"Moé" shows - what is, should be & should not be licensed?

[Njr Scrawl]

Moé shows are good for the soul. Moé shows are likely good for physical parts too :P They can give you a warm fuzzy feeling & can lift you up when you're feeling down. :neko:

What shows you consider moé are R1 licensed already, what are not & should be, & what should not be?

[Fencedude]

Argh.

"Moe" IS NOT A GENRE dammit.

Stop trying to classify shows as "moe". CHARACTERS are Moe, not shows.

[Ty]

Perhaps you could edit the topic to be about shows which focus on or feature several moe characters?

[something]

Argh.
"Moe" IS NOT A GENRE dammit.
Stop trying to classify shows as "moe". CHARACTERS are Moe, not shows.
Just what I was thinking. There are certainly shows with a lot of characteristically "moe" individuals in them, but there's nothing officially genre about moe, in my opinion. Since characters that are (aka I consider to be) moe can show up in all different kinds of shows, it's hard to come up with a list that means anything.

About the best anyone could do is post a list of "cute" shows but it's not necessarily the same thing.

[gpn]

I want to know why there's an accent on the "e".

[ADC]

I want to know why there's an accent on the "e".
Because Moe is the Stooge who always smacks the others, and Moé is an animé term.

[pianocello]

Argh.

"Moe" IS NOT A GENRE dammit.

Stop trying to classify shows as "moe". CHARACTERS are Moe, not shows.



I think he's talking about what shows have moe characters in them. There's no need to always jump in and try to correct others just to prove a point. Just let him be.

[Pelianth]

I want to know why there's an accent on the "e".
Because Njr accents any e that's pronounced /e/.

[martod]

Argh.

"Moe" IS NOT A GENRE dammit.

Stop trying to classify shows as "moe". CHARACTERS are Moe, not shows.



I think he's talking about what shows have moe characters in them.
I'd say somewhere between 60% and 90% of all anime shows contain moe characters, depending on your definition of moe. :D

Oddly enough, off the top of my head, I can think of only two shows that have enough moe to be classified as "moe shows", and both of them predate the moe craze--Card Captor Sakura and Sister Princess.

[EmperorBrandon]

In going with you initial description, then I would say Mahoraba ~Heartful days~ (though as with the others, calling "moe" a genre is a point of contention).

[EmperorBrandon]

Oddly enough, off the top of my head, I can think of only two shows that have enough moe to be classified as "moe shows", and both of them predate the moe craze--Card Captor Sakura and Sister Princess.

Well, there is Kokoro Library, which IMO is moe to the extreme. CCS is lighthearted, feel-good, and all, but doesn't really strike me as "moe", though Sister Princess certainly does.

[golthin]

Argh.

"Moe" IS NOT A GENRE dammit.

Stop trying to classify shows as "moe". CHARACTERS are Moe, not shows.

hahaha! You are fighting a losing battle there.
IT is the same as trying to convince that a 16 year guy dating a 14 year old girl is not Lolicon.

[SnowfairyX]

What shows you consider moé are R1 licensed already,
Bottle Fairy, Chobits, Gunslinger Girl, Kamichu!, Magical Meow Meow Taruto, Mao-chan, Moon Phase, Stellvia, Strawberry Marshmallow, Sugar: A Little Snow Fairy

what are not & should be,
Air, Aishiteruze Baby, Bincho-tan, Higurashi no Naku koro ni, Pita Ten

what should not be?
Chocotto Sister, Rizelmine (I'd buy them anyway if they were :nervous: )

[treatment]

Argh.

"Moe" IS NOT A GENRE dammit.

Stop trying to classify shows as "moe". CHARACTERS are Moe, not shows.



I think he's talking about what shows have moe characters in them. There's no need to always jump in and try to correct others just to prove a point. Just let him be.

Are we sure Njr's not talking about M.O.E shows (http://www.ponycanyon.co.jp/pc-moe/) ? :nervous: :tired:

[robotech]

Equal time for Larry and Curly! And Shemp, even!

(But I draw the line at the fake Shemps.)

[Isuzu Inugami]

Higurashi no Naku koro ni,


This is moe?

