Bandai Visual USA New Title Solicitations (Sep 07)

[Chris Beveridge]

Bandai Visual USA New Title Solicitations (10:46 PM EDT): Let the festivities begin in breaking down the reality of this situation for people on all three sides of the formats involved:

Wings of Honneamise (BD+DVD Combo) - 120 minutes - $79.99 - 09/11/2007
Wings of Honneamise (HD DVD+DVD Combo) - 120 minutes - $79.99 - 09/11/2007

[JeffDM]

Oh dear. I know it's HD and I know it's more likely than not to get Japanese pressing and encoding quality, that's still hard to take. Even when splitting it with a friend, that's a tough proposition.

[Rhodes]

sorry will wait till the re-release this one day when its on a single format... i refuse to buy a combo disc/package.

[leongsh]

Bah! No standalone DVD release then. I'm not paying for HD content that I cannot play since I do not have either a Blu-Ray player or a HD-DVD player. Buying one or the other is like voting for one format over the other when I do not have either player. So, sit and wait I will.

[Kaikou]

Bah! No standalone DVD release then. I'm not paying for HD content that I cannot play since I do not have either a Blu-Ray player or a HD-DVD player. Buying one or the other is like voting for one format over the other when I do not have either player. So, sit and wait I will.


I'll rent it via Netflix, as I've been doing with all US Blu-ray releases.

If it doesn't end up on Netflix, I'll probably make a purchase. I had already planned on getting the Japanese release, which I think is ~$99.99. (someone correct me if I'm wrong)

[Rydsen]

Score. I'll def be getting one or the other. I'll just wait to see which is the better copy visually since they both have the same audio tracks and most likely features (if any) as well. Choosing between formats isn't an issue for me. It just comes down to which title is better on what format and that's what I buy. And I can't wait for this to finally come back stateside! I wasn't looking forward to importing, though I'd already said I would if it was the only way. Here's to hoping that now since they've announced the US release WoH, hopefully more HD releases will follow soon. :D

[gryffinseye]

Even if I had a BD player (which I don't), way too rich for my blood. I could get up to two whole series in re-release box sets or thinpaks at that price (after discounts).

[ZenAmako]

I'll probably bite, but only because it's Honneamise, and only because I sold my R2 DVD a while ago in anticipation of a R1 release. Online discounts should make it worth waiting for the domestic release. The only question will be which version to buy.

[gryffinseye]

I'll probably bite, but only because it's Honneamise, and only because I sold my R2 DVD a while ago in anticipation of a R1 release. Online discounts should make it worth waiting for the domestic release. The only question will be which version to buy.


If you're prepared to go R4, Madman Australia are releasing Honneamise on DVD-only from the HD masters. Even importing it, I imagine will be considerably cheaper than the BV release. The downsides would be PAL format and the need for a region-free DVD player (though if you have R2 DVDs I doubt that is a problem)

[Skywise]

I'll probably bite, but only because it's Honneamise, and only because I sold my R2 DVD a while ago in anticipation of a R1 release. Online discounts should make it worth waiting for the domestic release. The only question will be which version to buy.


Specs will be the same for both so all it depends on is which player you prefer - or which format you want to support. The cheap Toshiba players for instance don't support 1080P output if you have a TV with that resolution, leaving you to rely on the TV's cadence detection and deinterlacing. This can be a pain with subtitles since they'll usually comb as a result.

[Chris Beveridge]

Actually, they're not entirely the same.

The HD DVD is in VC-1 and the Blu-ray is in AVC.
So we're getting separate encodes that should be optimized for each format.

[Skywise]

Actually, they're not entirely the same.

The HD DVD is in VC-1 and the Blu-ray is in AVC.
So we're getting separate encodes that should be optimized for each format.

Oops I forgot about that. Go Blu then - higher bitrate :).

[leongsh]

If you're prepared to go R4, Madman Australia are releasing Honneamise on DVD-only from the HD masters.
R4 then it is for me. PAL is the standard format in Malaysia, my TV handles NTSC/PAL/SECAM and my DVD player is region free and handles NTSC/PAL.

Hello, EzyDVD (http://www.ezydvd.com.au/).

