Barry Bonds: The Issue

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

I think that if all of the actual facts become known, the truth behind the Barry Bonds situation is most likely to be that he did use performance enhancing substances, but that he did not actually violate the rules in effect in baseball at the time.

This is the conundrum. It is hard to accept the legitimacy of performances when it is known the athlete used drugs to enhance his abilities. This difficulty in acceptance is what taints what Bonds and others have done in the minds of people.

What must be examined is the reasons why an athlete would want to use performance enhancing drugs in the first place. Ultimately there is only one thing that needs to be understood. People will do what they feel they must do in any given situation, given the situation as subjectively perceived.

Sports, professional and amateur, are an aspect of our culture in which a great number of people have dedicated a great amount of energy. This increases the pressure on those involved to commit to and meet expectations that require an increasingly greater amount of commitment and energy. As this pressure increases, it eventually reaches the point where an athlete is required to alter behavior in order to be successful.

What I am saying, is we can't really blame athletes for cheating. We have to blame ourselves for allowing an atmosphere where cheating becomes necessary.

Given this aspect of reality, I have to consider what Barry Bonds and others have done in recent years to be just as real and true and of value as the records that have been surpassed. Bonds and Co. are a product of their times, and just as relevant because of that, as were Ruth, Maris, and the rest of the record holders.

That is my take on all of this, I would like to hear what others think.

[sickness]

So, because he didn't break the rules in effect at the time it's okay? I guess baseball's rules come before the law then.

[neglet]

He's still a cheater, and will have that caveat next to his name no matter whether he breaks Aaron's record or not.

I hope it's "not."

[Trazalca]

I like what I've been hearing in the news lately that he's currently a few
HR's closer to beating Babe Ruth's record, but the MLB organization will
NOT recognize that record since they only regard new records to be worth celebrating.
Therefore, any homeruns that match then beat Babe's record,
those baseballs that are caught by fans in the stands
will NOT be given any notification of authorization at all.
The fans who catch them can only claim it for the numbers they provide
at that point in the game itself, but the MLB will not put any stamp
of approval as anything worthy of note, and regard those two baseballs
as nothing more than hearsay.

I like that. :smirk:

Of course, it makes perfect sense to do that, but at the same time,
for the MLB to make that statement just adds to the wary eye the MLB
organization has on him, along with the rest of the world.

And if for whatever reason he feels slighted by such news,
he can apply any steriodal cream he wants to make himself feel better. :ohwell:

[DaForce]

Honestly, I look at this posturing as the B.S. that it actually is. You mean to tell me that MLB didn't know that players were juicing themselves for the last two decades? Look at McGuire and Canseco when they were on the A's together back in the 80's. When they started they sucked. Suddenly after one summer break they're both bigger and have much stronger batting arms than before? What did MLB think was happening, that those two meatheads hit the gym?

:rolleyes:

Fact of the matter is this, baseball has become boring. No, check that...it has become boooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiin nnnnnnnnnnnngggggg. The fact that players were juicing to get more homeruns had to have been known by MLB officials, but was overlooked because the homeruns put people in the stands. It's hypocritical to turn a blind eye to a problem for two decades just because it benefits the cash flow of the league, and then turn around and condemn one player as the sole cause of the problem that was allowed to proliferate.

As it stands now, MLB tests for some drugs, but refuses to test for other drugs that are in far more common use now. Can you say hypocrisy boys and girls? But I guess maybe it's easier to pin the whole problem on one player instead of taking a whole industry and holding them accountable as well, eh?

I still think they should institute mandatory steroid use in MLB. You can't play unless you're juiced. Blow those guys up as big as you can get them. That'd make the game a hell of a lot more interesting.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Honestly, I look at this posturing as the B.S. that it actually is. You mean to tell me that MLB didn't know that players were juicing themselves for the last two decades? Look at McGuire and Canseco when they were on the A's together back in the 80's. When they started they sucked. Suddenly after one summer break they're both bigger and have much stronger batting arms than before? What did MLB think was happening, that those two meatheads hit the gym?

:rolleyes:

Fact of the matter is this, baseball has become boring. No, check that...it has become boooooooooooooooooooooooooooorrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiin nnnnnnnnnnnngggggg. The fact that players were juicing to get more homeruns had to have been known by MLB officials, but was overlooked because the homeruns put people in the stands. It's hypocritical to turn a blind eye to a problem for two decades just because it benefits the cash flow of the league, and then turn around and condemn one player as the sole cause of the problem that was allowed to proliferate.

As it stands now, MLB tests for some drugs, but refuses to test for other drugs that are in far more common use now. Can you say hypocrisy boys and girls? But I guess maybe it's easier to pin the whole problem on one player instead of taking a whole industry and holding them accountable as well, eh?

I still think they should institute mandatory steroid use in MLB. You can't play unless you're juiced. Blow those guys up as big as you can get them. That'd make the game a hell of a lot more interesting.

Yes, what a great idea. Level the playing field completely. I guarantee you the press will finally back off, given that when they try and interview the players they'll get nothing but drooling for answers. :)

[sickness]

He's still a cheater, and will have that caveat next to his name no matter whether he breaks Aaron's record or not.

