Haibane Renmei discussion -Entire Series

[zaldar]

I have now seen the entire series

My first impressions are wonderful and I remember why when I saw the first episode I liked this anime so much. I don't usually focus on animation style for anime I either like it or I do not (and it has to be real bad before I don't) but the animation in this anime is just so incredibly gourgeous. The subtle colors of the wings, the sky, the dark colors of the birds (he seems to have something with crows both in this one and in Lain) all of it is just amazing. I have had some people tell me Lain was slow which I don't understand but if lain is slow this is glacial (and I can see why an episode by episode discussion really wouldn't work). It has so many interesting mysterious though! After looking over the booklet I THINK it is some sort of purgatory and I THINK Rakkas dream is from when she killed herself. I am not sure yet though.

It bothered me a little bit that she didn't have more of an emotional response to what was going on. I mean even if I couldn't remember who I was I think I would remember the concept of angels and I would ask if I was dead. I'd also ask if I could fly. Still a very interesting show so far.

One of my favorite parts was in the booklet when he was showing the smock she was wearing in her dream. "Please don't say your not born in clothes" "Take it off" "This is the way of the Haibane, but she is naked in the opening so you can enjoy that" Hilarious! I love how he insults the more shall we say sex obsessed side of anime lovers while at the same time trying to placate them.

In the opening though we see a seed fall to the ground and become what looks like a little plant..is this supposed to be Rakka? I don't know yet.

[Natsume_Maya]

Episode 1
- I like the scene of the faces of the Old Homers as they watch the cocoon as the cracks start to appear. (But how can the liquid pour out the sides of the door? The cocoon isn't that big :P ).
- Various mysteries. If Rakka is born as a teenager, why are there kodomo Haibane? Why is Rakka able to speak and converse upon birth?
- I couldn't tell gender of Kana and Kuu at the start.
- Nice sighs of disappointment as the halo falls off Rakka's head (I'm listening to the Japanese language track).
- The first pressing of the R2 DVD volume 2 came with halo.
- The BGM in this opening episode seems tinged with sadness. But I love the music at the end, "A little plate's Rondo". Sounds like harpischord, mandolin and pipes to me. An unusual arrangement for anime music.
- The scene where Rakka's wings emerge was well animated, though her wings seemed too large.
- The ED animation is a rip off of Evangelion :P

Episode 2
- The OP is well animated, with good matching theme music.
- I have a relizu cel from the OP, Nemu (http://natsumemaya.rubberslug.com/gallery/inv_info.asp?ItemID=140739).

In the opening though we see a seed fall to the ground and become what looks like a little plant..is this supposed to be Rakka? I don't know yet.

Interesting that the opening sequence suggests that the Haibane fall to earth. Rakka's dream also suggests this, but we learn that not all Haibane have this same dream.

- The picture for this show is not very sharp, either on R1 or R2 DVD.
- The older Haibane are named after the dreams they saw in the past (in their cocoons). The kodomo Haibane seem to be named after their dreams for the future.
- The first pressing of the R2 DVD volume 1 came with Haibane notebook (and a nicer box than the R1 box :P ).
- More mysteries. What is outside town? Why are the Toga prohibited from speaking? Is it for past transgressions as the booklet proposes? Or to prevent them talking about the world outside?

[zaldar]

I didn't notice any differences in the quality of the animation in the two episodes but then I don't have the region 2 DVD's. I agree there shouldn't have been enough water to fill the room but maybe enough to have a little run under the door. I mean it didn't have to fill the room up to the top to run out the door. I did find myself wondering though if all the cocoons had water in them, I expect not since they were all looking at it like they were. If that is or is not important I don't know...

I also found myself wondering if they aged as Hababine I mean according to the booklet some of them have been Hababine for seven years so assuming there were some there when they arrived that have now left they should know where they left to I would think.....

[Ty]

PQ drops off noticeably after episode 1. Mostly it just looks very soft. I believe it was a style choice actually, but it's to the point where it appears blurry at times. I found it hard on the eyes sometimes.

[zaldar]

Seen the first four episodes now. Getting a little more interesting with Rakkas dream, and Rekis dream I wonder if they were similar? The clock tower episode was very interesting, I like how she said you can't judge kanna by first glance since she has now gotten to know her and Kanna thought she was mentioning the shop owner.

We also seem to get the first hint that the Habanine do leave, from the shop owner. Why no one has mentioned Habanine that were there before but are now gone don't understand just yet.

The temple was odd....the humor from the "doughnut" pancakes was also hilarious. I'm not sure if it makes scientific sense that the mold being used as a frying pan would make her ring pron to static electricity but still hilarious.

If I hadn't read the first DVD insert where the abandoned factory is mentioned I would be wondering now where all the male Haibane are...

Interesting previews on this DVD as well for other shows. Except for little plum fairy sugar which just looks wrong...

One question does Abe have crows in all his anime? In both lain and this one they make what I think are thematically important appearances.

[Ty]

Abe uses lots and lots of symbolism in his work. Not just crows, but many things. Anybody who isn't willing to think on it will mostly miss the point of his shows. Haibane is easier to figure out than most by the end, but rest assured it doesn't make the revelations any less impactful believe me.

[zaldar]

cool maybe if I can figure out the symboylism of crows in this one I can do so in Lain as well...

[BonifaceVIII]

cool maybe if I can figure out the symboylism of crows in this one I can do so in Lain as well...
Going by personal experience, crows don't serve a major symbolic purpose in Lain at all. There are hardly any crows in Lain whatsoever except for those in the opening.

But don't take my word for it, of course, I've been known for taking anime series extremely literally and at face value.

[Chloe]

cool maybe if I can figure out the symboylism of crows in this one I can do so in Lain as well...
Going by personal experience, crows don't serve a major symbolic purpose in Lain at all. There are hardly any crows in Lain whatsoever except for those in the opening.

But don't take my word for it, of course, I've been known for taking anime series extremely literally and at face value.

Thank god I'm not the only one who thinks that, I was beginning to feel really, really stupid or something... :sd:

[Natsume_Maya]

Episode 3
Seen the first four episodes now. Getting a little more interesting with Rakkas dream, and Rekis dream I wonder if they were similar?

From the first two episodes, we know that Rakka's dream is of falling through the sky, and that Reki's dream is of walking along a pebble-strewn pathway.

The temple was odd....the humor from the "doughnut" pancakes was also hilarious.

This episode and the next have some nice humorous scenes, such as with the doughnut, and the kids eating their carrots.

If I hadn't read the first DVD insert where the abandoned factory is mentioned I would be wondering now where all the male Haibane are...

The R2 DVD release had 5 booklets, one for each DVD. The R1 DVD release had only one insert, for the first DVD. The R1 insert took portions of each of the R2 booklets, so it contains information which wasn't really intended to be revealed until further in the series, such as about the factory, and the fact that some of the Haibane have been around for seven years.

Other thoughts:

- Did Reki really fall out of bed? That bed seems awfully high up.

- I thought the animation in this episode was particularly bad. In a few scenes, the perspective of the animated characters didn't fit with the painted backgrounds. Eg when Rakka is walking down the hallway in Old Home towards Reki's room, and later when Kuu is running down the pathway towards Rakka.

- This show has no eyecatches.

Episode 4
One question does Abe have crows in all his anime? In both lain and this one they make what I think are thematically important appearances.

Are the crows in this show the embodiment of Memory? The Norse god Odin had a crow Munnin/Memory. Kana mentions something about how they're associated with lost things. They are able to fly over the walls of Glie, and so have some connection with the outside world. Rakka sees crows in her dreams, and in Glie, but cannot make sense of them.

