UIR: Chinese Zodiac

[chatback]

This discussion is for comments about the fan art UIR: Chinese Zodiac (http://www.comics2film.com/index.php?a=gallery_item&l=22880).

[Verymeanguy]

I know it may not seem this way, but I attempting to be constructive. First, I'm not an artist, I cannot draw, and I don't submit any artwork on this website. The reason I don't is because I have come to grips with my limitations. I have accepted that, and moved on. You on the other hand need to give up. I have reviewed your work, and it probably looks cute on the refrigerator. We all have to share the internet, and I don't need you inspiring whatever future children I may have to live a life of wasted pursuit. The Chinese Zodiac is not interesting. She has deformed breasts, face, body, and her right arm looks like she suffered a stroke recently. It almost looks like you modeled her off of Cher. The completely red background just makes me angry. It is evident that you have chosen quantity over quality based on the swarm of horrible art work uploaded. You sir are the Wal-Mart of armature comic art.

[Verymeanguy]

And if you look in my profile spelling is a weakness

*amateur

[darth_paul]

For you information, I used a light table to get the form directly from a reference image from an art book, and I am also reporting you to a moderator for these inappropriate comments you've posted to my artwork. This site is for everyone of all skill levels and my work has improved, others on this site and many other sites that I post to have seen thst. You sir, are the one who needs to give up.

[Verymeanguy]

Ok dude, well it looks like you referenced John Elway for her mouth. I didn't realize they had a book for people who want to trace with their feet while having the lights off. Was the book authored by a class of 3rd grade children? Well next time your at the library looking for art books, why don't you pick one up that accurately depicts the anatomy of a woman. Look at your self in the mirror and attempt to say, "Chinese zodiak does not look like a tragically disfigured stroke victim ."

Secondly, of course people are going to complement your work. It's like when a wife asks if her butt looks big in her pants. There is the truth, and their is the truth from people who are just being nice. Nice is accurate.

Lastly, report me to the moderators. Yeah I may be disrespectful, but I'm just being honest. Where there is art, there will be critics. Don't post your garbage on a public site if you cannot handle peoples comments.

[darth_paul]

I can handle people's comments as long as they are within the rules of the site and you have clearly violated those rules with your harsh and cruel comments to my work. I suggest you read the forum rules the next time you decide to open your mouth. If you can't be constructive and say anything nice don't say anything at all. That's what everyone else does.

[SpoonyLUV]

I come on here every now and then and I have never really taken a look at the art here. I decided to look today... and look what I came across. Jachwi....It sickens me that you would pick on what is obviously a little kid pretending to be older to make him seem cooler. Take a look at all of his "work" and ask yourself...could a grown man really be this oblivious to the fact he draws like a ten year old. I say no. So darth_paul you keep trying lil buddy. Keep those crayon's sharp and lay off the paste.....oh and incase you are an adult.........good grief man.....do you put your drawings out in the rain so the ink can run before posting them here?

[darth_paul]

For your information, I am an adult and I am a very busy adult with a wife and two young childre at that so I don't have a lot of time to practice, but every opportunity that I do get I use what help that I've gotten from other artists on various sites to improve my work. I realise that my figure drawings are not great, I know what my shortcomings are and what I need to do to improve, that is why I continue to post my work here and elsewhere and do not "just give up". If you think that I draw like a little kid, well then I guess that I do, I like drawing in a cartoony style, what's wrong with that? No one is beyond improvement, not even me. If you don't like my work then just don't look at it, nobody is pointing a gun to your head and forcing you to view it. I do have a few fans who like what I do. If my figure drawing is bad they don't sugar coat it, but they tell me to work on the face or the hands or whatever in a sincerely constructive way, and that's what I work on for the next drawing. Drawing is what I love to do more than anything and I take it very seriously and I would appreciate some respect around here, I've gotten it on other sites, and there are those here who encourage me as well. Those who do respect my efforts, look at the coloring that I use or the details that I put into my drawings, or the creativity in the character concepts that I come up with. However, as I said before your opinion is your opinion and if you don't like my work that's fine, but you don't have to be disrepectful about it.