I hope it's "not."

And I hope it's "not" in a big way like he loses an arm in a car accident or gets beaned in the head by a foul ball and goes blind in one eye. Seriously. I've never wished bodily harm on someone who wasn't a mass murderer or dictator or the like but he's the one guy who deserves it. All of his gains that have made him HOF material are ill-gotten and the fact that anyone will even view him passing Ruth as legitimate is beyond me. The guy was a 40 HR hitter at best until he turned 35 and then he starts blasting them over the fence? You start getting weaker at 35. Scientific fact. And the claim that steroids only added 10-15 feet and the rest is his talent? Then why is he routinely blasting them out of SBC Park's right field into the Bay (the trajectory of which is the equivalent of the upper deck in most parks)? Did his skill suddenly improve at 35? I don't think so.

[CaptPike]

I put all the blame on MLB and Bud Selig. They knew what was going on, they promoted it! Baseball was close to death after the strike. Then came Cal...ok...totally legit. Not enough, though. Then came the "chicks dig the long ball" era. Sosa and McGwire saving baseball. Ahh, the accolades, the parades!

But when it comes to Bonds...piss on him. No, I don't think so. I don't think baseball gets off that easy, not with me. Everyone knew this was going on, from the batboys to the GMs. But now we'll demonize him. To paraphrase a favorite film of mine...."Arresting a guy for using steroids in baseball, is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500"....please.

I hope he passes Aaron. I hope he ends up with 800 eventually. Hey, Ruth boozed it up and smoked cigars...not a great role model either, eh?

I just dislike the hypocrisy of Selig and MLB. It's a joke.

[sickness]

It's not about being a role model, it's about being a legit giant in your field. Just imagine if Ruth hadn't been such a boozer/smoker. He very well could have hit 800. And whether or not everyone is doing it has very little, if not nothing, to do with Bonds. The fact that everyone is doing it doesn't make it right. It doesn't even make it LEGAL. Sure, there's plenty of blame to go around to a hell of a lot more people than Bonds, and they deserve it, too, but virtually none of them are within earshot of illegitimately breaking records held by the players recognized as the best ever to play.

Personally, so as to avoid the disability of the things I suggested earlier, I'd like to see MLB wipe Barry's stat slate clean for the last five years. Seems like a fair punishment for a guy who cheated his way from middling-to-decent up to HOF.

[CaptPike]

The fact that everyone is doing it doesn't make it right. It doesn't even make it LEGAL.

I agree, 100%, absolutely. However, to single out only ONE guy is wrong. And let's face it, it's been easier to single out Bonds because he's BONDS, rather than the record he stands to break. IMO, anyway.

Wipe all records clean from the "steroid era". McGwire and Sosa, too. Or none at all. That's my take on it.

[Trazalca]

But the smoking and boozing of Babe Ruth had little effect on his performance
behind the plate, while steroids have proven to show an effect on
performance by other players time and again, like Sosa, McQuire and Bonds.
Since when has smoking and alcohol been considered "performance enhancing"
for the sake of changing the outcome of your gameplay for an advantage?
That's just stupid. It doesn't work.
Now, if you're talking steroids taking effect, and if Babe took
steroids, then I can see the argument. It's about the purity of the gameplay
in the baseball diamond BEHIND homeplate.
Not the integrity of politics of how an organization runs its business with teams that play the game.
There's a difference.

[sickness]

I agree, 100%, absolutely. However, to single out only ONE guy is wrong. And let's face it, it's been easier to single out Bonds because he's BONDS, rather than the record he stands to break. IMO, anyway.

Wipe all records clean from the "steroid era". McGwire and Sosa, too. Or none at all. That's my take on it.

Actually, I had gotten there mentally with regards to not singling out Bonds, I just didn't type it out. However, I don't believe it's fair to wipe out stats wholesale. There are guys who competed legitimately who don't deserve that. Anyone that they can make a case against, though, I say do it.

I don't think McGwire deserves it. Andro was not only permitted by MLB at the time but was also legal. I know guys who have kept their own stashes of Andro (it's only illegal to buy or sell at this point, not posess) and continue to use it and have physiques very similar to McGwire.

Sosa got a hell of a lot bigger than McGwire ever did and threw out his back sneezing from a cold in May a few years back. Two things at work here: 1) Steroids slow the healing process making muscle, tendon and ligament tears more common and more severe. This slowed healing process is also what allows larger muscle mass to be built in a shorter period of time and in excess of what the body is normally capable of. 2) Steroids tend to depress the immune system which is why he had a cold in May when it was already 80-something degrees in Chicago.

Giambi, hell, wipe out his whole career.

