Mathilde de Toscane

[RogerXXII]

Based upon information and belief, it appears that Kathleen McGowan's next victim is to be Matilda of Tuscany. This rabid papist (she was actually barking mad, on the topic) is to somehow become the secret Grand Mistress of some obscure Magdalenian cult, as well as intricately tied to the foundation of the Orval Abbey.

As if this weren't enough of a sickening prospect, the "Expectorant One" has revealed she will have yet another victim, after skewering poor Matilda (I never thought I'd ever actually feel sympathy for Matilda, but there are some things that no one deserves), our intrepid authoress will explain to us how Lorenzo di Medici was merely dissembling when he pretended to spend all of his time in political scheming and elaborating strategies to solidify his power base. All the while, he was secretly running a secret initiation school for artists, no doubt also focused on Magdalenian worship.

Be prepared. I've already contacted the airline suppliers and should be taking delivery of three gross of airsick-bags, which I shall be glad to let the members of this forum have for a mere 10 cents, US, per bag. Discounts on purchases by the dozen.

[StellaMaris]

Ah, welcome to 23.5 Degrees, Roger XXII - you have demonstrated that you are truly A Canted One!

I would suggest that you click to page 2 of our discussion threads and read the exchanges on The Expectorant (if you can force yourself through it).

Once you are fully briefed, I'll tell you a very interesting story...
:wink:

[RogerXXII]

Ah, welcome to 23.5 Degrees, Roger XXII - you have demonstrated that you are truly A Canted One!

I would suggest that you click to page 2 of our discussion threads and read the exchanges on The Expectorant (if you can force yourself through it).

Once you are fully briefed, I'll tell you a very interesting story...
:wink:

Well I'm not sure whether or not I'm fully briefed, because I faded a bit by page 19... But I was chuffed to find out that my "Nemesis", in Another Place, is one Eric Michael Tull. Now I have to find out why the scion of a farm implement-inventing clan would be such a rabid Benedictophobe...

There are many games afoot, methinks, in RLC-land, and at the moment I'm only beginning to grasp some of the more nauseating threads.

But I've got the industrial supply of barf-bags, so I'm up for an "interesting story"...:ohwell:

[StellaMaris]

Well, you did better than me - I tried to re-read it all, but I only got as far as page 5. Sorry to torture you like that, but your second paragraph indicates that you are grasping the underlying problem now.

In fact, this underlying problem has led to a series of security and legal issues that has caused a small group to work underground for over twelve years. It's this group that I call the Ordre du Hareng Rouge in my FICTION stories. There are about 12 of us, each with a different area of expertise... we work together in trust because there is now so much information that one brain can't possibly hold it.

Inevitably, some of our confidential research has leaked and appeared in various places, albeit sometimes in an extremely distorted manner. Whenever we've tried to correct the distortions, this has led to even more security and legal problems.

Now, after 8 years of mind-boggling mayhem that would probably make a colourful book within itself, we believe that all the main obstacles have been resolved and that we can now go forwards. Mania has become our Safe Haven, as the owner here has watched the story unfold and has even tried to help wherever possible.

So, to this end, we want to try to release information or correct distortions wherever possible. We don't want to name names or launch exposés, we simply want to do our own thing without interference.

Coincidentally, a couple of weeks ago, I asked the Herring who had very generously shared his research regarding Matilda and Orval with the group over a decade ago, if he would allow me to release this information into the public now, but there have been technical problems.

That's why it's extremely ironic that you have shown up here at this particular moment...

[Mnemosyne]

our intrepid authoress will explain to us how Lorenzo di Medici was merely dissembling when he pretended to spend all of his time in political scheming and elaborating strategies to solidify his power base. All the while, he was secretly running a secret initiation school for artists, no doubt also focused on Magdalenian worship.

