Yet another Tomb of Jesus

[DVB]

This story seems to have splashed in the last couple of hours: the Discovery Channel are showing a documentary on March 4th claiming that the tomb of Jesus, Mary Magdalene and their son Judah has been discovered. This is the version from the Washington Post at www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/26/AR2007022601077.html:

Filmmaker shows relics from disputed Jesus tomb

By Christine Kearney
Reuters
Monday, February 26, 2007; 6:31 PM

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Hollywood director James Cameron displayed on Monday artifacts that he said might have come from the tomb of Jesus, which once contained his remains, those of Mary Magdalene, and possibly their son, Judah.

But others said it was just a publicity stunt backed by the man who made the movie "Titanic" and "The Terminator" to promote a documentary and a book, and likely untrue.

Cameron and a team of scholars showed two stone ossuaries, or bone boxes, that he said might have once contained the bones of Jesus and Mary Magdalene. The findings are the subject of a documentary he produced called "The Lost Tomb of Jesus" and a book "The Jesus Family Tomb."

The two small caskets were part of 10 found in 1980 during construction in South Jerusalem. Several had inscriptions translated as Jesus, Mary Magdalene and "Judah, son of Jesus," Cameron told a news conference at the New York Public Library surrounded by scholars and archeologists.

"This is the beginnings of an ongoing investigation," Cameron said. "If things come to light that erode this investigation, then so be it."

If true, the revelations are likely to raise the ire of Christians because the discovery would challenge the belief that Jesus was resurrected and ascended to heaven.

The documentary comes on the heels of the huge success of the novel "The Da Vinci Code," which contends that Mary Magdalene had a child with Jesus.

Dr. Shimon Gibson, one of the archeologists who discovered the tomb, told Reuters at the news conference he had a "healthy skepticism" the tomb may have belonged to the family of Jesus, but the claims deserved to be investigated.

In Jerusalem, the Israeli archeologist who also carried out excavations at the tomb on behalf of the Israel Antiquities Authority, disputed the documentary's conclusions.

The archeologist, Amos Kloner, said the 2,000-year-old cave contained coffins belonging to a Jewish family whose names were similar to those of Jesus and his relatives.

"I can say positively that I don't accept the identification (as) ... belonging to the family of Jesus in Jerusalem," Kloner told Reuters. "I don't accept that the family of Miriam and Yosef (Mary and Joseph), the parents of Jesus, had a family tomb in Jerusalem."

"They were a very poor family. They resided in Nazareth, they came to Bethlehem in order to have the birth done there -- so I don't accept it, not historically, not archeologically," said Kloner, a professor in the Department of Land of Israel Studies and Archeology at Bar-Ilan University near Tel Aviv.

After they were discovered, the bones were reburied according to Orthodox tradition, leaving just the boxes with inscriptions and human residue to be examined though ongoing DNA testing.

Professor L. Michael White, of the University of Texas, said he also doubted the claims were true.

"This is trying to sell documentaries," he said, adding a series of strict tests needed to be conducted before a bone box or inscription could be confirmed as ancient. "This is not archeologically sound, this is fanfare."

---------------------
As I say, "Yet another..." Jim Tabor's recent book The Jesus Dynasty starts off with an account of an ossuary inscribed "Jesus son of Joseph", and others nearby: "there was a Joseph; a Mary, presumably his wife; another Mary; a Jude son of Jesus; and a Matthew". The best-known one was marked "James, brother of Jesus". Actually, I thnk this must be the same "tomb". In which case this story has been widely known about for several years; these were discovered in 1980, catalogued in 1994, and splashed all over the press in 1996, and then forgotten about. So why all the fuss now? Because a famous Hollywood director (Titanic, Terminator) has just discovered the story and has made a documentary. Well, gosh.

Assuming it's the same lot, several points.
1. Mary was by far the most common female name in 1st century Palestine.
2. Joseph was the second most common male name, after Simon.
3. Even Jesus (Yeshu, Yeshua, Yehoshua in Hebrew -- i.e. the same name as Joshua) was pretty common.
4. Why would the biblical Joseph-Mary-Jesus-etc family tomb be in or near Jerusalem? That's not where they lived.
5. Scholars have been arguing over the authenticity of the inscriptions since they were discovered, with quite a large body of opinion that they are at least partly forgeries considerably more recent than the 1st century CE.
6. One scholar I saw interviewed on TV tonight seemed very dubious about the name Jesus actually being inscribed there at all.

Yawn...

The documentary's website is http://www.jesusfamilytomb.com/ -- if you can be bothered. Prof James Tabor's involved, so yes, this is the same one. But really, why all the hoo-hah now?

But if it is all genuine (one hell of a big "if"), that would stomp on your "Jesus in Kashmir" theory, Suzanne!