Other thoughts:

- More humorous scenes in this scenes. I liked Kana hauling Rakka out of bed by her halo. Reminds me of one of ABe's doujinshi where he drew a Haibane getting out of a subway train. But the train's doors close in front of the halo, leaving the Haibane struggling on outside of the train, with her halo inside the train :P

- The Haibane are allowed to own only second hand items, and to work only at old places. They live in Old Home. Is this because they are living "second hand" lives?

- These two episodes, show a pretty idyllic life. Some mysteries, but nothing really dark or sinister.

[Lain Of The Net]

This episode and the next have some nice humorous scenes, such as with the doughnut, and the kids eating their carrots.


Are the crows in this show the embodiment of Memory? The Norse god Odin had a crow Munnin/Memory. Kana mentions something about how they're associated with lost things. They are able to fly over the walls of Glie, and so have some connection with the outside world. Rakka sees crows in her dreams, and in Glie, but cannot make sense of them.

It's funny ...I thought of Bagels in connection to the Halo mould. Mmmmmmm ...Bagels ...drooling.

I've read somewhere that some in Japan consider them "divine messengers". I also read that Japanese farmers consider crows bad luck. The second one is not a surprise as most farmers I knew did not like them much either. I'm glad in the spring when I start seeing the big birds around. Makes me feel spring is coming. Kind of renewing.

[zaldar]

Episode 3
[quote=zaldar]Seen the first four episodes now. Getting a little more interesting with Rakkas dream, and Rekis dream I wonder if they were similar?

From the first two episodes, we know that Rakka's dream is of falling through the sky, and that Reki's dream is of walking along a pebble-strewn pathway.

Do we know that the dream Reki was having the falling dream again? The dream we saw Rakka have didn't seem to be here falling dream.

For lain of the net, I thought about bagels at first as well but they said they fried them so that then didn't make much sense as I don't think bagels are fried.

Crows as memory is interesting hadn't thought of that, I can' see it as idylicc simply because of the mysterious nature, I would be like Rakka always thinking about where I came from what was over the walls (I probably would have tried to climb over them by now)

[zaldar]

So after a long break I finally got to watch some more of this and boy did I miss it!

The fifth episode was very interesting. We get to see how the librarian is not really lazy, get to learn more about the humans in the town and get a very cute story about the beginings of the world.

This story shows the different characters between Rakka and the librarian very well I think also. The librarian makes the habiani the center of the story (the creations closer to god, his halo becoming the sun) but she can't make herself personally the center of the story (perhaps from some guilt?). Rakka on the other hand makes the habiani a tolerated mistake, something pretty but unimportant, humble.

We get what might, or might not, be some important information but its presented in a way that doesn't interupt the relaxed feeling of the show. We also get hints of problems, though are we supposed to think that none of the old home habibani can go to the abandoned factory or just Rekki? I couldn't understand that completly. (We also get the first hint that the habibani might be able to have children in the more human mode..at least the attraction between males and females doesn't seem to be totally gone).

Then we have the girl with the hat (who until the third episode I though was a boy) saying goodbye to everything..still not completely sure what that is about.

So I was told that the japanese versions had inserts in each case what was on the japanese insert for this one that wasn't on the American one with the first DVD?

[KomoriKiri]

We also get hints of problems, though are we supposed to think that none of the old home habibani can go to the abandoned factory or just Rekki?

Just Reki.

So I was told that the japanese versions had inserts in each case what was on the japanese insert for this one that wasn't on the American one with the first DVD?

Lots of stuff, unfortunately. Each DVD (total of five) in the R2J release had a booklet of about the same size as the one that came with the R1 disc 1. So, about 5 times as much material all together.
A couple pieces from them have been translated, and are available at the Clock Tower section of the Old Home Bulletin Board, but I recommend not reading them until you've seen the entire series (they're from the last booklet).

Wraith
"Where there is a great deal of light, the shadows are deeper"
-- Goethe

[zaldar]

so is it explained why some of the habiani live in the factory rather than old home and why even the others don't seem to go there often?

If you wanted to translate some of the earlier ones (as you seem to know japanese that would be great...;)

[KomoriKiri]

so is it explained why some of the habiani live in the factory rather than old home and why even the others don't seem to go there often?

Some of that is explained in-series, and some in the booklets.

If you wanted to translate some of the earlier ones (as you seem to know japanese that would be great...;)

I didn't translate those segments, one of the forum members did. I don't know anywhere near enough kanji to translate these. If I ever get my butt in gear and learn enough, I do plan to finish the translations, but that certainly won't happen soon.

Wraith
"If it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
-- Lewis Carroll

[Natsume_Maya]

The fifth episode was very interesting. We get to see how the librarian is not really lazy, get to learn more about the humans in the town and get a very cute story about the beginings of the world.

This episode made me think: if Glie is a town for the Haibane, what are the normal people there for?

And why was Nemu reading for little Haibane only? What about normal children? Why do the two groups of people normally keep apart (except for their jobs etc)?

This story shows the different characters between Rakka and the librarian very well I think also. The librarian makes the habiani the center of the story (the creations closer to god, his halo becoming the sun)

IIRC, Nemu was just following the original book for the idea that the halo became the sun.

Rakka on the other hand makes the habiani a tolerated mistake, something pretty but unimportant, humble.

Interesting that we get here the idea of the Haibane as imperfect beings.

So I was told that the japanese versions had inserts in each case what was on the japanese insert for this one that wasn't on the American one with the first DVD?

The US booklet is 14 pages in length (excluding cover and back).

Episode 5 appears on volume 3 of the R2 DVDs, which also contains episodes 6 and 7. The booklet with that DVD is 6 pages in length (excluding cover and back).
The contents of the booklet are:
- description and rough map of Old Home.
- paragraph about the guest room in Old Home.
- paragraph about the Abandoned Factory (just descriptive, no real info).
- paragraph about the dormitory matron whom Reki helps to look after the little Haibane.
- interview with Takada Akira (character designer and chief animation director).
- character profile for Kuu.
- paragraphs about various items in the story, eg the librarians' armbands, Nemu's book, the original book of the Beginning of the World, etc.
- "Haibane Culture School", this time on the topics of recycling and the aesthetics of ruins.

Of all this content, only the Kuu character profile appears in the US booklet. (In the R2 booklet, the character profile takes up one and a half pages. In the US booklet, the profile has been enlarged (but text slightly shortened) to take up two pages). So a bit less than 1.5 of the 6 pages in the Japanese booklet is reproduced in the US booklet.

[zaldar]

Sigh thanks! I hadn't thought about that she was reading only to Haibane children good catch. Sorry I also assumed you could translate the book since you got the R2 dvd ;). Those don't have english subs so I am bad about assuming people who get them can understand Japanese.

It was hard to tell where what they could read left off and what they added. When they were reading the book itself though before the quote "it isn't worth it this book has to many holes" or something like that. I think the part where it was stated it was a halo was left out. I think it was something like "and when above his head........became the sun" The part about the Haibane being created in his image but with darker wings (the other hint God had a halo) was also added. I'll go back and look.

[zaldar]

Ok reviving this topic if I should start another instead let me know, but I just finished the second CD and I HAVE to post. WOW! Next to Lain and Ghost in the Shell this is now my favorite anime, I like this better than Eva and much better than what I have seen of Noein. Spoilers ahead so if you haven't seen it don't read ahead.

