Curious question about long running series . . .

[ryverstar]

Is it a given that any anime series going beyond 55 episodes is going to pretty much suck rocks with the great majority of the anime audience while keeping a very small set of dedicated (and some overly dedicated) fans?

I ask this question confessing to watching (or owning) the following long running shows:

Yu Yu Hakusho -- Rented, enjoyed, Dark Tournament arc ran too long
Urusei Yatsura TV -- Bought up to VHS tape 20, regretted it after tape 15
Rurouni Kenshin -- Own the 3 boxsets, 3rd box was a gift (free) . . . I got what I paid for
Slayers TV -- Saw 2.5 seasons via OnDemand cable
InuYasha -- no comment, wounds are too fresh, letting sleeping dogs lie
Dragonball/Z/GT -- Cartoon Network
Maison Ikkoku -- Own it

That does not include any other long running shows currently airing on CN. It seems like they won't pick up anything under 55 episodes. Hmm . . . could CN be the kiss of death and not the length of the series. Hadn't thought of that possibility before.

[Andrew Cunningham]

There are series that have the balls to end the moment they catch up with the anime. These generally lead to people complaining that the anime didn't finish the story...
HunterXHunter, for example, ends in the middle of a storyline. They did, however, do an OAV to finish that arc up, and a couple of OAVs for the next arc.

[something]

Is it a given that any anime series going beyond 55 episodes is going to pretty much suck rocks with the great majority of the anime audience while keeping a very small set of dedicated (and some overly dedicated) fans?
Seeing as how some of the most wildly successful anime ever are far longer than 55 episodes, I have to question your concept of "very small".

Like it or not, filler or not, Bleach and Naruto and Precure and One Piece have, and probably always will, pull in better ratings in Japan than most shows. Not to mention 'family favorites' like Sazae-san or Doraemon where 55 episodes is a rounding error.

[Johnny]

Well personally my preference is long running (Shonen) series such as Naruto, Bleach, Yu Yu, Dragonball and so on.

If you can take a liking to the characters and story early on then it makes it all the easier.

Amount of filler is definitely a make-or-break element in longer shows too.

[PhilipReuben]

Seeing as how some of the most wildly successful anime ever are far longer than 55 episodes, I have to question your concept of "very small".

Like it or not, filler or not, Bleach and Naruto and Precure and One Piece have, and probably always will, pull in better ratings in Japan than most shows. Not to mention 'family favorites' like Sazae-san or Doraemon where 55 episodes is a rounding error.

Even with English-speaking fans, DBZ, Naruto, Bleach and Inu Yasha are clearly some of the most popular series there are. They don't have a small, dedicated group of fans, they have a large and dedicated group of fans, much larger than most 26-episode shows.

[Vicserr]

Considering that one of my anime wet dreams would be to own R1 versions of Mazinger Z (92 eps), Great Mazinger (56 eps) and Ufo Robo Grendizer (74 eps), So I'm not scared of long series, and we all know there series like Naruto, DBZ and Bleach are over a 100 eps and series like Sasae-san and Doraemon number in the thousands of eps O.O

[mike.motaku]

This raises an interesting question as a sort of sideline to yours re the relative popularities of arc vs. episodic anime. Some of the most popular, longest-running anime in Japan are purely episodic with little to no growth in the characters and no tightly defined storyline. Sazae-san has been running since the late '60s, Doraemon, Crayon Shin-chan and others like them are huge, long-running favorites, whereas arc-filled fare fizzle out if they wander too far out of what the manga-driven watcher wants to see.

Even in the US the most popular, longest-running shows are things like The Flintstones, The Simpsons, King of the Hill, even Family Guy where the characters only age in dream sequences and learn lessons only for the duration of a single episode.

I think a huge part of the problem is the source material and the vagaries of the marketplace. If a manga is popular enough to get developed as a series the show developers have to get it out while the popularity lasts and hope there is enough manga material available to keep it going if the show becomes popular. If not, they can't just take a popular show off the air until the manga advances enough to continue the arc, especially if it hasn't reached a natural stopping point. That would be killing whatever revenue they can get from broadcast rights and there's no guarantee the audience will stick with them through the filler or come back after an extended hiatus. So they've got quite a problem to deal with. Are they handling it well? Opinions vary wildly.