Yes, it's true. Lorenzo's real work in life was to pass on the teachings of love. I come from a long line of Magdalenian priestess and this is what we were taught. I don't have any proof, but what is proof except the winner's version of reality. Our only goal in life is to keep our men happy and wash their feet. We may open a line of mail order Magdalene priestess if you are interested.

:)

[RogerXXII]

Well Stella, I do hope you can enlighten me on something. It is apparently CRUCIAL to certain parties that the original monks at Orval NOT have been Benedictines, despite the fact that they clearly were. Why? I can't seem to muster up enough imagination to come up with a scenario that absolutely requires they be something else. Of course, they could be trying to revive the old Plantard chestnut about the "mysterious Calabrese monks led by an equally mysterious Ormus", but surely no one is that stupid, in the face of all the evidence and formidable research into Orval?

A mutual friend (of yours and mine) seems to think that Mr. Tull is in the employ of the McGowan creature, as a "researcher". This strikes me as odd, since she has never had a "researcher" in anything she's ever done, although - if Mr. Tull is the appointed one - she's maintained her consistency in this regard.

Perhaps it's merely an attempt to discredit/deny the excellent and intensive research of the last 40 years on the origins of Orval? I suppose it would be a logical tactic, if one were going to assert that Mathilde de Toscane was at all involved in its foundation, which we now know to be quite untrue.

The gyrations of imbeciles never cease to fascinate me. I must have a very unhealthy mind.

[Leavis]

Yes, it's true. Lorenzo's real work in life was to pass on the teachings of love. I come from a long line of Magdalenian priestess and this is what we were taught. I don't have any proof, but what is proof except the winner's version of reality. Our only goal in life is to keep our men happy and wash their feet. We may open a line of mail order Magdalene priestess if you are interested.

:)

I share Lorenzo's belief in the all-pervading power of love and I physically detest anyone who doesn't believe in love. How does one order a Magdalene priestess? Are there any ginger models available? Say 4 foot ten inches. Must be from a good family with a wild imagination.

[Mnemosyne]

Yes, it's true. Lorenzo's real work in life was to pass on the teachings of love. I come from a long line of Magdalenian priestess and this is what we were taught.

One last comment must be added to protect the sacred image of our benefactor, il Magnifico. That great granddaughter, who shall not be named was a rogue priestess...a Magdalenian priestess gone wild. You see, her DNA or whatever did not process correctly, so the genetic memories were all tossed up creating a woman who gave new meaning to the phrase: hell hath no fury like a woman scorned.

[Mnemosyne]

I share Lorenzo's belief in the all-pervading power of love and I physically detest anyone who doesn't believe in love. How does one order a Magdalene priestess? Are there any ginger models available? Say 4 foot ten inches. Must be from a good family with a wild imagination.

Currently, we're offer models with pumpkin kissed hair (rather than sun kissed), clothed in Magdalene Era kaftans. Before performing the sacred art of Hieros Gamos, your priestess (soon to be your bride because everything comes with a price and you have the wallet) and her sisters will flitter around the room on stick horses singing kumbaya.

Interested? We accept any modest proposal.

[RogerXXII]

Currently, we're offer models with pumpkin kissed hair (rather than sun kissed), clothed in Magdalene Era kaftans. Before performing the sacred art of Hieros Gamos, your priestess (soon to be your bride because everything comes with a price and you have the wallet) and her sisters will flitter around the room on stick horses singing kumbaya.

Interested? We accept any modest proposal.

I think the use of flowing caftans is an error. While I can see how this sets a pleasing "period atmosphere", it also defeats the purpose of cavorting on hobby horses, as all the accompanying jiggling and bobbling would be obscured from the wallet-carrying victim.

I would suggest the Priestesses hire a consultant on such matters. I can recommend a Mr. Hefner, resident of Hollywood, Left Coast, who despite being in his dotage, retains full possession of all the necessary mental cliches.

