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View Full Version : Curiosity Post: Production cost of "new" vs "old/vintage" anime. Which is higher?


strawberryshortcake
07-12-2008, 08:59 PM
Pardon the lengthy post. (Curiosity post regarding vintage anime's production cost.)

( First of all, I have to say that I do enjoy both old and new generation anime, but I find more "comfort" looking at old school anime. And I actually didn't start watching anime until about 4 years ago. )

Does anyone have a general idea about the production cost of old versus new generation anime? Is anime more profitable in present day or the past?

Simply from an visual artistic stance, the production cost just seems higher for old school anime. The amount of animated movements seen in vintage anime seems to overpower those found in new school anime.

New school anime seems to cut corners, heavily. Reliance on high still frame count, low character body movements, recycled images, lack of microscopic details, comparatively simple designs, all just screams "we need to be cheap[er] to save cost" if we want to put out 26 plus episode series. As I alluded to in another thread (character design thread), it seems as though present day artist have adopted a similar design blue print structured around overly cute, doll-like, and "toy-ish," to almost "life-less" looking characters. I would imagine these cost cutting tricks found in new school anime to increase overall net cash flow.

With respect to overall production cost, this is pure assumption on my part; but visually speaking, I think the "higher production cost for vintage anime" assumption is justified.

Look at the characters in Kanon/Clannad, Elfen Lied, Tsukihime, Shuffle, Air TV, This Ugly Yet Beautiful World, Shana No Shakugan, etc. The main characters practically have the same facial design, with a faint shine-streak strategically placed somewhere on their hair, and with these designs it seem as though the artist(s) have also adopted a completely different style of animation, in a sense "cheaper," "lack of movement," or "moving still images." Sure these characters are cute, and you just want to hug and squeeze them, but they just seem "cheap" in terms of production cost.

Whatever happened to the character designs of old? Whatever happened to quality animation often seen in vintage series? Not to overly generalized, but characters in "new" anime often lack the subtle body movements that render life consistently seen in "old" generation anime. A classic example would be characters walking away from the viewer--new generation anime religiously employ the recycled image effect where the idea of "perspective" is lost. The character would be positioned in the same spot but with legs simply flapping, and this is suppose to give the illusion of walking toward a distance. The problem with this is that it's also magnified by the lack of background movements. This combination seems cheap.

Are there any current company actually working on designs that deviate from the current cute "blue-print"? If not vintage anime, I would like to see the revival of "vintage character designs" and better quality and technical "animation".

This all makes me wonder which company out there actually invest time in truly animating each scene with quality so they evoke life, and not simply trying to cut corners.





Brief background. I grew up on Disney/American cartoons and still gravitate towards these primarily due to their technically sound and fluid animation. Numerous static images frequently employed in the new generation anime is still rather hard to digest until I have sat through a handful and often times high number of episodes, at which point my eyes finally accustoms to low cell count, higher static anime images. There is also this sense of urgency of wanting to quickly get immersed in the story versus the constant wonderment of when the animation quality will finally pick up when watching new school anime. Basically, the lack of subtle movements in new anime is quite a distraction to the story.

On the flip side, I can press play on the DVD player and instantly find comfort in american cartoons and vintage anime. It simply takes more time to get that same feeling watching the new "cheaper" anime blue-print. I would say watching vintage anime gives me a sense of comfort that mirrors what I see in American animation--my focus is more on story versus consciously dissecting low animation quality often found in new generation anime.


P.S. I would like to generate a poll, but not sure how (i.e. I favor old/vintage anime; I favor new generation anime, and etc.).

something
07-12-2008, 09:16 PM
P.S. I would like to generate a poll, but not sure how (i.e. I favor old/vintage anime; I favor new generation anime, and etc.).
Man this post was all over the place. :sd: Making this into a black/white new/old poll choice would have been pointless anyway. Plenty of "vintage" anime looks like garbage, plenty of new anime looks incredible. And vice versa. Incredible animation work is being done all over the place these days, just as it was in the past. So is shoddy crap (see Antique Bakery, sadly).

And the whole deal about faces and designs are far more subjective than you seem to think. It has a lot less to do with whether or not they're being cheap and more to do with your own personal preference in animation style.

strawberryshortcake
07-12-2008, 09:25 PM
P.S. I would like to generate a poll, but not sure how (i.e. I favor old/vintage anime; I favor new generation anime, and etc.).
Man this post was all over the place. :sd: Making this into a black/white new/old poll choice would have been pointless anyway. Plenty of "vintage" anime looks like garbage, plenty of new anime looks incredible. And vice versa. Incredible animation work is being done all over the place these days, just as it was in the past. So is shoddy crap (see Antique Bakery, sadly).

And the whole deal about faces and designs are far more subjective than you seem to think. It has a lot less to do with whether or not they're being cheap and more to do with your own personal preference in animation style.

