I don't feel good about this.

[Trazalca]

Canada, Australia concerned by reports Iran to tag non-Muslims (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060519/wl_canada_afp/iranrightsreligion)

Wasn't a practice carried out by the Third Reich similar to this one?

I know. The comparisons may not be fully match for match.

That's for another debate.

But this is really creepy, and oppressive in some societal way.
Whatever surface reasons there may be for doing this, the undercurrents
for this action appears damaging, and foreboding.

[fastcar]

Why not have the zoroastians wear black capes and masks?




Come on, people! Has history taught us nothing? You don't make people wear colored badges to identify if they belong to one group or another. That's asinine. What kind of crack pots are we dealing with here?









You tattoo it on their arm.










(please know that this was in all ways intended to be overly sarcastic.)

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Another example as to why separation of church and state is a good idea.

I think we've got to face the fact that the Islamic world is the enemy of civilization, and the governments that are theocratic in nature, Islamic or otherwise, are the enemies of civilization. The Islamic states have pretty much declared war on the rest of us, by action and by words.

I am as tolerant as I can be, but I cannot tolerate those who declare that my faith, my belief system, and my country should be destroyed and replaced with Islamic Law. I have tried and tried and tried to have some sympathy or understanding for the Muslim and Islamic point of view. I cannot any longer because of this move by Iran.

I now declare that a state of War exists between myself, and any practioner of Islam. I'm sorry if you're Muslim and tolerant of western ideology and social conventions. You're religion has declared itself my enemy, I am just returning the sentiment. I may have nothing against you, personally, but I find the Islamic faith as practiced to be an abomination, and a crime against all of humanity.

[KingVoyeur]

Another example as to why separation of church and state is a good idea.

I think we've got to face the fact that the Islamic world is the enemy of civilization, and the governments that are theocratic in nature, Islamic or otherwise, are the enemies of civilization. The Islamic states have pretty much declared war on the rest of us, by action and by words.

I am as tolerant as I can be, but I cannot tolerate those who declare that my faith, my belief system, and my country should be destroyed and replaced with Islamic Law. I have tried and tried and tried to have some sympathy or understanding for the Muslim and Islamic point of view. I cannot any longer because of this move by Iran.

I now declare that a state of War exists between myself, and any practioner of Islam. I'm sorry if you're Muslim and tolerant of western ideology and social conventions. You're religion has declared itself my enemy, I am just returning the sentiment. I may have nothing against you, personally, but I find the Islamic faith as practiced to be an abomination, and a crime against all of humanity.

That is the most hypocritical, small-minded, self-righteous, racist, bigoted, intolerant, criminal thing I have ever heard! What're you gonna do next? Get together a gang of good ol boys, a lynching rope and some white hoods?

I cannot tolerate those who declare that my faith, my belief system, and my country should be destroyed and replaced with Islamic Law.

But you're fine doing the same thing to them. Condemning an entire culture of people because of what some have done. This is why the world hates America, because of people like you, who feel it's their right to be judge and jury for everyone else, but if anyone says anything to you about the things you do, they should be silenced. You've decided to declare war by doing the exact same thing your "enemies" are doing. Yeah, that's the way to get peace.

[Trazalca]

Kirk? I am really hoping you were being facetious in that post... Right?

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

That is the most hypocritical, small-minded, self-righteous, racist, bigoted, intolerant, criminal thing I have ever heard! What're you gonna do next? Get together a gang of good ol boys, a lynching rope and some white hoods?

I

But you're fine doing the same thing to them. Condemning an entire culture of people because of what some have done. This is why the world hates America, because of people like you, who feel it's their right to be judge and jury for everyone else, but if anyone says anything to you about the things you do, they should be silenced. You've decided to declare war by doing the exact same thing your "enemies" are doing. Yeah, that's the way to get peace.

You are allowing your understanding of my words to be influenced by a set predefined and subjective interpretations of words based on an assumed context.

