A relisation about the console wars that I don't think anyone has thought of

[Invisible Crane]

Is it me?, or has nothing changed in the console war between the Xbox360, PS3 and the Wii or if things have changed they've not been that noticeable.

I mean think about it, people still complain about the reliability of the Xbox360, people still complain about the price and supposed lack of games on the PS3 and people still complain about the Wii in general (honestly I don't think I could list the complaints gamers make agaisnt the Wii)

Now I will say some things have improved in regards to all 3 consoles but it seems it's not been much...am I the only one who's noticed this?

[Johnny]

What exactly did you think would change?

[ADC]

Seems to me that the reason gamers keep complaining about the same things is pretty simple: Nothing's changed. The 360 still has reliability issues, and it seems like new ones crop up with every hardware revision. The PS3 is still ridiculously expensive and still has the smallest library. And the Wii is still the Wii, with all the perceived and actual bad that goes with being so. And the gamers always focus on the negative when talking about game consoles, especially if they have a preference for one or against another. While we're here, the DS sucks at 3D, the PSP's battery is a joke, the PS2 is wimpy, the Xbox was made by a company that knows fuck-all about games (and it shows), the Gamecube has a handle on the back, the Dreamcast has the worst controller in the history of civilization, and the GBA can't even properly replicate SNES audio.

So each console has its glaring issues. Nintendo's trying to get third parties to bring new and interesting games to the Wii, but it's not stopping companies from bringing shit to the console. Microsoft's trying to fix the 360's various hardware failures and software faults and is having mixed results. Sony's not even trying to fix the PS3's greatest problem, the price.

Well, here's a problem. "New and interesting games" usually end up in the bargain bin (see: Zack & Wiki). "Hardware failures and software faults" will happen when a company's good at creating neither. And "the price" will remain high as long as the executives have their heads up their poop chutes.

It comes down to one question: "Do I give a damn?" I look past the Wii's issues because some of the games have been rad. I look past the PS3's issues because some of the games have been rad (and FF13's still on the horizon). And … well, I have personal reasons for refusing to purchase anything from Microsoft, which date back to before the Xbox division existed. I try to just say, "Fuck 'em," and move on.

[Invisible Crane]

What exactly did you think would change?

Well for one thing I thought that by now gamers would have looked past the price of the PS3 at this point, I mean yes it's still the most expensive out of the consoles but really is it still really that bad now as it was when it came out?

[Fencedude]

What exactly did you think would change?

Well for one thing I thought that by now gamers would have looked past the price of the PS3 at this point, I mean yes it's still the most expensive out of the consoles but really is it still really that bad now as it was when it came out?

You just have to know how to take advantage of opportunities.

I got my PS3, new, for $250.

[lockmastah]

What exactly did you think would change?

Well for one thing I thought that by now gamers would have looked past the price of the PS3 at this point, I mean yes it's still the most expensive out of the consoles but really is it still really that bad now as it was when it came out?

Last I checked, $400 is still a lot of money (especially during harsh economic times). And at this point, there aren't going to be any huge changes in this generation of consoles. Sure there will probably be some big announcements at E3, but I doubt anything radical. If and when something like OnLive takes off, things will shake up a lot.

[NeoCortex]

This Penny Arcade comic (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2009/5/20/) seems apropriate to the discussion.

And like others have already said, there really hasn't been much change in the current generation of consoles since they came out. The same thing really happens with every generation. The shortcomings that get complained about when a console first comes out usually don't change until the next generation of hardware.

[LordGeo]

the Dreamcast has the worst controller in the history of civilization

No, the Atari 5200 controller is the worst: the analog stick wouldn't recenter, they were notorious for just not wanting to work, and it had a keypad which wasn't really used... Not to mention that it was a part of the Atari 5200, which is bad enough.

The Dreamcast controller's only real problem is that it's handles aren't slanted, but I personally really like the DC's controller.

[Betenoire]

the Dreamcast has the worst controller in the history of civilization

No, the Atari 5200 controller is the worst: the analog stick wouldn't recenter, they were notorious for just not wanting to work, and it had a keypad which wasn't really used... Not to mention that it was a part of the Atari 5200, which is bad enough.

The Dreamcast controller's only real problem is that it's handles aren't slanted, but I personally really like the DC's controller.

I will slightly take the DC controller over the first X-Box. While I liked the X-Box's set up a bit more, there really was no call for that thing to weigh as much as it does. :sd:

[Invisible Crane]

So basically it's no different today than it was back in the days of the Genesis/Mega Drive and the SNES, I guess that's understandable.

But one thing I have noticed is the amount of complaining from gamers has probably never been higher

[Betenoire]

so basically it's no different today than it was back in the days of the Genesis/Mega Drive and the SNES, I guess that's understandable.

But one thing I have noticed is the amount of complaining from gamers has probably never been higher

Well, there are more gamers today, the expectations have increased (partially due to the rise of cost of systems and it is also that is what fans do :)) plus the internet gives them the ability to focus more, where as in the 80's they were smaller, more isolated groups for the most part with no easy venting forum.

And those who came across those groups quickly knew which camp they were in. ;)

[ADC]

the Dreamcast has the worst controller in the history of civilization
No, the Atari 5200 controller is the worst: the analog stick wouldn't recenter, they were notorious for just not wanting to work, and it had a keypad which wasn't really used... Not to mention that it was a part of the Atari 5200, which is bad enough.
The Dreamcast controller's only real problem is that it's handles aren't slanted, but I personally really like the DC's controller.
I will slightly take the DC controller over the first X-Box. While I liked the X-Box's set up a bit more, there really was no call for that thing to weigh as much as it does. :sd:
I draw much amusement from the fact that the only part of my console-related bitching that drew the slightest response was this part. :sdsmiley:

[Gatts]

I draw much amusement from the fact that the only part of my console-related bitching that drew the slightest response was this part. :sdsmiley:

What? You mean people should respond to the anti-microsoft views in your post? Seems like a waste of time as you've already made up your mind.

But since you asked...