[Leavis]

Currently, we're offer models with pumpkin kissed hair (rather than sun kissed), clothed in Magdalene Era kaftans. Before performing the sacred art of Hieros Gamos, your priestess (soon to be your bride because everything comes with a price and you have the wallet) and her sisters will flitter around the room on stick horses singing kumbaya.

Interested? We accept any modest proposal.

I am booked for some minor cosmetic surgery in the next few days (well, actually it's a pretty major lobotomy), so your proposal sounds very appealing to me. I'm looking for some light, but entrancing reading matter while I'm in the clinic. Can you think of anything that would prepare me for my forthcoming adventure/ritual? Also, following my lobotomy, I'm looking to join a group of like-minded people. Is there something you can think of that could accommodate me and my future bride? I'm sure we could do without becaftaned nymphets and stick horses.

[StellaMaris]

Well Stella, I do hope you can enlighten me on something. It is apparently CRUCIAL to certain parties that the original monks at Orval NOT have been Benedictines, despite the fact that they clearly were. Why? I can't seem to muster up enough imagination to come up with a scenario that absolutely requires they be something else. Of course, they could be trying to revive the old Plantard chestnut about the "mysterious Calabrese monks led by an equally mysterious Ormus", but surely no one is that stupid, in the face of all the evidence and formidable research into Orval?

Hi Roger, I have to admit that I'm not paying much attention to the discussions in Other Places, but you've now intrigued me.

We worked through this material so long ago that I've forgotten most of the plot now. Besides I tend to get bored once we've worked out where all the fictitious splices are...

I guess people find it convenient to wipe out the Benedictine foundation of Orval because they weren't there for that long?

I seem to remember Gardner was into the Calabrian monk lineage thing, as well... I may be wrong here, but I think it was claimed that the Order of Sion was based in Calabria before it ended up in Orleans, where it became the Priory of Sion? Will have to find my notes...

BTW, Gardner claimed that Godefroi de Boullion not only founded the Order of Sion, but also the Guardians of the Sacred Sepulchre, in case that name sounds vaguely familiar to some people. There was also an Order of the Sangreal for good measure. All this in addition to the Knights Templar, of course.

I'm guessing that Orval itself is only worked into the story because of the alleged Nostradamus connection, who himself is connected to Catherine de Medici, which leads us to Florence and all the hermetic stuff, and back to Matilda via Lucca, which is also in Tuscany?

When one is 'reimagining' history, one can make all kinds of connections...

Lessee... from memory, one version has it that an Orval monk gave Nostra the prophesies during a secret visit there which Nostra plagiarised. Some say that these prophesies were secreted at Orval by the Knights Templar... but I guess that we're about to find out that the prophesies were really written by Matilda whose husband Gottfried was really Godfroi de Boullion, under the auspices of the Order of the Holy Sepulchre, or whatever they're calling it now?

Being a Herring, I like the Orval fish story though... did you know that Westminster Abbey was also founded on a story of a mystical fish?

But everyone knows that the most important aspect of Orval is the beer. Afterall, Beer is Art. I haven't tried their cheese yet, though.

Apologies, it will probably take a while to get used to 23.5 humour. We have a very strict editorial policy not to bash or attack here, so we tend to express ourselves through silly jokes which we attempt to pass off as satire - you can see Mnem and Leavis warming up for The Book of Lard in the background.

If you want to have a serious discussion about this, I'll try to find all my old notes. I can do Chartres off the top of my head, though, having spent quite a bit of time there trying to decide whether to move my Paris office there. We ended up near La Defense instead, which is also a very interesting place...

[RogerXXII]

There's one fundamental problem with this scenario.

Mathilda of Tuscany, despite the lovely and completely apocryphal fish & ring legend, had absolutely nothing to do with the founding of the Abbaye d'Orval.

She was quite a piece of work in her own right, and I can't see why adding Orval to her resume would make it any better.

I never heard of a secret visit by Michel de Nostredame to Orval, but there really is an apparently Flemish version of the Centuries that pre-dates Nostradamus. My own explanation would be that Nostradamus used that earlier version, in slightly modified form, in order to drive Catherine mad, which he succeeded in doing rather fully and efficiently, even though it was a rather short drive.

