" magazine would be a start. I have seen shows that I would have bet money were shoujo, only to find out later that the primary intended audience was boys. Asking us on this board, I am afraid you will mostly get lots of argument and speculation.

[Suwako Moriya]

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disarm said:
For some shows, it comes down to what manga anthology magazine it ran in to be the deciding factor, and that's when you know it's lost most of its significance as an element in defining the essence of that show.

[/ QUOTE ]

That more or less sums it up for me. Seriously the whole "This show is _____" followed by "No, it's _______ because it appears in a _______ magazine" happened way too often. Thus I've stopped caring about the whole classification of shounen vs shoujo. Things are much simpler that way if you ask me.

[itsuka]

I mostly linger on the recommendations forum, and in that context, I find the official magazine based distinction totally meaningless, except for those purists who actually use the magazine argument to select their anime. But most people I know prefer to choose on content, not on weird Japanese publishing preferences.

While it would be technically correct to call Snow Fairy Sugar a shonen anime (shonen magazine), that would definitely not be a helpful distinction for those that prefer the content argument. I have the distinct feeling that in R1 at least it doesn't resonate with the same guys who like more traditional shonen stuff like Dragonball Z and Yu Yu Hakusho.

So, I tend to think what kind content it has and whether it fits the 'romance-emotion-relationship' mould that is often associated with shoujo or 'fighting-adrenaline-competition' mould that is often associated with shonen. And to accommodate the purists, I try to avoid using the terms as much as possible, unless I know absolutely sure that I can use it safely without purists whining over a wrong label.

[Gersen]

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Itsuka said:
I mostly linger on the recommendations forum, and in that context, I find the official magazine based distinction totally meaningless, except for those purists who actually use the magazine argument to select their anime. But most people I know prefer to choose on content, not on weird Japanese publishing preferences.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well it's not meaningless, knowing if a show is Shojo/Shonen/Seinen/etc... comme down to knowing in which magazine it was published. It's easy /images/graemlins/happy.gif all the rest is just fan invention.

No need for complex formula calculating the number of longer haired guys divided by the number of panties shots plus the number of romance to arrive at the conclusion that the show is 28.43948584% Shonen and 71.56051416% Shojo /images/graemlins/happy.gif (I heard this kind of theory before /images/graemlins/happy.gif )

What I find meaningless is to use Shojo/Shonen, etc... as content categories while they are in reality purely marketing categories. I agree with you the important is the content so why describe it using categories that are arbitrary choosed by some japanese publisher instead of using real content categories like "action","comedy",etc...

Gersen

[quenelf]

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Yuzu Hieda said:
That more or less sums it up for me. Seriously the whole "This show is _____" followed by "No, it's _______ because it appears in a _______ magazine" happened way too often. Thus

[/ QUOTE ]

Many of the shows that raise that question are in fact perfectly obvious (i.e. people think it's shoujo but it features a geeky boy ending up with a beautiful girl who keeps falling over on top of him all the time).

But yes, a relatively small proportion of shows are actually borderline enough to make the distinction meaningless.

I think the generalisation is that shoujo tends to be more about emotion and relationships, particularly friendship, as a focus of the story. That doesn't mean there won't be any action in shoujo series but the action tends to be a means to an emotional goal whereas it can be the other way around in shounen series (emotion as a means to action).

--quen

[Johnny]

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Twitch said:
Shounen: There is always a tournament.


[/ QUOTE ]

In Shonen fighting shows maybe, but not in most of them (Fullmetal Alchemist for example).
The Shonen genre displays all typically boyish tendancies - fighting, rivals, friendship, working towards goals, never giving up, competiton, hot girls and so on.

It doesn't have to be all about fighting, but it helps /images/graemlins/happy.gif

Shojo on the other hand is for girls, gay guys and pussies. I hear if you are male and watch too much, you develop feminine tendancies and start liking flowers and stuff.

[alivinglegend]

Thanks for the replies, minnasama! I think I've got all the info I need now.

