First of all I'm REALLY impressed that these comments have been this civil!  These Marvel vs. DC discussions can get ugly and I feel that the rivalry is an imagined, fan created rivalry.  With comic books in their current form teetering on the brink of extiction, we should be encouraging readership of any kind and supporting the medium as a whole!  I'm constantly pushing comic books on the non-initiated and never bad-mouthing Marvel.

@ Chad I would argue that yes, Hal would have come back.  Remember, Geoff Johns, while a good writer, was not pulling any strings in 2004.  He did Infinite Crisis which had so-so reception but he was certainly not the puppet master of DC.  Rebirth made him that.  And yeah, I guess I would argue that there just isn't a wide enough demand for a Blue Beetle title.  Those reading it liked it but it just couldn't generate enough nen interest.  I  might add that this may continue to be a problem for both companies as the price of a comic continues to rise.  People are less likely to try new things when they already have a $50/week habit or more and companies want 3.99 -4.99 per issue.

@GLCorpsMember: I do plan on reading Sinestro Corps one of these days. To me not knowing anything about it, it looked like a DC equivalent to Annihilation. And I've heard nothing but good things about it. These days comics have become much more complicated on both sides of the street and that can make jumping on a bit tough. I think that's why Marvel created The Ultimate Universe and DC did All Star. I think Marvel had a few good jumping on points over the years as well. for example the formation of the New Avengers post Disassembled, the beginning of Civil War, Planet Hulk, Annihilation, and now the Heroic Age in particular since it introduces a new status quo. I would say that the X-Titles are in the same boat as the DCU far too convoluted to find a starting point. I think that is one of Marvels biggest problems. They treat the X-Books almost as if they are in a separate continuity. They need to have a stronger connection to the mainstream MU. In closing I must say this thread has remained quite civil. Good comments all!

Chad, it's weird because I was thinking of the exact same panels your talking about. When Superman sees all the hates and crude reality he's in and Cap sees the wonderful respect the people have for their heroes, it's as if Marvel should be in DC Vs DC should be in Marvel because, they would fit better.

As for Sentry, I think we are saying the same thing but I do agree with you that Marvel may have done a better job at ''shoving'' up our throat compared to DC with some of their characters.

As a non DC fan, I can't argue on who should be Green Lantern or Flash but, overall, I would strongly oppose to the idea of the ''zombie fans''. I'm sure we could agree that, there are comic fans on both sides of the companies who will buy comics regardless if it's good or not (and yes...I admit...I still buy the Hulk comics....I just know it will end soon....right? right?....please be over soon Loeb....please.....). But many new books were offered by both companies but, how many are still going on today Vs when they came out for both companies? Secret Avengers, New Avengers, Thunderbolts, Annihilation, Runaways, Young Avengers. With DC, there also have been some good comics out (or started out well....yes you Blackest Night) but, how many are still going? Well, the truth is, I don't know if it's that good of a point since I don't know how many of the new DC titles that came out latelly are still going...but from what I read and hear, it ain't going as well.

And GLCorpsmember, I 100% agree with you, it's these types of comments and exchange that makes me love these comment boxes again. Sometimes, things can get hairy and nasty. But, like the past comments, it's nice to talk about comics.

@ Jedibanner  I know!  I love these discussions too!  A couple points about what you said regarding series' that are going strong.  A quick look at the most recent sales chart shows pretty much what is the standard trend.  Marvels top slots are dominated by X books, Avengers books and a little Iron Man, Spidey and Thor thrown in.  I will 100% agree that DC has it's own zombies and they will swallow up the core Bat books without question.  When you cite Marvel books that have succeeded I would point out that all of them you mention are team books, half of which are Avengers titles.  Just between Avengers and X books, how much does one spend per month?  The idea at Marvel it seems, is to take what works and swamp the readers with as many titles as they can get away with.  Batman is guilty of it too but in my opinion not nearly as much as Marvel relies on X books.  Those you mention are also ongoing series as opposed to Blackest Night which is a mini so naturally BN is going to end, therefore not really an ideal comparison but I see what you're saying.  Examples of DC series which have were risky yet are doing well, endured or continue to endure include GL Corps, Birds of Prey, Secret Six, All Star Superman, Batgirl or Green Arrow/Black Canary to name a few.   These aren't the greatest books out there (well GLC is) and they certainly don't pay DC's rent but neither do Thunderbolts or Runaways.  X-books and Avengers pay rent just like Bat books, Justice League and, now, GL books pay the rent.  Point is both companies have their bread and butter titles.  The difference to me seems to be that Marvel operates on volume more than DC.  It would be like DC putting out 4-5 different Justice League titles every month.  Right now DC is just riding the GL cash cow.  You won't find a bigger GL fan than me and even I am tired of seeing GL in every title just to sell more issues.  With a 3rd GL title, Emerald Warriors, starting this summer, perhaps DC is taking a page from Marvel.

Spin the Rack. What are you reading this week?

Not much from DC for me this week.
I will check out Adventure Comics #12 because it has the LoS in it.
I'll skim Brightest Day #3 as well.
 

On to Marvel... again, not too much...
Thanos Imperative--I thought this shipped last week but didn't see it. I figures I missed it since I saw a review on here. I really need them to close the Rift and get Nova and GoG back on track.