[MysticMorgan]

I have known darth_paul for for a couple of years now, and I know that he has improved on his drawings. There is a tight knit group at our site Graphicmouse.com and we respect each and every artist no matter his skill level. The difference between the commits made above and what is said on our site are as different as black and white. We do tell darth what he should improve on and encourage him to continue. But as an artist, one with a degree, and one that actually makes money doing it, I will inform you that not all art is perfect. A Rembrandt is not a Picasso. Style, method and medium are the tools of the artist. His art may not be to your liking but he is trying which is great. Over time he will improve and in some ways this is good because we can watch an artist grow and yet in a way sad because it is him, his style. But in reality, even now he could be classified as either a Folk Artist or a Primitive Artist and both of those can cost a large some of money if purchased.

But as I read the commits above I wonder who really is the one that is being childish, darth and his drawings and great ideas which we like and he knows they are not the best by any means, but at least he tries or some kid that would rather say "She has deformed breasts, face, body, and her right arm looks like she suffered a stroke recently." instead saying "You need to work on your proportions like her breast face and body and study how the body moves because there is something unusual about her right arm". There is a right way of doing things and a wrong way of doing things and what both critics said falls in the wrong way category.

I am 60 years old and over that time I have seen how, with each generation, the ability to be respectful and to not be harsh has deteriorated. I just hope the little ones growing up today will be like darth, always trying to achieve their goals instead someone that is a quitter, and maybe understands that criticisms should be constructive not destructive.

[starchild]

I wholeheartedly agree with Morgan. Not because I too am a member of Graphic Mouse and a good friend to Darth Paul but because there is a proper way to do everything especially when it comes to doing critiques. Art is in the eye of the beholder and what may seem like fine art to one man may seem like garbage to another. Some of the greatest paintings in history look like crap to me but it really doesn't matter what I say about them because the artist is long dead and there's no way I can hurt his feelings or 'belittle' him by bashing his art style. Darth Paul knows his limitations and he accepts them, he's not posting for the sake of getting a contract with a major comic company, he's not posting to canvas possible commision work...he posts simply because he has a vivid imagination, a love for comics and a true desire to draw. I noticed that Jachwi said...quote: "First, I'm not an artist, I cannot draw, and I don't submit any artwork on this website. The reason I don't is because I have come to grips with my limitations. I have accepted that, and moved on", which is fine and that is his perogative, but does that make you qualified to openly criticize someone who like you has accepted his limitations but rather than quit trying he still tries? I post here on a regular basis and mostly all my pieces make the front page yet I never receive any comments be they positive or negative, it doesn't bother me. I don't post because I'm seeking praise but because every artist is imcomplete unless someone actually sees his art. That's all Darth Paul wants to do...be complete. So if you if nothing positive or constructive to say then why bother to say anything.

[B]

Typical, I'm away from the net for a few days and this happens...

I don't know if Paul did report this to a moderator. I haven't heard anything about it, but maybe one of my colleagues handled this privately. If not, then speaking as one of C2F's administrators, Jachwi, SpoonyLUV, you're out of line here and in the UIR for Paul's latest image (Valentine). Your opinions are your own and you are entitled to them, but I'd kindly ask you to be polite in expressing them. C2F does not accept abusive attacks on our artists. Either be constructive or at least polite in your comments, or kindly shut up. No one is forcing you to look at Paul's work, or at anything else here you dislike. If you don't like something, just ignore it. It's easier for everyone that way.

Speaking as an artist (and one who has had no contact to date with Paul), I agree completely with Morgan and Starchild. Paul is clearly aware of his weaknesses, and I certainly think he's sincere in trying to improve. And he has, as a quick glance through his galleries makes clear. I respect that, and I respect his creativeness and his love of the medium. He's not the most technically adept artist in the world, sure, but he IS trying, and all power to him.

[Verymeanguy]

Listen,
I understand what you others are saying, but I disagree. Feedback needs to be balanced with positive and negative information. You guys may see that he needs to fix the proportion of the arm, I say that the arm looks like a stroke victim. I use these terms whether they may be interpreted as offensive because I see it as a stroke victim. This is my first impression, and I will continue to voice it. Do not try to tell me there is not a place for negative feedback or destructive comments.

If I show up continuously late for work, my supervisor isn't going to tell me to work on my alarm clock skills. He will threaten to fire me if I don't fix the problem. I'll be willing to bet that Darth Paul will try to improve at an increased rate because of my comments. He may not admit it, but people will naturally move toward impressing others. I guarantee he has thought about my comments during his drawing and will attempt to work on the areas I have destroyed.

