Shigurui

[Andrew Cunningham]

Anime version of an infamously violent samurai manga.
It has a certain amount of freakshow appeal, and occasionally managed to be ponderously intense, but the pacing was really, really leaden. Entering a flashback in the middle of a flashback was a bad idea as well - I feel like the story never really settled on a hook.
The result was more boring than anything else.
And it's almost entirely in black and white, which seemed like they were trying to tone down the violence...this is basically not the kind of project that can work on TV any more, even Wowow.

[DKL]

Hmmm... I've been wanting to see this (never read the manga, but since it's a Madhouse project... well...) as I was assuming that this was from the same dude that did Texhnolyze (but, uhh... translation seems all over the place, so I can't tell for sure)...

Uhh... Hiroshi Hamasaki... who I think was doing storyboards with Kawajiri over in Highlander: The Search for Vengeance

(unless the dude in Vengenance is a completely different person altogether... all I know is that some sequences felt like they were lifted out of Texhnolyze *specifically the flashback with Marcus and Moya in it*... ah... the troubles of being an English-speaking fan)

...

Wonder if anyone will sub this?

Also, it seems to go under the name "Shigurui" everywhere else (well, ANN)

[DKL]

OH wow...

I saw the summer promotional video and this thing looks BEAUTIFUL...

(and, judging by the style... yeah, it's definitely Hamasaki; liked the detailed individual reactions of those samurai dudes)

Anyway, given that I enjoyed the stylized, yet slow approach in Texhnolyze (where there's almost like NO dialogue int he first episode), there's a good chance that I'll like this...

...

Just hope that someone subs it soon...

[Andrew Cunningham]

(and, judging by the style... yeah, it's definitely Hamasaki; liked the detailed individual reactions of those samurai dudes)


That does explain why there's no color in it, and some of the more bizarre stylistic choices.
There's a lot of strengths to it, but it felt like it still hasn't arrived at the beginning of the story. I wonder if this was really the right director to adapt this particular manga.
I didn't hate it, and I may well give it a second chance - depending on the number of other new anime that I decide to follow. I've already got four shows I'm barely keeping up with, and Doctor Who appears to have given way to John From Cincinnati and Burn Notice...

[DKL]

Well, it's really up to you to decide; you have the original subject matter on hand, so you can base an opinion in that context.

If I ever get to see this, I'm most likely just gonna put it against Texhnolyze.

(or just look at it as an individual piece of work)

But yeah, all things considering, Texhnolyze had an extremely bizzare and unconventional style of storytelling (but then, maybe whoever was putting the production together thought that the manga [for Shigurui] was bizzare in its own way too, hence the decision to stake Hamasaki on this project); from what I could remember, most of the exposition [in Texhnolyze] was done through shots of various parts of the world in order to "explain" it and the interpretation of how that world functioned was left to the viewer.

It didn't feel careless though since there was more than enough detail (in both the design and the art) that allowed the viewer to infer what was going on, but it DEFINITELTY took its time.

(coupled together with extremely cryptic dialogue... yeah... I can sort of see how that would come across as boring... but, I was fond of it since it felt successfully mysterious)

But yes... I'm VERY interested in this show (and... yeah, the trailer was really glorious... with the awesome music and stuff).

[Andrew Cunningham]

I like mysterious, but you need to give me a little basis to ground the show and make the mystery intriguing instead of off-putting.

I'd actually not read the Shigurui manga, but I just read the first three chapters and might well pick it up soon.
The place where they ended the episode was a strange choice - the end of the third chapter ended up hooking me a lot better than the proceeding events, and I can't help but feel if the director had moved things along a little less ponderously he might have had a more effective first episode.
Likewise, the vague attempts at toning down the freakshow gore made a few bits hard to follow that were quite strikingly grusome in the manga.