"State of War" by me means that I am taking a moral, ethical, philosophical, emotional and necessary stand. I believe that the Islamic faith teaches its followers to want to kill me (or convert me) and everyone who is not of the Islamic faith. Anything other than those two options is unacceptable to a Muslim. I HAVE NO OTHER CHOICE, based on that belief, but to stand up to it as if it is a threat to me, WHICH IT HAS DECLARED THAT IT IS.

NOW YOU FUCKING TELL ME WHO IS A BIGOT?

YOU ARE SO MUCH IN DENIAL OF REALITY.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Kirk? I am really hoping you were being facetious in that post... Right?

No, I wasn't. How often do you have to hear the words of Islamic leaders STATING HOW MUCH THEY HATE THE WEST AND THAT THEY MUST EITHER KILL US OR CONVERT US TO SATISFY THE REQUIREMENTS OF THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM?

THEY ARE WITHOUT ANY FORM OF TOLERANCE FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

YOU CANNOT REASON WITH THAT. THE WEST TOLERATES ALL FAITH'S. WE ALLOW PEOPLE TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AS THEY SEE FIT. WE DO NOT FORCE OUR CITIZENS TO FOLLOW A SINGLE RELIGION AND THEN BASE OUR SOCIAL CUSTOMS AND LAWS SIMPLY ON THAT RELIGION ALONE.

WE DO NOT INSIST THAT ANY MUSLIM DO ANYTHING, CONFORM TO ANYTHING, OR BELIEVE IN ANYTHING THEY DO NOT SO CHOOSE TO DO.

WE ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT THEM AS FELLOW TRAVELLERS ON PLANET EARTH. THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO ACCEPT ME AS A FELLOW TRAVELLER ON PLANET EARTH.

NOW, YOU DO THE FUCKING MATH!

[DaForce]

Wow, I think someone needs to adjust their medication.

























Just saying.

[Kaeos]

NOW, YOU DO THE FUCKING MATH!

easy grasshopper.....

find the center and focus on the calm inner light.....

allow the anger to flow freely from your core.....

ommmmm.......


oooommmmmm.......

:hugs:

[KingVoyeur]

No, I wasn't. How often do you have to hear the words of Islamic leaders STATING HOW MUCH THEY HATE THE WEST AND THAT THEY MUST EITHER KILL US OR CONVERT US TO SATISFY THE REQUIREMENTS OF THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM?

THEY ARE WITHOUT ANY FORM OF TOLERANCE FOR ANYTHING OTHER THAN WHAT THEY BELIEVE.

YOU CANNOT REASON WITH THAT. THE WEST TOLERATES ALL FAITH'S. WE ALLOW PEOPLE TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AS THEY SEE FIT. WE DO NOT FORCE OUR CITIZENS TO FOLLOW A SINGLE RELIGION AND THEN BASE OUR SOCIAL CUSTOMS AND LAWS SIMPLY ON THAT RELIGION ALONE.

WE DO NOT INSIST THAT ANY MUSLIM DO ANYTHING, CONFORM TO ANYTHING, OR BELIEVE IN ANYTHING THEY DO NOT SO CHOOSE TO DO.

WE ARE WILLING TO ACCEPT THEM AS FELLOW TRAVELLERS ON PLANET EARTH. THEY ARE NOT WILLING TO ACCEPT ME AS A FELLOW TRAVELLER ON PLANET EARTH.

NOW, YOU DO THE FUCKING MATH!

So you're going with the eye for an eye approach? How does that help the human race move forward?

How often do you have to hear the words of Islamic leaders STATING HOW MUCH THEY HATE THE WEST AND THAT THEY MUST EITHER KILL US OR CONVERT US TO SATISFY THE REQUIREMENTS OF THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM?

Yeah, exactly, the LEADERS. I think that if every Muslim on Earth wanted us dead, we'd be dead. As it is, I think most just want to exist like everyone else. If someone from a foreign country thought that I did and believed everything exactly like America's leader (Bush), believe me, I'd be pretty f'ing pissed.

