A call for less literal dubbing!

Yep, you heard me right. Less literal dubbing can be good. [img]/images/graemlins/devil.gif[/img]

Some posters here might remember my posts from a few years ago about the Please Teacher! dub and how much I disliked it. It wasn't a problem with the acting, or the casting, or any technical sundries. I hated the dub solely due to the choice to translate whatever term Kei was using to refer to Mizuho directly as "ma'am", even when being intimate with her. My point was that no native english speaker would do this and every time I heard it, it was very jarring and took me out of the show.

Possibly I have become more sensitive to this, but I am noticing a disturbing trend with new dubs to do this very same thing, just with a different word. Or, rather, two words. And its ruining certain dubs for me. The culprit? Big Brother. I would be ecstatic if I never heard this term again used as a direct addressing of one character to another. In english...it is extremely rare for one sibling to directly call the other anything but their actual name or nickname, and hearing girls call their brother (or worse, a non-blood relation) "big brother" constantly is fairly annoying, and unnatural sounding. Now, if they are talking to someone else ABOUT their brother, then yes, the "big brother" moniker is appropriate, but not as a substitute for thier actual name. Hearing it used like this takes me out of the dub, and reminds me this is a translation, rather than natural dialogue.

Now, I'm not sure if this is done for lip-flap reasons, or just because its the most accurate translation for "oniichan" but I really think it does the dub a disservice to stick so closely to the original japanese that it destroys the flow of natural dialogue that a native english speaker would speak. Real people generally don't call non-family members "big brother" and I would very much prefer is their name was used instead.

Or possibly I'm just cranky. I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on this. [img]/images/graemlins/sdsmiley.gif[/img]

*edited to add:

And no, I'm not talking about it happening once or twice...I'm talking about when it is repeated over and over thru the entire show.

[Njr Scrawl]

So what you're saying is that the term of address should be more interpretive to the mood/relationship/setting between addresser & addressee. I can go with that, provided the writers don't go too far the other way, and really think about, and become more sensitive to the issue. Think what has gone before & how the characters may be feeling emotionally & physically, which would affect their behaviour and speech.

And just as a side topic, how much creative control/veto do VAs have over what their scripts say & what they have to say? How much pre-reading & character study time? The buck stops with them, because what listeners hear is a VA's speech - his or her voice & delivery is what endears or enrages.

[porkchopexpress]

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Gabriel said:

Some posters here might remember my posts from a few years ago about the Please Teacher! dub and how much I disliked it. It wasn't a problem with the acting, or the casting, or any technical sundries. I hated the dub solely due to the choice to translate whatever term Kei was using to refer to Mizuho directly as "ma'am", even when being intimate with her. My point was that no native english speaker would do this and every time I heard it, it was very jarring and took me out of the show.

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I think the term they used was sensei. With Please Teacher I don't think there was much they could do. When I hear the word sensei, the first thing that pops into my mind is Karate Teacher. Nobody in english calls their teacher "Teacher". If they translated it directly I would have just found it to be annoying after a while, just as I would "Miss Kazami". But if Kei called her Mizuho all the time, it wouldn't have communicated the awkwardness of their relationship either. Damned if you do etc.

Now "Big Brother" gets on my nerves as well, but I do think "Kaorusama" was perfectly acceptable in the Aya dub though. I think it should go on a case by case basis.

[machineger4]

I agree, as long as it doesn't stray too far from the original intent. This is one of the reasons I really like the Gantz dub, the characters actually talk like people in that situation. If Kurono and company spoke proper English or weren't that colorful, I don't think the dub would have the same effect it has. I'm not saying I want characters to curse like sailors, I just want them to sound like how people would in those situations. This also is another reason why I love the Super Gals dub. Some may complain about them being more colorful/vulgar, but speaking that way sounds like how teenage girls in a city talk (I haven't watched it subbed so I don't know if they talk this way in Japanese, I'm just assuming based on the previous discussions that they don't). Maybe I grew up in a strange place, but where I'm from (suburban area in central NJ), profanity was used rather frequently in high school. I'm not saying that's how they talk in Shibuya, but I can imagine it's quite possible that's how the gals there talk.

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Now, I'm not sure if this is done for lip-flap reasons, or just because its the most accurate translation for "oniichan" but I really think it does the dub a disservice to stick so closely to the original japanese that it destroys the flow of natural dialogue that a native english speaker would speak. Real people generally don't call non-family members "big brother" and I would very much prefer is their name was used instead.

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I'm guessing they translate it the way they do so they can keep as much as the Japanese feel as possible (some one calling their older brother "big brother") and try to stay as accurate as possible. I'm fine with it for the most part, but sometimes doing that just doesn't sound right in English (like you said about talking to non-family members).

