New PC

[WRX]

I finally managed to build the new PC I've been threatening for a past 6 months. Here's the details:

- Machine name : "Suzu"
- Case : Thermaltake VA8003BWS
- PS : PC Power & Cooling Silencer 610
- CPU : Intel C2D E6600
- CPU Heatsink : ZALMAN CNPS9500 AT
- Memmory : Patriot 2 x 2 x 1Gig @ 4-4-4-12 (4 Gigs total)
- Motherboard : Abit AW9D-MAX
- Harddrive : Samsung 500Gig
- Videocard : EVGA 8800GTX
- Soundcard : Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer
- OS : Windows Vista Home Premium 64 Bit

- Keyboard, Mouse, Monitor and Plextor DVD burner drive recycled from old machine.

Impressions so far:

Case : Very big, very heavy, lots of fans. Even has a monster 25cm fan built into the side of the case. Amazingly it's VERY quite even with all the fans. Less than half the noise of my old PC.

Vista install : Probably the easiest Windoze install I've done yet. The only problems were that it refused to work with my old DVD drive but it was happy enough with the Plextor DVD burner. The system itself doesn't seem to like my old IDE harddrives either which made transfering data from old PC to new a bit of a chore. I ended up using my 30Gig MP3 player as a go-between via USB.

Vista itself : Very pretty, very Mac-like in appearance. With the 4 gigs of RAM memmory usage hovers right around 20-25% when it's not chewing on something. The "Gadgets" are neat and the ability to make things opaque is nice too. Haven't seen anything about it yet that would have tempted me to try to upgrade from WinXP on an older machine though.

Gaming : So far I've only loaded up F.E.A.R. and S.T.A.L.K.E.R. Both look A.W.E.S.O.M.E. with all the details cranked up.

I'll add more observations as I find them.

[Sensuifu]

Nice rig :cool: I've been holding off getting a new setup for quite a while now.. just got an HD projector. Then again, I'll just have to save enough by the time the R600 refresh is released or when the Penryn and Agena are available. Hopefully it'll be good enough for DN4 (rumored to ship with the R600 :D ) which would be awesome but not surprising if it didn't.

[DustoMan]

Go treat yourself to a copy of Supreme Commander. It's on sale this week at Best Buy. It's a game that really shines with that hardware.

I hope to be either building or buying a similar system in the next couple months.

EDIT Question: Why did you go with the 64-bit version of Vista?

[WRX]

Go treat yourself to a copy of Supreme Commander. It's on sale this week at Best Buy. It's a game that really shines with that hardware.
Actually I think I got a copy of it as a "freebie" with the CPU. :sweat200: I'll have to give it a try tonight.


EDIT Question: Why did you go with the 64-bit version of Vista?
Mainly because if you go 64bit you can use more than 3.5Gigs of RAM. Also because what I read suggested that the 64Bit version of Vista was slightly more stable. Lastly it seems kinda silly to run a 32bit OS on a 64bit CPU and any worthy games currently in development will most likely support both 32 and 64bit versions of Vista.

[DustoMan]

I guess I missed that you have 4GB of RAM in your machine. What the hell are you doing with that machine??!? LOL! That's a bit overkill if all you're gonna do is play games!

Just in case you didn't know, any game with the "Games for Windows" branding is supposed to work on 64-bit versions of Vista.

[lostnomad84]

Dude, awesome, awesome machine. You should have almost no problems running almost anything on that box.

[ADC]

I guess I missed that you have 4GB of RAM in your machine. What the hell are you doing with that machine??!? LOL! That's a bit overkill if all you're gonna do is play games!
I think the question is, what won't he do with that machine?

[battra92]

- OS : Windows Vista Home Premium 64 Bit


Well you're apparently a gamer so I'll cut you some slack. I personally would have Linux on there before Windows (and then use XP)

[WRX]

What the hell are you doing with that machine??!? LOL!
Lots of things. All at once. Very fast and in high resolution. :neko:

[Ty]

Congrats. You must have that case with the hunge honkin' wind turbine intake fan on it (I believe honkin' is the technical term). It definitely makes a statement. :) 20% memory usage doesn't sound right to me though, but perhaps it's because the install is new. Vista will track your usage and learn which programs you regularly start when you begin using your computer. Then it uses any available free memory to pre-fetch them in the future when the machine first starts so these programs can launch almost instantly. People have reported almost 100% memory usage with 2 GB systems and are alarmed until they learn what Vista is doing. It can dump the pre-fetch data instantly so it doesn't cause system slowdown in the event the RAM is needed for something else.

You didn't have any trouble obtaining 64-bit drivers? I can't move to Vista because my board and soundcard don't even have 32-bit drivers available yet.

[Lego]

Nice. While this comp I'm on right now is fine for what I do, I've always wanted a "gaming rig" if you know what I mean. Although when I go for a computer I tend to go for something that can last me a few years as I don't have the 1-3 grand to spend on a PC every six months.