The solution used to be to just animate one small arc out of a longer series as an OVA and treat it as an ad for the manga. Another was to go after only shorter manga that had already wrapped up or novels. I guess now the feeling is more along the lines of hoping people like the characters enough that they will stick around through the filler. It's a tricky business to be in as fans are a cantankerous lot at best.

[Relwarc]

This raises an interesting question as a sort of sideline to yours re the relative popularities of arc vs. episodic anime. Some of the most popular, longest-running anime in Japan are purely episodic with little to no growth in the characters and no tightly defined storyline.

What comes immediately to mind for me is Detective Conan or "Case Closed." It doesn't seem as if anything, but episodic mysteries take place in that series. Unfathomably, it's still quite popular. Then, there's Prince of Tennis, which I wholly admit to being addicted to. However, if I tried to buy it all, at about 13 episodes per boxset from Viz (and assuming they license the OVAs), it would take around 16-17 boxsets to complete. That's just insane! And then, of course, there's ridiculously long series like Bleach and Naruto, which I wouldn't go near with a ten-foot pole with my dollars.

I find the recycled nature of shonen series to be well...repetitive. And in my experience, they get worse the longer they drag it out. DBGT, anyone?

[4Tran]

Is it a given that any anime series going beyond 55 episodes is going to pretty much suck rocks with the great majority of the anime audience while keeping a very small set of dedicated (and some overly dedicated) fans?
Actually, it should be the other way around. The only reason for shows to go beyond a certain length is because it has the audience to support it. Hence, the longevity of a show should correlate to how popular it is. Otaku shows tend to have a limited audience, so there's a definite cap to how long they can be. There are a few exceptions to this; for example, Legend of Galactic Heroes probably relied on a relatively small audience, but there aren't a whole lot of super-long OVA series out there.

This raises an interesting question as a sort of sideline to yours re the relative popularities of arc vs. episodic anime. Some of the most popular, longest-running anime in Japan are purely episodic with little to no growth in the characters and no tightly defined storyline.
I think that this makes a lot of sense. Episodic shows are much more accessible than their plot-driven counterparts; hence they require less of an investment on the part of the audience. Next, most people watch television shows when it's convenient - in an episodic series, there's no harm done if you missed an episode or two, while you'd be playing catch-up (note that this also highlights the practical reason for re-cap episodes). Finally, the episodic shows are less likely to carry the stigma of the otaku shows, so it's easier for them to find a much larger audience. I also find it rather interesting that the ratings a show gets are often unrelated to how well their DVDs sell.

[joelgundam01]

There are series that have the balls to end the moment they catch up with the manga.

I fixed it for you. I had to read that sentence a couple of times, just to figure out what were you trying to say. :nervous:

[LelouchLamperouge]

There are series that have the balls to end the moment they catch up with the anime. These generally lead to people complaining that the anime didn't finish the story...
HunterXHunter, for example, ends in the middle of a storyline. They did, however, do an OAV to finish that arc up, and a couple of OAVs for the next arc.


That's my feeling exactly, another example is my beloved D.Gray-man, ep.27-38 have been filler(but darn good filler) - and the series is only scheduled for 52 episodes. The anime staff are waiting for Katsura Hoshino to end the current story arc (supposedly the one of the last arcs) in the coming weeks so they have more material to use.

I'm sure that D.Gray-man will have another 26-52 episodes. Either way, I'll gladly buy the DVDs, as long as its not Viz. :P

D.Gray-man is the only exception to my "No Long Shonen Series" rule. :)

[Suwako Moriya]

On one hand a series will become long in part due to popularity ie because many fans enjoy the show. After all you need a reason to start making more episodes. Which is a large enough fandom for the show. However big that has to be. However on the other hand because a show is long there will be those such as myself that will be cautious about checking out certain series. Simply because we'd be thinking "Is it really worth sitting through all these episodes?" It can be hard enough for some to justify just watching a long series, but when it comes to having to buy it in some cases well...

