Ahiru or Duck, which is correct?

[ayareiko]

This seems to be an old argument, but which is correct: Duck or Ahiru?

I am the one who edited the Wikipedia entry shifting all references to Ahiru to Duck. However, they've since reverted back. I plan to revert it back to Duck, but first I'd perfer to discuss the issue here.

So which is correct?

I personally believe the use of Ahiru is incorrect. Her name was made from the Japanese word so the Japanese would make the connection quickly as it was relevant to the story and several jokes. If her name was the English word, most Japanese readers would have never made the connection. The same can be said for the use of the English word in terms of the English speaking audience. Plus Ahiru is not a Japanese name.

I also believe the use of Ahiru is an otakuism, the insistence of using incorrect spelling despite the best official sources saying otherwise. Another example of an otakuism would be the incorrect spelling of Chi's name as 'Chii'.

[Fencedude]

Both. Either. Doesn't fucking matter.

[Sensuifu]

Another example of an otakuism would be the incorrect spelling of Chi's name as 'Chii'.

please don't tell me you'll be editing any wiki for one letter.

[Yuriko]

Personally I prefer Ahiru because in the original language that's what is used, so Duck sort of comes out of left field on fansites etc. It's wrong to outright say Ahiru is incorrect unless you're talking purely US market.

However I think both are right depending on the situation (specifically talking about the R1 version's English translation and using Ahiru is just being pretentious) and it's not worth worrying about.

I think the Chii thing came about from people not knowing how to render the Japanese spelling properly in English. Doesn't particularly bug me either, most accurate way is always just to write it in kana.

~Y

[Yuriko]

Forgot something - Wikipedia's English site is an English [language] site, not a NA site. So bearing in mind too that there could easily be different localisations of the series all over the world (English being a widely spoken language across many continents), it fits best to me with the concept of a worldwide information network to use spellings and references everyone can use, rather than references specific to a certain version only.

Just my personal rule of thumb. If someone in east Asia is watching this show and speaks more English than Japanese they might be confused by US references.

~Y

[Thanatos]

I'd just like to say I love the two main characters of Street Fighter named "Dragon" and "Fist." :roll:

[something]

Oh no...


::takes a breath:: ...Neither is "correct". It's a matter of translation philosophy. People can argue until they're blue in the face and drop dead, but that won't change.

[Fencedude]

I'd just like to say I love the two main characters of Street Fighter named "Dragon" and "Fist." :roll:

I just want to point out that the situations are not the same.

Oh, and Wikipedia: SERIOUS BUSINESS

[Andrew Cunningham]

I'm not sure if I should be proud that I have no idea what show you're talking about.

[saeba_ryo]

Another example of an otakuism would be the incorrect spelling of Chi's name as 'Chii'.

please don't tell me you'll be editing any wiki for one letter.
Don't know what the debate is but the correct spelling is Chii. (http://www.tbs.co.jp/chobits/old/chara/c_chi.html) Its clearly written in Japanese (hiragana) and English.

[SpaceButler]

Ahiru is right, because Duck is a stupid name.

[Fencedude]

Ahiru is right, because Duck is a stupid name.

And how exactly is "ahiru" any less stupid?

[ThomasBellman]

Don't know what the debate is but the correct spelling is Chii. (http://www.tbs.co.jp/chobits/old/chara/c_chi.html) Its clearly written in Japanese (hiragana) and English.

Except that the hiragana spelling clearly says "ちぃ", not "ちい". That small ぃ is not an indicator of a long i sound. And you should seldom trust the Japanese for their ability to perform good transliterations into other languages...


(And for the original question, in my opinion a good English translation of Princess Tutu *should* use the name "Duck". I wouldn't consider the use of "Ahiru" to be right out wrong, though, but definitely not as good as "Duck".)

[populuxe]

This poll really should have had an option for "both", since both are right. Her name is Ahiru in Japanese, but Duck is the correct translation of "ahiru." By the way, how are you handling "Mr. Cat"? I find it illuminating that the controversy is over Ahiru/Duck, but not Neko-sensei/Mr. Cat, even though it's exactly the same situation.

[populuxe]

I'm not sure if I should be proud that I have no idea what show you're talking about.
Be thankful that you've missed all the controversy, since it's all rather silly, but if you haven't seen Princess Tutu, then you're missing out on one of the most beautiful stories to come out in a long time. Exceptionally well-written, beautifully animated, and stunningly well-acted, which ever language you prefer.

[Suwako Moriya]

I find it illuminating that the controversy is over Ahiru/Duck, but not Neko-sensei/Mr. Cat, even though it's exactly the same situation.