<explodes>

[Fencedude]

Psycho-moe

[Isuzu Inugami]

Psycho-moe


Awwww, she's wielding a bloody knife, screaming, and her pupils have gone all cat-like. I just wanna hug her, the dear little thing!

<explodes again>

[TalonG4]

Psycho-moe


Awwww, she's wielding a bloody knife, screaming, and her pupils have gone all cat-like. I just wanna hug her, the dear little thing!

<explodes again>

Neko! That's ultra moe.

(How do you put in the accent?)

[Fencedude]

(How do you put in the accent?)

You don't.

[Isuzu Inugami]

(How do you put in the accent?)

You don't.


Heh. You would hold down ALT and type in 130, but you don't want to do that becaue you'd basically be using French accent marks on Japanese words in an English romanization scheme. If you followed that to its logical conclusion, things would get very messy. And anyway, you'd have to use it for every Japanese e, and talking about whether Réi from Évangélion is kiréi, tsundéré, or yes, moé just starts getting goofy.

[quenelf]

Fencedude is dead right. It's a Japanese word; there is no style of transliteration (except the 'wrong style') that includes accents on 'e'. So アニメ is anime and もえ is moe, and まんが is manga not mahnga. English conventions display foreign words as they are written in the foreign language, not with additional accents or otherwise re-spelled for easier pronunciation according to English rules.

If you really want to indicate that it's a foreign word, use italics; anime or moe. This indicates that pronunciation may differ from English rules, such as there are. (There are rules in English pronunciation - many, many different and conflicting rules. :) ) This could be important when writing for a general audience. On a forum like this however you can assume that many Japanese words are expected and there is no need for any special treatment.

For example, the Latin phrase 'per se' is written like that, and not 'per sé' or 'per say' (except by people who don't know how to spell it).

However if you want to type accents for some other reason, the most reliable way on Windows is to use the 'charmap' utility (Start/Run/charmap, or find it in the menus). Charmap will let you select the character and copy it; it'll also tell you the number of the character which you can then type as Alt-0xxx on the number pad.

Some Windows programs also support more memorable key shortcuts; Ctrl-' e would give you the E accent.

On Mac OS X, Option-E e gives you é.

--quen

[something]

Bottle Fairy, Chobits, Gunslinger Girl, Kamichu!, Magical Meow Meow Taruto, Mao-chan, Moon Phase, Stellvia, Strawberry Marshmallow, Sugar: A Little Snow Fairy
...
Air, Aishiteruze Baby, Bincho-tan, Higurashi no Naku koro ni, Pita Ten
...
Chocotto Sister, Rizelmine (I'd buy them anyway if they were :nervous: )
I offer this post as definitive proof that moe can not possibly be considered a genre.

Not that that doesn't mean I'm objecting at all to any claims that those shows contain some moe characters. Of the ones I'm familiar with, at least one character fits at least partly the characteristics I consider moe. Although from what I could stomach of Higu, it would be moe in very, very twisted ways :sd:

[something]

I want to know why there's an accent on the "e".
It's Njr's trademark, I think >_> Logic and grammar be damned! =P

[Thanatos]

Mamoru-kun from Mamoru-kun ni Megami no Fukushuku wo! and Popo from Mushiking are hella moe.

[Serial Experiments Nobue]

There are certainly shows with a lot of characteristically "moe" individuals in them, but there's nothing officially genre about moe, in my opinion. Since characters that are (aka I consider to be) moe can show up in all different kinds of shows, it's hard to come up with a list that means anything.

That's about how I see it too.

Sure, I get all warm and fuzzy when I watch the typically-accepted-as-moe characters like Sakura Kinomoto (CCS) or Matsuri Sakuragi (Strawberry Marshmallow), but if you go by what I believe is the generally accepted definition of "moe" ['feelings of affection and caring in a protective way over a character' is how I interpret it], then falling under that banner - for me - would also be Rakka from Haibane Renmei and Mayuko from NieA_7.