[/code]Ok wow the way they killed of Kuu was amazing, and the way it effected Raka was handled very well. We also learn more about the Haibane Renmei and we get more evidence that it is some sort of purgatory except some don't get to leave because they committed to much sin, though if you don't remember the sin you committed are you really the same person and can a new person be held responsible for what the old person did? GOD I love anime nothing else can prevent such philosophical conundrums in such an interesting way! We also get some evidence that the Habiani do grow up as we saw the older girl when she was younger.

My thoughts about this episode are colored by the fact that I recently lost my Grandmother (on my birthday actually). I really think though they handled the idea that not being able to move on is sinful that to much connection to one who is gone is not only disrespectful to yourself but that persons memory. Her sadness though was done in such a great way and the whole idea of flying over the walls and how that was handeled was moving sad and beautiful. I have a high tolerance for sadness being a guy and being emotional but having learned to control it. Those to episodes however brought tears to my eyes. This is ART and I am very glad I bought it.

Is it possible to buy translated versions of the dojuin, is there a petion somewhere to get Abe to do more stuff....? I really can't say enough goo d things about this show. I do wish they had given us a couple more episodes rather than just jumping a month after Kuss death though overall though great episodes!

[Ty]

Why is there 9 paragraphs worth of empty space breaking up the middle of your post? Oh, and the way you phrase killed off Kuu just comes across as plain wrong to me since that is not even remotely what happened.

[Natsume_Maya]

Ok reviving this topic if I should start another instead let me know, but I just finished the second CD and I HAVE to post. WOW! Next to Lain and Ghost in the Shell this is now my favorite anime, I like this better than Eva and much better than what I have seen of Noein.

Hopefully if you like the show that much you'll invest in more than "CD"s of the show :P

From your comments I presume you've watched the remainder of the series. But in any event I'll confine my comments to episode 6.

Ok wow the way they killed of Kuu was amazing, and the way it effected Raka was handled very well.

My thoughts:

- Reki suggests that the walls around Glie are to protect the town. But are the walls designed to keep things out, or keep things in? Reki warns the other Haibane not to get too close to the walls.

- It didn't seem like Kuu died to me. More like she changed/ascended. The Haibane refer to her Day of Independence/Day of Leaving the Nest.

- After Haibane are born out of their cocoons, they are given their halos in the world of Glie. When they leave on their Day of Leaving the Nest, they discard the halo given to them in the world of Glie.

- The ruined church/temple that the Haibane visit at the end of episode 6 is roughly cross shaped.

My thoughts about this episode are colored by the fact that I recently lost my Grandmother (on my birthday actually).

Sorry to hear that.

[zaldar]

Why is there 9 paragraphs worth of empty space breaking up the middle of your post? Oh, and the way you phrase killed off Kuu just comes across as plain wrong to me since that is not even remotely what happened.

I was unsure if the spoiler tag I used would work so I tried to make sure even if it didn't the spoiler stuff was still hidden. Editing it now should have done so before. (I don't post spoilers enough to remember the code) As for the dissagreement
I would say he is dead as he certinly isn't in the city with them anymore and that he still exists somewhere even in the world of the show is a myth as shown by Rakka's actions. I haven't finished the show so if it revels itself later I don't know yet.

Nope only seen to episode six and thank you for your sympathy.

[Redcoffin]

Is it possible to buy translated versions of the dojuin, is there a petion somewhere to get Abe to do more stuff....? I really can't say enough goo d things about this show. I do wish they had given us a couple more episodes rather than just jumping a month after Kuss death though overall though great episodes!

The doujins have been translated by fans and are out there somewhere. If you hunt around enough you will find them. However, they don't cover more than the first couple eps of the anime IIRC. They are more like a brain dump of ideas that later became Haibane Renmei, than they are a work in their own right.

[KomoriKiri]

Ok wow the way they killed of Kuu was amazing,

Have to agree with _Ty_ on this. That really isn't the way to phrase it. Kuu is somewhere the others can't reach, but the atmosphere surrounding it makes it more like an ascension or a reincarnation than a death. Oh, and Kuu is a she. ^_^

Is it possible to buy translated versions of the dojuin, is there a petion somewhere to get Abe to do more stuff....?

Don't know why you had this stuff in spoiler tags.

In any case, no there's no official translated version of the doujinshi to buy. There probably never will be; doujinshi is too small a market for that.
As far as new work, ABe was at AnimeFest this past summer. He's just put out a couple of books, one a how-to for Photoshop/Painter and the other an artbook. The artbook will probably be out in English soon, but it's not the Haibane one. He's currently working on a novel that will likely also be turned into an anime, but didn't get very specific about the topic. It sounded like he'd only recently started on it.

He also mentioned that he has been pressured to do more Haibane Renmei. Both by fans and people in the studio. Earlier he had said he was considering doing more in the same setting, but this last time he said he wasn't going to. He thought the anime wrapped things up the way it should, and he didn't see that it absolutely had to continue.

Wraith
"You've got pretty wings. Neither white nor black. A pretty gray."
-- Reki ("Haibane Renmei")

[Serial Experiments Nobue]

He thought the anime wrapped things up the way it should, and he didn't see that it absolutely had to continue.

My sentiment as well... Haibane Renmei wraps up just the way that it should have; it told everything that it needed to. You don't mess with perfection. :)

[Ty]

Why is there 9 paragraphs worth of empty space breaking up the middle of your post? Oh, and the way you phrase killed off Kuu just comes across as plain wrong to me since that is not even remotely what happened.

I was unsure if the spoiler tag I used would work so I tried to make sure even if it didn't the spoiler stuff was still hidden. Editing it now should have done so before. (I don't post spoilers enough to remember the code) As for the dissagreement
I would say he is dead as he certinly isn't in the city with them anymore and that he still exists somewhere even in the world of the show is a myth as shown by Rakka's actions. I haven't finished the show so if it revels itself later I don't know yet.

Nope only seen to episode six and thank you for your sympathy.
I didn't point it out to be rude, I just wasn't sure if you were aware you had done it. Dunno if the sympathy comment is sarcasm or not, but I do offer my condolences now as I forgot to before. Oh, and you thought Kuu was a boy? :sweatdrop: I know that by the look of her you might wonder for a moment, but she acts girly enough and the fact that they're all girls living together in Old Home is a good indicator.

[Natsume_Maya]

Nope only seen to episode six and thank you for your sympathy.
I didn't point it out to be rude, I just wasn't sure if you were aware you had done it. Dunno if the sympathy comment is sarcasm or not, but I do offer my condolences now as I forgot to before.

I think that part of the reply was addressed to me (see my previous post). I don't think zaldar was being sarcastic.

Oh, and you thought Kuu was a boy? :sweatdrop: I know that by the look of her you might wonder for a moment,

When I first saw the show, I wasn't sure whether Kuu was male or female either.

but she acts girly enough and the fact that they're all girls living together in Old Home is a good indicator.

Even if all the elder Haibane at Old Home are female, some of the kodomo Haibane are definitely male.

[aagranov]

I have to agree that this anime is as close to perfection as is possible. I found myself weeping uncontrollably near the end. I found myself thinking about my own mortality. I thought anime was just entertainment!

[zaldar]

Why is there 9 paragraphs worth of empty space breaking up the middle of your post? Oh, and the way you phrase killed off Kuu just comes across as plain wrong to me since that is not even remotely what happened.