[naiera]

I'll probably get this one day. Freedom is a bit much if the show doesn't appeal to me, while Wings Of Honneamise is a more proven property, and should be great on a projector that accepts 24 fps.

[whitefox]

I'll get this probably since I do have a PS3 and the price will still be cheaper than what I originally paid for my WOH Laserdisc box years ago (around $140). To have this, hopefully, remastered on Blu-Ray will be worth it after the years of choosing between laserdisc without subs or the awful Manga Video version.

[LOUiE]

I'll probably get this one day. Freedom is a bit much if the show doesn't appeal to me, while Wings Of Honneamise is a more proven property, and should be great on a projector that accepts 24 fps.
I feel the same way, I want this and Freedom, but not at these prices. If Freedom ever comes to bluray, I hope they release it in less volumes and I hope that Honneamise gets released without the dvd later for cheaper. Then I'll buy these things I think.

[ZenAmako]

Oops I forgot about that. Go Blu then - higher bitrate :).

I'm leaning towards the Blu-ray version. The formats look about the same on my current display (1080i), but if I get a new one sometime down the road, I'll be glad to have a 1080p version. Of course, I may also eventually upgrade my HD DVD player (especially the way prices keep dropping). Either way, it'll be nice to have the movie in HD.

Fortunately, I did get around $60 for my R2 DVD on eBay. You'd think that might cushion the blow somewhat, but it still feels like a lot of money.

[Rydsen]

Actually, they're not entirely the same.

The HD DVD is in VC-1 and the Blu-ray is in AVC.
So we're getting separate encodes that should be optimized for each format.

Oops I forgot about that. Go Blu then - higher bitrate :).

Is the bitrate that much higher between AVC and VC-1 to make a visually discernible difference? (woah, say that five times fast!)

[inu-liger]

Unfortunately, 2nd-Gen Toshiba HD DVD players will have 1080p24 output capability included in a firmware update coming within the next few months:

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Toshiba/Hardware/Firmware_Upgrades/Toshiba_to_Add_24p_Output_to_2nd-Gen_HD_DVD_Players/742

[xstylus]

Bandai Visual USA New Title Solicitations (10:46 PM EDT): Let the festivities begin in breaking down the reality of this situation for people on all three sides of the formats involved:

Wings of Honneamise (BD+DVD Combo) - 120 minutes - $79.99 - 09/11/2007
Wings of Honneamise (HD DVD+DVD Combo) - 120 minutes - $79.99 - 09/11/2007

This is the only title BV has that I have any desire to get, but not at an MSRP that's about $40 overpriced, and the fact that Geneon is serving as BV's distributor all but assures that discounts will be few and far between. I'll consider picking it up if I ever find it for around $17.01, which will probably be never.

This is probably the first time I've ever considered doing a rent-and-rip, and the sad part is I'd probably feel proud of doing it in this case.

[Skywise]

Unfortunately, 2nd-Gen Toshiba HD DVD players will have 1080p24 output capability included in a firmware update coming within the next few months:

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Toshiba/Hardware/Firmware_Upgrades/Toshiba_to_Add_24p_Output_to_2nd-Gen_HD_DVD_Players/742

That's only for their more expensive players. If you have the A2 you're SOL.

[Skywise]

Is the bitrate that much higher between AVC and VC-1 to make a visually discernible difference? (woah, say that five times fast!)

Blu-ray has a max bitrate of 48mbps for audio and video, with 8 of that reserved for audio, and thus 40 for video. HD-DVD has a max SHARED bitrate of 30mbps, so any audio tracks will start eating up the video bandwidth.

[Rydsen]

Ah, ok. So it's not really the codecs that make the difference but simply the available space on the discs themselves. Gotcha. What's sad is I probably knew that but totally forgot. :roll:

Now the audio is listed as Japanese Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and Japanese Linear PCM Dolby Surround. Is the PCM track 5.1 as well? I don't recall seeing any HD-DVDs with Linear PCM tracks. More and more are coming with Dolby TrueHD but it's usually just Dolby Digital+ and that's it. I've always seen uncompressed PCM tracks listed on BDs but not on HD-DVDs. Is this a first?

