Differences between moe and kawaii

[pianocello]

I've seen the terms moe and kawaii used interchangebly. So, I'd like to try something for you folks to think about:

(1) Name an anime character that is moe but NOT kawaii.
(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe.

[Lego]

I was always under the impression that the two went hand in hand? Someone like Yurie from Kamichu is both moe and kawaii :P

[Serial Experiments Nobue]

Moe is a feeling a person gets when watching a certain type of character, and that type varies from person to person. It is subjective (the important part of the equation), but can be compared to the feeling a cat lover gets when they watch a kitten doing something cute, and usually has a protective element to it (the second important part).

Kawaii is a term with a concrete and virtually non-negotiable definition: cute.


...at least, that's how I interpret it... :shrug:

[Sensuifu]

I've seen the terms moe and kawaii used interchangebly. So, I'd like to try something for you folks to think about:

(1) Name an anime character that is moe but NOT kawaii.

Madarame


(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe.Ohno


:keroro:

[The Great Bear]

I've seen the terms moe and kawaii used interchangebly. So, I'd like to try something for you folks to think about:

(1) Name an anime character that is moe but NOT kawaii.

Madarame


(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe.Ohno


:keroro:

I would disagree. I think Ohno could induce feelings of moe in people quite easily.

Ogiue, on the other hand, is certainly moe, but I don't consider her kawaii. Not in the least. So there is an example.

And I don't feel moe for Madarame :sd:

[Sensuifu]

I've seen the terms moe and kawaii used interchangebly. So, I'd like to try something for you folks to think about:

(1) Name an anime character that is moe but NOT kawaii.

Madarame


(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe.Ohno


:keroro:

I would disagree. I think Ohno could induce feelings of moe in people quite easily.

Ogiue, on the other hand, is certainly moe, but I don't consider her kawaii. Not in the least. So there is an example.

And I don't feel moe for Madarame :sd:

and thus proves a point. One man's moe could be another man's kawaii.
The fact Ohno fantasizes about bald man doesn't strike as moe for me much. Unless of course I were bald, that'd be a different story.

As for Madarame, I can't help but pity the poor soul. That alone warrants some moe factor right there, or at least moreso than Ohno imo. :laugh:

[The Great Bear]

One man's moe could be another man's kawaii.

Fair enough. These terms are all very subjective in the end, after all.

I thought of another example from my perspective: Mai Kawasumi from Kanon. I definitely feel moe towards her. But I don't consider her kawaii. Ayu is kawaii. Sayuri is kawaii. Mai is a badass who wields a sword. But she's also moe.

[something]

<plea_for_poster_restraint> It'll be a miracle if the trolls stay out of this thread, they take to anything with 'moe' in the title like flies to shit. ::crosses fingers:: I think it's a good, interesting topic and would like to see it stay on that topic. </plea_for_poster_restraint> Thanks.

I've seen the terms moe and kawaii used interchangeably. So, I'd like to try something for you folks to think about:
(1) Name an anime character that is moe but NOT kawaii.
(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe.
Moe is situational rather than inherent in a character as such. So characters get in situations that make me feel moe for them, rather than a character actually "being moe". Obviously, a character's personality and reactions can be "cute" as well, but it's not necessarily the same feeling.

Cute generally is something physical/tangible - how the character looks and/or dresses, maybe how they speak. It's something that generally doesn't change unless the character undergoes a physical transformation.

I can feel moe for a character only "sometimes", while if I think a character is cute, I'll generally always think so as long as they look it. A character can be moe and not cute, or moe and cute, or moe and sexy.

So, "moe" is my reaction to a character. "Cute" is an actual tangible feature of the character. I do think I have the sort of personality that gets "moe" over characters fairly easily, so there's lots of overlap. And since I tend to get most attached to cute female characters, I tend to feel moe for them most often. That's just my personality as a straight male who likes cute girls! The overlap makes sense.

----------
To explain better, how about some examples, as you requested? I'm going to mention the cute/not moe moe/not cute but also some of the other oddities in my feelings of moe.

Moe but not cute?
I've felt moe feelings for male characters, and generally I'm not going to call them cute! Sunohara Youhei and Okazaki Tomoya from Clannad make for a good start, likewise Ayasaki Hayate from Hayate no Gotoku (and no, I don't just mean when he's crossdressing =P). [Note, I skimmed replies while typing, and Sensuifu is right about Madarame Harunobu from Genshiken, even if it was only a few times.]