[Kellory]

Very nice. In fact, almost a carbon copy of my new machine (at least in terms of the major guts) that's undergoing a stress test and burn in right now. I did go with the Zalman 9700 though. Good choice on the PS. After doing some research I've become convinced that a lot of the problems people have had with their componets are the result of using those modular dual, triple, and quad rail powersupplies that do not offer anywhere near enough juice on a each rail. Plus PC and Cooling powersupplies are just amazing with how steady their voltages stay.

I am using Dominator RAM, although in retrospect I probably should have gone with something cheaper. I'm not intending to really overclock, so it's not all that useful. Still, I also went with 4 gigs. You can never have enough RAM even under XP.

Speaking of XP, how is Vista treating you? Or rather how are the drivers? I didnt check to see if NVidia had finally released any stable drivers for the 8800's. The NVidia drivers are the main reason I went with XP for now. Game compatibility and stability is my major thing since it is a gaming machine.

Oh, and get one of those Logitech G11 keyboards. I just got mine in today and it rocks. It's Mac style quiet and has lots of Macro keys for gaming. I also got their gaming mouse and it is pretty sweet too. Being able to adjust the DPI resolution of the mouse is nice. There's also 2 keys that can be used to go forward or back on your web browser making it easier to navigate.

And yeah, good call on the case. It really looks sweet. I'm considering buying another to transfer my secondary computer into it.

By the way, how hard was it to get your powersupply into yours? I had to remove the top mounted headers in order to fit my Silencer 610. Still debating whether or not to put it back in since my EVGA board has a ton of USB connectors already.

But to anyone putting together a new computer, I do recommend that Armor. It's spendy, but the fans are quiet (I had gotten some Scythes with the Sony liquid bearing system just in case but I didnt need them) and there is lots of room to work with. The only thing being if you use a longer Powersupply like the PC Power and Cooling one it might make installation of that difficult. But damn, fans everywhere, and lots and lots of room for those 8800 cards.

Cant wait till tomorrow after the burn in is done to see what it can do. :)

[Sensuifu]

Nice. While this comp I'm on right now is fine for what I do, I've always wanted a "gaming rig" if you know what I mean. Although when I go for a computer I tend to go for something that can last me a few years as I don't have the 1-3 grand to spend on a PC every six months.

It's nice to have a separate gaming PC separate from everything else, but you don't necessarily need to spend that much to get adequate performance for most games out there. Typical for FPS and more demanding MMORPGs, but everything else, you can get by with a 1.5-2k setup that should last 2-3 years.

[Kellory]

It's nice to have a separate gaming PC separate from everything else, but you don't necessarily need to spend that much to get adequate performance for most games out there. Typical for FPS and more demanding MMORPGs, but everything else, you can get by with a 1.5-2k setup that should last 2-3 years.

I agree. 2k easily gets you a nice setup.

Intel Core2Duo 2.4ght - $230
680i Motherboard - $250
NVidia 8800GTS card with 640 RAM - $400
Decent Computer Case - $150
2gigs of decent RAM - $150
1 80gig HD - $40
1 320gig HD - $80
1 SATA DVD drive - $40
1 good Powersupply - $150
1 Copy of WinXP/Vista - $100
1 Logitech G11 Keyboard - $60
1 Logitech Gaming Mouse - 450
1 20" Widescreen LCD Monitor - $200

That should being you up to about $1900. Add in shipping and that should get you around 2kish.

That will get you a system that should be good for 2-3 years easily. With minimal upgrades. At some point you might want to drop another 150 or so for another 2gigs of RAM, especially once Vista becomes stable. And maybe drop another 400 on another 8800 graphics card for SLI if your games support it.

Do you need that all?

No. You can recycle your old case in all liklihood as well as your keyboard and mouse. Even your drives can probably be recycled, although I would suggest SATA II drives for speed when gaming. But you dont need a Quad Core processor or some Extreme Gaming version. Nor do you need High Performance or Gaming RAM with SLI/EPP in it. Or a 10k raptor hard drive. You can even save a few bucks on your processor and get a 2.1 core2duo for under $200. It's just for the speed and money, the 2.4 is the best bang for the buck right now. But a 2.1 will run any game flat out.

Most of the expensive gaming rigs out there are designed for 1 thing. Penis scores. It really isnt going to matter much to any game if your 3dbenchmark is a few hundred points lower than your opponents. Or if you are getting 90FPS instead of 102. You want to avoid super cheap bargin components so that you can add on instead of replace in the future, but you dont need the really expensive stuff either.

a 2k rig like this will give you enough power to play *any* game out right now at pretty much full graphics. The only game I can think of offhand right now that *might* give a setup like this (which is almost exactly like mine and I believe WRX's) is Vanguard. And that has more to do with the fact that their memory usage is still a bit inefficent and the graphics were designed for the next gen of cards beyond the 8800's.

You could downgrade your video card to a 7 series card and a 1.8ghz processor and still run pretty much any current game flat out. The 2.1-2.4 processor and 8800 series card simply gives you more longevity and bang for the buck.

[Lego]

I'll probably save up for one down the line, but right now I don't game enough to justify a new computer.