In fact, Mayuko would be my #1 moe character, and she's certainly not what most people probably think of when someone says moe. She's not under 12 and doesn't have large innocent eyes. But she is the character, who when I watch her, I have the most feelings of wanting to protect and care for. (This probably also explains why Mayuko is my overall favorite anime character. :nervous: )

Moe is very subjective, I think. I also agree that it's characters and not shows that are moe. And now that I think about it, even Ran from Texhnolyze would qualify - for me. How's that for breaking the mold? ;)

[Lego]

Hmm, I agree with NieA's way of looking at things. To me, Moe is cute, thats it. Sure you have the creepy lolicon thing, but I don't hear moe and think "zomg lolicon". Moe to me is something like Ryo Ohki in Tenchi. Most non serious(no Hellsing of Black Lagoon here) shows have at least one character who is "moe" or has "moe" moments. I personally don't mind them, as long as it isn't the sole bases of the show. I'm not going to watch a show because "ZOMG these girls are so moe". Uh ok, hows the story their tex?

[something]

I'm not going to watch a show because "ZOMG these girls are so moe". Uh ok, hows the story there tex?
I'm a firm proponent of the belief that not every show needs a good story, or much of one at all. Comedies especially. Shows can get along quite well without a significant narrative element.

For some shows, far more important things are character interaction (Azumanga), how the story is told rather than what it tells (Haruhi), surreal oddity (Hare+Guu) or just pure hilarity (Galaxy Angel). Having a completely cliche story (Hand Maid May) is by no means an obstacle for me with shows either. I just bought Sister Princess, and I have no intention of watching that for story either, and I don't think that will have an impact on whether or not I like it.

Story is often an important element in a series (some shows are made or broken by it), but in a number of cases it's just icing on the cake. Sometimes it could even distract. In short, "story" is often held up as a fundamentally necessary component of the bedrock of any series, but I've come to see it quite differently. Story gets no special status with me, it's just one variable on equal footing with many.

Edit: Ok, I realize this post has nothing to do with moe, but...

[Serial Experiments Nobue]

Edit: Ok, I realize this post has nothing to do with moe, but...

Ahh, but something like Strawberry Marshmallow, which does not have an overall story, possesses 4 if not 5 characters that could generally be accepted as appealing to the moe aesthetic. It succeeds because it does not even have to try to be funny, it just is by nature of the character interactions, which is the point of the show.

Thus, your 'no story necessary' post becomes relevant!

:neko:

[something]

Thus, your 'no story necessary' post becomes relevant!
:neko: But it was me! XD And yes, shows where characters just sit around and be cute work for me. Maybe they're not profound treatises on the nature of reality, but you know, shows that are cute for the sake of cute most certainly have a valid place in the realm of anime. And more power to them for it, I say.

Edit: damn you fixed the misquote before i posted heh

[Lego]

A show like Kamichu comes to mind to. What I meant was that I'm not going to watch a show JUST FOR the "cute girls" if you will. Sure I like characters like Urd or characters like Anita King from ROD, but I'm not into the practice of saying "even if this show is crap, I'll watch it just to see so and so".

[touma]

... Sure I like characters like Urd or characters like Anita King from ROD...
Urd is moe for you? Did you perhaps mean Skuld?

[Lego]

Urd has seemingly "moe" moments at times. Times when shes drunk, cheering on her favorite super hero show, and as a kid later on . I guess I see moe as a childlike cutness when. The term is so broad(to me) that it can encompass everything.

[Fencedude]

Urd is moe for you? Did you perhaps mean Skuld?

You see, this is the problem.

"moe" is such an incredibly general, person specific term, that really its almost meaningless.

Its entirely possible that Urd is moe for him.

Its a concept that never really needed its own terminology, (much like tsundere), but now that it has it, we're stuck with it.

[Njr Scrawl]

Urd in the final S1 story arc is cute (& Skuld is better too ;) )

[Isuzu Inugami]

Urd is moe for you? Did you perhaps mean Skuld?

You see, this is the problem.

"moe" is such an incredibly general, person specific term, that really its almost meaningless.

Its entirely possible that Urd is moe for him.

If moe refers to characters who evoke sympathy and protective feelings in the viewer, Urd's self-doubt and even shame over her half-demon nature easily makes her the most moe character of AMG. It's not exactly an intuitive argument though, given the usual types of characters considered moe...

Its a concept that never really needed its own terminology, (much like tsundere), but now that it has it, we're stuck with it.


That's the problem with these terms. Without them, we look at each character individually, but with them we get tempted to lump broad swaths of disparate characters into one category, and then judge them en masse.