I think western religions have done a damn good job of wanting to forcibly convert other cultures. You sound a helluva lot like that Cardinal over in the "DaVinci Code" thread who was complaing about how people weren't respecting Christians' human rights. Yeah, I'm sure the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Hunts, the law that said you could shoot a Mormon on sight in the US, that was all REAL tolerant of other faiths.

[Intelligent_Design]

Another example as to why separation of church and state is a good idea.

I think we've got to face the fact that the Islamic world is the enemy of civilization, and the governments that are theocratic in nature, Islamic or otherwise, are the enemies of civilization. The Islamic states have pretty much declared war on the rest of us, by action and by words.

I think you are half right. Islam like every other religion has been highjacked by People that put their Interest over the interest of the teachings they preach. Islam started out as one of the most progressive Religions of its time. At some point the pursuit of ILM was replaced with Jihad.


I have tried and tried and tried to have some sympathy or understanding for the Muslim and Islamic point of view. . You must not have tried that hard because their history will answer all your questions. And as future reference anytime you can't comprehend any groups actions just look at their history. It usually answers most of your questions.

I now declare that a state of War exists between myself, and any practioner of Islam. I'm sorry if you're Muslim and tolerant of western ideology and social conventions. You're religion has declared itself my enemy, I am just returning the sentiment. I may have nothing against you, personally, but I find the Islamic faith as practiced to be an abomination, and a crime against all of humanity.

Sounds like you have lowered yourself to the level of the people you claim to detest soo much. Sad.:(

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

So you're going with the eye for an eye approach? How does that help the human race move forward?



Yeah, exactly, the LEADERS. I think that if every Muslim on Earth wanted us dead, we'd be dead. As it is, I think most just want to exist like everyone else. If someone from a foreign country thought that I did and believed everything exactly like America's leader (Bush), believe me, I'd be pretty f'ing pissed.

I think western religions have done a damn good job of wanting to forcibly convert other cultures. You sound a helluva lot like that Cardinal over in the "DaVinci Code" thread who was complaing about how people weren't respecting Christians' human rights. Yeah, I'm sure the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Salem Witch Hunts, the law that said you could shoot a Mormon on sight in the US, that was all REAL tolerant of other faiths.

I have no other choice. I am being told I will be killed unless I convert to some religion. I don't want to convert to that religion. The right thing to do is to take a stand. If I do not take a stand, then I stand for nothing.

You do not seem to understand the nature of reality in the same way that I do. No amount of applying tolerance, sympathy, compassion, or any other ideal towards the Islamic faith allows me to co-exist with it. It is their choice, they choose not to co-exist with us. Your references to events in history where Christians committed atrocities HAVE NO RELEVANCE WHATSOEVER.

In a sense, the situation is simply kill or be killed. I have the right to self-defense and I am exercising that right. God did not create humans to be completely stupid. We have the God given right to defend ourselves if attacked, and I am exercising that right figuratively here.

The last time I checked, the chronology of recent events was:

1. Iraq invades Kuwait
U.S. and allies respond

2. WTC destroyed and Pentagon damaged by suicide planes
U.S. invades Afghanistan

3. Saddam Hussein refuses to fully comply with the full scope of U.N. mandated inspections and remains a despotic leader.
U.S. and allies invade Iraq (I supported the invasion and removal of Saddam. I do not support our continuing occupation.)

Note the pattern. All of our actions were in response to something. We did not instigate anything, we responded to either provocations or direct attack. You keep claiming we want to force some way of life or culture onto others. Please tell me where that is happening? References to past historical events are not relevant. Those things cannot be changed. Everyone has already admitted many of the things that occured in the past were a mistake, but we cannot change the fact that they've happened.

[fastcar]

Frankly, if there is such a thing as higher beings, God, Buddha, and Allah are sitting at a bar banging their heads off the brass railing.

