Geneon Entertainment Revival Proposals

[laplacedemon08]

I understand that the distribution branch of Geneon was what died, but I still don't understand why there can't just be another distributor. I would like to hear some suggestions and proposals to release the last volumes that Geneon had left to distribute without all the bickering about how it won't happen, and probably would be best if it didn't happen. Here are some very possible and reasonable proposals to produce and distribute Geneon's remaining volumes:

1. The Right Stuf International releases all remaining volumes. After all, they do handle customer services for Geneon, and they have distributed Right Stuf Gift Certificates to the online store for the malfunctions of the Fate/Stay Night Volume 6 LE Saber Clock.
2. A petition is taken up from all forum posters from all walks of anime forums (including Anime On DVD :notworthy: ) to request that Dentsu be held solely responsible for releasing the remaining volumes.
3. Some form of an anime strike occurs; we quit/hesitate to buy anime releases until anime companies understand how badly we want to see a full release of Geneon's remaining volumes (i.e. Anime Conservation Strike).

I am getting a little desperate, knowing that the titles that I was collecting are getting a delayed release. But trust me, I have not lost my cool about the issue.

[GyroidFanatic]

You're ignoring quite a few legal and financial issues

[PhilipReuben]

I understand that the distribution branch of Geneon was what died, but I still don't understand why there can't just be another distributor.

There can, of course. But said distributor has to decide to do it, and then get through all the legal hoopla that would require. Our only real option is to wait and see what happens.

A petition is taken up from all forum posters from all walks of anime forums (including Anime On DVD :notworthy: ) to request that Dentsu be held solely responsible for releasing the remaining volumes.

Yeah, because internet petitions work.

Some form of an anime strike occurs; we quit/hesitate to buy anime releases until anime companies understand how badly we want to see a full release of Geneon's remaining volumes (i.e. Anime Conservation Strike).

And then all the other studios shut down as well because they're not making any money, right?

[something]

1. The Right Stuf International releases all remaining volumes. After all, they do handle customer services for Geneon, and they have distributed Right Stuf Gift Certificates to the online store for the malfunctions of the Fate/Stay Night Volume 6 LE Saber Clock.
No connection between this and actually undertaking the costly distribution of multiple half done anime properties though (even if already dubbed), some of which probably were not performing well to begin with (sadly). Not wholesale anyway. I mean, anything is possible, but TRSI would be like any other company: evaluating each license on its own merits and deciding if it's worth rescuing.

2. A petition is taken up from all forum posters from all walks of anime forums (including Anime On DVD :notworthy: ) to request that Dentsu be held solely responsible for releasing the remaining volumes.
They won't read it, and if they did, they'd laugh. They already wrote off millions in closing costs, and given the way they went about it all, I really, really doubt they give a darn what we think. At all.

3. Some form of an anime strike occurs; we quit/hesitate to buy anime releases until anime companies understand how badly we want to see a full release of Geneon's remaining volumes (i.e. Anime Conservation Strike).
... :sd:

Sorry, I have way too much to buy and enjoy. It sucks that Geneon basically died, but like hell am I going to stop enjoying anime because of it. It's bad, but it's far, far from the end of the world (or the hobby). Even the ever-popular Geneon is just one company of many. We'll survive. And hey, I'm talking as someone whose second favorite show of all time is now in license limbo because of all this, so I'm not just brushing it off as an uncaring observer. It's just that... they're gone, nothing we do can change that.

[laplacedemon08]

You're ignoring quite a few legal and financial issues

Please explain. I believe that Geneon would most likely favor The Right Stuf International, and if they have no plans to return to the market, then why not sell all of their licenses to The Right Stuf International for a discounted price? I most definitely believe that it is possible, and The Right Stuf International would be a very ideal distributor, as they are aware of the size of the fan-base for most anime series that Geneon sold. They also have a tendency for limited print runs, so that would mean that they will not over-produce the anime.

[HitokiriShadow]

Please explain. I believe that Geneon would most likely favor The Right Stuf International, and if they have no plans to return to the market, then why not sell all of their licenses to The Right Stuf International for a discounted price?

Because it isn't theirs to sell.

[laplacedemon08]

No connection between this and actually undertaking the costly distribution of multiple half done anime properties though (even if already dubbed), some of which probably were not performing well to begin with (sadly). Not wholesale anyway. I mean, anything is possible, but TRSI would be like any other company: evaluating each license on its own merits and deciding if it's worth rescuing.

This is what I don't understand at all. People talk about how poorly the titles sold, when you don't have any proof at all. How much does an anime title need to sell before it is considered to be deemed as "decent". How much in cost does it require for the costs of distribution. Hopefully you don't mean something simple like DVD cases, DVDs, and paper (because those things are pretty cheap). How much would be involved to actually buy the complete license for one of the "unfinished" shows?

Sorry, I have way too much to buy and enjoy. It sucks that Geneon basically died, but like hell am I going to stop enjoying anime because of it.

So you mean you are so dissatisfied with everything you have purchased so far that you'll go to the extent of continuing to buy new (and almost always pricey) shows even though you don't get absolute fulfillment from them? What a waste of money, time and resources.

[Suwako Moriya]

And then all the other studios shut down as well because they're not making any money, right?

Which would just make things even worse than they already are. In all honesty all we can hope for right now is maybe just maybe select titles being rescued in the far future. Note the key word being select.

Thus my strategy boils down to simply waiting. I'll hold on to the unfinished Geneon titles I have. I'll rely on other forms to re-watch the remaining episodes. I'll focus on collecting other series. If/When a Geneon title resumes or finally starts then depending on the title I'll start/continue collecting it.

[HitokiriShadow]

You fail hard at quoting.

This is what I don't understand at all. People talk about how poorly the titles sold, when you don't have any proof at all. How much does an anime title need to sell before it is considered to be deemed as "decent". How much in cost does it require for the costs of distribution. Hopefully you don't mean something simple like DVD cases, DVDs, and paper (because those things are pretty cheap). How much would be involved to actually buy the complete license for one of the "unfinished" shows?


We know that Rozen Maiden wasn't selling well because a rep said so. As for others, we don't know for sure, but certain genres just don't sell well. And we can speculate and have our suspicions for various reasons. No, we don't know for sure they did poorly, but you don't know they did well either.

So you mean you are so dissatisfied with everything you have purchased so far that you'll go to the extent of continuing to buy new (and almost always pricey) shows even though you don't get absolute fulfillment from them? What a waste of money, time and resources.

What? I'm not sure what any of that has to do with what something actually said. And your question doesn't even make sense.

[something]

Please fix your quotes.
This is what I don't understand at all. People talk about how poorly the titles sold, when you don't have any proof at all.
This is why I said "probably". Anime companies do not give us this information. In the simplest sense, one can say "If their shows sold, they wouldn't have been dissolved", but that's too simplistic a view in my mind. However, a Geneon rep did say that, for example, Rozen Maiden wasn't selling as well as they hoped.

How much does an anime title need to sell before it is considered to be deemed as "decent".
More than it cost to license, dub, distribute, and market, I'd assume. Beyond that, it's all about what the company expects from it.

How much in cost does it require for the costs of distribution. Hopefully you don't mean something simple like DVD cases, DVDs, and paper (because those things are pretty cheap). How much would be involved to actually buy the complete license for one of the "unfinished" shows?
There is absolutely no way we mere fans could know this, and even if we did, it would vary enormously from show to show.

