Bonds, Baseball, and Hypocrisy

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

The history of baseball is one where scandal and controversy are a part of its color, and the mindless defense of "the integrity of the game" and the pretense that somehow players like Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Cy Young, Tris Speaker, Rogers Hornsby and many other hall of famers who played a game that excluded minority players were somehow "the greatest of all time" is in reality, delusional. A segregated game COMPLETELY TAINTS to my mind ANYTHING they may have accomplished.

Not only that, the first 20 or so years of baseball in the 20th century, when many "legends" played, was an ethical nightmare, where gambling on games, by PLAYERS was widespread, and the 1919 Chicago "Black" Sox were just stupid enough to get caught by the glare of public scrutiny.

The ONLY reason any of these slobs are considered "legends" is because: A: They were there first, B: People want "legends" to be icons and above reproach.

I would bet every single thing I own, clothes and all, that Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, et al, wouldn't even make a present day major league roster. To consider their "records" as anything sacrosanct or above any kind of reproach, and to try and diminish a contemporary player's accomplishments, indicate to me a lack of objectivity.

I consider whatever records Barry Bonds may set or break as the new standards, and the older records as mere historical data. If you want to keep pretending that "integrity" and baseball are synonymous, and anything Barry Bonds may do recordswise is somehow tarnished, go ahead.

[Karl Schneider]

I totally agree with you for one reason:

Baseball blatently turned a blind eye to steroids and are now using a few players as scape goats.

By doing nothing, they allowed it. I don't agree with the use of steroids, but I think the way the media and MLB has handled the situation is disgraceful.

[Stephen]

The ONLY reason any of these slobs are considered "legends" is because: A: They were there first, B: People want "legends" to be icons and above reproach.

I would bet every single thing I own, clothes and all, that Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, et al, wouldn't even make a present day major league roster. To consider their "records" as anything sacrosanct or above any kind of reproach, and to try and diminish a contemporary player's accomplishments, indicate to me a lack of objectivity.



Well Ty Cobb probably wouldn't stick around a major league roster because of the violent type of person he was. But Babe Ruth and all the others? There wouldnt even be a major league today without these guys. None of todays players would have anywhere near the talent they have without those guys before them. Sports CHANGE and progress overtime like most other things, and to attack the talent level of players from 75-100 years ago, in a time where you surely were not alive during to have witnessed what you un-proofingly assume now, is quite silly. You can go to any sport, go back 50 years and take the great players from that era and then stick them in the modern times of that sport, and surely they wouldnt be able to play it because all the sports change so much. from the speed of the game, to the equiptment, to the training, to the rules, etc. And it is probably equally true to take a modern day player and throw them back to that era. Hell, take barry bonds, before steroids and proper training, and put him in babe ruth's era and Barry Bonds probably wouldnt be major league material. Give him the old equiptment, much heavier bats, take away his proper training and whatever enhancements, and he just wouldnt be able to do it.

Anyways, I dont want this to seem like im attacking just you, surely thats not true. People did that in the last thread and got in trouble. But I was just attacking and defending that statement

[DaForce]

The SF Chronicle just did a little article about what Hank Aaron went through when he was nearing Ruth's record.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/05/09/SPGD8IO6SL1.DTL


Racism, death threats, and a bodyguard....seems like nothing has changed in 30 years....

[The Sym]

The history of baseball is one where scandal and controversy are a part of its color, and the mindless defense of "the integrity of the game" and the pretense that somehow players like Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, Lou Gehrig, Grover Cleveland Alexander, Cy Young, Tris Speaker, Rogers Hornsby and many other hall of famers who played a game that excluded minority players were somehow "the greatest of all time" is in reality, delusional. A segregated game COMPLETELY TAINTS to my mind ANYTHING they may have accomplished.

Not only that, the first 20 or so years of baseball in the 20th century, when many "legends" played, was an ethical nightmare, where gambling on games, by PLAYERS was widespread, and the 1919 Chicago "Black" Sox were just stupid enough to get caught by the glare of public scrutiny.