I do hope that, in a better place, Nostradamus let Montgomery in on the joke, and that they're still having a good laugh over Catherine, as well as over all the people who think he was "divining the future".

[wertham]

This rabid papist (she was actually barking mad, on the topic) is to somehow become the secret Grand Mistress of some obscure Magdalenian cult, as well as intricately tied to the foundation of the Orval Abbey.

They supposedly make really good beer there.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3378/3341374801_35c43679fe_o.jpg

[StellaMaris]

I've had the Orval beer, it's lovely. It's obviously made to a secret hermetic recipe passed down by the Magdalene priestesses throughout the centuries. I was going to tell you what its secret ingredient was, but I got a grip because I'm trying to be polite in front of Roger, as he's new.

BTW, when Professor W went to Cologne last week on his pilgrimage to Saint Ursula's resting place (which we'll be writing about), he discovered that Sion beer is brewed in Cologne! He tried to bring me a bottle back but they don't allow fluids on airplanes...

So... Roger, can you please explain how it got proven that Matilda didn't have anything to do with the founding of Orval and therefore how she got associated with the trout and the ring legend to begin with?

And I love your theory that Nostra used the pilfered prophesies as a performance art piece to drive Catherine mad. That totally works for me.

I can't bear Catherine, especially after what she did to Mary Stuart...

Beer is Art!

[StellaMaris]

I never heard of a secret visit by Michel de Nostredame to Orval

I forgot to mention... I seem to remember that Nostradamus' secret visit to Orval was "leaked" to de Sede at one point. Don't know if this is actually true or not, though.

Wert might know where it originally came from?

[wertham]

I forgot to mention... I seem to remember that Nostradamus' secret visit to Orval was "leaked" to de Sede at one point. Don't know if this is actually true or not, though.

Wert might know where it originally came from?

By way of explanation, I put this little movie together for you...

Everything you need to know about Nostradamus in 4 minutes (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxPn4KprgJw)

(with some help from your favourite band, Judas Priest. Play it backwards and it reveals Bob Dylan's new unlisted phone #)

HINT: Watch for Rutger Hauer as the Mad Monk of Orval (w/ a headful of candles... to make him light-headed, no doubt)

[ProfessorW]

I loved the clip - especially the mediaeval costumes, but it so made me yearn for a film of a truly wonderful, spiritual novel. A novel which describes the purest love of a woman for a man (and, of course, herself!), a woman who wants to bring love to the world. A woman as mysterious as the secrets she uncovers. However, such a role would require the most cerebral, the most beautiful woman and actress - Kathy Bates, Mother Theresa, Roseanne Barr and Angeline Jolie, all rolled into one.
Of course, the soundtrack could not be as rough as Judas Priest. It would need the voice of an artist who understands a woman's soul - perhaps Michael Bolton, with instrumental tracks provided by Richard Clayderman to give a touch of class? I shall keep waiting; one day the greatest movie will be made and love will suffuse the world. The royalties would allow this century's Jane Austen to write more of the need for love. As Hal David once wrote so tenderly, "What the world needs now is love, sweet love". Oh, when will that day come?

[StellaMaris]

Okay, guys, brace yourselves... Amazon delivered The Book of Lard this morning and I may feel the need from time to time to share the experience with you.

I've only gotten as far as the map at the beginning... Roger, Orval is labelled "Abbey built by Matilda of Tuscany to house and protect the secret teachings of the Book of Love" and Calabria is labelled, "The first location of the Order of the Holy Sepulcher, where the tradition descended from Saint Luke began and endured"... so I guess we can see where this is going?

Might have to start a new thread...

[ProfessorW]

Okay, guys, brace yourselves... Amazon delivered The Book of Lard this morning and I may feel the need from time to time to share the experience with you.