While we're here, the DS sucks at 3D

The DS was never designed to be a 3D system.

the PSP's battery is a joke

An average of 5~6 hours is fine in my opinion. If it wasn't designed as a multimedia system and instead was designed as just a gaming system, they probably could have squeezed out a few more hours from it. Cut out the UMD and make the screen a bit dimmer and there you have it. Besides most of the time I'm not playing it in a location where I won't be able to charge it for 6 hours.

the PS2 is wimpy

Compared to what? If you are comparing it to a PS3, of course it is. It's a nine year old platform. If you are comparing it to the original Xbox, it's also two years older than that system.

the Xbox was made by a company that knows fuck-all about games (and it shows)

Of course, which is why Xbox live is still the best online gaming setup in the industry and Microsoft Game Studios has been going strong since 1994. Age of Empires. Microsoft Flight Simulator. Close Combat. Asheron's Call. MechAssult. All of these are game franchises that were popular before the Xbox and before third party pickups such as Bungie, Lionhead, and Rare.

the Gamecube has a handle on the back

Okay?

the Dreamcast has the worst controller in the history of civilization

I see the Atari 5200 calculator controller mentioned earlier and raise the Atari Jaguar controller.

and the GBA can't even properly replicate SNES audio.

Emulation is rarely perfect. Especially emulation on a console. Of note:

Xbox 360 software emulation for Xbox games.
and
Playstation 3's software solutions for Playstation 2 compatibility.

The only ones that tend to work properly are the hardware solutions such as PS2 with the PS1 chip and the 60GB PS3 with the PS2 chip.

[Buster Darkwings]

Emulation nothing, the GBA's audio sucks period.

[Fencedude]

Emulation nothing, the GBA's audio sucks period.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing how anyone could doubt this.
It was really, really noticable.

[broodwars]

Emulation nothing, the GBA's audio sucks period.

Yeah, I'm not really seeing how anyone could doubt this.
It was really, really noticable.

And honestly, the DS's isn't much better (just listen to FF4 DS). It seems to take an exceptional amount of work to get the thing to even emulate the sound quality of the SNES with those speakers, as Square found out when they ported over Chrono Trigger.

[Buster Darkwings]

I was more referring to the sound processing, not the speaker output. The one or two times I've tried to find info on the GBA's sound capabilities I didn't find much, but games sound like they're only being sampled at 22kHz or something even with decent headphones. DS games sound much cleaner in comparison, in addition to the better quality of the music rendering.

[Fencedude]

And honestly, the DS's isn't much better (just listen to FF4 DS). It seems to take an exceptional amount of work to get the thing to even emulate the sound quality of the SNES with those speakers, as Square found out when they ported over Chrono Trigger.

Plug that DS into headphones or a decent pair of speakers and tell me that.

The music in recent Banpresto games (SRWOGSEF and SRWK) is absolutely fantastic. I was utterly shocked when I plugged in some headphones and heard the baseline in ZIPS, and entire INSTRUMENTS in Yoake no Yume and Dann of Thursday.

The GBA had bad music even with headphones, the DS speaker may be crap, but its actual output can be fantastic.

[broodwars]

And honestly, the DS's isn't much better (just listen to FF4 DS). It seems to take an exceptional amount of work to get the thing to even emulate the sound quality of the SNES with those speakers, as Square found out when they ported over Chrono Trigger.

Plug that DS into headphones or a decent pair of speakers and tell me that.

The music in recent Banpresto games (SRWOGSEF and SRWK) is absolutely fantastic. I was utterly shocked when I plugged in some headphones and heard the baseline in ZIPS, and entire INSTRUMENTS in Yoake no Yume and Dann of Thursday.

The GBA had bad music even with headphones, the DS speaker may be crap, but its actual output can be fantastic.

Well, that figures. I don't like wearing my ear-encompassing-headphones if I can avoid it (after a while, they just get obnoxious and make my ears hurt), so most times I had to deal with the DS's lousy, buzzing speakers.

[ADC]

And honestly, the DS's isn't much better (just listen to FF4 DS). It seems to take an exceptional amount of work to get the thing to even emulate the sound quality of the SNES with those speakers, as Square found out when they ported over Chrono Trigger.
Plug that DS into headphones or a decent pair of speakers and tell me that.
The music in recent Banpresto games (SRWOGSEF and SRWK) is absolutely fantastic. I was utterly shocked when I plugged in some headphones and heard the baseline in ZIPS, and entire INSTRUMENTS in Yoake no Yume and Dann of Thursday.
The GBA had bad music even with headphones, the DS speaker may be crap, but its actual output can be fantastic.
Well, that figures. I don't like wearing my ear-encompassing-headphones if I can avoid it (after a while, they just get obnoxious and make my ears hurt), so most times I had to deal with the DS's lousy, buzzing speakers.
You could keep a few different sets of headphones. I prefer to wear my canalbuds most of the time, but sometimes I need to get them out of my ears, at which point I switch to earbuds. (I can't do the ear-encompassing phones at all because they make my ears too hot. I'll take pain over heat.) But yeah, the DS speakers are horrible. On the topic of FF4, though, the decision to add voice "acting" did far more to damage that game's sound than the DS's audio hardware did. I don't usually notice audio compression artifacts on the DS, but I sure did on that game.

[Fencedude]

But yeah, the DS speakers are horrible. On the topic of FF4, though, the decision to add voice "acting" did far more to damage that game's sound than the DS's audio hardware did. I don't usually notice audio compression artifacts on the DS, but I sure did on that game.

Speaking of voice work, SRWOGSEF has a ton of spoken dialog, in good quality, and fantastic music to boot. Banpresto has figured something out for sure.

[LordGeo]

But yeah, the DS speakers are horrible. On the topic of FF4, though, the decision to add voice "acting" did far more to damage that game's sound than the DS's audio hardware did. I don't usually notice audio compression artifacts on the DS, but I sure did on that game.

Speaking of voice work, SRWOGSEF has a ton of spoken dialog, in good quality, and fantastic music to boot. Banpresto has figured something out for sure.

Yeah, when the music and vocals sound good even through the DS speakers then that company really knows what they're doing.

[Ty]

Yeah, when the music and vocals sound good even through the DS speakers then that company really knows what they're doing.