[DanielJr]

There have been some great replies so far. I wholeheartidly agree with Itsuka's comment on judging from content instead of its original manga publishing magazine. But in either case, I also try to avoid using these terms in general. It honestly adds nothing to an anime's worth.

Here's a bit on target audiences I wrote a while back for my website. If you read it, feel free to pick it apart. Re-reading it now I'm pretty off on a few things.



Shounen
Since it focuses more on boys, there's a lot more emphasis on action and gratuitous female postures ("fanservice"). There's a lot more attention given to intricate political stories as well as giant robots or "mecha." Though in most cases the focus is given to the stories, there is a very popular sub-genre of shounen that takes up the part of romantic comedies. These "harem" anime usually feature one male and various females who often develop romantic feelings for the male, other variations of shounen romantic comedies include a normal guy pairing up with a very beautiful alien or goddess. The romantic sub-genre of shounen anime is very popular and is second only to giant robots. Some popular shounen titles include Mobile Suit Gundam, Dragon Ball Z, Neon Genesis Evangelion, and Ah! My Goddess. Shounen anime composes the majority of anime available in the Region 1 market.


Shoujo
Emphasizes more on characters, drama, relationships and tension. Because it focuses more on females, shoujo anime often features romance stories and beautiful boys or bishounen, usually paired up with normal, bland, or average girls. Bishounens are very popular in shoujo anime and there's quite a lot of titles that features these pretty boys having homosexual relationships or crushes (girls love it), in fact, gay love is so popular in shoujo that it has its own sub-genre: shounen-ai. Though there are lesbians in shounen anime, its popularity is meager compared to the popularity of gay love in shoujo anime. Another popular, perhaps even bigger is the magical-girl genre, or Mahou Shoujo, where most of the action lies. Magical girl shows often feature a normal girl entangled in some sort of mystery or magic that enables her to transform herself into a more powerful and often more beautiful self to take out the monster of the week. I have found that magical girl shows are often more popular with males. Some popular shoujo anime include Sailor Moon, Fruits Basket, Fushigi Yuugi, and X.


Seinen
Because it has a more mature audience in mind, seinen anime often features more serious stories, more graphic violence as well explicit acts of sex. (Anime Porn or "Hentai" is a big part of the market in both Japan and the United States, though it's sad to know the misconceptions people have relating hentai to the other 95% of the medium.) Though right now the seinen market is quite small (besides the porn), there are quite a few noticeable and popular titles in this age range such as Maison Ikkoku, Ai Yori Aoshi, and Ghost in the Shell.


Josei
I'm afraid I have almost no knowledge of the Josei genre of anime. The only Josei anime I know of is Honey and Clover but that's not even available in the United States yet. If I were to guess, I'd guess that Josei anime features more realistic stories, homosexual pornography (for the hentai part), and an overall more soap-opera oriented romance stories.

[golthin]

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johnny said:
Shojo on the other hand is for girls, gay guys and pussies. I hear if you are male and watch too much, you develop feminine tendancies and start liking flowers and stuff.

[/ QUOTE ]
HAHAHAHA! I like Shoujo anime because of the angst and I don't like flowers of have feminine tendencies.

[golthin]

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DanielJr said:
Josei
I'm afraid I have almost no knowledge of the Josei genre of anime. The only Josei anime I know of is Honey and Clover but that's not even available in the United States yet. If I were to guess, I'd guess that Josei anime features more realistic stories, homosexual pornography (for the hentai part), and an overall more soap-opera oriented romance stories.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Tramp like us", "Nana" and "happy Mania" are good examples of Josei.

[Victor Lewandowski]

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golthin said:
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DanielJr said:
Josei
I'm afraid I have almost no knowledge of the Josei genre of anime. The only Josei anime I know of is Honey and Clover but that's not even available in the United States yet. If I were to guess, I'd guess that Josei anime features more realistic stories, homosexual pornography (for the hentai part), and an overall more soap-opera oriented romance stories.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Tramp like us", "Nana" and "happy Mania" are good examples of Josei.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe "Kita e ~Diamond Dust Drops~ (Diamond Daydreams)" is considered a Josei title too.

