Valkyrie v Nanoha - shows & the women

[Njr Scrawl]

So which is the better for shows, & which has the better heroine, Ultramaiden Valkyrie or Lyrical Nanoha?

[something]

So which is the better for shows, & which has the better heroine, Ultramaiden Valkyrie or Lyrical Nanoha?
I never saw more than half an episode of Valkyrie, but I'm fairly confident that these shows have absolutely nothing of consequence in common aside from transformation sequences, so I don't really know that comparing them *means* anything at all. It's like of like asking someone to compare applesauce and figure skating.

Edit: That said, Nanoha is one of the best shows I've ever seen, so just watch it anyway, regardless of what you do with Valkyrie.
Edit2: And since I guess you haven't seen either show, isn't this more of a Recommendations thread?

[ayareiko]

Nanoha.

Like there's any question.

[Fencedude]

So which is the better for shows, & which has the better heroine, Ultramaiden Valkyrie or Lyrical Nanoha?

Well...its really comparing apples and oranges.

UFO Princess Valkyrie is, first and foremost, a comedy. It has some drama (particularly in the second season) but it always takes a backseat to the comedy, and there is a distinct tendency to reset things to zero. This is most noticable at the end of season 1. And Valkyrie herself isn't all that much of a heroine. The vast majority of the things she ends up saving people from are the direct result of her own actions in her child form.

On the other hand, Nanoha is primarily an action/drama, with a bit of comedy (though really not very much). It is, as far as I can tell, the first time a "Shonen" Magical Girl show has taken itself completely seriously, and bears far more resemblance to My~HiME and My~ZHiME than it does to Valkyrie. Nanoha is also a far more interesting character than Valkyrie could ever hope to be, and she herself is far less interesting than most of the rest of the cast of her own show. Most notably Fate and Hayate.

Its also worth noting that Valkyrie REVELS in transformation sequences, its not unheard of to see the same one 4 times in a single episode of that series, while Nanoha's full transformation is seen all of 6 times across 26 episodes, and 4 of those were in the first season.

[Suwako Moriya]

In terms of both the characters and the series I vastly prefer Nanoha. Now to be fair there is the whole apples and oranges bit which should be taken into account. On the other hand fresh milk is better than rotten meat. Just as fresh meat is better than spoiled milk. Okay maybe I need a better example that doesn't paint it as good vs bad. Since in some cases both are good or average or even bad.

Ufo Ultramaiden was kind of fun to watch and did have its moments from what I saw/remember of it. Although I never really cared that much about it to be honest. Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha did take a few episodes to get things truly going, but when it did it became one of the more interesting series I've seen.

Valkyrie herself is cute and all in child form, but honestly beyond that she never really interested me that much. In truth I was more interested in characters like Akina and Hydra. Those two really should have their own separate series. Okay that may be a bad idea, but still....

Nanoha may pale in comparison to several others in her cast, but I still have a strong liking for her. Maybe it's the way she fights her battles or some of her interaction with other character in the series. Still the point is at least compared to Valkyrie, Nanoha has something going for her.

[Fencedude]

Valkyrie is moe.

Nanoha is GARMOE (http://www.fencedude.com/Images/GARMOE.jpg)

[Suwako Moriya]

GARMOE? Okay that's yet another new term I need to learn. Although the image is probably a good clue as to what it means. Cool Moe? Powerful Moe? Bad Ass Moe?

[Fencedude]

GARMOE? Okay that's yet another new term I need to learn. Although the image is probably a good clue as to what it means. Cool Moe? Powerful Moe? Bad Ass Moe?

Badass moe.

The image in question is probably the single best way of showing that Nanoha is not your average magical girl.

see also: STARLIGHT BREAKER (http://www.fencedude.com/Images4/Starlight_Breaker.jpg)

[Nork22]

On the other hand fresh milk is better than rotten meat. Just as fresh meat is better than spoiled milk.
Actually, rotten meat (well the one that doesn't have maggots crawling in it or it looking green) taste the best. :D
And spoiled milk can be turned into yogurt (in theory anyway). :P

Back on topic though, just to echo everyone else, you can't really compare the 2. Watch Nanoha and see why it's so.