It's possible because Ahiru is the lead character in the series. Thus people are more concerned with what to call Duck. Either way I still remember the whole argument before and it was really sad reading it sometimes. :sd:

[Pfil]

I find it illuminating that the controversy is over Ahiru/Duck, but not Neko-sensei/Mr. Cat, even though it's exactly the same situation.

It's possible because Ahiru is the lead character in the series. Thus people are more concerned with what to call Duck. Either way I still remember the whole argument before and it was really sad reading it sometimes. :sd:
The fun thing is that even when we're discussing this show 10 years from now, someone is still going to bring up the name issue. :sigh:

It's really sad how something like this can take away focus from such a great show. Then again, all publicity is good publicity... (?)

[Gersen]

It's a first name, it's silly to translate it.

Unless you consider that Kiddy Grade lead girls are called Lightning and Light.

Gersen

[CrazyAsano]

It's a first name, it's silly to translate it.

Unless you consider that Kiddy Grade lead girls are called Lightning and Light.

Gersen
Except it's not a first name, it's the name of an animal.

[tuffy]

I expect that re-hatching this argument will put a lot of people back into a fowl mood.

[Gersen]

Except it's not a first name, it's the name of an animal.

I don't see why it would be less a first name than the other thousands weird or uncommon first names used in countless anime. Eclair and Lumière are not first name either if you want to go that way.

Gersen

[Suwako Moriya]

I expect that re-hatching this argument will put a lot of people back into a fowl mood.

Which is why there is only one solution. From now on she will be known as the terror that flaps in the night and sorry I can't go any further than that.

[saeba_ryo]

Don't know what the debate is but the correct spelling is Chii. (http://www.tbs.co.jp/chobits/old/chara/c_chi.html) Its clearly written in Japanese (hiragana) and English.

Except that the hiragana spelling clearly says "ちぃ", not "ちい". That small ぃ is not an indicator of a long i sound. And you should seldom trust the Japanese for their ability to perform good transliterations into other languages...


(And for the original question, in my opinion a good English translation of Princess Tutu *should* use the name "Duck". I wouldn't consider the use of "Ahiru" to be right out wrong, though, but definitely not as good as "Duck".)
CLAMP uses Chii so Chii is the correct spelling since CLAMP would know a little more about Chobits then any of us.

As for the Ahiru-Duck debate, my rule of thumb for a good translation is that first and surnames are romanized and never given a literal translation. Thus Ahiru should stay as Ahiru since that is her name. Just as Usagi will always be Usagi to me and not Bunny or Rabbit.

[Kellory]

Except it's not a first name, it's the name of an animal.

I don't see why it would be less a first name than the other thousands weird or uncommon first names used in countless anime. Eclair and Lumière are not first name either if you want to go that way.

Because in pretty much every other Anime, a first name is just that. It is a name. However, in Princess Tutu, Ahiru isnt just a name but a pun. You would not, for example, generally translate a name. They should usually stay the same. Which is why someone named say Aoi would not be called Blue in general. However, Ahiru is a special case. Because in this particular case she isnt calling herself Ahiru because it is her name. She is calling herself Ahiru because she is a duck. It is less of a name for her than a descriptor. Which is why, in this case, Duck is a better translation.

In the show she isnt calling herself Ahiru because that is her name. She is calling herself Ahiru because that is what she is. She knows she is not human. Humans have names, animals have descriptors. That is the difference. Under normal circumstances I would be against the name translation. But in this case, because of the meaning behind the naming convention itself, this is the better way. It is why, when translating, an exact translation is not always better. Sometimes you have to understand what you are translating, otherwise the real meaning behind it is lost.

[Gersen]

In the show she isnt calling herself Ahiru because that is her name. She is calling herself Ahiru because that is what she is. She knows she is not human.

Well...No, you should rewatch the show ;). At the begining of the show she don't know that she is a duck, none of her friends or teachers know she is a duck and she don't look like a duck.

If peoples call her Ahiru that's because it's her name, very few people actually know she is a duck, even at the end of the show.

Following your reasoning then Nana in Elfen Lied should have been called "Seven" because Nana is not her name it's her number.

Gersen

[Kellory]

Following your reasoning then Nana in Elfen Lied should have been called "Seven" because Nana is not her name it's her number.

No, it's not the same thing. But at this point if you dont understand it, then there really is no point in arguing it. I have my opinions and views and you obviously have yours. And considering how the previous R1 thread went, nothing will be resolved here either. We're just going to have to accept that we both think we're right and leave it at that.

[Gersen]

No, it's not the same thing.

I fail to see why ? Nana is not her name it's what she is, she is number seven, like there is another one who is number 3 and Mariko is number 35. Why is it any different ?

Gersen

[Bibulb]

I expect that re-hatching this argument will put a lot of people back into a fowl mood.

And if I get that way, I'll put that on your bill.