Yes I am qualified to criticize. Who critiques movies? Not directors, actors, or producers. Who critiques sports? The 30,000 fans in the stadium yelling for their defense to step up are the true critics. If I go to an art gallery to admire art, my opinions about art are critiques. Remember that this is being posted on the World Wide Web, not the Nice Artists That Coddle the Hideous.

My comments are not abusive, harassing, or inappropriate. These are my opinions and interpretations.

[SpoonyLUV]

I went to art school but do not have a degree yet. I know the difference between different styles and not being able to draw. "A Rembrandt is not a Picasso. Style, method and medium are the tools of the artist." So this means I can go bang on a piano and call myself a musician just because I'm trying. That's insane. You can try as much as you want but if it's not in you to be an artist I feel it's up to others to point that out. A young child who loves to draw but is having issues is one thing. By all means, help him/her out and try and improve their skill, but he is 30! If you can't do something half way decent by the time 30 has come around, it's time to hang up your pencil. Tell me some more about his so called style. Is it a personal style to make lumpy legs? NO! It's a lack of a basic understanding of the human form. Different styles are choosing between pointillism and cross hatching. The only reason I speak up is because he calls himself a graphic designer and he claims he doesn't want to be a professional at it but in his personal description he states he has his own web site and posts his work to get exposure. Why want exposure just for kicks? Is he alone? No. I hate so called modern artists who leave a canvas blank and call that art as well. If you have no talent.........you have no talent....that's it. "But in reality, even now he could be classified as either a Folk Artist or a Primitive Artist and both of those can cost a large some of money if purchased." What reality do you live in? I would not pick another pencil or paintbrush again if somebody paid actual money for his work...other than his grandma. Please stop coddling an overgrown child. Please take a look at his pictures. It is hard enough for comic art to be taken seriously as actual art without somebody like this proving otherwise.

If you don't like my comments..Boot me...ban me...it's just a web site....but you all know I?m right...I just had the spine to say something about it.

[Verymeanguy]

You reminded me of something Spoony. It almost looks like you plagiarized some art work left in some cave a few hundred years ago.

Bottom-line, earlier I said it looks like quantity was selected over quality. You've posted 2 pictures in a week, when you should have been working on the first one still.

Also, if I get banned I won't lose any sleep. But, you need to do some soul-searching and find a backbone and a better art for beginners book. Nothing in these comments was vulgar, nor did they attack your family, or you. Just your ability as an artist, or lack there of. Are we really still tattle tailing at 30? So get off my entitlement to free speech.

[MysticMorgan]

Hey B, long time no see, glad you came by. As far as the comments above --- They helped me prove my point ---

[starchild]

I agree Morgan....now where's that ignore button?

[Le Pijon]

Yawn, oh, sorry nodding off there from all the insult hurling. Great job, Verymeanguy and Spoony... I could never have demonstrated your lack of understanding of art, boorish writing and utter lack of critical faculty as well as you have yourselves. Truly a pity you're both too dim to see it but, hey fellas, fly that offensive idjit flag proudly! You did express that quite well anyway. Hopefully, I won't see you again.
BTW, Good job, Paul... think I mentioned how much I liked this on another site. Another great concept and your art continues to improve.

[B]

Nice attempts at justification, but I think you're missing the point. This isn't about techniques of criticism or about the nature of art. It's about you being sarcastic, insulting, disrespectful and, yes, abusive towards a longtime member in good standing of C2F.

You have exactly as much of an entitlement to free speech as we allow you, people. This isn't a democracy. If posters could say absolutely anything they wanted on message boards, there wouldn't be rules or moderators. We have both, and you two are breaking the rules and annoying the mods. You have the right to hold whatever opinions you want, within reason, and you can freely express them, provided you do so in a polite and respectful manner. You do NOT have the right to be rude towards other members of the site.

You've both only just joined the site, and have contributed absolutely nothing to it other than these attacks on Darth Paul. There's not so much as one other post by either of you, as if you signed up for the sole purpose of insulting the guy. Some of what you say here might potentially lead to some interesting discussion, but only if carried out in a civilized manner -- something you're obviously unwilling to do.

You have two strikes, fellas. One more and you're out.

