Are You Concerned About ADV Possibly "Butchering" the Gundam References in Sgt.Frog?

[bci110]

My apologies is this was broght up before, but from reading the posts in the Region 1 forum about ADV's acquisition of Sgt. Frog, I was wondering if anyone is concerned about how they will handle the Gundam references contained in the series? This basically stems from what I was reading over at the Anime News Network froum, where their mod Nagisa wrote this (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=29589&postdays=0&postorder=asc&sta rt=45) in response to one of my posts there:

[ QUOTE ]
Nagisa wrote:And with ADV getting three Gundam references wrong to every one they got right in past liner notes and Vid Notes, yes, I'm dreading this release. Not merely as a Gundam otaku, but as a Keroro fan who knows the comedy just doesn't work if the company handling it doesn't know jack about what they're translating. This isn't Gundam fanboy rantings; given the very core nature of the show's comedy, ADV's obvious cluelessness about Gundam WILL sorely hurt the quality of this release.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not a Gundam fan, and granted I've only watched two series in the franchise (G Gundam and Gundam SEED), so the Gundam references are irrelevant to my interest in the series. I'm sure that ADV will do the research necessary to create a satisfactory release. My interest level in Sgt. Frog stems more on the fact that the series was directed by Junichi Sato. I haven't seen this series yet, but from the feedback that I've been reading over the last 24 hours it seems that there's enough comedy and excitement that non-Gundam fans like myself can enjoy this series, whether they botch the references or not. I'm hoping someone from ADV will see this post and give us some insight as to how they will handle the references in Sgt. Frog. /images/graemlins/keroro.gif

[Njr Scrawl]

I've read the thread & it sounds like ADV's notes are off-the-cuff/top-of-head more than researched.

Prefectural Earth Defence Force had a couple mistakes in its commentary I noticed (but was otherwise enjoyable).

Animeigo misses things in their notes for UY that surprise me. Other companies missing or getting notes wrong is no real surprise. Has Bandai ever done notes for any of its shows in the past?

[TalonG4]

I highly doubt ADV is clueless about Gundam.

[Vicserr]

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TalonG4 said:
I highly doubt ADV is clueless about Gundam.

[/ QUOTE ]

ain't that right...hopefully they get someone with Gundam knowledge to fill them in /images/graemlins/stunned1.gif

ADV did miss an easy reference about Gaiking in the Giant Robot parody eps of Magical Shopping Arcade Abenobashi

[Gersen]

Well like I said in the R1 Keroro thread, I am glad ADV got it because I was pretty sure that if this serie was ever to be licensed in R1 it would be by those incompetents of Viz or 4Kids.

So having it licensed by ADV instead is a good news, at least we can expect a uncut, overlays and hard-subs free release (Keroro having a good amount of on-screen text).

Of course when it come to liners note, it would probably have been better if it has been licensed by Animeigo(if they avoid Star Trek references) or Rightstuf but, as long as ADV put some care in it and doesn't pull another Azumanga it should be ok, at least I hope so.

People mention Bandai, but honestly, after the CotS/BotS/Gundam Z mess, I rather not have them touch Keroro translation with a 10 bilion kilometers pole /images/graemlins/depresse.gif

Gersen

Of all the US companies out there, ADV is probably the best in catching the Gundam references in Keroro Gunsou. I can't think of another company that'll take the time to do all the research. Still, I'm sure they'll miss a few. I remember them missing one particular Gundam joke in Excel Saga.

What would be nice is a site where a fan like nagisa can tell us all the in-jokes he caught while watching Keroro. ^^;

[Kellory]

Personally I dont think ADV potentially missing a few references would constitute "Butchering". Unless butchering now means making honest mistakes. Will ADV miss some references? I dont doubt it. Will they butcher it? I dont think so. Will they try their best to get it right? I'm sure.

The unfortunate fact is that many shows, especially parody shows, tend to have a lot of injokes and references to obscure Japanese pop culture. I think its unrealistic for them to get them all. Many Japanese will miss many of them. And while Gundam is fairly ubiquitous, the simple fact is that no one is really going to be up on everything. Bandai would probably end up missing a few because there are so many. And its not like they always get scripts and layouts to help. Often they have to piece it together like any other viewer, by simply watching it.

ADV has the most experience in dealing with parody shows like this. I believe only TRSI has really dealt with the genre. So it would appear the options are to either have ADV potentially miss a few references and bring the entire series over, or else watch it sit and languish in License Land because no one else would be interested.