I was unsure if the spoiler tag I used would work so I tried to make sure even if it didn't the spoiler stuff was still hidden. Editing it now should have done so before. (I don't post spoilers enough to remember the code) As for the dissagreement
I would say he is dead as he certinly isn't in the city with them anymore and that he still exists somewhere even in the world of the show is a myth as shown by Rakka's actions. I haven't finished the show so if it revels itself later I don't know yet.

Nope only seen to episode six and thank you for your sympathy.
I didn't point it out to be rude, I just wasn't sure if you were aware you had done it. Dunno if the sympathy comment is sarcasm or not, but I do offer my condolences now as I forgot to before. Oh, and you thought Kuu was a boy? :sweatdrop: I know that by the look of her you might wonder for a moment, but she acts girly enough and the fact that they're all girls living together in Old Home is a good indicator.


No no I didn't think you pointed it out to be rude in no way! And the comment about sympathy was not directed to you in anyway and certinly not meant to be a dig.....its not like you know me personally. I did think she was a he but I had it together until I posted it...sigh ah well.

Having not seen all of it I can't say if it wraps up nicely or not I can say I would love to see more of the same quality. The man is a genius that is for sure.

[aagranov]

I definitely put my money where my mouth is, I just purchased the Boxset on TRSI.

[Ty]

I definitely put my money where my mouth is, I just purchased the Boxset on TRSI.
Everybody should own Haibane, even the people who think it's boring. It's just such a shining example of how many things one show can get right.

[zaldar]

I definitely put my money where my mouth is, I just purchased the Boxset on TRSI.
Everybody should own Haibane, even the people who think it's boring. It's just such a shining example of how many things one show can get right.

Agreed the box set was the best 55 dollars I have ever spent and getting it at Ducks suggestion really gave me faith in this forum and people who recommend things here.

[zaldar]

Wow this just gets better and better...

Did Rakka kill herself? Don't answer that, but that is my thought now. She couldn't get over her depression before she came to the town killed herself and now her job in the town is to learn how to get over it so she can move on. The bird pulling her up in her dream and who she burried is her Mother or someone who tried to keep her from killing herself and burying it is the start of her remembering that and coming to terms with it. Thoughts now.

I love how black feathers on a Remni are bad and the crows are signs of perhaps evil or good but something powerful and mysterious. The way the show deals with greif and pain is really well done. That is why I considered [hide]kuu leaving to represent death. Because of everyones pain and the fact that no one really knows what comes next or if anything does just like they can't really say if anything came before they were born out of the cocoon[/code]. The lady treating her like a sign of good luck an object and not a person was also well done, the way the Japanese feel in foreign lands perhaps?

[Natsume_Maya]

I'm only up to episode 7 at the moment. (BTW, if I don't post any more to this thread for a while, it'll be because I'll be away from the computer until mid January 2008).

About episode 7:

- Strange that Rakka was the most cut up about Kuu's departure, even though she's known Kuu for the shortest period of time. Reki and Nemu would be familiar with the Day of Flight with Kuramori going, but I don't think Kana or Hikaru would've experienced someone leaving.

- Interesting that the tree from which the wing lotion is made grows only near the Wall. So the Wall is both a dangerous place and, in a sense, offers healing.

- In this episode we see the black spots on Rakka's feathers, but we also see the completely jet black feathers of the crows, which suggests to me that the spots are not evil. The crows do not appear to be evil - Kana is no friend of them, but Rakka seems to have sort of relationship with them.

- Reki's dream, as depicted in her paintings, is dark and depressing.

[zaldar]

I'm only up to episode 7 at the moment. (BTW, if I don't post any more to this thread for a while, it'll be because I'll be away from the computer until mid January 2008).

About episode 7:

- Strange that Rakka was the most cut up about Kuu's departure, even though she's known Kuu for the shortest period of time. Reki and Nemu would be familiar with the Day of Flight with Kuramori going, but I don't think Kana or Hikaru would've experienced someone leaving.

- Interesting that the tree from which the wing lotion is made grows only near the Wall. So the Wall is both a dangerous place and, in a sense, offers healing.

- In this episode we see the black spots on Rakka's feathers, but we also see the completely jet black feathers of the crows, which suggests to me that the spots are not evil. The crows do not appear to be evil - Kana is no friend of them, but Rakka seems to have sort of relationship with them.

- Reki's dream, as depicted in her paintings, is dark and depressing.


good catch on the crows and becomes even more important in episode eight. As you are one of the few watching it with me I'll try and wait for you to come back to watch another episode, I may not succed though...

[zaldar]

*blink* *blink* Man I really love this show I had forgotten how much. Reviving this as I have started watching it again and Natsume Maya is back.

To get back into it I watched episodes 1-7 which I had seen before again and then watched episode eight. I had forgotten how melancholy this anime made me. I don't know much about Taoism (Daoism)? but the way they have all these great mysteries but really don't study them much reminds me of what I do know about Taoism.

Things I noticed on a rewatch:
This was supposed to be a stream of consciousness setup I believe from the review. However some things are still foreshadowed in very nice ways. When Rakka is having her dream for the second time once she has come out of the cocoon the Bell that she is hearing in her dream sounds like the bell on the clock tower on Ku's day of flight and she is working at the clock tower that day.

As well the clock maker asks Rakka if Kuu is going away a reference to the day of flight.

Someone may have mentioned this before but kuu talks about creating a place where the crows can live without struggle, this sounds somewhat like what the town has done for the Haibane.

The day Rakka had her dream Kuu while doing his exercises looks at the clock, the bell tower that will ring later, was that when he first felt the guiding hand?

When the creation story is read is that the blue flow song in the background if so that is very appropriate. In this story Rakka's part is more humble than even Remi's but even she has the haibane being a mistake. Is this a Haibane in general trait? The abandoned factory haibane don't seem to be this way.

Winter comes quickly just like the Haibane coming and leaving. Does it leave quickly as well I wonder?

Episode eight showed that this was to simple of an explanation but after Kuu left (I still say this represents death in some form) I wondered if the point of being a Haibane was to become comfortable in your own skin, since learning to stop pretending to be an adult when she wasn't one seemed to be what she did right before she left (along with taking up hiding her halo..)

Then episode eight...as I told someone in a PM I really am beging to think Abe is a saint this was such a beautiful amazing episode. With this episode Haibane Renmei has passed here and there then and now as the most moving anime I have seen. The twig Rakka plants on the grave of the crow looks a lot like the plant from the opening. What exactly is the relationship between the Haibane and the crows I wonder? When rakka's feathers were going black I almost wondered if she was becoming a crow...

When exactly did her wings go white again? They were white when she was pulled out of the well and before then in the well as far as I could tell but I think they were still black at the end of the last episode after she buried the crow.

This episode really is one of the best combinations of Buddhism and Christianity I have seen and it really feels right to me. The riddle of the circle of sin is a GREAT description of how I understand the Christian idea of redemption. Recognize you are a sinner ask for forgiveness you are forgiven. As well the sin is from a previous life Buddhist idea of Karma and rebirth (the rebirth in the title I think can be taken two ways here the Haibane are reborn humans or the obvious rebirth Rakka had inside the well.) The way she had to fall into the well and hurt herself and especially the walk barefoot through the snow also reminded of some methods of Buddhist meditation. The snow walk especially reminded me of the Buddhist walking meditation where I think some monks wear shoes that are made to wear out quickly.

It will be interesting to see what touching the wall ends up doing and if Reki is continually hiding her wings with medicine. We know Renmi knows about what happened to her along with Rakka but I don't think the others know...

[Natsume_Maya]

I had forgotten how melancholy this anime made me.