[LexiJ]

That's the problem with these terms. Without them, we look at each character individually, but with them we get tempted to lump broad swaths of disparate characters into one category, and then judge them en masse.
I still don't know what any of them mean, or why we use them. What happened to "cute" and "mean bitch?" And why is it so wrong just to use those basic English terms nowadays? Or does using Japanese terms that nobody can really define just make us better anime fans? Besides, the first time I saw the word moe on a message board, it was in connection to fanservice involving 10 year olds and panty shots. So I've always connected it with something boarding on child porn. And then it just started popping up everywhere at random. :tired:

[Suwako Moriya]

That's the problem with these terms. Without them, we look at each character individually, but with them we get tempted to lump broad swaths of disparate characters into one category, and then judge them en masse.

That is certainly a major problem and it sometimes leads to people acting like it's a crime for certain characters to even exist. It does not make a difference what the entire package of the character is like. Just the mere fact the character has that trait is a crime.

Still the real problem is not the terms, but the viewers. We (which I guess includes me) as anime watchers have become lazy. It's far easier for us to slap a general term on a character than it is to actually study the character.

[something]

I still don't know what any of them mean, or why we use them. What happened to "cute" and "mean bitch?" And why is it so wrong just to use those basic English terms nowadays? Or does using Japanese terms that nobody can really define just make us better anime fans?
While the terms are abused horribly, they do express specific concepts if used correctly. The problem is that semantic subtlety is hardly some a strong point for certain people >_> "Mean bitch" in no way serves as a suitable replacement for tsundere. No single English word I'm aware of does, unless there's some cultural neologism I've missed in the course of my life of avoiding pop culture. Tsundere is as much a general series of events (generally aloof and cold with a hard emotional exterior, gradually softening emotionally as events progress, etc.) as a character trait, but in general, thinking of it as the latter works best. If approached like that, we can more easily realize that tsundere by no means needs to be the entirety of a character, much less a show.

Ditto with moe. "Cute" is closer in meaning to moe than "mean bitch" is to tsundere, but it's still only a useful comparison in the sense that most people who find a character moe also find the character to be cute. So, cute has come to be the hallmark of that which evokes feelings of moe. This is not a ridiculous proposition or anything, and it tends to be reasonably accurate. Nonetheless, a character can be, in my eyes, cute but not moe. Himeko from PaniPoni Dash is an example of the top of my head, since the DVD is lying at eye level right now.

I'm not saying conversation couldn't happen without these terms -- it did just fine for decades, because these are NOT new concepts. But I am opposing any suggestion that they inherently have no merit. My assertion is rather that improper use and misdirected criticism are what has rendered them almost useless for general public conversation. Used among people who understand the terms though, sure, go for it.

<Edit>:I'm also not saying that animation companies don't try to evoke such feelings, or give characters such traits. As the terms gained linguistic prominence, anime makers consciously tapped into the (always present, but perhaps now growing and more self aware) market. That includes perhaps tapping into misconceptions about the concepts, if need be. Money money money makes the world go 'round, after all. I don't agree with the extremist positions, however, that everything now is just mindless pandering to the lowest common denominator. That complaint had been launched against the industry by the very people who are the least likely to understand the concepts, or to focus on them exclusively to the detriment of everything else in a show, or to obsess over the activities of the most eccentric and anti-social elements of fandom in Japan and elsewhere, using that to condemn the shows in question, regardless of what the show intends.</Edit>

The whole debate about using Japanese words to express concepts is a complex one, and I'm not inclined to take an absolute stance on it. I'll use Japanese words when I'm just being silly (I'd use "pantsu" as a joke but never in serious conversation -- and for the love of god, I will never utter "dorama!" except facetiously). I'll use them when I think they're useful, like tsundere, but I prefer to do so when I'm talking to someone who understands the shades of semantics. Other times I specifically try to use the English term when there's no reason to do otherwise, such as "voice actor" instead of "seiyuu" (I'll probably catch heat for that but it's the first example that came to mind -- if it helps, I'm not offended if someone uses seiyuu =P).