So you mean you are so dissatisfied with everything you have purchased so far that you'll go to the extent of continuing to buy new (and almost always pricey) shows even though you don't get absolute fulfillment from them? What a waste of money, time and resources.
...Wait, what the hell are you talking about? In what bizarro universe can the sentences I typed and posted onto this forum possibly be seen to convey a meaning even remotely resembling how you have interpreted them?

The mind, it is boggled.

[laplacedemon08]

Oh well, I did not start this thread to argue with people. So the rights to distribute those titles were revoked even though Geneon did supposedly purchase them? Or did Dentsu grant those rights to Geneon? And what is the range of prices on the COMPLETE licenses to the "unfinished" series?

More importantly, I still want logical proposals to the distribution of Geneon's unfinished projects.

[something]

Oh well, I did not start this thread to argue with people.
Then try reading what they actually say :sd:

So the rights to distribute those titles were revoked even though Geneon did supposedly purchase them? Or did Dentsu grant those rights to Geneon? And what is the range of prices on the COMPLETE licenses to the "unfinished" series?
As far as I know, Geneon Entertainment USA is *owned by* Dentsu. if Dentsu says "You're done, we're dissolving you and you are not going to release these shows," that's it. End of story. Game over. As for renegotiating the licenses for another company, I'm sure that's a complex legal situation and not one we're privy to the inner workings of.

And of course we can't give you that range of prices. Once again, the anime industry is ridiculously tight-lipped about anything and everything involving sales, costs, license negotiations, etc. We know almost nothing, and it's always been that way.

More importantly, I still want logical proposals to the distribution of Geneon's unfinished projects.
I think the point everyone is trying to make is that there are none other than "wait and see". Licensors will pick up anything they think they can make a profit on and everything else will sit and rot and die, and that's really that. No grand schemes we come up with on a messageboard will have any effect.

So... you just assume to much about what anime fans know about the industry. We're largely shut out from all the meaningful decision making, and only hear about how things turn out when discs do (or don't) get solicited.

[HitokiriShadow]

So the rights to distribute those titles were revoked even though Geneon did supposedly purchase them? Or did Dentsu grant those rights to Geneon?

Geneon bought the right for them, and only them, to produce and distribute in the R1 market. They can't just sell that to someone else. When they formally close up shop, the rights will revert to the original owners and other companies can buy it from them like normal.

And what is the range of prices on the COMPLETE licenses to the "unfinished" series?

The only people that know aren't talking. We've been given ranges in the past, but nothing specific for a specific series. In other words, none of us have an answer for that, except that it is going to vary by show.

More importantly, I still want logical proposals to the distribution of Geneon's unfinished projects.

Uh, someone else gets the rights and finishes it. Or perhaps Geneon can contract someone to distribute for them but the odds of that happening are virtually non-existent. That about covers it, I'm not sure what else you want.

[Sensuifu]

More importantly, I still want logical proposals to the distribution of Geneon's unfinished projects.

You're just going to need to wait and see what's planned. This isn't the first time series have been canceled part-way. If the licenses for the unfinished series aren't saved (which may take a long time anyway and doesn't guarantee discs with a street date), there isn't much that can be done despite all the efforts demanding they be re/released.

[aagranov]

So is Geneon in some kind of legal limbo right now? What happens to all their licenses, do they revert back to Japan and the studios can sell the remaining portion of them to ADV/Viz/Funimation/Rightstuf?

[something]

So is Geneon in some kind of legal limbo right now? What happens to all their licenses, do they revert back to Japan and the studios can sell the remaining portion of them to ADV/Viz/Funimation/Rightstuf?
That's the general assumption, though there are surely other complications in there somewhere.

[aagranov]

So is Geneon in some kind of legal limbo right now? What happens to all their licenses, do they revert back to Japan and the studios can sell the remaining portion of them to ADV/Viz/Funimation/Rightstuf?
That's the general assumption, though there are surely other complications in there somewhere.

I can see with Geneon having partially dubbed a lot of series, and what happens to all their contract voice actors? Can they go work for whichever studio picks up the series they were working on? Personally I don't need the English dub for any of the "on-hold" series as I was watching them with the Japanese dub.

[something]

I can see with Geneon having partially dubbed a lot of series, and what happens to all their contract voice actors? Can they go work for whichever studio picks up the series they were working on? Personally I don't need the English dub for any of the "on-hold" series as I was watching them with the Japanese dub.
Word is that a lot of the dubs are in fact being finished. Also some news from NY Anime Fest indicated there is ongoing interest in Geneon's unlicensed properties.

Unfortunately we can infer nothing concrete from that yet. Just another "wait and see" situation.

[HitokiriShadow]

Geneon didn't dub their own titles, they contracted other companies like New Generations or Bang Zoom to do them. And Bang Zoom confirmed that they had already finished or were working on finishing the titles for which they were contracted. So that's not an issue.

[laplacedemon08]

Geneon didn't dub their own titles, they contracted other companies like New Generations or Bang Zoom to do them. And Bang Zoom confirmed that they had already finished or were working on finishing the titles for which they were contracted. So that's not an issue.

Being that said, and the dubs for most of those series have already been paid for, wouldn't it be safe to say that if Dentsu grants all the distribution rights to another company that it would be much cheaper for the new distributor? Or would the dubbing companies try to charge twice for a service that has already been completed?

[The Great Bear]

Being that said, and the dubs for most of those series have already been paid for, wouldn't it be safe to say that if Dentsu grants all the distribution rights to another company that it would be much cheaper for the new distributor? Or would the dubbing companies try to charge twice for a service that has already been completed?

No, the dub work is already paid for, but the rights to the dub belong to Geneon USA (Dentsu). So, anyone taking over the license to those shows would likely have to pay a fee to license the dub as well (probably not as expensive as paying for a new dub, but it's usually not free either, since Dentsu would want to recover some of the money they spent paying for the dub).

As for the general issue of the status of licenses: As everyone has said, Geneon (Dentsu) has the exclusive rights to distribution in R1 for a fixed period of time. Now, there are possibilities, but there is absolutely nothing that fans can do. This is all going to be decided (or not, if Dentsu decides to simply sit quietly and allow the licensing contracts to lapse) by the guys in suits.

Now, what could happen?

1) Nothing. The licenses will eventually run out in around 7-10 years (I've seen these numbers pop up occasionally for license lengths). At that point, another company can negotiate a new license.

2) IF, and may I repeat IF it is either permitted by the original rights holder(s) or is even written into the original licensing contract, Geneon USA could sub-license a show to another company. Now, none of us here, of course, have seen the actual contracts, so this may not even be a possibility for many of their shows. For shows that were produced by Geneon Japan, where Dentsu may in fact be the sole or primary rights holder, it may be possible for them to simply negotiate new licensing contracts with R1 companies. But Dentsu may not want to do this, for whatever reason.

3) If the original rights holders for shows that Dentsu does not itself hold the rights to are approached by other R1 companies who express serious interest in their shows, they might negotiate with Geneon USA (Dentsu) to revert the rights back to them, probably in exchange for returning a portion of the original licensing fee---i.e. sell the license back to the original holder, who can then negotiate new licenses. This might in fact be an attractive option for Dentsu if they have no intention of releasing the show themselves in future. It would be the only way they could make back any money that they spent to acquire the license.

But like others have said before, there really is nothing that we can do other than sit and wait and hope for an announcement of some sort. Petitions and whining will do nothing.

