? about anime and filler

[ucdawg12]

Hey guys, I was looking up filler on wikipedia and I read about something that I wasn't really aware of. Apparently Kenshin was cancelled because the ratings really dropped low during the filler. I also read that Naruto part 1 was cancelled due to low ratings during its filler and then it was re-launched as part two.

My question from this is, is it unlikely a show like Bleach for example, once Bleach ran out of manga material and went to filler, if it had simply gone on hiatus instead, would it have been unlikely to be picked up again? Do studios fear that if they take a break on a show then they might never get to continue it once they have enough material for more episodes?

I know Gash Bell went to filler and then finished the story on filler, why is this more evidence that studios don't believe a 2nd season (or whatever you want to call it) would get picked up if the show went on hiatus? The thought that comes to my mind is that they make filler to continue making money, but once I learned that Naruto and Kenshin were cancelled because of their low ratings during filler, I can't imagine they make nearly as much as when they are airing canon episodes.

I mean, Inuyasha ended what like 3 years ago? That is plenty of material for a new season and it was really popular I believe (I think I saw it got a 15% compared to Naruto's 10% but I'm not really sure what the numbers were) yet it hasn't been brought back yet.

So I guess, even with popular properties, if you take a break you are risking never coming back? When I think about it, there really aren't season breaks in japan like there are in the US. Anime kind of air continuously for years.

[Thanatos]

I also read that Naruto part 1 was cancelled due to low ratings during its filler and then it was re-launched as part two.


Lies. Naruto, even during the 'filler' (God I hate that word) of two years still consistently placed in the top ten TV anime ratings in Japan. The Naruto 'filler' ended simply because the staff thought they finally had allowed enough time for enough new manga to be created.

[Andrew Cunningham]

But relaunching it with a new title was probably to get the ratings boost and bring back viewers lost.

[Takato]

I had always assumed that Naruto was just mirroring the way DB switched its title to DBZ when it jumped ahead in its timeline since Naruto is inspired by DBZ.

[mike.motaku]

Filler is a way to keep a show on the air until the manga gets enough material to animate, nothing more. If they drop out when they catch up with the manga they risk losing audience, the timeslot, and advertiser money.

A more acceptable way of doing this may be to just animate the first one or two major arcs of a longer series and present the space inbetween as sidestories or work with the mangaka about ideas to go completely offscript and do an adaptation of the manga rather than a strict reproduction of it. And if they wait and only license completed stories, the audience for the manga could have already moved on to the next flavor of the week, so it's a tricky proposition all around.

I don't mind the filler so much as I already regard it as sidestories, which, if I like the characters and the world they live in is just fine with me.

[something]

My issues with the concept of "filler" aside (it's valid sometimes, but often applied where it's not):

Hey guys, I was looking up filler on wikipedia and I read about something that I wasn't really aware of. Apparently Kenshin was cancelled because the ratings really dropped low during the filler. I also read that Naruto part 1 was cancelled due to low ratings during its filler and then it was re-launched as part two.
I've never really seen anything to contradict the Kenshin claim, but that Naruto claim sounds like utter nonsense. I can't even grasp what their logic is behind saying so. And how can you "cancel" filler? It's there to... fill in until you can get back to the main story. You can "cancel Naruto" (which they did not) but "canceling filler" makes little sense in this context.

My question from this is, is it unlikely a show like Bleach for example, once Bleach ran out of manga material and went to filler, if it had simply gone on hiatus instead, would it have been unlikely to be picked up again? Do studios fear that if they take a break on a show then they might never get to continue it once they have enough material for more episodes?
I think that's part of what they fear. I almost rather wish they would stop and just bring it back later, honestly. Go animate something else in the meantime while you wait for the glacially slow mangaka to put out more story.

Hell, use the wait to animate something original (perish the thought!), not based on an ongoing manga or novel, that won't have you stuck with someone elses' timeline and pacing. Then in three hundred thousand years when another couple more volumes are out, go animate more.

Will they lose viewers in the interim? I dunno. Probably. Have any long long shows based on manga like that really tried it? I've shied away from long shows for just these reasons, so I'm not well versed enough in them to know. I don't know if it's a valid fear (will the viewers not come back?) or if it's just the same illogical paranoia that drives fears over the "reverse importation" boogeyman.

Of course, the real answer is likely much more mundane. They do filler because it lets them sell more, get more TV time, make more figures, and generally milk the franchise. As Thanatos noted, Naruto still made massive amounts of money while in filler. Quality of the work be damned, there's millions to be lost if they DON'T fill. Well, maybe. It could also kill the franchise and ruin any chance of making future money. Who knows? It's probably worth it to them to make the filler and find out though.

[Dicrel Seijin]

Filler for the secondary markets though are killers.

Most of my friends have decided to stop watching Naruto and Bleach when the fillers air and pick afterwards. I plan on watching, but I'm a masochist and weird that way. :D And since I'm watching I've been charged with the duty to tell them when the filler ends... in several seasons.... :sd:

I can only think of one series in recent memory that basically went on a significant hiatus between seasons: Ikki Tousen.

You cannot say that interest waned between seasons. Not with all the figures... *drools for a moment, lost in thought* ...and other merch, but mostly the figures.

If a rumor I read is true, then the only reason for the second season was the sales of merch.

[HitokiriShadow]

I can only think of one series in recent memory that basically went on a significant hiatus between seasons: Ikki Tousen.