Since we're on the topic though, I have a quick question about mangaka. Since I do try to use English words when using the Japanese imparts no useful subtleties of its own, I've wondered what the -ka is really supposed to mean. I sometimes just substitute "manga author", but manga authors are frequently the artists as well. Other times those duties are split, or there's a whole team working on something. What, then, is the mangaka? Does the term perhaps have enough of a specific meaning to be worth using in place of English terms? What about American comics makers who perform both roles -- is there a term for them? "Creator" seems too vague.

Note: no "What is anime?" or "What is manga?" debates, please =P We've had enough of them and I'm pretty sure they're frowned upon by the mods anyway.

Besides, the first time I saw the word moe on a message board, it was in connection to fanservice involving 10 year olds and panty shots. So I've always connected it with something boarding on child porn.
It's not your fault that that was your first exposure, but on the other hand you can't blame the concept if you've been unable or unwilling to take a closer look at it. Because I think you know quite well by now (if you pay any attention at all to this board or anywhere else) that it is emphatically not a synonym for "(almost) child porn".

[relentlessflame]

Since we're on the topic though, I have a quick question about mangaka. Since I do try to use English words when using the Japanese imparts no useful subtleties of its own, I've wondered what the -ka is really supposed to mean. I sometimes just substitute "manga author", but manga authors are frequently the artists as well. Other times those duties are split, or there's a whole team working on something. What, then, is the mangaka? Does the term perhaps have enough of a specific meaning to be worth using in place of English terms? What about American comics makers who perform both roles -- is there a term for them? "Creator" seems too vague.
I guess it's off-topic, but mangaka is sort of like "manga expert", I believe. -ka is a suffix that means you're skilled at something. In English, I guess you'd call the equivalent a "cartoonist", since they often both draw and write as well (perhaps that isn't descriptive enough either in the case of graphic novels...). In that sense, since we distinguish between "manga" and "cartoons", it'd probably make sense to keep the term "mangaka", since it also describes the sort of material they create.

[LexiJ]

It's not your fault that that was your first exposure, but on the other hand you can't blame the concept if you've been unable or unwilling to take a closer look at it. Because I think you know quite well by now (if you pay any attention at all to this board or anywhere else) that it is emphatically not a synonym for "(almost) child porn".
See, the problem there is that no one seems to know what the word means, and it's used in a lot of different ways. It has no meaning. If you look in one place, you get one answer. You look someplace else, you get another. The word just suddenly fell into the American anime lexicon out of nowhere, and as you pointed out, is horribly abused. Moe is still used in a lot of cases to describe characters and sexual fanservice. Not always children, I've realized, but quite often very young characters in situations that involve panty shots and the like (hence nosebleed smilies at the end of most posts). So a lot of the time it does still describe something more sexual than cute, because that's the first impression a lot of people have gotten of the word, apparently. Even here, that's the primary way I've seen it used. Cute only entered into it when something fansevicy was attached, hence 10 year olds and panty shots.

[Lego]

I can see what you're saying, but I wouldn't paint everything "moe" or everything with a large swath and label it as "zomg 10 year olds". See, this is the problem with a word that no one really knows about. I remember reading that "moe" actually means bud, or to bud". I've always read it as something or someone cute. So when I see someone like Sasami from Tenchi, I go "hmm, I can see how shes moe". The same can be said for Sakura from CCS.

I don't think that it has to necessarily involve panty shots or fanservice. I've read and seen things about how in Japan, moe is more about "cute girls" then fanservice. I'm sure that there is a element out their that sees and makes it pornographic, but thats the same for any bit in the anime world.

[Fencedude]

The most common etymoligy for "Moe" has it being derived from "Moeru", which means "burning".

As in "Burning Passion"

[touma]

Moe is still used in a lot of cases to describe characters and sexual fanservice. Not always children, I've realized, but quite often very young characters in situations that involve panty shots and the like (hence nosebleed smilies at the end of most posts). So a lot of the time it does still describe something more sexual than cute, because that's the first impression a lot of people have gotten of the word, apparently. Even here, that's the primary way I've seen it used. Cute only entered into it when something fansevicy was attached, hence 10 year olds and panty shots.
I just looked through this whole thread and there is not one noosebleed emoticon here. I do not remember any of them, or any overt sexual references, in the rather extensive moe tournament threads. I do admit that I might be experiencing a case of selective memory.
I have seen threads about moe that drift into lolicon territory. Most moe characters are cute young girls. Loli characters are, by definition, young girls and most of them are cute. Considering that the same character can be seen as moe by some people and loli by others makes the transition from a moe discussion to lolicon rather easy, and sometimes subtle.
But I really do not remember seeing people use "moe" in a sexual context.