[laplacedemon08]

Has anyone given the thought that Dentsu could grant Bang Zoom and New Generation permission to do a pay-per-view broadcast of the unfinished shows via Anime Network? I imagine that if Dentsu made that kind of decision that all of the shows could only turn profit (and no losses). Since Dentsu did pay to have the dub done, then I assume that the dub is their property then. With that said, Dentsu could possibly use what they have to produce and distribute the remaining volumes exclusively online (probably with a higher price tag, which I am sure the true fans would not mind paying).

[The Great Bear]

The dubbing companies have nothing to do with this, so I don't know why you're even mentioning them. Geneon USA (Dentsu) hold all the rights to the shows. If they wanted to make a deal with a broadcaster of any sort (be it The Anime Network, Funi's channel, Starz, etc.), they don't have to grant the rights to anyone else. They have the rights to do it themselves.

That said, I highly doubt this is going to happen. Dentsu seems to have made it clear they simply want to close up shop and leave. Probably because they've taken a huge hit this past year:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-09-29/dentsu-to-post-y5-billion-loss-on-geneon's-downsizing

They're likely to take a huge tax write-off and call it a day. Frankly, if Geneon USA were going to be revived in any way, I would have expected an announcement by now, but the fact that there has not been a single peep out of them means it is more than likely they're finished. It makes me sad to say it, but there it is.

Now, this doesn't mean that I have no hope the unreleased shows will ever be released. But it means that it's more likely to happen later than sooner, barring a surprise announcement that another R1 company is going to pick up the shows.

[laplacedemon08]

Instead of going out of business, why doesn't Dentsu do something smart and actually sell the licenses to most of the shows that they hold? When the licenses expire, I will not care for any of the shows that are "unfinished" right now. The best time to act is right now. I believe that there are a lot of possibilities besides the sit and wait option.

[Buckeye]

The thing with the dubbing companies is that whoever license rescues Geneon's remaining titles will be spending less to distribute since the dubbing has already been done and paid for by Geneon. We know for sure that all unfinished titles have the dub completed and dubbing has started for Guardian of the Sacred Spirit by Bang Zoom. Since most R1 companies are fan-oriented and supportive of each other for the most part, I am pretty sure we'll see them. But until then, we won't know what's going on until whatever is left of Geneon comes out and tell us what the future plans are for current licenses.

[The Great Bear]

Instead of going out of business, why doesn't Dentsu do something smart and actually sell the licenses to most of the shows that they hold? When the licenses expire, I will not care for any of the shows that are "unfinished" right now. The best time to act is right now. I believe that there are a lot of possibilities besides the sit and wait option.

That's what we would all like, but Dentsu might prefer to state it all as a loss on their balance sheets and use it for a huge tax write-off. If they sell the licenses, they can't do that, or at least they can't claim as much loss, since they would be getting money back for the licenses they resell.

[The Great Bear]

The thing with the dubbing companies is that whoever license rescues Geneon's remaining titles will be spending less to distribute since the dubbing has already been done and paid for by Geneon.

All very true, but it's all in Dentsu's hands. As you know, until they something, anything, there's nothing to do but wait.

[rooboy]

Instead of going out of business, why doesn't Dentsu do something smart and actually sell the licenses to most of the shows that they hold?That's what we would all like, but Dentsu might prefer to state it all as a loss on their balance sheets and use it for a huge tax write-off. If they sell the licenses, they can't do that, or at least they can't claim as much loss, since they would be getting money back for the licenses they resell. Also it's important to note again, in case anyone gets any funny ideas, these rights only apply to those shows wherein they owned the original distribution rights to begin with - not shows they licensed from someone else.

[Ty]

I think the sad reality is that none of the other companies have the time, energy or resources right now to attempt to inherit Geneon's mess. When you factor in they were mostly poorly selling titles that certainly reduces the incentive further. I want to see them finished as much as anybody, especially by somebody like Right Stuf would would do a good job, but I just can't see it happening. Those three lonely volumes of When They Cry on my shelf are a reminder now not to take the anime we still do get for granted.

[laplacedemon08]

That's what we would all like, but Dentsu might prefer to state it all as a loss on their balance sheets and use it for a huge tax write-off. If they sell the licenses, they can't do that, or at least they can't claim as much loss, since they would be getting money back for the licenses they resell.

So shouldn't we be counting on Dentsu shutting down then? When Dentsu does close shop, that would mean that Dentsu has relinquished their hold to the rights, as a whole, to all of the licenses of the animes that they have. Wouldn't it? They will not exist, so any violation to the licensing rights will not matter because Dentsu will not "exist". Also, could you please explain the rules and rights of tax write-offs as it relates to this?

[LordGeo]

That's what we would all like, but Dentsu might prefer to state it all as a loss on their balance sheets and use it for a huge tax write-off. If they sell the licenses, they can't do that, or at least they can't claim as much loss, since they would be getting money back for the licenses they resell.

So shouldn't we be counting on Dentsu shutting down then? When Dentsu does close shop, that would mean that Dentsu has relinquished their hold to the rights, as a whole, to all of the licenses of the animes that they have. Wouldn't it? They will not exist, so any violation to the licensing rights will not matter because Dentsu will not "exist". Also, could you please explain the rules and rights of tax write-offs as it relates to this?


dentsu is not closing shop. They are still much more profitable in Japan than here.

Geneon USA was pretty much dentsu USA, and that is gone. dentsu overall is still very much alive.

[The Great Bear]

So shouldn't we be counting on Dentsu shutting down then? When Dentsu does close shop, that would mean that Dentsu has relinquished their hold to the rights, as a whole, to all of the licenses of the animes that they have. Wouldn't it? They will not exist, so any violation to the licensing rights will not matter because Dentsu will not "exist". Also, could you please explain the rules and rights of tax write-offs as it relates to this?


Like LordGeo mentioned, Dentsu isn't going to fold. It's much too big to do so, without signaling a major problem in the Japanese economy as a whole (yeah, they're that big). And overall, they're not in such bad shape that they need to do so.

Geneon USA is probably dead, but that's unimportant, as in that case the rights would still be held by Dentsu as the owner of Geneon USA. License contracts will have clauses concerning successor companies if one of the parties should be bought/merged or goes out of business. In this case, Dentsu will succeed to all of Geneon USA's rights and assets (as well as debts).

As for tax write-offs, I cannot claim detailed knowledge of the Japanese tax code, but if it is at all like American tax law (and it's probably not too different in this case), when businesses take heavy losses, they can take a charge against revenues to lower their tax liability. This is likely what Dentsu will do in this case. They'll use the losses sustained in the winding down of Geneon USA to reduce their tax liability.

Still, without official word from Dentsu or from Geneon USA, we really have nothing but speculation here. But the longer the silence persists, the more likely it is that we're not going to see a revival of Geneon USA, or a quick appearance of the licenses still in limbo.

[YUAchip]

I actually expect that the unreleased titles will eventually be completed. I'm no expert but from what I've seen on the situation GENEON USA wan't bleeding cash but wasn't exactly raking in piles of it either. It all sounds like DENTSU cutting costs by closing a subsidiary that was performing functions they could do cheaper themselves or by outsourcing to someone else. They have eliminated a layer of cost which dosen't automatically mean that they're abandoning the market. I'm guessing the titles will show up once DENTSU finds the cheapest way to work it.
Chip

[Chacranajxy]

La Revolucion is fun and all but... naw, I'm just going to continue doing what I want.

[Sheena]

Best strategy on our part is basically to buy recent Geneon titles. Say you want the second season of Black Lagoon, well make sure you purchased the first season volumes. Same with Rozen Maiden Traumend. Purchasing the first season will make a stronger case for the show being profitable and desired than any internet petition.