[Spirit Of The Stage]

On the other hand fresh milk is better than rotten meat. Just as fresh meat is better than spoiled milk.
Actually, rotten meat (well the one that doesn't have maggots crawling in it or it looking green) taste the best. :D
And spoiled milk can be turned into yogurt (in theory anyway). :P

Back on topic though, just to echo everyone else, you can't really compare the 2. Watch Nanoha and see why it's so.

Indeed. Despite the attempts of my Australian friend I really couldn't get into Valkyrie, which lasted two episodes before it was shelved and marked 'return to sender' whilst Nanoha is one of the sweetest, emotional dramas with some of the greatest characters (Nanoha and Fate in partic) and involving magical girl staves with booming technology and pretty explosions. :)

[Fencedude]

So...Njr? I know you are around...no further comments or questions?

[Fencedude]

Indeed. Despite the attempts of my Australian friend I really couldn't get into Valkyrie, which lasted two episodes before it was shelved and marked 'return to sender'


Personally, I like Valkyrie a lot. Sure, its unoriginal, repetetive, blatantly pandering and more than just a bit stupid...but dammit I like it anyway!

Somehow KAISHAKU based work generally tend to have just the right blend of fanservice, passable plot and sheer absurdity to click with me.

But Nanoha is, of course, about a billion times better

[Suwako Moriya]

Ah okay well Bad Ass Moe is definitely one way to describe Nanoha. Ah I see you brought out the Star Light Breaker image. It's like a traditional classic now. One that must continue on occasion.

[Njr Scrawl]

So...Njr? I know you are around...no further comments or questions?


Back now :P Would comparing Shana with Nanoha be more relevant, going on your "Garmoe" classification? Which do you prefer?

Seems like Nanoha is following Haruhi for popularity here....

[Dagger]

Back now :P Would comparing Shana with Nanoha be more relevant, going on your "Garmoe" classification? Which do you prefer?

Seems like Nanoha is following Haruhi for popularity here....

Nanoha is pretty unique actually, in that it has all the trappings of a traditional shoujo magical girl show but is at the same time decidedly not shoujo. There are plenty of other shounen mahou shoujo anime out there but my sense is that they tend to either play toward comedy/fanservice or, if not that, to try to be heartfelt in the same way as regular mahou shoujo series.

Nanoha has that heartfelt quality, but it's also an incredibly badass show, as Fence suggested. ("GAR" is usually used to refer to male characters who are so awesome, manly and hardcore that even straight male fans can't help but adore them.) I wouldn't even compare it to the Mai-series, even though they're somewhat closer, since it sticks to the usual mahou shoujo stuff of nifty costumes and staffs and familiars and so forth (unlike Mai) while at the same time bringing in a whole new level of awesomeness and brutality. This is not immediately apparent (from the very beginning, you wouldn't be able to tell Nanoha apart from the non-H Magical Canan or any other magical girl show aimed at a male audience) but becomes an increasingly powerful aspect of the show as it progresses.

Also, while Nanoha is a well-liked show, it generally catches way more flack than Haruhi. I think its popularity level would be more comparable to that of... say, Rozen Maiden or the Mai-series.

[something]

Also, while Nanoha is a well-liked show, it generally catches way more flack than Haruhi. I think its popularity level would be more comparable to that of... say, Rozen Maiden or the Mai-series.
Flack mostly from people who refuse to watch it (that gos for a lot of shows though), but yes, Rozen Maiden and My-HiME are probably a better as popularity comparisons for Nanoha than Haruhi. I'm talking internet popularity here though, their actual mass market R1 appeal could vary widely (with HiME probably being the most marketable of the four).

Nanoha is indeed garmoe. I still consider her the single most bad ass character I have even had the pleasure to come to know. While other mahou shoujos can come across as tough at times, Nanoha is just on a whole different level. And I get the feeling she's only going to become more awesome as April rolls around...

[something]

Somehow KAISHAKU based work generally tend to have just the right blend of fanservice, passable plot and sheer absurdity to click with me.
Heh even Kagihime? I couldn't get into that, even with a lesbian in the cast.

[Suwako Moriya]

Heh even Kagihime? I couldn't get into that, even with a lesbian in the cast.