[roastedpekingduck]

I could stand the gore in Texhnolyze, but I just couldn't get through the first episode of Shigurui. I could see that the series was going to have top-notch production values, from the artsy OP, to the tense music, and great animation...but if the gore is this intense throughout the series, I'm not going to last. Call me weak, but I just had to stop during the finger breaking part. One thing I can't stand is seeing fingers being broken, and the other thing that really disgusts me are eye injuries, though I was able to withstand the eye injury in Texhnolyze after a lot of grimacing.

[Andrew Cunningham]

And here I was complaining that the violence was severely toned down from the manga...

[DKL]

Well, I dunno... I find it strangely appropriate to depict the violence like that... but yeah, it's pretty brutal... much due in part to the fact of how realistic it's portrayed, I imagine.

I mean, it's graphic, but it's not overly-exaggerated or super-glorified; it's pretty raw... or something like that... giving enough time to convey the grimmace and stuff.

(adds to the realisim and atmosphere and stuff)

But yeah, it's a pretty neat story and I like how they use visuals to tell it; little things like those adviser dudes bowing at that shogun-brother guy's feet painted a pretty big picture:

"We don't like this BS, but we have to go along with it since he's the boss."

And on the guy's face, it's all: "I wanna see people get fucked up really badly, so I don't give a rat's ass what you punk-bitches think."

I'm definitely on board for this; it's those little details that really make it awesome.

I hope they bring this to the US though; I'd love to own this on DVD.

[roastedpekingduck]

And here I was complaining that the violence was severely toned down from the manga...
I didn't care much for the intestine part or sword injuries, but the finger breaking just made me turn off Shigurui.

I personally thought a bit of the violence was unrealistic. Pulling out your intestines is quite hard to do, because there is a sticky membrane that holds it in place. It would take a ton of strength to just pull it out. Then again, I rarely have seen realistic gore in anime.

The show mainly just made me feel REALLY uncomfortable and disconcerted, and it just didn't appear like something that I was going to watch and enjoy instead of suffer through. :(

[Dagger]

I was curious about this because of the Texhnolyze comparisons that have been thrown around, but it sounds like it's probably not for me. I could take the violence in, say, Elfen Lied, but it had a somewhat cartoonish quality to it (er, no pun intended) that made it more bearable.

[DKL]

I didn't care much for the intestine part or sword injuries, but the finger breaking just made me turn off Shigurui.

Oh, that scene was pretty neat...

What I liked about Fujiki's expressions was that:

He wasn't so pissed off about the fact that his fingers were ruined as he was about the fact that some random dude just steps into the dojo and hands him his ass; he's mortified and hates the fact that his fellow students *who seem to be under him* had to see him in a position like that.

It's really great.

[DKL]

I personally thought a bit of the violence was unrealistic. Pulling out your intestines is quite hard to do, because there is a sticky membrane that holds it in place. It would take a ton of strength to just pull it out. Then again, I rarely have seen realistic gore in anime.



I was under the impression that he was doing that through a katana wound (well, it was a demonstration after all).

That said, it feels like it's conveyed realistically... or, to the very least, not as unrealistically as a lot of the other stuff I've seen.

Again, that feeling of painful grimace is just really there and I find it hard imagining myself getting desensitize like I would with other stuff.

[roastedpekingduck]

The pain was definitely there. Shigurui does a really good job of making you feel the pain as the wounds happen. I found myself clutching my own abdomen as that part happened.

[HitokiriShadow]

I watched the first episode with virtually no knowledge of what it was about other than that it involved samurai.

I nearly fell asleep. In addition to barely animating most of it, the style was, as Andrew said, bizarre at times. Apparently, in Japan, sand glows or something, because good god, those were some bright backgrounds. Based on the other cost cutting measures they seemed to take, I'd say it was just an excuse to save time on drawing some of the backgrounds.

As for the story... they took an entire episode to tell what could have been done in 6-7 minutes. They really liked those stillshots and panning of still or barely animated shots.

I might try the second episode, if I'm bored, but I can't say I'm looking forward to it. I'm curious to see if it improves, but there are enough other shows to check out that its a pretty low priority.