[Skywise]

Not just space - it's space and bandwidth. The numbers I quoted earlier are bandwidth/max bitrate. If your content is long enough that it needs more space than is available on the disc that will affect the average bitrate. A dual layer BD can hold 138 minutes of content before the average bitrate will be affected. Likewise the number for dual layer HD-DVD is 133 minutes. Unfortunately for HD-DVD their max bitrate is already 10mbps lower than for BD, and that's before you start adding audio tracks which will drop it even lower.

To simplify, the BD version of WoH will have a bitrate of 40mbps for video, while the HD-DVD version will have only 26mbps. That's what 20GB of more space and faster data transfer rate buys you.


For those wanting more comparative numbers in general, for LOTR FotR extended edition (208 minutes) BD will be able to get 30mbps for video, while on HD DVD it would get 17mbps, assuming one TrueHD audio track and nothing else on the disc. To get an idea of how much of a squeeze this is - 1080P is 6 times the resolution/image data of SD. Both formats will use variable bit rates which can boost the bitrates temporarily, but with the space limitations they'll actually have to drop far lower in sections in order to have space for everything which can affect the final results. This is a much bigger problem for HD-DVD than for BD since BD has so much more space and bandwidth to begin with. Even if you used 2 HD-DVDs for it you wouldn't be able to get the same bandwidth, just very close to it.

[inu-liger]

Unfortunately, 2nd-Gen Toshiba HD DVD players will have 1080p24 output capability included in a firmware update coming within the next few months:

http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Toshiba/Hardware/Firmware_Upgrades/Toshiba_to_Add_24p_Output_to_2nd-Gen_HD_DVD_Players/742

That's only for their more expensive players. If you have the A2 you're SOL.

Oops. I stand corrected :sd:

[Maxflier]

For those wanting more comparative numbers in general, for LOTR FotR extended edition (208 minutes) BD will be able to get 30mbps for video, while on HD DVD it would get 17mbps, assuming one TrueHD audio track and nothing else on the disc. To get an idea of how much of a squeeze this is - 1080P is 6 times the resolution/image data of SD. Both formats will use variable bit rates which can boost the bitrates temporarily, but with the space limitations they'll actually have to drop far lower in sections in order to have space for everything which can affect the final results. This is a much bigger problem for HD-DVD than for BD since BD has so much more space and bandwidth to begin with. Even if you used 2 HD-DVDs for it you wouldn't be able to get the same bandwidth, just very close to it.

And at the end of the day the Blu-Ray and HD DVD versions will look and sound pretty much identical.

Unfortunately, 2nd-Gen Toshiba HD DVD players will have 1080p24 output capability included in a firmware update coming within the next few months:


Why is that unfortunate?

[Rhodes]

for some folks that will always be the case...

some folks cant tell the difference between audio files encoded at different rates either, while some can.

at the end of the day you can just settle for a upconverting dvd player and skip all the HD stuff, if you want to and save oodles of $.

[LOUiE]

for some folks that will always be the case...

some folks cant tell the difference between audio files encoded at different rates either, while some can.

at the end of the day you can just settle for a upconverting dvd player and skip all the HD stuff, if you want to and save oodles of $.
Not in this case. Either way, you are spending the same amount on this release whether you want the HD DVD release, the Bluray release, or the regular DVD release. :sd:

[Maxflier]

some folks cant tell the difference between audio files encoded at different rates either, while some can.


Very true. But what I was getting at is that I fully expect that unbiased reviewers (whose job is to see the differences) will not see any signifigant difference between the 2 versions if/when they are ever released.
We'll see in due time, if New Line ever gets their butts into gear.

[LOUiE]

some folks cant tell the difference between audio files encoded at different rates either, while some can.


Very true. But what I was getting at is that I fully expect that unbiased reviewers (whose job is to see the differences) will not see any signifigant difference between the 2 versions if/when they are ever released.
We'll see in due time, if New Line ever gets their butts into gear.

Of course, nothing will come until at least 2008 since they have said they will only release HD movies if either there is only one format or on Warner's THD hybrid disc if it ever releases. Word right now is it is delayed until 08.

[Skywise]

Sound yes, look no. We know it takes more hand tuning to get HD DVD encodes to work, and we also know what happens when they don't. There's also way too little bandwidth to work with to begin with in this case. We're talking about lossy encoding, not magic.