[Suzanne Olsson]

David,
I am not troubled by this news...in fact it made me smile...
I will certainly watch their documentary on March 4th with interest,
and, of course, I wish them well....:)

Sue

[DVB]

I'm not bothered either. If it is Jesus's ossuary, well, everyone has to be buried somewhere, whether Kashmir or Jerusalem. But I think the strong likelihood is that this isn't his ossuary or his family tomb, for the reasons I mentioned last night.

What amuses me, and causes me some despair, is that these finds have been discussed by scholars for ten years, with a general feeling, I think, that they are not the tomb of Jesus. When I reviewed James D Tabor's The Jesus Dynasty recently in Fortean Times, I didn't even mention the idea, mainly because it simply wasn't anything new. Hence my yawn last night (though it was late as well!).

Plenty has been written about these ossuaries, in books and in the press, over the last few years. They've been shown and discussed in several documentaries already. So why was the story on every News programme last night? When I did a quick Google search I found several hundred news stories from the last couple of hours. Simply because it's a film by Hollywood director James Cameron, and he and the Discovery Channel can afford a good PR company. And so a ten-year-old story is suddenly brand-new News. Yawn.

[Suzanne Olsson]

Hello David,
I think your analysis of the whole story about the 'tomb of Jesus' is spot on....it's publicity hype..
in same category as the expected ones....plural because we can expect more...
I didn't know you reviewed Tabor's book...can you provide link to Fortean Times article where it appears? I shall read it with trepidation...I may never tell you when my book is avaialble for review..:OhWell:
Sue

[DVB]

I reviewed Tabor's book along with Bart D Ehrman's Peter, Paul & Mary Magdalene (fabulous title!) in FT 217, Dec 2006, pp57ff. I concluded:
If you simply want a good read with some unorthodox ideas, The Jesus Dynasty wins out, for some of its fascinating archaeological descriptions if nothing else. But I’m afraid Tabor lets his enthusiasm run away with him; as a scholarly study it just doesn’t have the clout of Ehrman’s book. Ehrman concludes: “The reality is that history does not come to us in unmediated guise. It comes to us in stories from the past, told by real flesh-and-blood humans who were interpreting their stories – even their historically accurate ones – in light of their own situations, concerns, beliefs, practices, needs and values. This is true even of us today…” And this is perhaps evident in Tabor’s book.
I don't think FT publish the mag online; I'll email you my review if you like.

[Suzanne Olsson]

Hello David,
Thank you for taking the time to write that review out. The synopsis was just fine, thank you. I got the idea..

I bought "the Jesus Dynasty' expecting something quite different. I was dissapointed in the way Tabor selectively chose the material that would support his conclusions...conclusions I dont agree with at all....but of course he gets an 'A' for scholarship for his well-sourced references.. something that will cause me to get shot down quick, I'm sure...

I used to keep excellent notes, documented everything on Bodi leaves in Nepal, and the margins of Urdu newspapers in North West Frontiers of Pakistan....and on bits of torn napkins in Afghanistan...

All these promptly got recycled during calls of nature when nothing else was available in the Himalayas...
Ever speak to anyone whose trekked Nepal? Especially the beautiful trails in the newly opened Mushtan district...
When you wake up after camping on the trails all night, you'd swear there had been a snowball fight...whole terrain is littered with little wads of TP paper left everywhere on the stony ground....yuk... but what else could anyone do out there?

Ya gotta keep in mind that I wasn't there for a few hours, or days, or weeks, but years..and most of that time I never intended to write a book...that was an afterthought..

so I could never produce a book of the high caliber that Tabor produced..I really do admire him for that...but I certainly cant compete with it..

Even a poorly written book will fare better if it has good sources mentioned,, than a well-written book that fails to list sources properly..so I dont expect much for my meager little contribution to the book world..it's been a labor of love and conviction for me, but I'm realistic about it...

I wish them all well on this tomb of Jesus business...but I suspect it will be their own contemporaries who burst their bubble...and come forward with the arguments against this being the real tomb of Jesus...hope they are wearing full-body armour.

We shall wait on the sidelines and see what develops. I wish them alll well...

Sue

[DVB]

Well, his references should be well-sourced -- he's an academic! I actually fault him for leaping to conclusions on insufficient evidence, and for making logical leaps worthy of the most speculative of speculative writers. If I'd done that, my professor would have torn me to shreds.

As for the Hima - loo - as, having spent just 8 days last summer staying with a niece and her family in very primitive conditions in the Pyrenees, I sympathise with the problem. Perching on top of an oil drum in full view of everyone else is not my idea of comfort and privacy, and I'm certainly no prude!

Btw, love your new avatar.