[josephowens]

[quote=Kellory]

I agree. 2k easily gets you a nice setup.

Intel Core2Duo 2.4ght - $230
680i Motherboard - $250
NVidia 8800GTS card with 640 RAM - $400
Decent Computer Case - $150
2gigs of decent RAM - $150
1 80gig HD - $40
1 320gig HD - $80
1 SATA DVD drive - $40
1 good Powersupply - $150
1 Copy of WinXP/Vista - $100
1 Logitech G11 Keyboard - $60
1 Logitech Gaming Mouse - 450
1 20" Widescreen LCD Monitor - $200

That should being you up to about $1900. Add in shipping and that should get you around 2kish./quote]

What kind of over priced powersupply and case are you buying for 150 dollars each?

As for memory, I fully support going to 4 GB of ram for any ver of Vista. I started using Vista Ult 32bit back in Feb and only had 2GB of ram, went to 4GB and it is running much better.

[josephowens]

Vista install : Probably the easiest Windoze install I've done yet. The only problems were that it refused to work with my old DVD drive but it was happy enough with the Plextor DVD burner. The system itself doesn't seem to like my old IDE harddrives either which made transfering data from old PC to new a bit of a chore. I ended up using my 30Gig MP3 player as a go-between via USB.


I'm guessing you looked for firmware updates on the old Dvd drive that wasn't working in Vista?

[WRX]

The case and power supply are both very nice. It was a battle to get the Silencer 610 into the case but it did fit eventually. I had to remove two fans, take both side panels off the case and go without the little retaining bar the case came with but the S610 is installed and securely screwed to the back of case. If it were a normal sized powersupply I should have been able to remove a small panel on the back of the case and just slide power supply in but the S610 was just a little too big to fit. Still, I like the results so I can't complain.

I agree, the "multiple rail" designs of some powersupplies seemed like a bad idea to me, especially with power hungry beasties like the 8800GTX. All you have to do is over draw on one of the rails and your system could start having all sorts of weird issues depending on what rail is feeding.

Vista 64 has been good so far too. The motherboard, videocard and soundcard all had Vista 64bit drivers available on their websites and all of them seem to be solid so far. I just noticed that NVidia released new drivers yesterday so I'll probably give those a try tonight. I haven't tried much apart from IE, WinAmp and a few recent games but, apart from the IDE drive issues I mentioned before, everything has worked without a hiccup.

It pains me to say it but it looks like Micro$oft might have done a decent job with Vista. :surprised: At least when you're talking about entirely new hardware to run it on....

[WRX]

I'm guessing you looked for firmware updates on the old Dvd drive that wasn't working in Vista?
Nah. I had two opitical drives on my old machine... a plain DVD drive and a Plextor DVD burner. I tried the plain DVD drive and it didn't work but the Plextor did. I'll probably just leave the plain DVD drive in the old PC (I may end up giving the old PC to my Dad) rather than messing with it anymore.

[Gersen]

I finally managed to build the new PC I've been threatening for a past 6 months. Here's the details:

Very Similar to my own "in construction" PC (Still waiting for the RAM to arrive) :

Case : Antec P182B
PSU : Corsair 680HX
CPU : Intel C2D E6700 (Plan to overclock it to ~3.5Ghz)
- CPU Heatsink : ZALMAN CNPS9700 NT
- Memory : Corsair TWIN2X Dominator PC2-9136C5 - 2 GB
- Motherboard : Asus Commando
- Harddrive : Raptor 150Gb + Deskstar 320Gb
- Videocard : BFG TECH OC2
- Soundcard : Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeGamer
- Mouse : Logitech G5 2nd edition
- OS : Windows Vista Ultimate 32Bit + Windows XP Pro 32 Bit.

I know about your 4Gb of memory but for a gaming computer you should have an 32bit XP installed somewhere as most actual/older games run a lot faster/better on it.

By curiosity did you overclock it ?

Gersen

[Kellory]

What kind of over priced powersupply and case are you buying for 150 dollars each?

The case was, admitedly, overpriced. I could have gotten similar performance from a $100-$120 dollar case. However, I liked the design of the Armor series, as well as the fact that it is quiet. Add to that (and this was a fairly large factor) it is several inches longer than a standard full case box. This makes installation of things like a 8800GTX/GTS card easier and keeps more room between the card and the hard drive cage.

More space = better airflow. I dont watercool my system, so airflow is important. Plus, with a Zalman, the way the Armor's fans are setup it creates an almost perfect tunnel effect funneling air from the front of the case, directly on back out. The 250mm fan on the side helps keep the GPU cool. Any additional heat simply disapates upwards. The top fan is nothing to write home about due to the fact it is semi obstructed by the case design, but it does it's job.

As for the powersource, well, no. I paid $150 for probably the bottom end of what is the top of the line powersupply company. PC Power and Cooling manufactures pretty much the best home use computer power supplies. They are a little longer than most (which is why WRX and I had problems putting it in) but that allows for a lot more efficent cooling which is why it only has a single fan. The Powersupply is probably the coolest component on my computer.