[HellKorn]

So am I to take it that, both on AoD and ANN, that only DKL and myself really got some enjoyment out of it? Of course, I didn't expect Hamasaki's direction to be embraced considering Texhnolyze is about as polarizing as they come with its first episode, but...

Well, it's always amusing to see reactions to things that experiment a bit.

I nearly fell asleep.

I'm curious: what's the difference between this and Texhnolyze? I know I talked to you at least once about it a ways back, and you didn't seem adverse to it, at the very least.

Apparently, in Japan, sand glows or something, because good god, those were some bright backgrounds. Based on the other cost cutting measures they seemed to take, I'd say it was just an excuse to save time on drawing some of the backgrounds.

It's definitely not a matter of cutting down on production values; it's just Hamasaki's style.

And I'm not sure why people are complaining about the animation. In most anime television series you have a lot of awkward movement, and there's rarely an emphasis on those small movements in facial muscles, fingers, clothes, et cetera.

I'd love for someone to point to an anime television series that gives this much detail (assuming that fansub snapshots aren't going to raise hell around here):

01 (http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/8427/shigurui01freakshow01mw8.jpg)
02 (http://img452.imageshack.us/img452/9443/shigurui01freakshow02nr3.jpg)
03 (http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5452/shigurui01freakshow03mb8.jpg)

I actually think Hige does a good job capturing those details in this entry (http://hvo.typepad.com/hvo/2007/07/shigurui-ep-1.html) on his blog:

Direction-wise it presents us with something quite unique for an anime. The production values for this first episode are undeniably high, but the amount of actual movement is nominal. This doesn't seem like a compensation technique, however, because each movement is expertly considered and perfectly compliments its visual intensity. I wanted to write about how different it seems from Kurosawa's films, with so many invasive headshots and a general sense of claustrophobia controlling every scene - that it seems distinctly anime in its approach - but Shigurui has more in common with its live-action contemporaries than it does with other anime. Each scene is a set piece and any sign of movement is a signal, a direction for the audience with a distinct sense of meaning and purpose. Anime strides for capturing realistic moment so much so that it becomes inherently unrealistic; humans don't move in the way anime illustrates human moment. Shigurui, with its intense restraint, captures the natural stasis of these kind of feudal sword fights. Every step and motion is perfectly considered by its combatant and even the slightest misjudgement could mean the difference between victory and defeat. It's almost unbearably rigid and fantastically absorbing; Shigurui is a treat for the eyes and the nerves.

That said, while I loved the direction, art, animation, music -- essentially every part of its technical side -- I do agree with Andrew about the second flashback. I can appreciate characters being fleshed out in that way, though the flow is interrupted here. It would've helped if the first flashback had been cut and we'd been introduced to Fujiki and Irako when they first met, thus allowing more room in the first episode for more development.

That complaint aside, I'm definitely looking forward to more. I'm probably one of very few who loves Hamasaki's style, and I do trust Seishi Minakami (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/people.php?id=8361) to pull it together.

[HitokiriShadow]

I nearly fell asleep.

I'm curious: what's the difference between this and Texhnolyze? I know I talked to you at least once about it a ways back, and you didn't seem adverse to it, at the very least.

I liked Texhnolyze, though it certainly had a unique first episode. As for the difference? Aside from the obvious (setting, story, etc.), I don't know. I guess it may have helped that I could move right on to the next episode (as I already had the whole thing) and that Yoshitoshi ABe was involved. As I said before, I may give this another chance, its just a lower priority.

Apparently, in Japan, sand glows or something, because good god, those were some bright backgrounds. Based on the other cost cutting measures they seemed to take, I'd say it was just an excuse to save time on drawing some of the backgrounds.

It's definitely not a matter of cutting down on production values; it's just Hamasaki's style.

Well, if you say so. That's just how it seemed to me.