D

[AdrianGilbert]

Hi Folks, I haven't been here for a while but couldn't resist putting in my half-pence worth. What strikes me as obvious is that if (and I say IF) the ossuary bearing Jesus' name is genuine and contains his bones, then surely there will be marks of nails on them. Are there reports of damaged wrist and ankle bones, consistent with someone who has been nailed on a cross? Is there a skull with teeth? What do these tell us about the age of the individual at death? These surely are simple tests that can and should be done. Has this been reported?:headscratch:

[Suzanne Olsson]

Comment (regarding the recent discovery of the Jesus Ossuaries)
Laurence Gardner
2-27-7
In December 2004, four Israelis and a Palestinian (led by antiques dealer Oded Golan of Tel-Aviv) were indicted by the Israel State authorities on charges of having run a lucrative forgery ring for several decades. The Israel Antiquities Authority and the Israeli police claimed that the defendants had created a series of biblically-related fakes, some of which had been bought for very high prices and placed in the prestigious Israel Museum in Jerusalem.
Since then, numerous well-known items have now been officially declared as fakes, and among those under current investigation (since it originated with Oded Golan and features in the ongoing court case) is the James ossuary. It is fully expected that the Jesus tomb ossuaries (which have absolutely no archaeological provenance) will also fall into the same Golan team category.
It is astonishing to see so many press entries which relate to 'bones' and/or 'disintegrated bones' in the ossuaries. There are no bones. There never were any bones. It is a felony under Israel State law to own or keep ossuaries containing bones or bone residue (even for museums). Any ossuary unearthed containing bone remnants must be thoroughly emptied and brushed out, with the items and residue re-buried in precisely the same location as the discovery. Only after that, and a sanctification of the site, can the ossuary be removed. We saw on TV back in 1996 that all of these ossuaries were completely empty and inwardly cleaned. So, if there are any bone remnants there now, then someone has put them there for the sake of the documentary and the supposed DNA testing by Simcha Jacobovici and James Cameron.

[AdrianGilbert]

Comment (regarding the recent discovery of the Jesus Ossuaries)
Laurence Gardner
2-27-7
So, if there are any bone remnants there now, then someone has put them there for the sake of the documentary and the supposed DNA testing by Simcha Jacobovici and James Cameron.

Isn't that interesting. Of course faking holy relics is almost as old as Christianity itself. It was a veritable industry in the middle ages. With all that's available with technology in the modern world, why should we think it is any different now...especially if there are significant amounts of money involved.:lol:

[DVB]

The last I heard, a few months ago (i.e. long before the news of the Cameron documentary), was that the experts were suspicious of some of the lettering. Although it's covered with what appears to be the grot of centuries, they're trying to test the grot to see how old it really is.

Much as I hate to be seen agreeing with Laurence Gardner (!), he's right that there's no archaeological provenance to these finds. We're told (more or less) where they came from, but their uncovering wasn't professionally documented, so we've no idea what was above or below or next to them -- and in archaeology, context is all. They weren't even photographed in situ before their removal.

I was dubious about the "James ossuary" when I first heard about it a few years ago. I'm just as dubious about it (and all its cousins) now.

[AdrianGilbert]

There is, of course, a far greater interest in all this than just the provenance of a group of ossuaries. The same thing goes for the purported 'tomb of Jesus' in Kashmir and other possible burial places for him in France, Britain and even Japan. Whatever is the truth behind such claims (and they can't all be true) is an acceptance that Jesus died like any other mortal man, was entombed by his disciples and left holy bones to be venerated.

Now the fact that this flies in the face of the Gospel story: that he rose from the dead and ascended into heaven, is not, it seems, an argument that holds water in the modern world. After all, does not the Gospel story itself fly in the face of reason? What possible truth can there be in such a tall story? Why on earth should we believe that Jesus Christ was in any way different from the rest of us: that he died, was buried and his corpse rotted to leave just bones? If so, there might well be a grave somewhere: we should look.

Yet the Gospel account is more than a tall-story. It is a presentation of an account whose basis is pure mysticism. For if Jesus did rise from the dead and ascend into heaven, then these acts were 'super-natural', i.e. beyond the normal laws of cause and effect that govern our natural world. The Gospel story, beyond being a morality tale, preaches the possibility of transcendence. It holds out the possibility that we too may overcome death and, indeed, ascend into heaven.

Now this teaching (if we may call it that) is not unique to Christianity. If we go back some pages in the Bible, to the Book of Genesis to be exact, we read of Enoch, the grandfather of Noah. He was evidently taken into heaven without having to die first: 'Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him' [Gen. 5:24]. So too much later on was the Prophet Elijah. 'And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. [2Kings 2:11]'

Outside of Judeo-Christianity there is the story of Osiris. Like Jesus he died and indeed was dismembered. However, he didn't leave any bones behind in a mummy wrapping. He too ascended to heaven to become one with the stars of Orion.