I've only gotten as far as the map at the beginning... Roger, Orval is labelled "Abbey built by Matilda of Tuscany to house and protect the secret teachings of the Book of Love" and Calabria is labelled, "The first location of the Order of the Holy Sepulcher, where the tradition descended from Saint Luke began and endured"... so I guess we can see where this is going?

Might have to start a new thread...
Oh, Stella, I'm green with envy! So, the sacred text is now in Europe. It's rather like that moment when St Patrick first arrived on the ferry at Dover all those years ago. Please tell us everything and, PLEASE, share the love with us. Now, more than ever, we need the message of love and a deeper understanding of our true herstory.
You must be beside yourself with joy! I can even feel your joy across the ether. Blessed one!
Peace, love and blessings!
W

[RogerXXII]

Okay, guys, brace yourselves... Amazon delivered The Book of Lard this morning and I may feel the need from time to time to share the experience with you.

I've only gotten as far as the map at the beginning... Roger, Orval is labelled "Abbey built by Matilda of Tuscany to house and protect the secret teachings of the Book of Love" and Calabria is labelled, "The first location of the Order of the Holy Sepulcher, where the tradition descended from Saint Luke began and endured"... so I guess we can see where this is going?

Might have to start a new thread...

Tim suspected this might be the case, when one Mr. Tull went batshit on me "in Another Place", for explaining that the founding monks of Orval were Benedictines from Monte Cassino.

As I pointed out to the miscreants, Orval was a piss-poor choice of an Abbey to fantasize about, because its history has been meticulously reconstructed from a concerted research effort augmented by archeological digs (which yielded additional documents, btw).

Of course, if one hasn't bothered to look into anything since the Plantard imbecilities about Orval disseminated in HGHG, then one mightn't be aware that, since approximately 1960, the Abbey has been the focus of a prodigious effort to ascertain its entire history (including more interesting and more recent bits, such as its adventures during Jansenisme).

In a nutshell: The once was a nobleman, Arnould de Chiny, who discovered that there was an abandoned and ruined consecrated church on HIS lands (not Mathilde's to donate). This was during the Querelle des Investitures, a dicey time to be sure. Arnould de Chiny was on the side of the Pope, as was his liegelord, Godefroi le Barbu (Mathilde's father-in-law, btw). Chiny asked Godefroi to assist him in finding clerics to repopulate and repair the consecrated site, and to do so with papist loyalists. As it happens, Godefroi's brother just happened to be Pope at the time. By another astonishing coincidence, he had just been the Abbot of Monte Cassino. Presto! A bunch of monks from Monte Cassino were dispatched to Orval, where they remained for over 20 years. Notice that Mathilde doesn't appear anywhere in this foundation story. She DID, however, send the monks (Benedictine monks, btw) a bunch of money, after a visit there, her ONLY visit to the area, one might stress... Godefroi le Barbu's brother, the Pope, was murdered in Florence. Godefroi supported the next Pope, but switched sides after reconciling with his cousin, the "Holy Roman Emperor". When he did so, so did his vassals and his entire family, EXCEPT Mathilde. She went on a rampage. In the meantime, the Monte Cassino monks were called back to Italy, and Chiny was reduced to replacing them with some Canons Regular from the nearby Collegial Church of St Augustine, and they remained there until the Cistercian takeover, decades later.

Godefroi le Bossu, Mathilde's long-suffering husband, finally escaped her through what must have been the blissful relief of death. This made Godefroi de Bouillon, his nephew, the heir to the titles and lands. But Godefroi de Bouillon was inextricably loyal to the Emperor, which led that fury, Mathilde, to try to sabotage her own dead husband's charters and titles in order to frustrate and minimise Godefroi de Bouillon's inheritance.

The most prominent lecturer on the Abbey of Orval's history, notes that: "The more one delves into te origins of the Abbey, the more one realises that Mathilde had nothing to do with it, apart from that lovely legend".