PC Power and Cooling also supplies very stable powersupplies. The voltages pretty much are completely stable from zero output through to maximum. Most Powersupplies tolerances are much less tight. Not dangerously so of course, but any fluxuation can lead to to either long term damage to your other components, or odd performance issues.

You also get power loss issues. Multi rail systems are typically less efficent due to their basic design. My 610 has close to a 85% efficency rating. Even at max load. Something no other powersupply I can think of can match. It will pay for itself over the course of a year just on saved power. And even then, it will probably still do so since most powersupplies efficency does drop under high load whereas a PC Power and Cooling one does not.

Finally, all PC Power and Cooling powersupplies are single rail. Almost all other power supplies these days are dual, triple, or quad rail designs. Due to spec's these rails typically cannot exceed 20amps. This is a serious issue because the 8800 series video cards (whether GTX or GTS) require a minimum of about 24amps and that goes upwards of 30 for the GTX's.

In my experience almost everytime I've seen friends with video issues, it can almost always be traced back to the powersupply if they are running an 8800. Even some of the 7 series have fairly high power draws too.

Now there are fixes for this. Which is why most 8800 cards come with a single PCI-E connector with 2 4pin molex connectors. They are designed to go into 2 seperate and different rails to draw the power needed. Now this works, but for my money I prefer to have the card draw the power it needs directly without going through seperate rails. Also, since the rails are seperate, I'd want my other compoennts drawing off another rail, so right away I'm limited in options with a triple or quad rail system.

In the end it comes down to this. I paid about $50-100 dollars more for my powersupply than many other people. However, I have a very stable powersupply that will power my entire system reliably and stably under normal, full, and max load. It is also very efficent so will end up paying for itself in terms of saved electricity over the year or so.

You get what you pay for. Sometimes it is okay to skimp. Cases are a good example if you find a good one. Or even RAM. No need to buy Xtreme Gamer RAM or somesuch since in general the results are minimal for the investment. Even if you know what you are doing. Even my motherboard is a bit overpriced, but I wanted the option to overclock if I wanted to, as well as EVGA customer service and how expandable it was. I was building a system to last 3-5 years before total replacement, not something I'd have to replace in a year or two.

I was never a fan of expensive power supplies. Looking at spec's and buying from a quality manufacturer was always good enough for me. Until I started to take a good look at some of the issues friend's of mine had and did a lot of research. I really should have gone with the 750w version, but the 610 will power the system and was something of a compromise since the 750 was $50 more. Not much, but I was already pushing my budget. I'll probably get the 750 in the next 6 months or so and put the 610 into the secondary system.

As for memory, I fully support going to 4 GB of ram for any ver of Vista. I started using Vista Ult 32bit back in Feb and only had 2GB of ram, went to 4GB and it is running much better.

Totally agree here. You need 4gigs at least to run Vista. Well, you dont, but it helps. A lot of the problems I think people have with Vista is they see the 100% memory usage and say "ZOMG! Vista is a memory hog!" without realizing what Vista is doing with that memory. Or that it is just a cache that is quickly dropped when more memory intensive applications come online.

Personally the games I play (mostly Vanguard and EQ) are not generally that compatible with Vista currently. Mostly due to third party driver support. So I'm not currently running Vista. But I do intend to upgrade to Vista within the next year once driver support becomes more prevalant. Vista is to XP what XP was to 98. Quite a significant upgrade and the security is much much better. Just need to get over some growing pains and it will be quite a good OS.

[Kellory]

The case and power supply are both very nice. It was a battle to get the Silencer 610 into the case but it did fit eventually. I had to remove two fans, take both side panels off the case and go without the little retaining bar the case came with but the S610 is installed and securely screwed to the back of case. If it were a normal sized powersupply I should have been able to remove a small panel on the back of the case and just slide power supply in but the S610 was just a little too big to fit. Still, I like the results so I can't complain.

Hmm, I didnt take off the rear fan, although I did remove the hard drive cage. Still have it off since it isnt necessary for me right now. And I too had to skip the stabalizer bar, but it doesnt look like the powersupply is going anywhere as it seems to be pretty solidly secured as is. So I'm not going to worry about it. The Armor is too large to move around to LAN parties anyway. :)

I too removed the back panel, but that was more to that I could route some of my cables back behind the motherboard to keep things a bit cleaner inside the case. While it doesnt have a removeable MB tray, I found you can still route many cables through the rear of it and come back in through the holes next to the drive cages.

So how is that 500gig drive treating you? Personally I prefer to use a small drive for my C and system partition to speed things up, but I was looking at those 500's for everything else. But I've always been leery of very large drives since in the past they've been rather slower than 2 smaller ones for the size. I've heard though, that the new 400-500gig drives are as fast and have great seek times and optimizations so that they are as good, if not better, than many of the current drives out there. I've heard rumors that some of them should be able to outperform those nifty 10k drives.