[The Sym]

Look... The Greatest homerun hitter was Josh Gibson, who hit more than 900 HR in his 17 year career, against far more better talent, and larger fields(CF measured 420-430). Being from the left coast, even I know that. If Babe Ruth, no disrespect to one of MLB finnest, had played in an era that was not discriminatory towards Blacks, Hispanics, Latins and South Americans, Cubans, Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, now Asians, he most likely would not have hit 714 HR...especially against the specialize picthing of the mid 70's on. It is a known fact that, 60% of the Babe's HRs came in late innings(7-9) against tired arms, whom regularly pitched complete games or at least 8 innings. With that said, the Babe is the Standard, although he has been surpass by Henry Aaron and shortly Barry Bonds of the MLB and Josh Gibson of the Negro Leagues... he is unquestionalbly an iconic figure that none will be able to take away.

On Barry Bonds, the fact stands that more than 4/5 of MLB players from the 1989 - present has used some form of performance inhancers. It is completely ludicrous to think that only a hand few of players has used these drugs; but also, that MLB itself knew nothing about it and is not resposible for the climate that surrounds that sport. The only reason MLB is distancing itself and down playing Barry's accomplishment is simply because he is not a well liked player, and I'm sure some element of race as well. Please don't make it out to be all racism, because that's not totally true; however, lets not be naieve. This has polarize America, and MLB do have a history of racism. Remember Henry Aaron approached of the record. I even will admit that. Barry is not liked by the majority of fans, for what ever reasons, but he had no huge advantage, because 4/5 of the players is known to have taken some form of inhancers(an even playing field), and it still takes hand & eye cordination and skill. In MLB defense, they don't celebrate 2nd best, so, there is no need to celebrate passing Ruth, and it is not a record anyhow..... 755 is the record.

The reason Barry never got along with fans and more importantly, the MEDIA, is because of his childhood watching the way his father was treated in the mist of the climate of the 60's and 70's. If one was around that atmosphere for one's whole childhood, amongst a man one cherished and look up to, being villainfied, verbally abused, and assasinated(character), well.... I think we all get the picture. The knock I have with Barry is he nevered learn to rise above it... and that is hurting him more than anything else right now. If his attitude was more like the more lovable, or even likable players in the MLB, this may be somewhat a non-issue. MLB continues to be wrong, that's why the NFL is America's true favaorite recent-time sport. :)

[Adam54]

I'll expand more on this later, as it's definitely a topic worth discussing, but for now I just have to add this.

If Barry Bonds, records or no records, wasn't such a gigantic jackass of a human being, I would have issue with what's been brought his way. Juicing certainly went on in the 80s, and baseball is certainly turning into hypocrites by attacking this now that they're popular again (and really, where was Congress in the 80s?)

But since Bonds is SUCH a whining ass, I say he deserves everything brought his way, and then some.

And for the record, I've lost all respect for McGwire and Sosa now as well. 'Specially after that Congressional hearing.

[Stephen]

Sosa should have been banned back when he was corking his bat.

I wonder how many of these steroid players juiced up and juiced up their bats too? The whole "it was only a batting practice bat" speech was crap, he knew it, his teammates and coaches probably knew it, and he would have known the difference as soon as he picked it up if it were a regular bat or a nice hollowed and corked batting practice bat. oh brother.

As for Bonds, he is as Scumbaggy as Scumbags come. A waste of great talent, he was well onto the hall of fame path before he started taking steroids so he only hurt himself by greed, basically handing himself to the devil.

After reading the amount of steroids he was taking daily, and how many different kinds he was taking, I literally wanted to throw up. Its terrififying that stuff like that was being allowed and overlooked, that shit does way more harm to you and your entire body than most "evil illegal drugs". If someone forced me to inject several different kinds of steroids a day or do a shot of heroin while doing a dew lines of coke, i'd probably feel safer doing the latter, and those are drugs I will never touch regardless. Hes probably gonna die before he hits 50

[kah]

All of this talk is why I would rather go to Wednesday night softball games, and watch the drunks play for free, with $1 tappers and $1 brats.

I have had a problem with major league sports for a long time. My biggest problem- their ridiculous salaries. I'm sorry, but why should they make millions of dollars a year to play a game? If you want to reward them for being the best, make the salary cap 100,000. Or even 2. Pay them what a good surgeon makes. They are certainly not worth more than that. Give them a great insurance policy in case they are injured, and in the case of an injury that will prevent them from playing again, make a long-term disability policy for them. All that extra money the clubs aren't paying in salary, use to fund local schools, or parks and rec programs, or lower the price of beer, for god sakes. And lower the price of seats. If the Brewers wonder why they don't have a packed stadium for every game, maybe they should be looking at their $35-$130 seats, their $5.50 beers, and $4 peanuts. Oh, and let's not forget $15 to park.

Nope. I'd rather watch the drunks play softball on Wednesday. They are way more entertaining, besides. I had a bunch of friends that were so bad for YEARS that they never lost by less than 30 runs. That, my friends, is entertainment. And it's free.

Let's take the benefit out of cheating for the major leaguers. Lower their salary.

[Adam54]

B..b..but Cap'n Selig got you that beautiful new stadium! He'll be sad if you go watch the drunks.

Seriously....I won't get started on the whole Selig/Brewers thing. Glad you go see the drunks.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

It is all because focus on the individual rather than the team has become regarded as more important.