[Mr. Nail Bat]

I expect that re-hatching this argument will put a lot of people back into a fowl mood.

And if I get that way, I'll put that on your bill.



Stop it, you're quacking me up! You people are mallard-justed.

[Isuzu Inugami]

Stop it, you're quacking me up! You people are mallard-justed.

I don't think I can match that eggcellent level of punnery. Waddle I do?

[saeba_ryo]

Stop it, you're quacking me up! You people are mallard-justed.

I don't think I can match that eggcellent level of punnery. Waddle I do?
This is getting out of hand. You people are dessssssssspicable!!!!!

[Bibulb]

Stop it, you're quacking me up! You people are mallard-justed.

I don't think I can match that eggcellent level of punnery. Waddle I do?

Somewhere, Mike Callahan's hands are itching for a seltzer bottle.

And the Doc is decrying the levels of quackery in this thread.

[Fencedude]

Well...No, you should rewatch the show ;). At the begining of the show she don't know that she is a duck, none of her friends or teachers know she is a duck and she don't look like a duck.

So? What about Mr. Cat and Anteaterina? And while at the beginnign she's forgotten that she's a duck, that doesn't change the fact that her name is only Ahiru/Duck BECAUSE she's a duck.

If peoples call her Ahiru that's because it's her name, very few people actually know she is a duck, even at the end of the show.

And again, you can't use that reasoning in this show because there are lots of things that other characters SHOULD notice that they don't

Following your reasoning then Nana in Elfen Lied should have been called "Seven" because Nana is not her name it's her number.

Different situation, the show makes a special effort to distinguishing between when she's being called "Nana" as a name, and "Number 7" as her number. The English dub reflected this difference by using both, depending on the situation.

[Lovely]

I tend to get... touchy about this issue (with rants involving inapropirate words over on my livejournal- a place where rants are not only appropriate but expected ^_~ !)


So, simply put, I'll just say, "Duck Season~" . Which is a phrase that I still have in my sig.

Of course, I should note that I used to read a TON of fairy tales over the course of my life and so characters that are named after what they are seems totally natural and expected for me. (In Tutu's particular sort of situation.)


Anyways, this argument makes me sad with some people >_> .

[Pyocola]

I've always wondered how those tiny i's are supposed to be used. If it says ち then it's clearly Chi with one i, and if it says ちい then it's Chii with two, but what the heck is ちぃ supposed to be? One and a half i's?

[The Great Bear]

Stop it, you're quacking me up! You people are mallard-justed.

I don't think I can match that eggcellent level of punnery. Waddle I do?

Somewhere, Mike Callahan's hands are itching for a seltzer bottle.

And the Doc is decrying the levels of quackery in this thread.

This thread derailment is just the right response to some degree.

…

I'm in the Duck camp. It's very simple. If you do not retain the pun when translating the "name" into English, then you will lose a whole level of understanding that the Japanese audience had.

Look, "Ahiru" is not a normal name. And it's not so much "her" name as it is a literal description of what she is. People call her "duck" because she is a "duck." It's basically a "purist" over-reaction to insist that she be called Ahiru in English. I'm not the first to say this in this thread, but maybe it'll just take constant repetition before this sad little argument will go away.

It's :horse:

[something]

This thread derailment is just the right response to some degree.
Nothing like mod-sanctioned flagrant thread derailment to soothe the wounds of the absolute worst R1 anime-related debate this side Chrno/Chrono. I approve... and would work in some duck puns if I were wittier.

[The Great Bear]

This thread derailment is just the right response to some degree.
Nothing like mod-sanctioned flagrant thread derailment to soothe the wounds of the absolute worst R1 anime-related debate this side Chrno/Chrono. I approve... and would work in some duck puns if I were wittier.


Yeah, I ran out of duck-related puns as well. Still, we can contribute to derailment in our own way.

I don't mean any offense at the original poster. It's a valid question, except that this whole thing just ends in the same old way every time. Thus, I pulled out the horse. I'm surprised it didn't get more use in this thread.

[Shiroi Hane]

I've always wondered how those tiny i's are supposed to be used. If it says ち then it's clearly Chi with one i, and if it says ちい then it's Chii with two, but what the heck is ちぃ supposed to be? One and a half i's?

(note: no japanese support on this machine)
They're normally used like modifiers, e.g. there is no single kana for "ti/di" so it can be represented as "te/de" plus a half-height "i" (see the kana for Kiddy Grade)

[something]

(note: no japanese support on this machine)
They're normally used like modifiers, e.g. there is no single kana for "ti/di" so it can be represented as "te/de" plus a half-height "i" (see the kana for Kiddy Grade)
Yeah, which makes it all the weirder for how it's used here. You don't need the small 'i' to modify 'chi' to end with an 'i' sound. But it's there anyways...

