What do you suggest for new writers?

[Cncrman]

Besides a basic grasp of the English language, what do you suggest someone who is interested in writing do?

Take a class (is so, what kind)?

Read the classics (if so, which ones)?

Start journalling?

Please, share your thoughts!

[DarkJedi]

After reading the advice of King and many more authors whom detail their beginnings...I would suggest a writer flesh out his/her imagination as much as possible on some written form or another. I've heard authors who say they like to keep everything in their brain, driving up details which work better before putting anything down in ink but more authors prescribe to the "Write everything down" philosphy while it's fresh in their minds.

Do you need a perfect story concept before writing anything? No.

In fact, a big "NOOOOOO".

Nothing is perfect and if as an author that's all you're looking for when fleshing out your imagination, you will go nowhere real fast. There will be mistakes, plotholes, spelling goofs, story details which make little sense as you put your ideas down to ink that first, second, and third times in draft-form. It's not your job in the beginnings to scrutinize over every detail so much as lay out the foundations of the story. Details will come to the author later in the process and the whole reason of having an editor in the process is to find mistakes that the author's mind passes over.

That's another thing. Never be afraid of criticism in the publishing process. Never be ashamed of what people around you feel about your work in pre-published form. The editors, the critics, the agent, etc. It's their jobs to keep the author on their toes when it comes to terms of making your written work better. That doesn't mean throwing your story concept out the window if they don't like it. If well known authors threw out stories in their earlier years that publishers and agents didn't get, there will be alot of classics out there not existing. That said, they will find mistakes in plot lines, spelling mistakes, etc. Accept that and don't be afraid of the criticism. Welcome it instead.

Keep your love of the imagination that circles the world of your ideas close at hand. It will help you.

An author experiences alot of hardships early on in their careers where they can't find any of their work published due to the atmosphere of the industry but it doesn't stop them from pursuing their dreams of it. They keep their written works stored away, perhaps never to be published just to look back upon because even if it isn't published, it will still be there to be cherished by the author. In other words, write with your heart. Put your soul into it because the love an author shows for his characters, his settings is very evident to the reader's perspective when it comes down to buying it and experiencing it for the first time.

[madi]

I recommend that you talk with other writers on a regular basis..... friends, or whatever. There are lots of websites with bulletin boards if you don't know someone.

What I found when I started writing was how useful it was to just bounce ideas off someone else. Sometimes that other person didn't have to do anything but be there; just the self-talk helped. That person, if they are honest, can also give you some ideas where you are heading way off the mark. I know that sometimes I'm too close to my work to see what's going wrong. Finally, there are going to be times when you think you are going crazy, but you discover that others feel that way too.

[neglet]

Tip #1: Read, read, read. It doesn't have to be "classics," just read often and broadly. You'd be surprised how many people think "oh, I'd like to be a bestselling author" but don't actually read very much. Seek out different authors and genres; even reading something crappy can be useful as an example of what NOT to do. The more experience you have as a reader, the more you can learn as a writer.

Tip #2: Write! Practice makes, well, not "perfect" but as close to it as you can get. It doesn't matter what you write--a journal or blog, a short story, a list of story ideas or character names--just something to get your mind moving and yourself in the habit of writing. It sounds stupid, but you can't be a writer unless you write. Too many people like the idea of being a writer, and come up with ideas to write about, but never set down to the work (and it is WORK) of writing.

Tip #3: Find a writers' group. It can be online or in person, but regularly exchanging feedback with other writers improves your writing. Not only do you get input on how to improve your own work, you learn to analyze other people's writing, which in turn helps you learn what works and what doesn't. A writers' group can also keep you working when you might be inclined to slack off. Mine meets twice a month, and once a month I have to have something ready, or I waste my slot. It gives me incentive to finish chapters instead of playing computer games. :) Plus, as Madi says, it's great to meet people who understand the challenges of writing and can tell you you're not crazy.