Now in my books (notably 'Signs in the Sky') I have presented evidence for believing that such events were linked to stellar timings. I have calculated that the true date for the first easter was the 17th April 29 AD. This being so, the date of Ascension would have been 39 days later on the 27th May. Curiously, on this day the sun was positioned exactly at the 'star-gate': the place over the up-stretched hand of Orion where the ecliptic crosses the median plane of the milky way. Coincidence? Well maybe. However, Orion as we know was linked with the Egyptian 'Father' god: Osiris. So how curious that Jesus said he was going to the right hand of his father and the sun was positioned on this day at the right hand of Orion.

Now you may think that all that I have written on this and other matters is just so much mystical nonsense. But there again: what is religion if it is not mystical? We do not need Bishops as social workers in mitres. What we do need is teachers of the way: people who understand the mystical side of the tradition they are meant to represent and can show us how to achieve the goals it sets. That we are today let down totally in this respect should not blind us to the possibility of self-transformation. We owe it to ourselves if not to later generations to keep alive the teaching of such a possibility even if we ourselves fail miserably in the attainment.

For this and other reasons I laugh at the discovery of these ossuaries, which in the absence of a single 'os' are surely misnamed. One or even three empty boxes does not a heresy make. I look forward to the resurrection of the dead at the end of time when, if we are lucky and well-prepared, a few of us may make it off planet earth to experience what else the universe has to offer. If such a hope is foolishly irrational, then so be it. I for one am following a mystical path.:)

[Suzanne Olsson]

One thiing I quickly learned when I was tracking down all these legends, is they may ALL have some historical truth. I found dozens of 'resting places' for Mother Mary along the Old Silk Road...It took a while to grasp the concept that this is not the same as Final resting place...here's the reply I posted to Rense's site...it may or may not appear there later, but it sums up what I know about ossuaries to date:

First, I wish to thank Laurence Gardner for his observations about the ossuaries found in Jerusalem. He yanked the world back into perspective and exposed another bad publicity stunt in the name of Jesus.
However, before judging the bone boxes as 'fakes' or 'authentic,' I would offer this historical observation.
Recall the death of Thomas in India. His bones were later recovered from Mylapor and brought to Chios. During the Islamic conquests, there was fear his remains would be desecrated or destroyed, so he was moved again to Ortona (Italy). Most of his relics were acquired by the Church of Edessa and his relic bones distributed among several Churches.

There are historical references to this practice that go as far back as Noah..
It would seem quite ordinary for a Jewish family consisting of members who were living great distances from each other, to each carry a few bones of a beloved father or grandmother with them. The bone boxes found in Jerusalem may very well have contained a few bone remains from each family member...and they may very well have been of Jesus' family: .but this would represent neither their final nor their only resting place...Their remains could be scattered over a wide area. More remains could theoretically be found simultaneoulsy at Glastonbury, Scotland, France, or any other place..even Kashmir...they would all be valid.

Suzanne Olsson
author; Jesus, Last King of Kashmir

[Suzanne Olsson]

Israel-born Simcha Jacobovici and James Cameron have prepared a film, claiming that they have found the Tomb of Jesus Christ and his family, at Talpiot in a suburb of Jerusalem . The basis of their tall claim is deciphering and reading of the wedge-shaped cuneiform marks scratched on the ossuaries made of lime mortar. Both of them are not experts in the science of reading ancient Semitic scripts, like Aramaic, Kharooshti, Syriac, Siniatic or Arabic. The net result has been that they have jumped to pool their intentional conclusions.



I, the author of a Search for the Historical Jesus (www.amazon.com.) and the Fifth Gospel (www.bluedolphinpublishing.com) would like to draw the attention of the archaeologists, historians and the Bible scholars to the following:



1. In March 1980, during construction of a building the archaeologist found 10 ossuaries and 3 skulls. The skulls and the bones were buried quickly by the Jewish authorities. As such, all the 10 limestone empty boxes remained in charge of the Israeli authorities, up till now.

2. In 1996, BBC produced a film on these ossuaries, but it could not incite any reaction, from the academic field. Now in March 2007 the $ 4 million film (Jesus Family Tomb) was shown on Discovery Channel.

3. The above would reveal that for the last 27 years none from the academic world made any claim to have deciphered the name of Jesus Christ, on any ossuary.

4. The ossuary said to belong to Jesus Christ is made of lime mortar, and given shape into small rectangular box, with imprinted design and pattern on the top lid only, as detailed below:

i) An engraved fringe at the sides

ii) 2 circles bifurcated by a fringe, each containing 6 triangles in the shape of a flower.

iii) 2 circles divided by 3 strips of s fringe decorated by 3 small circle each.

5. There is no inscription engraved on the 6 sides of this lime plastered box. It only carry scratches to look like a inscription, which has been done some time after the manufacture of lime box, by the use of some sharp-edged iron tool.