Et voila... let the mythmakers weep and gnash their teeth, for they are undone by their lack of diligence in updating themselves on the research developed since 1960.

[RogerXXII]

And I love your theory that Nostra used the pilfered prophesies as a performance art piece to drive Catherine mad. That totally works for me.

I wouldn't quite say a "performance art piece", but it is indeed what happened. Catherine obsessed about it, and completely mismanaged events on the basis of these texts. Mission accomplished.

[Mnemosyne]

Okay, guys, brace yourselves... Amazon delivered The Book of Lard this morning and I may feel the need from time to time to share the experience with you.

You'll have to share as I can't see myself running out to buy the Book of Crap.

[Alphaville]

I share Lorenzo's belief in the all-pervading power of love and I physically detest anyone who doesn't believe in love. How does one order a Magdalene priestess? Are there any ginger models available? Say 4 foot ten inches. Must be from a good family with a wild imagination.

I could name one and then we could all share a laugh when her "attorney" sends his boilerplate threatening e-mail. Though I fear it's been done before...:lol:

[Alphaville]

BTW, Gardner claimed that Godefroi de Boullion not only founded the Order of Sion, but also the Guardians of the Sacred Sepulchre, in case that name sounds vaguely familiar to some people. There was also an Order of the Sangreal for good measure. All this in addition to the Knights Templar, of course.

Gardner took these examples from Ruvigny; the Order of Sion and the Order of the Sangreal were 19th century Jacobite societies. They fit the script when Gardner was promoting the soi-disant "Prince Michael of Albany" as the Grail heir.

I'm guessing that Orval itself is only worked into the story because of the alleged Nostradamus connection, who himself is connected to Catherine de Medici, which leads us to Florence and all the hermetic stuff, and back to Matilda via Lucca, which is also in Tuscany?

Never mind the fact that Catherine left Florence as a child. No one ever thinks to look at the French property she held in her own right.

[Alphaville]

I never heard of a secret visit by Michel de Nostredame to Orval, but there really is an apparently Flemish version of the Centuries that pre-dates Nostradamus. My own explanation would be that Nostradamus used that earlier version, in slightly modified form, in order to drive Catherine mad, which he succeeded in doing rather fully and efficiently, even though it was a rather short drive.

I do hope that, in a better place, Nostradamus let Montgomery in on the joke, and that they're still having a good laugh over Catherine, as well as over all the people who think he was "divining the future".

I believe it was that Belgian fellow who was promoting the Nostradamus at Orval theory - was his name Philippe Demets? And was the professor he was citing named Rudy Cambier? It all seemed a bit too forced, that much I remember.

[Alphaville]

HINT: Watch for Rutger Hauer as the Mad Monk of Orval (w/ a headful of candles... to make him light-headed, no doubt)

Headful of candles...perhaps we should be looking at St. Lucia. No, no - it has to be SISTER Lucia, and we should all be looking at the Third Secret of Fatima. I could just contact Carlos and ask him, he was her spokesman, after all.

[Alphaville]

Okay, guys, brace yourselves... Amazon delivered The Book of Lard this morning and I may feel the need from time to time to share the experience with you.

Send it to Wijnants. He'll post the entire book on his webpage and call it his own work, then we can all read it for free.

[RogerXXII]

I believe it was that Belgian fellow who was promoting the Nostradamus at Orval theory - was his name Philippe Demets? And was the professor he was citing named Rudy Cambier? It all seemed a bit too forced, that much I remember.


I think Demets was promoting the visit to Orval, but that Rudy Cambier actually unearthed the much earlier version of the Centuries (it's actually a fact). He may well, however (Cambier) said that Nostradamus could have learned of it at Orval... I forget, I'm old and there's only so much detail of nonsense I can recall. Catherine's obsession with and manipulation by the Centuries, on the other hand, is well documented.


Kudos to you for having unmasked Ms. McGowan's "researcher". If he charged her anything at all, she'll actually have grounds to sue, for once.