[something]

See, the problem there is that no one seems to know what the word means, and it's used in a lot of different ways. It has no meaning.
While I dispute that, nobody who thinks halfway seriously about it has "child porn" as one of those definitions, so your argument is problematic. Yes, it is horribly abused, but that doesn't mean you have to accept the abuse. I know that, at some point, terms in other languages DO take on a life of their own more or less permanently, but I think the use of moe in English is far too young for us to to give up on it already.

As for "cute" and "fanservice", they don't have to be connected. No doubt some people do connect them, but I see a continuum of cute < > fanservice, and people fall on different ends. People on the left don't associate them, people on the right don't either, because cute is never sexy to them, it's people in the middle that are the ones you talk about, taking them as one and the same.

Granted, there's nothing stopping a sexy character from being a moe character for someone. That in itself is not inherently wrong at all. After all, cute is just the most common expression of moe, not the only, given that it's something the viewer experiences and is thus highly subjective.

So, I still maintain my position that even if you don't totally understand the concept, which is fine (as we've said it can be hard to define), there would be no excuse for continuing to buy into the "moe is kiddie pron" misconception.

[something]

But I really do not remember seeing people use "moe" in a sexual context.
Good point actually. When I argue about this, I tend to lay out "a number of people use moe in a sexual context" sort of as a preexisting condition, mostly because I believe that others won't even want to discuss it with me unless I "acknowledge" that beforehand. We have to do that often (accepting arguments we don't think are fully accurate, simply so debate can happen), but sometimes it's good to go back and say "You know, maybe in my eagerness to get the debate going, I'm unjustly giving up too much ground to begin with!"

That's sort of the case here. I won't fully say that "nobody uses moe in a sexual context" because it's not true. There are absolutely people who equate the two 1-to-1. But I really don't believe that it's the pandemic that others assume it is, and that I sometimes will 'admit" it is even if I don't necessarily believe it. Because you're right, around here for example, it's really not used as explicitly sexual all THAT much. Saying a character is moe and cute doesn't mean you're having naughty dreams about them. And hell it's all just fake animated characters to begin with, so there's only so much we can moralize about it without getting silly. And then factor in that a character can be both moe and sexy but not necessarily one because of the other (a distinction many people are unable to parse out, I think), and I think most of the claims about the horrible moral degeneracy of fans who talk about moe is... well, actually not all that defensible, after all.

Thanks for saying such a seemingly obvious thing, because I've really been giving up too much ground all this time, before the fight even begins.

[Njr Scrawl]

There are obvious "moe" shows IMO. Hello Kitty, Taruto, Bottle Fairies, Sugar, Binchotan(?) as examples. They are designed & written for the general kawai effect.

Then there are shows like Automatic Maiden, Ai Yori Aoshi, CCS whose lead/banner characters give the whole show an overall "moe" feel through their presence (& would whatever other show they would be in), look & personality even if some others in the cast don't.

Sad/pathos shows like Figure 17, Sailor Moon, & most Akemi Takeda, Clamp & Keiji Goto character-designed shows have a "puppy" moe feel.

[Dagger]

There are obvious "moe" shows IMO. Hello Kitty, Taruto, Bottle Fairies, Sugar, Binchotan(?) as examples. They are designed & written for the general kawai effect.
Hello Kitty? I dunno. Yeah, moe is different for everyone, but I also think there's a clear distinction between moe and just plain kawaii.

Then there are shows like Automatic Maiden, Ai Yori Aoshi, CCS whose lead/banner characters give the whole show an overall "moe" feel through their presence (& would whatever other show they would be in), look & personality even if some others in the cast don't.
That's such a stretch, though. The only example I might have conceded to you in this regard is something like Moon Phase, since Hazuki's moe factor really is just that powerful. But reducing Moon Phase to a moe anime--as if such a thing really exists--is unfair to the series as a whole, I think. Besides, not everyone will consider Hazuki moe. Some just might find her to be bratty and annoying. You just can't talk about something as if it's a whole genre or category for series when it's based wholly on subjective impressions.