I think most people would agree the tradeoff is acceptable.

[Njr Scrawl]

Media Blasters had excellent notes for Rurouni Kenshin TV. There were none on ADV's OVA or movie releases (though I'm glad the R2J seiyuu interviews were included).

[HitokiriShadow]

Nagisa's complaint wasn't just about them missing it, but being flat out wrong in their notes related to Gundam.

Nagisa made at least two posts on the subject, and the quote in the beginning of this thread is only the second paragraph of the second post.

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][b]Nagisa said:They will, but their explanations will be horrifically incorrect. Excel Saga's Vid Notes had me cringing, as I don't remember them actually getting a single Gundam reference right. In the Matsumoto parody episode with the Puchu White Base, they not only got every crew member's name mixed up (Frau is Sayla, Sayla is Mirai, that sort of thing), but I think they even described it as being from "Gundam Wing," if I recall (I know they did that at some point in the series, just not sure if it's during the White Base parody or not).

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the thread (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/bbs/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=29589&postdays=0&postorder=asc&sta rt=15)

[Lego]

I'm curious if ADV is eying a television run. In that case, all bets are off.

[Kellory]

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HitokiriShadow said:
Nagisa's complaint wasn't just about them missing it, but being flat out wrong in their notes related to Gundam.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I saw that. The thing is that linear notes and Vid Notes are extras. As such arent really subject to the same QC as say the sub or dub script. They rely on people with knowledge of Japan and pop culture to find those references. And they'll miss some. And miss will mean sometimes not see them, and sometimes get them wrong. As ubiquitous as Gundam is, not everyone who is very familier with Japanese pop culture will be knowledgeable about Gundam. So yes, they will get some things wrong.

Now if Sgt. Frog has mostly Gundum referances, then hopefully they'll get someone who knows a lot about Gundam. But ultimately these are extras. If seeing them incorrect is that annoying, one can always turn Vid Notes off and see how many you'll get without them.

Its not butchering the show. Its merely getting the cultural referances wrong or missing some. That happens. Hopefully it will be better in Sgt Frog, but its understandable in a show like Excell Saga where a broad knowledge of Japan would be better than someone who was super knowledgeable in just 1 genre. Hell, a few years ago some friends and I had a couple of Japanese exchange students over at my place because they heard I had some Anime. They immediately grabbed Excell Saga from the shelf since they had seen it. And were, frankly, amazed at how many things they had missed from it originally when they saw it in Japan.

And its not like ADV gets notes from the license holder on these things. They typically get the show, the language and Background music tracks, and sometimes a script. The problem even with the script is that often is not a working copy, but an original copy which often as not is a fairly useless thing since the dialog typically gets a number of changes. So often they have to start from scratch. Same deal with catching parodies. Scratch.

Personally I'm going to cut ADV some slack because right now I dont know how they're going to handle it. And even if they get some of it wrong, I'm still watching it for the show. I know enough about Gundam that it probably wont matter to me. I'll just keep the Vid Notes off, or else keep em on and laugh even more when they get it wrong. Hell, its a parody, nothing wrong with extra laughter.

[LexiJ]

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Kellory said:
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HitokiriShadow said:
Nagisa's complaint wasn't just about them missing it, but being flat out wrong in their notes related to Gundam.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, I saw that. The thing is that linear notes and Vid Notes are extras. As such arent really subject to the same QC as say the sub or dub script.

[/ QUOTE ]
But if they're going to put them there, and present them as accurate, then they should be subject to the same QC so they are accurate (not just ADV, but every company including them). Otherwise, don't do them at all. What's the good of the information if it's wrong? Find other padding to make it look like your disc has more on it than it really does. ADV is good at padding discs with English language extras, so that shouldn't be a problem.

Of course, ADV might get it right (can we place bets? /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif ). Who knows? /images/graemlins/catgirl0.gif

[Yuriko]

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Kellory said:So it would appear the options are to either have ADV potentially miss a few references and bring the entire series over, or else watch it sit and languish in License Land because no one else would be interested.

I think most people would agree the tradeoff is acceptable.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absolutely. Gundam exists over here (er, there - in the US, I mean ;P) anyway. The Gundam otaku among us can watch Gundam and not miss a thing, as has been suggested, create a website or FAQ to enlighten Keroro fans which would be a great idea. I loved reading the pages of "what we couldn't fit on the DVDs" notes from the Nadesico translator, and I don't even like Nadesico. At this stage I'm just happy ADV is bringing this to English speakers, my boyfriend is thrilled too, whether it even has vid notes or not.