As sports fans, we have to decide what it is we want, and go from there. Those who pay the piper, call the tune. It is fan dollars that drive professional baseball and all pro sports, so we, ultimately, have the power to get what we pay for.

I would like to see the team be more important than the individual, and loyalty to a team rewarded by both individual and group gratification.

[DaForce]

It is all because focus on the individual rather than the team has become regarded as more important.

As sports fans, we have to decide what it is we want, and go from there. Those who pay the piper, call the tune. It is fan dollars that drive professional baseball and all pro sports, so we, ultimately, have the power to get what we pay for.

I would like to see the team be more important than the individual, and loyalty to a team rewarded by both individual and group gratification.



This is why I like hockey.

[The Sym]

:rolleyes:

[The Sym]

Stephen, your statement is preposterous, utterly speculative, and totally baseless. No facts what-so-ever to support your hypothesis, and complete here-say, based on what, a book considered highly slanderous, by most writers, whom yet, support the authors of that book, because of their own dislike and prejudices of Bonds.

The fact of the matter, Bonds has nevered tested positive for any substance, legal or illegal, banned or not. No proof has surfaced on Bonds taking any substance; and he half-heartedly admitted the cream. Key players surrounding the Bonds case has been tried in court, yet, no proof has surfaced in that trial connecting Bonds to any substance.... not even the cream, which again, he half-heartedly admitted to. The only thing true in your statement is your obvious dislike of him.

IMO, this is really a non-issue, because innocent lives are not directly affected. A bigger, much larger issue to me is the fact that if one is disliked or concidered a main-stream outcast, than one is Guilty until proven Innocent. Otherwise, if one is liked and champion or embrace the main-stream, than chances are, one is considered constitutional Innocent until proven Guilty. Which, IMO, set a dangerous prescience in the direction, not only this country is quickly approaching, but the world.

Many of you are actively partaken in this fast approach to the relinquishing of inherit freedoms. By making blind, baseless statements, with little or no facts to support your feelings; but based on here-say and emotional prejudices that one has toward those one dislike. That is McCarthyism, in modern form. Many of you realize not, your participation in this little issue, that coupled with the many other small issues, that distracts and divides people, adds up to one great, huge, big situation.... the loss of freedoms. Why not just suspend the Constitution right now; because, many of you are advocating that now, unknowningly, by singling out Bonds.

As for players salaries.... all players, regardless of sport, are entitled to what their market value bares. If that is millions of dollars, so be it. They generate 10x as much if not more or less, for the Owners and CEOs. Again, another baseless statement because of dislikes, prejudices, and obvious jealousy; because of the few who makes millions without a college degree(which is the American way) playing a game, while you(the general public) want,wish, and dream of millions, in the mist of living basically check-to-check. I suspect many of you would be up in arms, if someone capped your salaries.... WAIT! Your salaries are already capped by your employers.... where's all the guns. My apology.

The bottom-line, as long as players, movie stars, entertainers, etc. generate huge amounts of monies, than they deserve what the market bares them.... including surgeons, as well as pharmaceutist, whom both are making a killing right now. Let's cap their salaries. :wink:

[kah]

Adam- I, for one, have not gone to Miller Park once. I grew up a Brewer's fan, and my whole family went to the games every year for my birthday. Once they tore down Milwaukee County Stadium for that monstrosity with the disaster of a roof, and upped the county sales tax for help pay for it(not that they want to- the city's suing (http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=406014) Mitsubishi and vice versa), I have not gone to a game. I have also spent less than 100 dollars in Milwaukee county in the last 3 years, so as little money of mine goes to it as possible.

Sym- You can try to put your issues on me, but I'm afraid they won't stick. I'm not jealous of their salaries. I just don't think they earn that much. Yes, I understand the concept of "fair market value". As much as I would like one, I don't think a '69 Hemi-Cuda is worth $2.16M (http://www.bidtrendz.com/collectible/archives/category/auctions/), but it becomes worth what someone will pay for it. My issue with inflated salaries does not stop with sports figures. It also encompasses politicians, and actors. Imagine if we lowered the salaries for all those people. People would get into politics because they cared about making the government better, and improving the lives of their constituents, instead of for the money. College kids would get a degree before entering pro-sports, giving them valuable skills once they retired/became permanently injured. The lower salaries would lower taxes and ticket prices. In the matter of excessive revenue, I don't see why local teams shouldn't support their cities. Too many of our schools are suffering from overcrowding, underpaid and overworked teachers, cuts in art and music, a shortage of supplies, etc, etc. Just think about it. Read the Chart on Page 8 (http://www.peterli.com/global/pdfs/SPMconstruction2005.PDF). And here's what it costs to build schools in Kenya (http://www.freethechildren.com/programs/schoolbuilding/schoolbuilding_buildinginkenya.htm). Besides, who really thinks Tom Cruise needed to make 75 million on MI:2? Who even needs that much money? I don't have a problem paying pharmacists and surgeons well, they hold our lives in their hands. And, they went to school for a very long time, and accrued a lot of debt in order to care for us. I don't think it is ridiculous to say that 200K a year is a fair salary for a professional athlete. Or that politicians should make the same as the average American. Or that is was a joke that the Friend's cast made $1M for a half hour show.