I'm sure Geneon USA and Dentsu would probably be interested in having another R1 company buy back some of their licenses for very successful shows to recoup losses.

And use this Geneon fiasco to convince more anime fans to do the right thing and purchase legit DVDs (vs. just downloading rips or buying bootlegs - we all know some who do) as a way to make sure other companies don't follow the same way and more anime gets distributed on R1 DVDs. This kind of stuff is very often downplayed and justified by various (usually income level-related) excuses but it becomes plain obvious how damaging it is when a company like Geneon closes shop or discontinues releases.

Outside of that, wait and see. It's pretty much out of our hands to find a resolution.

[laplacedemon08]

Best strategy on our part is basically to buy recent Geneon titles. Say you want the second season of Black Lagoon, well make sure you purchased the first season volumes. Same with Rozen Maiden Traumend. Purchasing the first season will make a stronger case for the show being profitable and desired than any internet petition.

I'm sure Geneon USA and Dentsu would probably be interested in having another R1 company buy back some of their licenses for very successful shows to recoup losses.

So, if I make a credible Geneon purchase from someone like The Right Stuf International, then my purchase will be accounted for and can be presented in a sales record? I'm really not the type of person to sit around with my thumbs up my ass, and if I could, I would buy the license to [a select few] of those shows. That's the reason that I was asking that before.

[Lego]

One Word...

Kadokawa

[something]

So shouldn't we be counting on Dentsu shutting down then?
Dentsu makes xbox look small. Dentsu is enormous. They are far more than just anime.

Dentsu is going nowhere.

[relentlessflame]

I actually expect that the unreleased titles will eventually be completed. I'm no expert but from what I've seen on the situation GENEON USA wan't bleeding cash but wasn't exactly raking in piles of it either. It all sounds like DENTSU cutting costs by closing a subsidiary that was performing functions they could do cheaper themselves or by outsourcing to someone else. They have eliminated a layer of cost which dosen't automatically mean that they're abandoning the market. I'm guessing the titles will show up once DENTSU finds the cheapest way to work it.
Chip
In fact, this seems to be basically what's happening, except that instead of closing the entire subsidiary to eliminate a layer of cost, they closed one of the subsidiary's business areas (marketing / sales / distribution), leaving the production wing intact. Dub and sub work is continuing to be contracted out -- and not just on shows that were already partially released. Shows like Nanoha and Zero no Tsukaima are being actively worked on right now. The issue is figuring out how to distribute them and as you say, that's probably just a matter of Geneon USA finding the cheapest way to work it out.

Despite a lot of the other comments in this thread, the evidence points to this being a refocusing/restructuring as opposed to an outright closure. So I definitely think the unreleased titles will be completed and released in due time.

[vtr9kvictor]

First, I got one of the LE Saber clocks.

Second, the only one of your points I know anything about was the first one. ADV was supposed to be negotiating for distribution rights for Geneons titles, but Geneon just backed out, all of sudden like. Like they were flipping all of us the figurative 'Bird' or something and denying us our beloved Rozen Maiden and Karin. As far as I know, no comment on why Geneon pulled out of the talks has ever been issued, but I may be wrong.

In the meantime I sulk, and look on Geneon with anger and disdain.

[dunno001]

Instead of going out of business, why doesn't Dentsu do something smart and actually sell the licenses to most of the shows that they hold? When the licenses expire, I will not care for any of the shows that are "unfinished" right now. The best time to act is right now. I believe that there are a lot of possibilities besides the sit and wait option.

**Please note that the contents of this following post are based on what I know about contracts in general, and may or may not be factors.**

We all know Geneon USA closed up shop. When a subsidiary closes up shop, the rights usually revert to the parent company, in this case, Dentsu. (I'll get to the usually part in a bit.) Now, Dentsu doesn't distribute in the USA, so these licenses are doing nothing for them. Why not try to sell them? That's where it gets murky. Depending on the contract wording, Geneon would most likely have exclusive distro rights. Selling said rights would invalidate the contract Geneon has with the Japanese, thus, the contract would need to be reopened for reworking. We can safely assume that there will be a 'profit-sharing' clause, in that any money Geneon makes from a series, part of it will go back to the licensors. (Whether it's sales-based or profit-based may vary, however.) Geneon would get a one-time payment for outright selling of these, which I would then count on the Japanese licensor objecting to only getting the one fee, hence the need to reopen said contract. And while it's open, the Japanese may want to rework some more things in their favor. (It's highly speculated that contract definitions are why Viz's manga for Inuyasha is still flipped.)

But we have that 'usually' part I mentioned; I guess a fancier term would be an escape clause. We very rarely see these on the consumer end; the best case is Toei revoking some of the rights to One Piece from 4Kids. This can vary wildly all depending on the wording of the contract. To speculate, there may be a clause where if Geneon were to close up, it would immeadiately revert back to the license. Another may be that a series must start to be released within 18 months. How about that a series must see X in sales or units? Lack of intent to finish releasing a show? This list goes on. The licensors have expressed interest in getting these series back to market, so I would count on anything with an escape clause having it invoked to at least get the title back to an availiable for licensing state. But if one's not present in the contract, it may take a contract expiry.

Overall, it would just be so much paperwork to go through, that it's far easier for Dentsu to just take the hit and write it all off, letting any contracts go as they may. Even the dubs that are being done may still be in murky water; some contracts may state that these will also revert to the licensor, and not stay with Geneon/Dentsu. Others may stay in Dentsu's care, and if one of those series is licensed, Dentsu MAY choose to sell their dub to the new licensor, showing it as a sale of assets on the balance sheet.

Now sure, I'd love to see Geneon's shows back on the market. (Especially Kyo Kara Maoh...) But, there's just so much to go through with all the contracts that it will take a while before we will know anything... if we ever do.

[itsuka]

That's what we would all like, but Dentsu might prefer to state it all as a loss on their balance sheets and use it for a huge tax write-off. If they sell the licenses, they can't do that, or at least they can't claim as much loss, since they would be getting money back for the licenses they resell.

So shouldn't we be counting on Dentsu shutting down then? When Dentsu does close shop, that would mean that Dentsu has relinquished their hold to the rights, as a whole, to all of the licenses of the animes that they have. Wouldn't it? They will not exist, so any violation to the licensing rights will not matter because Dentsu will not "exist". Also, could you please explain the rules and rights of tax write-offs as it relates to this?


Even if Dentsu uses the loss for tax reasons, it would be another matter in their new book year (starting from April 1 2008). It might be advantageous then to start selling off the remains - licenses, stock, distribution deals - maybe even the whole Geneon USA division including the rights and stock they own, so that they profit from the loss in one year, and profit from selling the remains in the other year.

Also, I understood that Geneon USA may have closed down the office, but still officially exists, that means that the licenses and stock are still their property and may not automatically go back for re-licensing. The easiest way out would be to try to sell Geneon USA including licenses and stock to another party, which would probably far more easy than trying to sell the licenses separately. There's still a lot of monetary value involved in what Geneon USA owns, even if it's dubious how much that's actually worth on the current market. But with the right price, there's always a buyer. The tricky part is how much anyone is willing to invest in the current market climate. Geneon has a huge back catalogue with some quite popular series that could still generate revenu. Wouldn't Funimation, Bandai Entertainment or ADV love to add something like Trigun or Last Exile to their catalogue if they can have it cheap?

I can't imagine Dentsu simply throwing away that much in salvage value, unless there are some very weird, unbusiness-like sentiments involved.