It would be nice in a perfect world to have perfect notes too (but which company has honestly even got perfect subs right yet? I spot errors from them all, and I'm not about to quit anime just because of the typos). Jokes like that work best to me though if they're not explained. When a show does an obligatory Cutie Honey parody, I laugh because I instantly recognise it and see the joke. If it's explained to me, I laugh a little but miss the full impact. No matter how well it was explained in the subs/notes/translation. So what's the point in complaining about notes which don't exist yet? More constructively, how about a thread somewhere for ADV to point out some of the more obscure ones? Even if they still miss them out, it will be a good resource for new Keroro fans to catch up, and more useful to ADV as a hint than just whining at them.

~Y (I love ADV's work, so speaks my wallet)

[Raye]

I'm honestly more concerned about how they'll reference Keroro. I just hope he isn't called "Sgt. Frog" throughout their entire release of the series... Anyway, I don't know if ADV would go to the lengths of writing linear notes for the series. Each episode contains a couple of anime and manga references, some having more, of course. Media Blasters and TRSI have had notes included in their releases, and I don't remember ADV doing anything extra other than including DVD-exclusive interviews of the original cast. Then again, ADV could surprise all of us with a really dedicated release that will turn out true to the fans. As much as I love Keroro Gunsou, I will just hope for the best and wait for the reviews.

[martod]

You're absolutely right that the series can be enjoyed without seeing the Gundam references. I know next to nothing about Gundam and still found the series very funny. There are parodies, but there's also a lot of universal humor that doesn't need an explanation. Come to think of it, vid-notes and liner notes aren't going to help non-gundam fans find the Gundam references funny anyway--jokes are never funny if they need an explanation.

[Kellory]

[ QUOTE ]
Raye said:
I'm honestly more concerned about how they'll reference Keroro. I just hope he isn't called "Sgt. Frog" throughout their entire release of the series... Anyway, I don't know if ADV would go to the lengths of writing linear notes for the series. Each episode contains a couple of anime and manga references, some having more, of course. Media Blasters and TRSI have had notes included in their releases, and I don't remember ADV doing anything extra other than including DVD-exclusive interviews of the original cast.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he'll retain his original name. Its been a long time since studio's have renamed characters. 4Kids notwithstanding of course. Now whether or not the dub will pronounce it correct...is a different story. But we'll see.

As for linear notes, ADV has included linear notes before. SuperGALS! season 1 had them. I'm sure I've seen them elsewhere before as well. More to the point, in lieu of linear notes, ADV usually uses their ADVid Notes thing for onscreen linear notes. They've done this for Excell Saga, Abenobashi, and one other that escapes me at least. I would imagine we'd see Vid Notes here.

Since most studio's dont offer any extras other than a clean opening/closing and some trailers at most, anything that ADV does is welcome by me.

[Fencedude]

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Kellory said:


As for linear notes,

[/ QUOTE ]


Argh.

LINER NOTES.

Not LINEAR Notes.

Linear Notes would be notes all written out in a straight line.

[Kellory]

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Fencedude said:
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Kellory said:


As for linear notes,

[/ QUOTE ]


Argh.

LINER NOTES.

Not LINEAR Notes.

Linear Notes would be notes all written out in a straight line.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hush, I was in a hurry when I wrote that.

Anyway, I am waiting for the day they do Linear Notes.

On a scroll.

Preferally right to left.

Japanese style.

That would be awesome.

[pig_man]

[ QUOTE ]
Fencedude said:
[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:


As for linear notes,

[/ QUOTE ]


Argh.

LINER NOTES.

Not LINEAR Notes.

Linear Notes would be notes all written out in a straight line.

[/ QUOTE ]
Fencedude, you are my hero!

And to help others remember the correct spelling, here is the description of liner notes from webster.com:

"Main Entry: liner notes
Function: noun plural
: comments or explanatory notes about a recording printed on the jacket or an insert"

[LexiJ]

[ QUOTE ]
Kellory said:
[ QUOTE ]
Raye said:
I'm honestly more concerned about how they'll reference Keroro. I just hope he isn't called "Sgt. Frog" throughout their entire release of the series...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he'll retain his original name.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on how they think name is supposed to be heard/interrpreted. The did decide that Ahiru should be Duck, after all. It's not really 4Kids style renaming, but rather a translation choice.