Of course, I don't understand people who insist on living above their means, either.

[Stephen]

Sym, have you looked at bonds? do you remember what Bonds looked like in the 90's? even the late 90's?

The guy put on over 30 pounds of ALL MUSCLE in the timespan of a month or two, of ALL MUSCLE, that is physically impossible for any human being to do at that age, impossible. There are though several strong and very illegal steroid drugs that can help make that more possible though. And the combination of several of them even further help your chances of reaching that.

He also got all the side effects, it doesnt take a failed piss test to look at the f'n freak and notice he realistically gained disgusting muscle, lots of acne (his back became covered), a neck size close to doubled, and his batting helmet also changed several sizes. HIS HELMET. the guy lost hair and went up several large sizes in helmet size. tell me, does working out regularly in a gym do that to you? no, no it doesn't.

and you use the information from people tried in court who obvisouly took steroids themselves to back up your point? of course they are gonna lie to save themselves. How about using information from teammates and coaches and other people around him, the people that admitted to all of this stuff. Why dont you use that information? theres a lot more witness information and evidence supporting the fact that Bonds was on steroids than of the few court testimonies of other baseball phonies.

[The Sym]

Oh my Kah... you have a serious lack of understanding. :(

I'm not trying to put any issue on you. I spoke in general to all that wish to read, my opinion on a subject you interjected, yes, but not directed at you personally. If I would have typed your name(as I did with Stephen) than yes I'm addressing you in particular; otherwise, I'm speaking in general. I know you didn't understand that, so it's kool. :cool:

As for your apparent lack of understanding... Kah, do you know what country you live in? This is a Capitalist country... not a Socialist country. What you said sounds good, but it's not practical... unless you believe in Socialist Ideals. Yet, who are you to determine alone, what someone deserve to make. Your statements alone, makes it appear to be centered around jealousy; however, you say you're not, so be it.

Do you understand the concept of Inflated Salaries. Inflated Salaries occurs when a person or a group(like CEOs, City Counsil Members, etc.) raise their own salaries past what the marketed budget allows(in this case, CEO's salaries against the company bottomline and profits) and/or the inflationary index of a particular region(in this case, local, state, and federal principalities). Do you have the power to raise your own salary? Not unless you own your own business... even then your inflated salary may ruin your business bottomline, and like the large corporation, you are going to have to lay-off somebody, to compensate your own wage. Sports Players does not have that power. They are beholden to their employer, and what their employer deems, what they are worth.

Again, you live in a Capitalist country, not a Socialist one, like China for an example, whom government determine whos worth what... not determined by the consumer. Reducing salaries will not improve education, politics, skill levels of workers, reduce cost or taxes. What planet are you from? :poke: Look at all the countries, kingdoms, empires, and governments that have tried this... they all failed. Education in these places, virtually none existence. This country and basically the world is where it is today, because of the capitalist ideals, innovations, and pioneering spirit of this country.

The reason why education is ruin, politics is not effective, cost and taxes are up, and etc. is because this country is becoming more and more Socialist. Thanks to people, such as yourself, who wish to limit others accomplishments, because you see it as not fair. What's not fair is to limit those who made the attempt to work on their craft, and get where they're at today. Don't blame them because many assed around and didn't get an proper education, skill, or trade, didn't have the guts to follow through on dreams and make things happen, and was to lazy to give an honest effort, that it takes to accomplish those goals. Yet, give us an undeserve handout and make all of us equal.... right. :ohwell:

I guess in your mind, it's ok for the owners to make all the money, and not share the rewards with the players, who are directly responsible for those riches. The medical fields in some of these places are horrendous. These countries profession are fleeing these countries, and is moving to capitalist countries. I employ all that can, travel the world and view what you are willing to give up. BTW, I'm doing this for free. :)

[Adam54]

Ok, so, I've gotten a complaint about this thread, and y'all can speculate amongst yourselves why this is.

SO, since I'm having my moderator hand forced (not simply because of the complaint, I've been ready to step in here for a while now) I have to come in here and say the following:

1. Keep it to the topic at hand.(or at least in the same ballpark. no pun intended)
2. This thread, in particular the user who prompted this complaint (again, those of you reading this can probably figure it out) are on a tight leash the rest of the way.
3. Kahlan is not an idiot, she lives in Wisconsin (though you could argue that if she was aware of that, she may move from that state like I did) :D, and you have no need whatsoever to put words in her mouth.

Do it again, and we're done here.

Adam-Don't make me mod, guys. I really don't like it when I have to.

[Stephen]

Wow after that other post I'd say this topic has sure gone well off of Barry Bonds.


anyways, I backed my previous Bonds statements up well in my last post.

and it looks like he failed to hit a homerun tonight. Its sad to think he'll be the 2nd leading career homerun hitter soon.