As long as they haven't specifically developed the sound/music so that it sounds good on said speakers. Some companies do that and it is a huge mistake. Produce the best soundtrack you can and let the user decide whether they are fine with only hearing part of the sound experience via the DS speakers IMO. The first time I plugged a pair of Koss KSC75 into my DS I was quite shocked too. It sounds great, and there is bloody bass to boot! Just the difference in sampling rate alone puts it head and shoulders above the GBA, but Nintendo actually did some work to keep the noise out of the circuit and give the audio some dynamic range and channel separation this time.

[ADC]

Yeah, when the music and vocals sound good even through the DS speakers then that company really knows what they're doing.
As long as they haven't specifically developed the sound/music so that it sounds good on said speakers.
I remember when Intelligent did something really smart for a GBA game: They included different settings for the speaker and for headphones on Metroid Fusion. It should come as no surprise that M4 was one of the best-sounding GBA games.

… "Intelligent did something really smart." Heh. :cool:

[Fencedude]

As long as they haven't specifically developed the sound/music so that it sounds good on said speakers. Some companies do that and it is a huge mistake. Produce the best soundtrack you can and let the user decide whether they are fine with only hearing part of the sound experience via the DS speakers IMO. The first time I plugged a pair of Koss KSC75 into my DS I was quite shocked too. It sounds great, and there is bloody bass to boot! Just the difference in sampling rate alone puts it head and shoulders above the GBA, but Nintendo actually did some work to keep the noise out of the circuit and give the audio some dynamic range and channel separation this time.

There are a couple tracks in K that arguably sound better than the originals *cough*Arino Mamade Lovin'/U*cough*

Though that might just be the lack of Re-Mii's off key sinigng.

[Gatts]

Emulation nothing, the GBA's audio sucks period.

I never said GBA's audio was good. My point is that emulated games are lacking in many areas. Console emulation efforts have often fallen flat and even emulators like MAME and Neorage do not reproduce the original 100% faithfully.

Sometimes even porting a game to a new system misses. Playing Metal Slug 3 on XBLA and playing it on Neo Geo AES is different. There's some major slowdown when playing two player. The WII and PSP collections also have many shortcomings.

Now this doesn't mean that I don't want games emulated/ported. I'd love for older games like Magical Drop, Mezase! Ikusa Tama O, Puyo Puyo Tsu/Sun/Yo~n, Saturn Bomberman, etc to make their way onto virtual console, but I know that's not likely to happen. So until that time I'll have to keep all of my old consoles around to play the games I want to play on a whim.

[Fencedude]

Emulation nothing, the GBA's audio sucks period.

I never said GBA's audio was good. My point is that emulated games are lacking in many areas. Console emulation efforts have often fallen flat and even emulators like MAME and Neorage do not reproduce the original 100% faithfully.

Sometimes even porting a game to a new system misses. Playing Metal Slug 3 on XBLA and playing it on Neo Geo AES is different. There's some major slowdown when playing two player. The WII and PSP collections also have many shortcomings.

Now this doesn't mean that I don't want games emulated/ported. I'd love for older games like Magical Drop, Mezase! Ikusa Tama O, Puyo Puyo Tsu/Sun/Yo~n, Saturn Bomberman, etc to make their way onto virtual console, but I know that's not likely to happen. So until that time I'll have to keep all of my old consoles around to play the games I want to play on a whim.

But...he wasn't really talking about emulated games.

[Gatts]

But...he wasn't really talking about emulated games.

Okay then, how about this:

and the GBA can't even properly replicate SNES audio.

The GBA can't even properly replicate any audio. Is that better for ya? :)

[Ty]

Okay then, how about this:

and the GBA can't even properly replicate SNES audio.

The GBA can't even properly replicate any audio. Is that better for ya? :)

I took his comment to mean the GBA cannot even match the audio capabilities of the SNES hardware, and that he just worded it a bit awkwardly. It's a true statement in that light too, but then again the SNES sound hardware was quite advanced for its day.

[Betenoire]

<snip>
I draw much amusement from the fact that the only part of my console-related bitching that drew the slightest response was this part. :sdsmiley:

*shrug* I'll participate in the part of the argument I choose to. I have yet to find that perfect system, and until I do I will try to accept that each system has it's pluses and minuses. You hate a certain company. I can relate, but I know better than to argue over that point. People won't change my mind, I won't change theirs. Ce La Vie.

On a related note I saw an Atari 2600 "Darth Vader" model (82) at a used place yesterday. But I have the Jr. model (86) and the last time I tried it out is still worked and played the games I have as well as it ever did.

I don't know about the GBA's sound as I never had one. I have an early model GB (with no battery cover naturally) and didn't upgrade the system until the SP. I do have a Super Game Boy adapter, so that should give an idea if the game sounds were all the GB's fault or some of the developer's.

[Fencedude]

I don't know about the GBA's sound as I never had one. I have an early model GB (with no battery cover naturally) and didn't upgrade the system until the SP. I do have a Super Game Boy adapter, so that should give an idea if the game sounds were all the GB's fault or some of the developer's.

Uhh...what does the Super Gameboy have to do with the Gameboy Advance?

[ADC]

I don't know about the GBA's sound as I never had one. I have an early model GB (with no battery cover naturally) and didn't upgrade the system until the SP. I do have a Super Game Boy adapter, so that should give an idea if the game sounds were all the GB's fault or some of the developer's.
Uhh...what does the Super Gameboy have to do with the Gameboy Advance?
I wondered that myself. Maybe he meant the Game Boy Player for the Cube?

[Betenoire]

I don't know about the GBA's sound as I never had one. I have an early model GB (with no battery cover naturally) and didn't upgrade the system until the SP. I do have a Super Game Boy adapter, so that should give an idea if the game sounds were all the GB's fault or some of the developer's.
Uhh...what does the Super Gameboy have to do with the Gameboy Advance?
I wondered that myself. Maybe he meant the Game Boy Player for the Cube?

Oops. I was just thinking the idea of using it on another system to see if the sound was due solely to the GBA or if there where also cart limitations.