[martod]

To be perfectly honest I think the terms Shounen and Shoujo are becoming obsolete simply because shounen has for a while been encroaching on Shoujo's territory. Currently shounen can be anything from Dragon Ball Z to Little Snow Fairy Sugar. There's a bunch of shounen shows which are basically shoujo shows with a slightly higher number of bishoujo. There are even shounen magical girl shows now(Nanoha is 100% shounen--the official art makes that very clear).

[philnicau]

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marko said:
To be perfectly honest I think the terms Shounen and Shoujo are becoming obsolete simply because shounen has for a while been encroaching on Shoujo's territory. Currently shounen can be anything from Dragon Ball Z to Little Snow Fairy Sugar. There's a bunch of shounen shows which are basically shoujo shows with a slightly higher number of bishoujo. There are even shounen magical girl shows now(Nanoha is 100% shounen--the official art makes that very clear).

[/ QUOTE ]

The terms have always been unclear in respect to some animes, it's really only Manga where you can make a clear distinction (IE: its a shoujo manga because it was published in a Shoujo Magazine), especially Anime which were not based on a Manga eg: Princess Nine.

[LimePie]

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DanielJr said:

Shounen
...and Ah! My Goddess.

[/ QUOTE ]

A!MG is seinen.

[Gersen]

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DanielJr said:
Though right now the seinen market is quite small (besides the porn), there are quite a few noticeable and popular titles in this age range such as Maison Ikkoku, Ai Yori Aoshi, and Ghost in the Shell.

[/ QUOTE ]

Quite small ???

Ok let's make a quick little (and incomplete) list :

-Azumanga Daioh
-Berserk
-AMG
-King of Bandit Jing
-Comic Party
-Di Gi Charat
-Boogiepop Phantom
-Ichigo Mashimaro (Yes it IS a seinen /images/graemlins/wink.gif )
-Tsukihime
-Naru Taru
-GUNNM (Battle Angel Alita for those readind the Viz version)
-BIG-O
-Initial D
-Shakugan no Shana
-Gunsmiths Cats
-Akira
-Aria
-Chobits
-Crying Freeman
-Basilisk
-Gankutsuou
-Genshiken
-Gantz
-Hellsing
-Mahoromatic
-Planetes
-Trigun
-You are under arest
-xxxHolic (NO it's not a shojo)
-First of the North Star
-Nyan Nyan Naruto
-Koi Kaze
-Ikkitousen
-Elfen Lied
-Gunslinger Girl
-Kamichu
-Onegai Teacher
-Onegai Twins
-To Heart
-Uchuu no Stellvia
-Nin Nin Shinobuden (Ninja Nonsense)

There is a GOOD number of Seinen titles available in R1, it's just that a lot of peoples mistaken them for Shonen or Shojo /images/graemlins/wink.gif

Gersen

[Yukino Miyazawa]

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Victor Lewandowski said:
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golthin said:
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DanielJr said:
Josei
I'm afraid I have almost no knowledge of the Josei genre of anime. The only Josei anime I know of is Honey and Clover but that's not even available in the United States yet. If I were to guess, I'd guess that Josei anime features more realistic stories, homosexual pornography (for the hentai part), and an overall more soap-opera oriented romance stories.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Tramp like us", "Nana" and "happy Mania" are good examples of Josei.

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe "Kita e ~Diamond Dust Drops~ (Diamond Daydreams)" is considered a Josei title too.

[/ QUOTE ]
Gokusen is josei, and it's neither pornographic nor soap opera romance.

[something]

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Gersen said:
There is a GOOD number of Seinen titles available in R1, it's just that a lot of peoples mistaken them for Shonen or Shojo /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
That would be because the staggering variety on that list makes the term for all practical uses, utterly meaningless. Azu and Berserk and Stellvia and Chobits.