6. Out of the 10 ossuaries, 6 carry cuneiform scratching or marks. These cuneiform scratches can be assumed to read as incibed alphabets from Kharoshti, Aramaic, Hebrew, Syriac and Arabic.

7. The claim made by the film makers that the words on one ossuary can be read as in Aramaic Yeshn bin Yossef is totally rejected due to the following reasons:

a) Bin is used by the Arabs, depicting parentage. As such the relatives of Yeshu or Jesus knew only Aramaic and not Arabic.

b) It is possible that some a curio dealer has got etched these words on the lime plaster, for the sake of money.

c) Jesus was never known as Yeshu, nor his father was never known as Yossef during their life time.

d) The so called inscription Yeshu son of Yossef shows that the alphabets have been altered on the right side, for it shows deeper inside incised cuts. In fact the last 3 alphabets have been changed in a crude way by first marking it with ink, then water and then erased with a sharp edged tool. Thus, it is a mutilated inscription.

e) On the left, the deep horizontal asterisk mark and the two dots down side have also been made by the use of water and a steel spoke.

8. Jesus belonged to a poor family of Nazareth and it was not possible for his descendants to build a family Tomb in Jerusalem , far away from the town of his birth.

9. Roman Paganism prevailed in Roman Empire ( Palestine included in it ) till 312 AD. Jesus at the time of his meeting with Paul, in 36 AD. 6 years after his crucifixion, tells him that the Romans are persecuting him (Acts 9:3-4). How could the Roman allow Jesus to be buried in a tomb in Jerusalem , when they were searching him in later years.

10. The Jewish brain has exploited archaeology for political ends to overthrow the Muslim presence from the Temple site in Jerusalem . It is yet to be proved that the etchings made on the lime ossuaries are as old as the ossuaries itself. The film maker is a Jew. The question arises as to why have they waited for 30 years to prove that it is Jesus Christ’s family tomb. There is some political agenda behind this wild claim.

11. when the Tomb is supposed to belongs to one family, then why the inscriptions have been made to appear in Latin in case of Maria, in Greek in case Mary, and in Aramaic in case of Jesus who lived in the same period i.e., first century AD.

12. My study tells me that the genuine parts of etchings and scratching pertain to pre-Christ period, sometime between 330-559 B.C. It will take sometime for me to decipher and read these names.



Professor Fida Hassnain

[DVB]

Whatever is the truth behind such claims (and they can't all be true) is an acceptance that Jesus died like any other mortal man, was entombed by his disciples and left holy bones to be venerated.
That, to me, is the common sense explanation. And you can still have mystical religion and esoteric spirituality without the need for the physical resurrection of Jesus.

Suzanne explains a possible way around "they can't all be true", in the bones being split up, and/or resting in different places at different times. There's also, of course, mediaeval invention and exaggeration, and the old line that you could build a boat out of all the pieces of the True Cross. As for vials of the milk of the Virgin...

There is one relic that Sue's explanation couldn't really apply to, and that's the Holy Foreskin or Prepuce. It's been claimed by as many as 18 different places; surely, in Adrian's words, "they can't all be true"! (Sadly, they all seem to have been mislaid over the years -- possibly due to the Catholic Church in 1900 threatening excommunication to anyone who kept going on about it!) Some of the stories about it are, shall we say, unusual. St Catherine wore it as a wedding ring; and as for what St Bridget is supposed to have done with it...

[DVB]

The documentary is being shown tonight on the Discovery Channel (9-11pm ET/PT), followed by a studio discussion.

Two questions. First, would anyone in the States like to give us a quick resume &/or comment when you've seen it?
And second, does anyone know when it will be shown on the right hand side of the pond?

Meanwhile, I'll try to get hold of the book.

[Suzanne Olsson]

Sun Mar 4, 2007 12:24 pm

Comments submitted by John Koopmans

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


JesusDynasty] Response Jesus' Tomb by Professor Fida Hassnain-India


I'm very surprised at the lack of research exemplified by some of the statements below, and feel that this is just another example of why biblical research requires a multi-disciplinary approach. Too many "Professors" are extending their expertise into areas where they are not qualified, yet the public is led to believe that because they are Professors, their word is legitimate. "Experts" such as Kloner are telling the journalists that there is no statistical significance to the cluster of names, yet they admit they have no expertise in statistics. I have never seen any document by Kloner academically "proving that the cluster of names are not significant. It is only his "word", backed up with his credentials in a related field. If archaeology is to ever mature as a credible "science" it is time that it expands into other related disciplinary fields of study, such as probability statistics.

Regarding just two of the claims as an example of the lack of research by this Professor, I would like to provide my comments:

> b) It is possible that some a curio dealer has got etched these
> words on the lime plaster, for the sake of money.