Yep. It was all over the place. Maybe I should clarify. Although I did bring up character designs themselves, when I spoke of production cost, what I really meant was the amount of movements seen in the anime. As higher cell count usually means the production cost is higher, and from this stance, it's not really about personal preference.

Character facial design was also brought up because those resembling elfen lied, kanon/clannad, Shana types typically have a specific style of animation associated with it--the amount of movement lacks compared to vintage products.

It seems like there is just more subtle movements seen in vintage products compared to the new stuff. Example of quality subtle movements seen in a new series would be Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya, however even certain clips that I've seen have a lot of static frames as well.

stfram
07-12-2008, 09:49 PM
This all makes me wonder which company out there actually invest time in truly animating each scene with quality so they evoke life, and not simply trying to cut corners.


Kyoto Animation, IMO.

Considering the rework that Haruhi got for its DVD release, especially considering that 95% of fans probably never even SAW the glitches that they fixed, is amazing to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCWs-PgfThA

That's obsessive attention to detail, right there.

I'm surprised you thought the animation in Clannad and Kanon 06 were "cheap" looking.

Personally, I thought both of those shows were examples of how *good* anime can look when done well.

I also think most of the recent shows (and character designs), look better than the vast majority of the old-school shows out there. The animation looks cleaner, crisper, and smoother.

Even then, I started out watching the old-school shows. I became a fan in 87 or so, and the draw of anime was never the quality of the animation. I thought it looked better than most comparable US shows (like He-Man, GI Joe, etc), but the main attraction was the maturity of the plots, and the attractive and more expressive (thanks in large part to the large eyes) character designs.

Fencedude
07-12-2008, 10:03 PM
I'm going to say that a lot of this is "rose colored glasses". Older anime is just as susceptible to everything you listed about newer anime.

Honestly, I'd say that on average frame counts and such have gone UP, as has animation quality as a whole.

something
07-12-2008, 10:20 PM
Character facial design was also brought up because those resembling elfen lied, kanon/clannad, Shana types typically have a specific style of animation associated with it--the amount of movement lacks compared to vintage products.
Not sure I agree at all with the "less motion in newer shows" bit. Not at all... And Shana (like much of what you mentioned) is a bad example for pointing out animation flaws, I think - Shana is ridiculously well animated. And some of the battles have more movement in two minutes than most shows have in a season. :sd: Likewise, the KyoAni offerings are pretty much the pinnacle of what TV animation can be, in my eyes. From character designs to lighting to weather effects to attention to detail, it's just about perfect for me. SHAFT is another great studio that does some really interesting things in terms of artistic creativity. Even when it falls flat, I have to applaud them for the effort. And most of the time it's just a wonder to behold.

BonifaceVIII
07-12-2008, 10:22 PM
Japanese animation, on average, has always cut more corners than Western animation. It's just that the corner-cutting has become smoother and easier with the advent of digital production.

krelyan
07-13-2008, 02:04 AM
While I don't have any numbers to back myself up, I was always under the impression that anime from the 80's (with titles like Robot Carnival) had some of the highest per second budgets. OAVs seem to have died off in this day and age. If one was simply after the costs and not the quality (which is subjective anyways) then, after adjusting inflation, it would be my guess that older anime did have higher production averages.

Buckeye
07-13-2008, 06:55 AM
Kind of hard to say, but I will say that vintage anime would be more expensive since using traditional cel animation would take longer to produce and that with newer technology, more efficient methods have been employed.

vanfanel
07-13-2008, 07:13 AM
Not to mention all the cell paint that they don't have to buy now.

Lego
07-13-2008, 07:15 AM
But all that cell work has been replaced with CG, digitally painted backgrounds, and effects that some cel animators may not of even dreamed of today. So while I get your point about the cost, you simply replace one with the other. For a high end show like Ergo Proxy or even Haruhi, I stagger to think how much money gets sunk into each episode.

something
07-13-2008, 11:16 AM
But all that cell work has been replaced with CG, digitally painted backgrounds, and effects that some cel animators may not of even dreamed of today. So while I get your point about the cost, you simply replace one with the other. For a high end show like Ergo Proxy or even Haruhi, I stagger to think how much money gets sunk into each episode.
Yeah, it's probably cheaper in inflation-adjusted terms to make a "cheap" anime today, simply because of better technology, but you've still got plenty of the big-budget shows being made.

Zalis
07-13-2008, 02:23 PM
While I don't have any numbers to back myself up, I was always under the impression that anime from the 80's (with titles like Robot Carnival) had some of the highest per second budgets. OAVs seem to have died off in this day and age. If one was simply after the costs and not the quality (which is subjective anyways) then, after adjusting inflation, it would be my guess that older anime did have higher production averages.I agree, but we have to consider that most of the anime that we know of from the 1980s is in fact movies and OVAs. There were probably a lot of long-running, low-budget TV shows that never saw the light of day over here.