Kokoro Connect Discussion Thread

[nakimushi]

Originally Posted by HitokiriShadow

"Everyone but yourself is an enemy" It seems Inaba has her own issues. She sure seemed to mean that seriously, which indicates some significant emotional issues of her own. And man, she sure got serious and pissed there with Taichi.

Never piss off Inaba when she's in, or could at some point become, your body. Even Taichi was in on it, what the hell.

That is a good example about what I still think is an unevenness of tone in this series. It is not that I have any problem with a show that has both serious and humorous scenes, it is just here they tend to clash - the transition between them seems unnatural to me.

After his talk with Inaba, it seemed somewhat odd to have Taichi apparently going along so readily with Aoki's cell phone confession prank.

Also, for all her talk about how unstable Iori is supposed to be (I never saw the previews), Inaba has frequently appeared to be quite shaken by the circumstances. Although perhaps Taichi's seeming casual attitude toward them, exacerbated Inaba's feelings of uneasiness, which partially led her to snap at him?

Originally Posted by HitokiriShadow

And then..... Yui's issues. Uuurg. I have mixed feelings about the stuff that happened here. On the one hand, the kick-to-the-balls was funny and the Yui/Taichi stuff was cute in general, particularly her pat-on-the-back greeting to him the next day.

But.... the show actually did go there. My suspicion about the cause of her fear was correct. Someone tried to rape her.

It's exceptionally problematic that she can just suddenly get over this kind of thing just because a guy gives her advice. And its kind of a problem that her fear boils down to whether or not she's strong enough to beat them off, and that its fixed, or at least improved noticeably, based entirely on showing her the 'secret' (really? she needed a guy to tell her that? its not like guys' balls being their weekpoint is some closely guarded secret...) to defeating me.

Okay, so maybe her problem isn't entirely fixed, but even making significant progress, just from that, is.... not a particularly praiseworthy example of how to handle rape trauma.

I had the impression too that her problem wasn't completely fixed either.

Yui went from being afraid that every man she meets is a potential rapist and there was nothing that she could do to stop them, to still being afraid that every man she meets (except possibly Taichi) is a potential rapist, but at least now she could stop them by kicking them in the groin.

However, maybe it will give Yui just enough relief from her constant fear, to allow her to start to realize/understand/(feel) that not every single man she meets is going to try and rape her.

With all three girls apparently having issues of some sort, I guess it wouldn't be surprising to see more using the swapping to address any long standing personal issues they might have.

Oh, and I wonder if Inaba's collapse at the end is the sign of what I thought might come up after Heartseed possessed Gotou and Iori's consciousness - two personalities sharing the same body. If Inaba collapsed because her consciousness left for another body, but another consciousness did not take its place because it never left its own body?

[HitokiriShadow]

Originally Posted by nakimushi

Really? I'm curious what made you change your mind on that. I had initially commented that what was said there did not sound like something Iori would ever say, and your previous explanation that it was really Heartseed made a lot of sense.

I went back and watched it again, and it isn't just what is said in that scene, but how it was said, that makes it seem unlikely to me, that Iori was the person who said that.

The word usage is much different from Iori's usual conversation style. I guess Iori could have been trying to jokingly imitate a more formal/sophisticated way of speaking, but I think that Heartseed being the actual speaker there, seems more probable.

I thought I layed out my reasoning fairly well in that post. Is there some part that doesn't make sense or somewhere that I made a leap without explaining something?

A big part of what made me think it was Heartseed speaking there was how the question seemed to have nothing to do with the two possible things she could be referring to when she said "I screwed up". But on the rewatch, I saw a third (which immediately preceded the scene in which she said it) and its not a bizarre tangent if that's what she was referring to. The awkward pause can also plausible be explained as just thinking and the sound effect I initially noted seems to just be a sort of "whiz" sound effect for when she points at Taichi.

I think its still possible for it to be either one, I just see a lot less evidence of it being Heartseed now. Plus I like the idea of it being Iori. Sure, its different than what we normally see of her... but that doesn't mean it can't be her. It seems quite likely she's normally wearing a "cheery and playful" mask, to hide emotional pain or something related to her crappy home life. While I wouldn't go so far as to say its not the real her, its at best only a part of her. Anime tends to make characters that behave like her idiots that are incapable contemplation and serious thought. They're typically cheerful, playful... and dumb. That's typically because its a good mix for comedy (Yui and Ritsu in K-On!, most of the cast of Nichijou) but it doesn't make for a particularly well-rounded character and isn't good for that drama. I just didn't see her original lines as something she *couldn't* say, it was mostly based on other things that have alternative explanations that I saw on my rewatch.