The ten ossuaries were catalogued as they were retrieved from the tomb in 1981 by Gath. Amos Kloner was present as part of the team and has published a paper in Atiquot (1996), confirming the inscription as "Yeshua(?) son of Yehosef". The ossuaries were in situ when found, so there is no possibility that these inscriptions were forged. The inscription is further verified in Tal Ilan's "Lexicon of Jewish Names in Late Antiquity" (2002) as well as in L.Y. Rahmani's "A Catalogue of Jewish Names in the Collections of the State of Israel" (1994). The validity of the ten ossuaries themselves are not in question. The ossuary that is under some dispute is the James ossuary and the possibility that it was the ossuary that went missing.

> 12. My study tells me that the genuine parts of etchings
> and scratching pertain to pre-Christ period, sometime between 330-559
> B.C. It will take sometime for me to decipher and read these names.

Further study would have revealed that the ossuaries in Jerusalem can only be dated from approximately 30 BC to 70 AD.

John

[Suzanne Olsson]

With thanks to Rabbi Barry Albin at the Jesus Dynasty Forum:

Keys at Mar Saba Monastery
Jerusalem – It was reported today that a monk at Mar Saba Monastery in Israel has discovered in a little used niche underneath the floor tile therein a set of keys. There is a string with a piece of paper attached and Professor Kloner has decreed that it says in First Century Aramaic, “belonging to Yeshua bar Yosef”. The keys have markings on them which would indicate that they are from a Honda Accord. While immediately declaring that these could not have been the keys of Jesus son of Joseph as there were no automobiles at that time, Professor Kloner, who is an expert epigrapher, declared that Honda Accords were not made until the 20th century, that the metal in the keys appeared to be aluminum which was not refined before the 19th century, and that the paper appeared to have lines on it which would not have been on a piece of paper from the first century.

Professor Robert Eisenman on the other hand contends that we can look at the specific statement in the book of Acts: “The disciples were in one Accord” Acts 4:32 to see that this must be the Accord that the scripture was talking about. He pointed out that it might be difficult to get all 12 of the disciples into this one Accord and that this was the real reason that Judas was not included in the original number. He noted that the normal body of a first century Jew must have been smaller than those now and gave us a tiny skeleton that he had found somewhere as proof. He further indicated that one Accord may be cryptic reorganization for Cone a Cord which really is a new kind of never before heard telephone somewhat like those cans on a cord from much later in history.

The Israeli Antiquities Authority took full charge of the keys and locked them away in a special vault that they maintain for things that they never want to see the light of day again and assigned a politician, MK Benjamin Natanyahu, to guard these keys with his somewhat fractured reputation.

ASOR said that they were forming a special committee composed of a literary expert, J. T. Rowling, a mystic, Dion Fortune, and a leading magician, David Copperfield, to study these keys as they are experts in obfuscation. The Jesus Project immediately rejected this committee and said they will appoint their own committee of reputable skeptics.

[DVB]

It's interesting how academics are scratching each others' eyes out (and pulling each others' hair -- all most undignified!) over these bone boxes. Robert Eisenman and his opponents are involved in verbal fisticuffs as well.

My only comment on John Koopmans' comments is that archaeologists (and anthropologists, and even sociologists) are trained in the use of probablity statistics, which isn't an "other related disciplinary field[s] of study", it's a methodological tool. A few days ago some idiot from the Discovery Channel was whiffling on about the "millions-to-one" chance of the names Jesus, Mary and Joseph occurring in proximity to each other by chance. That's simply twaddle. It's ex post facto reasoning, and poor reasoning to boot. They were three very common names, and have much the same chance of occurring together as any other three very common names. The fact that that particular combination of names has religious significance has absolutely no bearing on its statistical significance. Statistically it would have been far more rare to find a grouping of, say, Matthias, Priscilla and Benjamin, or any other less common names. (The same idiot then compounded his folly by talking about finding the graves of John, Paul, George and Ringo together. Ummm, duhhhhh........)

Here is the blurb for the book from amazon:

Book Description
Were the remains of Jesus' body found over 25 years ago and
the truth hidden? In a news conference in New York, documentary filmmaker
Simcha Jacobovici revealed the shattering story of what may be the most
controversial archaeological find of all time.
In 1980 a crypt was accidentally discovered in Jerusalem. Inside were
ossuaries (bone boxes) with inscriptions bearing the names of Jesus of
Nazareth, Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Judah, the son of Jesus. The artefacts
were recorded and catalogued and then locked away for over a quarter of a
century.