[Andrew Cunningham]

There are series that have the balls to end the moment they catch up with the manga.

I fixed it for you. I had to read that sentence a couple of times, just to figure out what were you trying to say. :nervous:

I should really learn to read my own damn posts.

[ryverstar]

I will concede that my definition of "very small" is off the mark.

My only excuse is that my perception is quite jaded from when I used to read the Adult Swim message boards, back when they were running the first season Inuyasha. The extreme rift between the fans and anti-fans at that time was frightening.

[ryverstar]

Well personally my preference is long running (Shonen) series such as Naruto, Bleach, Yu Yu, Dragonball and so on.

If you can take a liking to the characters and story early on then it makes it all the easier.

Amount of filler is definitely a make-or-break element in longer shows too.

I have not bought my last long running show either. Characters and story are key, but filler is a pretty clear warning sign. Even though I do enjoy Inuyasha, to not only have so much filler . . . but to repeat the same filler later on is mind boggling. Kenshin somewhat threw me shifting from changing from the initial episodic first arc, to the much more clearly defined Kyoto arc, then shifting back into episodic material after the Christian arc. (my apologies for any misnaming/misspelling)

Let me ask this then in comparing the storytelling in Inuyasha and Bleach (for example). Is there much of a distinction between episodic filler (Inuyasha) and the filler of stretching out a story and just not getting to the point? After seeing Bleach on AS up to now, around ep. 37 I think, the current arc is coming across to me like a taffy-pull. The story is progressing but at a snail's pace. Inuyasha filler was frequently not tied to much (if anything) in the main storyline. Are there different types of filler or is it just a matter of individual taste, perception, and/or tolerance?

[HitokiriShadow]

The soul society arc has a lot of fighting dragging it out but it actually has a nice little story in the background and it works out pretty well once they get the big stretch of fights out of the way and starts focusing more on the what's going on in Soul Society. There is still more fighting, of course, but the last few will probably feel like less of a drag/stretch/whatever.

As for Bleach's filler, well, there are several types. First, during the Soul Society arc they extend several flashbacks and it works fine. You'd never know they added stuff in until you read the manga. There are also two episodes that show several characters becoming a superhero team for Don Kanonji back in the real world. It sounds stupid (and it kind of is) but they are rather amusing.

Second, there is a lengthy filler arc after the Soul Society arc. It is a single 43 (I think) episode arc, making it nearly as long as the Soul Society arc. It would have been a decent arc (for filler) except they stretched it out way too long and the production values took a big hit. What would have been a decent story for 15-20 episodes became a dull story over 40+ episodes. It's biggest offense, however, is leaving a couple of annoying characters created for that arc in the show and using them to kill time during the next real story arc.

The next manga-based story arc lasts only 20 episodes before it cuts to more filler. While this arc is mostly fine (assuming you like fighting and some of the characters involved), the first few episodes suffer from the shoddy art from the filler arc (which may well be fixed for the DVD and, presumeably, AS releases) and suffers from some annoying things used to use up time. Like watching a particular character stuff their face (looping 4-5 seconds of animation) for nearly a full minute, and lousy 'comedy' scenes involving the aforementioned filler characters. Even worse, on two occasions, they stick the filler characters into the actual story briefly.

After just under 20 manga based episodes, new filler has started at episode 128. The first was a really crappy 4 episode arc. The first episode of it nearly put me to sleep and the art, once again, looked like crap. Various elements of the actual story of it were also dumb and boring. Now they seem to be doing character based single-episode stories, starting with the most recent episode. I like this idea and I actually liked the last episode, which involved Karin.

The good news is that there is a variety of types of filler. The bad news is that only a few episodes of them are actually good. At least if you are watching on AS, you won't need to worry about paying for them.

[zaldar]

but there all crazy though...as you can see by the ratings here for these shows, they generally all stink. I mean DBZ and Inuyasha....ug what crap they make anime look bad.