[StellaMaris]

Oh good, Alphaville is back. I'm in back to back meetings for the next two days, so will catch up when I can.

All my notes are in different piles, so I'm having trouble going back that far... I was invited to Cambier's launch a few years ago, but couldn't make it. I think I have the book around here somewhere. But, I'm sure that the Nostra/Orval connection preceeded this.

I did find a ref in Baigent's notes that will make Roger happy, though:-

"Orval founded 1070 by benedictine monks who came up from Calabria. They stayed till 1108 when they disappeared. - From Histoire de l'Abbaye d'Orval, pg 3."

It appears that there was an Adam, Abbe d'Orval until 1280, then he shows up at Sion the next year, so that might be where the Plantard splice occurs?

I'll try to piece it together for posterity but, as Roger eloquently observes, there's only so much nonsense that a brain can retain.

In the meantime, the Book of Lard is simply so awful that I'm not even sure that an analysis will be possible. Even minor details regarding locations, which appear to be thrown in to give the story an air of authenticity, are incorrect.

I see that she's corrected her mistakes on the Saint Sulpice gnomon from the first book, though...

That's the interesting thing about leaking disinformation... it's fun to see where it turns up. That one turned up in the Bloodline movie, as well, so does this mean that I get TWO extra Herring points...?

[RogerXXII]

I don't remember when HBHG was first published, but the definitive history of Orval and its foundation wasn't published and available to the public at large until 1975, I think. So, in that time, it was still pretty easy for people like Plantard to disseminate disinformation to suit their purposes and create "mystery" where there was simply a lack of information.

I don't believe there ever was anything quite as sophisticated as a "splice" anywhere in Plantard's fable. He simply asserted nonsense as fact. This Abbot Adam you mention, must've been a Canon Regular of St Augustine, appointed at Orval, because the Cistercians hadn't yet taken over the Abbey.

The order of succession is as follows:

* Bénédictins, de 1071 à 1110
* Chanoines réguliers de Saint-Augustin, de 1110 à 1132
* Cisterciens, de 1132 à 1796

As I've said before, these mythmakers simply have the most rotten luck in picking an Abbey that has been so thoroughly researched and excavated in very recent times. They couldn't have made a poorer choice about which to concoct lies. But they didn't know that, because they were still frozen in time, with the Plantard myths, and never did an ounce of proper research themselves.

In an interview, the McGowan woman goes on and on about the Lucca crucifix supposedly "carved by the hand of Nicodemus" and having a "small cache for treasure in its back", apparently unaware that she's discussing a much later copy with a reliquary in its back.

The mercantile cynicism of publishers has reached a new high, for even considering publishing such garbage.

[StellaMaris]

HBHG was published in 1982, so this time period would have been bang in the middle of when BLL were doing their background.

The problem is, Roger, that the technique of embroidering actual verifiable facts into a larger fabrication and explaining away the contradictions by claiming to possess "secret" information or documents - which can't be independently examined because it would be far too dangerous - is still being deployed today. It wasn't just a Plantard tactic, it's happening NOW, right under our noses.

This is exactly WHY we were hoping that Baigent & Leigh would win their court case - ironically, it would have clearly delineated between historical fact and historical fiction.

Don't get me wrong... historical fiction is a wonderful genre, I love writing in this style - but, when people start believing that a historical novel contains REAL information that is only presented as fiction in order to protect the "truth", then this starts causing bizarre social problems...

And the publishers - and the broadcasters - are positively encouraging this technique, because they think it will sell. They don't realise that the actual REAL story is far more intriguing than the fake real story.

But, unfortunately Google-history is here to stay. This is why guerrilla groups like The Herrings exist...

[ProfessorW]

The Japanese have an expression: there is no medicine to cure stupidity. For as long as people are stupid and believe anything, there will be someone who's happy to deliver rubbish (for want of a shorter word!) and it will be mindlessly lapped up by the gullible ones. I fear that that will never change. Is it really worth trying?
Those with an ounce of judgement can rely on their olfactory skills to identify what certain authors are putting out. Those without a nose can't/won't...