[Suwako Moriya]

Of course, I should note that I used to read a TON of fairy tales over the course of my life and so characters that are named after what they are seems totally natural and expected for me. (In Tutu's particular sort of situation.)

Hence that was likely a huge part of the reason they called her "Ahiru" in the Japanese version and thus "Duck" in the English version. In order to have that element from some Fairy Tales. One name that definitely comes to mind is Snow White. I mean seriously that name alone should tell people something about Fairy Tales. A girl running around and calling herself "Snow White" would be like me introducing myself as "Bright Fame".

[Atomsk]

Hence that was likely a huge part of the reason they called her "Ahiru" in the Japanese version and thus "Duck" in the English version. In order to have that element from some Fairy Tales. One name that definitely comes to mind is Snow White. I mean seriously that name alone should tell people something about Fairy Tales. A girl running around and calling herself "Snow White" would be like me introducing myself as "Bright Fame".

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schneewittchen :>

[Suwako Moriya]

Okay you're just being evil. Still it does make me wonder about some other series. I can see the possible future now...

R1 Company: We preformed a miracle more impressive than turning lead into gold or bringing back the dead. We've licensed Redriding Hood Chacha.

Random Fan: They translated Akazukin? I've been waiting years for the series, but they had to do that. I no longer have a reason to live!

[Njr Scrawl]

Both. Either. Doesn't ducking matter.


Righted for you :>

Ahiru can be duck (as a common noun), or Duck (as a personal name for the fowl). Depends on context, & how she is being spoken to or of.

[EmperorBrandon]

I would have preferred her name remain as "Ahiru" myself. I have no problem with ADV's translation choice, though. It's not too big of a deal for me.

[Suwako Moriya]

Oh, and Wikipedia: SERIOUS BUSINESS

Speaking of which the basis for this thread shows a major potential problem with the idea. Which is what I shall call the "EDIT WARS" unless you can think of a better name. This was various fans decide to get into an edit battle to have the information the way they want it. You know what would be a simple idea? Have the entry along the lines of this.

Ahiru (Duck): Ahiru aka Duck is the main character of Princess Tutu. <Insert simple explanation of the two names here>...

Then after that you follow it with whatever other info. It would be the best compromise if you ask me and is the way it should probably be done. It's important to know she's called Duck, but one should deny the fact she's originally called Ahiru. Both names can exist together. Or maybe that's my delusional side that believes in being reasonable.

[ayareiko]

Oh, and Wikipedia: SERIOUS BUSINESS

Speaking of which the basis for this thread shows a major potential problem with the idea. Which is what I shall call the "EDIT WARS" unless you can think of a better name. This was various fans decide to get into an edit battle to have the information the way they want it. You know what would be a simple idea? Have the entry along the lines of this.

Ahiru (Duck): Ahiru aka Duck is the main character of Princess Tutu. <Insert simple explanation of the two names here>...

Then after that you follow it with whatever other info. It would be the best compromise if you ask me and is the way it should probably be done. It's important to know she's called Duck, but one should deny the fact she's originally called Ahiru. Both names can exist together. Or maybe that's my delusional side that believes in being reasonable.

The problem with that is which spelling is used throughout the article. One side will want one name, the other would want the other.

[something]

The problem with that is which spelling is used throughout the article. One side will want one name, the other would want the other.
"The main character" =P

[The Pirate Queen]

I.. am abstaning from this poll.

[Buster Darkwings]

(note: no japanese support on this machine)
They're normally used like modifiers, e.g. there is no single kana for "ti/di" so it can be represented as "te/de" plus a half-height "i" (see the kana for Kiddy Grade)
Yeah, which makes it all the weirder for how it's used here. You don't need the small 'i' to modify 'chi' to end with an 'i' sound. But it's there anyways...


It's just a different way of writing something to make it stand out, like writing a word all in katakana when it normally would be written in hiragana or kanji. The pronounciation is exactly the same as ちい so to represent this the proper romanization would indeed be Chii. But I personally don't mind and often prefer it when vowel lengthening is ignored in name romanizations, since it's been done that way for Japanese names since like the Meiji period so it often looks weird to me when there's an extra vowel tacked on. The average Westerner will usually mangle the pronunciation whether or not a lengthened vowel is shown, anyways.

Edit: But for a case like Chii, I kind of prefer the lengthened vowel being shown. Maybe because it's a made up name and not a Japanese name, maybe because "chi" is a borrowed word from Chinise and doesn't really match Chii's personality.

[hikaru004]

Both. Either. Doesn't ducking matter.


Righted per above.

Eggsactly. :D

It'a a moot point since it's released as "Duck". Ahiru sounds cuter though imo.