[Maxflier]

Like I said, we'll see what the unbiased people have to say when/if the time comes.
To tell you the truth, I find it sad and pathetic that someone in your postition goes out of your way to put down HD DVD and pretend that it isn't a viable format to try and sway your readers to the format you are aligned with. It seems like every post you make in the HD section you take a shot at HD DVD. A perfect example being when someone started a thread about Blu-Ray disc rot, you for some reason had to keep mentioning the HD DVD combo problems that some people have experienced.

[Skywise]

It seems like every post you make in the HD section you take a shot at HD DVD. A perfect example being when someone started a thread about Blu-Ray disc rot, you for some reason had to keep mentioning the HD DVD combo problems that some people have experienced.


Actually that was to balance what I perceived as a rather one-sided slant on the new formats from bloggers and media. The HD DVD problems had never been posted here so people didn't know about it, and I didn't see a need to post about it either until someone linked the BD stamping issue. I could easily have posted a "news" post when those problems came up for HD DVD, but I didn't as I know it's a manufacturing issue and I don't like spreading FUD. You'll notice I even mentioned DVDs, not just BD and HD DVD. If you think my posts in that thread was taking a shot at HD DVD then you have issues.

[naiera]

And at the end of the day the Blu-Ray and HD DVD versions will look and sound pretty much identical.


Except the Blu-ray release will be the extended cuts and the HD DVD release won't.

[Maxflier]

Except the Blu-ray release will be the extended cuts and the HD DVD release won't.

Link?

[ataru moroboshi]

And at the end of the day the Blu-Ray and HD DVD versions will look and sound pretty much identical.


Except the Blu-ray release will be the extended cuts and the HD DVD release won't.

Nice piece of trolling, but sadly for you, untrue. New Line have said little about LOTR on HD so far, other than to say on both formats (via TotalHD) they would be the theatrical cuts.

Hardly surprising given how tempting it must be to screw over cash rich early adopters.

[naiera]

That post was by no means trolling. I thought it was pretty much common knowledge by now. I can't provide a link because I can't remember where I first learned of this fact.

[JeffDM]

That post was by no means trolling. I thought it was pretty much common knowledge by now. I can't provide a link because I can't remember where I first learned of this fact.

The best I can find is here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=825463&page=1&pp=30

I cannot find a press release or corroboration from NewLine or Time Warner's web sites.
At the moment, it's still an unconfirmed rumor as far as I can tell. It's been four months and only four months to go, if it was true, it would seem like it would have been confirmed by now.

[Maxflier]

LMFAO that was posted by Beatboy, you gotta be kidding me if you take anything that guy posts seriously. I don't know how active you are on AVS, but the guy is notorious for posting bogus rumors.
That's part of my main problem with Blu-Ray, how they have guys like him to spread false info to try to lure people who believe anything they read on the internet off the fence to their side.

[naiera]

Sounds to me like your problem lies with the Interweb itself and not Blu-ray.

[JeffDM]

LMFAO that was posted by Beatboy, you gotta be kidding me if you take anything that guy posts seriously. I don't know how active you are on AVS, but the guy is notorious for posting bogus rumors.

I almost don't go to AVS, though I've been there a few times this week, and as part of my pre-purchase research on the projector that I bought last month. That story was linked from a blog post I found via Google. I was trying to verify the story and just didn't get anywhere, which is why I wrote the disclaimer. I've gotten into the habit of following some stories as far as I can because of similar things that have happened elsewhere.

[leongsh]

Sounds to me like your problem lies with the Interweb itself and not Blu-ray.
That's real cute. You read a rumour, then state it here as fact, i.e. virtually propagating a rumour, declare that you do not recall where you read it when challenged and you now accuse him of having a problem with the interweb when he called you on it?

Your credibility cheque just bounced.

[hikaru004]

Sounds to me like your problem lies with the Interweb itself and not Blu-ray.
That's real cute. You read a rumour, then state it here as fact, i.e. virtually propagating a rumour, declare that you do not recall where you read it when challenged and you now accuse him of having a problem with the interweb when he called you on it?

Your credibility cheque just bounced.


