Debney's Passion

No matter what your views of the film or of its subject matter, taken on its own merits, the film score to THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST is a remarkable composition. John (THE RELIC, END OF DAYS, SPY KIDS, THE PRINCESS DIARIES, etc) Debney has crafted an integrated fusion of music both Western and ethnic, modern and antiquated, in a score that is as powerfully felt as any you will have ever heard. And because of the inherent power and intimacy of the music itself, it is somewhat difficult to truly take on its own merits, without some reflection upon the source that inspired it Gibson's film and the historical person and suffering of Jesus of Nazareth that motivated the filmmaker. Perhaps more so than most other film scores, the two cannot be so easily separated. Even with Debney's score achieving a distinction of its own on the concert stage, it has done so perhaps because of its association with this particular film (none of Debney's previous 100+ scores, for example, have been so honored as this one, despite their musical merits and excellence). This is all to say simply that the score and the film and each's historical/theological stimulus are too much of a whole to completely dismiss one from the other.

Q: How did you become involved in the project?

John Debney: It just fell in my lap, literally. This all started in October [2003]. I got a phone call from a lifelong friend of mine named Steve McEveety who has worked at Icon [Mel Gibson's production company] for a number of years, and he called one day. He said, "we're working on a film, Mel Gibson's involved," and he said, "Well, Mel's having some quandaries about what type of music he wants to have for this movie," and when [Steve] revealed that it was THE PASSION OF THE CHRIST, I sort of fell off my chair. Obviously I'd heard a lot about it and Steve mentioned that they didn't quite know what direction they wanted to go, musically, and asked what I thought. He sent the movie over, I viewed it, and I offered to write some music on spec, which I did. A few days later, Mel came over. He liked the direction of the music, and a few hours after that meeting, they called back and hired me to do the film.

Q: What was your initial approach? Obviously, the whole genre of cinematic films that have told the story of Christ in one way or another, have had their own "subgenre" of music to go with that, from Rozsa to Newman to Jarre to Patrick Williams. What was your initial impression coming into this project? Was the project, or the theme, or the concept of it, somewhat daunting to you?

Debney: Yeah, it was all of the above. Daunting, inspiring. In our initial discussions, I immediately felt that whatever the music was going to be, I wanted it to be very inclusive. I wanted it to have an element of world music. I wanted to have instruments of that time period. Mel liked the more eclectic approach, so really the way the score sort of evolved and turned out was through a lot of experimentation with a lot of instruments and wonderful vocalists. It's interesting because the score's a big departure for me. I think that over time, I'll be able to grasp or intellectualize what it is that I did. I will say that it's not really one thing. Mel and I discussed at length that there were elements of the score that he wanted to be very atmospheric and not traditional in approach. In fact, he used to say "I don't want it to be too 'God.' I don't want it to be 'God music.' I don't want it to be so reverential." But then at other times, I would write a piece of music that was a little more traditional, emotionally, and he would say, "This is great. But I think it could be bigger, or more emotional." So, even Mel in his thought process wanted it at different times to be different.

Q: Your score seems to be very multicharacteristic, and yet very honest. With all due respect to scores for previous movies about Christ, some of them seem very theatrical, very flamboyant. And you have taken a very honest approach to the character both the character of God and the human character of Christ; almost painting a sound picture of what the people were feeling in that era.

Debney: Well, that's what I was striving to achieve. One thing that I learned from Mel is that, being a composer for as long as I have been a composer, I come from an emotional place. And I think if I had my [IMG4R]druthers initially I would have started to write every piece in a very emotional way. But what I learned from Mel is that if all the music was of that kind, it would lessen the impact of when it is more melodic and more emotional. Mel had said, "We have to earn it. We want to bring the audience to that place, but we have to do it gradually and we have to earn it along the way." And so, interestingly enough, the first really melodically developed scene comes in the fourth reel of seven. And it really states itself during a very poignant moment that Mary, Christ's mother, has when she's remembering the child Jesus falling down. Her theme then comes in right there, and somebody remarked that that's the first time a true theme presents itself. It's done intentionally. It's done because, by this point in the film, we've earned that right to present a theme and then develop it.