[SpoonyLUV]

Hmm...I remember a certain Kevin Smith getting flamed on here for his take on the Green Hornet....and yes I saw there was an apology AFTER it was brought to Mr. Smith's attention. So apparently it is the opinion of C2F that you can burn somebody as long as they are famous? I've been a fan of this site for a while now...some of the best comic movie news comes from this site.... I never singed up for anything until I looked at more of the same horrid art work coming from somebody claiming they are a graphic artist. I had enough of somebody lying to the public stating they are one thing when it's obvious that they do not have the skill nor the talent. From now on I will tell everybody that I am not only an artist but a gymnast, high dolor lawyer, astronaut, architect, and came up with the idea of the internet....i mean...i said it online...so it must be true....so please don't claim that I'm lying or else i might have to tell my buddies to thrash you. HA I also think it's funny that as soon as Mr. Smith (who didn't deserve your flaming) mentions the harsh words you said about his work; you quickly fold and say you're sorry. I on the other hand have a certain thing called a spine. I refuse to back down because I know for a fact that I'm right. You know that I'm right....you just prefer to be NICE over truthful...which is worse in my opinion. My posts, while they have been destructive, they are the truth. There is no being nice when it comes to a 30 year-old with Petter Pan syndrome. Everybody apparently in his life has patted him on the head and told him...good boy and then turned from him and cringed so he couldn't see their disgust at what he calls art. NONE of your responses to my posts hold any weight at all. It's nonsense, to claim I have no understanding of art is ridiculous, when it is his art and your comments that are a slap in the face of everybody with true talent and every day try to make a career out of something they love. To respond to another post, no I didn't cry in art school. My anatomy is quite good and i was always praised for my work in that area. My foreshortening however, was a different story. The instructor was hard on me and pushed me and now I am a million times better for it. So no I didn't cry...i did get discouraged a couple of times but I know people who dropped out and moved on because of the comments to their art. NOT everybody is an artist. If you hold pencil to paper it doesn't make you an artist. And at the age of 30 and you are still drawing like a ten year old...well....it's time to realize that it's not meant for you. If you want to still do it cause you love it...well...go for it. If you want to post your work and tell everybody that you're not that great but you still love to draw...well go for it. I will shut up and leave you alone. Just do not claim to be a graphic artist....or a professional at it. If you take a look around the gallery...you'll see that not everybody's art is that great...but they also don't claim to be something they are not. I have shown his pictures to people around in my office, at my home and I don't tell anybody anything before seeing them. I just said...hey! take a look at this! the response is the same....their nose crinkles up...and then they ask what's wrong with those pictures. and why the characters are deformed. EVERYTIME....I have not come across anybody who took a look at them and said...well...he just needs to work at it. Take a look back at the earlier stuff.....it's the same. I see no improvement. They are all the same...squiggly lines for muscles. The human body has deltoids, biceps, triceps, hamstrings, quadriceps...you know...actual muscles...NOT random lines! Stop living in a dreamland, stop complaining that I'm being mean and nasty. If you have actual proof of that mess called art...please provide it. If you want me to scan and post a couple of anatomy pictures to prove I'm semi talented (i still need work of course) I'll provide it. I kind of hope this is my third strike....you people are nuts. Does everybody here live in a gumdrop fantasy world where everybody is nice and everybody is wonderful. Is barney playing on your TV 24/7? Okay...lets everybody give each other a hug now......

[Le Pijon]

First off, Paul didn't put me up to this, I spoke out clearly out of my own intolerance of loudmouthed jackasses. Well, if you can't understand the difference between the harsh yet fair instructional FACE-TO_FACE criticism of an art instructor and hurling nonconstructive insults under the guise of anonymity then there's not alot of point in me trying to get through to you anyway, is there? That's why I'm not gonna spend much time on you, lightweight. I will break it down for you a little more though... if I'm not mistaken Paul managed to make through art school and obtain a job in the graphic design field... not one of those bitter wanna be losers who never got that far and doesn't have the sack to post their own work... ya feelin me yet, Spooney? You think hurling insults at somebody under a fake name is having spine???!!! Huh?! I would suggest that's actually LACKING in spine and another area lower and more toward the front. There is more than one acceptable way to draw, just as there is more than one way to write or play music but I guess you never got beyond the rudimentaries. Have you ever seen the art of Mark Beyer? He is considered a genius in some circles. Stop pretending you know something about art. I'll tell you what's a slap in the face to artists: a nitwit like you proclaiming to speak on their behalf. I think if you take a look at my work, or B's or Starchild's or Morgan's... you may find we have an inkling of what we're talking about. Of course I'm wondering why now that you're a million times better an artist we haven't seen anything from you?... oh right, the missing parts.