"Boy, did they all miss the point down there. Were they not paying attention?"

[KingVoyeur]

So let me ask you something. You've declared war on any practitioner of Islam. What're you gonna do? Are are you gonna find out if your targets of misplaced anger are actually Muslim, or just anyone you think happens to look Muslim? You must have a pretty crappy life if every Muslim you've ever met has demanded you convert or die.

Oh, and I love your argument saying that nothing I say has any relevance. By stating that the past has no significance, you effectively make any argument against your point of view invalid, regardless of how sound. It's egocentric, self-righteous, arrogant people like you that scare me the most.

[Intelligent_Design]

References to past historical events are not relevant. Those things cannot be changed. Everyone has already admitted many of the things that occured in the past were a mistake, but we cannot change the fact that they've happened.

Wow!!! History has become irrelevant? We have entered a Brave New World.:rolleyes:

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Wow!!! History has become irrelevant? We have entered a Brave New World.:rolleyes:

What the hell is it you think I'm saying? Why is this not a simple thing to understand?

I have been told I am hated and should be killed or converted to a particular religion by a particular group of people.

I have been told by this group that they will not accept anything less than my death or conversion.

This is personal, and has nothing to do with politics or anything else. I have been threatened, and I am responding to that threat. What anyone else chooses to do is their business, and I don't insist anyone else follow my path. This is strictly between me and those who've stated they are my enemy. They stated it first, not me.

In that sense no amount of history or anything else applies. I'm dealing with the here and now, which is immediate. I cannot do anything about what has happened, what should happen, etc., etc., etc. I must face reality and deal with it. Anything less is avoiding reality. At some point the most basic things must be addressed, and I'm addressing one. Someone wants me dead, I don't want to be dead. There is nothing else relevant to me for consideration, and neither should there be for me.

[Intelligent_Design]

Oh, and I love your argument saying that nothing I say has any relevance. By stating that the past has no significance, you effectively make any argument against your point of view invalid, regardless of how sound. It's egocentric, self-righteous, arrogant people like you that scare me the most.

That is reason why I despise the Current state of religion. This Angry vitriol coming from all sides is shameful at the least. Jake and others seem to believe the world would be a better place if all religion was done away with. I think shit like this just proves them right.

[KingVoyeur]

Ok, I was gonna post something else here, but then I realized this argument is pointless. So that's it, I'm done. :dunno:

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Ok, I was gonna post something else here, but then I realized this argument is pointless because there's no talking to small-minded idiots. So that's it, I'm done. :dunno:

I'm not claiming the way I feel is right. I'm claiming I feel this way. It is entirely subjective and personal, and has nothing to do with anything other than that. Your point of view is not relevant to me, as I am discussing my own personal feelings. Telling me my feelings are wrong is not relevant, because I feel the way I feel based on my own subjective reality. This isn't something that can be argued with, denied, or insulted. I feel what I feel and I'm not saying anyone other than myself should feel the way I do.

Calling someone a small-minded idiot because their feelings are not the same as yours makes no sense to me. You're entitled to your beliefs, whether I agree with them or not, and if I don't that does not make you an idiot. It makes you someone with a different opinion.

[Intelligent_Design]

What the hell is it you think I'm saying? Why is this not a simple thing to understand?

I have been told I am hated and should be killed or converted to a particular religion by a particular group of people.

I have been told by this group that they will not accept anything less than my death or conversion.. Dude, thats the way of the world. There is always gonna be a person or group of people out there that will not like you just because who you are. Trust me I know first hand. I'm black and grew up in the South. But you can't let that shit bring you down to their level. It just won't solve anything.

[Bokchoi Cowboy]

Note to Jarrod: Hey dude, perhaps it is time to change Asonokirk's username to "American 2.0", since he is starting to sound so much like him in his prolific rants....

[Intelligent_Design]

Note to Jarrod: Hey dude, perhaps it is time to change Asonokirk's username to "American 2.0", since he is starting to sound so much like him in his prolific rants....