Yeah, this series seems different from other anime series in its underlying sadness. Colours are muted, music is often poignant. The main character is introspective. Doesn't sound like the sort of story idea which would have attracted a lot of anime producers :)

Things I noticed on a rewatch:
This was supposed to be a stream of consciousness setup I believe from the review. However some things are still foreshadowed in very nice ways.

Some good points that you raised there.

Episode eight showed that this was to simple of an explanation but after Kuu left (I still say this represents death in some form) I wondered if the point of being a Haibane was to become comfortable in your own skin, since learning to stop pretending to be an adult when she wasn't one seemed to be what she did right before she left (along with taking up hiding her halo..)

That's an interesting point too. Though I don't recall clearly enough whether Kuu was hiding her halo, or just wearing a cap from time to time. I don't think she always wore a cap when going out in public.

When exactly did her wings go white again? They were white when she was pulled out of the well and before then in the well as far as I could tell but I think they were still black at the end of the last episode after she buried the crow.

I think the rest of your post actually relates to episode 9, rather than episode 8.

As to episode 8 (in which Rakka gets Kuu's bed, runs out of the second hand store, follows the crows into the woods and falls down the well).

From your previous post on episode 8:
The bird pulling her up in her dream and who she burried is her Mother or someone who tried to keep her from killing herself and burying it is the start of her remembering that and coming to terms with it. Thoughts now.

I like that idea. Though Rakka's relationship with the crows in this episode also makes me wonder: are the crows there to help out Rakka or is Rakka there to help the crows?

Although Haibane are supposed to have no memory of their past, Rakka seems to sense something when in the well with the crow skeleton. Crows are sometimes associated with memory, eg in Norse mythology Odin's two crows are Thought and Memory.

The lady treating her like a sign of good luck an object and not a person was also well done, the way the Japanese feel in foreign lands perhaps?

To me that scene had more to do with showing the depths of Rakka's despair, rather than feeling alienated. The shopkeeper tells her that people see Haibane as good luck charms, but with her discoloured feathers, she feels cursed instead.

Another thought I had while watching this episode was that the wall protects the Haibane from evil effects (as mentioned by Reki) but it also harms people if you get too near to it.

[Natsume_Maya]

I really am beging to think Abe is a saint this was such a beautiful amazing episode. With this episode Haibane Renmei has passed here and there then and now as the most moving anime I have seen.

Yeah, this is one of my favourite episodes as well. A lot happens. As for the comparison to Now and Then, Here and There - that show never really clicked with me the same way Haibane Renmei does. NTHT was just too continually depressing; as the story unfolds one bad thing after another befell the characters.

When exactly did her wings go white again? They were white when she was pulled out of the well and before then in the well as far as I could tell but I think they were still black at the end of the last episode after she buried the crow.

I had the same question about what cured Rakka's wings. Was it contact with the wall? Rakka's experiences in the well? To me, the story seems to suggest that it was Rakka's experience in the well that cured her. There, she had the sensation that she may have wronged someone previously. When the Communicator poses the riddle to her, he explains that those who recognise their sin have no sin. This suggests that Rakka, having recognised that she did wrong in the past, became cured.

(BTW, in relation to episode 8 I asked whether the crows were helping Rakka or vice versa. The Communicator suggests in this episode that it is the former.)

This episode really is one of the best combinations of Buddhism and Christianity I have seen and it really feels right to me. The riddle of the circle of sin is a GREAT description of how I understand the Christian idea of redemption. Recognize you are a sinner ask for forgiveness you are forgiven. As well the sin is from a previous life Buddhist idea of Karma and rebirth

Sin from a previous life can also be related to the Christian concept of original sin.

It will be interesting to see what touching the wall ends up doing and if Reki is continually hiding her wings with medicine.

I didn't get the feeling that Reki was still using the medicine on herself. Rather, the end of this episode made me wonder when and how Reki's wings became cured.

Other thoughts:

- In this episode, the Communicator reinforces the connection between the crows and memory (or at least lost things).

- What were the Toga doing in the Western Woods that they would come across Rakka in the well?

- Why are the Haibane told to avoid the Western Woods? Because that's where they go on their day of flight? Because the wall's power is particularly strong there? Because voices can be heard there? Are these issues all connected?

- IIRC the Communicator spoke of the wall recognising something, as if it was somehow sentient.

- It's earlier been suggested that the Haibane may be in a form of purgatory, but the Communicator says to Rakka that the Haibane have no sins to atone for.

- At the end of the episode, Reki feels she will be left behind, even by Rakka. She's disturbed by the fact that Rakka was able to cure her wings without further help from Reki. To what extent is the fever medicine genuine concern for Rakka's health, and to what extent is it Reki's desire for other people to have to depend on her/not leave her?

[zaldar]

They never really showed them saying never go into the western woods except one or two times so I never got the feeling that it was some evil place. I wish they could have showed that more. You are right about original sin didn't think of that. When did the communicator say they have no sins to atone for?

Rekki said she was still Sin-Bound at the end of this episode. So if she is still sin bound shouldn't she still be having to hide her wings?

Is she not sin bound but she still thinks she is?

[Natsume_Maya]

When did the communicator say they have no sins to atone for?

Around 36.03:
Your wings and halo are proof that...
you have no sin to be atoned for in this world.

[Natsume_Maya]

I don't really have much to say about this episode, but I thought it was another really good episode. More character and story development. We learn about Reki and Nemu's past, Reki's feelings and worries, and Rakka gets an interesting job.

Chibi-Nemu! :)

Reki's past gives an insight to the darkness in her: emerging alone from her cocoon (cf Rakka who had all the other Haibane in the room when she came out), "born" with black feathers (which must make her feel that she is innately impure), unable to remember her dream, Kuramori who'd promised to always be at her side has left, and she and Hyohko seem to be restricted in the amount of contact they can have with each other.

In relation to questions zaldar raised about episode 9-
Rekki said she was still Sin-Bound at the end of this episode. So if she is still sin bound shouldn't she still be having to hide her wings?

I don't think all sin-bound have black feathers. IIRC, the Communicator seemed to me to be suggesting in episode 9 that people are sin-bound until they find the answer to the riddle of the circle of sin.

Is she not sin bound but she still thinks she is?

It's not made clear in episode 10, but from the sound of it, the episode suggested to me that Reki is still sin-bound (in that she still hasn't found the answer to the riddle).

[zaldar]

Bah! How dare you watch an anime before me..guess I'm going to have to change to a threaded view of the forum...ah well ;)

Anyway I loved this episode. We do get to see Reki's past a bit more and we do definitely see that the Haibane age though they are not all born at the same age. I wonder if the age you are born at has anything to do with the amount of time you have as a Haibane? I love how the punishment is not really a punishment though as a job it seems like it would be lonely and boring though not to taxing I guess.

Still when she was looking at the leaves she said these are and then she looked off into the distance. The way things are going in this anime and the fact that the communicator had said before to Reki that you know what happens to Haibane who don't fly before their time is up (paraphrase) that it might somehow be the remains of Haibane who didn't fly away...

More likly based on looks and thematic issues that it is snowflakes. I like this because it gives the overall ephemeral nature of the Haibane just like snow they melt and one day go away.

So what happens to Haibane that don't fly away do they become toga part of the temple? Don't know yet. Is that why both the toga and the temple people wear masks and don't speak perhaps? So none of the other Haibane recognize their shame or recognize them?

I also love Reki telling Nemu that she doesn't have to worry about her, sure fire way to get someone to worry more about you.