[HitokiriShadow]

Originally Posted by nakimushi

Also, for all her talk about how unstable Iori is supposed to be (I never saw the previews), Inaba has frequently appeared to be quite shaken by the circumstances.

Indeed. At times I was wondering if she was talking about herself rather than Iori, perhaps even projecting her own feelings onto her, as she seemed dangerously close to the breaking point herself in this episode.

However, maybe it will give Yui just enough relief from her constant fear, to allow her to start to realize/understand/(feel) that not every single man she meets is going to try and rape her.

That would be a decent way to go with it. There were two big problems with making it an issue of her ability to fight people off. First, its dangerously close to certain elements of victim blaming/rape apologism. Second.... its just not the real issue (based on my understanding, as someone who has never experienced such a thing myself). Now, since she was not actually raped, she's not necessarily going to have the same kinds of issues as someone who actually was. But the real issue here is not her ability to fight men off, but that *she feels she needs to in order to have any sense of peace around them*. All men are the enemy. And that feeling is the real issue. Having that feeling of strength to deal with them doesn't address the root issue. And as long as that's still there, there is no ability to trust and thus no ability to have a healthy, functional relationship (romantic or platonic) with men.

Hmmmm. Thinking about where they could go with it, and seeing a reasonable way they could still deal with the real issues, I'm a little bit less uncomfortable with it than I was at first. But far from completely comfortable with it. It still has problems, and it still has time to make things worse. It could again rely on advice from a male character or, worse, it could "fix" it via romance with Aoki.

[nakimushi]

Originally Posted by HitokiriShadow

I thought I layed out my reasoning fairly well. Is there some part that doesn't make sense or somewhere that I made a leap without explaining something?

Well, the only items I saw were:

Originally Posted by HitokiriShadow

And most importantly, what Iori did there DOES lead directly to the question that she asked Taichi.

So, almost all signs point to me being wrong about Heartseed switching in for that part, and honestly, I'm glad I was.

Sorry, I'm not trying to split hairs or anything, but I didn't see any more signs than that in what you wrote. Most of it seemed to have to do with describing Yui's issues and Iori's knowledge of it, and in particular the times that Iori upset Yui in that episode. I see how those interactions led Iori to say, "I messed up", but I did not see how the question to Taichi naturally followed from there.

To me, just because Iori, was at that time regretting acting in a way that she realized upset Yui, even if it was just a few moments before, it still did not seem realistic for her to immediately launch into a philosophical question like that.

Iori may very well be smarter than she has so far shown, but both the nature of the question and particularly how it was worded (in Japanese), did not seem like something she would say.

Japanese word usage aside, the speaker who asked that question referred to "Nagase Iori", full name in the third person, more than once. While it could be just part of the hypothetical nature of the question, it did not seem natural to me if Iori was the person asking it.

Originally Posted by HitokiriShadow

A big part of what made me think it was Heartseed speaking there was how the question seemed to have nothing to do with the two possible things she could be referring to when she said "I screwed up". But on the rewatch, I saw a third (which immediately preceded the scene in which she said it) and its not a bizarre tangent if that's what she was referring to. The awkward pause can also plausible be explained as just thinking and the sound effect I initially noted seems to just be a sort of "whiz" sound effect for when she points at Taichi.

I personally did not see it as being particularly relevant to "I messed up". The only way I could see that question following even somewhat naturally from what Iori said just before it, was if Iori did it to change the subject to avoid having to explain how she messed up, since that would involve revealing details about Yui that she did not feel right in sharing.

However, I do not think that Iori would try or even need to use such an elaborate method to avoid telling Taichi something - he isn't the type of person who would actually press her for information and she knows that.

[HitokiriShadow]

Originally Posted by nakimushi

Sorry, I'm not trying to split hairs or anything, but I didn't see any more signs than that in what you wrote. Most of it seemed to have to do with describing Yui's issues and Iori's knowledge of it, and in particular the times that Iori upset Yui in that episode. I see how those interactions led Iori to say, "I messed up", but I did not see how the question to Taichi naturally followed from there.

To me, just because Iori, was at that time regretting acting in a way that she realized upset Yui, even if it was just a few moments before, it still did not seem realistic for her to immediately launch into a philosophical question like that.

Iori may very well be smarter than she has so far shown, but both the nature of the question and particularly how it was worded (in Japanese), did not seem like something she would say.