Not terribly clear as my brain somehow made the synapse jump from one thing to the other. :sd: My apologies.

[Sensuifu]

the Dreamcast has the worst controller in the history of civilization

I see the Atari 5200 calculator controller mentioned earlier and raise the Atari Jaguar controller.


I don't think anything can top that monstrosity...can you even call it a controller?

[Sensuifu]

And … well, I have personal reasons for refusing to purchase anything from Microsoft, which date back to before the Xbox division existed. I try to just say, "Fuck 'em," and move on.

you're just upset because MS managed to take Bungie...along with the Halo franchise. But really, you should be thankful for that.

[Sensuifu]

I will slightly take the DC controller over the first X-Box. While I liked the X-Box's set up a bit more, there really was no call for that thing to weigh as much as it does. :sd:

MS mainly targeted male-gamers (particularly ones with large hands) when designing the controller. It didn't help that the logo occupied about 50% of surface space either. Fortunately they heard the eager pleas and realized what they had going (Xbox success) and redesigned the controller to be one of the more comfortable ones (despite the pos D-pad).

[Sensuifu]

So basically it's no different today than it was back in the days of the Genesis/Mega Drive and the SNES, I guess that's understandable.

But one thing I have noticed is the amount of complaining from gamers has probably never been higher

ignorance is bliss in this case. I haven't really paid attention to these console flamewars as closely as you might have, but is there really a dire need to complain these days when rarely a game goes for $69.99 or $79.99, new? I can remember when blowing out carts was an event of its own. Everyone shared that one thing in common..nobody disagreed on that.

[ADC]

And … well, I have personal reasons for refusing to purchase anything from Microsoft, which date back to before the Xbox division existed. I try to just say, "Fuck 'em," and move on.
you're just upset because MS managed to take Bungie...along with the Halo franchise. But really, you should be thankful for that.
You're right that I should be thankful MS got Bungie when they did (and I am), but my MS issues precede that by several years and have no relation to Bungie in any case. Besides, if those crazy "Halo vs Metroid" videos are any indication, Master Chief is HAWT.

[TornadoTatsumaki]

Seems to me that the reason gamers keep complaining about the same things is pretty simple: Nothing's changed. The 360 still has reliability issues, and it seems like new ones crop up with every hardware revision. The PS3 is still ridiculously expensive and still has the smallest library. And the Wii is still the Wii, with all the perceived and actual bad that goes with being so. And the gamers always focus on the negative when talking about game consoles, especially if they have a preference for one or against another. While we're here, the DS sucks at 3D, the PSP's battery is a joke, the PS2 is wimpy, the Xbox was made by a company that knows fuck-all about games (and it shows), the Gamecube has a handle on the back, the Dreamcast has the worst controller in the history of civilization, and the GBA can't even properly replicate SNES audio.

So each console has its glaring issues. Nintendo's trying to get third parties to bring new and interesting games to the Wii, but it's not stopping companies from bringing shit to the console. Microsoft's trying to fix the 360's various hardware failures and software faults and is having mixed results. Sony's not even trying to fix the PS3's greatest problem, the price.

Well, here's a problem. "New and interesting games" usually end up in the bargain bin (see: Zack & Wiki). "Hardware failures and software faults" will happen when a company's good at creating neither. And "the price" will remain high as long as the executives have their heads up their poop chutes.

It comes down to one question: "Do I give a damn?" I look past the Wii's issues because some of the games have been rad. I look past the PS3's issues because some of the games have been rad (and FF13's still on the horizon). And … well, I have personal reasons for refusing to purchase anything from Microsoft, which date back to before the Xbox division existed. I try to just say, "Fuck 'em," and move on.

You make alot of really good points there.


But ADC is right, there will always be a complaint about a console not matter who it's from.

[Ryos]

Each main console has significant issues this generation. Fortunately, my PSP and DS are chugging along. :P

[Legion]

Sony's not even trying to fix the PS3's greatest problem, the price.

I'm a little surprised that Sony hasn't re-introduced the 40GB. Price it at $299 and throw in a game like Resistence: FOM or whatever and you'd have a decent looking package.

[Garasharp K7]

The only thing I realised about the console wars is that the whole thing is silly, pointless and amounts to little more than willy-waving by various gamers saying console X is better than system Y" like it's a matter of grave importance. Never could understand why some people rallied behind corporations like they were football teams either.
Ah, but what do I know. I had a computer back then. I never fought in the console wars. :)

Truth be told, I was too busy playing the games to care, really.

[ADC]

I'm a little surprised that Sony hasn't re-introduced the 40GB. Price it at $299 and throw in a game like Resistence: FOM or whatever and you'd have a decent looking package.
They probably haven't done because 40-GB drives are nearly the same price as 80-GB these days, and most suppliers aren't even bothering to make the 40s anymore. For my part, I wish they'd knock it off with the "upgrades," pick a standard model, and drop the price from there. Screwing around with the features and capabilities just makes things more confusing than they need to be while allowing Sony to obfuscate the fact that the price is still too high for the cost-conscious gamer.

[Fencedude]

Sony's not even trying to fix the PS3's greatest problem, the price.

I'm a little surprised that Sony hasn't re-introduced the 40GB. Price it at $299 and throw in a game like Resistence: FOM or whatever and you'd have a decent looking package.

The hard drive is an incredibly minimal part of the cost issue.

Hell, I just bought an external 1.5 TB drive for $144.

[ADC]

I'm a little surprised that Sony hasn't re-introduced the 40GB. Price it at $299 and throw in a game like Resistence: FOM or whatever and you'd have a decent looking package.
The hard drive is an incredibly minimal part of the cost issue.
Hell, I just bought an external 1.5 TB drive for $144.
Pricing is a bit different for notebook drives, which the PS3 uses. You'll only get 500 GB for that money. (Only?) But you're right that the cost for large quantity of 80- and 160-GB drives is probably so low that it doesn't make much difference.