[josephowens]

[quote=Kellory
So how is that 500gig drive treating you? Personally I prefer to use a small drive for my C and system partition to speed things up, but I was looking at those 500's for everything else. But I've always been leery of very large drives since in the past they've been rather slower than 2 smaller ones for the size. I've heard though, that the new 400-500gig drives are as fast and have great seek times and optimizations so that they are as good, if not better, than many of the current drives out there. I've heard rumors that some of them should be able to outperform those nifty 10k drives.
[/quote]

I have a 500GB SATA Maxtor and 2 250GB SATA WD drives in my pc. All 3 seem to work well, however I only use the 500GB for file storage.

[DustoMan]

As for memory, I fully support going to 4 GB of ram for any ver of Vista. I started using Vista Ult 32bit back in Feb and only had 2GB of ram, went to 4GB and it is running much better.

Totally agree here. You need 4gigs at least to run Vista. Well, you dont, but it helps. A lot of the problems I think people have with Vista is they see the 100% memory usage and say "ZOMG! Vista is a memory hog!" without realizing what Vista is doing with that memory. Or that it is just a cache that is quickly dropped when more memory intensive applications come online.


What?!? No way! I have a laptop with 2GB and it runs just fine. I never have more then 60% memory usage.

[Kellory]

As for memory, I fully support going to 4 GB of ram for any ver of Vista. I started using Vista Ult 32bit back in Feb and only had 2GB of ram, went to 4GB and it is running much better.

Totally agree here. You need 4gigs at least to run Vista. Well, you dont, but it helps. A lot of the problems I think people have with Vista is they see the 100% memory usage and say "ZOMG! Vista is a memory hog!" without realizing what Vista is doing with that memory. Or that it is just a cache that is quickly dropped when more memory intensive applications come online.


What?!? No way! I have a laptop with 2GB and it runs just fine. I never have more then 60% memory usage.

Depends on what programs and apps you run. Also your running a laptop so it might be a bit different working environment from a desktop.

But Vista generally tracks what programs and applications you use frequently and automatically loads them up when it starts. This means that it can and will try to use all available memory, provided you have that many programs or applications that you use on a regular basis. If you dont have many memory intensive programs that you use a lot, then it wont take up as much space. Photoshop, for example, does not take a lot of RAM to startup, although it can use quite a bit once you start rendering or opening files. So as long as it is in the background and not doign anything it might not use much in the way of system resources.

Of course, this is how Vista works on a desktop. Laptops tend to have all sorts of power management functions which limits resources to just that which are currently being used. So its quite possible that Vista is not being used to it's total extent. Which is not bad either. I find I dont need instant startup of frequently used programs really. It taking 5-10 seconds to boot gives me time to grab a drink or something. But, I'm not an MS programmer so what do I know.

[WRX]

I know about your 4Gb of memory but for a gaming computer you should have an 32bit XP installed somewhere as most actual/older games run a lot faster/better on it.

Unfortunately I don't have a copy of XP... I went straight from Win2K to Vista. Still, so far every game I've tried has been plenty fast in Vista (F.E.A.R., Far Cry, Half-life 2, S.T.A.L.K.E.R., Call of Duty 2). Stability hasn't been a real problem either. As for future games I think they'll be more carefully tuned to work with Vista anyway.


By curiosity did you overclock it ?

I haven't yet but I may eventually. That's part of the reason I went with a nicer CPU cooler and such a fan-laden case. Then again there isn't much of a need to since it has already run every game I've thrown at it at 1280x1024 with full bells'n'whistles.

[Clover-chan]

I agree. 2k easily gets you a nice setup.

Intel Core2Duo 2.4ght - $230
680i Motherboard - $250
NVidia 8800GTS card with 640 RAM - $400
Decent Computer Case - $150
2gigs of decent RAM - $150
1 80gig HD - $40
1 320gig HD - $80
1 SATA DVD drive - $40
1 good Powersupply - $150
1 Copy of WinXP/Vista - $100
1 Logitech G11 Keyboard - $60
1 Logitech Gaming Mouse - 450
1 20" Widescreen LCD Monitor - $200

That should being you up to about $1900. Add in shipping and that should get you around 2kish.

What kind of over priced powersupply and case are you buying for 150 dollars each?

As for memory, I fully support going to 4 GB of ram for any ver of Vista. I started using Vista Ult 32bit back in Feb and only had 2GB of ram, went to 4GB and it is running much better.

I agree with this sentiment! Where the hell are you shopping?

I tend to create computer systems very inexpensively, but they run better than the more expensive systems tend to (*cough* especially premade crap like Dell or eMachines, etc.).

I've created some nice machines in the past, one strictly for gaming use, one for DVD-building capabilities, and one for my own personal use. :) None of them was more than $1,000 for the computer itself (no monitor, keyboard, or mouse included in the price), and only the gaming machine died (due to sheer stupidity on the owner's part).

Anyhoo, my point here was to boast about Newegg.com. :) I bought my husband's awesome transformer case from them, for about $45, and the prices for everything else is very fair when you consider their shipping and customer service (which is excellent).

[Kellory]

I agree with this sentiment! Where the hell are you shopping?