[B-Rad Lascelle]

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porkchopexpress said:
I think the term they used was sensei. With Please Teacher I don't think there was much they could do. When I hear the word sensei, the first thing that pops into my mind is Karate Teacher. Nobody in english calls their teacher "Teacher". If they translated it directly I would have just found it to be annoying after a while, just as I would "Miss Kazami". But if Kei called her Mizuho all the time, it wouldn't have communicated the awkwardness of their relationship either. Damned if you do etc.

Now "Big Brother" gets on my nerves as well, but I do think "Kaorusama" was perfectly acceptable in the Aya dub though. I think it should go on a case by case basis.

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Yep, case-by-case basis is the best approach to take. I'm a big fan of Ai Yori Aoshi's dub but I can certainly see how in the hands of a less-skilled director, the devotion to literalism could have derailed it. Kaeko Sakamoto is great. In fact, I wish she was directing more instead of just casting.

"Big Brother" should never be used. At all. In any dub. Except for possibly something as frivolous as Sister Princess. But that's it.

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porkchopexpress said:
If they translated it directly I would have just found it to be annoying after a while, just as I would "Miss Kazami". But if Kei called her Mizuho all the time, it wouldn't have communicated the awkwardness of their relationship either. Damned if you do etc.


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Well, if I was in high school and Mizuho was my teacher, I'd be a lucky man. More to the point tho, I would call her Miss Kazami - that is how a teacher (non-college) would be addressed here. That sounds natural to me because that is how I referred to all my teachers - Mr. X or Mrs. X. And Kei would probably have continued to call her that even at home for a little bit, as awkward as he was - but then eventually he'd use her first name. He would never have looked into her eyes and uttered a line as banal as "oh...ma'am" [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

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Now "Big Brother" gets on my nerves as well, but I do think "Kaorusama" was perfectly acceptable in the Aya dub though. I think it should go on a case by case basis.

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I don't have a problem with something like Kaorusama. The name is unfamiliar anyway, and using a different form of the name is certainly not unheard of in English. Take my first name, William. In a formal situation or when someone does not really know the person they might call me that. However my nickname is Bill, which is what my friends would call me. When I was little, I was known as Billy. Different forms of the same name with different connotations, so it is not without precident. But I agree, it should be done on a case-by-case basis.

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Wrath of the Njr said:
So what you're saying is that the term of address should be more interpretive to the mood/relationship/setting between addresser & addressee. I can go with that, provided the writers don't go too far the other way, and really think about, and become more sensitive to the issue. Think what has gone before & how the characters may be feeling emotionally & physically, which would affect their behaviour and speech.


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I want people in a dub to speak natural sounding english, is all. Any translation is going to lose some of the subtleties of the original anyway - one shouldn't hold the entire dub hostage some silly naming convention to try and be as accurate as possible. Literal accuracy is for the subtitles, in my opinion.

[Rhodes]

ummm your not asian are you. its pretty common to call folks who arent related to you by brother or sister or uncle, aunt... course once you translated it into english what does it mean...

english doesnt really have a good translation for these terms... they arent mentors or your seniors, they arent close intimate friends... nick names wouldnt be appropriate... adding mr or mrs or ms? doesnt really work... sir or maam? and they arent blood related or even adopted or in the same family...

if your gonna translate it its going to sound awkward period... no translation would be right nor will it sound good. keeping it with the native term may sound out of place too... really is a personal choice thing.

granted i hated the dub for please... not cause the voice work was bad... just the script. when they addressed each other it was jarring and took you out of the dub. i felt alot of the terms should of been kept in its native japanese. story is set in japan, and at a school. these things i think need to be on a case by case basis.

and calling ones sibling by terms like big brother or sister isnt that weird... again from an asian perspective. you have to keep in mind, anime is asian and its scripts and stories are most likely made by asians... its apart of their culture. how one translate that from one langauge to another... one culture to another... if the setting is outside of asian... like cowboy bebop, then you can drop alot of the asian terms and it would be good. or if a story is sci-fi and the author created alot of terms just for that world... the dub or translation should use those terms and not change em to terms we use everyday. (ref to crest/banner series)

[Legion]

Okay, fair enough. When I read the topic I thought I was gonna grumble at you because advocating rewrites and inaccuracy is a pet peeve of mine but I can see that's not what you're doing. And I would tend to agree. While I prefer the script to remain faithful to the original, I also prefer that the writers use their creative muscles when applicable and this is certainly one of those situations.

[Legion]

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Wrath of the Njr said:
And just as a side topic, how much creative control/veto do VAs have over what their scripts say & what they have to say?

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Any good director will ask and accept feedback from the VA on the script, but as far as veto goes, I don't think that's an option. These VA's aren't like Gregory Peck, they can't afford to be very choosey.

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Wrath of the Njr said:
How much pre-reading & character study time?

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During auditions there's usually show and character summaries for them to read, but as far as having access to the script before recording to study, that doesn't really happen. Like the Japanese VA's, English VA's usually go in cold, though some do research on their own time. (Like Vic Mignogna for Full Metal Alchemist).