*Admits to having watched the whole series* In some ways it's creepy, but for some reason I found it to be kind of interesting to watch. I also like how it ends. Also the final episode is kind of fun. I think the creepiest parts come near the end. I think one of the evilest parts near the end was when (This means higher level spoilers)The author who partially involved in constructing the whole Eternal Alice thing gets betrayed by Alice and the other two loli twins who state "Even if the author dies th story still lives on".

[Fencedude]

Somehow KAISHAKU based work generally tend to have just the right blend of fanservice, passable plot and sheer absurdity to click with me.
Heh even Kagihime? I couldn't get into that, even with a lesbian in the cast.


No, Kagihime legitimately sucked. If it had been done by the team that made Kannaduki and Kyoshiro, that might have been different though.

Speaking of Kyoshiro to Towa no Sora, it has got to be the BEST terrible show I've ever watched.

[Fencedude]

Nanoha is pretty unique actually, in that it has all the trappings of a traditional shoujo magical girl show but is at the same time decidedly not shoujo. There are plenty of other shounen mahou shoujo anime out there but my sense is that they tend to either play toward comedy/fanservice or, if not that, to try to be heartfelt in the same way as regular mahou shoujo series.

Exactly. As I said in my previous post, its the only "Shonen" Magical Girl show I can think of that takes itself completely seriously. I has the same origin as many of the others (spin off of a more traditional shonen show, like Komugi-chan or Pretty Sammy were) but its not parodying its original and the formulas of its genre, its creating something genuinely NEW. Its often been compared to a mecha series where they forgot the mecha. There's just nothing else thats really like it at all.

Though it is, somewhat parodying the genre. Nanoha starts out with a long, involved incantation to summon Raging Heart and her Barrier Jacket, but in the second episode she's forgotten it, and she ends up going "fuck this" and just summons them anyway. Much to the consternation of her obligatory cute animal familiar.

Nanoha has that heartfelt quality, but it's also an incredibly badass show, as Fence suggested. ("GAR" is usually used to refer to male characters who are so awesome, manly and hardcore that even straight male fans can't help but adore them.) I wouldn't even compare it to the Mai-series, even though they're somewhat closer, since it sticks to the usual mahou shoujo stuff of nifty costumes and staffs and familiars and so forth (unlike Mai) while at the same time bringing in a whole new level of awesomeness and brutality. This is not immediately apparent (from the very beginning, you wouldn't be able to tell Nanoha apart from the non-H Magical Canan or any other magical girl show aimed at a male audience) but becomes an increasingly powerful aspect of the show as it progresses.

Indeed. Nanoha is one of the few protagonists in almost any show who is willing to do WHAT IT TAKES to resolve an issue, with no really wishy washiness or angsting. Yes, in season one she was rather upset about the fact that she couldn't get through to Fate, but instead of getting all emo about it, she understood that things wouldn't get resolved until one of them had a conclusive victory over the other.

Sometimes Friendship is best conveyed by large, pink deathbeams.

Also, while Nanoha is a well-liked show, it generally catches way more flack than Haruhi. I think its popularity level would be more comparable to that of... say, Rozen Maiden or the Mai-series.

Its interesting really, 4chan's /a/, which HATES Haruhi (long story) absolutely LOVES Nanoha. Its probably one of the most popular shows on the board.

At any rate, I think the producers of Nanoha have tapped into a truely new area of fandom. There's nothing fundamentally original about Nanoha, but nohting else has ever put the pieces together in the same way.

[something]

Though it is, somewhat parodying the genre. Nanoha starts out with a long, involved incantation to summon Raging Heart and her Barrier Jacket, but in the second episode she's forgotten it, and she ends up going "fuck this" and just summons them anyway. Much to the consternation of her obligatory cute animal familiar.
Heh, yes, and it's one of the best and most telling scenes in the show. Nanoha is a fighter, not a ballet dancer, so she has little need for the long, involved choreography of your typical mahou shoujo transformation routine. You see her summon her barrier jacket instantaneously, sans any fanfare, far more often than you see her go through even a partial transformation. If I'm not mistaken, we only EVER see any significant amount of Fate's transformation once, and that's in the second season, and for a special reason.