Tip #4: Once you've been writing regularly for a while, and have had a chance to look at reference books like the "Writer's Market" that can give you answers to FAQs about the industry, then think about taking classes or attending conferences. I'm not saying you need to write and research on your own for a long, long time, but you'll get more out of them if you're not an absolute neophyte about writing. Spend a couple months getting into the habit of writing, and learning about writing, then look into classes or seminars.

This reminds me of another thread topic. See you there.

[Kaeos]

Tip #1: Read, read, read. It doesn't have to be "classics," just read often and broadly. You'd be surprised how many people think "oh, I'd like to be a bestselling author" but don't actually read very much. Seek out different authors and genres; even reading something crappy can be useful as an example of what NOT to do. The more experience you have as a reader, the more you can learn as a writer.

Tip #2: Write! Practice makes, well, not "perfect" but as close to it as you can get. It doesn't matter what you write--a journal or blog, a short story, a list of story ideas or character names--just something to get your mind moving and yourself in the habit of writing. It sounds stupid, but you can't be a writer unless you write. Too many people like the idea of being a writer, and come up with ideas to write about, but never set down to the work (and it is WORK) of writing.

Tip #3: Find a writers' group. It can be online or in person, but regularly exchanging feedback with other writers improves your writing. Not only do you get input on how to improve your own work, you learn to analyze other people's writing, which in turn helps you learn what works and what doesn't. A writers' group can also keep you working when you might be inclined to slack off. Mine meets twice a month, and once a month I have to have something ready, or I waste my slot. It gives me incentive to finish chapters instead of playing computer games. :) Plus, as Madi says, it's great to meet people who understand the challenges of writing and can tell you you're not crazy.

Tip #4: Once you've been writing regularly for a while, and have had a chance to look at reference books like the "Writer's Market" that can give you answers to FAQs about the industry, then think about taking classes or attending conferences. I'm not saying you need to write and research on your own for a long, long time, but you'll get more out of them if you're not an absolute neophyte about writing. Spend a couple months getting into the habit of writing, and learning about writing, then look into classes or seminars.

This reminds me of another thread topic. See you there.

Most of what she said. :D

[Space Tycoon]

Negs, in your estimation, would you say that posting here on a semi-regular basis can be described as writing pratice?



.

[neglet]

Yes.

[SlamShut]

It's pretty simple.

Read. Write. Repeat.

[Nostromo]

This thread reminded me of a site I landed on while surfing. Maybe of interest to some here. Enjoy. N

http://story.exis.net/masterlink/general.htm

[Space Tycoon]

Yes.


Does that include one-word posts? :wink:



.

[neglet]

Does that include one-word posts?

No.

[Space Tycoon]

No.

Ah.




.

[DeschainGang]

Read Stephen King's book On Writing three times. In it he will say to do this:

Read alot.
Write alot.
Don't use adverbs. (slowley, angrily, prancingley...ect.)
Use you own vocabulary...don't dress it up-you will look stupid.
Write your first drafts behind a closed door..show this draft to nobody.
Write your second draft with the door open...show this one to someone you trust.
Don't say, "The meeting will be held at 7:00 pm." This is passive.
Do say, "The meeting's at 7:00 pm." This is active. Be active.
When you sit down to write, tell a story. When you are done go back with a big black marker and take out ALL that is not the story.


Good Luck!:D

[robert eggleton]

I have very mixed feelings about self-promotion once you've got something to market. On one hand, the marketplace appears monopolized with publishers only investing in promoting writers with name recognition and the only way for most first-time authors to get their work noticed is by self-promotion. On the other hand, and perhaps related, self-promotion intrudes on the advertising dollars needed to run interactive sites and some admins are harsh, and some posters on those sites have such a broad definition of "spam" that they are mean if you mention a work by a first time author, even if it's not your own.

Writing is the easy part. My suggestion is to begin to think about marketing when you have the first chapter finished. It's not like the "old days" or the way that many people assume. Writing talent may not be the most prominent accomplishment within the field.

Another suggestion -- and, this is a mistake I made -- censorship of written word is much more stringent than with television. As I wrote, I had a South Park audience in mind. While well received, my novel has been called "profane" and "outrageous." In reality, it's much milder than any South Park episode. I didn't realize that there was a double standard, so, tone it down in your first draft and you will save yourself a lot of editing.