[The Sym]

I think not. :rolleyes: Just what is it that you said that supposed to be convincing. My Dad looks totally bigger than he did just ten years ago. Everyone gains weight and/or look larger as they get older.... well at least most, that's natural. Look at my dad from the time he was 26 to when he was 36 til he was 46.

There seem to be a belief that I think Bonds didn't use some form of substance. I see, with you all arguments, you believe, I believe that. I've simply said, for those that does not read well, that nothing has surfaced that proved Bond has used any substance, otherthan what he half-heartedly admitted to. The last I check, the Constitution said "Innocent until proven Guilty". No one knows the intimacies of the case. It's all speculation until he's proven guilty.... whelther many of the people beliefs turns out to be right or wrong.

Many wants to villainfy Bonds.... nothing is being said about Selig and MLB in the press..... it's one-sided because MLB is accepted in this case by the main-stream. I wonder why?

[syphon2006]

I believe that MLB knew players were taking steroids, but come on they knew ten years ago that they were slipping in viewership to the NBA, NFL and maybe even NHL so they knew steroids were going on but more homeruns and higher scoring games bring in more people. Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Rafeal Palmiero, Juan Gonzalez, Jason Giambi, Gary Sheffield , Jose Canseco and of course Barry Bonds, they all used steroids. I believe they all did even now with a steroids policy in place athletes can still avoid detection, with human growth supplements and masking agents. MLB and Bud Selig are sitting on thier ass's and when Barry Bonds breaks the Babe's record they going to ignore the fact that about two hundred or more homeruns were hit because of steroids.

Now when it comes to Barry Bonds, yes i think he used steroids. My thing with Bonds is I don't really like the guy he's been a jerk for to long, I hope he breaks a leg or something and can't get the record (thats my little warped opinon on that) but, you can't prove he used steroids now and i don't think they ever will all this crap they are putting him through now is horrible, leave the cheater alone let him hit his juiced homeruns let him break his records you couldnt get him when he was doing it and heck he could still be but they'll never get him so I'm going to leave the poor guy alone...

[Adam54]

So, let me introduce something else...

hypothetically, if he breaks Aaron's record (or, I suppose, even if he doesn't) should he have an asterisk * placed next to his name in the record books?

[Intelligent_Design]

So, let me introduce something else...

hypothetically, if he breaks Aaron's record (or, I suppose, even if he doesn't) should he have an asterisk * placed next to his name in the record books?


As A Giants fan I would accept a compromise. Barry's records would be wiped clean. But you have to give us the 89 world series title. Since we where beat by the "Roid Brothers" Canseco and Mcgwire. I think we can all live with that.

[sickness]

So, let me introduce something else...

hypothetically, if he breaks Aaron's record (or, I suppose, even if he doesn't) should he have an asterisk * placed next to his name in the record books?

If they don't wipe out the last 5 years of his stats, absolutely.

[The Sym]

I believe that MLB knew players were taking steroids, but come on they knew ten years ago that they were slipping in viewership to the NBA, NFL and maybe even NHL so they knew steroids were going on but more homeruns and higher scoring games bring in more people.

Now when it comes to Barry Bonds, you can't prove he used steroids now and i don't think they ever will.


Well, maybe not NHL, but I agree with you totally.


Adam... he won't ever break Hank Aaron Homerun Record.... that IMHO is safe. Beside, an * really means nothing. That's just MLB way of thinking theyre getting back at someone. No one cares accept those that cover the sport.


I_D.... Never, I'm an A's fan.... and for the Yanks, please stop raiding our players as if we are your farm team.... first Reggie, than Catfish, now every few years it's someone else.

[Stephen]

As A Giants fan I would accept a compromise. Barry's records would be wiped clean. But you have to give us the 89 world series title. Since we where beat by the "Roid Brothers" Canseco and Mcgwire. I think we can all live with that.


Those guys werent nearly as juiced then. At least with McGwire, he was a very talented player.

All these players were talented players, thats why they became so good AFTER using roids. It only added upon their amazing talents. Its a shame though, and ruins the sport.

[omicron]

Barry won't sign HR ball for serviceman (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2006/baseball/mlb/05/08/bonds.713.fan.ap/index.html)

It doesn't help your public opinion when you continue to do asshat things like this, Barry.....

Omi

[The Sym]

:lol: ...are you kidding me..... why should he sign it.... this guy is probably one of the people who wants him banned or go to jail.... get real. Yet, he wants Bonds to sign the ball, to up the value of it, when he sells it. Only people in the Tri-Cities area(SF, OAK,SJ) knows that Bonds is not as bad as the rest of America thinks he is. Many of you just want something else to toot your horn about Bonds. :rolleyes:

[Adam54]

Oh Get Real.

If you seriously want to open the door on why athletes should sign balls for people who reasonably ask them....be my guest. The pompous jackassity of your attitude is reason enough for me to hold the door wide open while the rest of us poor slobs who pay baseball player's salaries come in here to pounce.

Get down off your high horse, have some fun with the rest of us. No one is above anybody here, and we all have a right to state our opinions without scorn just like you do. (yes, I know, I'm scorning you now. hypocrite, sure. whatever.)