My hunch is that salvage scenario's are being discussed right now, to be implemented for the new book year from April 1 onwards.

[The Great Bear]

…they closed one of the subsidiary's business areas (marketing / sales / distribution), leaving the production wing intact. Dub and sub work is continuing to be contracted out -- and not just on shows that were already partially released. Shows like Nanoha and Zero no Tsukaima are being actively worked on right now.

There are no indications that Nanoha and Zero no Tsukaima are getting dubbed, just that the translation and sub work is being done.

It's wrong to say that "dub and sub work is continuing to be contracted out," implying that new contracts are being made. No, all of these contracts were already signed and in place before Geneon USA closed up shop in September. I'm sure if a former Geneon employee wished (and were able) to confirm this, this is the case.

As some support, see this old post by a former Geneon employee: http://www.animeondvd.com/forum/showpost.php?post/540367/

As you can see, they were ordered to finish what production was on the table, and then shut down. So, Nanoha and ZnT are being worked on, but only because the contracts were signed before the "stop work" order came down from the top.

Geneon USA is not active in any way at the moment.

Now, Itsuka has brought up an interesting point. If the new fiscal year for Dentsu starts April 1, then after that date, we might hear something as Dentsu begins to salvage the assets from Geneon USA, after taking a large accounting charge on it for the current fiscal year. Hopefully, some of the shows in limbo will be rescued. I don't know about the entire Geneon catalogue. That would be a large expense, and I'm not sure that another company would want to accept it all. But who knows?

[LordGeo]

Hopefully, some of the shows in limbo will be rescued. I don't know about the entire Geneon catalogue. That would be a large expense, and I'm not sure that another company would want to accept it all. But who knows?

I would think the shows that are unfinished but are close to finishing (Kyou kara Maoh, Law of Ueki, etc.) will probably have better chances than the titles that just got started (Shonen Onmyouji, Story of Saiunkoku, etc.) of getting rescued.

The unreleased shows (Deltora Quest, Zero, Nanoha, etc.) probably have a really good chance of getting rescued.

As for the older stuff, that's a completely different story all together...

[aagranov]

Basically if we don't get these finished series, then it's a big middle finger to fans who invested in series like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and Black Lagoon.

[something]

Basically if we don't get these finished series, then it's a big middle finger to fans who invested in series like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and Black Lagoon.
More or less, but we're at Dentsu's mercy there, and unfortunately I don't think Dentsu cares enough even to lift that middle finger towards us.

[laplacedemon08]

Basically if we don't get these finished series, then it's a big middle finger to fans who invested in series like Higurashi no Naku Koro ni and Black Lagoon.

Try not to be angry. That will only make things worse for you. When the licenses run out on all of the "unfinished" shows, I, along with thousands of other fans, will no longer be interested in those shows (and may not even be interested in anime, period). Geneon's best bet would be to actually release the remaining volumes to [what was] the currently releasing shows when the new fiscal year begins for them. Geneon shouldn't want to go out with bad impressions. My advice to all of the people out there who anticipated the release of those volumes would be to just occupy your time in something else (something that is actually productive).

[relentlessflame]

There are no indications that Nanoha and Zero no Tsukaima are getting dubbed, just that the translation and sub work is being done.

It's wrong to say that "dub and sub work is continuing to be contracted out," implying that new contracts are being made. No, all of these contracts were already signed and in place before Geneon USA closed up shop in September. I'm sure if a former Geneon employee wished (and were able) to confirm this, this is the case.

As some support, see this old post by a former Geneon employee: http://www.animeondvd.com/forum/showpost.php?post/540367/

As you can see, they were ordered to finish what production was on the table, and then shut down. So, Nanoha and ZnT are being worked on, but only because the contracts were signed before the "stop work" order came down from the top.

Geneon USA is not active in any way at the moment.
This somewhat flies in the face of comments made by Andrew Kent, subtitler for Nanoha and ZnT, on his blog (http://avatar.mee.nu/) and elsewhere on the Internet (in particular, on a forum I can't link to). His contract was signed after they announced the closure of the marketing and sales division. He has also commented before that the shows were being dubbed. Perhaps you could say that being "on the table" (as per the ex-employee's post) wasn't about whether or not production work had started, but whether the license had already been acquired and announced. In that case, it would seem to fit the current evidence and correlation of comments.

Obviously no one can know the full story except those on the inside, and all we have to go on is comments made here and there by various people. But the explanation you provided doesn't seem to quite fit all the statements being made.

[something]

Geneon shouldn't want to go out with bad impressions.
Once again, what Geneon wanted in this whole ordeal seems to have been basically irrelevant. I'm sure Geneon, or at least the majority of its employees, would love to finish the shows.

But they don't have that option. They aren't doing this on purpose. Asking Geneon to do *anything* at this point is just looking in the wrong place.

[laplacedemon08]

Ok, things are still not exactly clicking. Geneon went out of business (at least with marketing and distribution) because Dentsu Japan shut them down for creating a 42 million dollar debt with them, or Geneon created that debt for themselves?

Does anyone know exactly how they went into such debt? I can understand if they were losing money on some titles or something, but did they lose that money because they had such great hopes that the shows would sell that they massly over-produced and had loads and loads of DVDs lying around? Or were they still keeping everything in print and just nothing was selling?

I would also like to know what happened to their remaining stock of DVDs? Were they sold, burnt, or do they still have them?

There are so many things that have yet to be answered, but I don't think that everyone here is in the dark about the issue.

[LordGeo]

Well, here's one example:

Hajime no Ippo; Geneon released it as Fighting Spirit as a trilingual release (though apparently the Spanish dub was NOT their creation and instead was already available, so Geneon used it).

Anyway, and this is pretty much the only time we've been gievn such info, we have been told that for Ippo to just break even, each single needed to sell 15,000 copies.

Vol. 1 sold about 5,000 copies, and was their biggest seller for Ippo. By the time the last Volume and the TV special were released, Ippo was selling only 1,000 copies at most. At most!

This is the best example we can give you, since we were actually given this info, but the main idea was that Geneon released shows that were "for the fans" and not "for the mainstream". Therefore, they just didn't sell quite as well as other shows.

Yes, they had Trigun, the Tenchi TV shows, Hellsing and the like, but they obviously could only do such much for Geneon.

[The Great Bear]

This somewhat flies in the face of comments made by Andrew Kent, subtitler for Nanoha and ZnT, on his blog (http://avatar.mee.nu/) and elsewhere on the Internet (in particular, on a forum I can't link to). His contract was signed after they announced the closure of the marketing and sales division.

That's entirely possible, since the production department was not laid off at the same time as Marketing and Sales. And even then, Geneon must still have at least one person coordinating the remaining contract work they've given out. But those contracts may have been in negotiations before the "stop work" order. And even once the stop work order was given, the production department may have been told to spend what was left of their budget. As people who have to deal with budgets know well, if it's appropriated, spend it.

He has also commented before that the shows were being dubbed.

I read his blog and the comments, including the one where he mentions it's being dubbed. I'm not going to doubt him, since he is privy to information that I, obviously, am not, but I find it odd that there's been no word, no word at all about where they are being dubbed. Bang Zoom has been out front about Rozen Maiden Traumend being completed, and Ocean has let us know that Black Lagoon: Second Barrage, is being completed, and that further work was done on Saiunkoku. If Nanoha and ZnT are being dubbed, why is it being kept "ultra top secret" ?? It might be that they (the production staff at Geneon) may have told him that the shows were getting dubbed, and that may in fact have been the plan, but if they are being dubbed, why the secrecy? So, until there's word of a studio and a cast list, I can't take this as a certainty.