BTW, my novel won an award yesterday.

Robert Eggleton

[DeschainGang]

I don't know about the above statement .... writing talent not being the most important aspect of "the field". Actually, I think that type of approach is male-bovine-dung.:) Thinking about marketing after the first chapter? Do this and your work will be heartless drivel. If you want to be a writer-WRITE. Nike had it all along...so did the Cable Guy. If you want to get published get ready to be disappointed. If you are good and you write as much as possible and market your work after it's finished (or get an agent!) you can get published. AND I MEAN REALLY PUBLISHED-NOT BOGUS PDF DOWNLOADING. We are out there dropping our hard-earned cash for dross all the time...we would love something good.

[kah]

Congrats, Robert!!

[neglet]

If you are good and you write as much as possible and market your work after it's finished (or get an agent!) you can get published. AND I MEAN REALLY PUBLISHED-NOT BOGUS PDF DOWNLOADING. We are out there dropping our hard-earned cash for dross all the time...we would love something good.

You make it sound so easy .... have you actually tried selling a book to a mainstream publisher? Half of them don't read unagented manuscripts, so if you don't have an agent they won't even look at your work. Those that will read them have "slush piles" several feet high, so they take months and months to look at your work before they send you a template rejection letter--usually no feedback as to why they don't want it, just "it doesn't suit our needs right now." Agents (at least the reputable ones) have similar slush piles--I was at one conference where an agent said that out of 3000 submissions he'd seen in the past year, he'd only taken one on as a client.

I work hard at writing. I belong to a critique group who helps me polish it; I know I'm a good writer, and they like the work, but it's serendipity to find an editor who also loves it enough to bring it to publication. I attend conferences to find editors. I submit my work--I've had some pieces come close, and one editor asked to see a whole novel after reading the sample--but it's a long slog. That editor has had my novel for over a year and a half, with no word on whether she's interested or not. I sent a sample of another novel to a different editor 9 months ago, with no word from her yet. It's a long, hard, frustrating slog to navigate the maze of getting published, and unless you've tried it yourself you have no idea how difficult it is.

So Robert, congrats on your book and your award. It's challenge enough to finish a novel, and getting it published, even by a smaller press, is also an achievement. I wish you luck finding ways to get it noticed by a wider audience.

[robert eggleton]

This thread reminded me of a site I landed on while surfing. Maybe of interest to some here. Enjoy. N

http://story.exis.net/masterlink/general.htm

Thanks,

Robert Eggleton

[DeschainGang]

You make it sound so easy .... have you actually tried selling a book to a mainstream publisher? Half of them don't read unagented manuscripts, so if you don't have an agent they won't even look at your work..

I said get an agent. Sorry you have had such a hard time. The bottom line is if you are a "good writer" with an agent you will get published. There is no getting around this...unless publishers have us all brainwashed into buying stuff we don't like. Long live the free-market society.

Maybe you just are not a good writer.

Agents are in this to make money...if your writing was marketable you would have heard from them. All I was trying to say was you cannot force people to enjoy what you create. It's either worth the beans or not.

I'm happy for Robert. This thread is about advice for writer's...I was just disagreeing about a couple of points that Robert had made.


Peace...

[neglet]

Agents are in this to make money...if your writing was marketable you would have heard from them.

Again I wonder, have you ever tried to get an agent? A reputable agent? There are tons of them out there ... but some are frauds, just trying to take people's money. They set up a website and offer to "represent" you if you give them money, but they have no real contact with the publishing industry. So you have to research to find the good ones. Many aren't taking new clients.

Of course, it is so easy to predict what kind of writing is marketable ... that's why 26 publishers (all of whom are hitting themselves) refused to buy the first "Harry Potter" before Bloomsbury finally took it. My point was, agents and publishers won't just take any marketable work--it really has to speak to them if they're going to invest the effort of marketing and publishing the story.