This is strike two. Get over yourself, or it's strike three, thread closed, and the rest of us little people will move on.

Adam-God DAMN it don't make me moderate. You won't like me when I moderate.

[omicron]

I'm sorry, there's just too much evidence of Bonds being a self-centered jerk.

Starting in college (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/060504)

:dunno:

Omi

[The Sym]

:lol: don't make me roll on the floor. If you can't handle what I'm saying, count to ten, IMO...... I think I'm entitle to one.


BTW...... 713

[sickness]

:lol: ...are you kidding me..... why should he sign it.... this guy is probably one of the people who wants him banned or go to jail.... get real. Yet, he wants Bonds to sign the ball, to up the value of it, when he sells it. Only people in the Tri-Cities area(SF, OAK,SJ) knows that Bonds is not as bad as the rest of America thinks he is. Many of you just want something else to toot your horn about Bonds. :rolleyes:

You couldn't be more wrong. There is a Bonds' Sycophant contingent here in the Bay Area but 90% of us recognize him for what he is: a pompous *******.

And I dare you to make Adam mod this thread. The quietest mods usually come down with the most force when you push them because it means you've REALLY pushed them.

[The Sym]

I'm sorry, there's just too much evidence of Bonds being a self-centered jerk.

Starting in college (http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=pearlman/060504)

:dunno:

Omi



I'm not knocking his arrogance, who among you, who has nevered be arrogant, cast the first stone. Again, if you grew up as Barry did, watching the media and some fans abuse his father, called him racial name, villainfy him, ignored alot of his accomplishment, I think you would be bitter at the media and distant somewhat from the fans, I would think especially since he's an African American, when MLB and some fans of that time, has a history of racial segregation and prejudices. Many of you don't know the whole picture, but are eager to jump on the "I HATE BARRY BANDWAGON". Be my guess.... it's not going to change anything.... and many of you know it. That's why you hope he breaks a leg or whatever. :smirk:

[The Sym]

You couldn't be more wrong. There is a Bonds' Sycophant contingent here in the Bay Area but 90% of us recognize him for what he is: a pompous *******.

And I dare you to make Adam mod this thread. The quietest mods usually come down with the most force when you push them because it means you've REALLY pushed them.


NO.... you are wrong sir. There in a minority of fans that dislike him, obviously you're one.

The last I check, I was entitled to an opinion. This just proves my point.... If one is not with the main-stream way of thinking, than lets just shut him up, censor, ban, or whatever. Who says I have to agree or spit out the same opinions as everyone else, make hateful and demeaning comment, just to fit in.... HA. I'm not making him do jack, he's choosing to mod this board on his own.... obviously cause he can't handle what I'm saying.

Get real..... I'm entitle to my opinion, this is not Communist China yet. :smirk:

[sickness]

For the first 6 or 7 years he was in SF, he was pretty low key. He was paid well and he knew why and wasn't afraid to say it but his distance from the fans and all the crap he has pulled in the last 5 years has absolutely ZERO to do with how his father was treated. Especially since his dad was a HERO to Giants fans alongside guys like Willie McCovey, Willie Mays, and Juan Marichal. Did you also forget that San Francisco is is one of the most liberal, racially diverse and racially coexisting cities in the nation? That blacks have been dominant of Bay Area sports for at least 2 generations? The Giants were even the first (EDIT: National League) team to hire a black manager, Frank Robinson.

Get off this trip and get your facts straight.

[sickness]

NO.... you are wrong sir. There in a minority of fans that dislike him, obviously you're one.

The last I check, I was entitled to an opinion. This just proves my point.... If one is not with the main-stream way of thinking, than lets just shut him up, censor, ban, or whatever. Who says I have to agree or spit out the same opinions as everyone else, make hateful and demeaning comment, just to fit in.... HA. I'm not making him do jack, he's choosing to mod this board on his own.... obviously cause he can't handle what I'm saying.

Get real..... I'm entitle to my opinion, this is not Communist China yet. :smirk:

No one said that you weren't entitled to your opinion, just that you don't have to be a jackass when you speak it.

[sickness]

NO.... you are wrong sir. There in a minority of fans that dislike him, obviously you're one.

Do you live anywhere near the Bay Area? Do you have any idea what the public thinks of him here? By your statements, I would have to say "no" and "no."

[DaForce]

So what I'm heard from people at the beginning of this thread was that Bonds should have his record wiped because he took steroids.

It was pointed out that most of the big hitters in MLB since around the mid-80's have been taking steroids and so all records should be wiped.

Now people are saying because Bonds is an ass-hole he should have his record wiped? :rolleyes:


C'mon people, wake and smell what you're shoveling.

It's either everyone gets their records wiped, or people just shut up and stop their bitchin'.


Jumpin' Jesus on a pogostick!

[sickness]

I still think his record should be wiped. Not because he's an *******, which he is, but because there's a good case to be made against him for steroids. The same should go for anyone that has exhibited similar changes in physique and slugging power. I don't think wiping everyone's record clean should be done, though, since there are some players who played legit in the last 20 years. Case-by-case, man. Case-by-case.