It will be interesting in the next episode to see the abandoned factory.

[Natsume_Maya]

Bah! How dare you watch an anime before me..guess I'm going to have to change to a threaded view of the forum...ah well ;)

Or read the subject heading of each post :P

I wonder if the age you are born at has anything to do with the amount of time you have as a Haibane?

I don't think so. Kuu was younger (though we don't know when she was born) and left before Reki. Further, what the Communicator said seems to suggest that it's something to do with Haibane being ready rather than a particular age.

So what happens to Haibane that don't fly away do they become toga part of the temple? Don't know yet. Is that why both the toga and the temple people wear masks and don't speak perhaps? So none of the other Haibane recognize their shame or recognize them?

I wondered the same thing, particular since the Communicator wears stylised wings on his back. Though would it be strange if the Haibane can cross over the wall on their Day of Flight and the Toga (who are the only ones who can leave the town) are old Haibane?

[zaldar]

Yes that would be odd. I try to read the subject headings but still see things at times even when I try not to. Working on a system to deal with it.

I realize they fly when they are ready. But I was referring to the amount of time they have to GET ready. I wonder if that is different for each one of them.

So no comments on the "snow" that might make up their wings? To spoilery?

[Natsume_Maya]

So no comments on the "snow" that might make up their wings? To spoilery?


That's sort of a hard thing to answer. If I said "too spoilery" then you'd know there would some explanation later in the series. If I wrote "no spoilers" then you'd know that the series didn't address it later.

I just don't have any particular comment on your theory, though it's an interesting thought :P

[zaldar]

Heh ok. Probably will watch some more of it soon. Been meaning to but as I am getting close to the end I am getting melancholy about finishing it. I want to finish it because I want to know what happens but I don't want to finish it because then I won't have it to finish....I know I am not making any sense..sorry.

[zaldar]

Hmm I will post more on this once I watch it again and episode 12 but really does an anime as short as this need a recap episode? We advanced a little bit but not all that much...

Still as recap episodes go it was good.

[HellKorn]

There aren't any "recap" episodes in Haibane Renmei.

A recap episode is to reuse animation and only cover information that has been revealed before.

No Haibane episode does this.

[zaldar]

ok after watching episode 11 I would say it simply summaries things that have gone before rather than advancing things. *shrug* It doesn't reuse much animation but I think it does reuse some.

[Natsume_Maya]

ok after watching episode 11 I would say it simply summaries things that have gone before rather than advancing things. *shrug* It doesn't reuse much animation but I think it does reuse some.

I think it did advance the story. Among other things, Reki's background is explored a bit further (her relationship with the Haibane at the old factory).

Rakka makes it clear at the start that Reki is still sin-bound. The Communicator speaks of how Reki's time is approaching, and Midori calls Reki a do-gooder. Is she trying to do good deeds to arrive at the Day of Flight? On the other hand, the Communicator also speaks of how part of Reki doesn't want to leave the town.

There's some suggestion in this episode that the Toga are Haibane who did not arrive at the Day of Flight and stay behind. As the Communicator is talking of this, of how such Haibane are no longer called "Haibane", how they live apart from both men and Haibane, how they lose their wings, how they live quiet lives, the camera focuses on different parts of the Communicator.

Spoiler for episode 12 (I think):
When the runaway boat within the wall takes Rakka to a glowing portion of the wall, the characters on the wall spell "Kuu".

The characters on the suit which Rakka wears at work seems to spell "kabe" - if the people there use Japanese, then "kabe" means "wall".

[zaldar]

Well I watched episode 11 again and you are right it does move the story along. Only the begining is a little recap so it does not at all qualify as a recap episode. It was interesting to see that even the kids were noticing that Reki is different. The abandoned factory is definitely not as nice as Old Home in looks, good thing to see Boys are still boys though as they are rowdy as ever there. I did think more people were going to go over to the factory though from what had been said in previous episodes and that they were going to stay longer.

The glowing one it takes her to it almost looks like it has a tree behind it is that the tree of life supposedly? The voices she heard here sound like kids..are these spirits yet to be born as either humans or Haibane-Renmei? Or are these the voices of those who have passed over the wall?

I find it a little odd that Rakka's job doesn't start until the afternoon not fair either..as the others seem to work much more than she does.

Man saving Reki means Rakka has to loose her that is hard, though if she becomes a toga she looses her anyway. It does seem like the toga are Haibane who didn't go over the wall, not a bad life. Once the communicator had said Rakka's wings and halo were proof she had no sin to pay for in this world. Does that mean the humans do?

I wonder if learning how to lean on other people is what Reki needs to learn? It seems many of these characters don't connect with other people. Abes comment on those who watch anime?

The characters she sees on the wall, look like the characters she sees in the book in the library why doesn't she tell anyone this?

So is it a Japanese custom to get people peaches for a cold never heard of this before?

Reki is very deep especially for one who is sin bound. I do believe the fact that everything ends is what makes now precious.

Episode 12: This episode really didn't effect me as much as I felt it should not sure why..

The angry human snowman was interesting..not sure if important but interesting. It was an odd choice to use still pictures for the festival..running out of budget?

The sound the nut makes have we heard that somewhere else..it sounds familiar. So what japanese word sounds like Kuu but means something different? What is Kuu's true name. This is reminiscent of adult names in American Indian (and other I am sure) cultures. Do the Japanese do this? Give child and adult names?

Red is thanks (interesting as it is love in America) White is good bye and Thank You. (I thought when the day of flight was coming you were not supposed to talk about it)

The song at the end when they were looking up at the sky are these actual japanese words and do they have a translation?

This was the part that I didn't feel like effected me as much as it should. Felt like it should have been some religious experience but it didn't work for me for some reason. Was the light in the sky the beam supposed to be coming from the wall...and the wall collects thoughts all year...did they mean prayers? I really am not sure they can answer all the questions in the last episode I am going to be somewhat upset if some are unanswered though the spirit of this anime seems to be not about answering questions...Buddhist and Taoist in that way I guess (I wouldn't make a good Buddhist and definitely not a good Taoist I want to KNOW everything.)

I'll try to wait a bit to give people time to respond here before I watch the last episode not sure how long I can hold off though.

Should I make a new topic for discussion of the series as a whole after I finish in an attempt to attract more people?

[Natsume_Maya]

The glowing one it takes her to it almost looks like it has a tree behind it is that the tree of life supposedly?

I didn't get the impression that it was supposed to represent a tree, only that there was something special about that particular panel (which we later find out relates to Kuu).

The voices she heard here sound like kids..are these spirits yet to be born as either humans or Haibane-Renmei? Or are these the voices of those who have passed over the wall?

The show seemed to suggest that the voices are those of Haibane who's passed over, since Rakka thought it sounded like Kuu.

I find it a little odd that Rakka's job doesn't start until the afternoon not fair either..as the others seem to work much more than she does.

Maybe the place is even spookier during the morning :)

I wonder if learning how to lean on other people is what Reki needs to learn? It seems many of these characters don't connect with other people. Abes comment on those who watch anime?

I'm wondering the same thing: Reki needs to learn that she's "human", ie that she's fallible, imperfect, and needs help herself.

Episode 12: This episode really didn't effect me as much as I felt it should not sure why..

Because the episode raised a lot of questions but didn't really answer many?

So what japanese word sounds like Kuu but means something different? What is Kuu's true name.

Good question. I'm not sure what it could be.

This is reminiscent of adult names in American Indian (and other I am sure) cultures. Do the Japanese do this? Give child and adult names?