[something]

but there all crazy though...as you can see by the ratings here for these shows, they generally all stink. I mean DBZ and Inuyasha....ug what crap they make anime look bad.
Surely you can understand that what you said is completely subjective, right? Whether or not you think they make anime "look bad", those two shows have probably done more to keep anime alive in R1 than almost any other shows.

[PhilipReuben]

but there all crazy though

Yes, anyone whose opinion differs from yours is clearly insane :roll:

[ryverstar]

The thing that keeps throwing me for loop is the seeming disconnect between the ratings a show may have (either official or open poll ratings) & the opinions given in whatever format you can think of. I have enough common sense to know that a show is not going to go 100, 150, or 200+ episodes without someone watching it. I know I will not be sent to some dark, cold corner of Siberia just because I have the Inuyasha Season 4 box set on preorder to go with sets 1, 2, & 3 (I confess that I do).

Am I confusing those fans who mainly get their anime from on air shows on CN, AS, Sci-Fi, Encore, etc. vs. those fans who have really taken the plunge and explored the overall genre that we love so well?

[something]

Am I confusing those fans who mainly get their anime from on air shows on CN, AS, Sci-Fi, Encore, etc. vs. those fans who have really taken the plunge and explored the overall genre that we love so well?
Those of us that get really deeply involved in the hobby and watch many different shows from all over the anime map are a small number, relatively. Some shows can be mssively popular with us, and do well, but there's a limit to how far 'hardcore' fandom can take a show.

For series that reach the sales and popularity of DBZ or Pokemon or InuYasha or the Ghibli stuff, by definition they need to embrace a much wider audience. Sheer numbers come into play here. What they need is both 'hardcore' fan support and a much wider, somewhat more mainstream profile with the so-called 'casual' fans.

So, many fans who are seriously into the hobby on a much deeper level of immersion can also love those long running shows. I for example am a fan of Naruto and Bleach, though both were licensed (and hence I stopped watching) right before their respective filler arcs really started in earnest. But yes, the more casual TV crowd will play a much larger role in InuYasha's fandom and success than in, say... My~HiME's fandom and success. And the relative concepts of success are very different for the two. (Note: I'm making a blind guess that HiME did well, if not, substitute any one of a number of other relevant shows.)

Yes, you probably see a lot of trashing of things like Naruto or DBZ on various forums and such, but that's because the more popular a show is, the more vocal the opposition is. They go hand in hand.

[mandisaw]

I have enough common sense to know that a show is not going to go 100, 150, or 200+ episodes without someone watching it.
...
Am I confusing those fans who mainly get their anime from on air shows on CN, AS, Sci-Fi, Encore, etc. vs. those fans who have really taken the plunge and explored the overall genre that we love so well?
For the first, while the longer-running shows have more opportunities to get fans, they also have more opportunities to get detractors/haters. While people are generally indifferent to shows they've never seen (or heard of), people generally do form an opinion (good or bad) about the more popular shows. That holds for everything, books, movies, regular TV shows, philosophies, whatever.

For the second, there's a peculiar time-shift that forms between a show's original broadcast run (or fansub distribution) and that show's US TV run (and/or DVD distribution). You'll have fans who are 50-100+ episodes ahead of their US TV-watching counterparts, and might be basing their opinion on what the show's like *now* as opposed to what the show was like *then*. What might've been thrilling in the first arc isn't cool anymore when you've seen it for the third or fourth time.

Plus, I personally think that anime frequent-buyers tend to be much more particular and vocal in their habits than anime TV-watchers. It could be the usual fan-clique behavior, or it could be that you keep stricter standards when your wallet's riding on your choices.

[Chloe]

The other thing about really long running series is the frequency of personnel change in the cast/crew. Which can have a very big impact, just look at UY, and how even though it stays very episodic, you can get a pretty good idea when some things changed.

The really episodic shows can still do well(Lupin III is a good example), but I guess after a certain point you will winnow out the casual fans. Either you really like the cast/formula, or you don't.