Obviously no one can know the full story except those on the inside, and all we have to go on is comments made here and there by various people. But the explanation you provided doesn't seem to quite fit all the statements being made.

Actually, nothing that Kent has posted is really at odds with what I've said. Currently, Geneon USA, as far as productions, is not active. Those properties that they were already working on are having work continued on them. That includes Nanoha and ZnT. The licenses were announced some time ago (Nanoha at Anime Expo, and ZnT at Anime Boston), so they were already in the planning stages and set for production when the ADV deal fell through and Geneon headed for sleep mode. They are finishing what was on the table at the time, but they are not working on any new shows beyond the last licenses they made.

If you want to see Geneon as active because they are finishing up the last few licenses they acquired, that's fine, but for me that's not really being active. For once those projects are done, that's it. And Geneon is not going to release them, so until a distributor is found, it really makes very little difference.

[something]

Ok, things are still not exactly clicking. Geneon went out of business (at least with marketing and distribution) because Dentsu Japan shut them down for creating a 42 million dollar debt with them, or Geneon created that debt for themselves?
I have a feeling you're seriously misinterpreting that number, wherever you got it. What number we have seen (the exact figure I don't remember) was related to closing costs, which encompasses any debt, costs of closing up shop, potential losses from things no longer to be released, etc etc etc. We have no idea how much if any "debt" there was from Geneon Entertainment USA, in the sense you mean it.

Nor do we even know why Dentsu shut them down. Stop and reread that. We don't know why. So you're asking a lot from us when you ask specific questions.

We can make obvious guesses, like "they weren't performing well enough" (christ, isn't that vague?), but we really, truly do not know precisely why, why now, and why in such an ugly and abrupt way.

I would also like to know what happened to their remaining stock of DVDs? Were they sold, burnt, or do they still have them?
You'll never guess what I'm going to say... "We don't know!" =P

We've heard "There's plenty of stock out there" from John Sirabella of Media Blasters, and we've also seen stores going out of stock on Geneon stuff left and right. We're getting conflicting information on this.

There are so many things that have yet to be answered, but I don't think that everyone here is in the dark about the issue.
Why not? We regular users don't work for Geneon or Dentsu or anyone related to the situation, and the people who did or do probably can't talk specifics.

This isn't strange, it isn't uncommon, it's just the way the industry works. Fans just aren't involved in things at this level.

[relentlessflame]

If you want to see Geneon as active because they are finishing up the last few licenses they acquired, that's fine, but for me that's not really being active. For once those projects are done, that's it. And Geneon is not going to release them, so until a distributor is found, it really makes very little difference.
Well, once those projects are done, who knows. Indeed, I see them as active because they're actively producing the shows they had announced as licensed. Is it possible that they may stick around to coordinate production on Rondo Robe/Geneon JP-produced shows (Ã* la Kadokawa USA)? Who knows... Rather than taking a "they're good as dead, all hope is lost" view, even Shizumaru (in the post you linked to earlier) mentioned that they'd have some sort of a role as a license holder. What'll come of that? Maybe nothing, maybe something -- time will tell... as long as they still have employees doing stuff, they're not dead yet.

[The Great Bear]

I would also like to know what happened to their remaining stock of DVDs? Were they sold, burnt, or do they still have them?

There was a deadline for retailer returns of 11/30/07. After that point retailers either were stuck with what they had, or had returned it to Geneon for credit.

As far as we know (and we're all just fans if we don't have red letter names), Geneon's warehouse got whatever returns were sent back. What will happen to those returns and whatever stock is in the warehouse after Geneon USA plans to close up shop? That is the $64,000 question.

[The Great Bear]

Is it possible that they may stick around to coordinate production on Rondo Robe/Geneon JP-produced shows (Ã* la Kadokawa USA)? Who knows...

That's the hope, but the longer they stay silent, the more I can't help but take a negative view towards their further doing anything.
Perhaps we'll hear something in January. In "the letter" this one (http://www.animeondvd.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/23800/), it notes that the deadline for MDF claims (Geneon's Marketing Development Fund--I am guessing this, I had to Google what the hell an MDF was--it's part of the relationship between Geneon and retailers, partnering for marketing of products) is Dec 31st. So, that's the last deadline for activity by Geneon with the outside world.

Will they reemerge after Jan 1st and announce what they're going to do?

Or will they quietly disappear?

All we can do is wait.

[laplacedemon08]

There was a deadline for retailer returns of 11/30/07. After that point retailers either were stuck with what they had, or had returned it to Geneon for credit.

Hmm, so I guess I could pull the "non-returnable" card on all retailers that currently have any Geneon titles in stock then. LOL jk. There are certainly a lot more investigations to be done. Hopefully, someone who lives in Long Beach, California will get to the heart of this issue ;).

[roastedpekingduck]

Well, here's one example:

Hajime no Ippo; Geneon released it as Fighting Spirit as a trilingual release (though apparently the Spanish dub was NOT their creation and instead was already available, so Geneon used it).

Anyway, and this is pretty much the only time we've been gievn such info, we have been told that for Ippo to just break even, each single needed to sell 15,000 copies.

Vol. 1 sold about 5,000 copies, and was their biggest seller for Ippo. By the time the last Volume and the TV special were released, Ippo was selling only 1,000 copies at most. At most!

This is the best example we can give you, since we were actually given this info, but the main idea was that Geneon released shows that were "for the fans" and not "for the mainstream". Therefore, they just didn't sell quite as well as other shows.

Yes, they had Trigun, the Tenchi TV shows, Hellsing and the like, but they obviously could only do such much for Geneon.
Dubbing Fighting Spirit twice must have contributed to some significant monetary damage. While a Spanish dub may be cheaper than an English dub, a dub across 70-something episodes, I don't care whether it's in Spanish, Tagalog, or Afrikaans, isn't going to be cheap.

[One Vorlon]

. . . How much does an anime title need to sell before it is considered to be deemed as "decent". How much in cost does it require for the costs of distribution. Hopefully you don't mean something simple like DVD cases, DVDs, and paper (because those things are pretty cheap). How much would be involved to actually buy the complete license for one of the "unfinished" shows?

As far as I know, the exact costs involved have never been publicly released. However, based on standard business practices, we can get some idea of what it cost Geneon.

Rather than use generic examples, let's look at Rozen Maiden Traumend (volume 1). The rule of thumb in business is to sell for twice what it costs you. As with most of its titles, Geneon suggests retailers charge $30 for RM. That would mean retailers probably pay about $15. So it probably costs Geneon about $7.50 (in licensing, manufacturing, etc.) to produce each copy.

Thus the total cost to Geneon is $7.50 for every disk they produce, and (my understanding is that) the average run is about 20,000 to 30,000 disks. So Geneon probably paid $150,000-$225,000 to bring volume 1 of Rozen Maiden Traumend to the U.S. market.

Therefore, in order to simply break even, Geneon would need to sell 10,000-15,000 copies of Rozen Maiden Traumend. As for having "decent" sales, I'd guess Geneon would want to make at least a 10% profit on their investment. That would require sales of another 1,000-1,500 copies, so Rozen Maiden Traumend would need to sell 11,000-16,500 copies to reach "decent" seller status.

[relentlessflame]

Thus the total cost to Geneon is $7.50 for every disk they produce, and (my understanding is that) the average run is about 20,000 to 30,000 disks. So Geneon probably paid $150,000-$225,000 to bring volume 1 of Rozen Maiden Traumend to the U.S. market.