Not that I'm aware of. The Japanese Emperor gets named after his era upon death though.

This was the part that I didn't feel like effected me as much as it should. Felt like it should have been some religious experience but it didn't work for me for some reason.

Perhaps because some of the ideas in this episode are more alien to us than previous episodes? ie much of what's been discussed in the show up til now can be referred to major world religions, but the glowing wall is different.

I like the music though :)

Other thoughts about this episode:

- Midori's character design reminds me of those by Fujishima "Sakura Taisen" Kosuke.

- We see that Reki is still using the lotion herself for black feathers.

- There's the suggestion in this episode of forgiveness by someone else (not oneself), which alludes to the Christian of forgiveness of sins.

Should I make a new topic for discussion of the series as a whole after I finish in an attempt to attract more people?

I don't think the mods would like that. People still read this thread even though they may not post. If you want to, after watching the final episode, perhaps change the thread title to indicate that the whole series is now open for discussion.

[zaldar]

K will do it that way. If those with more knowledge about Japan want to comment on the glowing wall that would be nice. It did seem like something I couldn't relate to. The passing of the year ceremony was interesting and that I could understand as we have as well the idea of forgiveness at the end of the year in Auld Lang Syne (misspelled I know). Would love to know what Kuus true name is as well.

I hope the last episode doesn't leave stuff hanging...

[zaldar]

Well finally broke down and watched the last episode. I do feel empty now and to some extent the build up was more than the reward. Good show however. I had figured out as I said a couple posts that at least some of the Habani had commited suicide. I think both Raka and Reki did others we don't know their stories. (This does leave me wondering about the children..I really hope that wasn't a statement of a political/moral nature).

Being anime I was worried if she was going to ask for help in the end. Still thinking about the ending a bit will post more once it has sunk in. Please do discuss the entire series now.

[Sly05]

I had figured out as I said a couple posts that at least some of the Habani had commited suicide. I think both Raka and Reki did others we don't know their stories. (This does leave me wondering about the children..I really hope that wasn't a statement of a political/moral nature).

Yeah, I don't think they all committed suicide. I think they may just be children who died for whatever reason. If they were all suicides, it doesn't explain why Reki was born a sin bound and most of the other Haibane were not. Kanna's dream of swimming may indicate that she drowned and what we know of other Haibane can lead to other guesses at how they died, not necessarily from suicide. This would explain the young feathers as well.

[aagranov]

So if they are not all sin-bound due to suicide, why accidental deaths should have to go through a purgatory? Why not straight to heaven?

What is ABe implying with this? Also suicide is only a sin in Judaism and Christianity not other religions. Maybe its his commentary on that?

[roastedpekingduck]

I never thought of the Haibane world as a purgatory. It just gives a chance to those who died prematurely more opportunity to experience life before permanently passing. The children who died accidentally in their previous lives were just given a chance to live a bit longer, and those who died prematurely through suicide are likewise given another opportunity to atone for their suicide by living slightly longer, enough to gain an appreciation for life. I felt that suicide in Haibane wasn't necessarily portrayed wholly as a sin, but mainly as a really regrettable and sad decision for hopeless people who die before reaching out to others. Living with other Haibane gives those suicide Haibane another chance to establish those connections.

While Haibane do have angel wings, I never really thought of them as "angels" or believe that the Haibane world is connected to Christianity/Judaism. Instead, I thought that it was implied that like in Buddhism, people simply and permanently disappeared after their "ascension."


While I'm certain that the young Haibane did not commit suicide, I think that at least quite a few of the older ones committed suicide. I'm pretty sure that all Haibane died young in their previous lives, and in the case of Nemu, young people don't just die in their sleep (I personally thought the names and dreams implied their way of death, which makes sense.). They usually OD on sleeping pills or something else.

[Sly05]

I felt that suicide in Haibane wasn't necessarily portrayed wholly as a sin, but mainly as a really regrettable and sad decision for hopeless people who die before reaching out to others. Living with other Haibane gives those suicide Haibane another chance to establish those connections.


That's pretty much my thought as well. Given that its implied that Rakka committed suicide as well and didn't start showing signs of being sin bound until later, it's really the feeling of hopelessness and abandonment that seems to be at the root of being sin bound rather than the actual act of suicide itself (though these feelings certainly accompany the act). Reki had these feelings at the beginning while it took Kuu's day of flight to stir this in Rakka.

This also ties into both Rakka (who was forgiven by the crow) and Reki (who had to ask for help) making conections with other people to overcome their sin bound states.

In the cause of Nemu, sleeping during her dream could also represent dying in a coma and Hyouko might have fallen through some ice and died of hypothermia. All speculation of course, but there's certainly ways for everyone to have died without suicide being the cause of death.

[zaldar]

I had figured out as I said a couple posts that at least some of the Habani had commited suicide. I think both Raka and Reki did others we don't know their stories. (This does leave me wondering about the children..I really hope that wasn't a statement of a political/moral nature).

Yeah, I don't think they all committed suicide. I think they may just be children who died for whatever reason. If they were all suicides, it doesn't explain why Reki was born a sin bound and most of the other Haibane were not. Kanna's dream of swimming may indicate that she drowned and what we know of other Haibane can lead to other guesses at how they died, not necessarily from suicide. This would explain the young feathers as well.

My problem with that though then is why did they not immediately go to what was beyond the wall? Why to this holding area before what ever comes next? It is interesting and I am not sure if Abe even knows as he said in the interview this was somewhat not planned (though I am not sure how well that holds up to scrutiny, like his statement that it isn't really about one religion in particular...it really does seem more Christian than Buddhist to me)

[zaldar]

I never thought of the Haibane world as a purgatory. It just gives a chance to those who died prematurely more opportunity to experience life before permanently passing. The children who died accidentally in their previous lives were just given a chance to live a bit longer, and those who died prematurely through suicide are likewise given another opportunity to atone for their suicide by living slightly longer, enough to gain an appreciation for life. I felt that suicide in Haibane wasn't necessarily portrayed wholly as a sin, but mainly as a really regrettable and sad decision for hopeless people who die before reaching out to others. Living with other Haibane gives those suicide Haibane another chance to establish those connections.

While Haibane do have angel wings, I never really thought of them as "angels" or believe that the Haibane world is connected to Christianity/Judaism. Instead, I thought that it was implied that like in Buddhism, people simply and permanently disappeared after their "ascension."


While I'm certain that the young Haibane did not commit suicide, I think that at least quite a few of the older ones committed suicide. I'm pretty sure that all Haibane died young in their previous lives, and in the case of Nemu, young people don't just die in their sleep (I personally thought the names and dreams implied their way of death, which makes sense.). They usually OD on sleeping pills or something else.

Hmm he did say in his interview that it wasn't built on Christianity but we do have them saying that they think they will see each other again. If even going over the wall you still just cease to exist how is that any different than what would have happened to Negi if she hadn't reached out for help? This may be my problem with Buddhism but it certainly isn't an uplifting religion.

Salvation I think is about more here than just this life. The statements of the head priest I think have to be taken with some grain of salt as he is one of the Habiane that didn't go over the wall and lost his wings.

[HellKorn]

Also suicide is only a sin in Judaism and Christianity not other religions. Maybe its his commentary on that?

Uh, what?

I don't know about other religions, but suicide is generally frowned upon in Buddhism. Suicide as a whole seems to be something considered as a negative as it shows a disregard for life, and frequently it's merely not to escape a slow, unbearable death but rather because the person cannot cope with their shortcomings.