[darth_paul]

Thanks everyone, especially you LP! Sorry to be such a stranger B. I couldn't have said it better myself. You're right, there's no sense in me or any of the rest of us trying to get through to these morons. They obviously know nothing and don't even know that being a Graphic Designer has nothing to do with actually drawing anything. I didn't say that I was a professional illustrator, I said Graphic Designer which is something else entirely. I put images and text together to design and layout print ads and newspapers. I get daily praise from my co-workers on how adept I am at my job. My expertise is in design, and I think that my artwork shows that in the compositions that I put together to present them as far as the coloring, backgrounds and logos that I create for my characters. As far as my drawing goes, these guys are hung up on the fact that I use ?sqiggly lines? to portray muscles. Well, as the others have said THERE IS NO ONE SET WAY TO DRAW! Most of the how-to-draw books that I own show that the muscles are pretty much simplified ?sqiggly lines?, don?t really see how I?m doing that wrong, but then again I admit that I need improvement and I learn something new everyday, and I won?t ever give up, why should I? Just because you did? Well, I?m not a loser like you. I did have an instructor tell me once that I wasn?t going to make it, but you know what I did anyway and I am a GRAPHIC DESINGER. I don?t post my graphic design work here because it?s all just newspaper advertising and newspaper layout and has no purpose here on a fan art site devoted to comic art, comic art that comes in a variety of styles. This is not a site for professionals, some people here may just be professionals, but the majority of us are indeed amateurs who do this because we enjoy it no matter how good we are at it. A few things I will give you is that, yes when I first started posting I did chose quantity over quality, but that was just because it was the first time in my life that I was ever able to share my work with a large audience and I was a bit over zealous, and that is mostly what you see in my portfolio here. This site doesn?t do regular cleanings like some do, it?s up to us individual artists to do so and perhaps I should clean out some of the old stuff, but that?s my prerogative and if I don?t want to I won?t. B, noted that by looking at my older work he sees progress, and others have backed him up. There might not be much difference in my simple way of drawing muscles that you?re so hung up on, but there?s improvement in the compositions of the characters, how they are posed, how they are colored, just a few minor things that I?ve worked on. Also every drawing I do is an experiment to push myself that much further than what I did previously. In this drawing it was the pose, which I admit that I didn?t do as well as I would have hoped, but before posting it, I thought that I did a halfway decent job, that?s why I post to get evaluations that I can?t see myself. That?s what any mature artist does. When I was younger I didn?t share my work much, I didn?t ask my art teachers to look at my comic art, it wasn?t relevant to the class curriculum. I was shy and introverted, and in some ways I still am, and I just drew for myself and nobody else. I published some cartoons in the school papers and that?s about it, and everyone loved them despite my artistic flaws. No one complained so how was I supposed to know I was doing things wrong? If they did say something, I just figured that I had this cartoon style that wasn?t supposed to be anatomically correct and that was what I told people and never tried to correct that. I didn?t ever bother to try and draw anything but frontal images of characters and never did any turn-arounds. I thought I was better than that and didn?t need to do it, I wasn?t a serious artist then, but now that I?ve had a chance within the last couple of years to communicate in a variety of online artistic communities, I?ve learned much more in such a short time than I ever did all those years ago, and that is why I am a 30 year-old adult who is playing catch-up to learn that which I probably should have learned years ago. I admit that it?s nobody?s fault but my own, I?m not ashamed of it and I make no excuses or apologies. It is what it is. A lot of the older drawings in my portfolio here are those drawings, they have new copyright info, but they are actually much older drawings. They are the ones colored in marker. I just started coloring with the computer last year, which is something else I?ve striving to improve upon. You don?t know me, you don?t know my history, so don?t attack my character (and I don?t mean my drawing of the Chinese lady above) and call me a liar and say that I?m claiming to be something that I?m not. Stop watching American Idol and pretending to be Simon Cowell, show some respect and listen to your elders like Capt. Morgan kiddies, they know what they?re talking about.