But the tomb itself wasn't destroyed. Instead it was buried under the
foundations of a modern apartment. In 2005, Jacobovici gained permission to
break the floor and re-enter the tomb. Together with top forensic
archaeologist Charles Pellegrino and the team involved in the original
discovery, he started an earth-shattering investigation that will shock the
world.
In a rollercoaster narrative combining history, archaeology and
cutting-edge science, The Jesus Family Tomb reveals:
* The incredible DNA testing on the remains of the bones in a New York
crime lab using the latest forensic technology.
* How the 'forgotten' Gnostic gospels hint at the truth of this discovery.
* The startling connection between these tombs, and the famous `James
Ossuary', the apparent remains of Jesus' brother discovered in 2003.
Are these the remains of the "Jesus" and "Mary" of the Bible? The Jesus
Family Tomb arrives at an extraordinary conclusion as we participate in one
of the most controversial investigations of an archaeological finding in
history.

Synopsis
Were the remains of Jesus's body found over 25 years ago and the truth hidden? Now, 'The Jesus Family Tomb' tells the shattering story of what may very well be the greatest archaeological find of all time. 'The Jesus Family Tomb' is the most exciting real-life archaeological detective story ever told. In 1980 a crypt was accidentally discovered in Jerusalem. Inside were ossuaries (bone boxes) with inscriptions bearing the names of Jesus of Nazareth, the Virgin Mary, Mary Magdalene, and Judah, the son of Jesus. The artefacts were recorded and catalogued and then locked away for over a quarter of a century. But the tomb itself wasn't destroyed -- it's under the foundations of a modern apartment. In 2005, documentary filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici gained permission to break the floor and re-enter the tomb. Together with top forensic archaeologist Charles Pellegrino and the team involved in the original discovery, he started an earth-shattering investigation that will shock the Judeo-Christian world. Destined to grab international headlines and raise fundamental questions about the origins of Christianity, we participate in one of the most controversial investigations of an archaeological finding in history.

[DVB]

Keys at Mar Saba Monastery
Jerusalem – It was reported today that a monk at Mar Saba Monastery in Israel has discovered in a little used niche underneath the floor tile therein a set of keys.....
Fabulous! :lol:

Reminds me of the proof that they had motorbikes in Old Testament days: "And the roar of David's triumph was heard through all Israel".

[AdrianGilbert]

That, to me, is the common sense explanation. And you can still have mystical religion and esoteric spirituality without the need for the physical resurrection of Jesus.


Of course you can but that is not the point. Surely the core appeal of Christianity is its promise of resurrection. Take away the Resurrection of Jesus and put his bones in an ossuary and you have a very different beast indeed. No longer particularly special: just another prophet who was ignored at the time.

On the other hand, if Jesus really was someone special: a man who could raise himself from the dead, walk through walls, and then in a final piece of occult theatre, 'ascend into heaven' you really have got something extraordinary. His life story then posits the possibility of over-riding the normal laws of Physics and possibly even defying time itself.

Of course it could all be nonsense. Not only that, all the accretions of superstition concerning the divine prepuce and such like does his message no favours. However, what if really is true? What if he was 'beamed up' from the Mount of Olives and is waiting to return in a cloud? What if this man was like Neo in the Matrix: able to stun his opponents with his immortality? Wouldn't that change things rather?

That to me is the real Christian Mysticism. All the rest if froth and as we can see from the evidence the rest of us have not yet found the solution to sickness, aging and death. In this context the family ossuary is a symbol of failure as are the bones of all the so-called 'Saints'.

[DVB]

I think we'll probably continue to disagree over this (and no doubt other things), though we needn't fall out over it!

Btw, Adrian, although I've had the edition of the Hermetica that you wrote a Foreword for, for some years, I didn't realise that you actually set up Solos Press to publish great classics in the field. Of the other three titles you published, I've had (a different edition of) William Lethaby's excellent Architecture, Mysticism and Myth for a long time (though can't find it on my shelves; I suspect I lent it to someone...). The other titles, William Kingsland's The Gnosis: or ancient wisdom in the Christian Scriptures and GRS Mead's The Doctrine of the Subtle Body, I don't have. (Incidentally, I tend to confuse GRS Mead with another great thinker, George Herbert Mead, who developed the social psychology philosophy of Symbilic Interactionism! -- they lived at roughly the same time.)

For publishing these books, as the younger generation would say, "Respect!"

[Suzanne Olsson]

On the other hand, if Jesus really was someone special: a man who could raise himself from the dead, walk through walls, and then in a final piece of occult theatre, 'ascend into heaven' you really have got something extraordinary. His life story then posits the possibility of over-riding the normal laws of Physics and possibly even defying time itself.

Well, Adrian, actually all this is commonly accepted among certain Buddhist and Hindu practioners....they would just shrug their shoulders and say "So what?" Then ascend and abandon bodies at will...wondering if we'll ever understand and catch up.