While I disagree with Asonokirk, his anti-muslim position is becoming popular in today world. Not just in America either. I know a lot of people that feel that the same way he does. And aren't so eloquent about it.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Dude, thats the way of the world. There is always gonna be a person or group of people out there that will not like you just because who you are. Trust me I know first hand. I'm black and grew up in the South. But you can't let that shit bring you down to their level. It just won't solve anything.

Maybe I shouldn't, but to deny how I feel is lying and counterproductive. I'm not going to lie about how I feel.

[Kaeos]

Note to Jarrod: Hey dude, perhaps it is time to change Asonokirk's username to "American 2.0", since he is starting to sound so much like him in his prolific rants....

Well....maybe not as bad this time but stilll

"How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Bokchoi Cowboy

Redux: Part Deux (http://messageboard.cinescape.com/cinescape/forums/showpost.php?p=13354&postcount=4)

Let the man have his opinions. Don't lurk in the shadows and wait to pounce just to pick on someone man. That is sooooo 2004. :smirk:

[Bokchoi Cowboy]

Well....maybe not as bad this time but stilll

"How to Win Friends and Influence People" by Bokchoi Cowboy

Redux: Part Deux (http://messageboard.cinescape.com/cinescape/forums/showpost.php?p=13354&postcount=4)

Let the man have his opinions. Don't lurk in the shadows and wait to pounce just to pick on someone man. That is sooooo 2004. :smirk:

Kaeos, can I simply post without you hammering me? What is the problem?

[Kaeos]

There's no problem brother Bok, other than you've been hammering Kirk unecessarily. It's a little blatant. Give it a rest.

You're supposedly a moderator. Act like one.

[Asonokirk V 2.0]

Nobody's comments bothered me, and I probably deserve them as I can understand their viewpoints. However, I reacted to the initial post about Iran passing a law forcing people to wear some kind of badge identifying them as a non-Muslim. That instantly brought back an association to what the Nazi's did to the Jews, and I was furious.

Notice, not once did I say I hated anything. I stated that Islam was my enemy. Jesus said to love your enemies, and I do, but that love is tempered with rationality. I have the right to defend my way of life, and it seems to me that my way of life is incompatible with some in this world. They choose to hate me, I do not choose to hate them.

[tstone]

These things are not the tenents of Islam. They are the tenents of power hungry fanatics. You hear similar shiite from some of the Christian right wing loons in this country. The only difference between the two is the Christian right wingers in America have no society at large or political structure to truly make their apocalyptic agenda manifest.

Lord knows, we are too damn close to that with the current Admin.

[Space Tycoon]

Much ado about nothing?

Jewish MP denies Iran badge plan
(http://www.heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5478,19196947%255E1702,00.html)

IRAN'S only Jewish MP strongly denied reports in a Canadian newspaper overnight that Iran may force non-Muslims to wear coloured badges in public so they can be identified.

"This report is a complete fabrication and is totally false," Maurice Motammed said in Tehran. "It is a lie, and the people who invented it wanted to make political gain" by doing so.




.

[Space Tycoon]

Even if it were true, I would still say diplomacy was the answer. It's their country, they have the right to pass whatever laws they like, backward though they may be. Such a policy would be no worse than India's caste system, which still clings to life after all these years; Israel's apartheid wall and race-based citizenship laws; China's policies towards homosexuals and religious minorities; Russia's ongoing persecution of ethnic minorities, etc.

The world is full of bigots and intolerants in high places. I don't see any great clamour to remove them. Isn't it interesting that when one of them targets Jews, as opposed to other minorities, the Western media and the far right goes ballistic.

Funny, that.



Oh, and another thing. Ahmedinajad is not Hitler. Chavez is not Hitler. Saddam was not Hitler. Osama bin Laden is not Hitler. Neither is Bush. There is no-one alive on Earth who even comes close to Hitler.