[Bibulb]

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Fencedude said:
LINER NOTES.

Not LINEAR Notes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for sounding like a pedantic tightass so that *I* don't have to do so.

(Because I was TOTALLY about to be a pedantic tightass.)

[something]

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Bibulb said:
Thank you, thank you, thank you for sounding like a pedantic tightass so that *I* don't have to do so.
(Because I was TOTALLY about to be a pedantic tightass.)

[/ QUOTE ]
I have to second that (well, third). I want to say something everytime I see that, but always bite my tongue XD

[Kellory]

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LexiJ said:
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Kellory said:
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Raye said:
I'm honestly more concerned about how they'll reference Keroro. I just hope he isn't called "Sgt. Frog" throughout their entire release of the series...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he'll retain his original name.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on how they think name is supposed to be heard/interrpreted. The did decide that Ahiru should be Duck, after all. It's not really 4Kids style renaming, but rather a translation choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that is a good point. However, I still think the name change from Princess Tutu was more because it wouldnt have made much sense otherwise. <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>The average viewer who watched the show wouldnt know what Ahiru means Duck. And she talks about herself quite a bit. Listening to her say, "But I"m just an ahiru" would make less sense than "But I'm just a Duck". It sounds right in Japanese, but really dumb in English.</span>

Its not quite the same with Sgt. Frog though. If they make that change, it'd more likely be because none of the VA's can pronounce the name correctly. The fact that they changed 1 name in dozens, if not hundreds of released shows isnt a track record, but a precedent. And not one that I'd say right off applies. At least, I dont think so. I've only seen a few episodes that friends have brought over, but I dont think he refers to himself the way Tutu does.

[EmperorBrandon]

Changing Keroro's name wouldn't make much sense to me. It doesn't even mean "frog". It's after the Japanese onomatopoeia for frog sounds. Then they would have to come up with names for the rest of Keroro's platoon to be consistent, and that would be a mess. I honestly don't think they're going to change his name.

[gpn]

Did the Japanese DVD release include liner notes explaining all the Gundam references?

Is Sgt. Frog supposed to be a show that educates the general populace about Gundam minutiae?

I know a bit about Gundam having watched some episodes on Cartoon Network, but in no way could I be considered a Gundam expert. I'm sure I've missed many parodied elements (and not just Gundam-related), but I'm still able to enjoy the manga series quite a bit.

Just remember the old adage, that if you have to explain a joke, it's not funny. While I did enjoy AnimEigo's release of Urusei Yatsura, not once did the liner notes make the show more humorous for me.

If ADV decides to include liner notes or VidNotes with Sgt. Frog, I will certainly appreciate it, but I'll look at as a nice extra and not something vital to enjoying the show.

[Mr. Nail Bat]

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EmperorBrandon said:
Changing Keroro's name wouldn't make much sense to me. It doesn't even mean "frog". It's after the Japanese onomatopoeia for frog sounds.

[/ QUOTE ]

I demand that he be called "Sgt. Brek-kek-kek-ko-ax-ko-ax."

[Njr Scrawl]

So the English version would be "Sergeant ribbit" /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

In Princess Tutu <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>for the subtitles at least "Duck" is used as a personal name, so "Ahiru", "duck" is used as common/type-gender name. Perhaps ADV could have combined the 2. In English dialogue, it would still have been possible, but harder, by VAs using emphasis &amp; tone when speaking the word.</span>


I'd rather have printed liner notes, rather than liner notes in the extras section or vid notes/2nd subtitle stream. Perhaps the best compromise is what ADV did for City Hunter, &amp; some rare proper fansubs do, which is put all notes for an episode at the start of the episode to which they apply (in "omake space") before that episode's opening credits.

[LexiJ]

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gpn said:
Did the Japanese DVD release include liner notes explaining all the Gundam references?

Is Sgt. Frog supposed to be a show that educates the general populace about Gundam minutiae?

[/ QUOTE ]
You miss part of the point. ADV includes liner notes, but the information is wrong. If they're going to do it, they should do it right or not do it all.

[populuxe]

I am not worried in the least that ADV is going to "butcher" the Gundam references in Sgt. Frog. Will they miss a few? More than likely. They're only human. Sgt. Frog is so loaded with Gundam references, you could probably get the entire "Hajime Yatate" group to list all the Gundam references for you and they'd still miss a few. ADV will do a good job, and when they miss a few references, it will give the Gundam otaku something to talk about and show off their superior knowledge. So everybody wins.