The ONLY reason any of these slobs are considered "legends" is because: A: They were there first, B: People want "legends" to be icons and above reproach.

I would bet every single thing I own, clothes and all, that Babe Ruth, Ty Cobb, et al, wouldn't even make a present day major league roster. To consider their "records" as anything sacrosanct or above any kind of reproach, and to try and diminish a contemporary player's accomplishments, indicate to me a lack of objectivity.

I consider whatever records Barry Bonds may set or break as the new standards, and the older records as mere historical data. If you want to keep pretending that "integrity" and baseball are synonymous, and anything Barry Bonds may do recordswise is somehow tarnished, go ahead.



Great Post A v 2.0...TEN THUMBS-UP

Yes Karl it is a disgrace and very hypocritical

One of the points I was making DF, glad you linked the article. During the Sosa/Mcquire chase, I really thought MLB has finally got over the hump, and cross the downside of racial hypocrisy.



:lol: Steph .......:dunno: about you

[omicron]

Ok, Sym, you've confused me. Are you saying all the hate and vitriol directed towards Barry Bonds during his homerun chase is because he's black?

If so, I just can't even begin to agree with that. Personally, I'd like to think that the reason he's being blasted in the press and public is because he's a self-centered, egotisical, law-breaking ass-hole who has shown his disdain for his fans, especially the non-black ones. It's always been all about him; his record, his money, his fame. Never mind that he won't sign baseballs for fans, nevermind the fact that there's numerous anecdotal evidence that he's used illegal substances to improve his performance so he'd get some glory after seeing the McGwuire/Sosa circus, nevermind the fact that he goes out of his way to avoid his teammates.

I'm sorry, I don't like the guy. It has nothing to do with his race. It has almost everything to do with his attitude and actions.

:dunno:

Omi

[The Sym]

:rolleyes: No... you obviously did read might earlier posts... I have nevered said that Bonds is hated or MLB is ignoring his accomplishment, or want him banned because of race. I have infallibly and clearly stated, "The only reason MLB is distancing itself and down playing Barry's accomplishment is simply because he is not a well liked player, and I'm sure some element of race as well. Please don't make it out to be all racism, because that's not totally true; however, lets not be naieve. This has polarize America, and MLB do have a history of racism. Remember Henry Aaron approached of the record." That's what I said and you can check that in the last thread, post 13, 2nd paragraph.

I've also said, "The knock I have with Barry is he nevered learn to rise above it... and that is hurting him more than anything else right now. If his attitude was more like the more lovable, or even likable players in the MLB, this may be somewhat a non-issue."... same thread, post 13, 3rd paragraph...:smirk: in response to your feelings of Bond, which proves one of the point I was making. If some would just properly read my viewpoint instead of getting emotional attached to what many think I'm saying in defense of Bonds. I don't need to defend him.

When it's all said in done....:lol: it's not going to change anything.... and many of you know it. That's why you hope he breaks a leg or whatever. He still sell out tickets everywhere he go. Everytime he comes up to bat, or take the field, Philly fans boooed, called him names, two objects was thrown on the field, and countless of disparaging remarks pasted on posters and signs.....:lol: yet, as soon as he hit the ball, Philly fans, jump out of their seats, many with hands and arms in the air, some jumping up & down, and the majority cheered him.... and we all know Philly fans are some of the worst. But you know what was really funny..... as soon as he struck out in his last bat in the 8th.... 3/4 of the fans left the game.... Joe Morgan said, "well there they go, now they know Bonds won't bat again" Hypocrisy.... that's why I say, hell I wouldn't sign the ball neither.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Ok, Sym, you've confused me. Are you saying all the hate and vitriol directed towards Barry Bonds during his homerun chase is because he's black?