Oh, and I think the OP messed up a bit including MI in his original list. It was big yes, but that show mostly stuck to arcs, and definitely reached an end point. It was pretty consistant throughout too. You had some filler episodes, but no real filler arcs. Which is where I think the Narutos and Bleaches go wrong; just TOO MUCH filler at a time. Filler alone is not neccesarily a bad thing; where would all the obligatory Hot Spring episodes go? :virgin:

[Nigayomogi]

This raises an interesting question as a sort of sideline to yours re the relative popularities of arc vs. episodic anime. Some of the most popular, longest-running anime in Japan are purely episodic with little to no growth in the characters and no tightly defined storyline.

What comes immediately to mind for me is Detective Conan or "Case Closed." It doesn't seem as if anything, but episodic mysteries take place in that series. Unfathomably, it's still quite popular....

Detective Conan develops the shrink drug/crime syndicate plot. It's a very minor element in the scheme of things, with hints and minor developments scattered amongst the usual mysteries, and major developments only occurring every year or two of real world time, but it is there. There're other bits of continuity developed as the series progresses, too, though some of that is lost or made senseless in the anime adaptation due to rewrites and a shuffled story order.

The anime went out of its way to be even more episodic than the manga in the first few years, even rewriting a couple of canon stories to remove developments in the drug/syndicate plot. The self-contained storylines probably kept the show accessible to casual viewers, who, apart from missing one part of a two or three episode storyline, wouldn't feel lost in the series if they missed episodes now and then. It was quite successful at delivering a large casual audience, too, though its ratings have fallen off quite a bit in recent years.

American anime enthusiasts are clearly not a target audience of the show… Given the way Conan was blackballed in the U.S., we'll never know if it could garner the casual audience here. It has been and is still successful in places like Italy, Germany and Spain, so it's certainly not a show with an appeal peculiar to Japanese culture… My guess would be that the anime enthusiast audience is simply too influential in deciding what is pushed (ETA: and how it is pushed) {in} the U.S.

[something]

My guess would be that the anime enthusiast audience is simply too influential in deciding what is pushed (ETA: and how it is pushed) {in} the U.S.
I think you'll need to define "anime enthusiast" then, because the most popular and profitable shows here are the more mainstream-accessible Cartoon Network shows, especially the long running shounen shows like Naruto and Bleach and the like, along with other favorites like Evangelion, Ghost in the Shell, and Bebop.

[Nigayomogi]

My guess would be that the anime enthusiast audience is simply too influential in deciding what is pushed (ETA: and how it is pushed) {in} the U.S.
I think you'll need to define "anime enthusiast" then, because the most popular and profitable shows here are the more mainstream-accessible Cartoon Network shows, especially the long running shounen shows like Naruto and Bleach and the like, along with other favorites like Evangelion, Ghost in the Shell, and Bebop.

Naruto and Bleach were and are heavily pushed at the cons and through elite anime fan sites (via fansubs and the like). My theory is that an anime needs pre-established elite fan support to even get the chance for mainstream commercial success in the U.S. {ETA: nowadays, after the 4Kids/Pokemon era), while they can still bypass the otaku filter and find their natural mainstream audience on their own in Europe.

[something]

Naruto and Bleach were and are heavily pushed at the cons and through elite anime fan sites (via fansubs and the like). My theory is that an anime needs pre-established elite fan support to even get the chance for mainstream commercial success in the U.S. {ETA: nowadays, after the 4Kids/Pokemon era), while they can still bypass the otaku filter and find their natural mainstream audience on their own in Europe.
I agree that pre-license buzz and support is important for many shows, but it's most important for shows that aren't going to be those huge mainstream hits. Most sales in the US, if any of the R1 companies are to be believed, come from casual shoppers hitting up B&Ms and buying on impulse, or based off what they saw on Cartoon Network. Thus the best selling shows tend to be those that aired on TV.

Naruto and Bleach and GitS:SAC and Full Metal Alchemist would have been wild successes regardless of pre-license push. Something based off of a popular (in the US) videogame also is pretty set for success (I imagine Devil May Cry will sell rather well). But something like Haruhi or Azumanga? Not so much.