From NewEgg of course. Does anyone shop anywhere else? :)

Well, one of my tech friends shops from TigerDirect, but he's an AMD fan so I figure he's halfway insane anyway. ;)

I tend to create computer systems very inexpensively, but they run better than the more expensive systems tend to (*cough* especially premade crap like Dell or eMachines, etc.).

As long as you have a decent understanding of computers, how they work, and can install a copy of WinXP/Vista then you are always going to be able to build a better computer for the money (at the mid to top end) than a manufacturer. Now, a low end system is going to be better through a company like Dell because you get a complete system for 500-600 dollars. But for anything mid range or higher, it's going to be more expensive. And come loaded with bloatware that'll take forever to remove.

I've created some nice machines in the past, one strictly for gaming use, one for DVD-building capabilities, and one for my own personal use. :) None of them was more than $1,000 for the computer itself

The computer I priced out above (made a mistake with the mouse, it should be $50, not 450) would run well under 2k for just the computer. I believe around 1600. And it would be within a few percent of my 2k computer, which also includes a second 20 inch monitor. So even my 2k computer build was only around 1800. It sounds expensive even so, but I will not need to think of upgrading any part of it (other than perhaps XP to Vista) for at least 1.5-2 years. And that is playing top end games both out now and coming out. I can guarantee a 1k computer, if you want to game at the top end with full graphics) will be obsolete and in need of at least a graphics card upgrade within the next 12 months. A pair of 7 series GeForce cards will not ever be able to compare to even a low end 8 series card. And the games are coming that will stress even a mid to high end 8 series card. But that's at least a year or two down the line. Even ATI doesnt have anything right now that'll come close to the 8 series card. Perhaps in a few months, but we'll have to see about that.

Anyhoo, my point here was to boast about Newegg.com. :) I bought my husband's awesome transformer case from them, for about $45, and the prices for everything else is very fair when you consider their shipping and customer service (which is excellent).

Yes, NewEgg is the best. They are the TRSI of the computing world. I just wish they'd have better FedEx options instead of UPS.

In any event, the purpose of building a 2k computer was performance, longevity, and stability. There was no sense in going for a sub 100 dollar case with inadequate ventilation or cooling for a top end computer. Sure, a 50 dollar case will work well for a 1k computer, but a 2k rig is going to need more or you will probably run into problems later.

How much you spend on a computer will depend on what you do, how you use it, and how long you want it to remain current before needing upgrades.

A 1k computer is more computer than most people need. Even most gamers. Most gamers are not playing the very top end games at max graphics. Most are playing games like Quake or Half Life or F.E.A.R or Halo. These games do not need top end systems, even to look their best. Perhaps to get 100FPS you need a 2k computer in these games, but to get 40FPS (which is more than you need for smooth play) a 1k machine, well built, will do the trick.

However, no 1k computer will play Vanguard at anywhere close to mid level settings. Just wont happen. That game was designed for cards that are not even on the drawing boards yet since it is meant to last for a decade or more with good graphics. But also, games are coming out soon that will need DirectX 10 which currently only the Nvidia Geforce 8 series cards can run. The 7 series cannot, and are vastly inferior in comparison anyway. Although a 7 series card is plenty for today's games.

I'm not advocating that everyone who calls themselves a gamer should go off and buy/build a 2k computer. But you do get what you pay for. A 1k computer will play today's games at top settings, and tomorrow's at mid level or so. But you will be stressing the system. My 2k rig is going to be good for 2-3 years before I need to really think of upgrading anything.

Usually it'd be sooner, but the Core2Duo chips are just amazing in terms of what they can do (and there are some other new Intel goodies that are even better, but the current crop does the job well). But the thing most gamers upgrade regularly is the graphics card. And an 8 series card will last you for several years because there is nothing out, nor anything really coming out, that will really take it to it's limits. It is not just a new card, it is step beyond. That is one reason ATI does not have a competitor for it yet, although I believe one is coming. I'm not sold on the performance of it yet, it is ATI after all. And ATI does not generally perform as well in gaming, although they are usually superior in terms of video output. The MX series of Nvidia cards notwithstanding which were crap.

However, the 8 series cards are all that and a bucket of chips. Most non 8 series cards have between 20-24 pixelpipelines. This is actually pretty good, especially when run in SLI or Crossfire for those games that support them. However, an 8 series card has between 96 and 124 of them. Thats bandwidth that no other card can match. Add to that between 640 and 720 megs of ram and you've got a card that screams. Even the lower end 320 megs of ram 8800 series will rock any game out or coming out.

Lets take a quick example.

My friend across the complex has a 1k (well, 1.2k computer but we included a new monitor for him) with a 1.8 core2duo with 2gigs of ram and a 7 series graphics card. It can run 3 instances of Everquest, 1 at mid level settings, and 2 at minimal settings which pretty much maxes out the machine, and he does lag on occasion as well as experiencing the occasional lockup.