I don't think that's really the same thing since the first series was planned to be 13 episodes to begin with. For short shows, this isn't terribly uncommon. While not based on manga, Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni (When They Cry), Shakugan no Shana, Full Metal Panic, and Haruhi Suzumiya are all examples of the same thing. For another manga example, there is the upcoming second series of Gunslinger Girl. All where originally planned for a specific length and were later given a second series/season due to popularity and/or because they had more material to animate later.

But for lengthy, indefinite series like Naruto and Bleach, once they go off air, they are off air for good. OVA continuations are pretty much the only way those things get continued once that happens (see Rurouni Kenshin, Hunter x Hunter, I think Prince of Tennis).

[nakimushi]

One idea I always thought might be interesting, but AFAIK I don't think it has ever been tried, would be to alternate two shows in the same timeslot in 12-13 week intervals.

So basically, one show would run in the spring and fall, while the other would run in the summer and winter.

Then theoretically, both shows could just follow their respective mangas without having to resort to filler, since they would only need enough material for 24-26 weeks as opposed to 50+.

It is basically the strategy used in the US television industry for years. New episodes start in the fall, followed by a mid-winter hiatus, followed by more new episodes in the spring, followed by a summer of re-runs. Which worked out great when I was a kid and could catch up on the shows I missed during the school year.


There are unfortunately a couple of obvious weaknesses in this strategy.

The first is the risk that people would forget about one of the shows in the 13 weeks it wasn't being broadcast. The Japanese may just not be used to waiting for new episodes like Americans are.

The second, is that a year's run of a manga, might still not be able to produce enough content for 24-26 episodes in a year.

I guess this could be figured out though by people who follow manga stories week by week. In general, does anyone know how many weekly manga releases go into a single anime episode?

If it is more than 2 weekly manga releases per anime episode, then the anime would still outrun the manga eventually, just not as quickly as it would if there were 50+ episodes in a year.


I have also heard it mentioned that some Japanese readers of the manga don't mind filler episodes as much, mainly because, since they've already read the manga story, the filler episodes at least show them something they haven't seen already. I don't know how true that assertion is though.

[Takato]

I can only think of one series in recent memory that basically went on a significant hiatus between seasons: Ikki Tousen.

Tsubasa took a hiatus between seasons and in-between these breaks they aired reruns of CCS but Tsubasa supposedly hasn't been doing very well in Japan. One idea I really liked was what Bones did with FMA where instead of just producing a bunch of crappy filler-ins while waiting for the manga to catch up, they started off adapting the manga fairly accurately, but mid-way through they branched off into their own original plot, but they consulted Arakawa beforehand about the manga and received her approval to make the changes that they did. While I think the FMA manga is better than the anime, the anime is still entertaining in its own right and the quality of the writing and production values stayed pretty consistent throughout the show. Imagine how Naruto could've turned out if they took a similar route instead of the filler-ins they ended up going with.

[ucdawg12]

One idea I always thought might be interesting, but AFAIK I don't think it has ever been tried, would be to alternate two shows in the same timeslot in 12-13 week intervals.

Actually, now that I think about it, Major is doing something like this. I don't think it swaps its time slot with the same show every year, but it runs for a 26 episode season and then takes a 26 week break. I do remember seeing Major's ratings somewhere and I think they were pretty good. It hasn't not been picked up yet, so it must get above average ratings. Does anyone know if Major has suffered a significant drop in ratings with this kind release schedule?

[mandisaw]

Whether to take a break or use filler probably comes to a combination of the anime-writing staff and the funds available. It does still cost a fair amount of money to keep a show on the air, especially if it's for an indeterminate length of time. If your writers can keep the audience interested (or acquire a new audience) and if the cash flow is good, then you've got a green light.

Also, scheduling on TV is a cutthroat business. I don't think you get the kind of timeslot-shifting during active seasons in Japan that US networks do. If your series has a strong timeslot, and you go off-air for a season or two, there's no guarantee you'll get that slot back again. Heck, you might not even be on the same channel/network anymore, given how Japanese TV seems to "spread the wealth". Better to hold on to your timeslot, even if you're doing stick figures (KareKano, anyone?).

[Andrew Cunningham]

As an interesting sidenote, Kekkaishi will shift from 7:00 to a late night slot soon.

[Thanatos]

As an interesting sidenote, Kekkaishi will shift from 7:00 to a late night slot soon.

Meaning unless it pulls a Hajime no Ippo, Kekkaishi is gonna die? Getting transferred out of Golden Time is bad news.

[DocWatson]

Most of the points have already been discussed, but I thought I would throw in this "Ask John" column: "Why Does Anime Use Filler Episodes? (http://animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1170)"

[Dicrel Seijin]

But for lengthy, indefinite series like Naruto and Bleach, once they go off air, they are off air for good. OVA continuations are pretty much the only way those things get continued once that happens (see Rurouni Kenshin, Hunter x Hunter, I think Prince of Tennis).

Thinking about it more, I do see your point about the long series continuing in only movie-length installments once off air.

Most of the points have already been discussed, but I thought I would throw in this "Ask John" column: "Why Does Anime Use Filler Episodes? (http://animenation.net/news/askjohn.php?id=1170)"

Sponsors. Well they do say follow the money if you want to know what's going on.

A rather informative article. It goes to show that anime is as much a commercial enterprise as it is an artistic one.