[Betenoire]

I'm a little surprised that Sony hasn't re-introduced the 40GB. Price it at $299 and throw in a game like Resistence: FOM or whatever and you'd have a decent looking package.
They probably haven't done because 40-GB drives are nearly the same price as 80-GB these days, and most suppliers aren't even bothering to make the 40s anymore. For my part, I wish they'd knock it off with the "upgrades," pick a standard model, and drop the price from there. Screwing around with the features and capabilities just makes things more confusing than they need to be while allowing Sony to obfuscate the fact that the price is still too high for the cost-conscious gamer.

You know, that reminds me- Once upon a time either Sega with the Dreamcast of MS with the X-Box were talking of doing thes same thing, and my friends and I enjoyed making fun of the idea because who would want a new system every year or two, and how could you commit to a system that will have an improved version hit the market so soon. At least at a consoles price point-Nintendo doesn't seem to have many problems selling new improved on Game Boys.

Not that the each new version of the PS3 is a huge step over the last, but this may explain why I still haven't been able to convince myself that I need this system.

[ADC]

You know, that reminds me- Once upon a time either Sega with the Dreamcast of MS with the X-Box were talking of doing thes same thing, and my friends and I enjoyed making fun of the idea because who would want a new system every year or two, and how could you commit to a system that will have an improved version hit the market so soon. At least at a consoles price point-Nintendo doesn't seem to have many problems selling new improved on Game Boys.
The difference here, too, is that Nintendo makes qualitative upgrades when bringing out new versions of the same hardware. The DS Lite was, surprisingly enough, lighter than the DS; the DSi added DSiWare capability among other things. Sony's delivering quantitative upgrades — bigger HDDs, mostly — and qualitative downgrades. I'm not sure why I can figure that out and Kaz Hirai/Jack Tretton/Howard Stringer cannot.

[Betenoire]

You know, that reminds me- Once upon a time either Sega with the Dreamcast of MS with the X-Box were talking of doing thes same thing, and my friends and I enjoyed making fun of the idea because who would want a new system every year or two, and how could you commit to a system that will have an improved version hit the market so soon. At least at a consoles price point-Nintendo doesn't seem to have many problems selling new improved on Game Boys.
The difference here, too, is that Nintendo makes qualitative upgrades when bringing out new versions of the same hardware. The DS Lite was, surprisingly enough, lighter than the DS; the DSi added DSiWare capability among other things. Sony's delivering quantitative upgrades — bigger HDDs, mostly — and qualitative downgrades. I'm not sure why I can figure that out and Kaz Hirai/Jack Tretton/Howard Stringer cannot.

Because you look at it from the standpoint of someone who actually uses it for games as opposed to bragging rights about having the biggest HDD? :catgirl:

[ADC]

You know, that reminds me- Once upon a time either Sega with the Dreamcast of MS with the X-Box were talking of doing thes same thing, and my friends and I enjoyed making fun of the idea because who would want a new system every year or two, and how could you commit to a system that will have an improved version hit the market so soon. At least at a consoles price point-Nintendo doesn't seem to have many problems selling new improved on Game Boys.
The difference here, too, is that Nintendo makes qualitative upgrades when bringing out new versions of the same hardware. The DS Lite was, surprisingly enough, lighter than the DS; the DSi added DSiWare capability among other things. Sony's delivering quantitative upgrades — bigger HDDs, mostly — and qualitative downgrades. I'm not sure why I can figure that out and Kaz Hirai/Jack Tretton/Howard Stringer cannot.
Because you look at it from the standpoint of someone who actually uses it for games as opposed to bragging rights about having the biggest HDD? :catgirl:
Ah. Now I understand. :)

[Invisible Crane]

You know, that reminds me- Once upon a time either Sega with the Dreamcast of MS with the X-Box were talking of doing thes same thing, and my friends and I enjoyed making fun of the idea because who would want a new system every year or two, and how could you commit to a system that will have an improved version hit the market so soon. At least at a consoles price point-Nintendo doesn't seem to have many problems selling new improved on Game Boys.
The difference here, too, is that Nintendo makes qualitative upgrades when bringing out new versions of the same hardware. The DS Lite was, surprisingly enough, lighter than the DS; the DSi added DSiWare capability among other things. Sony's delivering quantitative upgrades — bigger HDDs, mostly — and qualitative downgrades. I'm not sure why I can figure that out and Kaz Hirai/Jack Tretton/Howard Stringer cannot.
Because you look at it from the standpoint of someone who actually uses it for games as opposed to bragging rights about having the biggest HDD? :catgirl:
Ah. Now I understand. :)

Is this gonna turn into a "PS3 has no games" argument, as said I really hate it when people say that

[broodwars]

You know, that reminds me- Once upon a time either Sega with the Dreamcast of MS with the X-Box were talking of doing thes same thing, and my friends and I enjoyed making fun of the idea because who would want a new system every year or two, and how could you commit to a system that will have an improved version hit the market so soon. At least at a consoles price point-Nintendo doesn't seem to have many problems selling new improved on Game Boys.
The difference here, too, is that Nintendo makes qualitative upgrades when bringing out new versions of the same hardware. The DS Lite was, surprisingly enough, lighter than the DS; the DSi added DSiWare capability among other things. Sony's delivering quantitative upgrades — bigger HDDs, mostly — and qualitative downgrades. I'm not sure why I can figure that out and Kaz Hirai/Jack Tretton/Howard Stringer cannot.
Because you look at it from the standpoint of someone who actually uses it for games as opposed to bragging rights about having the biggest HDD? :catgirl:
Ah. Now I understand. :)

Is this gonna turn into a "PS3 has no games" argument, as said I really hate it when people say that

People who say that have no taste in games. Seriously, I've had no trouble amassing 11 good PS3 games in only a couple months with 3 more on the way (Infamous, Ghostbusters, Batman). Yeah, the vast majority aren't PS3 exclusives, but that doesn't mean the multiplatform games don't count as worthwhile games in the catalog.