Therefore, in order to simply break even, Geneon would need to sell 10,000-15,000 copies of Rozen Maiden Traumend. As for having "decent" sales, I'd guess Geneon would want to make at least a 10% profit on their investment. That would require sales of another 1,000-1,500 copies, so Rozen Maiden Traumend would need to sell 11,000-16,500 copies to reach "decent" seller status.
A 20,000 to 30,000 run for a show like Rozen Maiden is just way, way too high. There's no way they targeted that large a market for a show that didn't air on TV. It didn't even sell 1/3 of that much in Japan. I think 1/2 or 1/3 of those numbers would seem more feasible (and even then, pretty darn optimistic)...

[LordGeo]

Well, here's one example:

Hajime no Ippo; Geneon released it as Fighting Spirit as a trilingual release (though apparently the Spanish dub was NOT their creation and instead was already available, so Geneon used it).

Anyway, and this is pretty much the only time we've been gievn such info, we have been told that for Ippo to just break even, each single needed to sell 15,000 copies.

Vol. 1 sold about 5,000 copies, and was their biggest seller for Ippo. By the time the last Volume and the TV special were released, Ippo was selling only 1,000 copies at most. At most!

This is the best example we can give you, since we were actually given this info, but the main idea was that Geneon released shows that were "for the fans" and not "for the mainstream". Therefore, they just didn't sell quite as well as other shows.

Yes, they had Trigun, the Tenchi TV shows, Hellsing and the like, but they obviously could only do such much for Geneon.
Dubbing Fighting Spirit twice must have contributed to some significant monetary damage. While a Spanish dub may be cheaper than an English dub, a dub across 70-something episodes, I don't care whether it's in Spanish, Tagalog, or Afrikaans, isn't going to be cheap.

That's why I mentioned that thing in the parentheses:

"though apparently the Spanish dub was NOT their creation and instead was already available, so Geneon used it"

If the dub was already available, then Geneon did not have to pay money for it, much like when an anime is license rescued and the previously done dub comes with it.

But I'm not completely sure about this, but it would make sense for it to be a trilingual release then.

[something]

If the dub was already available, then Geneon did not have to pay money for it, much like when an anime is license rescued and the previously done dub comes with it.
But I'm not completely sure about this, but it would make sense for it to be a trilingual release then.
Well, who had the rights to the dub? If it was someone behind a Spanish-language release, I'd imagine they'd be loathe to just give it up for free. And if it had reverted to the Japanese at some point, or always technically been "theirs", it might have been included in the license fee somehow?

It just seems like the costs would have to be hidden somewhere. Nothing is every truly free.

[Whoomp]

This thread is really interesting. I do not have any opinions of my own to contribute with other than "we will just have to wait and see." Hopefully Dentsu will get to their senses and relicense Geneon USAs titles when that becomes available.

[something]

I do not have any opinions of my own to contribute with other than "we will just have to wait and see."
Don't worry, neither do we either, we just take a lot more words to say it =P

[One Vorlon]

Thus the total cost to Geneon is $7.50 for every disk they produce, and (my understanding is that) the average run is about 20,000 to 30,000 disks. So Geneon probably paid $150,000-$225,000 to bring volume 1 of Rozen Maiden Traumend to the U.S. market.

Therefore, in order to simply break even, Geneon would need to sell 10,000-15,000 copies of Rozen Maiden Traumend. As for having "decent" sales, I'd guess Geneon would want to make at least a 10% profit on their investment. That would require sales of another 1,000-1,500 copies, so Rozen Maiden Traumend would need to sell 11,000-16,500 copies to reach "decent" seller status.
A 20,000 to 30,000 run for a show like Rozen Maiden is just way, way too high. There's no way they targeted that large a market for a show that didn't air on TV. It didn't even sell 1/3 of that much in Japan. I think 1/2 or 1/3 of those numbers would seem more feasible (and even then, pretty darn optimistic)...

Although I just used Rozen Maiden Traumend as an example (feel free to substitute any other series title in its place), Geneon's pursuit of niche titles may well be one of the factors that led it to his downfall- for while we don't have all of the figures, we do know that there are some fixed costs that Geneon wouldn't be able to get around (whether they publish 5 copies or 5 million).

For example: in his Answerman column, Zac of ANN (www.animenewsnetwork.com) quoted industry insiders as saying that it costs $20,000 to make an English language dub of a single episode. So for a 4 episode disk, thats $80,000 - before even a single disk is pressed.

And while Geneon could keep production costs down with a smaller run, there's a limit to how much that can help. Raw materials (labels, blank dvds, cases) cost about a dollar a disk. So while a run of 20-30k dvds would cost $20,000 to $30,000, a run of 5,000 would be $5,000.

So while the savings would be $15,000-$25,000, the actual per disk cost would rise substantially. Since the cost to produce the English language version is fixed, the more dvds in a run, the more that expense can be spread out. So while in a 20k run, $4.00 of each dvd sale goes to pay for the dub, in the 5k run, the dub takes a $16 bite out of the sales price.

So Geneon can't really afford to do a 5k run (at least not with a $30 MSRP). And remember - this is before we factor in costs such as licensing, marketing and pressing the dvds. Unless Geneon thought Rozen Maiden would be picked up by Adult Swim (or another tv channel), they have to have believed RM could sell 10k+ copies (or else they would have had to price it much, much higher). Whether that belief was justifed, however, is another question entirely.

[mattm]

Personally, I expect that we'll hear something about Geneon's titles in fiscal 2008. The fact that there's translation and dub work being done indicates that Dentsu expects to do something with them. I know that people keep talking about this work being 'under contract' and 'already paid for', but given the timelines involved (does anyone really think that a long show like Saiunkoku is mostly dubbed already?) and the large costs involved, I seriously doubt that Geneon USA has already paid in full for all the work that is still going on. It is far more likely that companies like Geneon & Bandai, who use outside contractors for dubs and translations, are paying on a monthly or quarterly cycle. If Dentsu's intent was really to pull the plug and flip the bird at the US market, they wouldn't have really cared about maintaining friendly relations with their US contractors and would have stopped future payments for the work in progress. Hence, the work would stop. That it hasn't suggests that Dentsu has at least vague pans for their next steps.

I expect Dentsu is cleaning up their titles to ease the process of getting the licenses resold. There seems to be very little chance that the original rights holders have escape clauses that would allow them to pull the titles from Dentsu entirely; we'd probably have heard something by now, at least for the titles that were selling pretty well, like Hellsing. It is also highly unlikely that anyone would have allowed Dentsu the right to sublicense the titles without referral to the original rights holders, so there's no chance of this becoming a two-way negotiation between Dentsu and other North American licensors.

Thus, no matter what happens, any effort to get Dentsu's licenses back in print in North America will involve three-way negotiations between Dentsu, the original rights holders, and whatever American licensors are looking to pick up the shows. Having a complete package available for sale, including full subs and dubs in the can, will simplify the negotiations. Since there are 3 primary competitors for most of the titles (ADV, FUNI & Bandai), two of which do their dubs in house, partial dubs would likely be a bone of contention. Completed dubs give Dentsu leverage in any negotiations (since they own them outright) and make the whole package more palatable to other US licensors, since theoretically they could be ready to go straight to the duplicators the instant a final deal is inked. Thus, I believe that Dentsu's continued work on translating and dubbing their new titles is an investment in the future recovery of some of their lost licensing costs, which makes it likely that they're going to look to get them back on the market soon (just not before fiscal 2007 is over).