And I'm not sure why people are complaining about the animation. In most anime television series you have a lot of awkward movement, and there's rarely an emphasis on those small movements in facial muscles, fingers, clothes, et cetera.

Probably because its easier to notice these things when you are bored, or at least its more of an issue. That isn't to say I don't notice it even in shows I'm enjoying; I'm currently watching my YYH sets, and I'm certainly noticing the animation shortcuts, among other things, in it. The art in Shigurui was great, lots of detail and well done, so that wasn't a problem for me. And some scenes certainly were animated well. But there were a lot of stills and pans, and the whole episode seemed to drag.

[DKL]

The thing about subtle movement is...

It usually tends to come across as inefficient and awkward in a lot of shows; I honestly feel like this is one of those shows where they actually NAIL it; hands move delicately and have the correct use of perspective, facial expressions are detailed and paint a big picture, etc.

Also, one of the focal uses of lighting is really nice (notice the scene where sunlight casts on Fujiki's face... also,that scene had individual strands of hair being animated... definitely not a job where the animators have their dicks in their hands).

And the use of stills actually contributed for a change; notice that scene I talked about where a bunch of people were bowing at Tokugawa's feet; the expressions were very solid and detailed.

(and I mean... this is after a sequence a sequence of individually animated walk-cycles)

But, it depends I guess...

I'd honestly rather have a lot of detail poured into subtle, coherent movement, even though it might come across as unobvious.

Also, the whole glowing pebble thing was a nice little camera-effect where the lens is saturated or something...

Oh, and I also liked the indivdually-animated bits and pieces.

[roastedpekingduck]

Hiroshi is certainly excellent at subtlety. It's just a style where the viewer usually has to pay a lot of attention. When people watch Texhnolyze, some complained that Ran, Ichise, and some other supporting characters never developed substantially, but they failed to notice that so much development was being shown through subtlety. I take it that this style carried over to Shigurui from the sounds of things, but unfortunately, I was too busy grimacing instead of paying attention. :sd:

[DKL]

But then, if it's boring to people, then it's boring...

Reason why I really like this is that, beyond all the hubbub of excellent filmmaking and crap, I can denominate the experience to two words: FUCKING AWESOME.

In the end, this is just something I find to be really entertaining...

I can pay attention to all the other stuff later.

That said, I have a weird feeling that this'll be a slow release.

[HellKorn]

Ha, well, I guess attaching Yoshitoshi ABe's name to any project will get a lot of the more devoted anime fans' attention. Can't say I complain about that, since I've loved anything that he's had a hand in creating, no matter how minuscule.

And really, when it comes down to it, you're going to have dips in animation (and art) quality every so often, and that's true for all anime television series (unless your name is Mitsuo Iso and your coddling your fourteen-year-old baby named Denno Coil). What I do appreciate is when directors strive for consistency, and while there were some drops in the aforementioned production values in Texhnolyze now and then (Shigurui will inevitably encounter this problem as well), it wasn't anywhere near as noticeable as it is for other series. For the most part, there's animation done when it needs to be done, and actually I'd even go so far as to say Shigurui will trump Texhnolyze in that area if my speculation that Hamasaki has become even more selective on where he places animation, when there's going to be a long pan, et cetera.

Hiroshi is certainly excellent at subtlety. It's just a style where the viewer usually has to pay a lot of attention. When people watch Texhnolyze, some complained that Ran, Ichise, and some other supporting characters never developed substantially, but they failed to notice that so much development was being shown through subtlety.

The characters would be more in Chiaki Konaka's ballpark, given that I think he had the most creative control over that series.

I take it that this style carried over to Shigurui from the sounds of things, but unfortunately, I was too busy grimacing instead of paying attention. :sd:

Which kind of makes me wonder how you'd react to some ultra-violent manga...

It usually takes two episodes for me to get a handle on a series, but after just the first episode I'd love it if Shigurui were licensed. (I hope Geneon is listening.)