[Betenoire]

You know, that reminds me- Once upon a time either Sega with the Dreamcast of MS with the X-Box were talking of doing thes same thing, and my friends and I enjoyed making fun of the idea because who would want a new system every year or two, and how could you commit to a system that will have an improved version hit the market so soon. At least at a consoles price point-Nintendo doesn't seem to have many problems selling new improved on Game Boys.
The difference here, too, is that Nintendo makes qualitative upgrades when bringing out new versions of the same hardware. The DS Lite was, surprisingly enough, lighter than the DS; the DSi added DSiWare capability among other things. Sony's delivering quantitative upgrades — bigger HDDs, mostly — and qualitative downgrades. I'm not sure why I can figure that out and Kaz Hirai/Jack Tretton/Howard Stringer cannot.
Because you look at it from the standpoint of someone who actually uses it for games as opposed to bragging rights about having the biggest HDD? :catgirl:
Ah. Now I understand. :)

Is this gonna turn into a "PS3 has no games" argument, as said I really hate it when people say that

Nope. Everything you see above is related to hardware. Never once was a mention made of software-pro or con. I didn't say the software has kept me from buying a PS3 (In fact, I already own a few games) it is the bizarre (in my opinion) hardware decisions that have made it so.

If I kvetch about software I can do so with the 360 as well as the PS3, but my tastes seem to be stuck in the SNES and PS1/Dreamcast era and I don't expect for there to be 100+ titles I really want to own on any given system. That said there are games I want for both, so it is not a software issue to me.

[Fencedude]

Is this gonna turn into a "PS3 has no games" argument, as said I really hate it when people say that

Eh? No one had brought that up.

Also its complete BS.

(also, for someone who really doesn't give two craps about FPSes, its the 360 that looks like it has "no games")

[ADC]

Is this gonna turn into a "PS3 has no games" argument, as said I really hate it when people say that
I believe the point was that Sony has made questionable strategic decisions with respect to the PS3 hardware — such as, they added HDD space and removed PS2 support, or they added card slots to some and left them off of others with no clear reason why they were there in the first place, much less why they were removed. As I'm the one who attempted to make said point, I think I'd know. Now, I haven't been thrilled with the PS3 library, but that's not for the amount of games but for the fact that very few of them (four so far) suit my tastes. That's compared with over 50 for the DS, for comparison.

[LordGeo]

(also, for someone who really doesn't give two craps about FPSes, its the 360 that looks like it has "no games")

Now I can argue that, since I only have 3 FPS for the system (4 if you want count Condemned, but that focuses more on close combat than actual gunplay [there's even an acheivement for beating the game without using a gun]). The 360 has a nice, varied line-up.

Really, none of the 3 present systems have "no games"...

[Fencedude]

Really, none of the 3 present systems have "no games"...

The Wii has no good games.

Ok, thats not true either, but its closer to the truth than any of the rest.

[Mank]

Really, none of the 3 present systems have "no games"...

The Wii has no good games.

Ok, thats not true either, but its closer to the truth than any of the rest.

Depends on where your interests lie and what you're willing to try.
I actually find myself wondering if there's even any reason to ever have to bother with both a PS3 and a 360 as they keep stabbing each other in the backs and stealing exclusives, haha... (I DO realize they have exclusives, but the vast majority of them honestly fall outside my range of interest...)

[Leon_Belmont]

Ah, the console wars. No idea how gamers take this stuff so personally, but you can't NOT take a side. Mention you like the new FF, and prepare to be slaughtered by the Nintendo crew. Take no side, and it ends the same, just without anyone on the Sony side lifting a voice in protest. You fall either way. All shall be slaughtered in the eternal console wars! Pacifists aren't even considered gamers.

Personally, my take is to play the stuff I'm into for each system, even though I don't devote enough time to probably even own one. The Wii's treading dead last for me right now though, behind both the other consoles and the portables. The only thing I've even played in the last six months are PS2 games no less. Those two Persona games are damn good. And hellishly long.

[Gatts]

Mention you like the new FF, and prepare to be slaughtered by the Nintendo crew.

Not true. There are plenty of anti-Square people who still like Playstation. :)

People who don't like turn based linear RPG. People who don't like Square because of the Enix merger. People who hate their character designs and so on. It's a rather large circle of hate that Square draws for no good reason.

[Ryos]

I actually find myself wondering if there's even any reason to ever have to bother with both a PS3 and a 360 as they keep stabbing each other in the backs and stealing exclusives, haha... (I DO realize they have exclusives, but the vast majority of them honestly fall outside my range of interest...)

This is the main reason why I don't think I'll ever pick up a PS3 because at this point few RPGs are slated for it that haven't been on the 360, and it's not like all of the improved PS3 ports are going to end up localized (I'm looking at you, Tales of Vesperia). But at this point I'm still on the fence because there isn't a main console that offers a good RPG library. Big WRPGs end up on the PC anyway, so that's less incentive as well. The only thing I know is that the Wii's RPG library doesn't interest me at all yet.

[Betenoire]

It's a rather large circle of hate that Square draws for no good reason.

Of course some (hand raised) hold some resentment toward the company due to the fact they have made many fine games other than FF over the years but for a while only seemed interested in making more FF games. (grumble no, we don't want to follow up Xenogears, we want to focus on FF grumble)

[tuffy]

Depends on where your interests lie and what you're willing to try.
I actually find myself wondering if there's even any reason to ever have to bother with both a PS3 and a 360 as they keep stabbing each other in the backs and stealing exclusives, haha... (I DO realize they have exclusives, but the vast majority of them honestly fall outside my range of interest...)
Given production costs these days, it's difficult for third parties to afford to be exclusive. For the cost of a quick port, they can try to capture both the 360 and PS3 audience at the same time. But with a higher price tag and few exclusives, the PS3 has a hard time capturing market share.

[ADC]

It's a rather large circle of hate that Square draws for no good reason.
Of course some (hand raised) hold some resentment toward the company due to the fact they have made many fine games other than FF over the years but for a while only seemed interested in making more FF games. (grumble no, we don't want to follow up Xenogears, we want to focus on FF grumble)
Leaving aside my deep-seated hate of Xenogears for a moment, it's not a surprise that Square spends more time, money, effort on FF/DQ/KH than its other properties. Those games sell more. Square is a business. It's not a charity. It's not your buddy. It owes you nothing. If you want non-FF/DQ/KH, you can buy games from Atlus, NISA, Capcom, Konami, Sega, Intelligent, Namdai, and however many others I'm forgetting. But here's the thing: FF/DQ/KH sells more than anything those companies make in the RPG space. So it seems to me that Square has a pretty good business model for placing its focus on FF/DQ/KH.