If so, I just can't even begin to agree with that. Personally, I'd like to think that the reason he's being blasted in the press and public is because he's a self-centered, egotisical, law-breaking ass-hole who has shown his disdain for his fans, especially the non-black ones. It's always been all about him; his record, his money, his fame. Never mind that he won't sign baseballs for fans, nevermind the fact that there's numerous anecdotal evidence that he's used illegal substances to improve his performance so he'd get some glory after seeing the McGwuire/Sosa circus, nevermind the fact that he goes out of his way to avoid his teammates.

I'm sorry, I don't like the guy. It has nothing to do with his race. It has almost everything to do with his attitude and actions.

:dunno:

Omi

Maybe Bonds is simply not a type "A" personality, and he is more or less shy. He can't handle dealing with being a public figure the way people want and expect him to. I don't think it is fair to force what we want from someone onto that person, without considering that they weren't born to live up to our expectations. I've seen him exercise superhuman patience with some reporters, long past the time I would have either punched the reporter, or told them to engage in reproductive activities with themselves.

The whole Bonds controversy reminds me to think of the saying: "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

[DaForce]

Bonds has tied Ruth.

[syphon2006]

This disappoints me, and continues to put a black mark on the game of baseball. I guess cheaters do prosper...:dunno:

[The Sym]

We should have won the game, but cudo's to the Oakland fans. The whole stadium of people showed class. Congrat to Barry "U.S." Bonds.


#714

[Adam54]

Barry "U.S." Bonds?

Huh?

[Stephen]

http://www.frankgalasso.com/IMAGES/daily%20cartoon/barry%20bonds%20chasing%20714%20(Small).jpg

[Stephen]

We should have won the game, but cudo's to the Oakland fans. The whole stadium of people showed class. Congrat to Barry "U.S." Bonds.


#714


should put a big asterisk there.


#714*

[The Sym]

Doesn't mean nothing to me and a lot of people. :)

[Ronnie]

And that's the reason baseball is no longer the nation's favorite sport... records used to mean something, but not anymore :ohwell:

[The Sym]

I beg to differ... records means everything; otherwise, the country wouldn't be so polarize about it. Neitherless, the asterick means nothing to me and alot of people, not the records. People still follow the records whelther you in denial or not, asterick or not, people still know Barry Bonds hit 714 homeruns. Which is not tying a record BTW, 755 is the MLB record and 960~ is the All-Time record. Maybe they should have put an asterick next to Babe Ruth 714, because he did it in a segregated era. :wink:

[syphon2006]

Sym what you said about putting a * next to Ruth's record has got to be one of the dumbest things i've heard in a long time.

Baseball use to be my favorite sport it is slipping so are all professional sports though. Steroids are still in baseball and people are still jacking the ball, baseball is losing respect among alot of people. Bonds is just adding to it...

Also records in baseball nowadays don't mean anything to me or alot of other people...

[The Sym]

Congradulation Barry Bonds, you are Third All-Time Ever behind Josh Gibson and Hank Aaron.... and Second All-time in the MLB


#715

[sickness]

And he's still a cheating tool. Take away the steroids and he's lucky to be at 600 at this point.

[Scotia]

Congradulation Barry Bonds, you are Third All-Time Ever behind Josh Gibson and Hank Aaron.... and Second All-time in the MLB

You seriously need another hero.

[Adam54]

And he's still a cheating tool. Take away the steroids and he's lucky to be at 600 at this point.

Actually, he'd be at 616

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=hruby/060512

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Sym what you said about putting a * next to Ruth's record has got to be one of the dumbest things i've heard in a long time.

Baseball use to be my favorite sport it is slipping so are all professional sports though. Steroids are still in baseball and people are still jacking the ball, baseball is losing respect among alot of people. Bonds is just adding to it...

Also records in baseball nowadays don't mean anything to me or alot of other people...

But records set when minority players were excluded from MLB should count? You don't think records set during an era of segregation aren't tainted by that? I certainly do.