I've even felt a little bit moe for the Tachikomas from Ghost in the Shell: Stand Alone Complex! They're definitely not "kawaii" young females. Sortakindalikewise, Midarezaki Hyouka from Kyouran Kazoku Nikki. Predator-like biological super weapon cyborg!

How about females? Well, the problem here is that most characters *are* cute (to me) regardless of whether or not they're moe. Just naming a non-cute girl is tough enough! :sd:

So maybe an example of a character that's a grown woman, i.e. well outside the norm of what would be considered "kawaii"? In that case, Emma from Victorian Romance Emma dragged the feeling out of me here and there. I think Emma is quite attractive, but in a refined, mature, adult way. She's not a cute young girl.

Or maybe Kasahara Iku from Toshokan Sensou. I have called her cute many times, but in the context of her personality and her relationship with Doujou. She herself isn't very "cute" in the traditional sense - for an ep or two I considered her positively mannish, though she grew on me. She's tall and a bit awkward looking, with short hair and a deep voice. This is no Daidouji Tomoyo, guys. But I have felt moe for her.

Sometimes a character is moe but not cute simply because the character designs aren't cute at all. Take Ukita Marika from Futatsu no Spica. I do think she'd be a lot cuter in a better animated show, though. And while I mean this part in jest, it's also part serious... that frog-like witch from recent Soul Eater eps. No, really. :sd:

Cute but not moe?
Well, again, moe is situational. A character can make me feel moe just once in a two cour series - would that instantly disqualify them? Anyway, a great recent example is Midarezaki Kyouka from Kyouran Kazoku Nikki. I can't think of a reason why (so far!) I'd find her moe, but she's *really* cute! From Code Geass, I'd think Sumeragi Kaguya and Anya Earlstreim come to mind, though I totally reserve the right to find them epically moe given the right situation. Just not yet. For now, they're just epically cute.

There are plenty of characters that are cute but just not very likable, such as Miyuki Mayu, to tap Ai Yori Aoshi. I might have felt it once or twice with her, but most of the time I just wanted to piledrive her face into a heap of used syringes. She was damn cute though...

Non-anime
A number of Touhou characters probably fit "cute but not moe" too, but maybe that's a bit outside the scope since so much of what is accepted about their personalities depend on fan works. A stern, bloodthirsty character in one doujin can be moe as all get out in the next.

Likewise, also going outside anime, I've felt very, very hardcore moe for Hatsune Miku, the digital idol/voice behind Vocaloid, depending on the music video I'm watching. I can't watch the "Melody" PV (yt (http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=aqixFdR1ZUE)/nico (http://www.nicovideo.jp/watch/sm1783839))without getting all moe-induced tingly. ;_; She's not even an anime character.

So while the majority of moe I feel will be for female characters I find cute, there are always exceptions.

[Sensuifu]

One man's moe could be another man's kawaii.

Fair enough. These terms are all very subjective in the end, after all.

I thought of another example from my perspective: Mai Kawasumi from Kanon. I definitely feel moe towards her. But I don't consider her kawaii. Ayu is kawaii. Sayuri is kawaii. Mai is a badass who wields a sword. But she's also moe.

yeah I understand your perspective and knew where you were coming from. My examples really meant to distinguish the fact; there are a lot of generalizations that tend to skew the definitions. Though really, I also see it the way you feel about the characters in your examples, and I would've said something similar. Your Kanon choices perfectly fit how I feel for each of them. To name a few others- Milli Thompson (Trigun), cute but more moe for me. Konoka Konoe (Negima)- not moe to me, but definitely cute.

[Classical]

I was always under the impression that the two went hand in hand? Someone like Yurie from Kamichu is both moe and kawaii :P

For me they certainly seem to go hand in hand a lot. In general if I've found an anime character to be kawaii I've also found them to be moe. Misaki of Angelic Layer is one character I find to be both moe and kawaii.

I guess if I were think of a character that I find to be moe but not kawaii it would be Hikaru of Magic Knight Rayearth. If I were to think of a character that is kawaii but not moe it would probably be Mahoro of Mahoromatic. Other than those, I can't think of many other examples.