Indeed. Nanoha is one of the few protagonists in almost any show who is willing to do WHAT IT TAKES to resolve an issue, with no really wishy washiness or angsting. Yes, in season one she was rather upset about the fact that she couldn't get through to Fate, but instead of getting all emo about it, she understood that things wouldn't get resolved until one of them had a conclusive victory over the other.
And that approach resulted in one of my favorite exchanges of the show, or any show, at the end of episode 10 (I talked about it in my Favorite Nanoha Fights thread). I know some people don't see what's so great about Nanoha herself as a character, but I absolutely cannot stress enough just how unbelievably refreshing it was to see a character with Nanoha's mindset. And for her to be a magical girl just made it all the better. Her determination and personality are so admirable that I can't put into words how much they contributed to my positive view of the series. She's comes across as being every bit as driven as Gutts or similar characters, but she does it in a show and a setting where you would never expect it.

Just thinking about her and her show totally brightens my day and gives me such an upbeat feeling.

At any rate, I think the producers of Nanoha have tapped into a truely new area of fandom. There's nothing fundamentally original about Nanoha, but nohting else has ever put the pieces together in the same way.
And that's the kind of show I like. I couldn't care less if a show is truly "original", I just care that it arranges its pieces in an enjoyable way. And Nanoha delivers.

[Ty]

I'm not even sure I'd call Nanoha moe in any aspect, really just badass by itself describes things better.

[something]

I'm not even sure I'd call Nanoha moe in any aspect, really just badass by itself describes things better.
I find Nanoha (and Fate) enormously moe, so I'll have to disagree with you there =P Sure, she wouldn't actually have any need for the attention/protection/love/"however the heck you define your personal moe" I'd give her, but that still doesn't mean I don't want to. Nanoha kicks infinite ass, but she's still an adorable little girl at the same time.

[Kellory]

I'm not even sure I'd call Nanoha moe in any aspect, really just badass by itself describes things better.
I find Nanoha (and Fate) enormously moe, so I'll have to disagree with you there =P Sure, she wouldn't actually have any need for the attention/protection/love/"however the heck you define your personal moe" I'd give her, but that still doesn't mean I don't want to. Nanoha kicks infinite ass, but she's still an adorable little girl at the same time.

Adorable yes. But adorable isnt the same as moe is it? I mean, Nanoha just doesnt really seem to have any real vulnerabilities. She is just awesome. Now Fate. Fate I can see people having moe tendancies about. But yeah, I never had the inclination to hug Nanoha or pat her on the head or anything else. About the only thing that pops into my head when I see Nanoha on screen is an overwhelming desire to see if she'd be willing to guard my back the next time I'm in a fight. Or better yet, fight my fight for me...

Still, its all personal I suppose. Nanoha is moe to you if you feel that way. I just dont really see it myself.

[The Great Bear]

Personally, I like Valkyrie a lot. Sure, its unoriginal, repetetive, blatantly pandering and more than just a bit stupid...but dammit I like it anyway!

Somehow KAISHAKU based work generally tend to have just the right blend of fanservice, passable plot and sheer absurdity to click with me.

But Nanoha is, of course, about a billion times better


I've never seen any of the Nanoha series, so I can't really comment on it.

But I have seen Valkyrie, and I've enjoyed watching it. Sure, the transformation sequences can get a bit dull (but, hey, that's what fast forward is for :) ), and it's not original in any way, but it's an entertaining enough way to spend a couple of hours every now and then.

Sometimes, the brain just needs to be feed candy, and Valkyrie does that well enough for me.

[Fencedude]

Njr, what was your objective with this topic anyway?

Nanoha topics are always appreciated, but I'm still not clear on exactly what you are going for here.

[something]

Adorable yes. But adorable isnt the same as moe is it?
Not inherently, no, but I never said it was.

I mean, Nanoha just doesnt really seem to have any real vulnerabilities. She is just awesome.
And I thought I said this :sd: She wouldn't need it, but I don't care really.

Now Fate. Fate I can see people having moe tendancies about.
Yes I mentioned her too, she's definitely moe as well.

[Njr Scrawl]

Njr, what was your objective with this topic anyway?

Nanoha topics are always appreciated, but I'm still not clear on exactly what you are going for here.