[roastedpekingduck]

Surprisingly enough, I have no problem with gory manga and was able to get through some of Shigurui in manga form without any problem. :sd: I think putting things in motion and giving voices just makes things a lot more intense for me to handle. For example, I got to take a look at some cadavers once and human body parts while in a medical program, and since the cadavers were just motionless, I had no problems whatsoever.

[DKL]

Oh jesus...

You mean I saw the censored version?

I mean, the TV version is apparently a lot more graphic than what was used for the fansubs...

Edit (semi-spoilers for first episode):

http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4559/shiguruiep1rg9.jpg

Yup...

I definitely saw the censored version...

I'm kinda creeped out, to be honest (as the censored version was brutal enough)

[Andrew Cunningham]

Argh! Yeah, the uncensored version would probably removed the majority of my complaints.
Except the pacing issues.
Should have known better than to watch the preview version broadcast on the unscrambled WOWOW...

[HellKorn]

Well, given what (spoilers for episode 01) this (http://img390.imageshack.us/img390/2238/shigurui01censoredzl2.jpg) turned out to be, I figured that it was censored in some way... but I didn't realize that the actual color was as well.

I somehow feel a bit let down, though at least the DVD version will be free of that.

[HellKorn]

Holy shit.

I can't get past how overwhelming the cinematography, animation, art, and music are. Anyone complaining about the animation from episode one would have to eat their words after watching this, because it's stunning how much detail and smooth movement was done here.

I'm an unabashed Texhnolyze fanatic, but I have to say that Shigurui is well ahead of it when considering all of the technical details. Hamasaki just steps it up to a whole other level with this, and the Madhouse visuals do not disappoint in the slightest.

Atmosphere's the key word here.

The story is also emphasizing the freakshow element that Andrew mentioned. Amusingly Irako turns out to be, frankly, a bit of a pussy while still maintaining an air of arrogance, and Kogan... man, words escape me to describe him.

I'm probably one of incredibly few people lovin' it so far. It's atypical in so many ways. All I can really hope for after these first two episodes is that Madhouse doesn't fudge together some ending, considering this is only twelve episodes.

[Andrew Cunningham]

I turned it off halfway through the second episode.
Nothing happened, nothing moved. There was next to no animation, just a bunch of still shots that gradually went out of focus. Leaden, ponderous and boring.
I will make a point of never watching anything this director does ever again. He has no clue how to pace an episode or create any kind of tension.

[HellKorn]

It's where our tastes diverge, then.

Any idea on how long the manga currently is and the novel that it and the show are based on? I'd be grateful to see any part of this licensed, but I'm worried about length, never mind the reluctance of any English manga publisher to pick up something risqué like this.

[Andrew Cunningham]

It would be creepy if we agreed on everything.

I think the manga was nine volumes, last I checked.

I believe it's actually based on a novel which is a retelling of an even older novel, but each incarnation bears basically no resemblance to the previous version. I read the JWikipedia entry, but it made my head hurt.

I'll probably have to take a look at the manga someday, if I ever manage to catch up on my massive reading pile. Like that's ever going to happen.

[HellKorn]

I don't think that it's possible for any two people to share the exact same tastes, anyway.

And as for the manga, to Amazon Japan we go! (http://www.amazon.co.jp/s/ref=nb_ss_fg_eng/503-0269826-3137575?__mk_ja_JP=%83J%83%5E%83J%83i&initialSearch=1&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=%83V%83O%83%8B%83C&Go.x=7&Go.y=12)

Eight volumes with the ninth due out later this month, with no indication of stopping.

So then what the hell's the name of the novel(s) that Shigurui is based on? I recall coming across it a while back, but memory is shit, as usual.

[HitokiriShadow]

I can't get past how overwhelming the cinematography, animation, art, and music are. Anyone complaining about the animation from episode one would have to eat their words after watching this, because it's stunning how much detail and smooth movement was done here.


It was certainly an improvement over the first episode, though there was still a lot of standing still and talking without much of anything going on. It did looke very nice though.