Be nice leongsh. :) Digging in that thread produced a potential source of the rumor (http://hd-insider.com/2007/01/17/lord-of-the-rings-hd-dvdbluray-details-trickling-out.aspx) on the last page which was a blog report and not an official press release. :D

[leongsh]

Be nice leongsh. :) Digging in that thread produced a potential source of the rumor (http://hd-insider.com/2007/01/17/lord-of-the-rings-hd-dvdbluray-details-trickling-out.aspx) on the last page which was a blog report and not an official press release. :D
I'm being nice here. A mea culpa would have ended it but he didn't and then putting that statement as though Maxflier is at fault and not him. That takes real cheek.

In any case, let's all wait for the official news/release. There's too much posturing by both camps going around and no real resolution in sight.

[naiera]

That's real cute. You read a rumour, then state it here as fact, i.e. virtually propagating a rumour, declare that you do not recall where you read it when challenged and you now accuse him of having a problem with the interweb when he called you on it?

Your credibility cheque just bounced.


As far as I remember it was stated as fact. A while ago. I had no ill intentions with mentioning it in this thread. I own players for both formats and don't really have an interest in starting a fanboy war here. I did not accuse him of having a problem with the Interweb because he called me on it, I merely mentioned it because he feels has a general problem with Blu-ray because it seems he's used to fanbois spreading lies on purpose. If you read the context I think it should be obvious that Maxflier isn't referring to me, but the guy on AVS.

I really don't see how my credibility should have taken a big hit here. I'll admit that the extended LOTR thing is probably not true now that so many other voices have been heard on the matter, but outside of that I think you should just try and relax a bit with the Interweb-venom.

[naiera]

A mea culpa would have ended it but he didn't and then putting that statement as though Maxflier is at fault and not him. That takes real cheek.


It's obvious that you didn't understand the meaning of my reply. I did not blame Maxflier for anything I said, I just mentioned that maybe he should direct some of the anger he seems to have towards Blu-ray towards the Internet instead, because it seems to me that he's angry with Blu-ray because of something that happens on the Internet all the time, which is people, such as the guy on AVS, spreading rumours he feels are malicious. I'm sure you could find evil rumour-spreaders on the side of HD DVD and any other side on the Internet as well.

I'm sorry if I caused any heads to explode here. I was by no means trying to be evil or cheeky with anything I wrote in this thread. Going by how Maxflier sees the things being written about Blu-ray on the Internet, my reply was actually rather seriously meant; I seriously feel he should try and redirect some of the anger a bit, because it's something that's inherent to the Internet in general, and not just Blu-ray and its 'fanbase'.

[Rydsen]

Now the audio on both the BD and the HD-DVD is listed as Japanese Dolby TrueHD 5.1 and Japanese Linear PCM Dolby Surround. Is the PCM track 5.1 as well? I don't recall seeing any HD-DVDs with Linear PCM tracks. More and more are coming with Dolby TrueHD but it's usually just Dolby Digital+ and that's it. I've always seen uncompressed PCM tracks listed on BDs but not on HD-DVDs. Is this a first?

Just wanted to bump my question up since it kinda got lost on the previous page. :sd:

And on a secondary note, I picked up a PS3 this past Saturday (yay, go me) so now I have a player for each format. I just want to watch HD movies, no matter what format it comes on.

[Skywise]

Linear PCM Dolby Surround = 2.0 stereo, sorry. However I believe the PS3 can now convert TrueHD to PCM, so if you have a receiver with a HDMI input you can get the full benefit.

[Chris Beveridge]

PS3 does indeed do TrueHD via HDMI. I caught Ghost Rider in that last week.

[LOUiE]

PS3 does indeed do TrueHD via HDMI. I caught Ghost Rider in that last week.
No I beleive what Skywise was referring to is that the PS3 can convert a TrueHD audio stream into a PCM stream so that receivers which cannot process TrueHD can still have the benefit of the surround sound.

[Chris Beveridge]

Right, but it can only do it via HDMI, not bitstream. It's doing the decoding in the player as opposed to the receiver. Some people prefer one, others another. As long as one piece of gear is decoding (and decoding it well) before it hits my speakers, all is good.

[Rydsen]

I do in fact have my PS3 hooked up to my Yamaha HTR-5990 via HDMI. I bought Layer Cake on BD yesterday to test it out. I know there are better BD releases out there but I wanted a movie I hadn't seen yet. I'll get the others in a bit. ;)

I really like how you can press Select and have the data info pop up showing you both the Audio and Video data and streams currently in use.