Yesterday in an interview, the interviewer and I sort of came up with the thought that even the music is in three acts. When you see the film, initially the music starts in the garden, and it's of a kind. Then we come out of the garden, and musically it plays out a bit in the first act. The second act might be around the time when Mary has her flashback. And then the music is different. And then in the third act, it's taking all the elements we've had in the first two acts and sort of blending them into a whole that then moves into the richest statement of the music. That wasn't really intentional on my part, honestly, but that's the way it came out.

Q: It's not like some scores, which have very specific themes and variations, where they're developing a kind of atmosphere throughout and then redeveloping it. Your score morphs from one theme to the other, as do the different elements of the person of Christ throughout his life.

Debney: Yeah. Someone mentioned to me that it seems to be more situational. I think that's true. This is a unique gift for me to be able to be involved in this film on every level, one can imagine; both artistically and certainly spiritually. That's the main reason why I felt that it was my calling, my personal act of faith to be involved in this. Truly, the music is more situational that in a classic film score approach; but you're absolutely correct it's the idea of motifs, and developing certain themes for characters. And for whatever reason, it seems to be the correct approach for this particular film.

There's something else that works in the music and in the film. The first thing that Mel Gibson heard that I played for him was the music that became the trailer. Interestingly enough, this trailer music it has some kind of a power that I can't explain. People have related to music. There's something about it that's very elusive, and now, thankfully, when you see bits of the film on the news, it's usually the trailer music playing. And I can't explain that I guess Mel hired me based on a trailer that I wrote. It still affects me, in a weird way. It's not terribly melodic, but it's liturgical. Harmonically, it has this sort of a big build up to this harmonic progression. And it does something, but I don't know what it does; but with these visuals, it does something. And again, I can't readily explain all that, although there's something going on.

Q: As a Christian, writing music to this kind of a story, there's so much more that you can pull from, as opposed to someone who isn't a believer. I might have a more powerful sensibility coming out of it, instead of just using your craft as a film composer that you've honed over the years, because you share a level of passion for it. How was that, as far as a working process for you?

Debney: It's so hard to explain. It's so deeply personal, but I will say that it was the hardest thing I've ever done but also the most uplifting thing. Just on a purely physical level, I must have lost twelve pounds. I would joke with Mel, but I meant it, that with every lash of the whip that Jesus felt, I have those same spiritual lashes on me. The creation of the music was every bit as emotional and taxing and hard as the project was on everyone else on the film. Everyone felt the same way and went through the same process of complete trial, both physically and emotionally. The approach was not unlike what I would do in any film, it was just times a hundred because of the nature of the subject matter and because of the visuals the visuals were so stunning and so powerful, in many ways I had to divorce myself from them. And yet I couldn't get too far away from it. I talked to a very good buddy of mine, one of the key sound guys for this film. We talked very early in my coming aboard, and he had been on the film for a while, and he got very emotional. He said, "John, just be ready. The thing gets to your soul and your mind, and you can't get it out. You'll dream of it. At different times you'll find yourself in tears." That's exactly what the experience was. Just because I'm a believer, I don't know if I have a unique view on this thing. I'm sure that if you name all the other incredibly fine composers out there, they would have done a wonderful job too. But I just feel so fortunate that I happen to be a believer, and, for whatever reason, I was invited to this banquet, I believe, from God. It was an honor and I did the very best I could. And interestingly enough, when all this was going on, I didn't tell a soul, because it was just that personal. There was a lot in the wind, and a lot of things happened on the journey there were other composers involved but for whatever reason, I sort of made it to the finish line. I'm so thankful for that.

Q: In terms of crafting a texture that would work for the film, emotionally as well as historically, how did who choose the approach that you did?

Debney: This score is one of those situations where one has to experiment greatly, because a lot of this type of score is gotten by trial and error. What I mean by that is: I will set up certain musical things I'll start with a drum, or a bass line, or a bass note, and develop a motif from there, and many times wind up with a solo on top of it. That is trial and error, it's sitting with a performer in the studio and for hours saying, "Try this, try this, try that." We did a lot of that, and Mel was there every step of the way, giving us like or dislike. That's one aspect of the score. The other aspect of the score, the other side of this coin, is simply the melodic thread of more traditional aspects. But truly, in the areas of the movie that are more improvisational, it was literally sitting with this musician or vocalist and just digging through it, doing twenty takes. It's like doing a record. Many times you piece together takes of what's perfect, or what you're going for. So that's the process of sort of the two-sided coin.

Q: You Nick Ingman conducted this score in London. How did he come on board?