My bigger problem was that I was utterly confused and couldn't tell what was going on. At least part of this was because I couldn't remember anyone's names from the first episode, so people would start tossing names about and I didn't know who they were talking about.

[Andrew Cunningham]

駿府凄絶大仕合
Sunpu Sugozetsu Dai Shiai
Probably. I might have missed a voiced consonant somewhere.

[DKL]

Shigurui, episode 2. This is a very strange series indeed. . . I thought that it would take on a more coherent and linear narrative after the first episode, but the style remains just as odd.

I have no idea why, but the story is coming across incredibly coherent to me for some reason, despite the fact that everything is jumbled all over the place.

So, in this episode, we learn that Irako is:

A douche and wants to bone the head master's daughter (I mean, after claiming all of his stuff.. 300... somethings). Also, the guy with the Shooting Star stance was apparently made a fool of by the Kogan-stance head master dude

Awesome.

(Though, I wish the names were easier to remember... and, I should really watch again as I'm not completely sure with all the details...)

Talking about that quasi-sex sequence... MAN, it was ridiculously GORGEOUS...

The art and animation for this show is amazing. The formality of all that samurai stuff comes across REALLY solid thanks to the extra attention to detail given to subtle movements; I love it.

Favorite sequence is probably when they induct Irako into the dojo; I was completely puzzled at what the hell was actually going on and it was a nice way to build up tension.

Yeah... I'm a fan of the style of animation here; I'd be bitching if the movement was cheap, but it's very precise and sharp whenever it actually does happen; awesome stuff.

Love how that dude was swinging the big sword around... loved the blossoms (and tits)... loved the... uh... detailed flatulance (or whatever that's called).

[roastedpekingduck]

This time I wasn't bothered by the gore, but somehow, again I just couldn't stick around for a full episode. It wasn't really bad, but there was nothing that compelled me to watch, unlike say the director's other work, Texhnolyze, where from the beginning I was drawn into the screen. I've seen a lot worse shows, but I just haven't had been able to finish any episode of Shigurui. With school rapidly approaching, I can't really waste my time and watch a show I don't like, so it looks like unfortunately Shigurui will be a casualty.


On another note, I noticed that Houko Kuwashima was in Shigurui as well. Boy is she a busy person! O.O Right now, she also is in many other shows that are airing. She is a lead in Saiunkoku Monogatari, a lead in Claymore, played the woman in Mononoke, and probably has done some other minor roles as well. Her list of already prolific credits just grows ever larger in size every season.

[DKL]

I like this show better than Texhnolyze mainly because the plot seems a lot easier to understand (despite the hectic jumps all over the place)...

Well, that and the Samurai-culture and whatever comes across as really awesome here thanks to the way stuff is shot and staged.

Like: damn, that stuff is cool.

Even the samurai-yelling was cool.

(is that what it was?)

But yeah: cool.

[roastedpekingduck]

You know what? I've changed my mind about not watching Shigurui. After rewatching episode one today, the gore no longer affects me at all, because this time around, I was able to "tune out" the gore as animated stuff. Shigurui still doesn't sit well with me when it takes the still-image approach to things, and also the weird fixation on exaggerated muscles confuses me, but I'm intrigued enough to keep watching. Does anyone else know how much episodes this is going to go for? 13 seems like a good length. 26 episodes wouldn't bode too well for a show like this.

[HellKorn]

Does anyone else know how much episodes this is going to go for?

Twelve seems to be the number that's thrown around. Whether this is a "watch and then read the manga, bitches" or a "focus on one of/the crucial aspect(s) of the story" adaption... I've no clue.

[roastedpekingduck]

After episode three, I'm dropping out. While the disconcerting style and atmosphere were able to keep me watching for the first two episodes, and I've even grown used to the gore, the characters in Shugurui are doing nothing for me and try as I might, I just can't get myself to become interested in any of them. Though Texhnolyze has a comparable amount of dialogue, the characters in Texhnolyze were substantially more interesting for me.