[The Sym]

Look, sickness.... I'm only a jackass to those who disagree with me or dislike what I'm saying..... so be it. Whelther you admit it or not, the real jackass is the one who would shut down a board, merely because he has the power to do so, and disagree with someone's comments. So be it.... again it proves my point.

Again, it has every thing to do with his father and youth, he has said it, his wife said it, Mays said it, countless of writers and analysist have said it, and ESPN did a story on it.... WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

The STATE of CALIFORNIA is liberal and widely diverse.... so that means what, that he and his father are much loved....of course. You are getting my comment mixed up as if I'm speaking of hatred from San Fran. NO! I speaking of people in general across the great land, during that time, when he was away from the wonderful confines of SF.....except LA.... they have a reason, they hate all Giants players. So yes, I agree, you need to get your fact straight.

[The Sym]

I still think his record should be wiped. Not because he's an *******, which he is, but because there's a good case to be made against him for steroids. The same should go for anyone that has exhibited similar changes in physique and slugging power. I don't think wiping everyone's record clean should be done, though, since there are some players who played legit in the last 20 years. Case-by-case, man. Case-by-case.


You can't prove who juiced and who didn't.... and many seems to conveniently forget about MLB own report that stated their belief that since 1989, 4/5 of the players used some form of substance inhance drug....one form or another.... which of course Canseco also stated in his book, which he probably got from that report. Again, where is the out cry against MLB if you all are so damn serious about these allegations. WHERE?..... EXACTLY, jump on the BANDWAGON.

[DarkJedi]

The Sym, everyone is entitled to their opinions on this subject or whatever freaking subject there is on these boards. Everyone stands behind their opinions as "their truth" on the matter. It doesn't mean their right or you're right. It's a opinion.

Keep the opinions civil towards one another, people, or banning will occur. Leave the name calling and the bush league tactics out of it. That's going to you, The Sym, or anyone else in any of these threads.

Bans will occur if this continues.

Administrator.

[The Sym]

The Sym, everyone is entitled to their opinions on this subject or whatever freaking subject there is on these boards. Everyone stands behind their opinions as "their truth" on the matter. It doesn't mean their right or you're right. It's a opinion.

Keep the opinions civil towards one another, people, or banning will occur. Leave the name calling and the bush league tactics out of it. That's going to you, The Sym, or anyone else in any of these threads.

Bans will occur if this continues.

Administrator.


WHAT!.... I think I was called a jackass before I made any demeaning remark, why single me out. :smirk: Also I never said anyone was not entitle to an opinion, a few are trying deny me of mine, so what are you saying. None of these things came out of my mouth.

[sickness]

I think Kah would disagree that you haven't demeaned anyone for their opinion in this thread.

[sickness]

Look, sickness.... I'm only a jackass to those who disagree with me

I just wanted to point this part out in particular.

or dislike what I'm saying..... so be it. Whelther you admit it or not, the real jackass is the one who would shut down a board, merely because he has the power to do so, and disagree with someone's comments. So be it.... again it proves my point.

Again, it has every thing to do with his father and youth, he has said it, his wife said it, Mays said it, countless of writers and analysist have said it, and ESPN did a story on it.... WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT.

The STATE of CALIFORNIA is liberal and widely diverse.... so that means what, that he and his father are much loved....of course. You are getting my comment mixed up as if I'm speaking of hatred from San Fran. NO! I speaking of people in general across the great land, during that time, when he was away from the wonderful confines of SF.....except LA.... they have a reason, they hate all Giants players. So yes, I agree, you need to get your fact straight.

So then I have one question for you... if the actions of people outside California had such a profound effect on him, why wouldn't that increase his love for Californians particularly the Giants fans who showered his father and his father's teammates with a fan love that was completely colorblind? Why is he an ******* to the people who appreciate him most?

[Intelligent_Design]

WOW!! Defend Barry or Hate Barry. I didn't think it would bring this kind of emotion?:dunno: oh well.

[DarkJedi]

WHAT!.... I think I was called a jackass before I made any demeaning remark, why single me out. Also I never said anyone was not entitle to an opinion, a few are trying deny me of mine, so what are you saying. None of these things came out of my mouth.


The Sym, there is no discussion with me. No debate either.

I am well aware that there has been name calling and pointing fingers in this thread from several people.

I am also aware of what you have said in some of your "thoughts" towards others towards the beginning of this thread. Hypocrisy, arrogance, foolish have been words I've seen from just some of your posts.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Having one doesn't make them a hypocrite or foolish.

I've seen some people being attacked for their opinions here where it was unfounded.

Here's the message once again for everyone involved.

If the name calling or the baiting doesn't stop right the hell now, there will be bans made towards the individuals who are not listening to the moderator of this particular forum or the administrator of these forums. There is no debate when it comes to harrassing comments or childish name calling. Bans will occur.

That is the bottom line here for everyone involved.

This thread is locked. If another one starts, rules of the moderator of this forum must be obeyed by all. That same goes for every forum and the moderator running that forum. That is all.

Administrator.