[Roast Mules]

LOL SpoonyLUV and Verymeanguy are funny. But i've found ignorance amusing. They, like many others, have created this box that an artist must fit in or he is , according to them, not allowed to express himself. You see, If your not like Mike Turner or Joe Mad, your not allowed to draw. They're all show and no substance. They don't know of the countless indie books that have disappeared from store shelves, been mentioned in WIZARD, and built fortunes even though i myself have thought "Holy Crap! This guy can't draw for squat." Was it Jim Shooter who got his career started as a child by sending in stick figures to DC comics depicting LoSH stories? STICK FIGURES! FRIGGIN' STICK FIGURES! On Comicspace one of the best zombie stories i've ever read was a silent story also done in stick figures. Its called "They won't stay dead". Look it up. Its fantastic and was probrably drawn during a commercial break while on the can. You two are so mainstream brainwashed that you won't accept anything that hasen't been through photoshop, and thats just sad because it doesn't take a genius to recognize that the indie scene is the way of the future, especially if the Big Two don't shape up. Plus...........you two aren't even artist!


I like what Ben Avery said on the Matter. Read it here, or don't. Personally, you don't strike me as the types to seek personal enlightenment.
http://myth-understanding.blogspot.com/2007/12/how-to-make-it-in-comics-from-someone.html




"Jesus Loves you, Baby."

[Roast Mules]

"Do not try to tell me there is not a place for negative feedback or destructive comments."


theres not a place for negative feedback or destructive comments.

[Roast Mules]

I'll be willing to bet that Darth Paul will try to improve at an increased rate because of my comments. He may not admit it, but people will naturally move toward impressing others. I guarantee he has thought about my comments during his drawing and will attempt to work on the areas I have destroyed.

OMG Thats the stupidest thing i ever heard. "We should all just me jerks cuz it'll help us to be better people." Do you really believe that?

[Roast Mules]

"So get off my entitlement to free speech."


LOL

[Roast Mules]

"You have exactly as much of an entitlement to free speech as we allow you, people. This isn't a democracy. If posters could say absolutely anything they wanted on message boards, there wouldn't be rules or moderators. We have both, and you two are breaking the rules and annoying the mods. You have the right to hold whatever opinions you want, within reason, and you can freely express them, provided you do so in a polite and respectful manner. You do NOT have the right to be rude towards other members of the site."

Amen and AMEN

[Roast Mules]

"you just prefer to be NICE over truthful"

Duh Jackass. Its called being Civilized.

[Roast Mules]

"First off, Paul didn't put me up to this, I spoke out clearly out of my own intolerance of loudmouthed jackasses. Well, if you can't understand the difference between the harsh yet fair instructional FACE-TO_FACE criticism of an art instructor and hurling nonconstructive insults under the guise of anonymity then there's not alot of point in me trying to get through to you anyway, is there? That's why I'm not gonna spend much time on you, lightweight. I will break it down for you a little more though... if I'm not mistaken Paul managed to make through art school and obtain a job in the graphic design field... not one of those bitter wanna be losers who never got that far and doesn't have the sack to post their own work... ya feelin me yet, Spooney? You think hurling insults at somebody under a fake name is having spine???!!! Huh?! I would suggest that's actually LACKING in spine and another area lower and more toward the front. There is more than one acceptable way to draw, just as there is more than one way to write or play music but I guess you never got beyond the rudimentaries. Have you ever seen the art of Mark Beyer? He is considered a genius in some circles. Stop pretending you know something about art. I'll tell you what's a slap in the face to artists: a nitwit like you proclaiming to speak on their behalf. I think if you take a look at my work, or B's or Starchild's or Morgan's... you may find we have an inkling of what we're talking about. Of course I'm wondering why now that you're a million times better an artist we haven't seen anything from you?... oh right, the missing parts."

LOL YES! THANK YOU!

[Roast Mules]

"Stop watching American Idol and pretending to be Simon Cowell, show some respect and listen to your elders like Capt. Morgan kiddies, they know what they?re talking about."

LOL EXACTLY!

[Verymeanguy]

This was done earlier this week roast beef

[Roast Mules]

Well Obviously it hasn't been long enough. And i think your worse at spelling than what you thought. Maybe you should take your own advice and quit posting and writing altogether.

[Roast Mules]

"This was done earlier this week roast beef"

Then why were you even here?

[B]

*sigh* Can we please stop this now, children? It's done. The mods' position on these comments has, I like to think, been made clear. Spoony's gone. "Verymeanguy" has apparently decided to keep quiet, so for now, he's in the clear. If he steps out of line even once, then believe me, he's gone too. On the other hand, if he's willing to be civilized in the future and to contribute something worthwhile to the site, be it art, (polite) critiques, or debate, then I'm quite willing to let him do so. In the meantime, I'm locking this thread.

Oh, and Roast Mules... I'd be grateful if you could avoid making multiple posts when you could say everything you want quite well in just one. Thanks!