Can we please stop comparing every badguy to Hitler? Can we just let Hitler die already?

Especially since anyone who truly understands history knows that Stalin was worse, and yet he was our ally.

My $ 0.02.




.

[tstone]

I think it was Bill Maher who once said about Hitler, "What's with all these guys being compared to me? I EARNED my rep, and I don't like it being diluted with all these wanna bes and pretenders."

Hitler was Hitler. That's it.

Oh wait, it may have been Jon Stewart, rather than Maher. I forget.




Even if it were true, I would still say diplomacy was the answer. It's their country, they have the right to pass whatever laws they like, backward though they may be. Such a policy would be no worse than India's caste system, which still clings to life after all these years; Israel's apartheid wall and race-based citizenship laws; China's policies towards homosexuals and religious minorities; Russia's ongoing persecution of ethnic minorities, etc.

The world is full of bigots and intolerants in high places. I don't see any great clamour to remove them. Isn't it interesting that when one of them targets Jews, as opposed to other minorities, the Western media and the far right goes ballistic.

Funny, that.



Oh, and another thing. Ahmedinajad is not Hitler. Chavez is not Hitler. Saddam was not Hitler. Osama bin Laden is not Hitler. Neither is Bush. There is no-one alive on Earth who even comes close to Hitler.

Can we please stop comparing every badguy to Hitler? Can we just let Hitler die already?

Especially since anyone who truly understands history knows that Stalin was worse, and yet he was our ally.

My $ 0.02.




.

[kah]

Mao Zedong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong)was no peach, either.

[Space Tycoon]

Oh wait, it may have been Jon Stewart, rather than Maher. I forget.

It was Stewart. I remember that episode, they were showing a bunch of clips of commentators using Hitler as a rhetorical to further their arguments.

I find these comparisons a little tiresome, as I hope I've made clear.

Intellectually lazy.

:rolleyes:





.

[Space Tycoon]

Mao Zedong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong)was no peach, either.

Maoism was a plague. The thought of that ideology gaining ground in Asia again, or Africa or South America concerns me more than Islamism.



.

[Lavoruis]

Don't suprised one day when waking up the next morning .
there won't be nothing left of Iran, just a giant crater.

[Intelligent_Design]

Don't suprised one day when waking up the next morning .
there won't be nothing left of Iran, just a giant crater.
Why, is a meteor gonna hit Iran sometime?

[Rowanberry]

This story really turns out to have been a fake; see this article (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003007166_irandress20.html), for example.

What worries me quite as much as some countries falling under the rule of bigoted fanatics, is the way rumours like this are immediately taken as truths and raised a fuzz about without checking the facts first. Hate-mongering exists on both sides.

[Space Tycoon]

Rest assured, people will believe this for years. This is a meme which has been disseminated by those with a definite loathing for Islam, and a desire to see it emasculated or destroyed.

Expect more such disinformation in the future.





.

[DarkJedi]

Okay well, Im reading this thread now. I didn't get any report violation on it so I never saw it till just now.

1.

There's no problem brother Bok, other than you've been hammering Kirk unecessarily. It's a little blatant. Give it a rest.

You're supposedly a moderator. Act like one.

You worry about yourself, Kaeos.

It is my job to worry about the moderators.. They wouldn't be moderators if I didn't trust them to do their tasks. Cowboy is one of my most trusted and one of the best I've seen.


2.

Asonokirk, you have always been a philospher on these boards as well as the old ones. Why now, are you declaring war on an entire religion in front of our very eyes. That is not the approach of an idealist, something I had you pegged as. I think ID came up with the best responder to you. It's the people who twist the religion to support their own singlary goals that should be getting the finger pointing, not the religion as a whole.

Like Cowboy says above, Im not going to be very moveable on the subject of racism on these boards. If it looks like a racist and smells like a racist, its gonna be banned like a racist.


Thread locked. If another thread begins, keep any and ALL signs of racism tones out of it.

Do I make myself clear? I hope so.