And that's part of the problem: Doing something new in this industry is not rewarded. "Real gamers" shit on Nintendo for making the Wii with a different gameplay style — and then those same "real gamers" aren't buying Zack & Wiki or Valkyria Chronicles or Ôkami or Boom Blox or whatever other somewhat obscure, totally different games. Why? I don't know. But "real gamers" want FF/DQ/KH, Grand Theft Auto, Metal Gear, Resident Evil, or whatever the fuck else. So the game companies make more of those. And they're right to do so, and not just because they want to continue to exist. When you make those games and you make a buttload of money off of them, that funds the different, interesting, obscure games. Without FF, there could never have been Xenogears, Parasite Eve, Brave Fencer Musashi, It's a Wonderful World (itself a new, interesting game that was selling fuck-all until Amazon dropped the price from $40 to $30 and created artificial demand).

[broodwars]

My only real problem with Square is that they're essentially the EA of Japan: they have all these interesting properties but are only interested in DQ and FF, and they haven't made a good FF game since FFX. I'd like to see their lesser known properties get a good 21st Century reboot, such as the Ogre Battle franchise (which Square apparently only acquired to keep it from competing with the FF Tactics franchise, and they've done nothing with it since); a new Valkyrie Profile console game; etc. Yeah, those games may not sell as much as the Big 2, but they also don't require as ridiculous a production budget as FF or as arbitrarily long a production schedule as DQ.

[Betenoire]

Without FF, there could never have been Xenogears, Parasite Eve, Brave Fencer Musashi, It's a Wonderful World (itself a new, interesting game that was selling fuck-all until Amazon dropped the price from $40 to $30 and created artificial demand).

I understand that fact as I know why Final Fantasy was named what it was. That being said there is an argument about putting all ones eggs in one basket. Plus they may make more sales off FF, but they also spend far more than they would on almost any other title. And KH came about after Square moved away from their "We just want to concentrate on FF for now" (although they did play it kind of safe by having such a strong FF presence in KH). There was a time when developers such as Square had a brand loyalty feel and the company itself had a loyal following that looked forward to Square games, regardless of if the specific title was FF.

Granted the market does reward familiar titles, which is why Hollywood keeps making sequels and adaptations of already existing properties. And like game designers they are in the boat of feeling like they have to spend ton of $ to make a title, which comes with the risk that even if the title sells big you won't clear much of a profit. And if it does poorly you may face "Game Over" for good. And thus they try to make a title appeal to as broad a base as possible, which draws many in but then also can discourage innovation and true risk as it is easier to try to "play it safe" and hope that pays off. Not that innovation can't happen, but it can be hard to justify.

Which is why a very big percentage of the games I have bought in the last year are from Atlus, NIS and others that would never have graced the cover of a mainstream game mag (before the went the way of the Dodo) and have bought so few of the ones that had (not that all these titles engage in innovation either but they appeal to me so...:sd:).

It's a Wonderful World[/i] (itself a new, interesting game that was selling fuck-all until Amazon dropped the price from $40 to $30 and created artificial demand).I disagree that it is an artificial demand. If they had said that the game would be going OoP to drive up sales, that is artificial. Too an extent some of the LE items games come with are artificial as they are designed to sway either those on the fence or those who have a compulsion towards LE items. It's a Wonderful World on the other hand just found the price it would sell at. Are Greatest Hits games artificial? And if so then does that also apply to anime re-releases as well? I think it is more a case where the demand is linked to price, and the price greatly effects what gets bought. I've had titles I wanted to buy that I held off on until the price dropped. Does that mean it was an artificial desire or a price issue? Does that mean that when the prices dropped on the iPhone and other electronic items that those are artificial as well?

[stfram]

I believe the point was that Sony has made questionable strategic decisions with respect to the PS3 hardware — such as, they added HDD space and removed PS2 support, or they added card slots to some and left them off of others with no clear reason why they were there in the first place, much less why they were removed.


Which is why I'm glad I got a 60gb model when I did. Full HW backwards compatibility with both PS1 and PS2 games, along with every damned slot in existence. :)

Sucks for those that didn't get a chance to grab a BC model, and who have huge PS2 game libraries. All they can do is buy another PS2, and grab a 360 since it seems to get most of the PS3 games anyway.

Sucks for Sony, since I think they did a wonderful job on the PS3's super-clean and intuitive interface, all it's multimedia capabilities, integrated wireless, and super-easy hdd upgrades.

Watch them drop the wireless and hdd swapout capability next.

[ADC]

…
How quickly you forget. It's a Wonderful World was a short pressing! It was sold out at most reputable retailers for over a month! It was on the Scalperplace for no less than $60 used! And then the second pressing came out, the price went back to $40, and nobody gave a damn again. So yeah, I call that artificial demand. Price drop at Amazon + Can't be found anywhere else = HOLY SHIT IF I DON'T BUY THIS GAME NOW I'LL NEVER GET IT! Because that situation says, "They're trying to clear out inventory because this is one dead duck." Greatest Hits games are a completely different paradigm, one in which games have sold well enough that the developer, publisher, distributor are all rolling in money and the game's popularity has fallen off a bit. The Wonderful World case was creating demand out of thin air.

Meanwhile, it does not truly matter that you buy games from NISA nor that I buy games from Atlus. Square looks at games from these companies with their high hundred-thousands or low millions budgets, sees that they're making a few millions in gross revenue, and says, "That's a fine model for some of our lesser titles. We'll pay for those titles with the tens or hundreds of millions of dollars we make on FF/DQ/KH." I figure it this way: Let's say that FF13 will end up costing somewhere in the $60–70 million range. That's a lot of money for one game. Even taking into account the fact that they're amortizing the cost across two games right now (13, vs13) and Crystal Tools development across however many games now and in the future, it's still a whole pile of money. Now let's say that they sell, worldwide, 5 million units at approximately $60 apiece, which would basically match sales of FF12. And let's say that they make $20 off each copy sold (which is, after marketing and licence fees and what have you, probably in the ballpark). That's $100 million in gross revenue, or $30–40 million in profit. And that's before taking into account that development of FF13 includes benefits down the road on FFvs13, a bunch of other PS3/360 games, maybe even some Wii games as Crystal Tools is at least partially portable to that platform. Would you still ask Square to pass on that opportunity?

