Kokoro Connect Discussion Thread

[something]

Originally Posted by Draneor

Maybe I'll feel differently after I've calmed down and processed it. But shoving Nagase and her taking it passively (like it was no big deal) pissed me off.

I think the normal rules of what should and shouldn't be forgiven get shifted quite a lot when a supernatural force is fucking with your ability to utilize basic human inhibitions. The only thing I thought was handled poorly was Taichi's kinda passive reaction after Iori took the hit, but I think that was just the scene not being executed well rather than him not caring. The scene shifted into Aoki's outburst right after Iori got hurt and I don't think they portrayed both Taichi's reaction to that and to Iori getting hurt in a clear enough manner. But if we know anything about him, we know he must feel horrible about that.

I'm not really a fan of Taichi. He's got really severe, terminal stage "male protagonist must help everyone" disease. But at the same time this show isn't always portraying it as a good thing. It's quite explicitly his biggest character flaw and plenty of people have confronted him about it. And saying he'll be a wife beater isn't fair given the circumstances, nor do I think Iori would have been so accepting of it if she didn't know exactly what was going on. Yes, she did react more passively than Inaban or Yui would have, but I think that's consistent with the past trauma she had, and her fear of alienating the people she loves, plus her strong desire to be the peacemaker of the group. But she does get angry, and we've seen her push back when she feels its appropriate, so she's not a total doormat.

[Draneor]

Originally Posted by something

I think the normal rules of what should and shouldn't be forgiven get shifted quite a lot when a supernatural force is fucking with your ability to utilize basic human inhibitions.

I despise the fact that he even desired to hit her. The way I see it, if you remove inhibitions, it demonstrates who you truly are. Even if under normal circumstances he would not have insulted Inaban or shoved Nagase, he is, in the fact, the kind of guy who wants to do those things. His selfless public self is a complete lie.

Originally Posted by something

I'm not really a fan of Taichi. He's got really severe, terminal stage "male protagonist must help everyone" disease. But at the same time this show isn't always portraying it as a good thing. It's quite explicitly his biggest character flaw and plenty of people have confronted him about it.

This is just not something we're ever going to agree on. I don't believe there is anything wrong with helping other people. I think the world would be a better place if people weren't selfish and looked out for other people's interests. If you help others and expect something in return, yes that's wrong. And this episode did strongly demonstrate that Taichi wasn't doing it for other people--which I think is his problem. Aoiki was dead right there. And I do think there were issues with his methods--often the only way you can help someone is by listening, being there for them, and giving them space when needed. You don't always need to give advice--especially when your not familiar with their situation. But I don't think a sincere desire to put others before yourself is a flaw. Needless to say, I have a fundamental problem with a show whose message is "being selfish is better."

Originally Posted by something

Yes, she did react more passively than Inaban or Yui would have, but I think that's consistent with the past trauma she had, and her fear of alienating the people she loves, plus her strong desire to be the peacemaker of the group.

It was completely understandable. Which is why I fear for her if she keeps a relationship with Taichi.

[something]

Originally Posted by Draneor

I despise the fact that he even desired to hit her. The way I see it, if you remove inhibitions, it demonstrates who you truly are. Even if under normal circumstances he would not have insulted Inaban or shoved Nagase, he is, in the fact, the kind of guy who wants to do those things. His selfless public self is a complete lie.

I don't think he desired to hit her, he desired to continue his argument with Aoki without interference. The release of inhibitions coincided with a very physical situation (he was damn near about to get in a fistfight with Aoki) they were in and that influenced how he lashed out at the person restraining him. Yes, releasing inhibitions tells you what kind person he is. But what it's saying here is that he is far too sure of his own righteousness and the correctness of his morals, not that he's fundamentally any more violent a person than anyone else. We saw of released inhibitions take physical form with Aoki, Taichi, and Yui (in increasing orders of severity) already, so he's not unique.

This is just not something we're ever going to agree on. I don't believe there is anything wrong with helping other people. I think the world would be a better place if people weren't selfish and looked out for other people's interests.

For me it's not a question of selfishness being better or helping people being bad. It's definitely not a question of what the real world should be like. It's about how the character trait makes for less engaging stories by allowing writers to say "man writing multi-party character interactions is hard" and cop out by concentrating all relationship development and problem-solving in one and only one character. It can make for lazy story telling and characterization. It has nothing to do with whether I'd want to be friends with them in real life.

I think Kokoroko handles it better than most because it turns his self-sacrificial tendencies into an actual plot point acknowledged by the rest of the cast, into a thing that has consequences - not always positive! - both for him and for his friends. This doesn't make me like him more, necessarily, but it paints him as just as flawed a character as the rest, if not more so. I personally loved how Aoki called Taichi out on the latter's high opinion of himself for helping the girls out in Hito Random. Suddenly the issues I had with the seeming ease of what Taichi did in that art were being directly commented on by the show, as if the genre were becoming self-aware and setting up a generic "male protag helps girls" story only to turn it on its head. At least I hope this show is good enough to exploit all the potential genre commentary there.

Compare this to other shows where the main protagonist is written a gee whiz nice guy purely because giving him a personality would be so much harder and this is an easy way to ensure 4+ girls fall in love and get their tits in his face by episode 12. So it's not the protagonist liking to help people that bothers me, it's using it as a narrative crutch and poor execution that bother me. Kokoroko manages to somewhat avoid those pitfalls by, interestingly enough, turning the protagonist into an even more extreme example of the archetype.