So no, I don't think the market is so 'hardcore' driven in America as you might think (or as I might like). The only shows that become huge success stories are the shows that reach out to and capture the mainstream. I mean, DBZ is *still* one of if not the best selling titles, cropped and all, with its newest rererererelease. Why? Mainstream appeal.

[StudioZEL]

Seeing as how some of the most wildly successful anime ever are far longer than 55 episodes, I have to question your concept of "very small".

Like it or not, filler or not, Bleach and Naruto and Precure and One Piece have, and probably always will, pull in better ratings in Japan than most shows. Not to mention 'family favorites' like Sazae-san or Doraemon where 55 episodes is a rounding error.

Let's not forget Detective Conan, (my favorite show) is currently up to 478-ish episodes. o.o

EDIT: already beat.

[mandisaw]

Naruto and Bleach were and are heavily pushed at the cons and through elite anime fan sites (via fansubs and the like). My theory is that an anime needs pre-established elite fan support to even get the chance for mainstream commercial success in the U.S. {ETA: nowadays, after the 4Kids/Pokemon era), while they can still bypass the otaku filter and find their natural mainstream audience on their own in Europe.
... Thus the best selling shows tend to be those that aired on TV.

Naruto and Bleach and GitS:SAC and Full Metal Alchemist would have been wild successes regardless of pre-license push. Something based off of a popular (in the US) videogame also is pretty set for success (I imagine Devil May Cry will sell rather well). But something like Haruhi or Azumanga? Not so much.
Now this makes for an interesting wrinkle in the discussion. It seems obvious that any series that gets TV exposure will likely be more popular than its DVD-only counterparts. But what determines the popularity of shows-on-TV relative to each other? Is it some inherent quality of the series, or is it dependent on the pre-TV fanbase?

There are DBZ/Inuyasha/Bleach/Naruto-level series that are well-known and hugely popular among fans even before making it big on US TV. But there're also shows that weren't as popular at the time they started on US TV (e.g. .hack/FMA/YYH/Gundam-foo/SMoon?). Some of the latter shows make it big anyway but others don't, so how much influence does advance-knowledge have versus inherent series-goodness?

[ryverstar]

Naruto and Bleach were and are heavily pushed at the cons and through elite anime fan sites (via fansubs and the like). My theory is that an anime needs pre-established elite fan support to even get the chance for mainstream commercial success in the U.S. {ETA: nowadays, after the 4Kids/Pokemon era), while they can still bypass the otaku filter and find their natural mainstream audience on their own in Europe.
... Thus the best selling shows tend to be those that aired on TV.

Naruto and Bleach and GitS:SAC and Full Metal Alchemist would have been wild successes regardless of pre-license push. Something based off of a popular (in the US) videogame also is pretty set for success (I imagine Devil May Cry will sell rather well). But something like Haruhi or Azumanga? Not so much.
Now this makes for an interesting wrinkle in the discussion. It seems obvious that any series that gets TV exposure will likely be more popular than its DVD-only counterparts. But what determines the popularity of shows-on-TV relative to each other? Is it some inherent quality of the series, or is it dependent on the pre-TV fanbase?

There are DBZ/Inuyasha/Bleach/Naruto-level series that are well-known and hugely popular among fans even before making it big on US TV. But there're also shows that weren't as popular at the time they started on US TV (e.g. .hack/FMA/YYH/Gundam-foo/SMoon?). Some of the latter shows make it big anyway but others don't, so how much influence does advance-knowledge have versus inherent series-goodness?

I believe this would be a bit of both. The pre-TV (or pre-release) fanbase could do a lot to keep a title close to (if not in) the mainstream eye where it could be noticed. The relative quality of a title would help attract viewers on its own. It would be at that point a question of how much time do these two factors give a series to catch on and stay where it can be noticed by even more people.

For shows that make it to TV there is also a matter of the network itself, but there is no accounting for their whims. How much time would a network give to a show to generate viewers? How would a network want to edit a show? A schedule reshuffle might have nothing to do with a program itself but still move it out of a stronger time slot to a much weaker one for the audience it is looking for.