[Fencedude]

Yeah Njr, you seem to be under the impression that Moe is a synonym for "cute".

Its not.

[perigee]

Yeah Njr, you seem to be under the impression that Moe is a synonym for "cute".

Its not.

Words like "defenseless" and "endearing" come closer for me. Something like this (http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c41/perigee/ugly_baby.jpg) might be called "moe", but not necessarily "cute".

[Isuzu Inugami]

That's sort of the case here. I won't fully say that "nobody uses moe in a sexual context" because it's not true.

But shouldn't it be true? I mean, I would suggest those people don't know what moe is (and not in the "there's a difference between kawaii and moe" sense, but in the "You have boarded the train to Calcutta; what do you mean you are going to Edinburgh?" sense.

At heart, moe is a response a character brings out in a reader/viewer. If that response is erotic in nature, I'd argue it isn't moe by definition. (Definition being the hazy element of moe, I'll stick out my nose and say moe is a response of protectiveness and sympathy toward a character. Or in shorthand, that which makes you go "Awwww..." Feel free to tell me I'm Calcutta bound if you think I don't get it either.)

And then factor in that a character can be both moe and sexy but not necessarily one because of the other

That's the thing... characters can elicit multiple responses. Moe does not (or need not, anyway) define the entirety of a character. A character can be erotic and inspire dislike. Or laughter. Or moe (see my Urd-as-moe argument somewhere in this thread.) It's one adjective, among many.

[something]

But shouldn't it be true? I mean, I would suggest those people don't know what moe is (and not in the "there's a difference between kawaii and moe" sense, but in the "You have boarded the train to Calcutta; what do you mean you are going to Edinburgh?" sense.
Oh I definitely agree with you, but I'm just saying that, yes, some people use it without knowing what it is. It's an unfortunate fact. But for the most part, the people abusing the term the most are the ones who are trying their best to denigrate both it, shows that are associated with it, and fans who enjoy it.

Feel free to tell me I'm Calcutta bound if you think I don't get it either.)
No, I definitely think we're on the same train here. Same car even. Hell, I think I'm sitting in your lap, sorry about that :sd:

That's the thing... characters can elicit multiple responses. Moe does not (or need not, anyway) define the entirety of a character. A character can be erotic and inspire dislike. Or laughter. Or moe (see my Urd-as-moe argument somewhere in this thread.) It's one adjective, among many.
Yess, very true. People who have an axe to grind with 'moe' tend not to want to admit that. Surprise! Characters don't need to be one dimensional! It's a revelation for some people :sd:

[Isuzu Inugami]

No, I definitely think we're on the same train here. Same car even. Hell, I think I'm sitting in your lap, sorry about that :sd:


Uhh... it's okay, I guess, but all that Haruhi spooge is kinda grossing me out...


...not that I don't have my own bucketful....

[Shiroi Hane]

I remember once having an argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Moe_%28slang%29#Sexuality.3F) with someone over whether moe was sexual.

[braifordly]

I don't know about sexual... My friend says that it is now a common term that is used in Japan. Girls can use it for clothes. And he even said that some people use it for babies. I'm pretty sure they're not petifiles... if so that's sick.

[Skywise]

I remember once having an argument (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Moe_%28slang%29#Sexuality.3F) with someone over whether moe was sexual.

I fixed the miscategorization a while back so that pretty much solves your argument ;). Mind you at this point I'm prepared to call the entire wikipedia article a loss as it's in great need of being rewritten from scratch. To put it simply moe is:

1. Parental like love for a fictional character. This is the original and true moe.
2. Vocalization of the word to express (1). Ex. "moeee" accompanied with sigh.
3. A bastardization of (1) where it's morphed to mean anything that's aimed at eliciting a (1) response in the target audience. Ex. "moe-shows" "moe-industry".

As a result of (3) some people mistakenly have come to believe that moe just means cute and thus use that as a substitute for kawaii/fanservice, since they've never actually experienced it. While it may be a losing battle, I think we should avoid using moe in the (3) sense so as to avoid corrupting the meaning even further.

[Skywise]

Clothes no. Babies yes, as they're pretty much the original primordial prototype for what moe is.