Debney: The reason I had Nick conduct was because I wanted to be sitting with Mel. Mel [in the mixing room]. He and I developed a kind of unique working relationship. He'd look at me and kind of a grimace or he'd shake his head and go, "Yeah yeah yeah yeah, that's good," and so he might look at me and I'd look back and I'd know, "Yeah, it's not there yet." I needed to be with him, and that's what we did. He'd get an idea, and I'd go, "Well, go out there, and tell the musician what you think. You can express it better than I do." And he'd say, "You think so?" "Yeah!" So he'd run out there, and we would laugh because you'd see this pantomime as he's acting out the scene, because he's an incredible actor, he would do far better than I. And he'd come in and go, "Well, I don't know if I explained it," and then I'd run out and tell the musician in musical terms "don't go up here, go down, play this more slowly." So that's how it was. It was a pretty neat experience. I know Mel got a big kick out of it, because he's never done it that way before. I think he also gained an appreciation perhaps for what we do.

Q: How large of an orchestra did you had to work with on this score?

Debney: Well, interestingly enough, it's not as large as you might think. [IMG5R]The orchestra was comprised of mainly strings; so picture this big string orchestra with a couple woodwinds, two percussion, four French horns, and a couple of trombones. I think the biggest orchestra we had was about seventy-five. I've had many with ninety or a hundred, but that was the nature of the score. It was really about strings, and about the choir, and even the choir wasn't the biggest I've ever used. It was fifty singers, but they sound like ninety. I can't explain it! We would be sitting with the choir, and they would start singing in Aramaic after some coaching, and we'd all be sort of awestruck.

Q: How hard was it to work out the actual Aramaic? Were you versed in that language?

Debney: No, but we had a wonderful singer friend of mine, Lisbeth Scott, who joined me on this journey, and she had things like psalms translated. There was a Jesuit priest on this movie who had done all the translations for the actors, for the script. He helped us with the Aramaic translations. He taught Lisbeth, who is a wonderful singer, how to pronounce this stuff, and then she came to London with us, and helped the choir out. So it was really a wonderful experience.

Q: Where did you get the players for the ethnic types of instruments?

Debney: A lot of searching! It would go like this: we would hear of someone, and we'd spend a month trying to get in touch with them, because many of these people are sort of underground musicians, who play on records or go do concerts around the world, so it was a lot of phone calling. This is my first foray into [ethnic music], at this level. We used maybe twelve to fifteen different performers.

Q: Are those musicians recorded separately and then dubbed in to the score, or do they perform with the orchestra?

Debney: We did both. Some were recorded separately here, some were in London, and some were with the orchestra. All of the above!

Q: What was toughest for you about this particular score?

Debney: There were so many tough things. The toughest thing was... keeping my focus. There were so many battles that I had to fight spiritually and emotionally that were really, really tough. Just know that I was incredibly tested, as everyone else, from Mel down. One can't help but be struck by how vitriolic it is. If it isn't one issue, now it's the violence issue. I saw Mel on Jay Leno last night, and Mel got a standing ovation. He said it best: Why this violence? And he said, I have two words for you: KILL BILL. Why not KILL BILL, or a hundred and eighty other movies that come and go where the violence is so gratuitous? I don't understand the depth of the venom this film has received; nor, do I think, does Mel.

Q: Where do you go from here?

Debney: I'd like to tell people I'm coming back to reality. I'm doing a comedy now, THE WHOLE TEN YARDS. But I'll never do anything like this again. God willing, if I get an opportunity, I will embrace it, but we all knew by the way, going into this thing (and I mean everyone), we all knew that, number one, we might never work again, which none of us cared about. Number two, we'll not be on this road again. This is probably a once-in-a-lifetime film. We all embrace it, we all know it. We have no delusions that we'll not go this way again. It was interesting because, all of us working on the film, from the sound guys to the grips and to the dialogue coaches, you'll hear them all say the same thing: and that is that we all are of a small group here, a brotherhood of being able to work on this thing. And afterwards, we'll go back to doing what we do, and we'll live our lives. And God willing, we'll wake up every day and breathe. But I'll tell you what we're all propelling change, including myself. And I think I've learned that if I can be a peaceful warrior now that's the way I describe it if my music can be a tool, to help people become more spiritual, then that's who I am. When you're writing about it, maybe that'll open up people to music, to spirituality. That's what I'm going to do.