[RogerXXII]

Professor, I thought your review was entirely too generous.
While I understand that invective is normally frowned upon, when reviewing a book, this particular excrescence demands a copious and forceful use of invective.

[ProfessorW]

Roger XXII, a point well taken. I thought of a short ode as a review, but after "tragic" and "coprophagic", I couldn't find any suitable rhymes.

[RogerXXII]

It was a nice beginning, though...

She's apparently invented surviving progeny for Matilda of Tuscany.

I wonder how she keeps her flock of adoring followers away from actual history books.

[ProfessorW]

I imagine that's quite easy:

- because the sentences are not pre-masticated and gooey
- real history wouldn't be the natural fare for them
- there would be some actual historical heroes who were not female stunted red-heads
- not all of the female victims would be undiscovered heroines
- real history would appear too black-and-white and be set in real foreign countries and, most important of all,
- effort, concentration and, sadly, further study would be required.

I used to own a Weimaraner. We fed him well, but his greatest passion in life was hoovering up deer droppings in the local park. That's all he really wanted. To each his own!

PS am I too pedantic when I think that if you lay claim to be a trans-galactic authority on French spiritual centres, it detracts ever so slightly from your authority if you consistently get the name of one of the major examples incorrect? Unless I have completely misunderstood, "San Sulpice" is more likely to be in Mexico than in Paris, where it's called "Saint Sulpice"!
Similarly, I suspect that the mediaeval banners in the next oeuvre are unlikely to bear the legend "Les Temps Revient", as on la Serenissima's website; "Le Temps revient" would have a little more French orthography about it.

[StellaMaris]

I'm up to page 293 now - about halfway through - and really having to force myself to finish it.

But, trying to be editorially objective here - I think our problem is that we all simply know the material too well, and all the background bullshit, and therefore can see through the spin. I can imagine that if these were genuinely new insights and ideas to someone who had never come across this material before, that it could be considered fascinating.

So, maybe we need to keep reminding ourselves that this genre is meant to be regarded as mainstream FICTION books - they aren't actually REAL... even though some of the references peppering the books are hauntingly familiar. And if people read these books and enjoy them, then so be it.

Am feeling very generous and balanced on this sunny Spring Equinox on the Greenwich Meridian!

:puke:

[ProfessorW]

I can imagine that if these were genuinely new insights and ideas to someone who had never come across this material before, that it could be considered fascinating.

:puke:

I lack Stella's imagination! I hadn't come across most of the material before and I didn't find it fascinating at all!
In fact, I'd like to borrow Stella's emoticon::puke:

[StellaMaris]

I lack Stella's imagination! I hadn't come across most of the material before and I didn't find it fascinating at all!

Well, that's not quite true, W. You weren't around for the Matilda material, but you have seen and know the story behind the Cluny unicorn tapestry in my library and you were also the one to make the Herring pilgrimage to Chartres Cathedral on the Feast Day of Mary Magdalene last July, so you know all the correct coordinates there, as well.

I'm pretty sure you actually visited Notre Dame de Chartres in person (as opposed to simply Googling it and pretending to have been there) because a) we updated by phone while you were sitting at the Cafe Serpent, b) I saw your photos of the correct coordinates, c) you brought me back some nice archaeology books on the crypt and the labyrinth that I didn't already have and - most importantly - d) you bought me the DVD of the famous STELLA MARIS Oratorio that premiered at Chartres Cathedral.

[RogerXXII]

She who shall remain nameless posts photos on her book's website, purporting to show architectural features of Orval Abbey that were somehow put there by Matilda of Tuscany.

Thousands of impressionable old ladies will no doubt forever be left with the completely erroneous impression that Matilda of Tuscany had a role in the foundation of Orval. Sad. Reprehensible.