So let me get this straight. The PS3 will take a Dolby TrueHD track, decode it internally and convert it to a multichannel PCM track and then send it to my receiver. So even though my receiver can't decode Dolby TrueHD itself, it'll still get an uncompressed audio signal for me to enjoy. Sweet! That was one of the things I was worried about because I can listen to Dolby TrueHD audio through my HD DVD player through my computer feeding multichannel to my receiver but was concerned that unless a BD movie had an uncompressed PCM track I'd have to suffice for the DD+ track. That changes a lot of things for how I'll weigh my movie buying options in the future. Even though I guess it's the same either way. PCM via HDMI = PCM via 6 RCA cables.

Now can the PS3 decode the DTS HD Master Audio tracks as well or am I really SOL on that one?

[Skywise]

Now can the PS3 decode the DTS HD Master Audio tracks as well or am I really SOL on that one?

Everyone is. There's no players out there yet that can decode it or pass it through over HDMI to a receiver yet (aside from software players on a PC). You can still play back the DTS core in it though, so even if you're not getting lossless you should still be able play back a full bitrate legacy DTS track (1.5mbps). The PS3 *might* be able to support it in the future, but it depends on how Sony budgets the processing power since they'll want to leave some for handling the upcoming 1.1 spec which adds HD PiP.

[Maxflier]

Just spotted this bumped thread over at AVS, which was started back in Jan., with info reportedly taken from HD-Insider stating that both HD DVD and Blu-Ray releases will be the theatrical versions.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789720

Take it with a grain of salt like most stuff from posters on AVS because there was no link or anything provided.

And on a side note: New Line finally announced it's first Hi-Def release for HD DVD and Blu-Ray which will be Hairspray.
http://www.videobusiness.com/blog/1730000173/post/1840011984.html

[JeffDM]

Just spotted this bumped thread over at AVS, which was started back in Jan., with info reportedly taken from HD-Insider stating that both HD DVD and Blu-Ray releases will be the theatrical versions.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=789720

Take it with a grain of salt like most stuff from posters on AVS because there was no link or anything provided.

I did find that story on HD-Insider, Link (http://hd-insider.com/2007/01/17/lord-of-the-rings-hd-dvdbluray-details-trickling-out.aspx)

Their only reference is saying that was what was said at a CES presentation.


And on a side note: New Line finally announced it's first Hi-Def release for HD DVD and Blu-Ray which will be Hairspray.

That movie isn't even playing in theaters yet either, so I guess it's a bit of a wait.

I'm not that concerned about LoTR in HD, it is pretty safe to assume that it is coming, it is just a matter of when and the details.

[LOUiE]

I'm not that concerned about LoTR in HD, it is pretty safe to assume that it is coming, it is just a matter of when and the details.
I feel the same way. It's going to come and it'll probably look spectacular on either format. Of course, I'll still wait for the extended editions as I like those better anyways. :)

[ataru moroboshi]

The PS3 *might* be able to support it in the future, but it depends on how Sony budgets the processing power since they'll want to leave some for handling the upcoming 1.1 spec which adds HD PiP.

Have Sony actually confirmed they will be able to support 1.1 on the PS3? And if so, when will they be pushing the update out?

(and for that matter, when will blu-ray discs using PiP be released? I noticed the recent release of 300 was savagely stripped down for BD from the HD DVD version)

[Skywise]

The PS3 *might* be able to support it in the future, but it depends on how Sony budgets the processing power since they'll want to leave some for handling the upcoming 1.1 spec which adds HD PiP.

Have Sony actually confirmed they will be able to support 1.1 on the PS3? And if so, when will they be pushing the update out?


Sony's official position is that they can "neither confirm nor deny," which is in line with how they deal with firmware updates in general. They don't give out details of what's included nor release dates.


(and for that matter, when will blu-ray discs using PiP be released? I noticed the recent release of 300 was savagely stripped down for BD from the HD DVD version)

When more players are out that support it. They could release them now just by following the specification and using beta hardware, but they have a limited set of testing platforms and so can't guarantee that it would work on final hardware.