There's a promotion of appreciation of life and living amongst and learning to care for others -- something also implied in Texhnolyze, another ABe-related anime.

[HellKorn]

Hmm he did say in his interview that it wasn't built on Christianity but we do have them saying that they think they will see each other again.

And the thought of an afterlife is singular to Christianity how?

This may be my problem with Buddhism but it certainly isn't an uplifting religion.

This is the second time you've stated this, and the second time I'll state that you seem to have a great misunderstanding of Buddhism altogether. Please stop making such comments when you seem to have only a vague, minimal understanding of the relgion.

[zaldar]

Hmm he did say in his interview that it wasn't built on Christianity but we do have them saying that they think they will see each other again.

And the thought of an afterlife is singular to Christianity how?

This may be my problem with Buddhism but it certainly isn't an uplifting religion.

This is the second time you've stated this, and the second time I'll state that you seem to have a great misunderstanding of Buddhism altogether. Please stop making such comments when you seem to have only a vague, minimal understanding of the relgion.


Ok I will sorry I had forgotten the hurt I caused when I had stated it before. I have seen nothing in the ancient texts or the words of Buddha to say that budhhasim really has what I would consider an afterlife (the modern changed version does yes I know) but I will not discuss it further. I will ask however besides the sayings of the compassionate Buddha (which I own) what else should I read to get an understanding of the religion.

More on topic with the show.

We do get to learn that the cocoons start off as the plant like things we see in the beginning. Interesting, so they all do somehow fall from the sky and are born as some sort of plant. Rakka also gets to see two as soon as they are "born" a mark of special favor?

Overall at first I didn't like the ending I wanted something bigger. I wanted to know what was behind the wall what are the answers. As I thought about it though I realized this would be outside the spirit of the anime (and buddhism?) I still think I may have liked it better if the ending was more relavatory but it wouldn't have fit.

I'm not sure if he can do more in this world without ruining it but I would buy it if he did.

[Natsume_Maya]

Well finally broke down and watched the last episode. I do feel empty now and to some extent the build up was more than the reward.

My experience was the opposite. I thought it was the last episode which made the series - it's a beautiful and uplifting ending, IMO.

My problem with that though then is why did they not immediately go to what was beyond the wall?

Do we know if they actually do go beyond the wall? When Rakka was working inside the wall, what were those voices she heard, and why did those bright particles settle around the part of the wall about Kuu?

(though I am not sure how well that holds up to scrutiny, like his statement that it isn't really about one religion in particular...it really does seem more Christian than Buddhist to me)

The work may not be about one religion in particular but the series does seem to draw from Christian ideas in telling its story. You have the traditional concept of wings and a halo, original sin, etc. Even in the last episode, Reki helps the other Haibane and her name is "stone". In Christianity, Simon is to lead the church, and he given the name Peter, meaning "rock".

The statements of the head priest I think have to be taken with some grain of salt as he is one of the Habiane that didn't go over the wall and lost his wings.

He seems to be portrayed as a knowledgeable character though. But one thing which did interest me was Reki speaking in the last episode about disappearing. Was she speaking of a wish to suicide, or did she mean that if she didn't see her Day of Flight she would actually physically disappear? The latter would be contrary to what's been said about Haibane losing their wings. Alernatively, perhaps she was speaking of disappearing metaphorically, because as one of the mute Haibane Renmei she would lose her identity as Reki.

[zaldar]

No I don't think we know if they go beyond the wall actually that was just what they all assumed. There were just so many unanswered questions though. Like the yellow particles around Kuu's name. Maybe the thoughts that it picks up during the year are the Haibane themselves and it is with the passing of the year they move on....?

I found Reki becoming one that helps others as a bridge or stone interesting as well. It would be interesting to know which religion if any Abe practices (though I am sure he would never say) I am going to look this up but I think Buddhism has similar ideas of people who reach enlightenment and come back to help others.

I guess I just wanted more holes filled. We never find out what the old temple was about, really who the priests and those who can leave the town are, what the old symbols that we saw in the library are about what the relation between them and the handsigns are.

Here is another thought, at one point the priest says Rakka's halo and wings are proof she doesn't have any sign to make up for in this life (leaving behind the contradiction to being sin bound for now)what does this mean about the humans in the town? Do they have sin to make up for? Is that why they are not Haibane?

[zaldar]

well responding to my own post sigh ;)

Two things. We saw two haibane-renmei reach the day of flight (what ever that means). The head priest seems to say it means to different things at different times but more on that in another post. Rakka then finds two pods growing in a room. Does this mean there is a limit on how many haibane-renmei their can be at a time? I may have to go back and find it but when Kuu first reaches her day of flight doesn't one of them say that something to the effect that their hasn't been many days of flight recently since there had been no new pods? Maybe this has to do with the fact that the ingredients for the halo's are collected inside the wall and are in some way perhaps the recycled halos of haibane-renmei that have gone over (I really don't want to think it is the haibane-renmei themselves) though we do see a left over halo from when kuu goes over (and so feathers also do they loose their wings on their day of flight that would be odd).

Also on the CD there is what I thought at first was a latin phrase that I thought had some deep meaning to the series especially since it was the name of the last song that is played in the last episode, Ailes Grises (I was thinking something to do with all is good). The whole phrase is une fille qui des ailes grises. If you know french you are probably laughing right now.

Anyway it turns out to be french and to translate to a girl with charcoal wings. So yes it is a CD made to be sold in three countries France, Japan, and English speaking countries with three different titles in three different languages (the third being the Japanese characters on the front which I am assuming are a title I don't have any clue how to go about translating those). Sigh so no big mystery solved, ah well.

[Natsume_Maya]

I guess I just wanted more holes filled. We never find out what the old temple was about, really who the priests and those who can leave the town are, what the old symbols that we saw in the library are about what the relation between them and the handsigns are.

The written symbols used in the old civilisatoin are graphical representations of the handsigns used by the Haibane Renmei. That's the only relationship I think. Whether it's supposed to suggest more, eg that the Renmei has been around for centuries, I don't know.

Two things. We saw two haibane-renmei reach the day of flight (what ever that means). The head priest seems to say it means to different things at different times but more on that in another post. Rakka then finds two pods growing in a room. Does this mean there is a limit on how many haibane-renmei their can be at a time?

That's an interesting idea.

I may have to go back and find it but when Kuu first reaches her day of flight doesn't one of them say that something to the effect that their hasn't been many days of flight recently since there had been no new pods?

I think you may be mistaken about that.

[zaldar]

I guess I just wanted more holes filled. We never find out what the old temple was about, really who the priests and those who can leave the town are, what the old symbols that we saw in the library are about what the relation between them and the handsigns are.

The written symbols used in the old civilisatoin are graphical representations of the handsigns used by the Haibane Renmei. That's the only relationship I think. Whether it's supposed to suggest more, eg that the Renmei has been around for centuries, I don't know.

Two things. We saw two haibane-renmei reach the day of flight (what ever that means). The head priest seems to say it means to different things at different times but more on that in another post. Rakka then finds two pods growing in a room. Does this mean there is a limit on how many haibane-renmei their can be at a time?

That's an interesting idea.

I may have to go back and find it but when Kuu first reaches her day of flight doesn't one of them say that something to the effect that their hasn't been many days of flight recently since there had been no new pods?

I think you may be mistaken about that.


Ah ok I'll look again. Still don't know what the items she collects that make the halo's are either (sigh). I also think the main preacher contradicts himself a couple times will have to watch for that to on my second watch through.