Modern magical girls, both meant to be meaner, tougher & less loving/lovable than traditional shoujo ones. (Although Uranus, Neptune, Pluto & the Starlights could maybe considered "modern", although they are really grown women & may fit better into "warrior" classificaton)

I don't regard the My-Hime girls as magical girls in the traditional sense. More like Utena, users/operators in a magical type enviroment.

[Fencedude]

Modern magical girls, both meant to be meaner, tougher & less loving/lovable than traditional shoujo ones. (Although Uranus, Neptune, Pluto & the Starlights could maybe considered "modern", although they are really grown women & may fit better into "warrior" classificaton)

Ehh...I wouldn't classify Valkyrie as that, she's not really that "mean" or "tough". Especially not compared to Nanoha.


I don't regard the My-Hime girls as magical girls in the traditional sense. More like Utena, users/operators in a magical type enviroment.


To be perfectly honest, by the end of the first season Nanoha isn't really a magical girl show anymore either. And now in StrikerS they have completely tossed any semblance of being a magical girl show out the window. Nanoha, Fate and Hayate are now officers in a military organization, and command a force called "Mobile Section-6" that is divided up into combat squads.

And the "magic" in Nanoha is very much "technology". The only really mystical part is the Linker Core, everything else is treated as hardware and software programs.

[Funkatron]

Valkyrie is moe.

Nanoha is GARMOE (http://www.fencedude.com/Images/GARMOE.jpg)

Thank you for introducing me to the term Garmoe. I sorta introduced it to another board, who claimed that Gar should be used in this case since its normally reserved for men. Any comments?

[HitokiriShadow]

Valkyrie is moe.

Nanoha is GARMOE (http://www.fencedude.com/Images/GARMOE.jpg)

Thank you for introducing me to the term Garmoe. I sorta introduced it to another board, who claimed that Gar should be used in this case since its normally reserved for men. Any comments?

Well, Nanoha won her first round in the SaiGar tournament (http://saigar.darkmirage.com/), in which there were only four or five non-males* (one of which was The Cabbage from Crescent Love, a joke entry) out of the 100+ characters in the tournament. She lost her second round to Guts (from Berserk) but she still got 205 votes (against Guts' 357 and The Cabbage's 60). Take that as you will...

*After checking, the 'non-males' are: Nanoha Takamachi, The Cabbage, Aizen's Couch (Bleach; WTF?), Bardiche (MSL Nanoha), The Horse (Gundoh Mushashi), "Mr. Delicious" (Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni), Revy (Black Lagoon)...

So out of 124 characters, only 7 were NOT males... 9 if you don't count Gargoyle (he's a machine) or Shinji Ikari :D as males. And its possible I missed a few other non-males (and I skipped a bunch of wussy males that were joke entries). Granted, most of those others were joke entries, but I'm not sure Nanoha and Revy were joke entries.

[something]

Thank you for introducing me to the term Garmoe. I sorta introduced it to another board, who claimed that Gar should be used in this case since its normally reserved for men. Any comments?
Depends how literal and serious you want to be about what started as a silly meme (based off a typo, far as I know... "gar for archer" when they meant "gay for archer"). technically, gar should be male, but eh, that never stopped anyone from expanding the term a bit, or playing around with it for laughs.

[perigee]

How about YARMOE? Yar [quick, agile, lively] is a term applied to a ship, and ships are often referred to as "she". :)

[Fencedude]

Thank you for introducing me to the term Garmoe. I sorta introduced it to another board, who claimed that Gar should be used in this case since its normally reserved for men. Any comments?
Depends how literal and serious you want to be about what started as a silly meme (based off a typo, far as I know... "gar for archer" when they meant "gay for archer"). technically, gar should be male, but eh, that never stopped anyone from expanding the term a bit, or playing around with it for laughs.


Yeah, I advise you all to not try to overthink the term. Its just a 4chan meme that has gotten WAAAAAY out of hand.

[Kellory]

Yeah, I advise you all to not try to overthink the term. Its just a 4chan meme that has gotten WAAAAAY out of hand.


Totally agree here.

While definitions are important, once it gets to a certain point (and personally I think we already passed it with terms like Moe) the definitions themselves become pointless. It starts to become a "Secret Club Language" with all the silliness and childness that it implies. Things should be clearcut and easy to understand. Once you have to start explaining a definition to long time fans, I'd say there is a problem.