[populuxe]

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Kellory said:
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LexiJ said:
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Kellory said:
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Raye said:
I'm honestly more concerned about how they'll reference Keroro. I just hope he isn't called "Sgt. Frog" throughout their entire release of the series...

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm sure he'll retain his original name.

[/ QUOTE ]

Depends on how they think name is supposed to be heard/interrpreted. The did decide that Ahiru should be Duck, after all. It's not really 4Kids style renaming, but rather a translation choice.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, that is a good point. However, I still think the name change from Princess Tutu was more because it wouldnt have made much sense otherwise. <span style='color:#dddddd;background:#dddddd'>The average viewer who watched the show wouldnt know what Ahiru means Duck. And she talks about herself quite a bit. Listening to her say, "But I"m just an ahiru" would make less sense than "But I'm just a Duck". It sounds right in Japanese, but really dumb in English.</span>

Its not quite the same with Sgt. Frog though. If they make that change, it'd more likely be because none of the VA's can pronounce the name correctly. The fact that they changed 1 name in dozens, if not hundreds of released shows isnt a track record, but a precedent. And not one that I'd say right off applies. At least, I dont think so. I've only seen a few episodes that friends have brought over, but I dont think he refers to himself the way Tutu does.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm betting what little credibility I have that ADV won't change Keroro's name. Why would they? What would they change Giroro and Tamama and Dororo and Kururu's names to? If they change one name, they'd have to change all the other names, too, right? No, they'll keep all the names as is. The Keronian names are simply puns on the sounds frogs make and they work in English as well as Japanese. The Ahiru/Duck name change is a completely different issue, and has no bearing on this title.

[kamillebidan]

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Wrath of the Njr said:
So the English version would be "Sergeant ribbit" /images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
Jeebus. Don't give them ideas...

[NeoEra]

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Mike Dungan said:
I'm betting what little credibility I have that ADV won't change Keroro's name. Why would they? What would they change Giroro and Tamama and Dororo and Kururu's names to?

[/ QUOTE ]

The description of the first volume at Diamond Comics (http://videovault.diamondcomics.com/update/dec_06/dec_06_qz.htm) uses Keroro so I figure that's what they went with.

But I'm pretty convinced that "Kululu" is supposed to be the character's name because I see it used consistently on merchandise:
Kululu Kaiyodo figure (http://www.1999.co.jp/dbimages/user/hobby/itbig/10044483p.jpg)
Keroro In Action figure Kululu (http://www.jpmon.com/jp5/prod_detail.asp?pid=WLM08-348968&amp;src=)
Keroro Gunsou Plamo Collection Kululu (http://www.discountanimedvd.com/detail.asp?dvdno=20717&amp;cateName=Sgt%2E+Frog)
Kululu Robo (http://hobbyworld.aoshima-bk.co.jp/scripts/hw/seek.aspx?seek_code=BAN146731)
Kululu mug, Kululu cushion (http://www.bandai.co.jp/fashion/tuhan/keroro/index.html)

[populuxe]

[ QUOTE ]
NeoEra said:
[ QUOTE ]
Mike Dungan said:
I'm betting what little credibility I have that ADV won't change Keroro's name. Why would they? What would they change Giroro and Tamama and Dororo and Kururu's names to?

[/ QUOTE ]

The description of the first volume at Diamond Comics (http://videovault.diamondcomics.com/update/dec_06/dec_06_qz.htm) uses Keroro so I figure that's what they went with.

But I'm pretty convinced that "Kululu" is supposed to be the character's name because I see it used consistently on merchandise:
Kululu Kaiyodo figure (http://www.1999.co.jp/dbimages/user/hobby/itbig/10044483p.jpg)
Keroro In Action figure Kululu (http://www.jpmon.com/jp5/prod_detail.asp?pid=WLM08-348968&amp;src=)
Keroro Gunsou Plamo Collection Kululu (http://www.discountanimedvd.com/detail.asp?dvdno=20717&amp;cateName=Sgt%2E+Frog)
Kululu Robo (http://hobbyworld.aoshima-bk.co.jp/scripts/hw/seek.aspx?seek_code=BAN146731)
Kululu mug, Kululu cushion (http://www.bandai.co.jp/fashion/tuhan/keroro/index.html)

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm fine with either one.