[presicion25]

Does anyone think that other companies such as Funimation, ADV, Gonzo, Anime Works, Bandai or Viz Media will acquire and release any of Geneon's unfinished releases in the U.S, or release any series that Geneon never released in the U.S? or maybe even re-release something they already did?

[Whoomp]

At the moment, no.

[Redcoffin]

This question has been debated a lot, and the general conclusion has been that the economics and licensing issues are a lot more complicated than they seem. Eventually some of the more marketable properties will probably see a complete release in North America, but others may never be finished.

[karen0586]

I'm sure that those series like Black Lagoon and hellsing Ultimate won't have any problems with getting someone else to distribute what's left while other more obscure titles will probably never get another release.

Although, until someone actually talks about it, we can do nothing but speculate on the situation.

[Buckeye]

We've discussed this quite alot and in short, until we get to the bottom of things, we will not know. We have no definitive answers unless someone from Geneon or Dentsu says that their licenses are up for grabs.

[Beagle-san]

Short answer: yes.

Long answer: Eventually some titles will be licensed. We've no way of knowing when or which, and it's likely, almost a certainty that some will never be picked up.

Failure to license will simply mean an end to revenue, any type of revenue, from those titles...as fans will, out of a lack of any choice, turn to the already burgeoning fan sub market.

The vicious circle contains to feed itself. Geneon USA goes under, with much blame placed upon fan subs. Fan subs exist due to Japanese companies sloooooow licensing and releasing of shows broadcast in Japan. American companies feel the sting of losing buyers to streaming fan subs. Fewer titles are licensed in the USA. Fans turn to fan sub streams to watch what doesn't get licensed. Right now, if the entire anime industry in America to go under, anime fans would then have no recourse but to go to fan subs. And so it goes.

The Japanese have long been inflexible in their anime marketing and licensing, and are now paying the piper. Even more so are the American companies which have to deal with the handicaps of parochial Japanese business models.

What will be interesting to see will be how titles will be released and marketed once Geneon finally gets around to doing it.

We might see the new licensees releasing some interrupted titles as sets, making the buyers rebuy episodes they've already purchased (this isn't the new licensee being a bad guy, simply trying to make a profit due to a show already having had a partial release).

But until we have the Japanese market wakeup to the notion that it needs to do simultaneous releases of some sort (make that several sorts), the vivious circle will continue.

[LordGeo]

The only hints we've seen are FUNi mentioning that thye are interested in Black Lagoon, Hellsing Ultimate, and one other title, and John Sirabella of Media Blasters saying on this forum that he's only interested in the titles Geneon never got out in some form (that list includes Nanoha, Zero, Deltora Quest, etc.).

Other than that... nothing... nada... zip...

[Mr. Nail Bat]

The only hints we've seen are FUNi mentioning that thye are interested in Black Lagoon, Hellsing Ultimate

For the record, they said no such thing. What they actually said was that they were anticipating that they were anticipating taking a larger market share since Geneon, whose popular titles included Black Lagoon and Hellsing Ultimate, was now out of the picture.

[Mr. Nail Bat]

Merged, since there are only so many Geneon Revival threads that we need at one time...

[The Great Bear]

Merged, since there are only so many Geneon Revival threads that we need at one time...

What? Shouldn't we have one a week?

:P

…

In all seriousness, we're coming to the end of the year. If we don't hear anything out of Geneon USA or Dentsu not too long after Jan. 1, then I think we'll all be in for a long wait. If they are going to recover or re-emerge, I would expect an early announcement. No announcement is a sign that nothing is going to happen.

And as for licensing rescues…I don't put too much stock in that occurring too much either. People point to recent examples, but keep in mind that those are all series that have already seen a R1 release, and the "rescuer" has seen sales data on the product and has some idea of how much of a profit they might be able to make out of re-releasing it.

The Geneon products are a different story. There are series that have seen no release (Zero no Tsukaima, Nanoha), and series with a partial release (Black Lagoon, Hellsing Ultimate, Karin, Rozen Maiden, Story of Saiunkoku, others I forget). They are much iffier propositions, with the possible exception of BL, Hellsing, and Karin, all of which had good sales.

But in the end, all we can do is wait and see.

[presicion25]

Actually,
I just was looking in the last Protoculture Addicts ( Issue no. 93) and in the news section it says ADV will be taking over Distribution, Marketing and Sales for Geneon....
Hopefully this comes true.

[TheGreenMan]

Actually,
I just was looking in the last Protoculture Addicts ( Issue no. 93) and in the news section it says ADV will be taking over Distribution, Marketing and Sales for Geneon....
Hopefully this comes true.

ADV WAS going to take over distribution, but the deal fell through and Geneon went with it.

[The Great Bear]

You can read through the Geneon megathread here (http://www.animeondvd.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/24661/) if you want to see the saga as it unfolded in real time.

Geneon's dead for the moment, until we hear anything further.

[joelgundam01]

In all seriousness, we're coming to the end of the year. If we don't hear anything out of Geneon USA or Dentsu not too long after Jan. 1, then I think we'll all be in for a long wait. If they are going to recover or re-emerge, I would expect an early announcement. No announcement is a sign that nothing is going to happen.

I'm expecting to see an announcement sometime in January, which is the start of their fourth quarter.

There's definitely something going on behind the scenes. I was told by an FYE manager in October, that on November 1st, they would no longer accept Geneon trade ins and on November 30th, they were going to recall all Geneon stock. However, when I went to FYE during the first week of December. The titles were still there and they had a few (new) used Geneon titles.

[The Great Bear]

There's definitely something going on behind the scenes. I was told by an FYE manager in October, that on November 1st, they would no longer accept Geneon trade ins and on November 30th, they were going to recall all Geneon stock. However, when I went to FYE during the first week of December. The titles were still there and they had a few (new) used Geneon titles.

Now, that would be an interesting sign, if stores that said they were going to recall all Geneon stock decided instead to keep them on the shelves.

Of course, there are two possible explanations for that, one good and one bad.

Good: They've gotten word from Geneon behind the scenes that they're not dead yet, so please keep the stock out there, and more will be coming.

Bad: They forgot when the retailer return deadline was, were too late to return their unsold merchandise, and are now stuck with it, so they've left it out until it's gone.

Of course, I'm thinking of new Geneon stock here. It's interesting you point out that they're still accepting Geneon trade-ins when they said they wouldn't. Though I'm not sure what that really means.

We'll see next month what happens.

[joelgundam01]

Of course, there are two possible explanations for that, one good and one bad.

Good: They've gotten word from Geneon behind the scenes that they're not dead yet, so please keep the stock out there, and more will be coming.

Bad: They forgot when the retailer return deadline was, were too late to return their unsold merchandise, and are now stuck with it, so they've left it out until it's gone.


I think it's the former, because it also happened to Best Buy.

Another interesting thing was the sale prices. Before Geneon made the announcement, some of the older Geneon singles were at half off (Girls Bravo, Gankutsuou, Dears, ect...) at FYE. About a week after the announcement, all of the titles were at full price. However, in late November, the titles were marked again at half off.

[Suwako Moriya]

What? Shouldn't we have one a week?

A new thread each would help keep the depressing situation fresh in our minds. I'm not sure what's more upsetting.

A: The series I have left hanging.

B: The series I won't be able to start.

C: My greatly lowered confidence in some series being licensed to the point I'm almost tempted to go R2.