My 2k computer will run 3 instances of Everquest at max graphics for all 3 instances with zero lag and 100% stability (ran 3 in 2 different 8 hour 40+ person raids over the weekend to stress test it), and it never went beyond about 50-60% utilization. And that was with Firefox running. It did come fairly close to maxing out with bittorent up, but that is a CPU hog to begin with. And it never went beyond 42 degrees centigrade on the CPU or 65 degrees on the GPU. That is performance.

When getting anything, I prefer to go with the maximum bang for the buck. Not necessarily top top end, but the best item for the lowest cost with good reliability. I do not just look at something that is top end, it must be reliable as well. Nor is price the only consideration, since it must last a long time and be as futureproof as possible.

Lets take a quick look at this with processors.

An Intel Core2Duo 1.8GHz processor is running at about $170 dollars at NewEgg. A 2.1GHz Core 2 Duo is running at $190 dollars. A 2.4GHz Core 2 Duo is going for $230. And a 2.66 Core 2 Duo is running $320. So, you could get a Core 2 Duo which will do anyone well enough for $170. However, for an additional 20 bucks you can increase your processor speed by .3GHz. Or for an additional 60 bucks from the 1.8 at $170 you can move up .6GHz. However, past 2.4 you will need to spend an additional $90 dollars to go up .2GHz. So the 2.4 seems the best bang for the buck, although you can go lower for 60 dollars more, the future performance hit will become evident sooner than with the 2.4. This is one reason I waited till April to build the new computer because I knew Intel was dropping their prices. FYI, the Third Quarter of 07 should see the next price range drop with the Core2Duo 3.0 processors coming in at around $260 and the 2.4 quad cores at the same price. Which would then make them the best bang for the buck I think. Although the new Peryton Quad Cores might be better if they work as advertised.

The same holds for the case. Sure I could have gone with a 50 dollar case, but they would not have given adequate ventilation or space for all of my components. Even the 100 dollars ones would be a bit tight. Only the cases at about 140-160 on NewEgg has the length needed to really fit the 8800 GTS/X series graphics cards while giving good ventilation. Sure, its only an extra few inches, but in this case that is very important for proper ventilation of high heat components and to reduce noise.

Another example of this. My PC Power and Cooling powersupply is expensive. It is also long. About 1.5 inches longer than the standard powersupply unit. What does this mean? It means it only has a single fan and still runs silent and far far cooler than any other similarly rated powersupply on the market that I know of. Why? Because there is that 1.5 inches of space between the exhaust fan and the nearest component. This allows for much better airflow, as well as reducing air turbulence which causes noise and reduces airflow. It is a small difference, and yet it produces very nice results.

In the end though, if a computer does what you need it to do, then it's is a good computer and a good build. If you are happy with a 1k computer and it does all that you need it to, then that's all you really need. Of course, there is no way a 1k computer can even come close to the performance of my 2k computer. It wont even be 50% of it. However, most games dont even need 50% of what my computer can do, so it isnt really necessary for most people. I play Vanguard, however, and so I need a top flight system to play it with even relatively decent graphics.

[josephowens]

As long as you have a decent understanding of computers, how they work, and can install a copy of WinXP/Vista then you are always going to be able to build a better computer for the money (at the mid to top end) than a manufacturer. Now, a low end system is going to be better through a company like Dell because you get a complete system for 500-600 dollars. But for anything mid range or higher, it's going to be more expensive. And come loaded with bloatware that'll take forever to remove.

The big problem with those 500-600 systems from any company, is that they use very cheap parts, that just will not hold up over time. This is why I tell people to stay away from them.


The computer I priced out above (made a mistake with the mouse, it should be $50, not 450) would run well under 2k for just the computer. I believe around 1600. And it would be within a few percent of my 2k computer, which also includes a second 20 inch monitor. So even my 2k computer build was only around 1800. It sounds expensive even so, but I will not need to think of upgrading any part of it (other than perhaps XP to Vista) for at least 1.5-2 years. And that is playing top end games both out now and coming out. I can guarantee a 1k computer, if you want to game at the top end with full graphics) will be obsolete and in need of at least a graphics card upgrade within the next 12 months. A pair of 7 series GeForce cards will not ever be able to compare to even a low end 8 series card. And the games are coming that will stress even a mid to high end 8 series card. But that's at least a year or two down the line. Even ATI doesnt have anything right now that'll come close to the 8 series card. Perhaps in a few months, but we'll have to see about that.

Very true words...


My 2k computer will run 3 instances of Everquest at max graphics for all 3 instances with zero lag and 100% stability (ran 3 in 2 different 8 hour 40+ person raids over the weekend to stress test it), and it never went beyond about 50-60% utilization. And that was with Firefox running. It did come fairly close to maxing out with bittorent up, but that is a CPU hog to begin with. And it never went beyond 42 degrees centigrade on the CPU or 65 degrees on the GPU. That is performance.

Really? that is damn good!!


When getting anything, I prefer to go with the maximum bang for the buck. Not necessarily top top end, but the best item for the lowest cost with good reliability. I do not just look at something that is top end, it must be reliable as well. Nor is price the only consideration, since it must last a long time and be as futureproof as possible.