I love fantasy and science fiction. You may love technothrillers. Another person may love horror. Another nonfiction. So if you send your work to 26 agents or publishers, they may turn you down. That doesn't mean your work is crap (although it could), it means your work didn't speak to those people. Maybe the 27th one will love it, adopt it, do all they can to get it published.

But there's no way to discover which of those 27 agents/publishers is the one. No shortcut through the months and months of slush pile lag time. Through the work and frustration. And if you'd had any experience with publishing, you wouldn't be so blithe to suggest an agent as the solution to all problems.

[DeschainGang]

Definition of blithe (adjective): happy; cheery; merry; carefree

Get an agent. Get an agent. Get an agent.

In which case was I being "blithe" in the above statements, Neglect? Maybe you should try giving advice to would-be-writers instead of criticizing my posts.:Smirk:

Hey Robert, great job getting published!

[neglet]

My advice to new writers was that "getting an agent" is not as simple or carefree a task as you were implying.

Here's another piece of advice to writers: if you write to someone in the industry, such as an editor or agent, make sure you spell their names correctly.

[DeschainGang]

My advice to new writers was that "getting an agent" is not as simple or carefree a task as you were implying.

I said get an agent...I didn't imply anything.

Neglect, you can wrap this whole thing in as much emotion as you need; please don't ASS-U-ME or imply anything that you are not sure about. I mean really, did I imply that getting an agent was easy? You READ into it that I was implying that it was easy. I don't like to stuff my posts with a bunch of fluffy sweet-talk because doing so is weak...for me and for the receiver of my posts. I give the truth brother/sister! Well, the truth according to DeschainGang. I will never start a sentence with, "I think...", OR "It is my personal opinion that...", OR "The way I see it..."...ect., because if I am speaking it is obviously my opinion.:D

Adding the other stuff is reserved for my 7 year old.

[robert eggleton]

I recommend that you grow a "thick skin" -- one as tough as the bark on a hickory tree. The quality of ones art will not likely be the deciding factor of success. Better than published in any genre or form can be found under the pee stained mattresses of most rooming houses. Once on the path, almost everyone you encounter will tell you that you're going the wrong direction, but to be successful you have to stomp forward without stepping on their toes, and if you accidentally do, apologize efficiently because such can be a neeless distraction and discouragement.

Traditional advice, available all over the net, in and of itself...well, don't give up your dayjob and maybe, for a dollar, you can talk your grandkids into reading something that you wrote, probably when much younger. Writing classes and workshops are great, but mainly exist to make money for the sponsors, not to help you achieve recognition.

The short story market can be a trap. Even if accepted by a paying market, the pay is very poor, but encouraging enough to motivate one to write another short story, piece of flash fiction, etc. I recomend that you focus on the true, and, while an occasional submission as a side may be okay (no major accomplishment if published), don't get trapped there. I believe that a lot of great writers have been diverted and frustrated because the short stories they published reinforced minimalism.

I recommend that you never commit to vanity or self-published presses. I know, by email correspondence, a guy who wrote a very cute and worthwhile novel, but his subsequent works were not considered because his first was POD, not because they were bad -- actually they were great. Such tarnishes a name.

Especially in cyberspace, a lot of people will recommend establishing relationships before promoting your work on forums. This would be excellent advice if humans lived three times as long. Instead, I recommend that you establiish the minimum presence to keep yourself from being banned or called spam by participants on thousands of sites. That's what I'm trying to do now. To be successful, and I'm not yet, one has to be sensitive to time constraints. It's the balance between the site's need for advertising revenue vs. self-promotion by an individual with no money to advertise. Don't be discouraged if you tilt in the direction of self-promotion and get banned -- it will be a mark of excellence if you succeed and a black mark on the forum if it still exists at the time. Even if so, the best relationshiips on any two or three will not be of substantial benefit in the long run -- you might as well have have sold Tupperware during house parties.

Balance yourself -- the starving artist is out of style. Major in something realistic while in college and don't let the need to write consume. I'm a therapist in a chldren's mental health program. I work hard. But, it also gives me material. There's material everyplace. If one sits on her or his butt, dreaming of being an author, there's much less real material to work with.

Good luck!

Robert
"Rarity from the Hollow"