Ah, I think I see the problem.

So, there are, as I see it, three things that could have caused Iori to say "I screwed up":

1. Letting the group find out about her home life situation
2. Stepping on the landmine that sets Yui off right right after that
3. Iori trying to touch Yui while in Aoki's body.

Indeed, those first two do not logically lead to Iori going off on that philosophical tangent. But in my first viewing, those were the only two I thought of. I didn't consider the #3 option for "I screwed up" until my second viewing. It sounds like I may not have been clear what I was talking about or how they were supposed to relate to each other. I was trying to lay out what led to my original thoughts that it must be Heartseed AND what led me to change my mind on that, and it sounds like it may have gotten muddled.

I originally leapt to the conclusion that it had to be Heartseed talking precisely because of the bizarre leap of the conversation. But with additional possibility of #3 (which makes a lot more sense than the others as well), its no longer such a bizarre belief, as it does directly relate to that.

The awkward pause can be reasonably, I think, interpreted as Iori thinking of how to respond to Taichi's question. I does still seem like a bit of a tangent, but I can see how it relates and she was cut off by switching back to her own body before she could bring it back to the issue her "I screwed up" comment was referring.

Now, it could still turn out to have been Heartseed talking there. It's still possible that akward pause was him taking over, so I'm not writing it off completely. But I think it can reasonably be interpreted as being Iori. I'm leaning that direction mainly because I like it better because I want the show to have Iori be someone who thinks on that level.

Japanese word usage aside, the speaker who asked that question referred to "Nagase Iori", full name in the third person, more than once. While it could be just part of the hypothetical nature of the question, it did not seem natural to me if Iori was the person asking it.

I think it makes sense to be part of the hypothetical question given the nature of the question she was asking.

I personally did not see it as being particularly relevant to "I messed up". The only way I could see that question following even somewhat naturally from what Iori said just before it, was if Iori did it to change the subject to avoid having to explain how she messed up, since that would involve revealing details about Yui that she did not feel right in sharing.

However, I do not think that Iori would try or even need to use such an elaborate method to avoid telling Taichi something - he isn't the type of person who would actually press her for information and she knows that.

I didn't think Iori knew any details about Yui's issues. That was why the "I screwed up" didn't make much sense for #2. They don't seem that intimate, so she probably didn't know anything more than Taichi did. Episode 3 seems to confirm that Inaba was the only other person in the club that knew about Yui's past trauma. However, she would have known that Yui gets creeped out by Aoki and absolutely doesn't want him touching her, which Taichi also should have known. Yui knew it was Iori in the body, but she still couldn't treat her completely like Iori.... and that gets *exactly* to the philosophical question Iori(?) was asking Taichi.

[something]

Episode 3:

- Wow. Inaban double and triple confirmed as my favorite character. All her evaluations of the other members are undoubtedly spot on, and it seems obvious that she's so harsh about it because she knows she's as close to breaking as any of them. She's easily the most perceptive member of the group, and the toughest, but I feel like her problems run deepest.
- "Why didn't you say anything?" "It was more entertaining this way." <3 <3 <3

- Hah, Aoki and Taichi are taking advantage of the swapping big time. Yui is going to muuuuuuuurder someone for this.
- HAHAHA and as punishment, Inaba-in-AOki plans to streak around the campus. Inaba you are incredible.
- How dumb do these guys have to be? Pissing off Inaba and Yui is a total death sentence. Inaba will render you emotionally dead and unable to reintegrate with human society. Yui will break every bone in your body.
- Wow, Aoki. Wow. Lack of delicacy much? Why would you ask Yui that in front of everyone?
- But it definitely confirms Yui has major issues with men. Now the question is whether it's a generalized androphobia or if it arose from a singular trauma, as I was anticipating last time.

- Meanwhile, Iori..

- Taichi and Yui switch that night. Timely.
- Yeeeeeeep. Yui's androphobia originated with an attempted rape. Oh Yui. ;_;
- Haha oh wow. Taichi teaches her the secret to defeat any man.
- But thinking about it, even if she was in Taichi's body, she still feels the pain. This is like Taichi just kicked Yui in the crotch. Of course lucky for her, they swap back right away.
- Taichi, I think you've just created an invincible killing machine.

- Yui makes really fast progress. Maybe Takanashi just needs to let Mahiru kick him in the balls a few times?
- And then Inaban collapses! ;_; At first I thought whatshisname took her over, but she just seems to have fainted. The worrying over this has clearly taken a huge toll on her.