...Riiight. The ONLY thing they share in common would be their magazines then. No wonder people don't pay attention to the labels then. And for good reason.

[musouka]

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disarm said:
...Riiight. The ONLY thing they share in common would be their magazines then. No wonder people don't pay attention to the labels then. And for good reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

Shoujo and shounen aren't genres, and they're not useless classifications. I wish people would understand that. There is no main unifying theme between shounen or shoujo except for one thing. The genders they are individually aimed at.

People here have trouble with this because they make the type of assumptions that are rife in this topic. Oh, yes, of course that "cool stuff" is aimed at guys and all "girly romance shit" is aimed at girls. Except, you know, NOT.

Why do I like the terms shounen and shoujo? (And seinen and ladies?)

I love being able to tell guys that the hardboiled story about New York gangs is aimed at girls. Or perhaps it's that grisly horror manga. Or that sports manga. Or that raunchy comedy. Or that samurai epic. Or that murder mystery series. Or that awesome sci-fi series. All of them are meant for me. Oh, sure, you can enjoy them all you want, but that won't change the fact that I am the target audience.

Oh, the stuff for you guys? Yes, it does include that sweet, gentle romantic comedy. Yes, it is that slice of life series about a girl studying to be a magician. Yes, that magical girl series is aimed at you too. Yes, that sugary cute series with the huge eyes isn't for me, it's for you.

Not all action series are aimed at boys. Not all romance is for girls. And I have a feeling, if left to their own devices, that is how manga would be broken down in America. The guys get everything they like, and all that leftover romance or cutesy stuff is for us girls.

That is why the "shoujo" and "shounen" labels are useful, because paradoxically it forces people to become aware that both genders have choices beyond what they are "supposed" to be interested in.

[Gersen]

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disarm said:
The ONLY thing they share in common would be their magazines then. No wonder people don't pay attention to the labels then. And for good reason.

[/ QUOTE ]

But that's exactly the point, it IS meaningless to use Shojo/Shonen/Seinen for content description because they are not meaned for that.

By using them it's like if you were saying : "HBO TV series often contains Sex and violence so when a TV serie contains Sex and Violence we can say it's a HBO serie, no matter if it was produced by Fox,Universal, or anybody else"

Gersen

[Yukino Miyazawa]

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disarm said:
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Gersen said:
There is a GOOD number of Seinen titles available in R1, it's just that a lot of peoples mistaken them for Shonen or Shojo /images/graemlins/wink.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
That would be because the staggering variety on that list makes the term for all practical uses, utterly meaningless. Azu and Berserk and Stellvia and Chobits.

...Riiight. The ONLY thing they share in common would be their magazines then. No wonder people don't pay attention to the labels then. And for good reason.

[/ QUOTE ]
If you think about it, it makes sense. Seinen just means it's aimed toward young men. Both of the main guys in Chobits and Ah! My Goddess are college age. Azumanga is about cute girls doing cute things, like comparing breast sizes. No wonder lots of guys like it. /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[Dagger]

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musouka said:
That is why the "shoujo" and "shounen" labels are useful, because paradoxically it forces people to become aware that both genders have choices beyond what they are "supposed" to be interested in.

[/ QUOTE ]
Very well put. It took me a long time to grasp this concept, but it's for the reasons you outlined in your post that these labels are so valuable. You just phrased it much better than I ever could have. /images/graemlins/tongue.gif

[Orihara_Kaoru]

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musouka said:
That is why the "shoujo" and "shounen" labels are useful, because paradoxically it forces people to become aware that both genders have choices beyond what they are "supposed" to be interested in.

[/ QUOTE ]

I completely agree. Thank you for phrasing your argument so coherently. /images/graemlins/happy.gif

[golthin]

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musouka said:


That is why the "shoujo" and "shounen" labels are useful, because paradoxically it forces people to become aware that both genders have choices beyond what they are "supposed" to be interested in.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree and I think calling it "lebels" is better than call it a Genre. When I hear Genre I think more of Drama, Horror, Comedy, Mech, Harem, etc