[DVB]

Well, Adrian, actually all this is commonly accepted among certain Buddhist and Hindu practioners....they would just shrug their shoulders and say "So what?" Then ascend and abandon bodies at will...wondering if we'll ever understand and catch up.
But surely these are just the very, very, very few -- gurus, what used to be called fakirs, or perhaps better, the bodhisattvas or the Masters. The vast majority even of mystical Hindus and Buddhists, let alone the countless milions of more mainstream believers, wouldn't have these powers, abilities or inclinations -- would they?

[Suzanne Olsson]

You're right, David...I used to get a headache trying.then deep meditation puts me into deep sleep in about five minutes....it just doesn't work for everyone..:OhWell:

[AdrianGilbert]

You're right, David...I used to get a headache trying.then deep meditation puts me into deep sleep in about five minutes....it just doesn't work for everyone..:OhWell:

Yeh. Ever tried walking through a wall? ...and that's just the easy bit!:lol:

[DVB]

Yeh. Ever tried walking through a wall? ...and that's just the easy bit!:lol:
There's that lovely scene in Jon Ronson's documentary series The Crazy Rulers of the World where US Major General Albert Stubblebine III keeps trying to walk through his office wall:
What is the wall mostly made up of? he thinks. Atoms! All I have to do is merge the spaces. The wall is an illusion. What is destiny? Am I destined to stay in this room? Ha, no!
Then General Stubblebine bangs his nose hard on the wall of his office.
Damn, he thinks.
From: The Men Who Stare at Goats, Picador 2004

[DVB]

It's been a couple of days since the documentary was broadcast. Did any of you guys in the States watch it? Sue? Soph?

[Suzanne Olsson]

Hello Dave and Adrian,
I am behind on posts and replies...sorry about that..
It was exciting for me to jump in on several forums discussing the film and the theory that it could be the tomb of Jesus...my name came up at several forums as people speculated if this would be the end of Chrsitianity and the end of my "Theory" that the real tomb is in Kashmir...
I felt confident to openly discusss with others the results of my own research...things that for the most part, had never been discussed before yet were such an integral part of my book and hypothesis...It was reassuring to know I was in the mainstream with many of my independent conclusions..
The film was excellent, but the critics blasted it as 'archaeo-porn' for its heavy biase in editing out all proof and statistics 'against' their theory..such as how they chose to translate the names scratched on the ossuaries.
I published two statements before the film was released; one written by Laurence Gardner and one written by Fida Hassnain. As it turned out, both men got it right about the translation of the names and some of the poor methods used to substantiate the filmakers claims about the tomb...
Hassnain made an anti-Semitic remark, and presumed the Jews would support thi film and open the site up to tourists, laughing all the way to the bank. In keeping with the theme of Tabor's book, that the entire crucifixion was a 'plot' to decieve people into thinking Jesus was the 'real' messiah...I can understand why he made this assumption, and I am not condoning it.. He was second-guessing the motives of those who have taken an obvious 'anti-Christian' stand..the entire premise of Tabor's book resonated with the theme that the crucifixion was a planned...a staged event.

I was tickled in the end when the film's critics attacked the film makers' translatiions on similar grounds. Hassnain had much of it right! Hassanin can translate ancient inscriptions in about 20 archaic languages... Sharda, Pali, Sanskrit, Hebrew, Brahmi, Latin, Magdian, Old and new Persian, Greek, Aramaic, Tibetan, even Tocharian! .....remember these edicts and rock carvings are all over India...each era and each conqueror left a bunch of them...Most Indian scholars in this field can translate at least ten languages...they have 'clubs' that do this for a hobby, and challenge each other on the most difficult inscriptions.. I trust Hassnain's opinion on these translations, and was proud when several scholars upheld his views..

And Gardner too knew the truth behind the ossuaries, having covered that ground extensively since the 1980's....

After the film, there was a one-hour follow-up discussion with several priests and historians. They all pointed out the major flaws in the research methods applied..and of course everyone of them rejected the entire story as hokum..

My personal view is that it's probable they could be correct. The tomb and the ossuaries could have been there in anticipation of uniting the family bones (at least some of them) ..whether they succeeded or not would depend on DNA results that seem no longer obtainable..

It was quite a buzz for me this past week joining in on the debates...
I see at the Tabor forum today they stated they are going to end the forum. Tabor can no longer participate due to time constraints, and the subject of his book has served its purpose.

The film was very well done. The research however, seems under heavy attack. And there is an overlooked tomb in Kashmir that may yet be full of surprises and new information for the world. :-)
Sue

[DVB]

Thanks, Sue. Some interesting insights there.

I'd suspected that the documentary would be rather one-sided in its selection and presentation of evidence; I'll be reviewing the book shortly, and am expecting the same there. It's good that the discussion (which I gather was chaired by the boss of the Discovery Channel) was able to make some points on the other side of the argument.

As has probably become fairly obvious, it wouldn't worry me if someone found the tomb, the ossuary, even the skeleton of the man Jesus. But I just have my doubts that this one is it...