Fuuuuck I love the transition into the ED.

Incredible yet again. I'm extremely glad we got a Yui episode, because she felt like the least developed of the girls. Her problem was solved preeeeeettty quickly, which is a tiny bit disappointing, but we've only got a cour to work with. Maybe a cour and a half considering the BD solicits, but even then I expect the main broadcast to be one cour and any extra eps to be BD only or streamed at a later date.

[HitokiriShadow]

Originally Posted by something

Her problem was solved preeeeeettty quickly, which is a tiny bit disappointing, but we've only got a cour to work with.

Yeah, but this isn't an anime original work. It's based on a novel series, and the anime is going to cover five of them. Then there's a sixth main story and two side story novels. I don't know if there will be more novels or not, but I assume its ongoing as in most cases. It just doesn't seem like the show is going to fully solve *anyone's* problems in the first novel/arc. I was pretty surprised they did something (seemingly) so major with her already.

[something]

Originally Posted by nakimushi

That is a good example about what I still think is an unevenness of tone in this series. It is not that I have any problem with a show that has both serious and humorous scenes, it is just here they tend to clash - the transition between them seems unnatural to me.

I really must be the only one who thinks the this show handles the transitions really well and would actually cite it as a major strength of the series.

Yui went from being afraid that every man she meets is a potential rapist and there was nothing that she could do to stop them, to still being afraid that every man she meets (except possibly Taichi) is a potential rapist, but at least now she could stop them by kicking them in the groin.
However, maybe it will give Yui just enough relief from her constant fear, to allow her to start to realize/understand/(feel) that not every single man she meets is going to try and rape her.

This is how I read it. I think they depicted Yui as a little too cheerful the next day, but when you look at it as just her being okay with Taichi it's not so bad. I do think her change in mood had less to do with "oh I just need to kick them in the balls?" than with a man opening up to her and making a genuine effort to help. The "tip" she received is useful, but the real lesson is that, hey, some guys will genuinely care about you. And you don't actually need to beat them senseless to have a healthy relationship with them either!

Now if only Aoki would stop being uber clingy. At least he acted quite contrite and self-critical when he finally realized Yui's problem. Maybe he'll change for the better now.

[HitokiriShadow]

Originally Posted by something

I really must be the only one who thinks the this show handles the transitions really well and would actually cite it as a major strength of the series.

Nope, I do as well. Actually, I'm not sure how you got the impression that was even a widespread complaint about the series. In any case, I don't have any problems with the tone transitions, I think they work fine. My only issues are some mild disappointment (mild mainly because I have rather low expectations for how any anime would handle rape and the issues that come with it) with the Yui issue. Other than that, its fantastic and I don't have any gripes with it. The scene and tone transitions have been fine. Well, it was odd to see Taichi participating in Aoki's idiotic idea, but teenage boys can very easily get pulled along with their friends stupid ideas.

[nakimushi]

Originally Posted by something

I really must be the only one who thinks the this show handles the transitions really well and would actually cite it as a major strength of the series.

Actually, I think I'm the only poster who has commented on it more than once - so it is not really a very widespread sentiment.

Other than the abrupt introduction of more serious elements in the second episode, during the initial appearance of Heartseed, my issue with this episode was with a comedy scene that came after a dramatic scene, that seemed to have no carry-over from the preceding scene.

To me the characters in that scene seem to act as if unaware to what had happened in the dramatic scene that it followed, almost as if they were in different shows. I do not actually think that all of the transitions have been bad though.

It bothered me a little that after having that talk with Inaba, Taichi went along with Aoki's phone confession scheme. For some reason I almost expected him to perhaps be a bit more concerned about Inaba's state of mind. Also Inaba seemed to be completely back to normal when she was planning on exacting her revenge on Aoki.

I guess a potential positive interpretation, could be that Taichi knew that Aoki's prank would actually rile up Inaba, but in a good way, and it would help take her mind off of the mental stress that was clearly visible during their conversation. It would make more sense to me anyway.

Apparently all three girls have (or will have) some sort of problem. If the source of the other two girls' issues are as serious as Yui's, I hope they find a balance between humor and drama that does not trivialize or oversimplify any complex problems. That Yui did not appear to get over her issue immediately is a least a positive sign in that direction so far.

Overall, I am actually enjoying the show, and it is definitely an interesting show to talk about.

Well, a random thing I did think about though, is that it would appear that this setup pretty much precludes any characters from actually getting romantically involved. The threat of a random body swap at an inopportune moment would appear to be a very strong disincentive.