[Fudce]

Moe but not cute?
I've felt moe feelings for male characters, and generally I'm not going to call them cute! Sunohara Youhei and Okazaki Tomoya from Clannad make for a good start, likewise Ayasaki Hayate from Hayate no Gotoku (and no, I don't just mean when he's crossdressing =P). [Note, I skimmed replies while typing, and Sensuifu is right about Madarame Harunobu from Genshiken, even if it was only a few times.]
Exactly the ones I was thinking of, especially Sunohara and Hayate :P


Cute but not moe?
Anyway, a great recent example is Midarezaki Kyouka from Kyouran Kazoku Nikki. I can't think of a reason why (so far!) I'd find her moe, but she's *really* cute!

Again hitting a nail right into my head. Admittedly there was one moment in episode 5 (I think - the moment on the beach?) where I did feel moe for her, but other than that she's a hugely cute but moe free zone.

[Mr. Nail Bat]

For the love of all that's holy, please just say "cute". English-speakers saying "kawaii" gives me a rash.

[The Great Bear]

Konoka Konoe (Negima)- not moe to me, but definitely cute.

That's a good example, one I agree with fully. I think from Negima we could get a lot of examples of all types: cute and moe, moe but not cute, cute but not moe. Of course, many of them are cute and moe.

………

something: I see your point about Hayate and Sunohara. While I don't quite think I feel moe for them, I do feel very sorry for them when they are getting beaten up for no good reason, and I do get that "protective" feeling you get which is part of moe.

And thinking of getting beaten up, made me think of Love Hina. Where I can draw two more examples:

Kaolla Su is cute, but not moe (to me).

Motoko Aoyama is moe, but not cute (as she's another badass sword wielder, and can take care of herself).

In contrast, Shinobu Maehara is cute and moe.

Naru is, of course, neither cute nor moe. She's just violent and short tempered, which removes all reason to think of her in either way.

[something]

Motoko Aoyama is moe, but not cute (as she's another badass sword wielder, and can take care of herself).
Ooh, another example of badass (though not sword wielding) moe-not-cute is Inuzuka Yayoi from Kurenai.

I mean, again, I've no doubt described her as "cute" before, but not in the sense meant here. I totally felt moe for her as she sits out in the cold with her cell phone watching over Samidare :sd: But she's definitely not cute like Kinomoto Sakura or Midarezaki Yuuka or Tsukimiya Ayu.

OH! Oh god! I just thought of another great example. Rue from Princess Tutu! Once again, she could be cute, but for the most part she was just devious and utterly seductive instead, way before she was "cute". But oh my god, the moe for her was intense.

Oh Rue <3

[ape2020]

Well the best example of a kawaii characters that aren't moe (unless your very masochistic) is the happy tree friends. All are very cute but since you know they are going to end up mince meat most don't have those moe-esque feelings for them.

-ape2020

[The Great Bear]

OH! Oh god! I just thought of another great example. Rue from Princess Tutu! Once again, she could be cute, but for the most part she was just devious and utterly seductive instead, way before she was "cute". But oh my god, the moe for her was intense.

Oh Rue <3

I thought of mentioning her, but wasn't sure everyone would agree. She's definitely moe, but she's not cute. She's seductive, indeed.

[Njr Scrawl]

I've seen the terms moe and kawaii used interchangebly. So, I'd like to try something for you folks to think about:

(1) Name an anime character that is moe but NOT kawaii.

(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe.


(1) Rei Ayanami
(2) Ami Mizuno (Sailor Mercury)

[Dagger]

One's a verb, one's an adjective. People usually call characters that they get moe'd up over cute, and characters that they find to be cute frequently get them to moe.

If there is a difference, I suppose it's that since moe is emotionally based, it can cover just about any character imaginable, including ones that you would have to be crazy to think of as being cutesy.

[Garasharp K7]

I tend to go with the simple notion of moe = cute and loveable, (or at the very least make you go "Aawww...") though cuteness doesn't always have to come into the equation. I'd consider Dolores from Zone of the Enders to be a 'moe' character due to her personality. Some might disagree, but moe is supposed to be subjective, or so I've heard.
A lot of my favourite 'moe' characters aren't always weak or pitiable. Most of the time, it comes down to how downright adorable they are. Or is that 'kawaii'? (bloody hell, I feckin' hate that word. Not too fond of 'moe' either, come to think of it :) )

As to the OP's question:
(1) Dolores (Zone of the Enders)
(2) Kurumi (Steel Angel Kurumi)

[something]

Most of the time, it comes down to how downright adorable they are. Or is that 'kawaii'?
Kawaii = cute. Not much more to say about that, but think of Sakura from Card Captor Sakura as sort of the archetypal "cute" character, at least as far as females go. Note that cute can refer to physical looks, mannerisms, personality, voice, etc.