[HitokiriShadow]

Originally Posted by Draneor

This is just not something we're ever going to agree on. I don't believe there is anything wrong with helping other people. I think the world would be a better place if people weren't selfish and looked out for other people's interests. If you help others and expect something in return, yes that's wrong. And this episode did strongly demonstrate that Taichi wasn't doing it for other people--which I think is his problem. Aoiki was dead right there. And I do think there were issues with his methods--often the only way you can help someone is by listening, being there for them, and giving them space when needed. You don't always need to give advice--especially when your not familiar with their situation. But I don't think a sincere desire to put others before yourself is a flaw. Needless to say, I have a fundamental problem with a show whose message is "being selfish is better."

Wanting to help people is great. The problem is how this tends to get used in stories and the effect it has on characters. The main character doesn't just help people, he tends to be the key to and/or driving force in fixing everyone's problems. The girls are unable or unwilling to fix their own problems, often simply resigned to their fate, until the main character comes in and more or less fixes things for them. I want to see the girls be the driving force in overcoming their own problems.

[Fencedude]

Yeah, when you nearly give your almost-girlfriend a concussion, I think there needs to be some self examination going on on both sides.

Fujishima's fucking awesome though.

[bored@lazy]

Originally Posted by Draneor

This is just not something we're ever going to agree on. I don't believe there is anything wrong with helping other people. I think the world would be a better place if people weren't selfish and looked out for other people's interests. If you help others and expect something in return, yes that's wrong. And this episode did strongly demonstrate that Taichi wasn't doing it for other people--which I think is his problem. Aoiki was dead right there. And I do think there were issues with his methods--often the only way you can help someone is by listening, being there for them, and giving them space when needed. You don't always need to give advice--especially when your not familiar with their situation. But I don't think a sincere desire to put others before yourself is a flaw. Needless to say, I have a fundamental problem with a show whose message is "being selfish is better."

But as you said the issue here is for who's benefit is Taichi really helping people? He's gotten so full of himself that he can't seem to grasp when he's doing more harm than good. Sure, being a nice guy is not a character flaw as such but like anything if you're not doing things for the right reasons then sometimes you just need to take a step back.
If anything in my opinion this episode showed me that Taichi's acted like a selfish coward, but at least with a little bit of help he's started to realise this by the end of the episode.

[Buckeye]

- First, Yui is staying home, now Himeko is keeping her distance.
- The guys are fighting about Yui. Can't seem to agree on what to do next.
- Poor Iori gets in the way, once again as a result of Heartseed.
- Gotta keep their distance.
- A field trip is coming up. Now about how to pick those groups.
- Goto is back, asking for Taichi to move a table.
- Gotta talk with a friend about it. Not easy to do, but it has to be done.
- And Fujishima is called out to help Taichi out.
- So what will it be? Avoid hurting them, or trying to resolve things?
- And then there were none in the room.

Another great episode here as the threat of involuntarily hitting on others has really taken its toll on the group, and now, more aggressive action is needed to get through all this, it looks like. And then, there was Fujishima who is stepping in, doing what a president is supposed to do.

[Damius]

- Like I thought, Yui just made some steps forward, she is not cured. This makes more sense.
- Inaban is asking Taichi how he feels about Iori while she is in her body…
- Oh wow! Iori fooled Taichi. She was Iori not Inaban in Iori. Awesome. They will use it that way now!
- So that what it was… It’s now clear that Iori issues are not solved. I love that the show takes the time to make it clear for us.
- Inaban had to say to him to run to help Iori…
- So, Taichi was able to catch Iori and say to her what he thinks of her. No, I don’t think that Iori is like that only because she is switching roles.
- Taichi confessed to Iori…already?
- Heartseed just took Iori body…and he…jumped off the bridge….
- And now… Iori is at the hospital… Heartseed went really far this time.
- “Nagase Iori’s body will die soon” That can’t be real…
- Taichi wants to do the sacrifice…. He sure decided that fast. He doesn’t want anyone else to suffer.
- Inaban is quite right, something is wrong with Taichi…he have issues as well.
- Aoki did it in the end…
- Iori speaks to everyone individually… She speaks to Taichi in Inaban body, it’s better than in Aoki body.
- And Iori loves Taichi too… still she must feel bad knowing she will die soon…
- That’s weird… Iori in Inaban body kissed Taichi. I’m sure Inaban will forgive you; you have a damn good reason.
- Of course, Iori survive!
- Welcome back, Iori!
- That what I thought, Inaban's first kiss have been stolen. Inaban's reaction to it was epic.

WOW! What an awesome episode. It was purely fantastic. I’m so impress at how well it was done. And with that, Hito Random has ended.

[Fencedude]

So yeah. There's been...uhh...some drama. Basically this happened.

And then this happened.

2ch's raising a shitstorm over it.

So yeah.

[something]

Originally Posted by Fencedude

So yeah. There's been...uhh...some drama. Basically this happened.

So that's what happened. I read something on Yaraon about Kokoroko and a deleted tweet and a seiyuu, but couldn't translate enough of it to figure out what it was about. Someone on the production committee has a fucked up idea of what a "prank" entails. Not cool.

And then this happened.

Probably won't have much effect on sales. Dropping from 260 to 450 isn't a major change, especially when only for a matter of hours. On a longer view it doesn't really raise any eyebrows. There can be cancellations, yes, but Kokoroko hasn't been showing any indication of doing better than like 3-4k Vol. 1 anyway. I doubt we'll ever really have any idea how this affected it. Unless it comes in dramatically below Stalker estimates. I mean like 50% or more below.