Words to live to by...
---
Anyway, I usually build my own system too, however I work in the IT field and work for one of if not the largest IT service company in the US. This gives use some really nice discounts with are vendors and Companies we do services for. HP is one of those service and we get there employee discounts on anything we buy from there online store. So last July just after the price drop of the Intel duo core processors I was able to get a deal for a Custom built pc.

MS Windows XP Media CE 2005
Intel Duo Core at 3.2ghz, 2GB of ram 667mhz, 2 250 HDDs, Nvidia GF 7600GS 512mb of ram and can use up to 512mb of the system memory if needed and SLI support. Also came with a dual TV tuner and more video/audio in and out ports I can even use. Creative SB Audigy 4 card, I could have go eith the FX card, but Sound is not a big deal for me and I don't have the room really for the speaks the card would need. DVD Burner and DVD-Rom drives, all the standard memory card slots.

The reg price was around 1,850 and I got it for about 1,500. At the time I couldn't build a system as nice for the same price so I ordered it. The system has run great, I can usually play a game, have IE7 running, and it will be recording 1 or 2 TV shows and it doesn't slow down at all. Since then I was able to pick up a 500 GB drive for a good price and installed it to give me 1 TB of space.

The only problem I had was after I first installed Windows Vista Ult ED 32bit back in February. One problem was Nvidia really dropped the ball at first on having working Drives for there video cards in Vista. They seem to have been working hard to fix the problems and with each driver update things have gotten better, however they still have a few things to work out.

I also had to max out the memory to 4GB and since then everything has been working great in Vista. Vista just loves the memory, but that is nothing new from Microsoft. So if you are playing games by all means 4GB, if not then 2GB is just fine.

The only thing I really plan to do to it in the future is after the warranty is over, is up the Graphic's card to the 8 series or whatever series card they have out at the time, but that is a good 2+ years away.

[Rhodes]

thought 32 bit o/s can only use up to 4 gigs of memory which includes your graphics card and virtual memory... so if you plug in 4 gigs memory sticks into your mb... you wont be using all 4 since your not factoring in your graphics card (esp if your in SLI for GeForce) nor your virtual memory that windows always uses.

[josephowens]

thought 32 bit o/s can only use up to 4 gigs of memory which includes your graphics card and virtual memory... so if you plug in 4 gigs memory sticks into your mb... you wont be using all 4 since your not factoring in your graphics card (esp if your in SLI for GeForce) nor your virtual memory that windows always uses.

Ummm you are somewhat right, with 32bit Windows will only see 3.5GB of System Ram. You still have Virtual Memory as my PC is still setting a side 3.5GB of HDD space for it and the memeory that is own my Video Card is still used by my video card. Having the 3.5GB allows my video card to also use 512mb of the system ram if it needs it and still leave me 3GB for Windows to use.

Now the real question is, why can't windows 32bit not see more then 3.5GB of ram? I've never been able to find a good anwser for that one.

[stfram]

Now the real question is, why can't windows 32bit not see more then 3.5GB of ram? I've never been able to find a good anwser for that one.


From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_XP_Professional_x64_Edition


The primary benefit of moving to 64-bit is the increase in the maximum allocatable system memory (RAM). Windows XP 32-bit is limited to a total of 4 GB, which is, by default, equally divided between Kernel and application usage. Using the /3GB switch in the boot.ini file forces Windows to limit the kernel to the upper 1GB and provides up to 3GB for applications.


I quoted the above since some here may find the last bit useful.

And I found this on the EA Games forum, which gives us a nice architecture/programming explanation:


...a 32 bit operating system has 32 bit pointers. Pointers point to virtual memory locations in page file tables. The page files point to the physical memory location in RAM or on the hard drive. A 32 bit point can only have 2^32 different combinations. Therefore you can only access 4 GB of of data in a 32 bit operating system because the pointer can only have 2^32 combinations without repeating.


Mind you, things could be worse.

In the 9X days, we were limited to 256mb of ram.

Sure, you could install 512mb, but it wouldn't be used. Furthermore, installing more than 768mb would cause out of memory errors in 9X OS's.

This was fixed in NT4, of course. Not much could be done for 98 and Me since nobody in that timeframe really had a huge amount of ram, and until they started getting calls, MS didn't know that 9X would error out past 768mb.

XP freed us from that, and gave us 4gb to play with.

[Citizen Klaus]

- OS : Windows Vista Home Premium 64 Bit


Well you're apparently a gamer so I'll cut you some slack. I personally would have Linux on there before Windows (and then use XP)


Battra, you and my father should have a chat. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard, "Son, you should've installed Linux," I wouldn't be living at home right now. :P

[Ty]

- OS : Windows Vista Home Premium 64 Bit


Well you're apparently a gamer so I'll cut you some slack. I personally would have Linux on there before Windows (and then use XP)


Battra, you and my father should have a chat. If I had a nickel for every time I've heard, "Son, you should've installed Linux," I wouldn't be living at home right now. :P
Wow, not your average father. I bet he has a coffee mug with one of those color Apple logos from the 80's, am I right? :P