And that's coming from possibly the biggest Square Enix whore on the boards, I, who have purchased almost every Square game to land on a NA Playstation platform so far (missed out on Tobal No.1, couldn't cost-justify Bouncer, and had exactly zero (0) interest in Dawn of Mana — o! how that series has gone to shit in a burning sack).

(Actually, the Mana series has been lousy for most of its existence.)

[ADC]

Watch them drop the wireless and hdd swapout capability next.
When the PSthree comes out, I expect that it will be the Ethernet port that goes away, not the WiFi. But yeah, swappable HDDs are probably toast unless you're a whiz with half a dozen screwdrivers (including the one made of OJ and vodka — and might I add, YUM!) and a soldering iron.

[Betenoire]

<snip>Would you still ask Square to pass on that opportunity?

I'm not asking them to pass on FF anymore than I would ask Capcom to pass on Street Fighter or Resident Evil. Just the idea that if they had more IP's they would have a chance to have another dominant title as well, because now it really seems that FF and KH are what most gamers know them for (which is fair) but back in the day all it took was seeing Square as the developer to get people excited. I admit I still have some of this feeling but I also have a sense that if the title isn't FF or KH Square's heart may just not be in it. Plus I loved the idea of the Summer of Square (even if not all the titles :sd:).

Plus having different titles lets you do a form of game testing new ideas on the public without killing your main franchise. Would FF still be around if they had implemented the Risk Breaker system from Vagrant Story in FF first? (Though Square may point to that as a reason not to have more than a few key titles).

And for no good reason I feel like playing Ehrgeiz-even though I don't have a great love for it.

[ADC]

Plus I loved the idea of the Summer of Square (even if not all the titles :sd:).
Even though the only title of the Summer of Square that I genuinely loved was the one that didn't come out until mid-fall (FF9), I agree with you on this point. I'd love to see Square try something like this again. Maybe 2010? Won't be 2011; they'll have to have something big planned for DQ's 25th anniversary; same for 2012 and FF. (The Summer of Square was truly awesome for soundtracks, though, from Legend of Mana, Chrono Cross, and the aforementioned FF9.)

I do want to discuss one point you've made, that of trying new things in small titles before rolling them into the big ones: Draw and Junction. Has there ever, in the history of mankind, been a feature less intelligently thought out? Yet that was not introduced in Xenogears or Brave Fencer Musashi. They put that into FF8, a game that was already so abominable (thanks to the characters and story) that it could have (and maybe should have) been a series-killer. Since then? Just three main-series games; four games branched off the main series, a mamorpurger with however many expansion packs; two "tactics" spins-off; a new forthcoming main-series game with two branch games; a fighting game spin-off; no fewer than eight refreshes of older main-series games and another of a "tactics" spin-off; a branch game of one of those refreshes of older main-series games; three action-RPG spins-off which have essentially replaced the Mana series (good riddance); and a "king" game (of which the evil version is on the horizon). Oh yeah, and at least three Chocobo games. (That's … uh … 32 games since the assault on the sensibilities of discriminating gamers that was FF8. And I won't swear that it's an exhaustive list.) Seems to me that you don't need to shunt all of your undercooked ideas off into minor series.
:P

[Betenoire]

I do want to discuss one point you've made, that of trying new things in small titles before rolling them into the big ones: Draw and Junction. Has there ever, in the history of mankind, been a feature less intelligently thought out? Oh look, my second least favorite part of that title. This was almost the New Coke of gaming. Someone really, really should have been stopped on this. However it was that damn card game that got me to put the game down for a while and I never picked it back up.


...(That's … uh … 32 games since the assault on the sensibilities of discriminating gamers that was FF8. And I won't swear that it's an exhaustive list.) Seems to me that you don't need to shunt all of your undercooked ideas off into minor series.
:P

No, but you do run the risk of at least taxing the brand name FF. If it gets too associated with the bad games/elements it's goose could be cooked. Or it also runs the risk of overexposure. But it does mean I don't have to watch them as closely as I once did, as most stores are more than happy to assault me with the latest Square FF standee.

Plus while the soundtracks for the SoS were cool, my favorite item is still the Chrono Cross clock.

[Fencedude]

I do want to discuss one point you've made, that of trying new things in small titles before rolling them into the big ones: Draw and Junction. Has there ever, in the history of mankind, been a feature less intelligently thought out? Yet that was not introduced in Xenogears or Brave Fencer Musashi. They put that into FF8, a game that was already so abominable (thanks to the characters and story) that it could have (and maybe should have) been a series-killer. Since then? Just three main-series games; four games branched off the main series, a mamorpurger with however many expansion packs; two "tactics" spins-off; a new forthcoming main-series game with two branch games; a fighting game spin-off; no fewer than eight refreshes of older main-series games and another of a "tactics" spin-off; a branch game of one of those refreshes of older main-series games; three action-RPG spins-off which have essentially replaced the Mana series (good riddance); and a "king" game (of which the evil version is on the horizon). Oh yeah, and at least three Chocobo games. (That's … uh … 32 games since the assault on the sensibilities of discriminating gamers that was FF8. And I won't swear that it's an exhaustive list.) Seems to me that you don't need to shunt all of your undercooked ideas off into minor series.
:P

Hey, I liked the Draw/Junction system!

(did you know that three dimes and a roll of electrical tape made grinding in that game really easy?)

[Gatts]

Hey, I liked the Draw/Junction system!

(did you know that three dimes and a roll of electrical tape made grinding in that game really easy?)

Because of the Draw/Junction system in 8 you didn't need to grind at all. Much easier than X where to get a complete Sphere Grid you had to grind a crazy amount. Maxing all of my characters out on the Sphere Grid and in Blitzball took about a year. Comparatively I flew through 8 in about 40 hours.