Moe = a feeling one gets for a character where they want to protect them, sympathize with them, help them, etc. This doesn't have mean the character "is weak" or "is helpless", however. A character can get in a situation that evokes the moe feeling one scene, then rise up and start kicking ass in the next. Think, if you've seen it, Fate Testarossa from Nanoha. Intense moe for me in a number of scenes... and then she GENOCIDE SHIFTs some bitches into oblivion.

As mentioned in other posts, obviously there will be a lot of overlap for people like me who like cute characters. Most of my favorite characters are, quite simply, cute looking, under 20, and female. And the more I like a character the more likely I will feel moe towards them in certain situations.

But cute and moe are not inherently the same thing. Guys can make me (as a straight male) feel moe, mature adults can make me feel moe, non-human characters can make me feel moe, etc. So it's totally not surprising or wrong if the majority of moe you or anyone else feels is

Think of it like a Venn Diagram (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Venn-diagram-AB.svg). There's a big circle with what I consider 'cute' and there's a big circle with what I consider 'moe' but no one circle completely encloses the other. The overlap may be significant, but they are still two distinctly identifiable entities. There will usually be areas for any given individual that are moe but not cute, or cute but not moe. Piano's thread is looking for examples that fall within those regions.

[GundamWingMan]

(1) Name an anime character that is moe but NOT kawaii: Saber (Fate/Stay Night)

(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe: Sakura Kinomoto (Cardcaptor Sakura)

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

[Fudce]

(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe: Sakura Kinomoto (Cardcaptor Sakura)

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

While I am not somebody who questions the characters other people moe for, Sakura Kinomoto is one that I'll hazard a good majority of people do.

[touma]

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.
You cannot possibly be mistaken because you are just expressing your own feelings and opinions.

For me Kinomoto Sakura-chan is the defining character for moe, and cuteness. But I am not right and you are not wrong because the entire concept is completely personal and subjective.

As for the original question, I cannot think of any character who fits. It seems that for me cuteness and moe are too closely related for me to separate them. Cuteness causes moe, and moe makes a character cute. It seems like circular logic, but logic really is not involved.
But the question is making me think and try to come up with a character who fits either requirement. So far no luck.

[Classical]

(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe: Sakura Kinomoto (Cardcaptor Sakura)

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

I happen to feel the same way about Sakura. Maybe it's because I haven't watched Cardcaptor Sakura in a long time but for some reason I don't find her to be moe. Although Sakura is definitely cute.

[nakimushi]

I've seen the terms moe and kawaii used interchangebly. So, I'd like to try something for you folks to think about:

(1) Name an anime character that is moe but NOT kawaii.
(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe.

Well, I'm almost finished with Lovely Complex and three characters in that show suit this topic fairly well:

Moe, but not Cute: Risa - the main character, one of the main themes of the show is her bouts with insecurity because she is not cute. Insecurity in a character is a quick road to moe.

Cute, but definitely no feelings of Moe: Nobuko - terrific character, I love the range of her Seiyuu's voice in this role - very funny, but no moe.

Cute and moe: their friend Chiharu. Definitely both, but actually the least interesting character to me.

[Isuzu Inugami]

(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe: Sakura Kinomoto (Cardcaptor Sakura)

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

Moe is pretty subjective, so you aren't wrong (and I tend to agree with you--my moe is reserved for Tomoyo; Sakura already has a lot of people looking out for her, so I don't feel especially called upon to worry over her.)

[Classical]

I can't believe I forgot about Evangeline of Negima. She's also another character who I find to be cute but definitely not moe.

[Citizen Klaus]

I can't believe I forgot about Evangeline of Negima. She's also another character who I find to be cute but definitely not moe.

I agree. Eva's not moe -- she can look out for herself. I'd go a step further than calling her "cute", though. :devil:

[Spirit Of The Stage]

(1) Name an anime character that is moe but NOT kawaii: Saber (Fate/Stay Night)

(2) Name an anime character that is kawaii but NOT moe: Sakura Kinomoto (Cardcaptor Sakura)

I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm mistaken.

There is no right or wrong answer - the term moe is so general that it cannot be answered easily in any wait shape or form. So if I gave my answers to those questions, I'll say they are right, but others would say they are wrong - and they would be. Opinion, not fact.

That being said - Number 1) Chika from Genshiken. 2) Vita from Nanoha As. :)