Hawkeye and Mockingbird--I was a big WCA fan back in the day, and the mini was good. This will be good.

Avengers Spotlight--Is this a reprint or something? I'd gladly return to an Avengers Solo title, with one main feature and a rotating backup. Of course, this wouldn't work with today's decompressed story telling. They'd actually need to put some meat and exposition in it for there to be some heft.

Avengers Prime #1--It's just like group therapy, only with punches and repulsors and lightning and stuff.

No X-Titles this week. Strange. They had been doing so well with one each week until now.
 
And thee?

Hal Jordan will always be Green Lantern to me, even though there were others before and after who wore the pwer ring.  Barry Allen will always be the Flash, even though there were other speedsters of the same name before and after.  Likewise, Batman will always be Bruce Wayne, Superman will always be Clark Kent, and if we jump to Marvel I can say the same thing for Peter Parker as Spider-man Steve Rogers as Captain America, Tony Stark as Iron Man, etc.

I find nothing wrong with that.  Yes, it's good to see progress in storytelling and characters age and grow (and occasionally die).  But the superheroes are more than just the costumes and much more than just their super-selves. 

Is it nostalgia?  Sure.  But if there are more stories to tell, then tell away.  Stop killing off my heroes just because it's the trendy thing to do.  Replacing characters worked in the Silver Age for Green Lantern and Flash but that was almost really a complete reimagining of the characters, not the current trend of sticking new people in the same costume and assuming that audiences will accept them.

I have no problem with cool new characters being introduced, but let's not do it at the loss of great established characters.

jedibanner - I hope you (or any other readers) didn't take offense to me using the term "Marvel Zombies" - it's a catch-all phrase that I used with the intention of getting my point across quickly and easily.  Now that GLCorpsMember has pointed out how civil this whole conversation has been, I feel bad for using it.  GL brings up good points about the "Batman zombies" and I know that both sides have their share of diehards and zombies.

And I think we are pretty much saying the same thing about Sentry vs. Bart Allen, just from slightly different angles.

GLCorps - you make a great point about the increased cost of comics and fans unwillingness to try something new (especially at that high of a price point).  I know I've fallen into that camp on occasion.  Re: Hal's return... also a good point, but while Johns wasn't pulling as many strings as he is now, he was certainly a respected writer with a lot of clout.  I'd be interested to know how Green Lantern was selling at that point... was it a hit?  Or was it doing poorly?  My point is that I'm guessing Johns submitted a pitch, and since the book wasn't exactly a monster sales success anyway, DC figured "Hey, this guy is well on his way to becoming our star writer anyway and we don't have much to lose... give it to him".   And I'll be the first to say that it's been one heck of a great ride - though like you, the "franchising" of GL is getting old with me.

lister - I know I can count on you, buddy!  I wish I had a better answer for you guys than that.  I know you want the Spinner Rack.  I want the Spinner Rack.  I know Ben misses the Spinner Rack.  Hopefully we can get something worked out. 

And thanks to EVERYONE for the awesome debate.

Duh... forgot to mention something.

My point with this column wasn't to just bash DC or say that one company is better than the other.  Personally, I have gone back and forth - I was a total Marvel Zombie in my youth and became a bigger DC fan as I got older.  I go back and forth now.  Mostly my tastes are dictated by creators - when JMS was on Thor, I loved me some Thor and when he picks up on Wonder Woman, I have a feeling I'll enjoy that book a lot as well.  But of course, I have sentimental attachments to certain characters just as anyone else does.

My point was just to look at DC and just take a look at the current state of the company, not from a financial sense, but just a general overview of their direction (or what I perceive to be a lack of).  I tried to sort of go back to Identity Crisis because it seems like that's something of a touchstone for the company, just as Civil War was for Marvel.  It seems like both companies have had "events ____ years in the making" and now that they've wrapped, I tried to do a brief look back.

DC, especially as of late, just strikes me as a company without a clear goal as to where they're going.  They seemed to be going toward their own Heroic Age a few years ago but faltered.  With Infinite Crisis, they had a story which built over several years, in several books and culminated in something special... only to stumble immediately afterward.  Marvel has learned some important lessons from DC and it often seems they use their own game plan (and unwillingness to pull the trigger) against them. 

These are just my observations though.   I don't read every book each company publishes, so I obviously can't have a complete overview. 

No worries Chad, I'm a MArvel zombies too on certain titles (although, none are with the X-men). And no offense on the term also, it's quite simple and explenatory.

It's true though DC doesn't seemed to know where it's going. Marvel now has the Heroic Age happening so, it helps a bit to define the books and what will happen with them. Now, my 6th sense paranoia does fear this is a result of the Disney suits taking over Marvel but, time will tell on that one if I'm right or wrong (but I'm scared to be right).

One thing surprises me about DC...didn't they hired Davind Finch recently as an artist? He's only doing covers...when is he doing a full book? See, i would buy whatever books he does since I like his drawing. Common DC, get o with it!!!

I'm more of a Marvel guy for several reasons. But I don't think I am a "Marvel Zombie" because I don't read a LOT of their stuff (Frankencastle and Deadpool, I am looking in your direction). And I am highly critical of their stuff when I don't like it (I consider most comics from Marvel and DC to be rather average and bland, actually). So I think the appropriate term would be: "Marvel Asshole".

You can just go with "MmmmmAsshole" for short if you want.